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Nibiru
06-06-2013, 03:54 PM
If there was only one change you could suggest to help this 'reality' evolve for what you would consider "the better", what would that be? I personally have 2 main implementations that I feel would be necessary steps towards my ideal reality, so if you must list more than one change just please try to keep the list small :) I'm interested in seeing if we as a group may be able to come to an agreement here that would only involve a few 'key' augmentations.

I understand that many are of the belief that this reality in which we find ourselves is perfect as it is. Perhaps someday I may see this view myself, but as long as I continue to see people who are close to me suffer I'm not able to hold this view. It's easy to ignore suffering when it's at a distance but not so easy when it touches those who you love or when you experience it yourself. That being said, there are plenty of other threads discussing the view that everything is perfect as it is, and I would like to avoid this here. This thread is for those who see the imperfection of our current state and would like to discuss what may be done to help remedy the problem. I'm hoping to spark a philosophical discussion in the direction of 'positive' change/evolution, not a discussion as to why we don't need it. Even if you feel that all is as it should be, you can still use this thread to entertain the idea of change as a mere intellectual idea if you like. This thread can also be used for discussing the keys to creating an ideal 'new-world', for those who feel that changing ours is out of the question..

Nibiru
06-06-2013, 04:26 PM
The first 'Key' in my ideal reality would be free-energy. This would include much more that what many think of when they consider the term 'energy'. I'm not just speaking of the forms of energy that are sold in the energy markets currently. I'm also speaking of the need for all forms of consumption. This would include food, water, medicine, and even euphoriants/drugs. I'm not saying that we would no longer eat or consume, just that it would now only be for pleasure rather than necessity. This would then leave only the non-visible energies that we receive from nature and each other. As long as each of us has a complete connection to the 'Source Energy' there should be no more need for what some refer to as energy-vampirism. How hard wold it be to express a true Universal-Love if each of us was receiving it from the universe at all times already? I understand that some already are of this connection with Universal Spirit and exist in a state of 'free-energy' and for this I applaud you, I just hope that someday we may all have the opportunity. :) :) :)

When I discussed this idea with Sol a little while back, the question came up as to what would be used for exchange or trade if everything were free. Wouldn't this cause a stagnation in the cycles and prevent any further growth of our society and organism? I don't think that it would, and I actually believe that it would lead to faster growth or evolution. My suggestion for currency of the new world/reality would be Art. If all energy was free, all that would be left for us to exchange would be our constantly evolving artistic creations through the utilization of our now infinite resources :)

Nibiru
06-06-2013, 04:58 PM
The second Key would be a complete in-born and instilled sense of empathy. We would have complete and total empathy with all sentient beings that we interact with consciously. The rest would have to work on a sort of sliding scale. This would be similar to the idea of 'instant karma'. If you felt all that you put out into the universe instantly, I'm sure there would be some major changes taking place towards the way we treat one another and other lifeforms. Excluding masochistic individuals I don't see how this could not lead to less violence, greed, hate, or even indifference to suffering. To be clear I wouldn't exclude the masochists or sadists from my 'new-world', they would just have to work out their fun exclusively with other like minded individuals through a conscious-agreement :)

Nibiru
06-06-2013, 07:19 PM
My third and perhaps final Key would be Freedom. Complete and total freedom to do as you wish, as long as to do so you would NOT be forcefully imposing your will upon upon another being in any way without their conscious consent. Expression of your freedom would also have to comply with the first two 'Keys' for this idea to work efficiently.

This is all I can come up with for now. I suppose the next stage, after we're done brainstorming the 'Keys', would be to determine the necessary steps to make this 'dream in the works' a reality.

I'm looking forward to hearing other suggestions/ideas :)

solomon levi
06-10-2013, 08:42 PM
:) I wonder if Art would intend the three you mentioned. Of course this would be a special definition of Art...
living Artfully, appreciating Art, harmony, proportion, etc... just a thought. I'll contemplate this some more. :)

Nibiru
07-01-2013, 04:01 AM
Well since no one else seems to want to build with me on this concept, I've had to contemplate the idea myself. I began to wonder how we would handle the problem of overpopulation, considering that my Utopian fantasy would seem to seem to include the idea of immortality as a given when the other 'keys' are considered (at least for those who would choose a life without death). The best idea that I've been able to brain-storm would be this: Once this world or the new-world/reality was at a balanced population one would have to make the choice to reproduce. This would be a strictly conscious decision, unlike our current 'reality'. If one chose to reproduce, it would be at the cost of one's own life-force. If one were to decide to reproduce, it would be with the implication that your offspring would only mature as quickly as you aged. So with this variable in place, we would think a little more before making the choice to have a child... And once one decided that they had experienced all they wanted to experience, their final 'test' would be in raising their own death/child when they were ready to pass on.. If one wanted to continue to live and grow with their children they would have to work out a state of balance between themselves and their offspring. I also wouldn't mind agreements being made between those wishing to leave and those hoping to grow, in the instance of those who would choose to never reproduce but deciding they are ready to leave. The key here is choice, agreement, and balance.

Krisztian
07-01-2013, 05:36 AM
The only humble contribution I can make to this your thread Nibiru is to say that it reminds me of American psychologist Skinner's utopian novel called Walden Two. These days one can pick it up for a meager sum of $2 used.

Ghislain
07-01-2013, 11:30 AM
The road to hell is paved with good intentions

I don’t have the greatest faith in human nature looking back through the history of the
atrocities we have allowed to happen and looking at those that are still going on today.

I believe that mankind is generally weak and corrupt and if left to its own devices and
desires it will devolve into chaos rather than evolve into perfection.

If you remove all causes of conflict in the world today we will just create new
conflicts.

If a new world order (perhaps utopian) were created who would police it, who would
write the rules etc…I guarantee there will be those who disagree, will always want
more, will lead/follow others and conflict will ensue.

We make enough mess on this planet with the limited energy we have, imagine the
mess we could make of this world with free energy? I know many energy sources are
classed as pollutants, but if we had infinite clean energy then we would become the
pollutant.

Think of change like a game of chess; one move can lose you the game. There are
only sixty-four squares on a chess board and you can see them all. How many
fundamental parts make up life? more than sixty-four and many not that obvious.
Every change we make, no matter how small, is like playing Russian Roulette.

Before thinking of making a change, there is a marvelous platform where you can try
this out for yourself.

In a previous thread I posted a link to this platform, it’s called “The Game of Life” (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2848-Game-of-Life).

Give it a try and see what a little change can do.

Ghislain

Nibiru
07-01-2013, 02:59 PM
The only humble contribution I can make to this your thread Nibiru is to say that it reminds me of American psychologist Skinner's utopian novel called Walden Two. These days one can pick it up for a meager sum of $2 used.

Thanks Krisztian :) I read the little bit about this book that I could find on wikipedia. In the book, does this utopian society work out in the end or are there problems that arise out of the idea?

Nibiru
07-01-2013, 03:31 PM
Thanks for taking the time to respond Ghislain :)


I don’t have the greatest faith in human nature looking back through the history of the
atrocities we have allowed to happen and looking at those that are still going on today.

I believe that mankind is generally weak and corrupt and if left to its own devices and
desires it will devolve into chaos rather than evolve into perfection.

I agree completely and this is why I was hoping to find a few keys, that if implemented, could promote evolution over destruction.


If you remove all causes of conflict in the world today we will just create new
conflicts.

If a new world order (perhaps utopian) were created who would police it, who would
write the rules etc…I guarantee there will be those who disagree, will always want
more, will lead/follow others and conflict will ensue.

I don't really like the idea of rules myself and actually see many of the laws/rules that are currently in place as being the cause of several of our problems, rather than the cure. If the 'keys' that I mentioned above were part of our organism's inherent makeup, I would see no need for outside regulation. I think it would be difficult for anyone to ask for more, if everything was already freely given. All that would be left to ask for would be artistic expression, and an open-exit from the 'new reality' if one ever decided they were ready to leave. My idea of an 'open-exit' would be along the lines of owning a video game that you're able to save and turn-off or pause whenever you like, until the time that you're ready to turn the console back on and continue playing where you had left off.


We make enough mess on this planet with the limited energy we have, imagine the
mess we could make of this world with free energy? I know many energy sources are
classed as pollutants, but if we had infinite clean energy then we would become the
pollutant.

How so, are you saying that our art would become our pollution? If so, at least this type of pollution would be creative rather than destructive. I would see our growth as becoming something akin to a artistic-fractal, rather than a cancerous-pollution as in our current paradigm.


Think of change like a game of chess; one move can lose you the game. There are
only sixty-four squares on a chess board and you can see them all. How many
fundamental parts make up life? more than sixty-four and many not that obvious.
Every change we make, no matter how small, is like playing Russian Roulette.

Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that we attempt to implement these changes within our current paradigm, as the resistance to these new ideas would probably cause more harm than good in our present state. What I'm trying to build upon here, is how we could attempt to create a more harmonious reality in the future if a new 'program' or even a parallel or 'sub-program' were ever to be written. I'm not trying to change the world, that will happen on its own someday, I'm just looking to contemplate our collective dreams of a possible alternative someday..


Before thinking of making a change, there is a marvelous platform where you can try
this out for yourself.

In a previous thread I posted a link to this platform, it’s called “The Game of Life” (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2848-Game-of-Life).

Give it a try and see what a little change can do.

Ghislain

Thanks, I remember seeing this when you had posted it before. I'll try and get around to checking it out sometime soon.

Krisztian
07-01-2013, 06:37 PM
. . . . In the book, does this utopian society work out in the end or are there problems that arise out of the idea?

Skinner proposes solution to be behavioural reinforcements [in his social and cultural engineering model] that works like a well-oiled machine. . . . It's been at least 12-years since reading it, maybe others will know? I doubt knowing school of behavioralists he would have a spoiler in his own novel, an extension of his psychological ideas.

Krisztian
07-01-2013, 06:48 PM
Well since no one else seems to want to build with me on this concept, I've had to contemplate the idea myself. I began to wonder how we would handle the problem of overpopulation, considering that my Utopian fantasy would seem to seem to include the idea of immortality as a given when the other 'keys' are considered (at least for those who would choose a life without death). The best idea that I've been able to brain-storm would be this: Once this world or the new-world/reality was at a balanced population one would have to make the choice to reproduce. This would be a strictly conscious decision, unlike our current 'reality'. If one chose to reproduce, it would be at the cost of one's own life-force. If one were to decide to reproduce, it would be with the implication that your offspring would only mature as quickly as you aged. So with this variable in place, we would think a little more before making the choice to have a child... And once one decided that they had experienced all they wanted to experience, their final 'test' would be in raising their own death/child when they were ready to pass on.. If one wanted to continue to live and grow with their children they would have to work out a state of balance between themselves and their offspring. I also wouldn't mind agreements being made between those wishing to leave and those hoping to grow, in the instance of those who would choose to never reproduce but deciding they are ready to leave. The key here is choice, agreement, and balance.

Immortality, I mean physical one, is useless and even counterproductive to a society where people can't renew themselves and change. Physical death provides an 'out' for them to restart somewhat fresh. An escape from their cherished "image and identity" that keeps them prisoned in their own self-construct.

Ghislain
07-01-2013, 07:21 PM
Krisztian

I think Nibiru covered your last point when he said,


And once one decided that they had experienced all they wanted to experience, their final 'test' would be in raising their own death/child when they were ready to pass on.

Death, but prepared and determined by your own feelings and not by a pre-determined living decay.

Ghislain

zoas23
07-01-2013, 08:53 PM
If all energy was free, all that would be left for us to exchange would be our constantly evolving artistic creations through the utilization of our now infinite resources :)

The only idea I don't agree with is the idea that we need absolute free energy... and "infinite resources"... because, well... I don't think that such thing is possible... but I do agree with the rest of your theory/idea (I don't think we need anything different than what we already have, the change is, in my opinion, philosophical, but not really technological).

Having said such thing, I'm going to be travelling tomorrow and I don't have a lot of time right now... but I think you may enjoy reading about the POLITICAL ideas of Joseph Beuys.
He was very much into thinking politics from the point of view of art... and had the idea of expanning the idea of "art" to embrace mostly everything.
His main influence was alchemy.
And your views and his views are quite similar actually.
It is still interesting to watch some of his conferences... and notice one of the main problems that this idea has: a lot of people get very offended when they hear them! (and because of the most strange reasons.... because they are too conservative about what "art" should be, because the ideas sound "marxist", because the ideas don't sound "marxist".... and because of the most weird etceteras possible).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlfy4wqrlbw

Ilos
07-01-2013, 09:19 PM
Hey,
I think that the society collectively in the global link is, corrosive and no matter what we try, there are still more problems to appear, it is like its inevitable, like you hate itching but you like scratching your itchiness. Anyway as a human being with a human nature I think that, those problems seem to be whats driving us to move forward. Imagine life without problems, without pain, without darkness, everything works fine and well, everything is easy and calm. That would be like going to have some sleep and not sleeping at all but laying in your bed without a reason or purpose.
There are some things that we could do tho, which I think that some people are already doing it.
That is to find the balance of the two sides, Dark and Light and in between thees two phenomenons grasp the scales and removing the impurities and holding on the true and important aspects of life.
I don't believe that when we die life is going to be pure and easy and that our essence will remain always with our consciousnesses but I believe that the fire that drives us to move on will always remain, and in life or death it will still seem to go on and look for solutions on deciding how much big you want the fire to glow.

Ghislain
07-01-2013, 11:18 PM
I’m not sure if I fully understood Joseph Beuys’ concept of Art, but listening to him did make me
think; that art can be all encompassing not just aesthetically pleasing to the eyes, ears and other
senses we are aware of, but also to our psyche, inner and outer self in a connectedness with
everything that surrounds us without exclusion. So that everyone in everything they do should do it
as though they are the artist with the goal of making everything we do as aesthetically pleasing in
every way to all around us.

How long would an artist last if no one found anything aesthetically pleasing in his work, thus if a
politician were to treat his work as art it would have to be creative and aesthetically pleasing to his
constituents or he would lose their vote.

I chose a politician, but that could just as easily have been a factory worker or a doctor, a farmer or
sewage worker...just as long as we all appreciate the others art.

The problem is that not everyone is artistic or creative. Can everyone acquire such skills?

I copied the descriptions of the word ART from dictionary.com


1. The quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is
beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

2. The class of objects subject to aesthetic criteria; works of art collectively, as paintings, sculptures,
or drawings: a museum of art; an art collection. See fine art, commercial art.

3. A field, genre, or category of art: Dance is an art.

4. The fine arts collectively, often excluding architecture: art and architecture.

5. Any field using the skills or techniques of art: advertising art; industrial art.

I believe only No.1 gives the description I am thinking of 2, 3, 4 and 5 have boundaries, which I
believe is what Beuys is trying to break through; art should have no boundaries.

I would find it difficult to criticise Beuys’ ideas as I have never seen them in action, but as art stands
today the perceived aesthetic value is peculiar to the individual; we are not all the same.

Most people find flowers aesthetically pleasing, but do bees or do they just see them as a food source?

How could you bring an idea like this across all cultures?


Ghislain

Bel Matina
07-02-2013, 01:56 PM
The aim of our art is to create the living stone. Many speak of "building", but a living thing cannot be built; only dead things can be built. I think this bit of misguidance has been the root of many of the errors committed within our tradition in the last few centuries. A living thing must be nourished as a whole; some analysis of the parts can be helpful but the treatment must respect the integrity of the organism or it will be lethal.

Another error evidenced here that is typical of our tradition in the last few centuries is a bit of overreach. Before participating in our general reformation, be sure that it has been thoroughly effected within the domain of your "self"; that is, make sure the stone is firmly fixed in your own house before you bring it out into the world. This is not a "moral" exclusion, but a technical one: working with matters outside your immediate domain by necessity requires projection (I can think of exceptions, but they would require exceptional skill) and in that operation flaws in the stone will be communicated along with the desired tincture.

In short, as I like to say, just make the stone. When the time comes to reform the world at large, it will be clear and obvious and you will know what you need to do.

solomon levi
07-02-2013, 07:46 PM
The things i think of that would make real change are not practical. For ex, if everyone took full
responsibility for their lives, the world would be very different. How does one implement this, save to
start with oneself... and there it ends also. :)

Nibiru
07-03-2013, 02:51 PM
The only idea I don't agree with is the idea that we need absolute free energy... and "infinite resources"... because, well... I don't think that such thing is possible... but I do agree with the rest of your theory/idea (I don't think we need anything different than what we already have, the change is, in my opinion, philosophical, but not really technological).

Thanks zoas23 :) You could very well be correct about the concept of 'free energy' and this was just what I considered to be a given if a state of perfection was ever to be reached. I'm not sure if this idea could become reality or not but if we cant have free-energy perhaps the basic necessities(food, clothing, shelter, and medicine) would be a good place to start. Change starts with a concept or idea and overtime becomes material. So perhaps over time, the philosophical(nurture) contemplation will lead to the evolution of our physical/technological(nature) being..

I'll check out the video you linked soon and let you know what I think...

Nibiru
07-03-2013, 03:19 PM
Anyway as a human being with a human nature I think that, those problems seem to be whats driving us to move forward. Imagine life without problems, without pain, without darkness, everything works fine and well, everything is easy and calm. That would be like going to have some sleep and not sleeping at all but laying in your bed without a reason or purpose.
There are some things that we could do tho, which I think that some people are already doing it.
That is to find the balance of the two sides, Dark and Light and in between thees two phenomenons grasp the scales and removing the impurities and holding on the true and important aspects of life.


Thanks Ilos :) I agree that for one to recognize the light you must know the darkness, or to appreciate joy one must know pain. Keep in mind that the rotation of light/dark is what we've come to know with our current paradigm. I'm not sure that this is the way it has to always be; to destroy and rebuild or to die and grow. I can see the potential of continual growth or joy without the need for death or pain. Again I'm visualizing reality from the perspective of a fractal that continues to grow with each level/branch being greater than the previous. I'm not considering these ideas from the view of cycles/repetitions, as in our current state. If the universe is infinite, then there should be plenty of room for such a concept of continual and ever-expanding bliss.

To stick with this paradigm, I would be happy to see a portion of the darkness removed or transmuted. My main concerns are violence without conscious agreement and greed. Maybe we could keep the balance by replacing the negative aspects of pain with a more intense sense of boredom when one is not creating. I can recall as a child how much I hated the feeling of boredom, and what a great motivating force it can be in the creation process.

Nibiru
07-03-2013, 03:32 PM
I’m not sure if I fully understood Joseph Beuys’ concept of Art, but listening to him did make me
think; that art can be all encompassing not just aesthetically pleasing to the eyes, ears and other
senses we are aware of, but also to our psyche, inner and outer self in a connectedness with
everything that surrounds us without exclusion. So that everyone in everything they do should do it
as though they are the artist with the goal of making everything we do as aesthetically pleasing in
every way to all around us.

Well said :)


How long would an artist last if no one found anything aesthetically pleasing in his work, thus if a
politician were to treat his work as art it would have to be creative and aesthetically pleasing to his
constituents or he would lose their vote.

and this is where the motivation for growth would come from, the concern with making your art/life valuable to at-least somebody out-there..


I chose a politician, but that could just as easily have been a factory worker or a doctor, a farmer or
sewage worker...just as long as we all appreciate the others art.

The problem is that not everyone is artistic or creative. Can everyone acquire such skills?

In an economy completely based on art, I would think that everyone would be able to acquire such skills. Our new-found empathy would also motivate us as a society to help, guide, and teach the less artistic rather than criticize them.

Nibiru
07-03-2013, 03:48 PM
The aim of our art is to create the living stone. Many speak of "building", but a living thing cannot be built; only dead things can be built. I think this bit of misguidance has been the root of many of the errors committed within our tradition in the last few centuries. A living thing must be nourished as a whole; some analysis of the parts can be helpful but the treatment must respect the integrity of the organism or it will be lethal.

Hello Bel Matina :) Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'm not trying to build a stone. The context in which I was using the word was more akin to building upon concepts or ideas, as in a philosophical discussion or debate. Like the hypothesis before the experiment. You build the garden area before you plant the seed, and you plan the plot before you go to work...



Another error evidenced here that is typical of our tradition in the last few centuries is a bit of overreach. Before participating in our general reformation, be sure that it has been thoroughly effected within the domain of your "self"; that is, make sure the stone is firmly fixed in your own house before you bring it out into the world. This is not a "moral" exclusion, but a technical one: working with matters outside your immediate domain by necessity requires projection (I can think of exceptions, but they would require exceptional skill) and in that operation flaws in the stone will be communicated along with the desired tincture.


I was of the opinion that such conversations and contemplation were an integral part of the process of preparing and 'fixing of our stone'. Ideas built upon dreams until the volatile obtains a degree of fixity.

Nibiru
07-03-2013, 11:37 PM
Hi Sol :) I hope you enjoyed your birthday yesterday!!


The things i think of that would make real change are not practical. For ex, if everyone took full
responsibility for their lives, the world would be very different.

People will be able to take full responsibility once our birthright of complete and total freedom is honored by those who currently claim to be "in-power." From what I can see, the only way that this form of freedom could be protected for ALL rather than a few would have to be through a true and total empathy. Which btw, would also lead to positive/joyful feelings and emotions when that is what you're projecting outwardly towards others and the world.


How does one implement this, save to
start with oneself... and there it ends also. :)

Well being that this discussion is not very 'practical' from our current standpoint, I would have to say that the only way I could conceive of achieving this would be through the finding and then using of The Stone. I can only hope that someday soon IT will be discovered, if it hasn't already been. I can say that I've been noticing a lot of changes recently, at least in my version of reality, so I feel intuitively that some of us may be close.. Wouldn't it be nice if once found, the method and means of projection could be based on a group collaboration rather than a solo-effort project? And yes, what better place to start with the implementation of change than with oneself. :)

Nibiru
07-04-2013, 12:32 AM
In case anyone was wondering what I was attempting to portray through my vision of creation being likened to a fractal, here are a couple of examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSyFwh93snk&list=PLJuOyWJcf-NywC-UI-bn6UaLEbFMF0GrW&index=3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSyFwh93snk&list=PLJuOyWJcf-NywC-UI-bn6UaLEbFMF0GrW&index=3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOLTCBTex-s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOLTCBTex-s

solomon levi
07-04-2013, 04:56 AM
Perhaps this is just a discrepancy of words, but if freedom is to be given, it won't be any different than
giving a prison... if people are waiting to be given freedom, they are still pawns, not masters/Selves/responsible.
I don't think freedom can be given... it must be realized that we are already always free to do what we want.
People just want small/limited things right now... people want to be taken care of for a price, thus the world
we live in where people and resources are bought and sold. This is what people are choosing with the freedom
they already possess.
I think a lot has to do with education. People could be re-educated, for example to be responsible, to see that they are
already free, to know that there are cures for cancer, better forms of government, etc. This is already happening.
Some of us would like to see it happen quicker. :)

Nibiru
07-04-2013, 08:16 PM
Happy Independence Day!!!! :rolleyes:


Perhaps this is just a discrepancy of words, but if freedom is to be given, it won't be any different than
giving a prison... if people are waiting to be given freedom, they are still pawns, not masters/Selves/responsible.

Ok, I changed my above statement from:

People will be able to take full responsibility when they are given total freedom.
to:

People will be able to take full responsibility once our birthright of complete and total freedom is honored by those who currently claim to be "in-power."








I don't think freedom can be given... it must be realized that we are already always free to do what we want.

Try telling that to the millions who are currently locked-up in prison for drug-laws, victimless-crimes, as political prisoners, or the children who are born or sold into the sexual slave trade and worse. Not to mention the other examples of oppression riddled throughout our history.

I own a car but as you know all too well from living with me, neither one of us were free to travel in it. Hell with the car removed from the equation, we couldn't even walk 5 blocks from the bar to our apartment carrying the beers that we had just purchased without facing the fear of being incarcerated..







People just want small/limited things right now... people want to be taken care of for a price, thus the world
we live in where people and resources are bought and sold. This is what people are choosing with the freedom
they already possess.

Who are these "people" that only want small and limited things? Complete freedom with the 'golden rule' being our only law sounds pretty big to me. Most people aren't even aware that true freedom exists. The tiger raised in a zoo has no knowledge of the Savanna from which it's ancestors came. I'm sure it believes it is free, but that doesn't mean that in reality it isn't a slave or in prison. The tiger doesn't want anything more than its small and limited cage, because it has been conditioned by its masters to believe that it is free.

I feel that we are seeing this from quite opposite perspectives. You're claiming(correct me if I'm wrong) that we are all already free but choose to stay enslaved. While I feel that this illusion of freedom is what we're manipulated into believing from the time they begin to socialize us. Socialization to take our freedoms initially, and then further socialization to convince us that our freedoms were never stolen in the first place. And for those who begin to wake-up and ask for or demand their freedoms be returned, we have imprisonment, further socialization, and in extreme cases even murder. This is what keeps us complacent, the beLIEf that we're living in a "free society". Because we believe that we are free, we continue to play our roles as finely trained/lubed gears in their machine. We feel that we are free because we're able to choose our schools, careers, relationships, and retirements. While the truth of the matter is that many of us would actually be quite lucky to even have a single choice in any of the examples that I just mentioned above. In reality we're all stuck playing the same old monopoly game over and over again while we continue to utalize their fake-paper-money as makeshift blindfolds blocking the Truth from our eyes in the hopes that we may sleep better at night, and this is exactly how they like it.

I on the other hand believe that we should be free and are born free, but from the moment of birth until the day we die the power-hungry parasites do everything in their power to siphon that freedom away from us. The deceitful, cruel, and manipulative means at which they enforce this partially self-imposed and cooperative-slavery are many and well documented.






I think a lot has to do with education. People could be re-educated, for example to be responsible, to see that they are
already free, to know that there are cures for cancer, better forms of government, etc. This is already happening.
Some of us would like to see it happen quicker. :)

I completely agree with you here, but for this to have any effect will also require the reeducation and/or removal of the current power-hungry 'slave-masters' as well.

Ilos
07-05-2013, 12:17 AM
What about this one Nibiru..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmN2RL4VJsE&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL2C2FBAB7E002EE3E

Nibiru
07-05-2013, 03:51 PM
Having said such thing, I'm going to be travelling tomorrow and I don't have a lot of time right now... but I think you may enjoy reading about the POLITICAL ideas of Joseph Beuys.
He was very much into thinking politics from the point of view of art... and had the idea of expanning the idea of "art" to embrace mostly everything.
His main influence was alchemy.
And your views and his views are quite similar actually.
It is still interesting to watch some of his conferences... and notice one of the main problems that this idea has: a lot of people get very offended when they hear them! (and because of the most strange reasons.... because they are too conservative about what "art" should be, because the ideas sound "marxist", because the ideas don't sound "marxist".... and because of the most weird etceteras possible).


I finally got around to watching the video you posted. I agree with most of what he had to say in the talk and your right his ideas were eerily similar to what I've been envisioning lately. I don't know what to think about the audience's reaction to his talk. The questions almost seemed as if they were scripted, what do you think? Thanks again for sharing the video :)

Nibiru
07-05-2013, 03:55 PM
Ilos, I enjoyed it. :)

I'm a fan of the "Spirit Science" series. Was there something specific from the video that you wanted me to address?

solomon levi
07-05-2013, 10:01 PM
Nibiru said, "Try telling that to the millions who are currently locked-up in prison for drug-laws, victimless-crimes, as political prisoners, or the children who are born or sold into the sexual slave trade and worse. Not to mention the other examples of oppression riddled throughout our history."

Well, because they won't hear it doesn't make it less true. :) or does it? :)
Like i said, people have to realise it... i can't tell them... like i said, it's impractical that it will happen. people have to ask the right questions to see answers like this.
For me, asking govt to be nice is the wrong question. It will never happen. That question makes this reality, the current situation.
People need to be educated of that imo.

You said, "Who are these "people" that only want small and limited things? Complete freedom with the 'golden rule' being our only law sounds pretty big to me."
I didn't mean freedom was small. I mean most people aren't asking for that... that is, they're not educated as to what it is. They think freedom is something someone else will give them.
That thinking, that question, creates this present reality... where others have power over others... the power is given away in the question.
Most people are asking questions about money, sex, jobs, possessions... don't you think?


" because it has been conditioned by its masters to believe that it is free"
Yes... and they can get free just like i did if they wanted to. To me, reality reflects the question... it's not that i think people aren't asking -
i look at the world, at what is, and know it as the perfect reflection of the collective questions. :) So if reality is war, money, lack, etc... that tells you the questions people are asking...
their intent. Reality changes when the question changesFor ex, will Egypt get rid of their governors completely, or will they just exchange them for other ones? Who is asking to be truly free? Who wants that?
Not many... it's a big responsibility. How many fully responsible people do you know that don't blame anyone else for their reality or anything in it? Cuz that's what it takes to change (from my experience). We
cannot change what we don't take responsibility for.


My freedom is not the illusion of freedom. Mine is the blank slate on which all this is written... that is the freedom we choose to "corrupt", to condition, for good or bad.
That freedom is always there under the conditions for anyone who seeks it. That is the freedom i mean, not the freedom the govt gives us. :)
If there were no bad guys, our parents will still socialize us, condition us according to theiur wisdom/beliefs...our peers, the neighbors kids... everyone we meet as babys trains/programs us
whether intentional or not. You can't get away from that... if you tried to, you would really ruin that baby imo... it depends on the baby's genetics and parents... if the parents are
super-wise, they can have a baby ready for a avatar-ish environment. But most baby's are born to genetics that NEED to have other experiences first. To try to plant
this baby in a soil to unlike itself will strangle it, you klnow?
So everything is happening the only way it can from my view. And if you change that, that is also what's happening the only way it can.
Such a stoic view gives my soul peace. It is a view, just like yours... no better or less... just my soil and yours i guess :)
Make sure you're not saying everyone should have your soil, your dream...
I have faith in everyone's soul. I am here if they ask the questions of me, otherwise i love them as unconditionally as i can, without seeing they are wrong or less or even asleep
is a judgement, a duality, a hierarchy, which is this present reality :) So we have to change ourselves first... re-educate ourselves that hierarchies don't work. If we know
that is true, we will not impose on anyone else, not on friends, neighbors or governments. :) I know, it sucks. It's not my choice... it's what i see without the me. :)
My choice is to be the me or not, or do both. :)

Ghislain
07-06-2013, 01:24 AM
There are companies and families that could weald a lot of power on our tiny ball
of existence, but are they the THEY we are always talking about when we mention those
that seem to be in control and manipulating our lives?

Is anyone manipulating us or are THEY just a part of the whole ecosystem that WE live
in?

Are THEY really just US? Are we just wannabe THEY?

Below are just a few of these:

De Beers: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Beers) Diamonds

Walmart: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walmart) Retail & Groceries

The Walt Disney Company: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_of_media_ownership) Media (yes media! Check it out)

ExxonMobil: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil) Oil & Gas

McGraw Hill Financial: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGraw-Hill_Financial) Market Indexers. (McGraw Hill can make or break a company with their market reports)

Archer Daniels Midland: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Daniels_Midland)
Bunge Limited: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunge_Limited)
Cargill: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargill)
Glencore International: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glencore_International)
Louis Dreyfus Group: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Dreyfus_Group[/url)
World Grain Market

These are just a few of the major players. Click on the links and check out their stat's

Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceupbin/2011/10/22/the-147-companies-that-control-everything/) put together a list of the 147 companies that control 40% of the worlds wealth.
They say that this can be expanded to 737 companies that control around 80%. The
author points out that many of these companies have interconnectedness for financial
security.

Is there anything stopping us entering this market other than the normal human trait of “protect what’s yours”?


”whether you believe you can do something or not, you are right” Henry Ford

In discussions I would love to see a rule where, when someone says “they” they then go
on to inform us WHO “they” are.

I believe we blame “they” because we don’t want to believe THEY could be “us”.

A guy by the name of Joseph Ohayon won American INSIGHT’S 2013 Free Speech Award
for his film, ”Crossroads: Labor Pains of a New Worldview” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n1p9P5ee3c), an interesting film and IMO a
must see for the subject of this thread. The film focuses on the need for an increasingly
interdependent world view.


Video of Ohayon’s Acceptance Speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcLRd4GTl9Q)



Nibiru: In reality we're all stuck playing the same old monopoly game over and over again

Not my exact words, but exactly my feelings...the whole reason I search is to find reason
for this monopoly/monotony game. Perhaps we should pull the plug and put the game
away? Lol We would with any other monotonous repetitive game.

Or maybe there are some aspects of the game we actually enjoy, haven’t found yet or need to be changed!

Ghislain

Andro
07-06-2013, 07:20 AM
In discussions I would love to see a rule where, when someone says “they” they then go on to inform us WHO “they” are.

Just as much as when someone refers to 'god' in a "discussion" (i.e. 'as god intended', etc...) - I'd like to know which 'god' they're referring to :)

But more 'pragmatically' to your point, Ghislain, here is a section from an online article, called The 3 City States That Control The World (http://blogdogcicle.blogspot.ca/2013/05/the-3-city-states-that-control-world.html) (click the link for full article).


3 City States that control the world, and their roles:

City of London - FINANCE: Receives taxes from their subjects (slaves) in Canada and the United States. They design and control our financial and banking systems.

Vatican City - RELIGION: The Pope wants to merge all the religions into one, which is absolute nonsense. The Pope broke off from the truth (confusingly referred to as The 'Eastern Church' or 'Eastern Orthodox Church' or 'Orthodox Church' or 'Orthodox') about 1000 years ago.

Washington DC - MILITARY: Death camps and stacks of black plastic coffins that can hold six to ten bodies each, are piled high in a long train-like fashion, as far as the eye can see, in the United States, today.

These three are sovereign, corporate entities that are not part of the countries they are located in.

The "CITY" in London

The "City", also known as the "square mile" an area of 677 hectares in London is just like the Vatican City in Rome their own state. The City-State, pays no tax, has its own courts, its own laws, their own flag, their own private police at about 2,000 men, and a night population that underestimates 9000 inhabitants.

Here are the Bank of England, a privately owned institution which is not subject to regulation by the British Parliament, and in fact is a sovereign world power. Moreover, Lloyds of London (insurance), London Stock Exchange (stock exchange) Fleet Streets newspapers and publishing, offices in all British banks, offices in 385 foreign banks, and 70 U.S. banks.

Internationally they use the "Crown Princess" as a symbol of power but the real power belongs to the bankers and not the royal house. It is very difficult to gain an insight into the persons who effectively control the Bank of England. A name that leaked is Rothschild.

The "City of London" is an economic entity which is legally separate from England and in control of all lawyers and banks across the world - including the Federal Reserve in the USA! The "City" is also the English seat of the world's Freemasonry with the United Grand Lodge of England as the center...

Washington, District of Columbia

The flag of the Washington District of Columbia has three red stars. One for each city state in the empire. This empire rule the world economically through London's "City", militarily by the District of Columbia, and spiritually by the Vatican. The Constitution for the District of Columbia operates under a tyrannical Roman law known as the lex fori and has no similarities to the U.S. Constitution...

The Vatican in Rome

Vatican's assets include massive investments by Rothschild in the UK, France and the U.S., billions of shares in oil and weapons companies like Shell and General Electric, Bethlehem Steel. The Vatican is the world's largest owner of private property and its gold reserves are stored by the Bank of England and the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank... The flag in Washington's District of Columbia has 3 red stars, each symbolizing a city state within the three city empire. The three city empire consists of Washington D.C., London, and Vatican City. London is the corporate center of the three city states and controls the world economically. Washington's District of Columbia city state is in charge of the military, and the Vatican offers spiritual guidance. The constitution of the district of Columbia operates under a tyrannical roman law known as lex fori, which in no way resembles the U.S. constitution.

When congress passed the act of 1871, it created a separate corporate government for the District of Columbia. This allowed the District of Columbia to operate as a corporation outside the constitution.

If you take a moment to study some signed treaties and charters between the United States and Britain, you will find that the United States has always been a British crowned Colony. In 1606, King James (yes, the King James who revised the bible) signed the charter of Virginia. The charter granted Americas British forefathers a license to settle and colonize America. The charter also guaranteed future kings and queens of England would have sovereign authority over all citizens and colonized land in America.


This is one of the more 'popular' theories. Aliens not included :)

Ilos
07-06-2013, 11:16 AM
Ilos, I enjoyed it. :)

I'm a fan of the "Spirit Science" series. Was there something specific from the video that you wanted me to address?

Yes, one way of implementing change to a better way of life.
The blame is on no one but you, us.
To be loved all you gota do is implement the art of love.
:)

Ghislain
07-08-2013, 03:05 PM
In answering Androgynus’ post I don’t want to go off topic, but I believe there is importance to be
given to the route that brought us to the here-and-now.

I’m sure everyone is aware of the Bush and Blair incident when the mike was left open at the table.
I’m not interested in what they were saying, but the way Bush just sat and ate while Blair seemed to
grovel around him. This didn’t seem like two people talking with mutual respect, which you might
expect if there was an ancient pact of some kind between England and America.

Video of Bush & Blair with mike left open (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoN8iF-543U)

Transcript: Bush and Blair's unguarded chat (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5188258.stm)

The Flag


Following World War I (1914–18), a number of designs were advanced for a flag for the District of
Columbia. Among those submitted in February 1924 to the Evening Star newspaper was a white flag
bearing two red horizontal stripes and three blue five-pointed stars. The designer, Charles Dunn,
based his design on the personal coat of arms of George Washington, which was similar but had red
rowels (sharp-pointed disks at the ends of spurs) instead of blue stars. The Washington family arms
date to 16th-century Sulgrave, England, but the intended symbolism of the design and colours is
unknown.

The coat of arms of the Washington family can be seen in stained glass at Selby Abbey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selby_Abbey) North Yorkshire, England.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Washington_coat_of_arms.jpg/180px-Washington_coat_of_arms.jpg

There is no history of origin of this coat of arms.

Check out the Abbey, especially the money being spent on the restoration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selby_Abbey#Restoration) and who is paying.

Selby Abbey is an Anglican parish church

The word "Anglican" originates in ecclesia anglicana, a Medieval Latin phrase dating to at least 1246
meaning the "English Church”

The Anglican Church has a membership currently estimated at around 80 million members
worldwide, the Anglican Communion is the third largest Christian communion in the world, after the
Roman Catholic Church with 1.2 billion members and the Eastern Orthodox Churches with an
estimated 225–300 million adherents.

The Abbey also possesses one of the world’s finest Tree of Jesse, however this is not mentioned in
the wiki article of the same name. The Tree of
Jesse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Jesse) is a depiction in art of the ancestors of Christ.

http://www.selbyabbey.org.uk/wpimages/wpbd554623_05.jpg http://www.selbyabbey.org.uk/wpimages/wp164c6163_05.jpg


Now looking at the roots of the American forefathers, they start off with British influence,

Abraham Lincoln, roots, England

Samuel Lincoln Sr. Born 1619-1690 Born Hingham, Norfolk, England.

John Adams, roots, England

Henry Adams, Jr. (1609 - 1676) Born Barton St. David, Somerset, England

Thomas Jefferson roots, Wales

John Jefferson. (1630-?) Born Gwynedd, Wales.

but this changes over the years...I only searched the first three...and Abraham Lincoln
Because I liked him :). For instance Franklin D. Roosevelt had Dutch origins.

We only have to go back 20 generations and we are into the millions of descendants.
If one were to search deep enough I am sure we could uncover links to each other.

The Vatican City

Note: Vatican City was established as an independent state in 1929 by the Lateran Treaty.

Many people talk of the vast wealth of The Vatican City, however it does have expenditures
as well as income.


• revenues: $355.5 million (2008)
• expenditures: $356.8 million (2008) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Vatican_City)

Of the four major religions Christianity has the largest following, but many who class themselves as
Christians are not practicing Christians and just want some form of classification.

Christianity 2,000–2,200m
Islam 1,570–1,650m
Hinduism 828–1,000m
Buddhism 400–500m

If we take the upper estimate of Christians this only represents 28.5% of the worlds
population. Then take into account that many Christian organisations do not see the pope as
their head, outside of the Catholics other Christian groups have no allegiance with the pope
and with the growing controversy of recent scandals within the Catholic Church their
numbers are most likely shrinking as we speak, what sort of influence does the Vatican
have over world opinion?


The point I am trying to make is that we can see conspiracy in everything, but delve a little
deeper and we find it has come about by social evolution.

I am not saying there are not people out there that weald a lot of influence, but they got there
through the normal routes that any one of us may take given the chance.

Try having power without using it!

There are many theories, but which are we to believe? Androgynus a lot of what you posted
comes from a blog...where did those bloggers get their info etc...etc.

Human nature is to get above the next person or at least equal to them. There are those who
strive hard, those who want the easy life and those that don’t have much choice, but all see
those who have more as cheats and manipulators.

To bring about change it has to be implemented across the board, once the change is
suggested it will immediately find opposition from those that won’t benefit or may find it
detrimental to their current status quo. That is the nature of the human race so while thinking
about changes you would like to see, be realistic as to the effort required to see them changes
through.

As an example if we take the Kings and Queens...the hereditary nature in which their
positions are passed on. People get up in arms because of it, but what would happen if these
Royals called their subjects to arms to quell any rebelion...would they still command an
army?

Because the Royals try to fit into the democratic society people start to look at them as weak
parasites, but they forget that their forefathers won that position through might. (just another
point of view and an option open to anyone who can gather an army).

Sol talks of freedom...I consider myself an inhabitant of a ball we call a planet, there are those that have
come together to force people to abide by their rules...I see this as any other obstacle in life - it could be a
river to cross or a mountain to climb, and laws are barriers placed there by other human beings - I am free
and just have to avoid the interuptions of those that would impose their laws on me...we are all free; well, as
free as one can be stuck on a tiny ball in the middle of a vast universe.

Ghislain

Krisztian
07-08-2013, 03:47 PM
The ultimate real-estate is found inside each of us. 'To truly implement change' is to take away all of the distractions many of the below listed companies, "royalty", families, authorities, celebrities, etc. swing front of our noses. 'Many are called, but few listen' however, so it is not the fault of the Powers-That-Be that control remains. They just know human nature well.

One can easily have a joyous and abundant life regardless of what the authorities say about 'global recession', overpopulation, pollution, or whatever else. One just needs to listen to the true real-estate owners.

zoas23
07-09-2013, 01:54 AM
I finally got around to watching the video you posted. I agree with most of what he had to say in the talk and your right his ideas were eerily similar to what I've been envisioning lately. I don't know what to think about the audience's reaction to his talk. The questions almost seemed as if they were scripted, what do you think? Thanks again for sharing the video :)

I've just arrived from my trip to Brazil (it end up being longer than I expected, but I visited more cities).

I posted the video by Beuys because what you wrote made me remember his ideas... and I thought that his ideas may help you to see your own ideas from a different perspective. The video, of course, is not good enough to understand the whole thing that Beuys was doing (or trying to do), but it's a good introduction.

What I do like about Beuys is that he wasn't doing what most Utopians do... which is inventing and describing a perfect system that can only exist as a fiction in our current world.

Then agin, Beuys' system had a HUGE problem: Beuys himself! :(
He managed to become one of the key artists of his times... and quite often he became a guru-like character in the worst sense of the word "guru".... and quite often he convinced a lot of people to get into collective projects and then he received most of the credit. Well, he was very good creating a cult of personality... but the good thing about his ideas is that the "cult of personality" can be put aside and the ideas remain the same, because they were not based on his personality.

I don't think the questions were scripted... but I think the questions are very related to the context of the conference: Beuys and America had a very complex relationship.

Beuys was a soldier during WWII, a German soldier. After WWII, he became an artist and spent his life creating art that had the intention of "healing". His art was extremely against every idea that Nazism had...
But in the USA it was hard for him to avoid being considered a "former Nazi soldier" (even if he devoted his life to anti-militarism, freedom, art, healing the wounds of the war and so on). It was quite absurd to perceive him as a "Nazi", since he was doing something that was absolutely opposed to Nazism and any form of totalitarism, but the fact that he had been a German soldier during WWII was not easy to stomach for the American audience (his situation reminds me a lot of the situation of Ernst Jünger, who had also been a German soldier and after WWII he was considered a "Nazi writer" for a very long time... by people who didn't have the time to check what was he writing about... probably the best essays ever written against Nazism).

And then, Beuys belonged to a generation of European artists that was facing a very new situation: after WWII, for the first time in the history of the Occidental World, Europe was no longer the main center of the arts, the center had moved to the USA and the European artists had a tense relationship with this situation.

The first time Beuys visited America, he did it for a performance that was called "I like America and America likes me". The name of the performance was mostly a reference to the hostile context: Beuys didn't like the USA at all and the Americans didn't like Beuys either.
The performance mostly involved living in an American Art Gallery with a wild American Coyote for a week... and trying to find out if Beuys and the Coyote could become "friends" and learn how to like, trust and protect each other.

A short explanation of his ideas would be:
Whilst he was a professor at the Fine Arts University in Germany, his class received more students than the University allowed... Beuys managed to keep this situation for some time, but finally the University told him that he was not allowed to keep his classes "open to everyone" as Beuys wanted them to be.
So he became the leader of a student's strike that lead the authorities to dismiss Beuys... and after being dismissed he kept on teaching for free to everyone who wanted art classes next to the University.

He was doing such thing because of many reasons, but the main one was that he had arrived to a very interesting idea that became the first step to his "extended definition of art".
His idea was that teaching art was part of what Art is about, that the teacher was an Artist and that when he was teaching, he was making Art. Quite often he kept the blackboards he used in his classes and exhibited them in museums next to his "conventional" works of art. The blackboards with the chalk writings were a testimonial of the classes. The First Futurist Manifesto, by Marinetti, included this phrase: "a roaring motor car which seems to run on machine-gun fire, is more beautiful than the Victory of Samothrace".
Beuys certainly didn't think like that, but he probably thought that the chalkboard that was used in an Art Class is as good as Rafael's School of Athens... and both of them are Art.

When Beuys was invited to participate at the Documenta 5 exhibition (1972), he was given a room to exhibit there whatever he wanted (he was, by then, one of the most important artists of the world, at least for the Art Status Quo). Instead of exhibiting a work of art, he simply placed a sign that said: "Bureau for the Organisation of Direct Democracy". And then he placed two chairs, a table... and on the table he placed a chemical flask containing a rose:

http://www.iniref.org/beuys.rose.png http://www.essogallery.com/web%20images/Portraits/Beuys.jpg

The audience was invited to sit on the chair and talk with Beuys about.... mostly the same thing that you've asked: "what can we do to help this 'reality' evolve for what you would consider the better?".
This conversation was, for Beuys, a work of Art.

An important part of the "corpus" of the works by Beuys was propaganda posters (they were always posters that had a title that explained their meaning and worked as "propaganda" for a better world). I've placed above two of those posters: "The Rose of Direct Democracy" on the left and "We can't do it without the Rose" on the right.

It's incredibly interesting, at least for me, that the conversation was taking place next to a chemical vessel containing a rose. That was a powerful symbol that had lots of meanings. It had an obvious alchemical symbolism (which isn't quite strange, since Beuys was very open about the fact that Alchemy was his main inspiration as an artist)... but it also had a very basic and "mundane" symbolism, which is that science, technology, knowledge, etc had to be used to respect and protect nature and create something beautiful.
So talking about how to improve society, thinking about it, sharing the ideas with other people, educating, creating "propaganda" for a better world and doing something about it... all those things were cosidered "art" by Beuys.

For the Documenta 7 exhibition, Beuys managed to raise funds for his work of art called: "7000 Oaks – City Forestation Instead of City Administration". What he did is placing 7000 basalt stones all over the city of Kassel... and then he asked the people of the city to organize themselves as volunteers to plant an Oak tree next to each basalt stone. Planting a tree was considered a "work of art" and the volunteers were "artists" whilst they were doing it.

Another of his works of Art was printing several shopping bags with the phrase "How we can overcome the Dictatorship of the Parties" and a graphic explaining his ideas about Direct Democracy. He distributed these bags after a Labor's Day Demonstration and invited those who were interested to sweep the trash that the demonstration organized by different political parties had produced and then exhibited the trash next to the sweep at a museum:

http://narratingwaste.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/beuys-sweeping-up2.jpg

And next to this work, Beuys created a conversation with the audience about Direct Democracy and how to create a better society without expecting the political parties to do it.
There is a very basic alchemical symbolism there... it's not much more complicated than asking: "expecting freedom, we have organized ourselves in a way that is creating this nigredo. How can we use what we have to turn it into an albus?". Again, cleaning the city and discussing about how to create something better was considered a work of art and the ones who were participating in the action were considered artists creating art.
A very similar work of art was created by him when he invited several people to clean the trash a forest with sweeps and then distributing a poster of the action with the same title he used for the bags ("How we can overcome the Dictatorship of the Parties").

One of his works I like the most is titled "The Revolution is us" and it's simply a Propaganda Poster that has a photo of him walking.

I really love the way in which he mixed the ideas of education, art, alchemy and political action; always having the aim of creating better living conditions.

I didn't manage to explain all his ideas (actually, I didn't explain most of them because the post would take several pages and it won't be too interesting since it is better to read the original source rather than my explanation written in a bad English! :p )... but a lot of his views remind me of what you were saying.

Andro
12-22-2013, 07:03 AM
On the topic of 'How To Implement Change', here is an interesting perspective.

I'm not fully supporting pinning responsibility for our current state of affairs to one group exclusively, however, passing from one state to another requires a MEDIUM (Hermetic Principle/Golden Chain).

The guy in the video below discusses this 'Medium' and focuses on it as the prime (or even only) cause of our the global situation.

I may have posted this video before, sorry if it's a repeat post... But see and decide for yourselves...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPs12JSigS8

Ghislain
12-23-2013, 06:06 AM
Ben sounds a little disturbed by the laws, the people enforcing them, those making
them, but he does not come up with his alternative.

We hear people like Ben every day, trying to sound clever, but if he is so clever what
would he put in the place of all these things that have him so exasperated?

I know there are those here who would advocate anarchy...I'm up for that to an extent
as I don't think people are stupid, we can work our shit out so to speak, but I do have
a little trepidation as my life network is built around the less than perfect system we
have.

One thing I would change in all democratic societies is the manifesto policy.

I work for a franchised company, if we dont meet our target specified in the contract
we get fined, and they are not small fines either.

I used to have my own company and I subcontracted work from larger companies, I
was under this same set of guidelines; don't reach your target, get fined...simple's :)

Political parties get elected on their manifestos; they sell themselves to the public on
these. I think a system of judging how well they are following their manifesto, a set of
levels, a percentage or target which they should be deemed responsible to effect.

Should they not achieve these levels then the party itself should be fined, large fines;
there should be a water line that if they cross it they have to go to the people for re-
election.

At the moment we have a coalition government, any party wanting to form a coalition
should realise they too are bound by the same contract; might make them think twice
about getting into bed with the enemy.


With that in place politicians may start telling some truths in their run up to elections,
parties that are crap will go bankrupt, individuals who don't pull their weight will have
their peers to answer to...after all, they are under contract; to the people!

A quango would be set up to manage this; these would be voluntary positions for the
likes of Judges, Engineers, Doctors, Accountants and, of course, a fair proportion of Laypeople.
The names would go into a hat and be picked like the national lottery. This would not be
a paid position, but at the same time no one will be out of pocket; all expenses would
be paid. A group of full time paid clerical staff would be available to them for any
paperwork needed and such.

We the people are judged by a jury of our peers, why then should the government not be?

Not as bold as anarchy, but it may be a start...if someone put that in their manifesto I
would vote for them.

Ghislain

Andro
03-31-2014, 08:36 PM
This is a sort of 'Utopian' French film.

I just started watching it, looks like a version of Anarcho-Commuism.

Still, I'm sure some good insights may be gained from it :)


La Belle Verte (The Green Beautiful) is a French film written, directed by and starring Coline Serreau. In the years following its release, it was mysteriously banned throughout much of Europe and Russia. It is a VERY difficult movie to get a hold of, particularly with the poor English translations.

This said, it is one of the most amazing and truly beautiful and heart-warming films I have ever seen. It is a story about self-realization and harmony, a message of peace and makes you rethink the way you live your life. Once you watch it, you quickly realize why this film was banned and is purposely difficult to get a hold of; those in control do not want us to think and act in such ways as is reflected in this film.

This is suitable for everyone and should be seen by everyone, it's a movie you will not regret watching.Some of the YouTube comments are interesting too, divided in their opinions about the film and its possible 'agenda'.

--------------------------------------------------------
http://kickass.to/torrentwidget/AAD2EB153D122AAA5044A77B4AF3946C0933C2DB.png (http://kickass.to/la-belle-verte-1996-the-green-beautiful-dvdrip-x264-highcode-t8782901.html)

Awani
03-31-2014, 09:14 PM
Cool, download has commenced.


If there was only one change you could suggest to help this 'reality' evolve for what you would consider "the better", what would that be?

Well reality is very personal. It is very hard to change everyones reality. So I think if you transform the reality you find yourself in, and if this reality you create is a very good one, it will spread to the people around you... and to the people around them.

I think this is the only way. If you live in a place where the reality you want is so different than the reality you find yourself in (for example if you want to have a homophobic-free society whilst living in Iran), then you can either be the martyr or re-locate. I guess it depends on the dedication you put into it. Ultimately there is nothing to fear and nothing anyone can do to stop you/us.

Suppression, fascism, police, laws... it's all an illusion as is reality. I'm rambling... my main point has already been stated: if you want to change the world for the better, first change your own world!

You got to know what you want, and you got to be incorruptible.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/5208086606_a1374ab631_zpsdee9797b.jpg

:cool:

Andro
03-31-2014, 10:33 PM
You got to know what you want, and you got to be incorruptible.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/5208086606_a1374ab631_zpsdee9797b.jpg

Amen.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/WhiteLion1_zpsb1a43df3.jpg

Andro
04-13-2014, 06:35 AM
Goodbye World (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2352802/) (IMDB page)

Likely not everyone's Cuppa Lypse. Half decent and gets some points across. Yuppie version :)

Watch Online Here (http://putlocker.bz/watch-goodbye-world-online-free-putlocker.html)

On the 'heavier' side, there's also the movie Snowpiercer (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1706620/).

A micro-cosmos of post (?) apocalyptic human society... on a train.

http://kickass.so/torrentwidget/AB9402AE038CAB2EC746556EDD9DD14943DD873C.png (http://kickass.so/snowpiercer-sci-fi-thriller-eng-subs-1080p-h264-mp4-t9865864.html)

Andro
12-24-2014, 01:34 PM
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/WhyDoWeHaveWars_zps643bff1b.jpg

Is this the reason we have the wars that we have?

Not expressing a personal opinion, just throwing out a question...

Ghislain
12-24-2014, 01:56 PM
Is this the reason we have the wars that we have?


All that and the fact that we are gullible, lazy, greedy, hypocritical, selfish, bigoted, nationalistic arseholes and those above use these traits to manipulate the populace.

Well maybe :confused:

Ghislain

Ghislain
12-24-2014, 06:39 PM
I was going to delete my last post as it was a bit negative for this festive time of year, but it was what came into my mind at the time so I guess I'll leave it for discussion.

Ghislain

Andro
12-24-2014, 06:51 PM
We are gullible, lazy, greedy, hypocritical, selfish, bigoted, nationalistic arseholes.


I was going to delete my last post as it was a bit negative for this festive time of year.

So let's make it a festive/holiday/new year's resolution to change our ways :)

Ghislain
12-24-2014, 07:28 PM
So let's make it a festive/holiday/new year's resolution to change our ways :)

If it was just that easy it would already be done Androgynus; to try this as an individual one would be swallowed by the bigger fish. It would take a major world metamorphic event to bring the change needed.

Any ideas? ;)

Ghislain

Andro
12-24-2014, 07:47 PM
Who was it that admitted earlier to writing the book on excuses?

:p


Any ideas?

Start HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPTjtZ31lwk&feature=player_detailpage#t=134) :)

Dendritic Xylem
12-24-2014, 09:51 PM
It would take a major world metamorphic event to bring the change needed.

Any ideas? ;)

Step 1: Build a relatively simple free energy device, like the Gabriel device or the permanent magnetic DC transformer of Lawrence Tseung.

Step 2: Write clear easy instructions on how to build the device.

Step 3: Print out many thousands of copies.

Step 4: Fly a small Cessna over major cities and rain down the instructions.

DISCLAIMER...Please don't do this. It is surely illegal.
________________________________

Mod Note: Continued on a new thread: 'Free' Energy Technology (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4186-Free-Energy-Technology).


--------------------------------------------------------

Ghislain
12-27-2014, 09:40 AM
Who was it that admitted earlier to writing the book on excuses?

:p

Start HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPTjtZ31lwk&feature=player_detailpage#t=134) :)

Yes, I make you right Androgynus. Love the vid :)

Ghislain


-------------------------------------------------------

archerner
08-24-2015, 10:49 PM
Might be a little out there for some, just some observations I've made recently.



Heard rumors around the web about the explosion in China then the explosion in Japan on a military base. To the effect that we are already in a cyber/currency war with China. Looking at C"Isis"A, growing tension with Russia, the stock market, corporate hacks, grounded airplanes on the whole eastern seaboard, gov employees being hacked, It seems were already in a huge war. Just watch the movie Dirty Wars and you see a vast majority of what we're told is not true. Like Orwell said war becomes essential to the economy of the state, seeing as America and China are both Orwellian to a certain degree, could a war between us under the surface just be "good" business? It would seem to be a global suppression rather then war.



The primary aim of modern warfare (in accordance with the principles of doublethink, this aim is simultaneously recognized and not recognized by the directing brains of the Inner Party) is to use up the products of the machine without raising the general standard of living. Ever since the end of the nineteenth century, the problem of what to do with the surplus of consumption goods has been latent in industrial society. At present, when few human beings even have enough to eat, this problem is obviously not urgent, and it might not have become so, even if no artificial processes of destruction had been at work. The world of today is a bare, hungry, dilapidated place compared with the world that existed before 1914, and still more so if compared with the imaginary future to which the people of that period looked forward. In the early twentieth century, the vision of a future society unbelievably rich, leisured, orderly, and efficient -- a glittering antiseptic world of glass and steel and snow-white concrete -- was part of the consciousness of nearly every literate person. Science and technology were developing at a prodigious speed, and it seemed natural to assume that they would go on developing. This failed to happen, partly because of the impoverishment caused by a long series of wars and revolutions, partly because scientific and technical progress depended on the empirical habit of thought, which could not survive in a strictly regimented society. As a whole the world is more primitive today than it was fifty years ago. Certain backward areas have advanced, and various devices, always in some way connected with warfare and police espionage, have been developed, but experiment and invention have largely stopped, and the ravages of the atomic war of the nineteen-fifties have never been fully repaired. Nevertheless the dangers inherent in the machine are still there. From the moment when the machine first made its appearance it was clear to all thinking people that the need for human drudgery, and therefore to a great extent for human inequality, had disappeared. If the machine were used deliberately for that end, hunger, overwork, dirt, illiteracy, and disease could be eliminated within a few generations. And in fact, without being used for any such purpose, but by a sort of automatic process -- by producing wealth which it was sometimes impossible not to distribute -- the machine did raise the living standards of the average human being very greatly over a period of about fifty years at the end of the nineteenth and the beginning of the twentieth centuries.

But it was also clear that an all-round increase in wealth threatened the destruction -- indeed, in some sense was the destruction -- of a hierarchical society. In a world in which everyone worked short hours, had enough to eat, lived in a house with a bathroom and a refrigerator, and possessed a motor-car or even an aeroplane, the most obvious and perhaps the most important form of inequality would already have disappeared. If it once became general, wealth would confer no distinction. It was possible, no doubt, to imagine a society in which wealth, in the sense of personal possessions and luxuries, should be evenly distributed, while power remained in the hands of a small privileged caste. But in practice such a society could not long remain stable. For if leisure and security were enjoyed by all alike, the great mass of human beings who are normally stupefied by poverty would become literate and would learn to think for themselves; and when once they had done this, they would sooner or later realize that the privileged minority had no function, and they would sweep it away.

1984


The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous. Hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance. This new version is the past and no different past can ever have existed. In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia, but to keep the very structure of society intact.
I'm not doom and gloom about it, but you'd have to be kind of thick to not see all of this leading somewhere.

Also, it's only my opinion, but it seems having citizens turn against each other is 21st century warfare. Ie Ashley Maddison hack, who knows how many people are being blackmailed right now. And how many of us are vulnerable in ways we haven't thought of.

Are we already at war? Or is this just the new norm as the corporatocracy unfolds?

Ghislain
08-25-2015, 04:35 PM
I wear many hats archerner and so see the world through more than one perspective, and have to agree with the above...

I look at things like the Venus Project (https://www.thevenusproject.com/en/) and wonder if anything like that could ever get off the ground given the hidden and sometimes not so hidden opposition to change for the better and for all.

Andro
08-25-2015, 10:29 PM
Numbering 'world wars' is IMSU very artificial. 1,2,3 :)

When has the 'world' ever NOT been at (some sort of) war?


I look at things like the Venus Project (https://www.thevenusproject.com/en/) and wonder if anything like that could ever get off the ground given the hidden and sometimes not so hidden opposition to change for the better and for all.

Quoting myself: "The road to Utopia is paved with concentration camps."

Change for the 'better' and for ALL???

I want the address of the planet you're posting this from :)

archerner
08-25-2015, 11:05 PM
Read up on the Venus project. It's interesting but my NWO alarm bells went off. It'd be nice if we could all just get along, but it hasn't happened yet.
Lol @ androgynous that quote is gospel. I guess it is more of a "perpetual war", just segmented for easier indexing and concealing.
I'm glad I'm around while so much is changing in the world, as scary as it is at times. Although reading a bio on Paracelsus, that time sounded pretty rad in some ways too.
It just seems like we're in times of extreme light and darkness, and it's hard to tell which is which sometimes.

Ghislain
08-26-2015, 06:07 AM
Some people only see the problems, others see solutions.

A fairer level playing field would be a better platform than the disjointed inequality we have today.

Yes there would have to be rules, do you think there are no rules now? Try walking outside today with your clothes off.

I work with and try to manipulate rules all day long, I am a union representative, but I also work for the benefit of the employees and employer, realising that both play an important role.

Space could be allocated for those that like to cheat and fight...let them get on with it...The USA seems a good place for that, plenty of space, diverse climate and they are already there; we would just have to place a doomsday machine under it in case they wanted more ;)

I do understand the difficulties Androgynus, but we have evolved into what we are now, that doesn't mean we can't change, most are just too scared to.

The problem is most individuals want more than the next...that is one of the seven cardinal sins...greed.

I guess Utopia is only possible once all of us can control those seven itsy bitsy little traits we have.

Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride

Check out your last 24 hours and see if any of them failed to raise their ugly head.

Are we here to do nothing?

As to the point of the thread, yes I think this is becoming the norm; war is a corporate tool. Only education will bring an end to it...You have Bernie Sanders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders) standing for election in the USA, Jeremy Corbyn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn) fighting for leadership of the Labour party here in the UK. Not sure what is happening in other countries but I'm sure people are waking up. We all know what is happening, see the fake reports that are used to justify the incursion of another's space, but we choose to do nothing about it...sitting in our comfort zones, pretending that it makes no difference what we do...sloth. We deserve more than these others...pride. They have the cheek to retaliate...wrath. They have resources we should have...envy. Are they really starving...said as the last morsel possible is forced into the gullet...gluttony.

We can create our own little castles and divorce ourselves from the plight of others, but if successful in doing this then what has our time here meant, and what lessons have we learnt?

Just couldn't get Lust in there, perhaps it's an age thing. ;)

Ghislain UK, Planet Earth

crestind
08-26-2015, 01:25 PM
Shemitah doom this September you know!

Awani
08-26-2015, 02:10 PM
Bernie Sanders is not part of the 'waking up' crowd. Although he is using that crowd to get his votes. His solution is taxation, which is yet again not the new way but the old way in a new package.

Politics is a joke, a funny sitcom to watch. Doesn't matter who wins. So I hope Trump becomes President! Why? It would make the sitcom funnier to watch.

I don't worry about the state of the world. It is just how it should be. I am concerned only with my own world. It is the only world I can change.

It is about what 'I' learn, not what 'we' learn.

:cool:

archerner
08-26-2015, 04:43 PM
For all those holding out hope we're going to be destroyed in September - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

I agree we can't just look at the problem all day and hope some answer or very charismatic guy comes along. Change has to start at the individual level and requires a lot of self examination. But I don't think a utopia would appear overnight if we were to be able to master the seven Cardinal sins.

It just seems like nature to me, everything wants more, more sunlight, water, food, land; even the mitosis of single cells everything wants to expand and unfold. Where man has gone wrong is convenience. I like to call it Exoteria, the world of endless patents and thoughts underlying our homes appliances and technology. We've built this dopamine trap of instant reward, exertionless travel, immediate communication. If a utopia(being world peace) were to come about it would not be fun for most, It would be hard work and there wouldn't be the rewards of wealth or comfort. Technology will always dumb us down as it takes over procuring our needs thus increasing complacency. I do believe in a bright future and have immense hope for the world. The leaps in technology are proof man can accomplish great things but do we fully realize what every step towards "progress" costs us?

Ghislain
08-27-2015, 02:42 AM
Change has to start at the individual level and requires a lot of self examination. But I don't think a utopia would appear overnight if we were to be able to master the seven Cardinal sins.

This is what I am saying, we need to look at ourselves, but we are too busy looking at what others have. I am not poor, but I drive a car built in 2002, I stopped upgrading my phone at Iphone 4. I don’t need more.

Of course you could argue that my car uses more fuel, my phone doesn’t let me keep up to date with the latest improvements in technology. The phone is crap, I have a £5 Samsung that I use at work that has a 10 fold better reception than my Iphone, I only have to charge it about every 5 -6 days compared to every day for the Iphone...How much energy goes into producing a new car? Will I ever recoup those costs with my better fuel consumption. How much land will be raped to get the raw materials to build a new car?


It just seems like nature to me, everything wants more

Yes I totally agree, even in a forest tree saplings will fight for a light position until the successful one reaches the top and spreads its canopy to the detriment of all the others. But "we" have reason, we know this and can change it so that all can share.


We've built this dopamine trap of instant reward

That is a very small “we” called big corporations who spend billions on advertising and mind control to make us think we need these things.


If a utopia(being world peace) were to come about it would not be fun for most, It would be hard work and there wouldn't be the rewards of wealth or comfort.

I think the hard work would be bringing about Utopia, but why should it not be fun? If you work in a job that is fun then you don’t work.


I do believe in a bright future and have immense hope for the world. The leaps in technology are proof man can accomplish great things but do we fully realize what every step towards "progress" costs us?

Yes the COST...I’ll come to that in just a moment...


Bernie Sanders is not part of the 'waking up' crowd.

I disagree...he is putting his head above the parapet and stating home truths that everyone is ignoring. He isn’t talking about taxing the middle classes or small businessmen, he is trying to support them by clawing back some of the obscene concessions given to big corporations who are trying to destroy them.

Governments recently are making big issues about social security and the debt to society of the unemployed, in particular benefit fraud blah blah blah...a laughable smoke screen!

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/11217509_405599766304451_7031471193931185642_n.jpg ?oh=8d05b435a9fe91a6cf8c725825d5d096&oe=563AB404

Now watch what Bernie has to say to congress...Here is the COST!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsDYAtKlsT4

Ghislain

crestind
08-27-2015, 03:02 AM
The Shemitah prediction is not a doomsday prediction. It was merely a prediction that the stock market would tank, as it has done almost every 7 years prior. Good time to short on the way down, and buy before it goes back up.

archerner
08-28-2015, 02:57 AM
@ghislain I agree with Bernie in everything he says, but still feel like he's somewhat of a political tease. He's saying everything we want to hear but they'll be some scandal and he'll be done away with, the talking heads will only repeat two names over and over and we'll get another yes man. I'll definitely be reading up on him though.

@crestind Finally looked it up, I remember singing year of jubilee at church as a kid. I can't believe people are freaking out over jubilee. I personally know people who are extremely concerned. I felt the spirit singing it as a kid, don't know about anyone else. It's exactly how I remember it, an awesome hymm. I feel like if the year of jubilee tradition was followed here in the states things wouldn't have gotten this far. It be great to wake up to a debt free world.
ju•bi•lee (jo͞oˈbə-lēˌ, jo͞oˌbə-lēˈ)►
n. A specially celebrated anniversary, especially a 50th anniversary.
n. The celebration of such an anniversary.
n. A season or an occasion of joyful celebration.
Only America can feel terror from a joyful occasion.


I have a new idea about every time a new end of the world date is set. We look at that day and think "It probably won't happen but you know what, that day there will be people that will die from hunger, war, violence, disease" For them it truly is a doomsday in the most real sense. How about we shift our consciousness to those people and if one person could be saved, that is one microcosm we've spared. I'm preaching to myself as much as anyone else. I'd like to keep the peace promulgating ideas flowing.

Ghislain
08-28-2015, 08:43 AM
Actually I agree with everything everyone has said here to a point. People complicate the issues...if we could remove people from the equation it would be so much easier ;)

Here is something that might be of interest...

World Suffering - Conceptualization, Measurement, and Findings (https://www.soc.umn.edu/~rea/documents/Suffering%20paper%20for%20aapor2011%20%206may11.do c)

(Paper presented at the 2011 annual meetings of the American Association for Public Opinion Research (AAPOR) in Phoenix, Arizona, May 13, 2011)

It is a .doc file so it will download.

Ghislain

Awani
08-28-2015, 12:49 PM
I disagree...he is putting his head above the parapet and stating home truths that everyone is ignoring.

Yes, if he is not running for President, but he is and there will NEVER be a President that has woken up to anything more than the current status quo that will get you into office.

:cool:

Ghislain
08-29-2015, 01:18 AM
Oh ye of little faith ;)

Ghislain

Ghislain
08-29-2015, 08:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz_V4lRdtjo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvRJDJcmi5s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwldD2x4jEc

Ghislain

Awani
08-29-2015, 02:11 PM
I like that... good idea...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U4Ha9HQvMo

:cool: