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Kiorionis
06-12-2013, 07:56 PM
I recently extracted what is most likely the oil from Copper.
It's a nice blue color.
I am excited :)

The oil was taken out with salt and then taken from the salt with vinegar, and currently is sitting on my shelf.

Repeated distillation of the solution with 95% spirit of wine should in theory bring over the oil, and should leave the vinegar behind. Haven't tried it yet though (this is my first time working with an oil from metal).

I am however curious of other processes for separating the two.
Also curious if this is in fact an oil of copper.
and also curious if any of you have experience with anything similar and would like to give helpful tips, hints, cheats, etc; either in this thread or through PM.

I'll post a picture as soon as I get back home.

cheers

Kiorionis
06-12-2013, 11:41 PM
on second thought, I could probably distill off te vinegar. but I'm not sure how the acidity would affect the oil.

Andro
06-13-2013, 09:11 AM
Hi Kiorionis,

Did the copper dissolve? Or just extracted?

If it didn't dissolve, was the extracted metal altered in any way? (color, thickness/consistency, etc...)

Could you perhaps post images of the metal after extraction?

Thanks.

Kiorionis
06-13-2013, 01:22 PM
Hey,

No the copper didn't dissolve, it only changed to a light pink. leads me to believe it is just the oil being extracted.
It's thickness and consistency remained the same, but it did feel a bit softer afterwards.

Yes I have pictures coming soon. Probably after work tonight if I remember.

Kiorionis
06-13-2013, 07:41 PM
photos for you all :)

This first photo is the copper in solution. I'm thinking it's turned more white and pink and more dull on account of losing the blue tincture.
http://imageshack.us/a/img35/1316/img06311.jpg

And here is the tincture extracted from the salts. comes out a pretty blue.
http://imageshack.us/a/img24/7802/img0632qn.jpg

I want to do the process again here pretty soon to collect more, then distill off the vinegar to see what happens.
I'm thinking the oil has a lower boiling temperature than vinegar.

JDP
06-13-2013, 09:19 PM
Hey,

No the copper didn't dissolve, it only changed to a light pink. leads me to believe it is just the oil being extracted.
It's thickness and consistency remained the same, but it did feel a bit softer afterwards.

Yes I have pictures coming soon. Probably after work tonight if I remember.

Just take some samples of that bluish liquid you sent pictures of (which to me looks like just a diluted solution of a cupric salt) and test them with several chemicals that will give you clear signs of the presence of metallic copper, like solutions of alkaline carbonates or hydroxides, bits of iron wool, and so forth. For example, take 3 samples in separate test tubes and add the following:

1- Using a pipette, drops of a solution of potassium or sodium hydroxide or carbonate, until you see a light blue precipitate forming

2- The same as above, but adding an excess of an ammonium hydroxide solution, which will dissolve any precipitates formed and result in a deep blue solution

3- Add a few drops of sulfuric acid, and then a piece of iron wool, which will be quickly covered in a reddish-brown coat of metallic copper (copper sulfate is easily reduced by metallic iron; if you leave the iron in there long enough it will reduce all the copper out of the solution)

4- Should the above for some reason not have worked, repeat with a new sample and adding a few drops of hydrochloric acid and a strip of aluminum foil (cupric chloride is reduced back to metal by aluminum)

These simple tests will tell you if what you have is just a solution of metallic copper (i.e. a common soluble compound of the metal) or a true "oil" which does not contain the metal itself but one of its alleged components (the supposed "sulfur" of it.)

Kiorionis
06-13-2013, 10:26 PM
Interesting JDP, thanks for the info! :)

The picture of the vial and tincture isn't well filtered, and there is some mineral salt left in it from the extraction. But I will give a try with what you suggest once I find the ingredients.

Billur
07-19-2013, 06:19 AM
Copper wires left to macerate in glacial acetic acid (strong vinegar) yields a light bluish to blue green colored tincture, depending on the concentration of metal in the vinegar, and the amount of vinegar used.

of course, more copper + less vinegar yields an almost blue tincture, less copper + more vinegar yields an almost green tincture.

from what I can remember, drying this tincture out yields common verdigris, commonly used as green pigment in earlier paintings, which is also known as copper acetate.

through a process that I can't remember right now and which I may have read from frater albertus' writings years ago, it is possible to extract the true oil of copper from this verdigris. but if drying out that tincture yields blue green flecks, that's just copper acetate.

the test described above might be helpful to know if it is really the oil of copper.

Good luck!

Kiorionis
07-19-2013, 05:56 PM
interesting. I haven't got much further on this work. I moved into a new apartment shortly after posting htis. Currently I'm calcining my salts which are used to extract the tincture.

The reason I think it'll turn out to be an oil is because the salts I'm using are what absorb the tincture, and not any specific acid. 95% grain alcohol (which has pH 7, neutrality) + salts.
The salts themselves turn greenish, then the vinegar extracts the blue tincture out of them.


of course, more copper + less vinegar yields an almost blue tincture, less copper + more vinegar yields an almost green tincture.

Also interesting. However, my salt + alcohol -- or the more copper + less vinegar -- is yielding a green tincture, and the more vinegar + less copper yields the blue tincture..

My plan for the tincture is: filter well and vapor away the vinegar. if a salt is left, to circulate grain alcohol over it for the most volatile of the tincture. If an oil is left, all the more reason for me to be excited :)

Depending on how long it takes me to calcine the salts and do the vinegar work (I plan on doing this part at very low temps -- sunlight mostly), I'll have picture and a better idea of the results in a few weeks or so.

Thanks though for the luck and information
this is my first metal work, after all. I'm learning a lot ;)

Billur
07-20-2013, 02:09 PM
I've never used salt in the tincture I made, that's a big difference that I overlooked. It might be possible that the addition of the salt would yield the oil rather than a solution of copper in vinegar.

Another thing I overlooked is the use of grain alcohol, I haven't used them much since I can't find 190 proof alcohol anywhere, and my last attempt at a distillation train ended in disaster.

I vaguely remember the directions I was about to follow when I stopped working on this. Once verdigris was obtained and dried, it was to be calcined and then put into a retort, I forgot what was supposed to be added to it or if there was anything that was supposed to be added, but after applying heat the oil would then come forth.

I did use sunlight to make the vinegar evaporate and leave behind verdigris. But most of all, it was the smell of vinegar, it was.. interesting.

I'm currently have some magnetite sand together with vinegar that I threw together on a whim. it has yielded a dark red tincture. Interestingly, the magnetite sand also yielded flesh colored blobs of spongy material swimming inside the vinegar. It might just be impurities from the sand, but I did take great care to just include only those that are attracted to the magnet, quite sure some hematite was in there too though.

I hope that you'll be able to get the oil, and once you do, post more pictures of it :D

Kiorionis
07-20-2013, 03:46 PM
was it just a typical dry distillation to extract the oil?

I'm thinking the addition might have been something to soften the verdigris to more easily extract the oil..

And I plan on posting pictures of the whole process :)

Ghislain
07-20-2013, 10:42 PM
Billur

I placed iron oxide in acetic acid and placed this on a strong magnet to see what would precipitate out of the mix.

You can see the result HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1338-Acetic-Acid-on-Iron-Oxide)

It is quite a long thread and the film of the reaction has long been lost :( but the pics are still there.

Ghislain

Billur
07-21-2013, 03:34 AM
thanks for the link! looks like dry distillation was the word I was looking for!

I'm curious about those white crystals, did you ever find out what they were?

Ghislain
07-21-2013, 08:43 AM
Unfortunately not.

I can only assume they were the result of something contained in the Stainless Steel.

I think I might repeat the experiment with pure Iron and see what happens.

Ghislain

Billur
07-21-2013, 11:08 AM
I would guess, without any evidence to back it up, that it was chromium, the component of stainless steel that makes it "stainless".

Kiorionis
07-22-2013, 04:31 PM
So I evaporated my sample instead of letting it sit around. Turns out the tincture crystallized into what I think is copper(II) sulfate.

I can test to make sure it is as such:

Copper sulfate reacts with concentrated hydrochloric acid very strongly. In the reaction the blue solution of copper(II) turns green, due to the formation of tetrachlorocuprate(II):

This isn't entirely bad, and I'm still super excited I could draw out the sulfate in such a short time (it only takes about a day for the salt to absorb the tincture).
Copper Sulfate was used as an anti-fungal, anti-bacterial back in the day until it was found to be toxic. The toxicity, I believe, is due to the fact that the oil (Sulphur) remains bound up in the matrix (Salt), making it difficult or even impossible for the body to break down and assimilate/transmute.. Will try removing a tincture with grain alcohol, but my sample may not be enough in quantity.

Also, onto the fun part: dissolving the copper sulfate into an oil. I am assuming this art lies under the work of Vitriol, and what Basil Valentine says in his Triumphal Chariot: that water is formed into earth by the aid of fire and air. Grain spirit may assist in its volatilization (vegetable air). Otherwise I have mineral earth (the copper sulfate) and mineral fire (the colored-oil bound to the earth). At this point I don't see vinegar as being of any more use in its dissolution, but I'm looking into it more.
Seem like a good avenue? :cool:

JDP
07-22-2013, 09:44 PM
So I evaporated my sample instead of letting it sit around. Turns out the tincture crystallized into what I think is copper(II) sulfate.

I can test to make sure it is as such:


This isn't entirely bad, and I'm still super excited I could draw out the sulfate in such a short time (it only takes about a day for the salt to absorb the tincture).
Copper Sulfate was used as an anti-fungal, anti-bacterial back in the day until it was found to be toxic. The toxicity, I believe, is due to the fact that the oil (Sulphur) remains bound up in the matrix (Salt), making it difficult or even impossible for the body to break down and assimilate/transmute.. Will try removing a tincture with grain alcohol, but my sample may not be enough in quantity.

Also, onto the fun part: dissolving the copper sulfate into an oil. I am assuming this art lies under the work of Vitriol, and what Basil Valentine says in his Triumphal Chariot: that water is formed into earth by the aid of fire and air. Grain spirit may assist in its volatilization (vegetable air). Otherwise I have mineral earth (the copper sulfate) and mineral fire (the colored-oil bound to the earth). At this point I don't see vinegar as being of any more use in its dissolution, but I'm looking into it more.
Seem like a good avenue? :cool:

Correct me if I missed something: weren't you working with metallic copper and acetic acid? If so, it is copper acetate that you have produced.

Kiorionis
07-23-2013, 02:56 PM
Not originally. The tincture from the metallic copper was drawn out by means of a specific mineral-salt and grain alcohol -- roughly one part copper, one part salt, two parts alcohol. vinegar was only used to draw the tincture out of the mineral-salt after the tincture had been removed from the metallic copper. Which is one reason why I thought it would evaporate down into an oil (I guess I was applying vegetable theory to metal work, that salt and spirit absorb an oily soul).

but then again, it could be copper acetate. I'm not certain about the abilities/qualities of this new mineral-salt I'm using..
Copper acetate wouldn't be bad either. I'm sure as soon as it's poison is removed it'll make a wonderful medicine.

I think I should change the title of this thread to "Messing with Copper". would be more precise.

Andro
07-23-2013, 03:17 PM
I think I should change the title of this thread to "Messing with Copper" would be more precise.

Is the title Experiments with Copper OK with you?

If you prefer another title, please let me know.

A.

JDP
07-23-2013, 08:37 PM
Not originally. The tincture from the metallic copper was drawn out by means of a specific mineral-salt and grain alcohol -- roughly one part copper, one part salt, two parts alcohol. vinegar was only used to draw the tincture out of the mineral-salt after the tincture had been removed from the metallic copper. Which is one reason why I thought it would evaporate down into an oil (I guess I was applying vegetable theory to metal work, that salt and spirit absorb an oily soul).

but then again, it could be copper acetate. I'm not certain about the abilities/qualities of this new mineral-salt I'm using..
Copper acetate wouldn't be bad either. I'm sure as soon as it's poison is removed it'll make a wonderful medicine.

I think I should change the title of this thread to "Messing with Copper". would be more precise.

Simple moderate heating of the salt you have produced will help you settle whether it is copper acetate or sulfate. If it is the sulfate, it will turn white-grayish with moderate heat, as it loses crystallization water. If it is the acetate it will start getting darkish colors soon. Copper acetate is a much less stable salt than the sulfate and decomposes sooner with heat and contact with the air.

However, since you have used another (not identified) salt in the experiment, it is possible that some of it has also gone into solution together with the copper salt you have produced, so it might interfere with this simple test.

Beware of ingesting any of the products of any given experiment. People have poisoned themselves believing in their own theories and making assumptions that they had really prepared "quintessences", "elixirs", "magisteries", "medicines", etc. And I am not only talking about ancient, medieval or early modern times. As recent as only a year or so ago a certain fellow -who was well-known among Internet alchemy enthusiasts- killed himself ingesting his own concoctions.

Kiorionis
07-24-2013, 05:20 PM
Is the title Experiments with Copper OK with you?

A.

That'll work just fine, thanks :)



Simple moderate heating of the salt you have produced will help you settle whether it is copper acetate or sulfate. If it is the sulfate, it will turn white-grayish with moderate heat, as it loses crystallization water. If it is the acetate it will start getting darkish colors soon. Copper acetate is a much less stable salt than the sulfate and decomposes sooner with heat and contact with the air.

Thanks for this information, it will be quite helpful in the future.


However, since you have used another (not identified) salt in the experiment, it is possible that some of it has also gone into solution together with the copper salt you have produced, so it might interfere with this simple test.

This is possible. I'll have to check to see if concentrated vinegar dissolves my mineral-salt before it's applied to copper.


Beware of ingesting any of the products of any given experiment. People have poisoned themselves believing in their own theories and making assumptions that they had really prepared "quintessences", "elixirs", "magisteries", "medicines", etc.

Indeed I will. As of right now I know what I've drawn out is toxic on account of the metallic nature of the salts. I know a woman who practices natural medicine and is quite good at finding out whether a substance is beneficial as medicine or toxic as poison, and she's helped me with it before with excellent results; I wont be taking any mineral/metal tinctures without her consultation, and only after I'm fairly certain I have reached my goal -- which at this point is possibly three or more steps/processes away, depending on how my next idea turns out.


Copper(I) Sulfate = Cu2SO4; Copper(II) Sulfate = CuSO4. Copper(II) Acetate = Cu(OAc)2

Either way, I think I'll have to turn the copper sulfate or acetate against itself by removing some of it's structure -- quite possibly the gaseous/subtle parts, or at least that's where i'll start -- so that I can add a subtle/volatilizing agent (in this case, grain alcohol). Basilius Valentine gives me good ideas about breaking glass :p

Kiorionis
07-30-2013, 07:04 PM
Finished calcining about half of my salts, and set them in digestion again. Turns out the salt absorbs the tincture most when the spirit is vapouring away. The first time I went through this process I didn't understand it completely. . .

However, I didn't have any proper equipment that wasn't in use for cohobation, so I made my own :)

http://imageshack.us/a/img703/7130/9po8.jpg
my "cohobation chamber"
It works quite well! The spirit, salt and copper are set in the center, smaller jar; the spirit distills, condenses on the sides and leaves the matter dry in the middle (or at least as dry as it can be considering the environment). The spirit is then poured back onto the salt/copper and the cycle begun again.

this photo is after one cycle. the volatile mineral-salts have already begun to tincture. the spirit was poured back on. May only have to do this once.

Other curiosities are beginning to arise out of this salt. It dissolves in cloud-water, 95% grain alcohol and also vinegar.

Billur
07-30-2013, 09:42 PM
interesting setup! I imagine that if you could find another glass vessel with the same size as the smaller jar in the image, you could put it in such a way that when the spirit condenses, it comes down in drops without having to add it back, much like how a pelican works.

Kiorionis
07-30-2013, 10:53 PM
interesting idea. if i have your meaning right, it would be something like this?

http://survivalkitinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/survival-water-purification.jpg
(just the top part of it though)

It might work, but then it would defeat the purpose of letting the spirit completely distill off the matter. This mineral-salt seems to be particular in the amount of moisture it wants in order to operate on the copper. too much spirit drowns its action, too little and there is not much progress and most of the salts don't tincture (what took a week with circulation took two days in this so-called chamber). So it's working perfectly in that the setup eventually allows the saturated salt to reach its balance point with the spirit in order to draw out the tincture. Plus on each cycle of the spirit I can mix it all about more thoroughly, exposing untinctured salts to the copper.

I will play with the idea though, it is a good one :)
probably would work out so I don't have to use so much spirit, thus eliminating the time it takes for the extra spirit to distill off..

Billur
08-01-2013, 07:04 PM
more like this actually, but it the concept is the same:

http://www.crucible.org/images/zpelicanSmall.jpg

I took note of what you said about the condensation on the outer larger jar. from what I understood, the condensate is poured back, but if you used a pelican, you don't need to pour it back in.

those are 2 different processes though, and the effects might be different.

anyway, I look forward to more updates! liked I've said before I haven't used salts so it is interesting to see what will happen in this setup.

Kiorionis
08-01-2013, 10:23 PM
those are 2 different processes though, and the effects might be different.

true. I wish I had a sweet pelican like the one you linked to.

Took this image in the evening with low light, so the green-blue of the salt sort of blends in with everything else. But anyways, this is more of the copper-tinctured mineral salt.
http://imageshack.us/a/img17/424/5iy3.jpg

And here is the vinegar tincture ready for low-heat distillation in retort.
http://imageshack.us/a/img834/8746/fub4.jpg

Next time I plan on letting the copper bathe in the salts longer. A few months to half a year. At this point I'm just excited and a bit impatient :p
After this is done distilling, there should be a bit of coloured salt to be washed in water, then set to grain alcohol.

Hopefully I'll be able to get some of these mineral-salts back too (I don't see why I can't, it's just the how and at what stage). so far it looks like I've lost almost half after extracting the tincture with the vinegar due to it being dissolved along with the tincture. The soul has yet to leave the body...

Kiorionis
08-02-2013, 08:04 PM
Hi Kiorionis,

Could you perhaps post images of the metal after extraction?

Thanks.

I had quite forgotten about this request, Androgynus, but was rereading everything and caught it :)

http://imageshack.us/a/img841/9141/f0uf.jpg
left is the copper before it's tincture is removed
right is after.

As soon as I find time to find the copper I left out in the wilderness I'll know if this is typical oxidation, or at least something similar.
I also have a new process for my mineral-salt that should lead to interesting results.

Kiorionis
10-10-2013, 06:05 PM
I haven't gone much further lately due to national parks being closed and running out of salt. Also, it seems that if you leave the salts digesting in vinegar too long the grain alcohol will no longer have sufficient strength to draw out the tincture. Basil seems to be correct in this instance, that vinegar fixes whereas spirit of wine, grain volatilizes..

Something else I'd like to try is volatilizing the tinctured salts with sal ammoniac. Thinking to lute and seal a wine bottle and throw it on the fire in an attempt to resolve it into a liquor

Dr.Zoidberg
10-18-2013, 07:05 PM
Hello Kiorionis!

We have attempted to recreate your experiment and wanted to share some pictures with you. A couple things were different in our experiment. Our salts were not exactly the salts you used and we also used SV instead of grain alcohol.

We used 99.9% shot and a 99.9% bullion coin just to see the differences... The shot jar resulted in more of a color change in the SV. The coin started turning a brownish color very similar to another pic in this thread showing your before and after.

Pictures right after sealing containers:
http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b620/george5mith/IMG_20130903_111956_zpsbf75eda2.jpg (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/george5mith/media/IMG_20130903_111956_zpsbf75eda2.jpg.html)

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b620/george5mith/IMG_20130903_112047_zpsdef58176.jpg (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/george5mith/media/IMG_20130903_112047_zpsdef58176.jpg.html)

Pictures after 40 days:
http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b620/george5mith/Alchemy/IMG_20131018_130359_zps26a4c48b.jpg (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/george5mith/media/Alchemy/IMG_20131018_130359_zps26a4c48b.jpg.html)

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b620/george5mith/Alchemy/IMG_20131018_142421_zps55126858.jpg (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/george5mith/media/Alchemy/IMG_20131018_142421_zps55126858.jpg.html)

Looking forward to see what you do with this next!

Kiorionis
10-18-2013, 08:53 PM
Awesome stuff! I think it's cool that you can get the same or similar results with varying substances. Just shows how many ways Nature has to break something down :)

I've run out of salts to continue further, but I'll be able to acquire more in the near future. I also plan on letting the solution sit for several months (I found some of the salts I used in my first set of experiments and they have the deepest blue I've seen to date. That was about a year ago).

Ghislain
10-19-2013, 06:15 AM
Kiorionis

I took some Golden Water and let it putrify for a few months, distilled off the volatile
liquid and placed some copper in it.

You can see the result in the pic below. Because it is so dark blue the pic is a link to
a short clip of the jar being shaken so you can get a better idea of just how blue it is.

http://thealchemyforum.com/Images/Copper in GW (http://youtu.be/2Zw5bqmaENQ)

I may try evaporating this to see what I get and I'll update later.

One thing I forgot to mention...it's pretty smelly :(

Ghislain

Ghislain
10-19-2013, 07:18 AM
Heres another experiment to get Red :)

I put copper electrodes onto a solution of vinegar and salt.

Don't ask me why :)

Below is a pic of the sediment I got from this.

http://thealchemyforum.com/Images/copper oxide (I) (http://genius.toucansurf.com/copper%20oxide.JPG)

I was looking into Vitriol, which comes up in many alchemical texts. You can read more
about this in the thread Vitriol (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?933-Vitriol) written some time ago.

Ghislain

Kiorionis
10-19-2013, 08:08 AM
Looks like you have something green in the making! :)

I haven't considered using golden water or electrodes. This is very interesting stuff. I'll definitely apply it to other of my works too.

Cheers!

Kiorionis
11-19-2013, 07:50 PM
Today I gathered more salts to continue this work. And I was able to gather 50% more than last time, so I'll be able to extend my experiments as well. It'll take a month or so to prepare the salts (they come with much watery phlegm, and I plan on taking it slower this time to hopefully preserve more volatiles). So future updates, photos and thoughts are on there way :)

amoodikh
02-09-2014, 06:20 PM
http://imageshack.com/a/img802/737/yp17.jpg

Quite sometimes ago accidentally by heating copper pipe in kiln I got it covered with rosy red color. I did not record the temp at that time and ignored to try it again for I did not know if it is of benefit to alchemy work. my kiln is out of work now.