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Salazius
06-18-2013, 12:15 PM
Fulcanelli made annotations on Stanislas de Guaita's "La clef de la magie noire"/The Key of Black Magic, at the chapter "La magie des transmutations"/The magic of transmutations.

You can download here the pdf of Guaita in french (without) annotations :
http://hermetism.free.fr/images/Guaita_serpent.pdf


The notes of Fulcanelli in the book of Stanislas de Guaita (Fulcanelli underlines certain words of the text of Stanislas de Guaita, they are thus here underlined too) :

page 758 : "...Raymon Lulle de Palma s'enfermer à la tour de Londres...", note de Fulcanelli : "Il y fut obligé et dut s'enfuir de sa prison après"

page 759 : "... c'est la masse des écrivains ...", note de Fulcanelli : "surtout des auteurs modernes"

page 766 : "... L'Azoth des sages, synthèse des trois, consiste en un menstrue, l'Alchaëst ou dissolvant des métaux ...", note de Fulcanelli : "erreur ; l'alcaest n'est pas l'Azoth. Il y a entre eux la différence du mercure vulgaire et du mercure philosophique. Il s'agit de cuire l'azoth pour obtenir la Pierre, tandis que l'alcaest est seulement le premier dissolvant. Par l'action de l'alcaest sur le métal on obtient l'humide radical qui fournira ensuite l'azoth."

page 766-767 : "... le mercure sera la première substance des métaux, diversement spécifiable par tel ou tel soufre, - et le sel sera la matière de l'oeuvre.", note de Fulcanelli : "Ce n'est pas exact. Le sel ne sera pas la matière de l'oeuvre, mais ce qui lui donnera la forme, l'enveloppe."

page 769 : "... dans lequel la lumière métallique est latente, avant qu'elle soit spécialisée, et la pousser à l'extrême positif ...", note de Fulcanelli : "Ce sujet ne peut être capté dans les conditions décrites. Nous ne pouvons l'avoir, que lorsqu'il est déja formé, c'est-à-dire spécifié. Mais, malgré sa spécification, c'est la matière la plus prochaine du premier être des métaux."

page 770 : "... pour préparer cet Acier, il faut connaître et savoir utiliser leur Aimant. Le propre de l'Azoth est de dissoudre tous les métaux, - au cas particulier, l'or et de l'argent, ...", note de Fulcanelli : " - qui est le dissolvant spirituel, - non, voir plus haut, - erreur, l'or et l'argent n'entrent pas dans le travail de l'oeuvre"

page 771 : "... En dissolvant l'or et l'argent vulgaires dans l'Azoth ou Mercure des Sages... la pierre philosophale", note de Fulcanelli : " archifaux, erreur commune de tous les débutants"

page 772 : "... et du temps, une série de phénomènes ... qui transmue les métaux en or", note de Fulcanelli : "l'auteur n'a pas pénétré le grand secret de la coction. Ce n'est pas ainsi qu'elle s'opère et au surplus, l'artiste ne voit jamais les couleurs décrites. Personne n'a jamais révélé cette connaissance et peu de philosophes l'ont sue. Une seule couleur apparaît : le noir. Les autres n'existent qu'à l'état de symboles et non d'apparences physiques."

page 773 : "... dix fois son poids,environ, de Mercure philosophal ou d'Azoth des Sages.", note de Fulcanelli : " Contradiction de l'auteur avec le début, où il prend l'azoth et l'alcaest pour des synonymes."

page 773 : "... cette opération ne vise pas moins qu'à recommencer tout l'oeuvre ... 10, 100, 1000, 10000, etc.", note de Fulcanelli : " Théorie simple, agréable, mais fausse. Non, on ne peut multiplier à la fois en quantité et en qualité. Ce sont deux procédés différents."

page 773 : " ... D'autres philosophes multiplient ... , qu'elle réduit à sa propre nature de pierre.", note de Fulcanelli : "en abaissant son pouvoir transmutatoire."

page 775 : "... la matière première, - Magnésie ou Marcassite ou Minière des Sages, - dont il s'extrait, n'est ... C'est le Serviteur Rouge, la Vierge hermaphrodite de nature, ... se sublime", note de Fulcanelli : " non, la magnésie extrait le mercure des sages du métal. Ce serviteur noir et [écrit ET et non EST] la Vierge noire."

page 775 : "... En d'autres termes, cette marcassite est un aimant de la Lumière métallique potentielle, ou ... le Mercure féminin.", note de Fulcanelli : " exact, elle attire et se gorge du Spiritus mundi."

page 775-776 : "... Une fois la minière ... il s'agit d'en extraire séparément le Mercure et le Soufre libres, ... Dissolvant des alchimistes", note de Fulcanelli : " Il n'y a rien à en extraire ni à en séparer. Ceux qui affirment le contraire ne sont pas philosophes et n'entendent rien à la philosophie."

page 776 : "... Mais nul ne peut dégager le mercure de ses liens, sans ... il faut savoir l'attirer à soi par l'artifice de leur Aimant.", note de Fulcanelli : " cercle vicieux".

page 776 : "... Voilà le grand arcane d'Hermès : ... l'Acier des Sages, qui n'est autre que l'électricité , et celle de leur Aimant, symbole de la pile d'où elle émane.", note de Fulcanelli : " - explication vraiment moderne !! - ??? "

page 776 : "... Avant nous, Eliphas Lévi avait déja signalé l'emploi de l'agent électrique dans les opérations ... réalisations hermétiques", note de Fulcanelli : " Quelle aberration, quelle confusion !"

page 776 : "... Nous avons fait entendre ... Le magicien peut ainsi réaliser de l'or , aussi bien que toute autre substance corporelle." , note de Fulcanelli : " C'est cette facheuse théorie, absurde autant que ridicule, qui a causé le dévoiement du regretté Albert poisson."

page 776-777 : "... D'autre part, si l'on qualifie de Magnétisme ... un tel art hermétique diffère sensiblement de la pratique opératoire du grand oeuvre , ... et non plus de Magie.", note de Fulcanelli : " un peu ... beaucoup !"

page 777 : "... Notre Acier (dit Philalèthe) est la vraie clef de l'oeuvre... c'est un feu infernal et secret, et même en son genre extrêmement volatil " , note de Fulcanelli : "Très vrai"

page 777 : " ... c'est le miracle du monde ... distingué par un caractère particulier ", note de Fulcanelli : "l'étoile des mages"

page 778 : " ... vous aurez vu son étoile (1) (1 ; note en bas de page : "L'étincelle électrique") , note de Fulcanelli : " Inutile d'employer un renvoi pour dire une absurdité."

page 778 : "... Philalèthe : Ayant dit que notre Acier ... régler sa route par la vue de l'étoile du nord (3) que notre Ayman fera paraitre. (3 ; note en bas de page : Toujours l'étincelle" , note de Fulcanelli : " Malgré la belle clarté de ce passage, on voit que Guaita n'y a rien compris."

page 778 : "... Mais il ne suffit pas de libérer Mercure de ses liens, il faut le fixer, ou il se perd en fumée blanche." , note de Fulcanelli : "C'est le soufre seul qui s'en charge, et non l'alchimiste. Le soufre noir premier être du soufre blanc et rouge."

page 779 : "... le dissolvant ou lait virginal n'est pas un amalgame ; c'est nécessairement un liquide, un menstrue végétable", note de Fulcanelli : " Erreur, c'est un solide. Il est friable, dur, cassant et très fusible."

page 780 : "... et c'est d'une seule et même matière qu'on les a extraits ... le sel s'engendre de l'union des deux." , note de Fulcanelli : " L'enfant nait de la destruction du soufre et du mercure."

page 780 : "... Le Soufre universel est invariablement envisagé comme le père ... on le voit, c'est affaire de point de vue." , note de Fulcanelli : " C'est une véritable salade russe."

page 782 : "... comme en dissolvant tout métal ... pour l'Argyropée (1) il faut de l'argent et de l'Azoth ; et, pour la Chrysopée (2), de l'or et de l'Azoth.", note de Fulcanelli : " Compréhension vulgaire et profane de l'alchimie - Il n'y a rien dans ce passage qui approche de la vérité - Nous répétons que l'or et l'argent, même réincrudé, doivent être, aussi bien que le mercure courant, exclus de matériaux employés pour la réalisation de l'oeuvre."

page 784 : "...(Albert Poisson) la partie inférieure contenait le feu ... Tel était l'ath- anor généralement en usage.", note de Fulcanelli : " L'Athanor est la matière même, et le fourneau ne signifie rien. Ces descriptions ne servent qu'à abuser les ignorants."

page 788 : "... Enfin parait la blancheur, annoncée par les colombes de Diane, ... voici la terre blanche feuillée, bientôt résolue en granulations ... il n'a plus qu'à rompre le vaisseau pour recueillir sa pierre blanche.", note de Fulcanelli : "- Ce n'est pas en ce lieu que les auteurs ont insisté sur la nécessité des colombes de Diane, l'un des plus grands secrets de la préparation du mercure philosophal. - La terre blanche feuillée est le mercure initial net et pur. Sa texture, en effet, présente une superposition de lamelles cristallines, détachables comme le mica. - Le vaisseau étant la matière nourricière et l'enveloppe, la matrice, elle, se fend et s'ouvre d'elle-même en manifestant l'enfant lors de sa naissance. ce qui explique qu'on ne soit [voit ?] rien jusque là."

page 790 : "... Palpitant d'émotion, l'opérateur peut enfin briser le sceau d'Hermès." , note de Fulcanellli : " Le sceau se brise tout seul car l'artiste ignore le temps, la durée de son oeuvre qui peut en exiger plus ou moins."

page 790 : "... Enfin, projetée sur dix fois son poids de mercure ou de plomb fondus, la pierre transmuerait, après deux heures d'ébullition ou à peu près, le métal imparfait en or très pur.",note de Fulcanelli : " Erreur - la pierre première n'a aucun pouvoir sur les métaux."

I'm sorry I can't translate everything ... Just sharing because I found it to be of value.
Anyway my question is : WHY would Fulcanelli annote HIS own book ? Is it really his own book ? ...

Source : http://hermetism.free.fr/Fulcanelli_et_Stanislas_de_Guaita.htm

Excellent french site.

Ghislain
06-18-2013, 01:54 PM
Just a quick Google translation of the above.

As I don't read French I cannot account for the accuracy of the translation.


page 758: "... Raymon Llull Palma lock to the Tower of London ...", note Fulcanelli: "There was obliged and had to flee from prison after"

page 759: "... it is the mass of writers ...", note Fulcanelli "especially modern authors"

page 766: "... The Azoth of wise synthesis of the three, is a menstruum, the Alchaëst or dissolving metals ...", note Fulcanelli: "error, the alcaest is not the Azoth. ago them unlike mercury vulgar and philosophical mercury. This is cook azoth for the Stone, while alcaest is only the first solvent. Through action alcaest on metal yields the radical moisture, which then provide the azoth. "

Page 766-767: "... the mercury will be the first substance of metals, variously specifiable by individual sulfur - and the salt will be the subject of the work." Fulcanelli note: "This is not exact. salt will not matter in the work, but this will give it the shape, the envelope. "

page 769: "... in which the metal is latent light before it is specialized, and push to the extreme positive ..." Fulcanelli note: "This issue can not be captured under the conditions described . We can not have it, when it is already formed, that is to say specified. But despite its specification, this is the next area of ​​the first metals to be. "

page 770: "... to prepare this steel must know and use their own Magnet The Azoth of is to dissolve all metals - in particular cases, gold and silver. .. . "says Fulcanelli" - that is the spiritual remover - no, see above - error, gold and silver are not included in the work of the work "

page 771: "... By dissolving the gold and silver in the Azoth or vulgar Mercury of the Wise ... the philosopher's stone," says Fulcanelli: "archifaux, all common mistake beginners"

page 772: "... and time, a series of events ... which transmutes base metals into gold," said Fulcanelli: "The author has not penetrated the secrecy of the concoction Only. not how it operates and in addition, the artist never sees the colors described Nobody has ever revealed this knowledge and some philosophers have sue One color appears:... black Other n 'exist only in symbols and not physical appearances. "

page 773:. "... ten times its weight around, Mercury Philosophical or Azoth des Sages", note Fulcanelli: "Contradiction of the author with the beginning, where he took the azoth and alcaest for synonyms. "

page 773: "... this operation is not less than start all the work ... 10, 100, 1000, 10000, etc.." says Fulcanelli:. "Simple theory, nice, but false No , we can multiply both in quantity and quality. These are two different processes. "

page 773: ". ... Other philosophers multiply ... it reduces its own nature stone," says Fulcanelli: "lowering its transmuting power."

page 775: "... the raw material - Magnesia or marcasite or Mining of Sages, - which is extracted, is ... This is the Red Servant, the hermaphrodite Virgin nature, is ... sublime, "says Fulcanelli:" No, magnesia extract mercury metal wise This black servant and [not written AND IS] the Black Madonna "..

page 775: "... In other words, this marcasite is a magnet for potential metal light or female ... Mercury." says Fulcanelli: "exact, it attracts and throat Spiritus Mundi. "

Page 775-776: "... Once the mining ... it is to extract the Mercury and Sulphur free separately ... Solvent alchemists" Fulcanelli note: "There are nothing to remove or to separate them. Those who say otherwise are not philosophers and know nothing about philosophy. "

page 776: "... But no one can release mercury from its links without ... we must learn to attract to itself by the artifice of their Magnet." says Fulcanelli: "vicious circle".

page 776: "... This is the great secret of Hermes ... Steel of the Wise, who is none other than electricity, and that of their magnet, battery symbol from which it emanates. "Fulcanelli note:" - really modern explanation - "!??

page 776: "... Before we Eliphas Levi had already reported the use of electric operations officer in ... airtight achievements," says Fulcanelli: "What aberration, what confusion!"

page 776: "... We hear ... The magician can realize gold, as well as any other bodily substance." , Note Fulcanelli: "It is unfortunate this theory as absurd and ridiculous, which caused the abuse of the late Albert Fish."

Page 776-777: "... On the other hand, if you qualify Magnetism ... such a hermetic art differs significantly from the surgical practice the great work ... and not Magic." notes Fulcanelli: "a little ... a lot!"

page 777: "... Our Steel (Ph. says) is the real key to the work ... it's a secret and infernal fire, and even a kind extremely volatile," says Fulcanelli: "Very true"

page 777: "... it is the miracle of the world ... distinguished by a particular character," says Fulcanelli: "Star of the Magi"

page 778: "... you have seen his star (1) (1, footnote page:" The electric spark "), note Fulcanelli:" No need to use a reference to say nonsense. "

page 778: "... Ph.: Having said that our steel ... set his way to the North Star (3) our Ayman will seem (3, footnote page:. always the spark, "says Fulcanelli:" Despite the beautiful clarity of this passage, we see that there is nothing Guaita understood. "

page 778: "... But it is not enough to release its Mercury links must be secured, or it gets lost in white smoke." , Note Fulcanelli: "This is only the sulfur that supports, not the alchemist's first black sulfur be white and red sulfur.".

page 779: "... the dissolving or virginal milk is not an amalgam, which is necessarily a liquid, végétable menstruum," says Fulcanelli: "Error is a solid is brittle, hard. very brittle and fuse. "

page 780: "... and this is one and the same material they have been extracted ... the salt causes the union of the two." , Note Fulcanelli: "The child born of the destruction of sulfur and mercury."

page 780: "... The universal Sulfur is invariably seen as the father ... we can see, this is a matter of perspective." , Note Fulcanelli: "This is a real Russian salad."

page 782: "... as dissolving metal ... all for Argyropée (1) it takes money and Azoth, and for the Chrysopée (2), gold and the . 'Azoth, "says Fulcanelli:" profane and vulgar understanding of alchemy - There is nothing in this passage close to the truth - we repeat as gold and silver, even réincrudé must be , as well as current, excluded from the materials used for the realization of the work mercury. "

page 784: "... (Albert Fish) the lower part contained the fire ... That was the ath-abnormal general use." says Fulcanelli: "The Athanor is the same material, and the furnace is means nothing. These descriptions are only abusing the ignorant. "

page 788: "... Finally seems whiteness, announced by the doves of Diana, ... here is the white clay leaves, soon resolved grits ... he just has to break the vessel to collect the stone . white, "says Fulcanelli:" - It is not here that the authors emphasized the need doves of Diana, one of the greatest secrets of the preparation of the Philosophical Mercury - The white clay leaves. is the net initial pure mercury and Its texture, indeed, present a superposition of crystalline lamellae, detachable like mica -.. The ship is the material and the envelope feeder, matrix, she splits and opens to 'manifesting itself in the child at birth. hence it is [see?] nothing so far. "

page 790: "... Exciting emotion, the operator can finally break the seal of Hermes." , Fulcanellli note: "The seal breaks alone because the artist ignores the time, the duration of his work that may require more or less."

page 790: "... Finally, projected ten times its weight of mercury or lead melted, stone transmute, after two hours of boiling or nearly so, the imperfect metal pure gold." says Fulcanelli "Error - the first stone has no power over metals."


Ghislain

zoas23
06-18-2013, 11:38 PM
Anyway my question is : WHY would Fulcanelli annote HIS own book ? Is it really his own book ? ...


Just because they have the same first name, you made me remember that I've purchased an used copy of "Alchemy: the secret art" by Stanislas Klossowski de Rola in a bookstore.
... And the book came with hundreds of notes by its previous owner.
And since I've read her notes, I can tell that the previous owner was a woman who was very much into some sort of contemporary paganism, probably Wicca... and she made a lot of notes about what the book had to say about the Moon, whilst she also found that a lot of parts of the book were "sexist" from her point of view... and mostly wrote every idea in which she didn't agree with what Klossowski de Rola was writing.

Why she felt the need to annote her own book? I have no idea... I simply know that some people does such thing.
However... since Fulcanelli did so many "tricks" to keep his identity as a secret, then I assume it is hard to know if the book was owned by him or if it's him the one who made the notes.

But I don't find it specially strange that a person wrote lots of notes in a book (specially when it is a book that was published during the life of Fulcanelli, it was probably a "cheap book"... it's not that he was writing all over a very valuable XV century manuscript).

Salazius
06-19-2013, 09:37 AM
Yes Zoas, you are probably right. I don't take notes in my books and the idea is strange to me, that's probably why I found it weird...

Ghislain, the google translation is horrible since the first phrase. Anyway, one can almost understand what is said.
Fulcanelli speaks only of the dry path, like he doesn't know the humid one ... curious.

Green Lion
06-19-2013, 04:52 PM
The notes are from Jean-Julien Champagne, not from Fulcanelli.

Salazius
06-19-2013, 05:09 PM
Yes good to note that.

A lot of people have their idea on the identity of Fulcanelli, do yo have your Green Lion ?

Green Lion
06-19-2013, 05:38 PM
Yes, but it of no interrest I think.
The only thing of importance is the two books of Fulcanelli.

Hellin Hermetist
06-24-2013, 01:05 PM
...

Hellin Hermetist
06-24-2013, 01:05 PM
Yes, but it of no interrest I think.
The only thing of importance is the two books of Fulcanelli.

His books have many mistakes and misinterpretations. For example Fulcanelli affirms that the two compatants of Basil Valentine symbolize the fixed and volatile part of an unknown alchemical substance, when in reality they are nothing more than niter and salmiac. Also Fulcanelli says that the first matter of the art (antimony of the part of Saturn of Artephius) is a certain mineral under its natural form, when its not the nature but art that creates this compound using Saturn (common lead) and a certain salt. Fortunately some of the older authors were much more generous than Fulcanelli.

JDP
06-24-2013, 09:11 PM
His books have many mistakes and misinterpretations. For example Fulcanelli affirms that the two compatants of Basil Valentine symbolize the fixed and volatile part of an unknown alchemical substance, when in reality they are nothing more than niter and salmiac.

Ever since a certain anonymous 17th century German writer published a well-known commentary on Basil Valentine's 12 keys, this has been the most common interpretation of what these two characters represent. It would be interesting to know what other 17th and 18th century commentators of this text had to say about what these two figures represent, specially the 18th century German lawyer Franz Clinge, whom professor Creiling seems to have considered the most knowledgeable man on the "anatomy of metals". Clinge wrote a whole book devoted to explaining Valentine's 12 keys.


Also Fulcanelli says that the first matter of the art (antimony of the part of Saturn of Artephius) is a certain mineral under its natural form, when its not the nature but art that creates this compound using Saturn (common lead) and a certain salt. Fortunately some of the older authors were much more generous than Fulcanelli.

Even though I totally agree with you about Fulcanelli's unreliability, and that the matter of the Stone is a compound made by the operator, not a simple, singular, raw mineral as it comes from the mine, as he thinks, in all fairness he did not claim that antimony was that matter. He very explicitly condemns antimony and says that generations of "puffers" wasted their time with it trying to make the Stone. I agree with him on that one.

Hellin Hermetist
06-24-2013, 09:35 PM
Ever since a certain anonymous 17th century German writer published a well-known commentary on Basil Valentine's 12 keys, this has been the most common interpretation of what these two characters represent. It would be interesting to know what other 17th and 18th century commentators of this text had to say about what these two figures represent, specially the 18th century German lawyer Franz Clinge, whom professor Creiling seems to have considered the most knowledgeable man on the "anatomy of metals". Clinge wrote a whole book devoted to explaining Valentine's 12 keys.

If his Will and Testament is not a pseudepigrapho, then the same person who wrote the twelve keys has also given us the interpretation of his own work. There (in Will and Testament) he gives precise extraction about what we have to do to make aqua regia using niter and salmiac. He calls it water of the two combatants. He also says that a mixture of spirit of salt and aqua fortis can give exactly the same results and can be prepared with much less pains.




Even though I totally agree with you about Fulcanelli's unreliability, and that the matter of the Stone is a compound made by the operator, not a simple, singular, raw mineral as it comes from the mine, as he thinks, in all fairness he did not claim that antimony was that matter. He very explicitly condemns antimony and says that generations of "puffers" wasted their time with it trying to make the Stone. I agree with him on that one.

Fulcanelli says that the antimony of the philosophers is a natural mineral which we extract from the mine (seems that he is refering to galena) and philosophers call it antimony cause they have to follow caballistic rules and puns. Older authors say that the philosophical antimony is an artificial mineral (not a natural one) which resembles common stibium in appearance, and its created by the fusion of common lead with certain salts. That why its called antimony from Saturnian parts.

JDP
06-24-2013, 09:47 PM
If his Will and Testament is not a pseudepigrapho, then the same person who wrote the twelve keys has also given us the interpretation of his own work. There (in Will and Testament) he gives precise extraction about what we have to do to make aqua regia using niter and salmiac. He calls it water of the two combatants. He also says that a mixture of spirit of salt and aqua fortis can give exactly the same results and can be prepared with much less pains.

It probably is a pseudepigraphical work. As far as I can remember, the two oldest treatises attributed to that author are the Triumphal Chariot and the 12 Keys. Later on more texts attributed to the same author started to appear. Very likely none of them are by the same author.


Fulcanelli says that the antimony of the philosophers is a natural mineral which we extract from the mine (seems that he is refering to galena) and philosophers call it antimony cause they have to follow caballistic rules and puns. Older authors say that the philosophical antimony is an artificial mineral (not a natural one) which resembles common stibium in appearance, and its created by the fusion of common lead with certain salts. That why its called antimony from Saturnian parts.

Yes, though I am not so sure that lead is really one of the materials they mean.

Hellin Hermetist
06-25-2013, 01:13 AM
Yes, though I am not so sure that lead is really one of the materials they mean.

Have u found any other authors who give detailed instructions for this process except Respour?

JDP
06-25-2013, 03:49 AM
Have u found any other authors who give detailed instructions for this process except Respour?

Respour thought that zinc was the material to work with.

Salazius
06-25-2013, 08:23 AM
Maybe something to dig with Nicolas Deloques with zinc.

Hellin Hermetist
06-25-2013, 12:00 PM
Respour thought that zinc was the material to work with.

He gives many processes. In one of them he is referring to a mineral which he calls zinc of antimony (maybe the one which in ancinet Greece was called earth of Cadmus). In another process he is speaking about the Saturnian antimony made from lead and niter (Book II, Ch. III).

Salazius
06-26-2013, 09:56 AM
I had not much access to De Loques books, where did you get them ?

Hellin Hermetist
06-26-2013, 09:49 PM
I had not much access to De Loques books, where did you get them ?

I was referring to Respour not De Locques. But may u shall find this one interesting.

http://chrysopee.zzl.org/_ouvrages/383.pdf

Salazius
06-27-2013, 09:14 AM
Thanks!

Hellin Hermetist
02-25-2014, 01:29 PM
Ever since a certain anonymous 17th century German writer published a well-known commentary on Basil Valentine's 12 keys, this has been the most common interpretation of what these two characters represent. It would be interesting to know what other 17th and 18th century commentators of this text had to say about what these two figures represent, specially the 18th century German lawyer Franz Clinge, whom professor Creiling seems to have considered the most knowledgeable man on the "anatomy of metals". Clinge wrote a whole book devoted to explaining Valentine's 12 keys.

Hi JDP. Have you ever studied the work of Clinge? I guess that it has never been translated from the German.

JDP
02-25-2014, 03:11 PM
Hi JDP. Have you ever studied the work of Clinge? I guess that it has never been translated from the German.

No, I haven't been able to do it precisely because of that: there is no English -or any other language I can understand- translation of his works anywhere. But I will be dealing with this problem in the future, as I am currently working with an excellent German translator who charges $0.03 per word translated. Of course, I won't be able to have all of Clinge's books translated (too much material to have translated), only the parts that I can discern are more important. More material could get translated from these little known German books on alchemy & chymistry if only more people were interested in cooperating to make such translations, but alas, most people seem totally uninterested in such projects. They expect to be given reading material at no cost at all.

Hellin Hermetist
02-25-2014, 07:34 PM
No, I haven't been able to do it precisely because of that: there is no English -or any other language I can understand- translation of his works anywhere. But I will be dealing with this problem in the future, as I am currently working with an excellent German translator who charges $0.03 per word translated. Of course, I won't be able to have all of Clinge's books translated (too much material to have translated), only the parts that I can discern are more important. More material could get translated from these little known German books on alchemy & chymistry if only more people were interested in cooperating to make such translations, but alas, most people seem totally uninterested in such projects. They expect to be given reading material at no cost at all.

How will you be able to discern the more important parts if you cant understand the language? Do you have the book in pdf form? A friend of mine speaks German fluently (he took his master from a German university) and may give some help. Also about which other treatises do you speak when you make refernce to less known German books?

JDP
02-25-2014, 10:26 PM
How will you be able to discern the more important parts if you cant understand the language?

I know enough German alchemical/chymical vocabulary to know when an author is talking about things that are of interest, plus these old German authors mixed up a lot of Latin words in their German texts, which further allows me to have a pretty good idea of what they are talking about in any given section. For example, there are parts of Clinge's books that seem to be long disquisitions on religious matters (plenty of Biblical quotes and so forth) with hardly anything to do with alchemy, yet other parts are heavy on the stuff that is more relevant to our subject matter (transmutation, the pesky "puffers" he seems to dislike so much, allegedly false processes, real "particulars", the Stone, "Spirit of Philosophical Wine", "Mercury", "Sulfur", "Salt", what appears to be an attack on Philalethe's claims, the decomposition of metals into their alleged constituents, etc.)


Do you have the book in pdf form?

Yes, I have scans of all his books on alchemy (by profession he was a lawyer, so he also published works on other subjects.)


A friend of mine speaks German fluently (he took his master from a German university) and may give some help.

Would he be willing to translate the interesting parts? I can send you a sample and see how he performs.


Also about which other treatises do you speak when you make refernce to less known German books?

There's many rather little-known German books that have plenty of interesting stuff. For example, Kellner's books are chock-full of "particular" processes that he collected from many books and manuscripts that fell into his hands, and some he even put to the test himself and then tells his readers whether he approves or condemns them (I am dealing with translating many of these processes collected by Kellner, as we speak.) A lot of them are of the kind that I know interest you (special cementations to make silver yield some gold, special "gradatory waters" that also make silver give some gold in the form of a dark calx that falls to the bottom of the flask as the silver dissolves or is digested in them, etc.) I even found further information about that "particular tincture" that Fulcanelli mentions in his "Dwellings of the Philosophers", the brown liquid that Godwin Herman Braun of Osnabrück used to turn lead into gold in 1701. Fulcanelli took his information from Henckel, who himself got it from Valentini, but neither of these writers seems to have had access to information on how the "tincture" was allegedly made. Kellner, on the other hand, did. It has nothing to do with "oily metallic extracts", as Fulcanelli thinks. Kellner's books are an untapped little "gold mine" of information on all sorts of "particular" processes from the late 17th and early 18th century.

Hellin Hermetist
02-26-2014, 12:17 AM
Hi JDP,

I don't think that this friend of mine shall be interested to get some money to make a professional translation. May he can translate some parts to me in oral, so I can say to you if they are interesting or not. By the way, as you are well acquainted with the German alchemical vocabulary, have you tried to study the book by the help of online translators? I have found the one of sdl really helpful.

JDP
02-26-2014, 03:34 AM
Hi JDP,

I don't think that this friend of mine shall be interested to get some money to make a professional translation. May he can translate some parts to me in oral, so I can say to you if they are interesting or not. By the way, as you are well acquainted with the German alchemical vocabulary, have you tried to study the book by the help of online translators? I have found the one of sdl really helpful.

No, electronic translators are just not up to the task. Not only are many of the German words written in a more archaic spelling which modern electronic translators/dictionaries do not recognize, but to further complicate matters the texts are printed in that "Gothic" typeset that requires someone very familiar with it to make an accurate transcription of many words.

My familiarity with German is limited to the technical lingo of alchemy and chymistry.

Translating these texts is a job for someone who not only is very knowledgeable in German, both old and modern, but someone who is also familiar with the Gothic typeset that most German books were printed in back in those days. Therefore it is not easy to find someone who is willing to work on these texts, even with pay. I spent years trying to find any German translator willing to work on them, but the few that were willing to do it charged ridiculous translation rates. Fortunately, after much searching, I finally found one who did agree to work on them for a reasonable fee ($0.03 per word translated.)

crestind
05-16-2014, 06:39 PM
As far as paid translations go, I wonder if having one guy to convert the Gothic to plaintext, and another to actually translate might be more affordable by $0.01 per word total, or match the $0.03 per word. It has the added benefit of providing a readable copy of the original German as well for alternate translations.

JDP
05-16-2014, 09:33 PM
As far as paid translations go, I wonder if having one guy to convert the Gothic to plaintext, and another to actually translate might be more affordable by $0.01 per word total, or match the $0.03 per word. It has the added benefit of providing a readable copy of the original German as well for alternate translations.

The translator who works for me sometimes actually transcribes the German text too, all included for the same price! ($0.03 per word) She does not always do this because most of the time she can plainly understand most of the words and thus can provide a good translation with very few problem-words (which when found she transcribes individually as notes for my attention), she only transcribes the whole text when dealing with texts where there's a higher number of problem-words, so I can help trying to find out what they might mean (since these words are usually technical terms pertaining to alchemy/chymistry, here is where my expertise on the subject comes very handy in helping her determine what these words mean.) For example, when I had many processes translated out of Kellner's books (this guy's books, much like Becher's, are a veritable gold-mine of all sorts of "particular" processes! these two authors apparently spent a long time collecting books and manuscripts on the subject), she saw it as necessary to transcribe the whole text of the processes in one column, and provided her translation right next to it in another column, which makes for easy comparison of both the original German and the English translation to try to identify any words/passages that can be interpreted in more than one way or that are not clear.

One thing is for sure: we could get way more material regarding alchemy and 17th-18th century transmutational "chymistry" translated into English if some of us joined forces rather than one person having to bear the whole cost of the translations. I have been somewhat limited in the amount of material I have had translated from German into English because I have found no one else so far who is interested in sharing the cost. I have a long list of interesting stuff that is available nowhere else than in those old German books. I have found that besides the old "classic" languages (viz. Greek, Latin and Arabic) there simply is no other language that comes even close to the huge amount of material available on this subject of transmutation of metals as there is found in German. Even the material available in French pales in comparison to that available in German.