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Andro
06-14-2013, 08:13 PM
Mod Note: This is a Spin-Off Thread about Political & Cultural Aspects of Diversity in Sexual Orientation & Gender Identity, continued from HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1143-Youtube-music-links&p=30627#post30627).

Anything related to this topic (but not directly related to Alchemy or Tantra) may be posted here, on this new thread.
The spin-off started when a video was posted of a song named 'Androgynous (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1143-Youtube-music-links&p=30626#post30626)' (by Crush Test Dummies), to which I added other related videos and some side comments.
It was due to those follow-up comments of mine and the reactions they triggered that the YouTube music thread got derailed.
__________________________________________

In the days of glam rock, supposedly hetero artists like David Bowie (among others) put on bisexual/androgynous images for publicity, while gay artists had to stay in the closet (i.e. Elton John, and later Michael Stipe and many others) for fear of neanderthalic public opinion. In other words, it was OK for show, but people didn't want to know the truth behind the act. Quite a handful of Hollywood gay megastars are still not out (American puritanism can take all the violence in the movies, but apparently can't deal with same gender romance :)). I won't name any names, but they are well known in the industry as well as in gay circles.

And don't even get me started about all these manufactured boy-bands who sing about girls but are apparently more into each other than into the opposite gender :) Maybe this is part of the marketing strategy (David Icke has published examples of subliminal homoerotic imagery in marketing), but members of boy-bands who were actually gay had to stay closeted to put up a 'straight' appearance for the mostly teenage female fan base (Stephen Gately of Boyzone, Lance Bass of N'Sync, Mark Feehily of Westlife, etc...)

A quote from the Garbage song 'Androgyny':


free your mind in your androgyny

I personally think that the world is evolving towards an enhanced understanding (and embracing, even if not fully consciously) of androgyny and sexuality that is not necessarily set in stone... And if you detect it in the media, it's (IMO) not propaganda as some religious conspiracy theorists may think, it's simply a commercial harnessing of what was already there all along.

thrival
06-18-2013, 02:36 AM
Yes, gay is the new chic. It's also a failed experiment of many past confused and conquered cultures, an abheration of nature and a genetic dead end. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, nothing new under the sun. We will never agree on this topic, sorry if you're unhappy with the equipment God gave you or choose to use it in unintended ways. The End IS important in all things, and so is the purpose.

Andro
06-18-2013, 04:58 AM
Yes, gay is the new chic. It's also a failed experiment of many past confused and conquered cultures, an abheration of nature and a genetic dead end. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, nothing new under the sun. We will never agree on this topic, sorry if you're unhappy with the equipment God gave you or choose to use it in unintended ways. The End IS important in all things, and so is the purpose.

I understand that these are your opinions. Hopefully, such concepts will fade in time and more holistic/all-encompassing views on nature and creation will gradually take their place.

Until that time, it's kind of beneath me to actually (textually) address your bigoted comments and distorted 'logic' - so I'll just post some videos and pics instead, which are somehow related to the topics you brought up.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Bv7WIygitU&feature=player_detailpage


It's also a failed experiment of many past confused and conquered cultureshttp://modmobilian.com/uploads/2011/10/Homeland-Security1.png

Lunsola
06-18-2013, 12:23 PM
Thrival, I have a lot of things I want to say against your views but I won't contribute to derailing.

Please head over to the Sexual Orientation and Alchemy (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1197-Sexual-orientation-and-Alchemy) thread if you want to get set straight.

thrival
06-18-2013, 12:30 PM
Hi Androgynous;

I know it's perceived as bigoted but the question of who is promulgating a "distortion" is but a historical footnote. Maybe it's something in the water, flushed pharmaceuticals, or plastic bottles that leach. Hormones do affect human behavior, it's only a matter of time before it begins influencing philosophy and justifications (again). Anyway, apart from a few oddities in nature (when they occur), sex is a behaviour, and that involves choices, while feelings are but subjective vagueries. Just because person(s) feel things are or should be a certain way, doesn't make them true. And don't think I'm unfamiliar with the opposite camp, arguements or politics, I just disagree with them, vociferously. I know many on this board are sympathetic to yours, but I don't really see personal sexual orientation as having much to do with alchemy, but I have noticed how gay people like to inject the topic into others, and certainly not most or all alchemists are gay. Nature is very able to differentiate, form follows function, yada yada, and not every distinction humans offer is an improvement. In fact some will get you bombed back into the stone age, wouldn't be the first time. If nature made you an oddity, there's no shame in that, but it's also not a license to "Do as thou Wilt" (without consequences.)

Since Alchemists like to call themselves "philospher's" of nature, the premise is they came by their views scientifically, disspassionately, via observations; therefore you shouldn't use adjectives like "bigoted" (unless you're OK with "perverted") just because someone's conclusions differ from yours. I just don't have time to stop and pay homage to every passing gay parade. The question is, will expression of the opinions of a silent majority, who are "OK" with what nature gave them, get a person banned from a discussion board whose members purport themselves as truthseekers in all aspects of life?

Lunsola:

Already "straight," but thank you anyway. I agree that the thread you mentioned would be a better place to discuss the topic, only that the gay issue was added to this youtube thread before me, and mine was simply comment to it.

Lunsola
06-18-2013, 08:11 PM
Thrival, the first thing I'm going to address is your "God" viewpoint. Like God doesn't make mistakes. Babies get born with flaws and physical defects all the time. If you were born with something wrong or different with you then you would want to live your life to the fullest as well. So how can you judge any of us for trying to live our lives to the fullest when you would do the same or suffer horribly if you were in the same situation, it's absurd. It's like saying "Oh! hey! you were born blind! Suck it up, that's how God wants you." or "You chose this, you chose to have everyone hate you, now let me throw rocks at you!" Don't you see how asinine that sounds? That's basically your opinion. You can try to sugar coat it but it's hate talk wrapped in a pretty pink box of your insecurity and ignorance. Nobody would choose to be LBGT/different with so much hate in the world, it makes zero sense.

Homosexuality is not a choice for a REAL/pure 100% heterosexual. If you think homosexuality is a choice then you must be bisexual because real heterosexuals have no choice in the matter. Likewise some homosexual people have no choice. I think most people are bi which is why it's such a wildly popular belief that homosexuality is a choice. The act of sex is a choice but the inner feelings and desires are NOT. The only thing LBGT people can do is choose to be happy which seems to burn up people like you. Nobody is hurting you, you don't have to read our posts and you certainly don't have to post hate/judgment. The world will keep spinning even if 90% of the world population has continuous homosexual relations, it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. You should try to be more considerate of other people's feelings and thank your God he didn't give you any "problems" like these. Most of our problems are just dealing with other people so you should be able to understand the frustration even if just from a theoretical viewpoint.

Hormones don't turn homosexuals straight, there have been experiments to try this.

Anyone who can't see how sexual orientation relates to alchemy probably isn't a very good alchemist. To one who truly understands alchemy everything is related, it is everywhere.

Why are you so against those who are different? Religion perhaps, which has no legitimacy at all. Culture/society, which is completely constructed. There isn't anything wrong with being gay and there is no argument you can possibly supply to prove otherwise. The truth is we came into this world with no guide, no set of rules, and nothing stopping us from living how we want. Of course there will be consequences, there are consequences for everything including inaction. I'll choose the consequences I can live with or make my life as good as possible and I would advise others to do the same.

zoas23
06-18-2013, 11:32 PM
In the days of glam rock, supposedly hetero artists like David Bowie (among others) put on bisexual/androgynous images for publicity, while gay artists had to stay in the closet (i.e. Elton John, and later Michael Stipe and many others) for fear of neanderthalic public opinion. In other words, it was OK for show, but people didn't want to know the truth behind the act.

During those days of Glam Rock, Jobriath became, as far as I know, the first Rock musician who had a contract with one of the HUGE labels (Elektra, in 1973) and publicly declared that he was gay... and the idea that he was gay was one of the two main ways in which his label tried to promote him (the other being the idea that he claimed that he was an extraterrestrial... then again, nobody took this idea too seriously and it only meant that Jobriath was eccentric... so the main promotion he had was tha he was gay and dressed like an Alien).
I think Jobriath became a big lesson for the music industry during those years.
Elektra spent a lot of money promoting his albums and shows... They gave him the best possible musicians for his shows (like Led Zeppelin's John Paul Jones)... And yet his career was a total failure (I must say that I do listen to his albums often, but his career as a musician made the big companies/labels think that promoting a musician who was openly gay was a disaster).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lp_e4wUnz4

He had a son titled "I am a man"... the song mostly explained that he would be able to love a woman in the way that a man loves a woman, but that he decided not to do it because he's a "graceful man", an "elegan man" and other ways of explaining that he was gay... and, since he was gay, he was unable to "love".

Yeah, take it for granted that Jobriath was far from being a genius like Bowie, but he was way better than, say, Gary Glitter... who had a huge success being a terrible musician, but mostly showing the "macho" side of Glam Rock.

Both Jobriath and Gary Glitter were somehow "created" by big labels... but Jobriath was given the role of an Alien (probably because he was gay?), whilst Gary Glitter was given the role of some sort of glamorous biker with shirts that showed that he had lots of hair in his chest and other "macho features" even if he wore glam clothes.

It is funny how History repeats itself.
In 1981, the RCA Label also hired an openly gay musician, Klaus Nomi...
The Glam Years were long, but New Wave was the new "big thing" and the Neue Deutsche Welle was quite fashionable.
This is almost one decade after Jobriath was hired.
And Nomi was also promoted as a Gay Extraterrestrial!
And the first single that the RCA decided to release for him was "Simple Man".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFaZyHxQGYQ

Following a similar style to Jobriath's son, "Simple Man" mostly was a way of explaining that Nomi was a Simple (Gay) Man who was unable to love, that he was doing "the best he can".

The message of both songs is quit similar: Gay men were some sort of extraterrestrial creatures who were unable to love... you said "t was OK for show, but people didn't want to know the truth behind the act."

I think people wanted to hear that these "gay extraterrestrials" were somehow handicapped creatures that were unable to love or have sex.

No surprise, Nomi's career became a disaster too (from an economical point of view, of course... as a musican, he was incredibly talented).

And then, the underground scene offered artists who were very different to these "sexless gay extraterrestrials"... Probably my favorite example is Jayne County, the first transexual punk singer, who had a sex-change surgery.... and mostly decided to give up the style of showing herself as a handicapped alien and became very confrontational, with songs like: "Are you man enough to be a woman?" or "If you don't wanna fuck me, then fuck off!".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ELPk8O28d4

I got a transexual feeling
It's hard to be true to the one that's really you
I got a scandalous feeling
It's hard to be true when they point and stare at you
Conditioned to portraying the mask of masculinity
Another blend of different shading
I am what I am
I don't give a damn
I wanna know, Are you man enough to be a woman?

That's probably one of my favorite punk songs... It is still interesting that Jayne County was there when Punk started in England, she got a role in Derek Jarman's Jubilee movie, the first punk fiction (Jarman... a man who did awesome movies about gay rights)... and yet she was absolutely forgotten in almost every history of Punk music that was written... as if she didn't exist.

Then again... the fact that Jayne County was not just gay, but also transexual has a lot to do with it.


I personally think that the world is evolving towards an enhanced understanding (and embracing, even if not fully consciously) of androgyny and sexuality that is not necessarily set in stone... And if you detect it in the media, it's (IMO) not propaganda as some religious conspiracy theorists may think, it's simply a commercial harnessing of what was already there all along.

I've talked a lot about music, maybe because I like music... maybe because pop/rock music are very much like a mirror of the societies in which we live.

Yes, the western world is becoming more open minded about sexuality (I don't think the middle-eastern world is doing such thing at all, but mostly the opposite... gay rights and women rights are both being destroyed daily there).

As a side comment.... I think I am not very enthusiast about this idea of "androgynity".
It does remind me a lot of Lautréamont's tale of the Hermaphrodite (in Les Chants de Maldoror, of course)...
the most beautiful story in that book, and yet a very sad story, because this Hermaphrodite feels like a monster and can only "dream of love", because the androginous body of this hermaphrodite is a hadicapped body when it comes to having sex with either a man or a woman.
You know, a bit like the "handicapped for sex Gay extraterrestrials" that the music industry created (Jobriath and Nomi).

I do prefer a world were the gays can be gays, the lesbians can be lesbians and the transexuals can be transexuals... instead of the "sexless extraterrestrials".

The homophobic macho culture is the worst of all cultures.
A lot of heterosexuals are currently getting rid of it because it has nothing to offer... to anyone.
If the "Homophobic Macho Culture" is the "Natural Culture"... then, oh well... I won't really cry when that "Natural Culture" finally dies... and all of us dare to create something which is certainly happies and healthier for our bodies, minds, spirits and souls.

To me, a homophobic alchemist makes even less sense than... hmmm... the existence of Tom Cruise.

... And I'm still a Zero in that Kinsey thing you've posted O_o

Andro
06-19-2013, 12:43 AM
I think I am not very enthusiast about this idea of "androgynity".
It does remind me a lot of Lautréamont's tale of the Hermaphrodite (in Les Chants de Maldoror, of course)...
the most beautiful story in that book, and yet a very sad story, because this Hermaphrodite feels like a monster and can only "dream of love",
because the androginous body of this hermaphrodite is a hadicapped body when it comes to having sex with either a man or a woman.

Well, first there is the internal spiritual androgyny - the ability to conduct a mix of both male and female energies, regardless of gender or orientation.

And if androgynous bodies ever make a re-entrance, rather than a handicap, I see it as a way to enjoy intimacy with either gender (that is, if separate genders still exist when this happens :))


To me, a homophobic alchemist makes even less sense than... hmmm... the existence of Tom Cruise.

LOL... You said it :) Careful, he apparently has people scouting the media and suing anyone who he feels threatened by (like he sued that South Park episode)...


... And I'm still a Zero in that Kinsey thing you've posted O_o

And I don't like you one bit less because of that :)
------------------------------------------------------------
All and all, it's been a while since I enjoyed a post so much! Thank you!

solomon levi
06-21-2013, 04:40 AM
I don't have any opinions on sexual orientation. What matters to me is to be true to oneself, whatever that may be.
I'm in a relationship with a lesbian right now. I haven't unlesbianised her, but she loves me more than any other person,
and we have amazing sex and talks and everything. Should I have not been interested in her because she identified herself
as a lesbian? I don't believe in identities... y'all know that. I know who we are beyond our genitalia. That's what loves.

None of you are gay to me. None of you are straight to me. None of you are just men or women to me. I don't believe you. :)

III
06-21-2013, 08:22 PM
I don't have any opinions on sexual orientation. What matters to me is to be true to oneself, whatever that may be.
I'm in a relationship with a lesbian right now. I haven't unlesbianised her, but she loves me more than any other person,
and we have amazing sex and talks and everything. Should I have not been interested in her because she identified herself
as a lesbian? I don't believe in identities... y'all know that. I know who we are beyond our genitalia. That's what loves.

None of you are gay to me. None of you are straight to me. None of you are just men or women to me. I don't believe you. :)

Hi Solomon,

Of course none of us are straight. N dimensional fractals are infinitely rough in every dimension. Good to here of this. Are you intending to engage in a partnered Alchemy? If you have any questions perhaps I could provide useful information. I never let labels get in my way either. At a small college (1100) I was the largest focus of gossip despite having done nothing that would normally be the focus of gossip and I got labeled. A group of over fed elementary ed majors in particular were out to get me. I had run into them in my child psych courses. They took aside the girls I hung out with and warned them and everybody else that I was "dangerous". When pressed they warned specifically that I used too many big words. The girls they warned thought that was desirable characteristic.

thrival
06-21-2013, 09:07 PM
Lunsola:

Well I can't possibly respond to the amount of hate from all the gays for my having an unapologetic heterosexual view, so I guess you are the lucky one I'll respond to, and probably just this once, because I've also noticed that for gay people, it never seems to end. We both know you have an agenda.

Basically you are arguing from a position of feelings, not nature. It isn't my job in this life to babysit everyone's feelings. Nature does differentiate, there's more heterosexuality in nature than homosexuality for the sheer fact that pure homosexuals don't reproduce, it takes a heterosexual relationship to do that, so hetero is a priori, first, from a creation aspect.

As for God making "mistakes," I don't quite look at it that way either. Earth is a laboratory and Nature is God's "art" being practiced by devachanic beings. IF it were some "Old Man in the Sky" paradigm you might say that S/He "allows" things to happen. Variations are being tested all the time, the successful ones pass on their genes and life changes in that direction. In my original post to Androgynous I clearly said that natural oddities "happen" and they are not a cause for shame, if you chose to incarnate into such a form then you also took on the responsibility of living with it. Many people are born with all sorts of disabilities, armless, legless, blind, what have you, and don't have a grudge or personal hate-God-club about it. Maybe they understand it's karma for something they did to someone in the past, or maybe they find life gratifying in other ways. Helen Keller was a good example of a person feeling gratitude (just for the ability to feel and communicate) with considerable other human disabilities.

I am perfectly willing to admit that homosexuality can be a choice or a chemical abheration, but if you have normal genitals then that's how God made you. Unless you're unconscious, who you have sex with is a choice you make. You might "like" people of the opposite sex (that's a feeling) but you certainly won't reproduce with that person and sex before any other human preference, serves for procreation, that's it's purpose and function. Hopefully you can agree with that, otherwise you are hopelessly lost in personal preferences, and I can't see how that makes a better scientist of anyone. I know that a lot of imagery has crept into Alchemy for metaphorical reasons or maybe it was put there by the satanists (hate-God-Club again.) I don't see androgyny as any key concept in Alchemy though, and have no secret wish to become so. Sure androgyny happens, but not half as often in biological fact as in people's feelings, i.e. the realm of choices. As point of fact, uninformed feelings have very little (if any) utility. It's the feelings that need to be trained, and informed, or people behave like raging animals, not beings worthy for any higher civilization or rewards. Maybe you're only about getting your rocks off, I understand; a lot of people are like that, but it's really disruptive for others who are trying to solve the world's problems and not add to them by "acting up." It's a slow perversion of language I've seen over my lifetime, where sex and love are blurred. They are not the same thing at all. Anyway I've expressed my paradigm elsewhere and see no reason to make everyone suffer through repeating myself. I think your problem is I'm not all warm & fuzzy to your gayness. No, I'm not; I think personal choices carry personal consequences. Your gayness is none of my business and frankly I really didn't need to hear about it. What you choose to think about and feel really is your choice. You can choose to think about something else, you can process information differently and then feelings change. It's just energy being directed, after all, and the quality or quintessence of intent/purpose always shows up in the end. But personally, I really don't want a person confused about something so basic to their nature, handling bigger affairs that would have an impact upon my life. I find it annoying that gay people can't stop injecting sex and gay sex at that, into other subjects. As I understand, state of CA has proposed or even passed laws that allow cross-dressers into rest-rooms of the opposite sex, to teach in classrooms in full drag, storybooks with accounts of gay sex as early as kindergarten. If that's not perverting our youth, I don't know what is. It's not like they don't have enough challenges to master critical subjects without having to babysit the feelings of confused, debased adults demonstrating really low self discipline. Yes it's true even the God of the Old Testament had little patience with it. Anyway I'm more interested in timeless truths than modern fads or culture ("rockers.")

As for religion, that's another aspect of truth-seeking that will become more important as your loved ones pass on and begins to dawn that without an afterlife, there's not much to look forward to; then all those "religious" books will take on entirely new meaning (or not, depends on you.)




Thrival, the first thing I'm going to address is your "God" viewpoint. Like God doesn't make mistakes. Babies get born with flaws and physical defects all the time. If you were born with something wrong or different with you then you would want to live your life to the fullest as well. So how can you judge any of us for trying to live our lives to the fullest when you would do the same or suffer horribly if you were in the same situation, it's absurd. It's like saying "Oh! hey! you were born blind! Suck it up, that's how God wants you." or "You chose this, you chose to have everyone hate you, now let me throw rocks at you!" Don't you see how asinine that sounds? That's basically your opinion. You can try to sugar coat it but it's hate talk wrapped in a pretty pink box of your insecurity and ignorance. Nobody would choose to be LBGT/different with so much hate in the world, it makes zero sense.

Homosexuality is not a choice for a REAL/pure 100% heterosexual. If you think homosexuality is a choice then you must be bisexual because real heterosexuals have no choice in the matter. Likewise some homosexual people have no choice. I think most people are bi which is why it's such a wildly popular belief that homosexuality is a choice. The act of sex is a choice but the inner feelings and desires are NOT. The only thing LBGT people can do is choose to be happy which seems to burn up people like you. Nobody is hurting you, you don't have to read our posts and you certainly don't have to post hate/judgment. The world will keep spinning even if 90% of the world population has continuous homosexual relations, it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. You should try to be more considerate of other people's feelings and thank your God he didn't give you any "problems" like these. Most of our problems are just dealing with other people so you should be able to understand the frustration even if just from a theoretical viewpoint.

Hormones don't turn homosexuals straight, there have been experiments to try this.

Anyone who can't see how sexual orientation relates to alchemy probably isn't a very good alchemist. To one who truly understands alchemy everything is related, it is everywhere.

Why are you so against those who are different? Religion perhaps, which has no legitimacy at all. Culture/society, which is completely constructed. There isn't anything wrong with being gay and there is no argument you can possibly supply to prove otherwise. The truth is we came into this world with no guide, no set of rules, and nothing stopping us from living how we want. Of course there will be consequences, there are consequences for everything including inaction. I'll choose the consequences I can live with or make my life as good as possible and I would advise others to do the same.

Lunsola
06-21-2013, 10:18 PM
There is no hate from me, only what you project. I have said nothing of hate. Don't get me wrong, your views are very offensive to me, I don't like them. We LBGT as different people have to go through a lot of people in society who hate, I just can't imagine why anyone needs to add to it.

Oh? I'm pushing an agenda. That's not always such a bad thing... Yeah let's see...

Lunsola's Agenda: Reduce hate, provide understanding, explain situations, tell people it's okay to be different, and end judgement. It all sounds soooooo terrible!

Thrival's Agenda: Convince people heteros are superior, natural, gays choose to get hated, lbgt people are deviants/perverts, hate, hate, judgement, & hate.

You dodged a lot of my arguments, either you couldn't come up with any counter points or didn't get what I was saying. My points were all very logical, not emotional.

You think heterosexuals are superior just because they can breed? All those imbeciles out there breeding to no end, really. That's absurd. Any moron with half a brain regardless of sexual preference or gender can have a kid unless they are sterile/barren. What about all those heterosexuals who have kids and then abandon them? Sounds soooo superior, I'm really impressed.

Children are a ton of work and genetics are all illusion. Genetics don't determine anything more than looks and diseases/conditions you are susceptible to. No one's personal blood line means anything to me, that's my take. It's more about the spirit, that's where the nature of a human really comes from. The rest is illusion. One of the reasons so many kids turn out different than their parents want.

But you keep thinking that. Heteros are superior, hope you raise 15+ kids. You're a slave to the reproductive system with no benefits other than blind faith, the invisible opiate. Keep thinking you're passing on your genes like that's some kind of benefit. What did you accomplish really? Even if your genes did matter, how does that benefit you once you're gone from here? What exactly is your plan if one of your kids turn out to be gay or transgendered?

One of the reasons society is so against "different" people is because they don't want people to wake up to what a crummy deal traditional roles are and that goes for men and women. Raising kids is hard work and so is a proper marriage. But it's all illusion as well from their view. People will have kids regardless, maybe in broken homes but it's not something that can't be recovered from.

As for the bible stuff, people who follow that are literally dancing like a puppet for some guys who lived in caves 2000 years ago and thought the earth was flat. They are totally owned by an old design of illusion. Brainwashing clearly works and works best from an early age. Christianity is child abuse, as are many other religions. It clearly limits free thought and encourages black and white thinking.

I'll just drink my wine and chill over here while breeders slave to the system of illusion.

solomon levi
06-21-2013, 10:35 PM
Hi Solomon,

Of course none of us are straight. N dimensional fractals are infinitely rough in every dimension. Good to here of this. Are you intending to engage in a partnered Alchemy? If you have any questions perhaps I could provide useful information. I never let labels get in my way either. At a small college (1100) I was the largest focus of gossip despite having done nothing that would normally be the focus of gossip and I got labeled. A group of over fed elementary ed majors in particular were out to get me. I had run into them in my child psych courses. They took aside the girls I hung out with and warned them and everybody else that I was "dangerous". When pressed they warned specifically that I used too many big words. The girls they warned thought that was desirable characteristic.

How many partners do you mean? :) If just her, yeah, that's already happening "effortlessly"... there's an amazing
connection... remembering some past life stuff with her... when we're apart we can "touch" each other and feel it,
get chills and goosebumps... it's pretty wild to me. But I don't know how long this will last... things got really complicated
last night. I've had the first emotional day I can remember in many months... trying to transmute some stuff for her.
Having a major life decision for myself... I've already opened my door to the eternal... seems spirit might be asking me to
do another circulation and give up all to start afresh with her... i really have to be ignorant of so much that i know in
order to allow her to be herself. She's acquired a lot of shields in order to survive in life. In a way she sees me and at the
same time she has no idea who i am at a (super)conscious level like i do. I'm a bit frustrated and confused for the first time
in a long time, but clarity is dawning. :)
Let's not distract this topic. Please PM me if you want to discuss further, or start a relationship thread. :)
I'd be happy to talk more.

thrival
06-21-2013, 11:22 PM
There is no hate from me, only what you project. I have said nothing of hate. Don't get me wrong, your views are very offensive to me, I don't like them. We LBGT as different people have to go through a lot of people in society who hate, I just can't imagine why anyone needs to add to it.

Oh? I'm pushing an agenda. That's not always such a bad thing... Yeah let's see...

Lunsola's Agenda: Reduce hate, provide understanding, explain situations, tell people it's okay to be different, and end judgement. It all sounds soooooo terrible!

Thrival's Agenda: Convince people heteros are superior, natural, gays choose to get hated, lbgt people are deviants/perverts, hate, hate, judgement, & hate.

You are showing a rather typical gay propensity to engage in subjective dialogue, arguements and red herrings. What I said was that hetero is a priori to gay, more fundamental due to the FIRST purpose of sex, namely propagation. This is a natural fact and applies more broadly than just humans. Yes there is asexual propagation in some species, we just don't see it in humans. What I AM saying is that homosexuals are perverting the very purpose of sex by using it in ways the natural function was never intended. That is the very dictionary definition of perversion, I know homosexuals have difficulty owning up to it. "Hey, even though I'm a pervert doesn't mean I don't want you to think well of me." (heh-- human "feelings" again, vs. clear logic or nature observation/science.) It's not hateful to call things what they are. I am a bit annoyed how homosexuals co-opted the word gay to mean something else, and I know you're not done yet.


You dodged a lot of my arguments, either you couldn't come up with any counter points or didn't get what I was saying. My points were all very logical, not emotional.

You think heterosexuals are superior just because they can breed? All those imbeciles out there breeding to no end, really. That's absurd. Any moron with half a brain regardless of sexual preference or gender can have a kid unless they are sterile/barren. What about all those heterosexuals who have kids and then abandon them? Sounds soooo superior, I'm really impressed.

Children are a ton of work and genetics are all illusion. Genetics don't determine anything more than looks and diseases/conditions you are susceptible to. No one's personal blood line means anything to me, that's my take. It's more about the spirit, that's where the nature of a human really comes from. The rest is illusion. One of the reasons so many kids turn out different than their parents want.

But you keep thinking that. Heteros are superior, hope you raise 15+ kids. You're a slave to the reproductive system with no benefits other than blind faith, the invisible opiate. Keep thinking you're passing on your genes like that's some kind of benefit. What did you accomplish really? Even if your genes did matter, how does that benefit you once you're gone from here? What exactly is your plan if one of your kids turn out to be gay or transgendered?

No, I didn't dodge your "arguements" but I don't find them logical, but in a short-term, superficial, subjective ("feelings") kind of way, missing the big picture and then resorting to lesser distractions and red herrings, which tends to be a characteristic of gay thought processes. Heteros are only "superior" in the sense they can reproduce. This applies to pigs, flies, birds & alligators, etc., not just humans. Superior in the sense that only a fertile, heterosexual couple were able to produce YOU, and again, the FIRST purpose of sex being reproduction, vs. something else you would make of it. Of course not all couples make good parents is completely besides the point, you are arguing against the function of sex from a position of personal feelings again (preferences.) And you call me hateful for pointing out your logical failure. You are attacking me personally because I simply made the point that hetero sex allows for propagation-by-design, passing on genes (characteristics, attributes, the ability to manifest.) Matter is in fact a tool of the spirit. You are a tool, also. Are you a good tool or a defective one? (Just askin.') Oh and I didn't say reproduction is anyone's mandate/purpose, only that heteros have the capacity and they exercise it. It's just life, man. In my opinion, sex is over-rated, but homosexuals seem ruled by it, morning til night, exporting their issue (confusion) to as many as they come in contact. Apart from Carnivale/Mardi-Gras, I can't think of heteros having a parade about it.


One of the reasons society is so against "different" people is because they don't want people to wake up to what a crummy deal traditional roles are and that goes for men and women. Raising kids is hard work and so is a proper marriage. But it's all illusion as well from their view. People will have kids regardless, maybe in broken homes but it's not something that can't be recovered from.

As for the bible stuff, people who follow that are literally dancing like a puppet for some guys who lived in caves 2000 years ago and thought the earth was flat. They are totally owned by an old design of illusion. Brainwashing clearly works and works best from an early age. Christianity is child abuse, as are many other religions. It clearly limits free thought and encourages black and white thinking.

I'll just drink my wine and chill over here while breeders slave to the system of illusion.

YOU live in a cave, it's just made from different materials. It's not just about "society" but spirit (as you said.) Alchemy says that life (spirit) creates matter, not the obverse, so if you want to talk about spirit then admit HOW it creates (living) matter via hetero sex; it's how you arrived on Terra firma (or terra damnata.) As for the Bible, I rejected a lot in my childhood (oversexed) years and then as I matured, explored other belief systems for their greater or lesser value, coming back to cool, clear logic and expanded appreciation of the Creator's plan and methods.

Lunsola
06-22-2013, 04:28 AM
The only thing typical here is your deceivingly innocent banter about how hetero is superior. "Oh I'm totally fine with gays but they're inferior/defective." Everybody is defective in some way. You aren't perfect, nobody is. BTW, LBGT people can reproduce if they want to so your argument just fell through the floor. Artificial insemination has been around for a while as have surrogates. I'm sure after reading that you just went into a rage about how it's not a family unit, you alone do not define what a family unit is.

This whole perversion argument is the most asinine thing I've read in a while. Like heterosexuals aren't EXTREMELY perverted. Like heterosexuals NEVER have sex for pleasure. OH WAIT, they do. Almost every time they hook up it's for the purpose of fun, not procreation. And heteros flaunt it in everyone's faces too with public displays of affection. Everything you're saying is straight up prejudiced.

And yes, you are ignoring every argument/point you can't win. You need to check your own logic. You continually insult my arguments without a real explanation and claim they are things they are clearly not. So if anyone is using feelings instead of logic, it's you. All you say is that my arguments are illogical which they aren't, I've explained them very clearly through the process of logic using our most wonderful English language. Once again, it does not require a heterosexual couple to produce ME or YOU. It takes a male and a female who are both healthy, that's it. Or artificial insemination. Their orientations don't matter. Even a 100% homosexual of either side as long as they are fertile can produce children. We don't need your ideal family unit, we don't need your oppressive religion to do it either. And it's going to happen regardless of how many gays are on the planet.

As for the parades and why people get upset it's clearly because of people like you. The gay haters have grown a bit shyer in recent years. Just like with racism you will eventually be the extreme minority and will feel terrible about yourself and all the hate you've spewed.

Actually I live in a house and I have lifted many veils. Life is created currently by hetero sex but it's also created by artificial insemination. At some point when we technologically advance enough this point will diminish even further.

You, me, everyone reading this knows why you have to come in here and post your anti-gay stuff. We know why you want to say gays are inferior/defective. We know why you take everything as a personal insult. So every time you try to pretend different I get a good laugh.

thrival
06-22-2013, 09:23 AM
The only thing typical here is your deceivingly innocent banter about how hetero is superior. "Oh I'm totally fine with gays but they're inferior/defective." Everybody is defective in some way. You aren't perfect, nobody is. BTW, LBGT people can reproduce if they want to so your argument just fell through the floor. Artificial insemination has been around for a while as have surrogates. I'm sure after reading that you just went into a rage about how it's not a family unit, you alone do not define what a family unit is.

Lunsola:

Of course nobody's perfect, I never said otherwise. No, it doesn't take a heterosexual couple to reproduce, but it takes hetero-sex. "Artificial insemination," hmmm... how natural is that! So one violation of nature begets (and requires) another. So what have you got against the original design plan! Sounds like you have issues with your Maker. But I'm not being personal, I would say the same about anyone unhappy with or unable to make peace with their biological inheritance.


This whole perversion argument is the most asinine thing I've read in a while. Like heterosexuals aren't EXTREMELY perverted. Like heterosexuals NEVER have sex for pleasure. OH WAIT, they do. Almost every time they hook up it's for the purpose of fun, not procreation. And heteros flaunt it in everyone's faces too with public displays of affection. Everything you're saying is straight up prejudiced.

Sure heteros have sex for pleasure, God made it fun or reproduction would never happen. (It's pretty disgusting unless you're horny); but procreation was the first purpose of sex, so hetero-sexual "flaunting" is normal, gay flaunting, "not so much." It's a violation of basic design principles. (Yes, God is an engineer.)
LOL.


And yes, you are ignoring every argument/point you can't win. You need to check your own logic. You continually insult my arguments without a real explanation and claim they are things they are clearly not. So if anyone is using feelings instead of logic, it's you. All you say is that my arguments are illogical which they aren't, I've explained them very clearly through the process of logic using our most wonderful English language. Once again, it does not require a heterosexual couple to produce ME or YOU. It takes a male and a female who are both healthy, that's it. Or artificial insemination. Their orientations don't matter. Even a 100% homosexual of either side as long as they are fertile can produce children. We don't need your ideal family unit, we don't need your oppressive religion to do it either. And it's going to happen regardless of how many gays are on the planet.

Pity the poor children.


As for the parades and why people get upset it's clearly because of people like you. The gay haters have grown a bit shyer in recent years. Just like with racism you will eventually be the extreme minority and will feel terrible about yourself and all the hate you've spewed.

Actually, those who object to the gay lifestyle have become more shy for the completely unconstitutional laws being passed making gays a "special" protected class. As for me I go by "Love the sinner, hate the sin." (Homosexuality is a behaviour after all.) There's a lot of black-against-white racism and violence that goes unreported. As for typical parades, people like to celebrate their accomplishments; apart from diddling with each others' genitals inference, what do gay parades celebrate? I'm glad I don't have kids to be scandalized by the likes of same.


Actually I live in a house and I have lifted many veils. Life is created currently by hetero sex but it's also created by artificial insemination. At some point when we technologically advance enough this point will diminish even further.

Yah, I gathered the house part, what I meant to suggest is that a person's dwelling matters not-too-much and to presume where a person lived in a by-gone era, reflects their level of education or your superiority is just another faulty premise.


You, me, everyone reading this knows why you have to come in here and post your anti-gay stuff. We know why you want to say gays are inferior/defective. We know why you take everything as a personal insult. So every time you try to pretend different I get a good laugh.

Actually I don't have to post it, but it needs to be said for the record; alchemy deals with natural philosophy, and there's no harm in defining the parameters. If all Alchemists were gay, or irreligious, you might have a point, but they weren't/aren't, and you don't. I'm done now, bye.

Lunsola
06-22-2013, 06:24 PM
Lunsola:

Of course nobody's perfect, I never said otherwise. No, it doesn't take a heterosexual couple to reproduce, but it takes hetero-sex. "Artificial insemination," hmmm... how natural is that! So one violation of nature begets (and requires) another. So what have you got against the original design plan! Sounds like you have issues with your Maker. But I'm not being personal, I would say the same about anyone unhappy with or unable to make peace with their biological inheritance.

Nobody here is saying you said that. However; you are saying heteros have priority and are superior. Who cares if artificial insemination isn't what you consider natural? It works. Natural is just a word, an illusion. There are plenty of natural things that are to people's disliking. Natural does not equal superior. Ever heard of that stuff called technology? I don't have anything against the original design plan, I have something against people who try to claim it as a reason to bash LBGT people. There's no good reason for it.


Sure heteros have sex for pleasure, God made it fun or reproduction would never happen. (It's pretty disgusting unless you're horny); but procreation was the first purpose of sex, so hetero-sexual "flaunting" is normal, gay flaunting, "not so much." It's a violation of basic design principles. (Yes, God is an engineer.)
LOL.

Once again, normal is an illusion. Besides that you are making a distinction here you have no right to. You are not the ultimate God of the universe. Do you speak for God? Do you represent God? I severely doubt that. So what authority do you have here on normal, right, wrong and such? The bible? Absurd.


Pity the poor children.

Yes, I deeply pity the poor children that have to deal with people like you. I really hope if you have kids none of them turn out different, for both your sakes.


Actually, those who object to the gay lifestyle have become more shy for the completely unconstitutional laws being passed making gays a "special" protected class. As for me I go by "Love the sinner, hate the sin." (Homosexuality is a behaviour after all.) There's a lot of black-against-white racism and violence that goes unreported. As for typical parades, people like to celebrate their accomplishments; apart from diddling with each others' genitals inference, what do gay parades celebrate? I'm glad I don't have kids to be scandalized by the likes of same.

That's because we need them to be a special/protected class because people like you have such a huge problem with different people. Love the sinner, hate the sin is still a judgement, you don't actually have any proof LBGT people are doing anything wrong. We are celebrating accomplishments such as dispelling ignorance, inspiring freedom, and making progress so people like us can be free and happy. You obviously don't care about us or our suffering or you wouldn't say the things you do and would be more open minded to our problems.


Yah, I gathered the house part, what I meant to suggest is that a person's dwelling matters not-too-much and to presume where a person lived in a by-gone era, reflects their level of education or your superiority is just another faulty premise.

Obviously the dwelling matters not. The point was just a setup for the other half, a visual aid, or a setting. It was meant to be humorous. You have completely missed what I'm saying here. I'm not implying I'm superior just because I live in a house. You know nothing of my progress.


Actually I don't have to post it, but it needs to be said for the record; alchemy deals with natural philosophy, and there's no harm in defining the parameters. If all Alchemists were gay, or irreligious, you might have a point, but they weren't/aren't, and you don't. I'm done now, bye.

You don't have to and yet you keep posting it. It doesn't need to be said, that's just your hangup. Define all the parameters you want and good luck, you'll need it. Plenty of alchemists were gay and non religious which does not solely determine success but it can't hurt. Bye!

zoas23
06-22-2013, 07:53 PM
Well I can't possibly respond to the amount of hate from all the gays for my having an unapologetic heterosexual view, so I guess you are the lucky one I'll respond to, and probably just this once, because I've also noticed that for gay people, it never seems to end.

Probably what some people is talking about is not really your "unapologetic heterosexual point of view"...
I'm also heterosexual... and I'm not sorry about it either, nor I have any plan or intention to change such thing (mostly because I can't).

So probably the problem is your homophobia, not the fact that you are heterosexual.
You come out with a homophobic message and you expect people to respect you... when you show no respect for them... and try to make it look like you are talking from the point of view of God and Nature and they are talking about feelings.
... And finaly you pretend to be a victim of some sort of Gay Agenda and to be receiving hate.

There are some other heterosexuals in this world.... who actually like those gay parades that you hate so much. Probably because we like freedom.



There's a lot of black-against-white racism and violence that goes unreported.

??????????

Errr.... what?

(I'm mostly thinking that you forgot some sort of weird comment about the jews).

Since 1995 I attend to the gay parade of my city every year (and I'm heterosexual).

The idea that God doesn't like gays... I take it as an idea that is OK for an illiterate cowboy.
http://www.lgbtqnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/phelps.jpg

Just look at that guy and ASK yourself: "Do I really want to have so much in common with that kind of freaks?".

thrival
06-22-2013, 10:00 PM
Just look at that guy and ASK yourself: "Do I really want to have so much in common with that kind of freaks?".

Obviously not. I was just making the point that heterosexuality is the design plan for human life. Natural (biological) oddities occur on occasion, but a person who isn't happy about the gender nature gave them or who hankers for the same sex obviously has a very profound psychological problem (ingratitude/hatred toward their Maker) that I don't identify with or take responsibility for. I already made my point that isn't my job (or any truth-seeker's) to baby-sit personal feelings or personalities. Homosexuality violates natural design parameters, homosexuals are unable to reproduce with each other (the original purpose of sex) therefore must resort to "artificial" insemination (or adoption.) See the difference between artificial and natural per any good online dictionary. I guess homosexuals think they're somehow smarter than the original Design/Planner, which is (also) good for a laugh. That social experiment was already tried by ancient Greece/Rome and was a big flop. The problem is there's a limit to violating nature's laws on a planetary scale before she hits the reset button. Homosexuality has no valid comparison with racism. Homosexuality is a behavioral choice, race is something you were born into. I really don't care if you think I'm prejudiced or bigotted. Form follows function, and nature doesn't apologize. Alchemy deals with change-of-matter, purification of matter and ostensibly, the individual; make and eat a stone if you like, maybe it will correct the condition.

You attended a gay parade and you "liked" it; and your point is?

Seth-Ra
06-22-2013, 11:13 PM
Obviously not. I was just making the point that heterosexuality is the design plan for human life.

No, it is the natural design plan for reproduction - not living the life that reproduction manifests.


Natural (biological) oddities occur on occasion, but a person who isn't happy about the gender nature gave them or who hankers for the same sex obviously has a very profound psychological problem (ingratitude/hatred toward their Maker) that I don't identify with or take responsibility for.

Yes, they obviously have a mental or physical defect. But you imply that:

1) Defect = bad/wrong/evil, when infact everyone has one of some kind. My mother has a defective back/spine and is sometimes very pissy because of it - that isnt her fault, she is in constant pain. Just because your defect is different from another's, doesnt mean you are superior on the whole because of it.

2) That the sole cause of the defect is ingratitude/hate towards the Maker, when that is rarely the case. Most that ive spoken with try to make the most out of it by allowing themselves to view things from the other perspective, hence why they often speak of a union of the Dual Sides within themselves - an alchemical marriage internally.

You assume and project, which is causing some major logic flaws.


I already made my point that isn't my job (or any truth-seeker's) to baby-sit personal feelings or personalities.

Yeah, you keep mentioning "feelings" as if its something people can help. Tell me, if i drive a sword through your sack - can you control your feelings? Its like that idea of everything being an illusion - when i assure you that i can prove to every fiber of your being that me and my weapons are real even if it means making every fiber scream out in agony. Its all feelings - its all bioelectrical energy - but all you can do is try to suppress the amount you acknowledge it, but it doesnt cease its existence, nor put it anymore in your control. So, what you are advocating, and indeed preaching as natural/proper, is suppression of whats there rather than rectification of it.



Homosexuality violates natural design parameters, homosexuals are unable to reproduce with each other (the original purpose of sex) therefore must resort to "artificial" insemination (or adoption.) See the difference between artificial and natural per any good online dictionary. I guess homosexuals think they're somehow smarter than the original Design/Planner, which is (also) good for a laugh.

Nah, just equally as smart as the person who couldnt see, and then put on some glasses, or got eye surgery. Or the person that got cancer, and then got treated. Or the person born with no leg, but got a prosthetic one and runs everywhere they go now. You can pick and choose when you wanna play god and ok it - but whats good for one is good for all, and as proof of that, its happening, regardless of yours, or anyone else's bitching about it.


That social experiment was already tried by ancient Greece/Rome and was a big flop. The problem is there's a limit to violating nature's laws on a planetary scale before she hits the reset button. Homosexuality has no valid comparison with racism. Homosexuality is a behavioral choice, race is something you were born into. I really don't care if you think I'm prejudiced or bigotted. Form follows function, and nature doesn't apologize. Alchemy deals with change-of-matter, purification of matter and ostensibly, the individual; make and eat a stone if you like, maybe it will correct the condition.


Twasnt a social experiment, no more than what all life on this planet is. Its just life, and people living.

Frankly, if God wants to hit the reset button, then i say good. Lets change form again - maybe next re-roll we'll get androgynous bodies and this particular argument can fuck off. (hehe pun :cool: )

You say here its a behavioral choice, but earlier you said it was a psychological or biological defect... so people choose their defects (?) : my mother chose for her spine to be crooked and brittle as fuck so that she is in constant pain and the pain-management drugs barely take the edge off... my dad and i choose for our knees to hurt randomly or with excess use - right now someone somewhere is choosing for some person to crash their vehicle into them leaving them as a cripple or vegetable... :p

Surely you can see the wishy-washy-flaw of the logic youre using - or maybe you choose to not. :rolleyes:


When i say they are defective, i dont mean it as a bad thing. The Japanese have an art called kintsugi, where a broken piece of pottery is repaired using gold. It is said to give the pottery uniqueness and a history/story to tell.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/9d401730e60563626987684b8f64b3df/tumblr_mjtuy9kgdN1qckn58o1_500.jpg

So, while i have no problem calling a crack a crack, i do have a problem with being mean about someone else's cracks, cause they are in a different pattern from yours, especially when we are all made from the same clay, and all have the same golden-goal. :)


Im hetero too, btw. :cool:





~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
06-22-2013, 11:47 PM
Ha! on the topic of artificial insemination... how natural is that?...
well, all of us came from the "gods" artificially inseminating "prehistoric" "man". how natural are you? is everyone? :)
Natural is relative. Knowledge is ALWAYS partial.

solomon levi
06-22-2013, 11:50 PM
Probably what some people is talking about is not really your "unapologetic heterosexual point of view"...
I'm also heterosexual... and I'm not sorry about it either, nor I have any plan or intention to change such thing (mostly because I can't).

So probably the problem is your homophobia, not the fact that you are heterosexual.
You come out with a homophobic message and you expect people to respect you... when you show no respect for them... and try to make it look like you are talking from the point of view of God and Nature and they are talking about feelings.
... And finaly you pretend to be a victim of some sort of Gay Agenda and to be receiving hate.

There are some other heterosexuals in this world.... who actually like those gay parades that you hate so much. Probably because we like freedom.



??????????

Errr.... what?

(I'm mostly thinking that you forgot some sort of weird comment about the jews).

Since 1995 I attend to the gay parade of my city every year (and I'm heterosexual).

The idea that God doesn't like gays... I take it as an idea that is OK for an illiterate cowboy.
http://www.lgbtqnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/phelps.jpg

Just look at that guy and ASK yourself: "Do I really want to have so much in common with that kind of freaks?".

Lovely post Zoas23 :)

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 12:14 AM
Obviously not. I was just making the point that heterosexuality is the design plan for human life. Natural (biological) oddities occur on occasion, but a person who isn't happy about the gender nature gave them or who hankers for the same sex obviously has a very profound psychological problem (ingratitude/hatred toward their Maker) that I don't identify with or take responsibility for. I already made my point that isn't my job (or any truth-seeker's) to baby-sit personal feelings or personalities. Homosexuality violates natural design parameters, homosexuals are unable to reproduce with each other (the original purpose of sex) therefore must resort to "artificial" insemination (or adoption.) See the difference between artificial and natural per any good online dictionary. I guess homosexuals think they're somehow smarter than the original Design/Planner, which is (also) good for a laugh. That social experiment was already tried by ancient Greece/Rome and was a big flop. The problem is there's a limit to violating nature's laws on a planetary scale before she hits the reset button. Homosexuality has no valid comparison with racism. Homosexuality is a behavioral choice, race is something you were born into. I really don't care if you think I'm prejudiced or bigotted. Form follows function, and nature doesn't apologize. Alchemy deals with change-of-matter, purification of matter and ostensibly, the individual; make and eat a stone if you like, maybe it will correct the condition.

You attended a gay parade and you "liked" it; and your point is?

Again, who doesn't have very profound psychological problems? People think they are their bodies! How insane is that?!
You actually are focussing on only the homosexuals as messed up when the more objective truth is that everyone is.
Straight does not equal more spiritual or more connected to source or more awake or more direct vision, etc...
Please explain how/why a straight person has a better chance of waking up, realizing source, or whatever you call it.

It is ignorance on your part to say homosexuality is a behavioral choice. How many homosexuals told you that? Why not
take your knowledge from the horse's mouth?

My personal knowledge/seeing is that it IS a choice made on a light/life review plane, not on the physical, but between incarnations...
so people are born gay. I don't doubt that some people can choose during life, but it seems to be a minority. Is this choice psychologically
messed up? sure!. So is the choice to buy Gucci instead of Levis. Come on, dude. Seriously? There is nothing natural about social conscious
humans... they are all programmed and psycho and schizo and ignorant of source. Being born from a vagina doesn't make you normal/natural.
That's absurd. Everything you're saying is relative and conditioned by your belief that gays are somehow inferior/incorrect/inappropriate/abominations, etc.
Everyone is inferior, etc relative to something! This is silly. Even the God you speak for is relative and conditioned, but you imagine it is the only.
Gays are part of the only God... they exist, just like straights. Existence is God. If it is, God allowed it to be... said it was "good". You're talking about
some conditioned bible god or image instead of seeing That Which Is.

I'm not going to draw this out. There's nothing disputable or worth arguing. I just have to give my 2 cents. You probably won't agree, but your God is
in your mind and mine is before my eyes/actual... so who is psychological? Gays exist... not psychological. God doesn't like gays... psychological.
Is that not simple?

Orbital
06-23-2013, 12:35 AM
What is normal? Diversity is great and it's fun to romanticize differences in sexual taste and orientation. There's a reason why things are diverse in sexual orientation, and there's also a reason why certain traits and orientations are repressed (oppressed?). The particular orientations that allow a species to continue to thrive are what has carried us to where we are now. Yes, there is such a thing as normal. You can thank your lucky stars that your parents knew how to put two and two together, cause if they didn't your thoughts on the subject wouldn't be here.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 12:48 AM
What are the fruits of sexual homogenization beyond self gratification and personal identity?

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 12:52 AM
Well, again we have artificial insemination. Why isn't that normal? How is science not normal?
Maybe someone here came from frozen sperm. :) Maybe a gay man's frozen sperm?

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 12:57 AM
What are the fruits of sexual homogenization beyond self gratification and personal identity?

Everything bears fruit. What are the fruits of anything? Experience.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 01:26 AM
Key word "artificial".

Orbital
06-23-2013, 01:28 AM
Can a man fecundate another man, or same for a pair of women? Is something or anything born from that fecundation? I've never heard of a woman inseminating another woman and giving birth (fruit) to a child have you?

thrival
06-23-2013, 01:31 AM
No, it is the natural design plan for reproduction - not living the life that reproduction manifests.

Seth: Sex is an integral part of life, it has a purpose (reproduction.) Granted the Catholic church has had a problem with birth control for years, for the very reason that it subverts the purpose. They also have a problem with masterbation. Their alternative is people can abstain. What I see is this culture and generation has fallen quite a ways from what i remember as a kid. The young especially, are missing whole concepts. Life has become all about gratification of feelings, that doesn't necessarily lead to correct conclusions. We have laws that regulate or prohibit certain forms of feeling gratification, theft ("I want what you have") or murder. Maybe a better way to put it is simply ask what positive purpose certain sexual practices serve; also recognizing that good and pure things can be corrupted, adulterated, perverted. Religion has taken upon itself to try and steer man's thinking into constructive use of his mind and energies. Generally speaking, religion talks about an after-life and personal accountability, due to consequences that extend beyond a person's immediate perceptions.


Yes, they obviously have a mental or physical defect. But you imply that:

1) Defect = bad/wrong/evil, when infact everyone has one of some kind. My mother has a defective back/spine and is sometimes very pissy because of it - that isnt her fault, she is in constant pain. Just because your defect is different from another's, doesnt mean you are superior on the whole because of it.

2) That the sole cause of the defect is ingratitude/hate towards the Maker, when that is rarely the case. Most that ive spoken with try to make the most out of it by allowing themselves to view things from the other perspective, hence why they often speak of a union of the Dual Sides within themselves - an alchemical marriage internally.

Yes, everyone has a defect, DNA, telomeres, yada-yada. Mine is that I'm still missing the god particle that lets me wink in and out of different dimensions at whim. But you make the issue below, that we often try to correct our defects to make life more pleasant or at least less onerous. If your mother finds a natural remedy, through you or some other channel, I hope she uses it.

Maybe ingratitude isn't the cause of her problem, but it is some people's. Or too much time on their hands, or not having suffered real adversity that they like to make things up. Some homosexuals really do think their particular perversion makes them special-- really overt, bizarre "trisexuals," alien life forms, what-have-you. The entertainment value wears thin when you consider these people really have no shame where the young are concerned. It would be different if they kept their perversions behind closed doors, but they're not happy with that, they have a larger agenda, to put it into national classrooms as early as kindergarten. I mentioned cross-dressers wanting to use girl's bathrooms, teaching in full drag, etc. It's a big distraction, a defect they expect normal people to suffer through, even accept as a "new normal." It's not.


You assume and project, which is causing some major logic flaws.

No I'm not.


Yeah, you keep mentioning "feelings" as if its something people can help. Tell me, if i drive a sword through your sack - can you control your feelings? Its like that idea of everything being an illusion - when i assure you that i can prove to every fiber of your being that me and my weapons are real even if it means making every fiber scream out in agony. Its all feelings - its all bioelectrical energy - but all you can do is try to suppress the amount you acknowledge it, but it doesnt cease its existence, nor put it anymore in your control. So, what you are advocating, and indeed preaching as natural/proper, is suppression of whats there rather than rectification of it.

It's not the same. Physical pain from physical causes is one thing. Gay people are trying to change the culture. Consider gut bacteria; there are healthy (lactic-acid producing) and unhealthy (toxic) forms. The toxic ones kill the host.


Nah, just equally as smart as the person who couldnt see, and then put on some glasses, or got eye surgery. Or the person that got cancer, and then got treated. Or the person born with no leg, but got a prosthetic one and runs everywhere they go now. You can pick and choose when you wanna play god and ok it - but whats good for one is good for all, and as proof of that, its happening, regardless of yours, or anyone else's bitching about it.

Except that they don't see their condition as a defect at all. Their problem is that they want everyone else to see gay sex and gay lifestyle as normal, in your face. I'm not playing God or bitching but simply stating a position. Yes, bad (and good) things are happening all sorts of places with/out our awareness. Note I only use the word "bad" in a relative sense of something affecting a person's well-being in a negative way. Obviously you having a tapeworm is bad for you but good for the worm.


Twasnt a social experiment, no more than what all life on this planet is. Its just life, and people living.

Well the experiment happened, whether it was conscious, intentional or not, and we have the historical record to study and reflect upon (Caligula.)


Frankly, if God wants to hit the reset button, then i say good. Lets change form again - maybe next re-roll we'll get androgynous bodies and this particular argument can fuck off. (hehe pun :cool: )

Except that spiritual progress doesn't occur enmasse, but individually, and at one's personal rate. Becoming androgynous might be foremost in one person's minds and the most remote in another. I just don't want someone else's perversions forced upon me and I care enough about young people not wanting it forced upon them either. Item: gay sexual assaults (http://www.wnd.com/2013/05/military-suffers-wave-of-gay-sex-assaults/)have increased in the military since don't-ask, don't tell was revoked.


You say here its a behavioral choice, but earlier you said it was a psychological or biological defect... so people choose their defects (?) : my mother chose for her spine to be crooked and brittle as fuck so that she is in constant pain and the pain-management drugs barely take the edge off... my dad and i choose for our knees to hurt randomly or with excess use - right now someone somewhere is choosing for some person to crash their vehicle into them leaving them as a cripple or vegetable... :p

Sex is a behaviour and unless you're unconscious when it's happening to/for you, it's a choice. People entertain certain ideas and then they act on them. If it's a defect, and people have mentally fallen through the cracks, then calling it such is a helpful first step, but the gay community won't have that. What you or I might call a defect they regard as a positive attribute and a badge of pride, hence the gay parades.


Surely you can see the wishy-washy-flaw of the logic youre using - or maybe you choose to not. :rolleyes:

I think you are maybe not as well-read or just naive.


When i say they are defective, i dont mean it as a bad thing. The Japanese have an art called kintsugi, where a broken piece of pottery is repaired using gold. It is said to give the pottery uniqueness and a history/story to tell.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/9d401730e60563626987684b8f64b3df/tumblr_mjtuy9kgdN1qckn58o1_500.jpg

You are presuming that gay people see themselves broken and needing to be fixed. They don't see themselve that way at all.
In fact California recently made it illegal for a therapist or minister to try and coach a gay person into a hetero point of view.


So, while i have no problem calling a crack a crack, i do have a problem with being mean about someone else's cracks, cause they are in a different pattern from yours, especially when we are all made from the same clay, and all have the same golden-goal. :)

Personal homosexual lifestyle is destructive enough, but it's when it goes viral on a societal level that the real damage is done, (innocence lost.) Because in the end, society really needs kindness and sanity to survive. Homosexuals don't care about sanity because homosexuality isn't rational behaviour, it's about "feelings," and not all feelings are worthy of respect. Some are just perverse, and a different response is called for than appeasement. What I find annoying is how homosexuals like to inject the topic of homosexual sex or gender issues into topics that have nothing to do with. The boy-scouts are a case in point. It used to be an organization about service, character-building, acquiring skills and good clean fun in nature (camping, recreation) but homosexuals wanted in (http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/22650165/local-churches-plan-to-cut-ties) and of course brought sex in as a theme. Whether that institution will survive is still up in the air.


Im hetero too, btw. :cool:





~Seth-Ra

Orbital
06-23-2013, 01:34 AM
If a man inseminated a man, and he gave birth that would be very abnormal. It's like a bee not pollinating and that plant not bearing its fruit or germination taking place spontaneously...that's abnormal

Orbital
06-23-2013, 01:41 AM
Sorry... I meant a be not pollinating and the plant giving fruit

Orbital
06-23-2013, 01:50 AM
Solomon Levi,

Experience is just a way of over intellectualizing what could actually takes place. Sure experience is a fruit that can exist as an idea, but is it an actual and tangible one? If I had gay sex those experiences would produce nothing but ideas. If I were to fecundate a women, that is a tangible REAL experience that can be produced for all to share tangibly.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 01:58 AM
"Whatever the thinker thinks the prover proves". -Robert Anton Wilson. I'm losing faith here... It seems like people are trying to prove falsities and not actualities. Defending beliefs DO NOT lead to truth.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 02:18 AM
Now, the strict answer to this thread is no and yes ( probably a mind fuck by Androgynus, thank you). A person can orient themselves any way they wish sexually. Heck, they could even name themselves boy or girl, but that doesn't change who they are physically.

thrival
06-23-2013, 02:26 AM
Now, the strict answer to this thread is no and yes ( probably a mind fuck by Androgynus, thank you). A person can orient themselves any way they wish sexually. Heck, they could even name themselves boy or girl, but that doesn't change who they are physically.

THANK YOU!

Orbital
06-23-2013, 02:31 AM
Act or pretend whatever you want to be, change your genitalia, and pump yourself full of opposite hormones, believe what you want, but that does not change what you were created as. You can change it, sure.. the tech is here now, but you cannot say that you are not what you were designed to be physically. Oh, the struggle against the self... Que sera sera

Orbital
06-23-2013, 02:57 AM
If I can reflect on the beginning of this thread... Remember, culture is top-down, not grass roots as most would believe. Who produces these mainstream artists? What does Garbage mean, what does Bowie mean? Heck, how do you know these mainstream artists crated that which is finally produced?

Know thyself my friends.

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 02:58 AM
Artificial is relative. Compared to what? It's the virtual photons that make "real" photons possible!
Artificial is just a word. You can induce OBEs by artificial electrical means - they're no less real.
Who says fecundity is the only valid reason for genitalia? Have you never done a helicopter dance? lol. Just kidding. :)
I've heard of a woman inseminated by the spirit. I heard of men who breast feed. Are limitations absolute or optional/intentional?

More important (relative to my view) can a man love another man? Yes he can. Can he nourish his life, cultivate his soul? Yes, he can.
There are other ways to acquire babies if you want them. Must they be less loved because they are not your own flesh and blood? No.

When we ask a question, it's relative to the asker... they have selected what THEY think is the essential factor. A million people
can agree. That doesn't make it absolute. It's relative. Fecundity is significant to you. Love is significant to me. Must one of us be wrong?

Lunsola
06-23-2013, 03:08 AM
First I would just like to say thanks to all who have joined in on the good fight, it means a great deal to me to have supporters who are so kind and thoughtful.

Now as for the haters, it's really just sad. You guys keep ignoring arguments and reciting the same justification for hatred. Your best arguments which are a joke are either "The bible says", "this isn't normal", or "Reproduction justifies my views!" and you can only repeat the same thing over and over in different words. Something about humans just loves to hate and they will do anything they can to justify it. The reason we have to stop hate in it's tracks is because people like Thrival and Orbital would burn us at the stake with a grand smile if they could. Don't even try to deny this can't happen. Christians literally burnt women alive at the stake for even being accused of being a witch. There's a very dark history with the people who follow the christian faith.

Thrival and Orbital, you guys have ignored so many good arguments I partially believe you are trolling at this point.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 03:09 AM
Solomon Levi,

I never said a man could not love another man. Artificial is relative, then why did you even bring it up? And how did OBE's now enter this conversation? When did I say anything was wrong?

Hey man, are we in the pursuit of truth or are we just kickin it with our homies here?

Orbital
06-23-2013, 03:11 AM
Lunsola, think deep. Who are the real trollers here?

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 03:16 AM
Solomon Levi,

Experience is just a way of over intellectualizing what could actually takes place. Sure experience is a fruit that can exist as an idea, but is it an actual and tangible one? If I had gay sex those experiences would produce nothing but ideas. If I were to fecundate a women, that is a tangible REAL experience that can be produced for all to share tangibly.

Haha! Honestly, saying experience is underintellectualising it to me. It is a generic, homogeneous answer.
But I can see your point of view.
Friend, "ideas" is a tangible world on another frequency. It's relative. Just cuz we emphasize matter at this particular size doesn't
mean ideas aren't matter of a much smaller quantum size. Ideas can actually vary in size/frequency. Alchemy teaches one homogeneous substance
of which all is made... ideas, rocks, etc...
Ideas are not nothing. Things come AFTER ideas, FROM ideas. Things are less real/eternal than ideas. Can you see relativity?

Lunsola
06-23-2013, 03:17 AM
Lunsola, think deep. Who are the real trollers here?

Apparently from your view the people with the most logical points and well thought out posts.

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 03:17 AM
Act or pretend whatever you want to be, change your genitalia, and pump yourself full of opposite hormones, believe what you want, but that does not change what you were created as. You can change it, sure.. the tech is here now, but you cannot say that you are not what you were designed to be physically. Oh, the struggle against the self... Que sera sera

This is just a body view. You are not taking into consideration the soul, let alone spirit which is neither male or female.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 03:20 AM
Perhaps you guys are right, and nature is a lier. If the truth is not to be found in the natural world then where should I look?

Orbital
06-23-2013, 03:22 AM
What is created homogenously on the natural world Soloman?

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 03:23 AM
Solomon Levi,

I never said a man could not love another man. Artificial is relative, then why did you even bring it up? And how did OBE's now enter this conversation? When did I say anything was wrong?

Hey man, are we in the pursuit of truth or are we just kickin it with our homies here?

And i never said you did say that. :)
I wasn't the one who brought up artificial insemination.
OBEs entered because they can be "naturally" and "artificially" produced, just like humans.
I didn't say you said anything was wrong.
I'm not in the pursuit of truth... because I've discovered it is always relative. I'm in the pursuit of wholeness, you could say.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 03:26 AM
Ideas are everything... Look around you Solomon, what you see that exists man- made in this world is because of ideas. Heck, isn't consciouness an idea?

Lunsola
06-23-2013, 03:27 AM
Perhaps you guys are right, and nature is a lier. If the truth is not to be found in the natural world then where should I look?

More like nature does weird stuff, and dogma is a liar that turns "weird stuff" into evil, hated stuff.

If you are seriously looking for advice which I have doubts about then I will say that It's not so much that nature lies, it's that you are incorrectly observing it. Everything has a purpose just as everyone has a purpose. Look inside yourself for the answers but be open to all views, regardless of where they come from.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 03:29 AM
Well Solomon, I'm glad you said that. Every thing you say has lost all credibility to me because of you lack for wanting to find truth. Enjoy your chaos, as I pursue the cosmos brother.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 03:35 AM
Sorry, not all, but most. Be in nature my friend...

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 03:42 AM
If asking me, as i said, there is no Truth to be looking for... it's all relative. Maybe that's the truth. :)
Nature doesn't lie... lie and truth are relative.
In the quantum world you have all kinds of relatively contradictory and relatively impossible events.
You won't find the Truth there either; you'll just find other perspectives. That's what I pursue... more!
I will never find an end - there isn't one.

What is created homogeneously on the natural world? I don't know - it's relative. One could say atoms - everything is made of atoms (except smaller things).
Alchemists say their mercury is a water homogeneous to gold which is why it melts in it without violence. Personally i think violence is pretty natural.

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 03:44 AM
Ideas are everything... Look around you Solomon, what you see that exists man- made in this world is because of ideas. Heck, isn't consciouness an idea?

Yes. Agreed.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 03:47 AM
Truth for some is relative and for others it's universal... Se la vie

Orbital
06-23-2013, 03:48 AM
It's hard to throw pride aside and other attributes to find it, but is that not alchemy?

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 03:49 AM
Well Solomon, I'm glad you said that. Every thing you say has lost all credibility to me because of you lack for wanting to find truth. Enjoy your chaos, as I pursue the cosmos brother.

The cosmos isn't truth, nor is the whole chaos. But thank you. I am enjoying it tremendously.
The whole includes cosmos and chaos and anything else one can imagine or not imagine.
There was no lack of wanting to find truth. I used to want that, then i evolved to where I am now.

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 03:53 AM
Truth for some is relative and for others it's universal... Se la vie

Agreed. Which means it's relative to the individual. :)

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 04:03 AM
It's hard to throw pride aside and other attributes to find it, but is that not alchemy?

To find truth? For me truth left with pride and ego. That is alchemy indeed.
The ego believes it's a fixed thing when it is actually an idea... it gives itself continuity which it doesn't actually have, etc.
Truth is the same - it's not fixed. Scientists are discovering new truths all the time that make the old truths relative.

What is an absolute truth? If it's so true and absolute it should be obvious/apparent to everyone.

We're way off topic. Gonna have to split this thread.

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 04:09 AM
Well Solomon, I'm glad you said that. Every thing you say has lost all credibility to me because of you lack for wanting to find truth. Enjoy your chaos, as I pursue the cosmos brother.

But relativity is credible. It's the absolute we have no proof of. :) But i don't care if I'm credible to you or not. Your path is best for you.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 04:19 AM
Of course relativity is credible ( at times), relativity is a pursuit of Truth. What is wholeness without Truth?

I do not place my faith in science. People treat science just as dogmatically as they do organized religion.

Yes the ego believes, but does the soul not have faith?

I'm sorry, but you're a relativist and I'm a universalist. Truth matters more to me than anything relative. Relative=ego no? Relative is ego, universal is soul. No?

Orbital
06-23-2013, 04:28 AM
Solomon Levi,

It seems you even use the word "Levi" relatively. Hahaha

Orbital
06-23-2013, 04:32 AM
If there is no truth to be found or had then I suppose we should all just stop what we're doing that's worthwhile... What's the point right?

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 04:40 AM
Of course relativity is credible ( at times), relativity is a pursuit of Truth. What is wholeness without Truth?

I do not place my faith in science. People treat science just as dogmatically as they do organized religion.

Yes the ego believes, but does the soul not have faith?

I'm sorry, but you're a relativist and I'm a universalist. Truth matters more to me than anything relative. Relative=ego no? Relative is ego, universal is soul. No?

I'm an All/Pan-ist, including relative and absolute/universal. I don't know what All/Pan means to everyone, but to me it means excluding nothing including excluding something.
That is my highest "truth". I am not a pole,half or partialist which a relativist is. So what is this universal truth that matters so much to you? If you're pursuing it that means
you haven't found it... if you haven't found it how do you know it is important? Seems to me you're doing the same thing I am, pursuing the infinite more, only perhaps
you haven't realized it is infinite, an infinite pursuit, which means you can't find/end.

No, relative doesn't mean ego. I know what you mean... that's a stage, a version of relative. It's like "change is the only constant"... "relative is the only universal".
They're not different things... they're different views of the same one thing.

thrival
06-23-2013, 04:46 AM
Trolling simply because we disagree? Ultimately it comes down to the simple fact that gay sex serves no purpose.

And the quote by Robert A. Heinlein: "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity."


First I would just like to say thanks to all who have joined in on the good fight, it means a great deal to me to have supporters who are so kind and thoughtful.

Now as for the haters, it's really just sad. You guys keep ignoring arguments and reciting the same justification for hatred. Your best arguments which are a joke are either "The bible says", "this isn't normal", or "Reproduction justifies my views!" and you can only repeat the same thing over and over in different words. Something about humans just loves to hate and they will do anything they can to justify it. The reason we have to stop hate in it's tracks is because people like Thrival and Orbital would burn us at the stake with a grand smile if they could. Don't even try to deny this can't happen. Christians literally burnt women alive at the stake for even being accused of being a witch. There's a very dark history with the people who follow the christian faith.

Thrival and Orbital, you guys have ignored so many good arguments I partially believe you are trolling at this point.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 04:49 AM
It sounds like youre just defending your pride and walls that you've built and perhaps even your friends here. I came here looking for truth, and I still have faith that there is a tremendous amount of truth to be found in alchemy, not just mere relativistic bullshit. It's sad really. This site is just as corrupted as society as a whole. I can't even speak of the programming and indoctrination that is taking place without being told to talk about it on another thread, even though it applies to almost everything. Most are scared to touch the subject because that means they really have to look at who they are and why they think the way they do. If you can't examine yourself and why you think the way you do because of cultural indoctrination then I fail to see how someone can become adept in the practice.

Truth exists. I cannot quarrel with you.

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 04:53 AM
If there is no truth to be found or had then I suppose we should all just stop what we're doing that's worthwhile... What's the point right?

Kind of answered this above. The journey is the goal. The point is there is no point... etc.
If you stop it's because your ego believes there's no point.
If you go it's because the ego believes there is a point.
To stop or go without believing, just for the experience/journey/hell of it is non-ego.
The action doesn't change, the actor disappears (in non-ego).
This is my understanding/experience. It may not be for you.
It's not like i can say this and you can just try it/do it. Life has to bring you to it.
You shouldn't believe relativity or truthlessness or anything IMO. You should keep pursuing the truth IMO.

Lunsola
06-23-2013, 05:06 AM
Trolling simply because we disagree? Ultimately it comes down to the simple fact that gay sex serves no purpose.

And the quote by Robert A. Heinlein: "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity."

No, I clearly stated exactly why I thought you were trolling. Because you ignore tons of arguments/points and keep reciting the same stuff or more hatred/judgement. Like just now, it's like you didn't even bother to read what I wrote. Everything serves a purpose which includes gay sex, if you can't see it or aren't open to that then I can't help you. Well, at least the quote you posted makes a lot of sense, I can't argue with that.

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 05:08 AM
I don't wish to quarrel. I'm just answering as best as i can.
Truth does exist, as an infinite number of relative truths. This is my wisdom in all honesty.
I'm not playing games with you or having any motives. I'm just communicating my greatest vision/truth.
The answer is always "both"... i always seek the more encompassing... certainly part is not truth relative to the whole...
but there is no whole in infinity, no body, no border.... I am explaining as best as I can.
The whole cannot be found because it is not a thing/body with borders... the Truth cannot be known because it encompasses all truth.
Things that can be known are entities, things, defined separate beings within the whole infinite being. We can only know relative truth.
If there is an absolute truth, it cannot be known because it is not quantisized/limited/defined. The absolute truth is indeed the utmost
and deserving of your praise and seeking, but you cannot "find" it. You see?

solomon levi
06-23-2013, 05:09 AM
I'm not feeling hatred from Orbital.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 05:10 AM
Solomon Levi,

Man, you've done a double take on most your words here. I hope the people following this thread revert back to what you've said. I'm on no witch-hunt, but wow either I have a lack of understanding your lexicon or the English language is lost on me.

Back to the discussion at hand...
Diversity in sexual orientation and gender identity...
Do you think people hold their truths or beliefs on this subject because of the role society and culture has played on their minds? Androgynus touched on David Bowie... What does Bowie mean? Do you think the people that put money (and lots of it) to produce these artists had their own initiative in creating their own alchemical pursuits on an unwitting society? Are we victims of this, and do you think there is truth beyond certain types of marketing against people?

Orbital
06-23-2013, 05:16 AM
Have you ever listened to the lyrics of the songs of some of the mainstream artists that are backed by major labels who actually create their own alchemical pursuits against society for their gain? Even the names of mainstream groups deserve inspection.., what does the mainstream medias' pursuits mean to diversity in sexual orientation and gender ID?

Lunsola
06-23-2013, 05:17 AM
Yeah I'm not picking up on a strong hate from him but it's often very masked. At the very least he is very judgmental with the society corruption stuff.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 05:25 AM
Lunsola, society is not corrupted? Turn on the tv and especially watch the commercials. Count the logical fallacies. Marketeers are not in the business to tell you the truth. Have you seen the bbc documentary titled, "the century of the self" and are you familiar with Edward Bernays and the use of propaganda against societies??

Propaganda= alchemy

Lunsola
06-23-2013, 05:28 AM
It's all about perspective. I don't see what you call corruption necessarily as a bad thing. Live and let live. Some things only appear as a logical fallacy because one started with a false premise. Like sexual purity, does it really matter? Probably not, I mean how would I know? I certainly won't take some 2000 year old guy's view on it who didn't know the earth isn't flat or thought there was a big bearded guy floating around in the sky.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 05:36 AM
Lunsola, again I ask. Are you familiar with wide-spread propaganda? Have you seen, "the century of the self"? Look it up on YouTube type in, "full-length century of the self". It's like 1-2 hours long. Welcome to mind control. Culture is not your friend.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 05:38 AM
People can believe whatever they want. It's like getting busted by the police for breaking a certain law but not knowing the law existed...

Lunsola
06-23-2013, 05:39 AM
What you call propaganda some call progress. I might watch that later, I don't have time right now although I'm pretty sure I get the point already. Still, it's all relative. Not everybody will agree with any culture that has been setup or the way others choose to live their lives. That's why I love freedom so much, we can all do what we want. It's a truly great thing.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 05:40 AM
You think the cops give a damn you didn't know there was a law for what you broke? Especially when the prisons are being privatized? Yeah, that means jails are for- profit in most places now.. Meditate on that...

Orbital
06-23-2013, 05:43 AM
It's sad you let your pride get in the way of finding truth. It really hurts me. Take the time to watch the documentary. Please.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 05:44 AM
When people are propagandized how are they free???

Lunsola
06-23-2013, 05:54 AM
Orbital, I've been nothing but reasonable and open minded in this thread. You are clearly projecting on me, I'm just explaining my points/arguments. I said I would give the video a chance later. You should start reading my posts more carefully, respond to my points, reply without projecting on me, or insulting me. If you don't then I am going to just start ignoring your posts as I am not drawn to negativity and I don't have to deal with it if I choose not to.

Edit: I just read your other posts. Triple posting really clutters up the thread, I would recommend editing or waiting until later to post more. It helps keep the forum clean and is much appreciated by all who value balance.


When people are propagandized how are they free???

Propaganda only affects the weak minded. If it's not one propaganda that controls them then it will be another. Propaganda can come from many different sources, people will go with what they are drawn to. So it doesn't really matter. Strong minds will still be free regardless of how much propaganda gets pushed on them. Granted they may be less vocal about their opinions but in their mind they will still be free.

Our fast paced discussion has been different but I am done for the night, just wanted to let you know I am not ignoring you as of now.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 06:14 AM
I understand where you're coming from. I was you, I am you. Yes, perspective is everything. Studying alchemy led me to Jung, to Freud... There's a dark side though. If you chose to stay positive that's your will. It's our nature to think through emotion and not logic, but theres an abuse thats taking place because of our ignorance and trust. why does McDonalds say, "im lovin it" when the food is nothing but garbage? why do they throw out smiley faces in advertising for things that are doing more harm than good? It's sad the trivium is no longer taught, it's apparent people are dumbed down. I can't force you to do anything against your will. When people focus on what's good they often ignore the bad... It's gettin bad... Check out the doc in full length and report back, that's all I ask.

If there's anything you can share I'd love to see it to share my interpretation. Oh, another one is , "graham hancocks quest for the lost civilization". Another very worth see

Orbital
06-23-2013, 06:20 AM
Lunsola, I'm not at a pc right now and my smartphone is not letting me edit my posts. My apologies for the clutter everyone.

zoas23
06-23-2013, 06:22 AM
This site is just as corrupted as society as a whole. I can't even speak of the programming and indoctrination that is taking place without being told to talk about it on another thread, even though it applies to almost everything. Most are scared to touch the subject because that means they really have to look at who they are and why they think the way they do.

Smoking causes cancer.
Drinking a lot destroys the liver.
Eating GMOs causes cancer too.

... but nobody has explained yet what's wrong with gays... except that they can't reproduce (oh well... it's not that we live in an underpopulated world).
But, really... what's the "bad thing" that happens to gays? Or what's the "bad thing" that gays cause to society?

You have explained that our society is "corrupted" and I agree with that statement: there always wars going on, lots of people die because of hunger and such thing would actually be EASY to avoid, lots of etceteras...
... and yet you have not explained what kind of harm the gays cause to our society.


Lunsola, society is not corrupted? Turn on the tv and especially watch the commercials. Count the logical fallacies. Marketeers are not in the business to tell you the truth. Have you seen the bbc documentary titled, "the century of the self" and are you familiar with Edward Bernays and the use of propaganda against societies??

I've worked making commercials in the past and I will never do it again.
(Though I was involved with the "filming", not with the marketing... and in most cases, the marketeers and the ones who film the commercial don't even meet).
Almost all the commercials follow the same logic: they don't exactly promote a product, they promote a lifestyle... and then they associate this lifestyle with the product... and tey to convince people that they will have this lifestyle, or at least some of this lifestyle, if they buy this product. So the product is always shown as a "means" to achieving some sort of lifestyle.. which is, by the way, never achieved... because it's always an illusion... and this leads people to think that they need more of this "X" product to achieve this lifestyle that the commercial promotes.
So.... in short... the whole idea behind MOST commercials is to create a link between a lifestile and a product. A link that is just a logical fallacy.

http://i40.tinypic.com/1jart3.jpg

I.e, this commercial simply links the lifestyle of football player, Mikael Forssell (first time I hear that name, but football is not my thing for sure! ).... with a drink that is mostly water and sugar.
But it looks that we all have an inner Mikael Forssell inside of us and it is desirable to reach our "inner Mikael Forssell"... and we don't even need any kind of exercise or meditation to do such thing... we need this orange flavored mix of sugar and water.

Of course, any clever person will simply laugh and find out that there's no link between Mikael Forssell and Gatorade, that the link was invented by the commercial. A typical illusory correlation.

Another typical example:
http://coolpile.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Coca-Cola-Zero-Unlock-The-007-In-You-Advertising-Commercial.jpg

This time we don't have an inner Mikael Forssell, but we have a James Bond... and we can unlock that special feature by buying coca cola.

Anyway.... a lot of commercials are way more subtle, but still follow this same flawed logic.


In a similar way, what you are writing in your previous posts follows this same logic too... another illusory correlation that works pretty much like the commercials work:

-There's gay people in our societies.
-Our societies can be considered corrupted.

These true ideas can be taken as facts (well, the first one is a fact... the second one can be discussed, but let's take it as a fact).

The problem is that you are linking the corruption of the societies with the gays... and I don't see that such link is more realistic that the link that unites Mikael Forssell with Gatorade... or living like 007 with Coca Cola.

So, honestly, the logic you are following is very much like the logic of a commercial. An illusory correlation.

Having said such thing, I can't believe how disrespectful you are being.
I'm also very shocked to find in this forum people with your ideas and points of view.

Do you perceive any link between the existence of gays and the corruption of our society? Is it a link that is stronger than the one that links Mikael with Gatorade or 007 with Coca Cola?

Andro
06-23-2013, 06:33 AM
Just some quick comments on propaganda/programming/etc:

It's doing what it's always been doing: Create (or amplify) a conflict, secretly back up/support all conflicting parties and then draw some sort of benefit from it (financial or otherwise). Divide & Conquer.

This is valid for sexuality/gender related dogma, as well as for possibly most manufactured political/religious/national/racial/etc 'ideologies'.
In this particular case, it means supporting (behind the scenes) both gay rights AND homophobes simultaneously.

The (so called) 'Powers That Be' would not be able to benefit and/or consolidate their power base IF we managed to make allowance for each other and get along harmoniously, despite the never ceasing attempts to manipulate us into fighting each other constantly.

Are we (collectively) ready for this kind of freedom? Apparently not yet.

Few individuals, however, manage to liberate themselves from these constructs, and basically live their lives according to the beating of their own drum, while making allowance for other rhythms as well.

Such individuals are generally not well regarded by the wannabe programmers, because they can't be preyed on.
Subsequently, other means are employed to discredit/put down such individuals. The herd mentality of the (m)asses also plays a role in 'helping' to cast them out.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 06:39 AM
The problem is that you are linking the corruption of the societies with the gays...
...and I don't see that such link is more realistic that the link that unites Mikael Forssell with Gatorade... or living like 007 with Coca Cola.

So, honestly, the logic you are following is very much like the logic of a commercial. An illusory correlation.

Having said such thing, I can't believe how disrespectful you are being.
I'm also very shocked to find in this forum people with your ideas and points of view.

Do you perceive any link between the existence of gays and the corruption of our society?

No, but when the gay agenda is being pushed like crazy I tend to think so. It's quite a bit more subtle than the ploys of Gatorade, "is it in you" or coke which is ridden with aspartame. It's cool, all this acceptance now just means more gays in the future which falls right into agenda 21(yes it exists). Check the Ted Turner speech on depopulation among others. Hide your head in the sand... Look up at the skies...

Why is health care referred to as the medical INDUSTRY? Grow em up and cut em down. You call me disrespectful, and I call you naive.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 07:05 AM
Solomon,

If this alchemical art were accepted by all I may not have found it. I hate quoting the bible, but it does shed some truth.... When Jesus(allegorically) was offered redemption Pontius Pilot asked the crowd, "it is your custom to let a man walk free, I offer you Jesus (the truth and light) or Barabus (a rapist, thief, and murderer) which will you have? The crowd chose Barabus.

Have things really changed?

It's like Stockholm-syndrome or the Pavlovian dog...

III
06-23-2013, 07:32 AM
Trolling simply because we disagree? Ultimately it comes down to the simple fact that gay sex serves no purpose.

And the quote by Robert A. Heinlein: "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity."


Ultimately it comes down to the simple fact that gay sex serves no purpose.

Now that it is totally wrong. Orgasmic sex with another person turns off the "thinking", produces dopamine and oxytocin in many parts of the brain and body. Oxytocin directly battle cortisol, the stress hormone that can be quite damaging. There are, for a man, the same health benefits as far as I am aware, regardless of who they have sex with. You argue that you have TRUTH. How about starting with accuracy.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 07:59 AM
III,

I can't speak for Thrival, but the only truth (i can see from your quote) here is the fruits of labour between a man and (his opposite/balance) woman... which is a child. Is that child not an ultimate? Is there no greater power that mortal 'man' possesses than the replication of itself brought fourth through the powers of sex? What speaks more to the the abilities of our mortality than the infinite possibility of the creation we are endowed with? Gay sex cannot compare to this power.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 08:03 AM
As humans, and as alchemists how can you dismiss the ultimate crucible which is the power to create life? Is nothing left sacred in your art?

thrival
06-23-2013, 03:45 PM
Actually it goes way deeper than social or commercial programming, and creating a third "them" who exploits the situation is hardly an issue. Basically, it's about how humans address life, which is spirit, which includes intelligence, which is a radiation, which arises from beyond earth, namely the beings who send those energies. Lunsola has a problem with religion because he thinks they are merely belief systems without any larger authority or verity and that humans are (or should be) free to do as they please; but religions have verities that go beyond this life. Until you've actually seen or conversed with a spirit beyond this realm, it's all just beliefs, but it's possible to reach a place of knowing vs. merely believing. The Givers of life do so as a gift and they expect some gratitude and proper use. That's what "the wages of sin" really means. Of course if you look at everything from a humanistic perspective, without spiritual experience, you will continue to bray and complain over things you don't understand (and behave shamelessly in other ways) because you are violating the very precepts that spirit established and then complaining that spirit doesn't answer or at least doesn't give you the answer you want to hear. The truth isn't always flattering, doesn't always cater to human vanity. It has a bigger purpose than that, unlike gay sex, which only gratifies its participants, and mocks the bigger plan. In the OT such reprobate persons were called "stiff-necked" (stubborn) and God promised to visit calamity upon them.


Just some quick comments on propaganda/programming/etc:

It's doing what it's always been doing: Create (or amplify) a conflict, secretly back up/support all conflicting parties and then draw some sort of benefit from it (financial or otherwise). Divide & Conquer.

This is valid for sexuality/gender related dogma, as well as for possibly most manufactured political/religious/national/racial/etc 'ideologies'.
In this particular case, it means supporting (behind the scenes) both gay rights AND homophobes simultaneously.

The (so called) 'Powers That Be' would not be able to benefit and/or consolidate their power base IF we managed to make allowance for each other and get along harmoniously, despite the never ceasing attempts to manipulate us into fighting each other constantly.

Are we (collectively) ready for this kind of freedom? Apparently not yet.

Few individuals, however, manage to liberate themselves from these constructs, and basically live their lives according to the beating of their own drum, while making allowance for other rhythms as well.

Such individuals are generally not well regarded by the wannabe programmers, because they can't be preyed on.
Subsequently, other means are employed to discredit/put down such individuals. The herd mentality of the (m)asses also plays a role in 'helping' to cast them out.

Awani
06-23-2013, 05:42 PM
Gay agenda? Jewish agenda? Lizard agenda?

If a person is worried about an agenda then the agenda in question is working. You are feeding it.

Just don't give it any energy and problem solved.

Also straight people should not fret so much about a rise in gay population... this just means the man-woman ration increases... so what is the problem? Besides anyone that fucks a girl in the ass (and I know many do) have had a gay sex experience of sorts... a male ass and a female ass feels the same... our assholes ain't different! So if you like fucking a girl in the ass, try doing it to a guy (if you close your eyes it will feel the same... unless the guys ass is extremely hairy, but a razor can fix that).

:cool:

Awani
06-23-2013, 05:52 PM
WARNING

There are people on this forum that are either straight or gay or both so beware of the Rules & Guidelines (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/announcement.php?f=2&a=3). Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

I don't like censorship, people can think whatever they want but the following words have been used so far: "perverts", "deviants", "sinners", "depraved", "immoral", "shameless", "aberrations" etc...

If you use these kinds of words debating a persons sexual orientation you can expect to cause unnecessary anger or hurt. If you think homosexuality is wrong then say so, but think of how you say things. Bad communication always leads to war.

"People who believe in God are abnormal perverts and peadophiles." OR "I don't agree with people who believe in God because there is no God."

See a difference?

Anyway on with the thread...

:cool:

Awani
06-23-2013, 05:58 PM
"perverts"

Perversion, according to Wiki, was originally defined as "one who has forsaken a doctrine or system regarded as true, apostate."

As far as normal science, religion and society in general I think most of us here on the forum are PERVERTS, as we are all on the fringe!

Let me also add that from what I have experienced the more homophobic a person is the more likely this person is to dream about or experience homosexuality OR feeling shame for having done so in the past. If such people still don't want to accept what they really are/feel then I guess they can always try to Pray the Gay Away...

I am pretty sure, if he was a real person that is, that Jesus was a cocksucker... only a man of God can be so open as to enjoy all aspects of the physical and the emotional. For sure.

Is homosexuality unnatural?

What is unnatural? Answer this first? WHAT IS UNNATURAL in this world? Anything not of nature? God according to Christians and Muslims are not of nature but above... so God is unnatural then?

IMO the unnatural argument is a stupid argument.

Are we here only to procreate? Really? What a fucking bummer... if more people butt-fucked then perhaps this over-population problem would be solved. Just saying.

In the end love is not about sex... I love my cat, but I don't fuck it. If my cat transformed into a woman before my eyes then maybe I would fuck it... hard to say.

Enough rambling...

:cool:

Seth-Ra
06-23-2013, 07:06 PM
Seth: Sex is an integral part of life, it has a purpose (reproduction.) Granted the Catholic church has had a problem with birth control for years, for the very reason that it subverts the purpose. They also have a problem with masterbation. Their alternative is people can abstain. What I see is this culture and generation has fallen quite a ways from what i remember as a kid. The young especially, are missing whole concepts. Life has become all about gratification of feelings, that doesn't necessarily lead to correct conclusions. We have laws that regulate or prohibit certain forms of feeling gratification, theft ("I want what you have") or murder. Maybe a better way to put it is simply ask what positive purpose certain sexual practices serve; also recognizing that good and pure things can be corrupted, adulterated, perverted. Religion has taken upon itself to try and steer man's thinking into constructive use of his mind and energies. Generally speaking, religion talks about an after-life and personal accountability, due to consequences that extend beyond a person's immediate perceptions.

Frankly, the church - catholic or otherwise, can keep its opinions to itself, since even its clergy have, consistently throughout its history, failed to uphold its own teachings. For more info, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases


Furthermore, abstinence doesnt work on the whole, even if it might for a few (it is not a total Truth). As far as seeing what purpose the act serves - even if you dont consciously do it, wet dreams happen - life is being killed. Check out the Ouroboros - it eats its own tail, thats homogenous. It takes life to make and sustain life, and often there is life that is seemingly wasted. Something devours it, however, and the cycle continues.


Yes, everyone has a defect, DNA, telomeres, yada-yada. Mine is that I'm still missing the god particle that lets me wink in and out of different dimensions at whim. But you make the issue below, that we often try to correct our defects to make life more pleasant or at least less onerous. If your mother finds a natural remedy, through you or some other channel, I hope she uses it.

Ya have more defects than missing the "god particle", as do we all. ;)

We do try to correct our defects to make things easier - atleast correct the ones that bother us. We all do this, everywhere, around the world. Technology, sciences, and philosophies to foster and grow those, all to compensate and correct our inability of something.

There is no natural cure for my mother - spines dont grow from trees. Some defects cant be truly fixed, only lessened and dampened. It is inhumane to fault anyone for trying to be the best them they can be, homo, hetero, handicapped, black, white - each color band has its own drawbacks, but when they work together, purity of light is seen. :)


Maybe ingratitude isn't the cause of her problem, but it is some people's. Or too much time on their hands, or not having suffered real adversity that they like to make things up. Some homosexuals really do think their particular perversion makes them special-- really overt, bizarre "trisexuals," alien life forms, what-have-you. The entertainment value wears thin when you consider these people really have no shame where the young are concerned. It would be different if they kept their perversions behind closed doors, but they're not happy with that, they have a larger agenda, to put it into national classrooms as early as kindergarten. I mentioned cross-dressers wanting to use girl's bathrooms, teaching in full drag, etc. It's a big distraction, a defect they expect normal people to suffer through, even accept as a "new normal." It's not.

You are assuming/projecting what their problem is without knowing them. Often things mask people's real pain. What you propose is only a surface mask they might have, and not the root cause, and you demonize the mask.

There are eccentric people everywhere, not just gay ones. Ive seen a guy who dresses like an elf (like Santa's workshop-elf) and his house is full of collectible elves. Its weird. Its odd. Its not evil. The dude is just different. Hell, i use to (and sometimes still do, albeit around the house now) would wear full on Japanese clothing in public (kimono, obi belt, hakama), including a professional grade competition-cutting katana.
Yes, that was hella weird, im in the deep south - who the fuck dresses like a samurai? I do. :cool:
There are parts to that warrior-code that are part of my lifestyle. Im not forcing it, just by living it - everyone flies their flags, doing so doesnt force someone else to pick it up. They'll pick it up if it resonates with them, cause we are free beings.



It's not the same. Physical pain from physical causes is one thing. Gay people are trying to change the culture. Consider gut bacteria; there are healthy (lactic-acid producing) and unhealthy (toxic) forms. The toxic ones kill the host.

Actually, it is the same - emotional feelings can, and do, physically effect the body, to heath or death.
The culture hasnt changed - its just more open due to technology not masking people's "secrets".

The founding fathers of this country did some damn-deplorable things (by the standard you are using), and then they spoke of morality and such. lol Tis funny. One of the first law-suits in this country, was from a guy fucking a farmer's sheep and some chickens.
Yet, you think the culture has changed? The fact that we can look back at prior cultures and see the same behaviors, proves nothing has changed, better or worse. If God, yours or any other, wishes to smite the place - He damn well can, as was demonstrated in Sodom and Gomorra (so long as we are using Bible). He hasnt done it though, so perhaps its not as bad as some would have us believe. ;)


Except that they don't see their condition as a defect at all. Their problem is that they want everyone else to see gay sex and gay lifestyle as normal, in your face. I'm not playing God or bitching but simply stating a position. Yes, bad (and good) things are happening all sorts of places with/out our awareness. Note I only use the word "bad" in a relative sense of something affecting a person's well-being in a negative way. Obviously you having a tapeworm is bad for you but good for the worm.

I dont see my burnt right hand as a condition - it is a defect, but tis just something unique to me.
Im not saying i like for any culture or thing thrown in my face and pushed down my throat (there's a pun there somewhere.... ;) ) that i dont resonate with - but it is not reasonable to be angry with people flying the flags that make them, especially since we all are going to. I dont care for double-standards.



Except that spiritual progress doesn't occur enmasse, but individually, and at one's personal rate. Becoming androgynous might be foremost in one person's minds and the most remote in another. I just don't want someone else's perversions forced upon me and I care enough about young people not wanting it forced upon them either. Item: gay sexual assaults (http://www.wnd.com/2013/05/military-suffers-wave-of-gay-sex-assaults/)have increased in the military since don't-ask, don't tell was revoked.

Yes, progress happens individually - so you cant force, enmasse, opinions of disdain onto people. No one is forcing their "perversions" onto you.
you care enough about young people? Have you seen what the majority of young people do? Your "concern" is about as worthless as it is laughable. I dont mean that to sound mean, its just that its foolish. People will do what they wanna do, especially kids and young adults - they rebel, they test the waters, they do what they want to, regardless, and often because, it spites a nay-sayer.

As for the military thing, having gotten a good taste of that, i say thats POG bitching. I was at Ft. Benning, nothing but guys. There was a good deal of "gay-like" playing, mostly jokes and misc bullshit. No one took it seriously. There was a guy in our platoon infact, that everyone thought was actually gay - they gave him shit for it, but it wasnt really for that, but for other stupid, buddy-fuck (as in getting everyone in trouble) shit that he did. In fact, the main guy that gave him hell, told him to just come out - no one cared, but the hiding and cowering (on top of the other BS) was what their problem was with him.

Alot of things get blown out of proportion, especially from an out-sider's perspective.

If I seem touchy about the military, its cause i am. I seen the life, was there, said it wasnt for me and legally got out of my contract. For anyone that said "yeah, i'll stay." they get what they get, its not like they didnt know. for all those people, my response is thus: suck it up, ruck up, and stfu. (if that sounds mean, it isnt - that is word-for-word what is taught and drilled into them, what they chose to embrace.)



Sex is a behaviour and unless you're unconscious when it's happening to/for you, it's a choice. People entertain certain ideas and then they act on them. If it's a defect, and people have mentally fallen through the cracks, then calling it such is a helpful first step, but the gay community won't have that. What you or I might call a defect they regard as a positive attribute and a badge of pride, hence the gay parades.

The sex is the secondary, it is the action resulting from the internal, and it is the internal that determines it - the feelings that they cant change or help. It is only defect in that it is "abnormal", but not evil - and if they dont let it become a problem, then it isnt one for them, and is something they overcame. I reference the broken pottery annaology again, so long as we are repeating ourselves.


I think you are maybe not as well-read or just naive.

Funny, the other person who has ever called me "naive" was Leo/RogerC - seems thats the go-to assumption/projection when one is logically disagreeing with yall. Im sad to see that, as i thought you were better than that.



What is created homogenously on the natural world Soloman?

While it is more difficult to do, it happens nonetheless: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleation#Homogeneous_nucleation

Then there is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogeneous_(chemistry)

Very stable things.


If there is no truth to be found or had then I suppose we should all just stop what we're doing that's worthwhile... What's the point right?

Know thy self, to know the point. To get the right answer, ask the right question.


Ultimately it comes down to the simple fact that gay sex serves no purpose.

Now that it is totally wrong. Orgasmic sex with another person turns off the "thinking", produces dopamine and oxytocin in many parts of the brain and body. Oxytocin directly battle cortisol, the stress hormone that can be quite damaging. There are, for a man, the same health benefits as far as I am aware, regardless of who they have sex with. You argue that you have TRUTH. How about starting with accuracy.

III,

That post was totally win. :cool:


Gay agenda? Jewish agenda? Lizard agenda?

If a person is worried about an agenda then the agenda in question is working. You are feeding it.

Just don't give it any energy and problem solved.

Also straight people should not fret so much about a rise in gay population... this just means the man-woman ration increases... so what is the problem? Besides anyone that fucks a girl in the ass (and I know many do) have had a gay sex experience of sorts... a male ass and a female ass feels the same... our assholes ain't different! So if you like fucking a girl in the ass, try doing it to a guy (if you close your eyes it will feel the same... unless the guys ass is extremely hairy, but a razor can fix that).

:cool:


Perversion, according to Wiki, was originally defined as "one who has forsaken a doctrine or system regarded as true, apostate."

As far as normal science, religion and society in general I think most of us here on the forum are PERVERTS, as we are all on the fringe!

.....


Is homosexuality unnatural?

What is unnatural? Answer this first? WHAT IS UNNATURAL in this world? Anything not of nature? God according to Christians and Muslims are not of nature but above... so God is unnatural then?

IMO the unnatural argument is a stupid argument.

Are we here only to procreate? Really? What a fucking bummer... if more people butt-fucked then perhaps this over-population problem would be solved. Just saying.

In the end love is not about sex... I love my cat, but I don't fuck it. If my cat transformed into a woman before my eyes then maybe I would fuck it... hard to say.

Enough rambling...


:cool:


Good points Dev. :D





~Seth-Ra

lwowl
06-23-2013, 07:26 PM
Sex is irrelevant to the pursuit of alchemy. Procreation is a side effect to sex, not the purpose of it. Sex is the Mysterium Conjunctionis of Creation. Procreation is merely one of the byproducts of the mysterious conjunction. When seen from a myopic perspective it becomes a central focus.

For example back in the 1990s I was part of a grass roots effort to end marijuana prohibition in California. We would not have succeeded without the organizational skills provided by the gay community in San Francisco. One great man was a genius at organization. He was a Vietnam war veteran like me, but he was gay. Because we were veterans we could share an intimate level of communication we could not share with non veterans for fear of freaking them out.

My wife and I were his guests whenever we went to San Francisco. The Castro district is the heartland of the gay community there. I felt safer walking down the streets there than anywhere else in SF. My wife and I were the minorities there. We were tolerated by the gay activists we worked with and became great friends with many. It dawned on me while walking down a street with my wife and seeing other couples walking along that there was no way of telling if couples walking along like us were homo or hetero. Since we were in the minority there the likelihood was greater that a male and female couple walking along were gay and lesbian friends. So, sexual orientation is irrelevant to a community’s well being.

The big problem seems to come in when people cannot accept their own essential sexuality. During that same time period I met a Rastafarian minister. He was a terrible homophobe preaching hatred. Then on one occasion he confessed that he was gay but god saw that as an abomination so he practiced celibacy and he hated himself.
Thoughout my life I have noticed that every dedicated homophobe was terrified that he would somehow catch the gay infection. So they want to stamp it out like some disease.

It is all so irrelevant. There is a creature living on this planet that has four sexes. This is hard to fathom for us bisexual creatures. Some would say this creature is merely a fungus and dismiss it as a mindless primitive. And they would be protecting themselves with a shield of ignorance by doing so. But that creature is far from mindless. It can transform Chaos into Cosmos in a magical union with it. It contains within it the astral spirit, a streak of blue heaven when you touch it. Put it into your furnace and it will touch you, perhaps revealing Mind beyond you, and even the NotMind within you.

Lunsola
06-23-2013, 08:46 PM
Some responses were a bit hostile but we've had a lot of thought brought forth because of it. I appreciate all of your well thought out responses, especially from my boy toy <3

When I accepted myself completely is when I came to the wonderful world of alchemy. Since then it's been a fantastic two years of study and progress and I've managed to join this forum and meet a lot of really awesome people.

I'm glad you mentioned that lwowl. The creature certainly is something else to behold, especially the more one understands it. I've created a lot of them to play and experiment with but I'm mostly interested in the growth potential and rectification process. It can be processed in it's native state but I'm very interested in the longer method for obvious reasons. Unfortunately as you say some just aren't interested in this. I'm always open to chatting if anyone else is working with the creature we're speaking of.

Orbital
06-23-2013, 10:20 PM
Dev,

"If more people butt-fucked than it would solve the over population problem."

Do you really think there's a problem of too much people? Too many dumbed down, brainwashed, and blind slaves maybe. Saying there are too many people is silly, and speaks to the conditioning that is going on.

Has anyone here seen, "The Century of the Self"? It's been proven recently that the Deadhead's were manufactured to poison society. Elton John was fuckin knighted by the queen for his works, along with The Beatles... John is dead, I wonder why? When the monarch knights a subject it's extremely symbolic, touch one shoulder and going over the head and touching the other with a sword... Meaning, you're in contract to me now, if you break this contract the sword won't be going over your head next time but through your neck.

MK-Ultra anyone? Ignore facts. There is an agenda, and the big push by the homosexual thing is a part of it. A matrix indeed. I'm not scared of it, but I'm not in denial about it either. Humanity has this way of adapting to change really quickly. Poor chattel...

Orbital
06-23-2013, 11:00 PM
Ironically, I go downstairs and turn on the tv (I know I know, but I'm house-sitting and watch tv when I eat). So anyways, Mrs. Doubtfire is on. Out of all the names to title a mainstream movie with a large budget and a top notch star about a man who cross-dresses. Why would they call him and title the film Mrs. Doubtfire? What does that mean?

Now, anyone here who is in the know has to be familiar with how Hollywood (Druids of old would fashion their wands for magick from holly trees) is deep into the esoteric. So, why Doubtfire? What are the subtle messages that are being conveyed to the world via Hollywood? Is it possible that Hollywood has a way of manipulating whole populations via their movies. People are fascinated by TV and movies without knowing why. Whole lexicons and behaviors are created by Hollywood. McKenna once said TV is, "a drug par excellance".

Awani
06-24-2013, 12:54 AM
“Don't hide behind the Constitution or the Bible. If you're against gay marriage, just be honest, put a scarlet 'H' on your shirt, and say, 'I am a homophobe!”
― Henry Rollins


Do you really think there's a problem of too much people?

YES. Of course. I don't like to say it is a fact... but in this instance IT IS!


1915: 1.8 billion | 1967: 3.5 billion | 2006: 6.5 billion | 2011: 7.0 billion - source (http://www.overpopulation.org/)

http://www.overpopulation.org/faq.html

7 billion morons is harder to manage than 1 billion. Simple math.

And if there is a GAY agenda then there is also a RAPED WOMEN agenda.

Come on... the amount of gayness in the media is a result of the liberation of gays... if there was MTV and HBO when the Greeks/Romans ruled the world you would think the current gay agenda was a joke. You can't recruit someone to be gay, no more than you can recruit someone that is gay to be straight... oh wait you can... that is exactly what many gays have had to suffer. Many shot their face off as a result.

In the USA there are a few agendas:


Conservative Christians
Anti-Defamation League
Big Pharma


These three are much worse. Instead of allowing people to be butt fucked these want to allow people to be brain fucked.

Although I think this is wrong: http://rt.com/usa/california-ban-gay-therapy-632/

Nothing should be banned... as long as people can do things with free will and not hurt anyone then let them do it. If we ban morons we become morons.


"If more people butt-fucked than it would solve the over population problem."

I hope the above quote makes it into my legacy of things I have said. LOL!

:cool:

Awani
06-24-2013, 01:12 AM
Ok a little stereotypical, still some points hold up...

9 Good Reasons Straight Men Should Explore Homosexuality

1. No Unwanted Pregnancies
This one’s pretty self-explanatory.

2. Get in Better Shape
Let’s face it, gay dudes are in much better shape than we are.

3. Double Your Wardrobe
When we move in with our new lover we’ll immediately have access to a whole new closet full of clothes

4. Make New Friends
Being gay is going to throw us into a whole new social network.

5. Even Playing Field
When you're gay, your partner will never, ever withhold sex as a punishment or use sex as a weapon.

6. Be Funnier
Gay guys are naturally funnier.

7. Have More Fun at Concerts
There’s something about being a proud gay man that strips down social barriers far more than being a repressed straight man does.

8. Attract More Women
This may seem counter intuitive given that we’ll now be having sex with men, but hear me out: it’s a scientific fact that women like gay guys.

9. Run Hollywood
Well we might not be Jewish, but we could possibly be gay if we tried it and liked it - and that transition takes a LOT less reading. Plus, those of us who are Jewish will suddenly have TWO avenues to pursue in our pop culture domination. Think about it.

source (http://www.ranker.com/list/9-good-reasons-straight-men-should-explore-homosexuality/ian-tindell?page=1)

A more serious read: The Surprising History Of Homosexuality And Homophobia (http://reflectionsasia.wordpress.com/2007/09/01/the-surprising-history-of-homosexuality-and-homophobia/)


Conclusions

It should be obvious by now that homophobia has its origins in ignorance. It is spread by ignorance, by repression, social conservatism and the alliance of church and state. It is self-evident that education leads to an understanding of the truth and that truth itself leads to freedom.
The history of homophobia in western culture is instructive. It tells us how, when we make untested assumptions, we can easily be led into error that can be very destructive, as homophobia has been. It shows us that the path to liberation isn’t through religious indoctrination but through reason and logic.

In a nation that claims to value freedom, let us learn from this lesson from the past. Let us throw off our chains of superstition and ignorance, and embrace the truth that our forebearers knew two millenia ago: homosexuals are a normal part of life and should be tolerated, accepted and integrated into every facet of culture without prejudice or ignorance. - source (http://reflectionsasia.wordpress.com/2007/09/01/the-surprising-history-of-homosexuality-and-homophobia/)

:cool:

Awani
06-24-2013, 01:44 AM
Elton John was fuckin knighted by the queen for his works, along with The Beatles... John is dead, I wonder why?

Because the Queen likes Can You Feel the Love Tonight and because Mark Chapman shot John Lennon.

The old brainwashing is to hate gays, the new is to like gays and hate arabs. You are clearly still in the old brainwashing. Come over here to the current one... fuck the arabs. ;)

:cool:

thrival
06-24-2013, 02:52 AM
The gays have already won by introducing sex into a topic that people of history spoke about with reverence. I see no mention of cocksuckers or anal sex in the works of Hollandus, Glauber or Villanova. Kudos to all you gay/supporters, for lowering the moral & intellectual bar. Stupid is as stupid does. Thanks dev, for pointing out the difference between love and sex. As for your remarks about Jesus, you really have no clue.


Perversion, according to Wiki, was originally defined as "one who has forsaken a doctrine or system regarded as true, apostate."

As far as normal science, religion and society in general I think most of us here on the forum are PERVERTS, as we are all on the fringe!

Let me also add that from what I have experienced the more homophobic a person is the more likely this person is to dream about or experience homosexuality OR feeling shame for having done so in the past. If such people still don't want to accept what they really are/feel then I guess they can always try to Pray the Gay Away...

I am pretty sure, if he was a real person that is, that Jesus was a cocksucker... only a man of God can be so open as to enjoy all aspects of the physical and the emotional. For sure.

Is homosexuality unnatural?

What is unnatural? Answer this first? WHAT IS UNNATURAL in this world? Anything not of nature? God according to Christians and Muslims are not of nature but above... so God is unnatural then?

IMO the unnatural argument is a stupid argument.

Are we here only to procreate? Really? What a fucking bummer... if more people butt-fucked then perhaps this over-population problem would be solved. Just saying.

In the end love is not about sex... I love my cat, but I don't fuck it. If my cat transformed into a woman before my eyes then maybe I would fuck it... hard to say.

Enough rambling...

:cool:

Awani
06-24-2013, 03:12 AM
Kudos to all you gay/supporters, for lowering the moral & intellectual bar.

LOL!

I was only lowering my own remarks to the moral and intellectual bar that had been set by the anti-gay/supporters in this thread.


I see no mention of cocksuckers or anal sex in the works of Hollandus, Glauber or Villanova. .

This thread is about: Diversity In Sexual Orientation & Gender Identity

So I don't get why you speak of Glauber etc. Then again maybe it is silly to be prudent. I am sure Hollandus enjoyed having his cock sucked... what is so wrong about mentioning that? Is it dirty, shameful... I see it as normal. Human society has been way to prudent/chaste in the past, at times even the mention of sex would cause an outcry. I thought we had grown out of that... Apparently not.

Nothing should be put on a pedestal. Alchemy does not need reverence... God/Jesus can take a joke (if they can't they are certainly not divine). Nothing is sacred because all is sacred. If it can't hold together from ridicule it is not worthy to be sustained.


As for your remarks about Jesus, you really have no clue.

That is true, and neither do you unless you are 2000 years old.

And the only reason I mentioned love was because if a man loves a man it is love... if they have sex it is called homosexual acts... but at the core is love... love has no gender. That was my point.


“Quietism, Buddhism, and other religions, everything which denies the flesh—is the great inferiority to God in ourselves, an escapism seeking sanctuary through fear of life and inability to accept 'this reality'. They were hurt? Or was the odalisque unsatisfactory or too expensive? They expected too much for too little, or were too mean to pay—therefore: "All is illusion". But the Stoic smilingly awaits the next shower of shit from heaven. Stoics are not Saviours, Saints or Heroes and are often confused and weary, yet they prefer to find their own way and to accept life as they find it. The schizophrenics, the melancholics and psychotics—they at least are secretive and inflict no religions on others. They prove the possibilities and utilities of 'as if' when totally accepted.”
― Austin Osman Spare

:cool:

zoas23
06-24-2013, 04:28 AM
The gays have already won by introducing sex into a topic that people of history spoke about with reverence. I see no mention of cocksuckers or anal sex in the works of Hollandus, Glauber or Villanova. Kudos to all you gay/supporters, for lowering the moral & intellectual bar. Stupid is as stupid does. Thanks dev, for pointing out the difference between love and sex. As for your remarks about Jesus, you really have no clue.

The sex symbolism has been introduced into alchemy a long time ago...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-id_z6NrpQGQ/TwmMvaZRBAI/AAAAAAAACSQ/UmtQpDq5yKo/s1600/02.png http://webspace.webring.com/people/qm/mindstuff/images/jung17.gif

Anyway... I wrote earlier a private message to another member of this forum. I don't publish private messages, but since I am only quoting myself, I think it is OK:



And the whole thread became quite stupid. It mostly became like a dialogue with one side repeating again and again: "Gays are against nature, gays can't procreate, fuck you"... and another side repeating: "you are a brainless homophobe, fuck you"... Yeah, we are all using nicer words, but none of us is currently saying much more than such things. I mean, we are for sure not having anything that gets even close to an intellectual debate... and it looks like a discussion between 15 year old teenagers.
Probably that's because homophobia is very violent and creates a very violent context... and there's very few people who are able to say something clever in a violent context.
It could have been an interesting thread (...)

And that's mostly what I think about the whole situation.... Sorry for the informal language, it was simply a silly PM I was seding to someone without the need to use nice expressions and without the need to decorate my words or what I really think.

The thread was somehow interesting until you arrived and created a very tense and violent situation... and since that instant, I do really agree with your idea that the intellectual bar descended to the level of a discussion between teenagers. I blame you for such thing, for bringing violent ideas... which can only create violent responses.... yeah, there's very few people in this world who are able to write marvelous things when they are in the middle of a violent discussion, it's a very rare talent.... and I don't find it too surprising that nobody here has that extremely rare talent.

I don't get which one is your point, though I can say that you won... the thread became incredibly stupid instead of interesting.

So, anyway... what are you trying to achieve here in this thread? Why you felt the need to express the disgust you feel about gays? What do you wanted the gay people here to do?
You wanted them to repent of being gay?
You wanted them to state that they are siners?
You wanted them to write somethng like: "I am sorry, Thrival, I will never have homosexual sex again in my life"?
You wanted them to cease to exist? Suicide? Celibacy?

I really don't get what you wanted....
Though I can state that the result has been, indeed, lowering the intellectual bar... whilst the moral bar, if you want my opinion, it was absolutely destroyed when you decided that it was OK to write your rants about how the sexuality of other people here should be.

I don't think that "the gays have won" as you have stated... but the thread became incredibly stupid and that's true... and I blame you for such thing.

Anyway... may I ask you a question:
Is there at least a part of you that thinks that your posts have been offensive?

thrival
06-24-2013, 04:47 AM
40 years ago a thread of said title did not exist, for good reason; it's idiotic to talk about being something apart from what nature made you, and you've joined the club. I like older dictionaries, they give a hint of what was lost.

American College dictionary, Double-Day, Doran & Company, Inc. 1928

Pervert: 1. to turn away from the right course. 2. to lead astray morally. 3. to lead into mental error or false judgement. 4. to bring over to religious belief regarded as false or wrong. 5. to turn to an improper use; misapply. 6. to distort. 7. to bring to a less excellent state; vitiate. 8. pathol. to change to that which is unnatural or abnormal. 9. to affect with perversion. 10. Pathological. One affected with perversion. 11. one who has been perverted.

One thing I've learned about gay people is they are inveterate liars, first to themselves, and then the world at large.

Actually Christ was pretty clear on many things. You don't have to live 2,000 years ago to get it, but that would require the desire and proper steps on your part.

As for the Alchemists of old, your uninformed opinion again, isn't worth very much, and frankly I don't find you worthy of them or their caliber of people, without which you would not figure out diddly. Ditto for what you call humor. My, what a dissappointment this board has become.




LOL!

I was only lowering my own remarks to the moral and intellectual bar that had been set by the anti-gay/supporters in this thread.



This thread is about: Diversity In Sexual Orientation & Gender Identity

So I don't get why you speak of Glauber etc. Then again maybe it is silly to be prudent. I am sure Hollandus enjoyed having his cock sucked... what is so wrong about mentioning that? Is it dirty, shameful... I see it as normal. Human society has been way to prudent/chaste in the past, at times even the mention of sex would cause an outcry. I thought we had grown out of that... Apparently not.

Nothing should be put on a pedestal. Alchemy does not need reverence... God/Jesus can take a joke (if they can't they are certainly not divine). Nothing is sacred because all is sacred. If it can't hold together from ridicule it is not worthy to be sustained.



That is true, and neither do you unless you are 2000 years old.

And the only reason I mentioned love was because if a man loves a man it is love... if they have sex it is called homosexual acts... but at the core is love... love has no gender. That was my point.



:cool:

thrival
06-24-2013, 04:51 AM
Did you notice that your image is of a man & a woman? (king & queen). You can tell by the length of hair.


The sex symbolism has been introduced into alchemy a long time ago...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-id_z6NrpQGQ/TwmMvaZRBAI/AAAAAAAACSQ/UmtQpDq5yKo/s1600/02.png http://webspace.webring.com/people/qm/mindstuff/images/jung17.gif

Anyway... I wrote earlier a private message to another member of this forum. I don't publish private messages, but since I am only quoting myself, I think it is OK:



And that's mostly what I think about the whole situation.... Sorry for the informal language, it was simply a silly PM I was seding to someone without the need to use nice expressions and without the need to decorate my words or what I really think.

The thread was somehow interesting until you arrived and created a very tense and violent situation... and since that instant, I do really agree with your idea that the intellectual bar descended to the level of a discussion between teenagers. I blame you for such thing, for bringing violent ideas... which can only create violent responses.... yeah, there's very few people in this world who are able to write marvelous things when they are in the middle of a violent discussion, it's a very rare talent.... and I don't find it too surprising that nobody here has that extremely rare talent.

I don't get which one is your point, though I can say that you won... the thread became incredibly stupid instead of interesting.

So, anyway... what are you trying to achieve here in this thread? Why you felt the need to express the disgust you feel about gays? What do you wanted the gay people here to do?
You wanted them to repent of being gay?
You wanted them to state that they are siners?
You wanted them to write somethng like: "I am sorry, Thrival, I will never have homosexual sex again in my life"?
You wanted them to cease to exist? Suicide? Celibacy?

I really don't get what you wanted....
Though I can state that the result has been, indeed, lowering the intellectual bar... whilst the moral bar, if you want my opinion, it was absolutely destroyed when you decided that it was OK to write your rants about how the sexuality of other people here should be.

I don't think that "the gays have won" as you have stated... but the thread became incredibly stupid and that's true... and I blame you for such thing.

Anyway... may I ask you a question:
Is there at least a part of you that thinks that your posts have been offensive?

Lunsola
06-24-2013, 05:34 AM
Did you notice that your image is of a man & a woman? (king & queen). You can tell by the length of hair.

Can tell by the length of hair? Yeah because no woman anywhere has short hair and no men have long hair... You can't even see the chest or genitals either. Who's to say it couldn't be two men or two women? That could be an alchemist's deception.

Once again Thrival you dodge many worthy arguments/points and post more hate and ignorance and this time you're really reaching for it. I am pretty confident at this point you are trolling or at least pushing hate, negativity, & judgement. But I'll still deconstruct some of your points.

Actually there was no thread because there was no mainstream internet 40 years ago. Things like this have always been discussed, sometimes in more private or safe settings but now more people than ever are waking up that being gay isn't such a ground shaking morality issue. LBGT people don't affect you in a negative way. You are only affected by your own prejudice/disgust of them. You're literally making yourself uncomfortable. If you would just let it all go you would feel a lot better, I promise.

We're not lying, you just don't understand because it's not your problem and you don't want to understand it, you want to hate.

Your bible doesn't have any legitimacy and proves nothing. If any religion was 100% absolute/true then everyone would clearly follow it. This obviously isn't the case. Just for comical purposes though I will say this: Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, at all. You can go search all day to find me a quote where he did, he didn't. So even from your faulty premise you can't use Jesus as a shield to justify hating gay people, therefore it is even more faulty.

Dev's arguments have merit, they are well thought out. Once again Thrival you push negativity, you aren't actually contributing to this discussion. Everything you post is negative or an excuse to push hate.

Orbital
06-24-2013, 06:11 AM
Dev,

C'mon... Henry Rollins doesn't have a huge ego does he? At all? This marriage thing is silly. Does god care if you have certain papers saying your married to someone or not? Marriage has become a capitalistic venture, essentially that's what it is if you're going to a court to get married and "ask" for a wedding license. New businesses require a license. To say that homosexuals should ask a clergyman or priest of good standing to marry them is absurd as well, that's why there's tons of gay churches now I guess. A place where homosexuals can go and get married and read the bible while glosses over anything that has to do with homosexuality. Heck they even have atheist churches, where the idea of god is completely removed. The moral fabric of society is being torn apart in many ways these days.

Is this thread becoming stupid, or didn't it just start out that way? This thread seems like a place to just push the gay topic. Lots of glass houses having stones thrown at them. People have even came here acknowledging that they're not after truth and believe everything to be relative. It's really sad.

Androgynus had to have known feathers would get ruffled here. Maybe he's trying to work his own alchemical black magick here. Is that the case Androgynus?

All this stay positive new age stuff is gross. There is such a thing as good and evil, pretending and hiding from it is just lying to oneself.

Seth-Ra
06-24-2013, 06:13 AM
As Lunsola said, there was no mainstream internet that long ago, so, heh, no there wasnt a thread. But there have always been "forums" of discussion, including those that covered this topic.

Now, you say that the gays are the ones ruining sacred things by throwing sex into the mix - but isnt sex itself a divine gift and expression of love? (not the only one either, but an intimate one)
You also dont have problem when it is of the "King and Queen"/hetero - even though in Alchemical literature/symbolism this union produces a homogenous/androgynous substance...
The whole point of combining opposites is to balance the equation and get it to root/source in full expression - which is homo, as its the One substance of all substances. (I believe SL mentioned something about this earlier...)

You pick and choose and pervert my beloved Bible to fuel hate and intolerance. When Jesus wants to judge the world, He'll do it - and he doesnt need over zealous stone-throwers to do it for Him. If and when God does things, its fine and dandy and just. When you, human, over step, you only hurt yourself and rally to victory the very cause you attempt to rage against.
Furthermore, if you really believed that book like you try to sound like, then youd have read enough to know that you lose here. So your hateful words, only serve to hurt you. If you could [I]see]/I], you wouldnt care. But you cant, so you do, and you hurt yourself, in image, and in spirit, as your points are only delivered with disdain and contempt. Whether you choose to not see, or whether you arent able to, is for you to answer. If you wanna stay in your blind-dual camp and rage against that which IS, you can, but you only distort yourself and scripture unto your own destruction, not ours.


Therefore, dear friends, while you wait for these things, make every effort to be found at peace with Him without spot or blemish. Also, regard the patience of our Lord as an opportunity for salvation, just as our dear brother Paul has written to you according to the wisdom given to him. He speaks about these things in all his letters in which there are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:14-16, emphasis added.

The Bible's core message is of love and peace - there are times for war, but love your enemy. The only thing to hate, is what is unpleasing in yourself - and that hate should be temporary as you rectify the problem. Other people, and their problems, are not your own. Your convictions, are not theirs.

I have said this in many places, and i'll say it once again: it is all about relationship with Spirit. Everyone's is unique - stop hating, and promoting hate, for those you find different than your own. If the Spirit/Powers/God wants to reprimand someone, It will.

You are a mirror image of the very poison you claim to fight. I strongly suggest you check yourself. (i sincerely mean that, not as an insult or attack, sorry if it sounds like one.)





~Seth-Ra

Orbital
06-24-2013, 06:29 AM
Seth-Ra. Lose? Haha you lost a long time ago. You've aligned yourself with these homosexual alchemists. Back in your posts in 2009 you saw the light, but it seems like individuals here have dimmed that a bit for you.

Refer to Corinthians 6:18
Corinthians 6:9/11. The bible specifically labels homosexuality as an immoral virtue Lunsola...

And Revelations 21:8

Lunsola
06-24-2013, 06:44 AM
Refer to Corinthians 6:18
Corinthians 6:9/11. The bible specifically labels homosexuality as an immoral virtue Lunsola...

And Revelations 21:8

I said a quote by Jesus himself in a very specific context. Please read more carefully. One where he specifically says homosexuality is wrong. Sexual immorality doesn't necessarily cover that. He could have meant anything, it wasn't defined. Masturbation itself even counts as sexual immorality to some, it's where do you draw the line? There is no line, the line is imaginary.

Edit: You won't find any because they aren't there. It doesn't matter what you said in regards to your bible though because I don't acknowledge it any more than what wisdom is in it. It does have some wisdom but it is also equally filled with ignorance and prejudice.

III
06-24-2013, 06:46 AM
As humans, and as alchemists how can you dismiss the ultimate crucible which is the power to create life? Is nothing left sacred in your art?

Hi Orbital,

Is nothing left sacred in your art

You appear to be rather over dramatic.

As for me, my art is all about the sacred work. I can't speak for others.

As humans, and as alchemists how can you dismiss the ultimate crucible which is the power to create life?

Again, rather over dramatic And here I have thought that the "ultimate crucible" would be transcending death


No human as the power to create life. At best we can cultivate, propagate or otherwise manipulate life. Combining sperm and egg does not MAKE life. It only rolls the dice combining some DNS. If sex were only for breeding once each couple of years, well, you see how that works in a lot of animals. Men and women would have their once a year day with absolutely compulsive community wide all day orgies and that would be that. Instead it is used for generation of hormones and neurotransmitters. It is part of letting down the barriers between people and between people and God.

As for the Bible, so what. While there is a limited amount of information there, it isn't the be all and end all. You may feel selectively bound by some things in the bible, but I certainly don't and I doubt that many here feel so bound.

So a primitive tribe with a 50% child mortality rate in the first 5 years sees a high rate of reproduction as a matter of survival? Is that surprising to anybody? They also didn't eat pork but didn't know about cooking it hot enough to kill the parasites. So they sanctified the necessities, the better hard won knowledge. It's a common pattern, sanctifying necessities.

Seth-Ra
06-24-2013, 06:51 AM
Seth-Ra. Lose? Haha you lost a long time ago. You've aligned yourself with these homosexual alchemists. Back in your posts in 2009 you saw the light, but it seems like individuals here have dimmed that a bit for you.

Refer to Corinthians 6:18
Corinthians 6:9/11. The bible specifically labels homosexuality as an immoral virtue Lunsola...

And Revelations 21:8

Orbital, I can't lose since I'm not fighting here. Lol
But the context of "lose here" that I was meaning, was here on this planet. It is given over - you can't win. The only one that can, is currently abstaining, while everyone works out their own salvation through fear and trembling.

I align myself with the Creator, who's thumbprint is on everything that IS.
I don't fight what IS. I only raise my own sword (literal and figurative) cause it is my personal nature - but my All-Seeing Soul, doesn't care if it hits or falls - what ever IS, is ok - and we do not die. :)

Also, all things are permissible, though not beneficial. But it doesn't bother you yourself, so, "what to me to you?"
(That's a translation joke - a word for word from where Jesus asked Mary (mother) when she wanted Him to do something about the wine running out. ;) )




~Seth-Ra

Orbital
06-24-2013, 07:28 AM
Seth Ra,

Exactly, all things are acceptable just not all beneficial. Such is the nature of free will. I'm also not trying to fight a war here. You were the first to bring up the win/ lose thing. Combining sperm to egg does not create life?? Huh? That's news to me.

Lunsola,

Yes, masterbation is immoral. Sexual force is no joke. It's no wonder a man gets tired when spilling his seed. You're right, the bible is not the end all be all. There are other religious texts that specifically lay out moral ways in which to live that reduce the amount of pain and suffering that can be inflicted on the self and to others. Jesus smesus... It's possible this master did not exist, but to dismiss the teachings entirely is silly. There are profound truths to be found in real religious texts. Mostly all laid out allegorically. Things have a way of being perverted by men, which is why we see these books and teachings being taken at face value, when really it's about deciphering something that is hidden. Akin to the allegorical story Plato gave about the cave.

All paths lead to Rome. We can thank the Romans for abusing the secret teachings. We're talking power here. The Romans adopted and corrupted the ancient teachings... Giving and pushing a story at face value, while not providing and teaching the hidden message. This is why people have been taught to believe without having real faith gained through experience. Without experience it's hard to stay faithful. It's easy to believe in ideas, but having faith and real knowing is what it's all about.

Ghislain
06-24-2013, 07:33 AM
I cannot believe how quickly this thread has grown, and on a subject that is personal to each
and every one of us.

I try to control the anger in myself, but one thing that brings it to the fore is when others judge me
without the full facts or experience.

Everyone is an individual part of the whole and it should not concern another what their sexual
orientation is unless it harmfully affects another. It is the difference that creates the joy in life.
Try to imagine a life without that difference...it does not bare thinking about; we may as well give up
and let machines take over.

For those amongst you that are against a particular sexual orientation try to imagine that that
particular orientation is the norm and they are hostile to your own orientation...how would you cope
with that?

Let bygones be bygones and correct in you that which may be lacking.

Is anyone so perfect that they may cast judgement on another?

Vive La Difference!

Ghislain

Seth-Ra
06-24-2013, 07:53 AM
Seth Ra,

Exactly, all things are acceptable just not all beneficial. Such is the nature of free will. I'm also not trying to fight a war here. You were the first to bring up the win/ lose thing.

That (the win/lose thing) was mostly to Thrival actually, but i should have specified. :)




~Seth-Ra

Andro
06-24-2013, 08:00 AM
Now, the strict answer to this thread is no and yes (probably a mind fuck by Androgynus, thank you).


Androgynus had to have known feathers would get ruffled here. Maybe he's trying to work his own alchemical black magick here. Is that the case Androgynus?

1. Feathers get ruffled here from time to time, on a wide variety of topics. It's not limited to this one.

2. First 'mind fuck', then 'black magic'... I wonder what you're going to come up with next...

3. Instead of making stuff up, better read the note posted in the first post (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3634-Diversity-In-Sexual-Orientation-Gender-Identity&p=30684#post30684) of this spin-off thread. It answers your questions.

Here is the note, for your convenience:


Mod Note: This is a Spin-Off Thread about Diversity In Sexual Orientation & Gender Identity, continued from HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1143-Youtube-music-links&p=30627#post30627).

Anything related to this topic (but not directly related to Alchemy or Tantra) may be posted here, on this new thread.
The spin-off started when a video was posted of a song named 'Androgynous (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1143-Youtube-music-links&p=30626#post30626)' (by Crush Test Dummies), to which I added other related videos and some side comments.
It was due to those follow-up comments of mine and the reactions they triggered that the YouTube music thread got derailed.Splitting a thread that goes off-topic is common practice on forums, so instead of killing the discussion and deleting the off-topics, a new thread/topic is created.

It's been done dozens of times, and this is surely not the last time it happens.

From Rules & Guidelines (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/announcement.php?f=5&a=3):


sometimes a topic can go off-topic for good reasons, as other new interesting areas/ideas might surface - then just ask a moderator to split the thread in twoOne of the mods will occasionally split off-topics and place them into new threads, to allow the discussion to continue without derailing the original thread.

Keeping threads on topic allows for easier search and better general flow of the forum. The reason for all the splits (not just this one) is purely logistical.

Also, on a side note, I had made some remarks about androgyny and sexuality in the context of the videos that were posted on the original YouTube thread, but I never once said something negative about heteros. I DO NOT HATE HETEROS OR HETEROSEXUALITY. Thrival, however, felt the need to point out that gay is an 'abheration' (!) and not the way his 'god' intended it to be, furthermore making false assumptions on my behalf, things I never said, such as me not being happy with the equipment which his 'god' allegedly 'gave' me (I am very happy, thank you very much), or me 'choosing to use it in unintended ways', therefore not only falsely assuming on my behalf that it is a matter of choice, but also speaking for 'god' as if he were the fucking Metatron. Such misrepresentations and assumptions on another's behalf (including god's :)) generally fall under the category of TROLLING, which is not allowed on this forum. I however, not being a fan of censorship, not only didn't ban him for trolling, but instead created this spin-off thread as a ground for him to express his opinions (and inevitably get reactions, as in all other threads).

Or do you think I should have stopped this hate mongering in its tracks, ban the troll and delete all these comments in the first place?

There's no pleasing you people. If I'm open minded and make room for perspectives different from my own, then I'm doing 'mind fuck' or 'black magic'.

Should I have stopped this in its infancy, I'd be doing censorship or whatever. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

It seems to me that you have nothing better to do that sticking your nose in other people's lives and tell them how they should live them.

You present your perspective - that's fine. So do I. But for me to be 'right' in the way I live my life doesn't require someone else to be 'wrong'.
I have the same right to be happy and fulfilled as you do. I have the same right to be represented in media/society/politics as you do. THAT'S constitutional.
But apparently, you hate mongers need to find (or invent) an adversary to validate your own existence and/or purpose.
Just like the 'satan' entity written into the story to validate your 'god', the 'god' you've created in your own limited (non-full spectrum) image, anthropomorphized ad absurdum and endowed with all your hatred, fears, insecurity and ignorance.

I have hetero and gay friends, and everything in between. Sexuality has never been an issue. Neither has it EVER been an issue with the BRILLIANT alchemists I have met in person all across the world in my travels.

I have been contacted in PM by a few hetero forum members, suggesting that it might benefit the forum to revise some of its policies when it comes to racism, homophobia and general hate mongering.

To be honest, I don't like the idea. But also I don't like the idea of a couple of loud homophobes staining a generally friendly, non-hateful and cooperating online community.

We'll see...

Andro
06-24-2013, 09:34 AM
Before you watch (or don't watch) this short video (I think it also briefly touches on sexual orientation), I'll state for the record that I do NOT equate Creation and its marvels with the the sociopath 'Jehova' entity of the OT. My main reason for posting this video is that it's quite common for homophobes to anchor their points in what this OT 'god' entity is supposed to have allegedly 'intended'.

The bible certainly contains some valuable alchemical metaphors (albeit severely watered down, compared to the older sources they were copied or transcribed from), but many parts of it are also of a very political nature, which parts are better read in the context of the time(s), geographical location(s) and political climate(s) they were written for.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=rEtfdzNAE74

And a quote by Tyron Edwards:


Prejudices are rarely overcome by argument; not being founded in reason they cannot be destroyed by logic. — Tryon Edwards

Awani
06-24-2013, 09:50 AM
"Thou shall be butt-fucked on the third Sabbath of the seventh year to honor our Lord or his wrath will be cast upon thee." - Leviticus 3:67

Case closed.

:cool:

Awani
06-24-2013, 09:56 AM
A very interesting thing in the history of this forum is that of all the haters and people who have in the past been banned they all come from the USA. Never from any other part of the world. This is not due to the fact that there are more from the US here on the forum, we have a lot of non-US participants.

I have lived in the US so I can speak from direct experience.

The US has the highest amount of narrow-minded bigoted hypocritical dogma loving racist and homophobic people of any country in the world that I have visited (and I have lived and travelled to a lot of them). This is, IMO, because the US is the most brainwashed country in the world. It is not the freest country as Americans always hail it to be... they think it is but it is not. The only reason they can think this is because many who think so have never been anywhere else.

There are many here on the forum from the US that are not haters also. I am just saying of all the worst case scenarios we have had of haters they have always been American. Interesting I think.

Anyway this is off topic, but I thought I'd point it out due to the hating nature of this thread, which I by the way ain't treating that seriously... perhaps my tone has been missed in my posts but really some of my arguments are a joke... as much as what I am arguing against is a joke.

And I don't care about the old alchemists, they are not saints. They are human beings with just as many faults as we have. Don't put them on a pedestal. Read their works and be inspired, but why respect/revere them? I can only respect a man I have met. You don't know anyone from reading what they have written... most writers are liars and spin doctors.

:cool:

Orbital
06-24-2013, 12:03 PM
Not going to argue with you Dev. America has the most to lose, especially when it comes down to rights. The Bill of Rights and the Constitution are a part of the soil here, please tell me another nation that enjoys such rights? They still have debtors prisons in some European countries. It doesnt really matter though, this is a New World ORDER that we're entering into, or is already here. Every country on this planet is basically a farm and testing zone. Many European countries are so well off because of how willing the people are to follow the system. America is not the land of the free, more like land of the free-range. The Americans have to get a heavy dose of brainwashing to get us down to your European levels of lack of an idea of individual sovereignty, they want us here in the states grovelling to the state to give us our rights and to take care of us. I am thankful to be an American. Countries there in Europe largely have higher taxes, England is a fucking socialist nightmare, with many others following right behind. Now down to your queen. Haha all your monarchs there in Europe who act like they've been stripped of their powers, yet still retain their untold fortunes. The monarchs are largely still in power, but have to do things covertly these days in order to keep their necks. Racist, homophobic??? Look at the monarchies there in your European countries... Detestable incest rulers there, who are revered as gods among men. The queen and her family are nasty, but it's all inherently the same. Its like WW1... people fail to realize that all those european countries that were fighting eachother all were controlled by monarchies that were related. The queen in England and her lot are really of German descent, but took an english name to hide the truth from their people. We're all basically fucked.

Dev, just keep staying positive. Don't worry about the bad or give anything negative your energy or thoughts so it can just disappear. That's fucking dillusion and cowardice. Pretend and hiding from things is sick, your levels of indoctrination are seen in the things you type.

If you think there are really too many people on this planet do us all a favor and start reducing population levels by removing yourself, and take with you the same people that share your beliefs of real bigotry and hatred of your fellow man. Over population is the same shit those monarchs are shilling out, eat it up.

Awani
06-24-2013, 01:37 PM
The Americans have to get a heavy dose of brainwashing to get us down to your European levels of lack of an idea of individual sovereignty..

I am not trying to argue which is better (I despise socialism and monarchy more than most). There is no individual sovereignty anywhere, not in Europe and certainly not in the US. My point was ONLY that it is interesting that if we ever have people here on the forum that are very hateful towards X then it is usually an American.


That's fucking dillusion and cowardice. Pretend and hiding from things is sick, your levels of indoctrination are seen in the things you type.

I don't get where this is coming from? I'm not pretending or hiding from anything and I am certainly not indoctrinated unless you argue that Direct Experience is indoctrination... which in a way it is.


If you think there are really too many people on this planet do us all a favor and start reducing population levels by removing yourself, and take with you the same people that share your beliefs of real bigotry and hatred of your fellow man.

Are you saying I should kill myself? And are you seriously saying I have hatred of my fellow man? I am not the homophobe... how ironic... the above statement is, IMO, an echo of yourself... or so it seems judging from your posts in this thread.

--------------------------------------

Want a ban on racist/homophobic behavior/views or not a ban, vote here: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3637-Racism-and-Homophobia-ban

I have been asked to have ZERO TOLERANCE for racism and homophobia in this forum. Such things are not tolerated in most places in society, but I have the weird idea that censorship should not BE. Peoples personal beliefs are just that and nothing more. As long as personal attacks are not done I don't see a problem with someone saying "I think homosexuality is wrong"... if I did have a problem with it I would be no better. Fascism goes both ways.

Saying that I think people should have respect. If I find myself in a room full of devout Christians I don't enter a debate saying they are delusional/immoral/perverts... instead I try to understand them and if I don't agree than that is that. They can believe whatever they want.

So if I was against homosexuality and I find myself in a community where apparently there are a lot of people who accept homosexuality as an option to existence without prejudice I would thread careful. I would not start throwing bricks unless conflict is what is wished for... but flaming is not allowed here as it serves no purpose.

If we can't discuss Diversity In Sexual Orientation & Gender Identity tactfully then rather than censor one side of the issue I rather censor both sides... this way both the right and the wrong are punished (take your pick of which group you are in), and I can avoid having to censor either side.

So again... let's proceed without the hate... if not this thread will be closed. In fact there is not even a point to discussing if homosexuality is good or bad as it will never be resolved... same as if there is a God or not. We can't know. It is only opinions and choices and beliefs. Maybe you can only go to heaven if you rape kids... who the fuck knows... really... no one! We might think we do, but we don't 100 %. If anyone says they do know for certain anything 100 % then they are full of shit IMO.

If you (all of you) have a problem with diversity don't spend time at a forum... there is a risk there will be diversity present.

Thanks.

:cool:

PS
But I must honestly say I am surprised every time I encounter racism or homophobia. We deserve WWIII! It's fucking 2013 and we are still rolling around in the shit like cockroaches.... sigh...

Andro
06-24-2013, 02:16 PM
I have been asked to have ZERO TOLERANCE for racism and homophobia in this forum.

I have been asked the same. By hetero members...


I have the weird idea that censorship should not BE.

I also share this 'weird' idea (except for very rare cases, like spamming, or rampant insult/flaming/trolling campaigns, or like someone talking about computer games in the middle of a practical alchemy thread, or someone offering to sell an alchemical recipe for half a million dollars... Yes, those things did actually happen :))

But then again, I have never been exposed to this high level of rampant homophobia in an Alchemical community...

So I guess we'll just have to take The Vote: Should racist or homophobic views be banned at Alchemy Forums?
(http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3637-Racism-and-Homophobia-ban)
Please participate in this vote if this issue matters to you either way. The vote is completely anonymous.

Orbital
06-24-2013, 03:30 PM
Don't threaten me with a ban, just do it. Fuck, I'll disable my account for you. Good day gentleman. I'm glad it's been uncovered that this is a den of homosexuals. It should be called the "gay alchemy forums" the way some people love throwing the gay thing in everyone's faces, and can't accept that there are those that don't agree. We can get along, but you can't force anyone else to agree with your lifestyle.

I don't care which you think is better or not, you were the one that brought up the hole American vs European personality thing. You were also the one that brought up the whole over population issue. Im sure it does seem like the world is overpopulated the way they have you Euros crammed into major cities. You were also the one that talked about not giving energy or thoughts to the ideas presented by certain agendas that do exist, as if some things just go away if you don't believe in them... You're silly Dev, just as silly as some of these queers.

Take care

Awani
06-24-2013, 04:13 PM
"Prejudices are rarely overcome by argument; not being founded in reason they cannot be destroyed by logic. — Tryon Edwards

Can't comment on a post that is very confusing, and clearly is commenting on something I did not state... not in the manner it was understood anyway... either I was not clear enough in my argument or I was arguing a wall. What lifestyle do I force you to agree to? I am straight you know...

Ok so it is not okay to throw the gay thing in everyone's face but it is ok to throw that God/Jesus thing in everyones face?

Also we had a poll (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3361-The-Kinsey-Scale) a while back... seems there is actually a minority at these forums that are gay... but there is a majority that is ok with that minority.


I don't care which you think is better or not

What of these words I wrote did you not understand: I am not trying to argue which is better...

I asked a simple question: did you suggest I kill myself?


"Prejudices are rarely overcome by argument; not being founded in reason they cannot be destroyed by logic. — Tryon Edwards

:cool:

Thx G for that quote...

Orbital
06-25-2013, 06:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVuWdbZrQpc

What know ye, Dev? What know ye of alchemy and magick and higher things that exist in this reality and beyond? Deceive thyself in your dillusion, or open yourself up to truth. I only do this because I care for you and for all. My life means nothing to me, for I know it goes on. If I were to even begin to cloud myself with lies for an instant, what purpose would that serve?

Did I post something confusing to you? I'm sorry it was so befuddled.

Did I suggest you kill yourself? Not at all, but if you havent learned how to read between the line in your studies of the esoteric and the occult then there is no saving to be had for you or anyone else that wishes to tread this path.

This is my last post here on your alchemy forum.
Once again I say to you good day and take care.

Awani
06-25-2013, 09:41 AM
You are so condescending it is shocking.

Americans and their know-it-all. Yes now even I sound racist LOL, but I have become so tired of the American know-it-all attitude. Both from its government and many of its citizens... every know-it-all that we have had here at the forum have ALL been American so I am not making this shit up. Thank god there are at least some real Americans still around these days... I am talking of course of the Natives.

All the cool Americans here at the forum need not feel attacked by me, if you are cool enough you know what I mean. I think Swedish people are socialist assholes (apart from myself ;) ) so I am not saying either is better... just so bored with the know-it-all type that seems to reside between New York and California.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb4Aygk3NUs&feature=youtu.be

Finally Orbital if you know me as you pretend you do you would have figured out by now that I am having fun and making fun... that is all I can do when I meet racists and homophobes. Laughter is better than hate any day...

This thread will be cleaned.

:cool:

Ghislain
06-25-2013, 05:21 PM
I have to agree with much of what is said in Orbital’s Video link; I only skipped through it, but it is
nothing we have not seen or thought of for or ourselves before.

It is easy to spout all that stuff i.e. anti-establishment and “there’s a better way”, but what is that
better way? You form a small group, you instigate all the new wonderful rules then the group grows
and some don’t agree with this rule or that rule...chaos ensues. In the new fair world everyone has
an equal share, but then some realise they don’t have to do anything to get that equal share...what
do we do with those? ...blah blah blah!

I had an accident in the USA recently and thank fuck I had insurance, for the two weeks I was there
the bill was $8,000. I am still having treatment here in the UK and for two and a half months of treatment
my bill is £0. You may call me fortunate but I have been on full pay in the three months I have been in
recovery. Would this fit in to our new world order?

The UK landmass is capable of supporting 17 million people, we have a population of 60 million plus.

How will the new world order feed them...

In the vid it mentions old senile people...people are living much longer, years ago they were dead before
senility could set in. There are more than twelve thousand people over one hundred years old today, would
the new world order sanction compulsory euthanasia?

Talk is cheap (leave that to the politicians), but I do look forward to change, it’s interesting.

Ghislain

Andro
11-28-2013, 09:02 PM
I wouldn't have revived this thread hadn't I found this awesome TED talk.

The sound level of the talk is a bit low, so turn it up...

Your Sexuality: Ask and Tell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n5O9tz30So)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n5O9tz30So

Andro
06-07-2014, 10:06 AM
I may have said some harsh things in anger, to the two people from this thread who are no longer with us on AF.

If I said such harsh things, I'd like to take them back and apologize. I'm not angry at you.

I still think such perspectives are counterproductive for any serious Alchemical pursuit, but this is not the point I want to make here.

You were banned from AF for insulting and marginalizing an entire group of people. However, because of my personal bias, I was not involved with the banning decision.

So, although you cannot respond here, I just want to one-sidedly say I'm sorry if I said anything personally hurtful to you and I also want you to know there are no hard/hurt feelings on my part (anymore).

To quote Michael Stipe/REM: "That's who you are, that's what you could".

We all evolve at our own pace, and maybe you should be allowed to (mostly) do so in environments which only gently challenge the stage you're at, rather than harshly put you down for your opinions.

I DO think that homophobia (or any kind of equating non-hetero orientations with 'lesser' and/or 'defective') is 'on the verge of extinction', but evolution takes time, and it may not happen in my current lifetime. I have no problem with that.

Most importantly, I DO NOT HATE/JUDGE YOU FOR YOUR OPINIONS, FOR WHO YOU ARE AND FOR WHAT YOU REPRESENT.

You are part of my/our reality, because apparently there is still a need for experiencing your existence.

I forgive you for your insults. It's where you're at. We all have our issues, no exceptions.

I'm surely 'guilty' of other things myself, in need of rectification... Way it goes...

If anything, I should thank you for further fueling my own evolution/advancement with those fires of adversity and rejection. It only makes me stronger and hopefully also wiser.

I wish you peace of mind and a wise, loving, understanding heart.

Best to you both,

Androgynus.
_________________________________________

Wrapping it up with a heart-warming short video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JedpXFqjwCU

Andro
06-13-2014, 07:58 AM
Hilarious.

Otherwise, no comment.

Enjoy :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6jrngYNGNeE

Eshai
06-13-2014, 12:24 PM
Personally, I don't see how any government has any business dictating what social contracts people can or cannot engage in. Thus, I also don't see how the government has any business when it comes to any form of marriage, period. The social contract of marriage is a personal one, and has nothing to do with a secular state.

Andro
01-23-2015, 10:41 AM
Not directly related to the 'Apple (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4187-Apple-s-Broken-Promises-rights-taxes-and-utopias)' thread, so I'm posting this here:

Tim Cook Just Changed America In A Way Steve Jobs Never Could (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/30/tim-cook-coming-out-water_n_6075388.html?utm_hp_ref=technology&ir=Technology&utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_306801)

For those who aren't 'in the loop', I can say with great confidence that there are (and always have been) more GLBT people in the world than you could possibly imagine. 'They' (we) have been 'in the shadows' for so long, but the tide is apparently turning (once more).

For those who (erroneously) think that this is a 'new' or 'growing' phenomenon, well... A splash of cold water in the face can sometimes be quite therapeutic (if you don't bury your head in the sand to ditch it :))

Andro
12-17-2015, 12:23 PM
Interesting Ted Talk on Orientation Diversity:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAJ-5J21Rd0

zoas23
12-24-2015, 12:28 AM
One of my heroines.... Jayne County... a transexual woman in 1978 confronting an audience used to "traditional punk" and changing their views by bringing the most controversial sides of gender identity. A person who was, as she says, man enough to be a woman.

I've got a transexual feeling
It's hard to be true to the one that's really you
I got a scandalous feeling
It's hard to be true when they point and stare at you
Conditioned to portraying the mask of masculinity
Another blend of different shading
I am what I am
I don't give a damn

I wanna know, I wanna know
I wanna know, I wanna know...
Are you man enough to be a...woman?

Footprints on my window
There's a man in my room; he's riding a broom
He took all my money
The jerk made me hurt; he looked like a baboon
XY, XXY
Gender identity, I got the power to be it
A voice in my head
will not be dead

I wanna know, I wanna know
I wanna know, I wanna know...
Are you man enough to be a...woman?
Tell me


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ELPk8O28d4

Andro
11-08-2016, 04:08 PM
Andro: imagine if he said all gay people are baby rapists and should be imprisoned... how would you feel?

I've heard it being said quite often, actually. Even a (relatively new) member of this forum (who probably doesn't know me that well) with whom I exchanged a few PM's about alchemy, mentioned "on the side" that "homosexuality is a disease that should be treated", etc...

So it's not that I'm not used to racism and homophobia (more xenophobia and homophobia in my case, because my meat-sack is still "white"...)

So, if your decision is not to be a standard "journalist", then it's fair game. Go for it and say whatever you think is right! You have my support anyway, but this is not new :)


My own daughter is 25 % Arab and 25 % Tartar. So no. This is where I draw the line. Racist thinking and homophobic thinking should be stomped out.

And it is even more important to show this as a white male straight person. I am the top of society. I have to "lead" by example. The more white male straight people stand up against such views the stronger the effect.

I think this is admirable.

Watch the movie Pride (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3169706/) if you get the chance, based on a true story in the 80's, where gays and lesbians supported a most 'unlikely' ally: The miners and their strike & work conditions.

Awani
11-08-2016, 04:19 PM
I've heard about it. I'll check it out.

As for the PM person. I think that person should make himself known: Don't hide in the shadows. If you truly think that say it openly. If you don't dare to you are in the closet. The homophobia closet that is. LOL. Come out, come out...

:cool:

Andro
11-08-2016, 04:37 PM
As for the PM person. I think that person should make himself known: Don't hide in the shadows. If you truly think that say it openly. If you don't dare to you are in the closet. The homophobia closet that is. LOL. Come out, come out...

After the last outbreak of serial homophobic attacks that got two members banned for collectively attacking/insulting an entire group of people here (yes, there are quite a few GLBT/Q forum members), I doubt such a person would 'come out' of the homophobia closet.

It wouldn't be unlikely for very racist people to be present here in the shadows as well, and I doubt they would express such things openly. And in the end it ends with trolling and flame wars anyway, so, you know, everyone, just live and let live... Be and let be... Not THAT difficult, is it?

Dwellings
11-08-2016, 05:54 PM
@Dev @Andro

Unless someone else has talked to Andro, that guy was me.


I look at the "lifestyle" of Homosexuality as immoral, and a detriment to the human race as a whole...I do not even need to go into any details here about how homosexuality is biologically against the human species as a whole... What people forget is that it is the Jews themselves that are behind all the promotion of Gay and Lesbian "rights"... These arch-criminals have used that "lifestyle" as a means of again destroying the Gentile family unit, and have now been openly promoting it in their sick media....And in case anyone has been wondering, it is even written in their "Protocols" as another method of undermining and destroying their primary opposition, the Caucasian race, as a whole! Therefore, Yes, I am against homosexuality and I say that promotion of that sickness must be stopped...If people want to continue that "lifestyle" that is their choice, and they should not be allowed to openly promote it in our schools, media, or any public venue....What they do behind closed doors should stay behind closed doors and should not be rammed down our throats through the Jew spew media....If people don't like my statements about this sickness, too bad....

Source: http://northerntruthseeker.blogspot.in/2014/02/northerntruthseeker-rant-for-sunday_9.html

I do not argue with people regarding the gender stuff. I am fine with them being Gay or whatever but this para explains my internal thoguhts. I always deal with anyone only with the topic at hand.

Also, you do know that its those jews that control porn and media and have a look at their thoughts.

https://www.darkmoon.me/2014/pornography-as-a-secret-weapon-by-lasha-darkmoon/
https://www.darkmoon.me/2013/secret-sex-life-of-the-jews-by-lasha-darkmoon/

They are also thrashing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This just goes on to show their moral values.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Though I have never met you people, I have already gone through most/all of your posts, so maybe I can claim I know your mindset to a certain extent.

ArcherSage
11-08-2016, 06:35 PM
Dwellings...are you ok lol.

Andro
11-08-2016, 06:48 PM
Unless someone else has talked to Andro, that guy was me.

There was no one else.


I always deal with anyone only with the topic at hand.

That's good to know.


This just goes on to show their moral values.

No. It only shows one belief system clashing with another belief system. Also, people trash and hurt each other constantly, for a multitude of "reasons", this being only one of many, WAY too many IMO.

Haven't religious bigotry, hatred and war caused enough suffering and bloodshed?

I personally prefer the 'live and let live' approach, which implies a much deeper understanding than mere dogma. If "love thy neighbour" means anything, that is :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have never met you people

"you people" ? ? ?

Besides, you have most likely already met "us people" without even knowing so. Unlike skin color, it's not necessarily blatantly obvious.


maybe I can claim I know your mindset to a certain extent.

And what mindset would that be?

Dwellings
11-08-2016, 06:55 PM
"you people"? ? ?
Besides, you have most likely already met "us people" without even knowing so. Unlike skin color, it's not necessarily blatantly obvious.
And what mindset would that be?

I did not understand your response to you people. Kindly elaborate. The phrase you people is commonly used in India. Don't know about its usage in EU.

Regarding mindset, a fairly open and modern mindset is what I meant.

You pretend as though as the banking system, the govt, media and everything is fair even when your own LiberateLife speaks contrary to what you have replied to me.

Belief is fine but when it goes contrary to the laws of nature and the commandmends of God that is unacceptable IMO. Also thrashing and mocking Jesus Christ is something I can never forgive them for even though I am not a Christian myself.

Andro
11-08-2016, 07:02 PM
Regarding mindset, a fairly open and modern mindset is what I meant.

Thanks for explaining.


I did not understand your response to you people. Kindly elaborate. The phrase you people is commonly used in India. Don't know about its usage in EU.

In the West, it's often used by individuals perceiving themselves as 'better' or 'normal' to address (in a crude and generalized manner) entire groups of people who are perceived as 'lesser'.

Often used (especially in the past, but to this day as well) by whites towards blacks, for example. As in: "you've seen one, you've seen them all".

Dwellings
11-08-2016, 07:16 PM
Thanks for explaining.
In the West, it's often used by individuals perceiving themselves as 'better' or 'normal' to address (in a crude and generalized manner) entire groups of people who are perceived as 'lesser'.
Often used (especially in the past, but to this day as well) by whites towards blacks, for example. As in: "you've seen one, you've seen them all".

Sorry if I have offended you. Never knew that what is common in one would be bad in another

Andro
11-08-2016, 07:18 PM
You pretend as though as the banking system, the govt, media and everything is fair even when your own LiberateLife speaks contrary to what you have replied to me.

You're putting words in my mouth. Those 'agencies' are damaging to whites and blacks, gays and hets alike.


Belief is fine but when it goes contrary to the laws of nature and the commandments of God that is unacceptable IMO.

The "laws of nature" are way more complex than meets the untrained eye. As for the "commandments of God", unless God shared them with you in person, it's just something you have read in a book. A book with great PR, though :)


Also thrashing and mocking Jesus Christ is something I can never forgive them for even though I am not a Christian myself.

Well, I personally have no problem with JC (whether allegorical or historically real), and most certainly not 'trashing'. Maybe you're projecting too much into it... Just like media/governments/etc... Always pigeonholing and generalizing...

In an "ideal" world, one's race or sexual orientation would be a complete non-issue. But we do not live in this world, nor do I think we ever will.

Dwellings
11-08-2016, 07:30 PM
You're putting words in my mouth. Those 'agencies' are damaging to whites and blacks, gays and hets alike.
The "laws of nature" are way more complex than meets the untrained eye. As for the "commandments of God", unless God shared them with you in person, it's just something you have read in a book. A book with great PR, though :)
Well, I personally have no problem with JC (whether allegorical or historically real), and most certainly not 'trashing'. Maybe you're projecting too much into it... Just like media/governments/etc... Always pigeonholing and generalizing...
In an "ideal" world, one's race or sexual orientation would be a complete non-issue. But we do not live in this world, nor do I think we ever will.

By laws of nature, I do not mean difficult stuff. Have you ever seen Lions mating with Lions or Lioness mating with Lioness. It only happens in human society and is a result of perversion introduced by porn and propoganda by the media.

Regarding Christ, I see God in him and by mocking him they are indirectly mocking God yet these clowns say they are the Chosen Ones and God has given them their land ie Israel.

ArcherSage
11-08-2016, 07:55 PM
Actually animals have sex with their own gender all the time.

Andro
11-08-2016, 08:09 PM
By laws of nature, I do not mean difficult stuff. Have you ever seen Lions mating with Lions or Lioness mating with Lioness. It only happens in human society and is a result of perversion introduced by porn and propaganda by the media.

Non-hetero orientations have existed LONG before today's mass media. And they also DO exist in the Animal Kingdom (https://www.google.com/search?q=gay+animals), if you do a bit of research. There are even species who can 'fertilize' themselves.

Personally, I am not prepared to allow what I consider to be a non-issue to side-track exchanges on the topic of our common interest: Alchemy.

For me: Common Ground = Holy Ground.

We may disagree at the periphery, but when we manage to operate (or simply BE) from (and as) the One Universal Center, I believe all disagreements will vanish as if they never happened.

Personally, I prefer harmony over conflict, fertile common ground over the destructive battlefield of warring parties.

I also realize that the cultural differences between Western European and Indian mentalities may cause semantic misunderstandings.

zoas23
11-08-2016, 09:06 PM
By laws of nature, I do not mean difficult stuff. Have you ever seen Lions mating with Lions or Lioness mating with Lioness. It only happens in human society and is a result of perversion introduced by porn and propoganda by the media.

Regarding Christ, I see God in him and by mocking him they are indirectly mocking God yet these clowns say they are the Chosen Ones and God has given them their land ie Israel.

Yes, my dog is gay.
(He lived in the streets for the first 3 or 4 years of his life, then my girlfriend picked him and it became our dog).
And with gay, I mean that he's not bisexual, but 100% gay. I never thought he was pervert (except when he steals food from the kitchen).
I never saw him interested in porn or watching porn... and I am not sure about the literature he prefers, but I know he doesn't watch TV or read the newspapers.

Maybe the liberal society made my dog gay? I can't discard the idea, but I think it's very unlikely.
I never talked about Religion with him either, but maybe he is Jewish (I can't discard the option).

What do I do with my gay dog who may also be Jewish? What would you do with him? (His name is Vinilo)

As Jesus said: "Have mercy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbkgK-eQqpk

P.S, my closest friend is transgender, which is quite a brave choice in our societies: Are you man enough to be a woman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KwcyI3OH04), Dwellings?

Awani
11-08-2016, 09:44 PM
They are also thrashing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This just goes on to show their moral values.

It is a well known fact that Jesus Christ was gay and the main reason for Judas treason was due to jealousy, because it was so hard for Judas to see Jesus Christ blow his disciples.

Jesus is my homeboy. If he ever comes back he will be very angry at all the gay bashing that has been going on since he left.

No joke.

:cool:

ArcherSage
11-09-2016, 04:33 AM
Yeshua was likely straight according to the gospel of phillip (or is it thomas?), its a gnostic text that describes Yeshua and Mary (miriam) kissing on the mouth frequently. The sacred bridegroom at work perhaps. (dev I know you were being sarcastic) lol

hexahedron
11-09-2016, 06:36 AM
Is alchemy magic?
Does magic strictly rely on meiotic reproduction for creation?
I think we would be setting our sights a little low if we strictly rely on this form of magic to accomplish the things we want.
If we stick too closely to the conventions of society, we will miss out on the subtle secrets of the universe.
Isn't that what this is all about?
I think a lot of great magic users in the past were of a different sexual or gender orientation that the conventional heterosexual couple.
Being marginalized in society increased stress levels, while at the same time freeing up time to pursue various arts.
It is speculated that many of the great artists were not heterosexual, and look at the amazing things they created!
I think sticking to a too conventional view will definitely blind us to what might be right in front of our face.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction sounds like a conventional man plus woman equals infinity.
The thing is that infinity encompasses so much more than static reproduction.
Random free radicals and variables make the pattern unique, and new, and infinite.
A colony of ants doesn't rely on every one of its members to be a heterosexual couple of a male and female ant.
If they did, then the colony would explode in overpopulation.
There is a certain growth coefficient needed to keep balance and ward off death.
If this value can be low, that means that death is low, and that can be a source for rejoicing.
If the reproduction count is high, then death and war sometimes run high as well.
We all play our role in society.
Shouldn't heterosexual people who want to reproduce be happy that there are strong supportive members of the community that do not want to reproduce?
I'd love to say that being homosexual instantly grants you mage or sorcerer status, but I am sure this comes with practice and patience.
I am more interested in learning to see the invisible, transform the world around me, and find secrets and places I did not know were there.
I feel I have developed myself spiritually, and continue to do so.
I will be an ever work-in-progress.

zoas23
11-09-2016, 08:15 AM
Is alchemy magic?
Does magic strictly rely on meiotic reproduction for creation?
I think we would be setting our sights a little low if we strictly rely on this form of magic to accomplish the things we want.
If we stick too closely to the conventions of society, we will miss out on the subtle secrets of the universe.
Isn't that what this is all about?

I LOVED your post.
I don't think alchemy and magic are the same thing... BUT I think that a TRUE magical philosophy is the real key to alchemy. What is this philosophy? I can't explain it better than you did.
A lot of things lead me to Hermeticism... and I must say that my first love was magic, not alchemy (which came later).
This spoken word song which I heard for the first time around 1995 or 1996, which echoes your ideas, was like a true epiphany for me:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRGkcWE22Ug

The world "natural" is our current equivalent for the old meaning of "endoxa", something that Aristotle loved (did I say that I despise him?)... the "endoxa", those things which are taken as true because they have been repeated again and again, passed from a generation to the following one for centuries... our "common sense", our limited vision of the world, the "consensus reality".

Magic and alchemy (which are in my opinion 2 different things) BEGIN when the "endoxa" is discarded.
Our established opinions of what each gender is meant to do is the biggest trap... and it only involves accepting an identity and a set of beliefs which have been given to us as if they were the only possible truth. A false sense of "righteousness" and "virtue" justified by what our societies consider that is "normal and natural".

The words "normal", "natural", "common sense" have become the equivalent of hell.
As you've said, alchemy comes from different persons who simply said: "What is this idiocy about? What are these stupid prejudices? Well... I don't wanna be part of it, I'd rather think by myself".

One of the most interesting and refreshing posts I've read in a long time... which made me remember how I got interested in Hermeticism when I was quite young. Thank you for writing it.

Those who murdered Socrates are celebrating tonight the triumph of the will of D. Trump... Thus it's a nice day to celebrate something different, celebrating that we are not part of that bullshit.

Andro
11-09-2016, 09:03 AM
Yeshua was likely straight according to the gospel of phillip (or is it thomas?), its a gnostic text that describes Yeshua and Mary (miriam) kissing on the mouth frequently.

I haven't really inquired into the sexual orientation of JC...

This being said, it's actually quite common for gay males to kiss women on the mouth, to express (non-sexual) affection.

Affection and its expressions are not limited and/or defined by sexual orientation, as I see it.

I have female friends whom I love deeply, just not in a sexual/romantic way. I also have MALE friends whom I love deeply, just not in a sexual/romantic way.

I don't have many close friends, but with the few ones that I have, there is always affection involved, beyond mere 'common areas of interest' and such.

hexahedron
11-13-2016, 12:50 AM
Thank you for your positime response, zoas23. I was definitely a bit nervous to see what was said when I looked back at this thread. Especially with so much negativity and opinion flying about. I expect as much when posting online though I suppose hahaha.
I am glad that my post made you happy. That's what kind of environment I am looking for in pursuing any kind of alchemical or magiCal endeavor. Since we are working in unknown territory it makes sense to drop our pretenses and try to just enjoy the experience. If anyone has insight into phenomena that involve other views than my own I would be very interested to hear about them and would hope people are as respectful towards my own experience e and views as I am of theirs. No worries either way though :)

Zoas23 what kind of things are you interested in alchemy? How do these tie into sexuality or gender identity?? Or do they at all?

Andro
11-13-2016, 01:09 AM
I was definitely a bit nervous to see what was said when I looked back at this thread.

It's water under the bridge now :)

I, too, appreciate what you have posted.

You're also welcome to participate in our Kinsey Scale (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3361-The-Kinsey-Scale) survey, if you wish to!

Awani
11-13-2016, 01:13 AM
Especially with so much negativity and opinion flying about.

Most of those people are banned. ;) Alchemy Forums don't care where you stick your dick (if you are a man)... as long as the person that receives it agrees to it. :)

My own view on what importance sexual orientation has when studying alchemy is the same view I have on the importance on what clothes you wear. Or if you wipe your ass with your left or right hand.

:cool:

zoas23
11-13-2016, 02:18 AM
Thank you for your positime response, zoas23. I was definitely a bit nervous to see what was said when I looked back at this thread. Especially with so much negativity and opinion flying about. I expect as much when posting online though I suppose hahaha.
I am glad that my post made you happy. That's what kind of environment I am looking for in pursuing any kind of alchemical or magiCal endeavor. Since we are working in unknown territory it makes sense to drop our pretenses and try to just enjoy the experience. If anyone has insight into phenomena that involve other views than my own I would be very interested to hear about them and would hope people are as respectful towards my own experience e and views as I am of theirs. No worries either way though :)

Zoas23 what kind of things are you interested in alchemy? How do these tie into sexuality or gender identity?? Or do they at all?

Thank you! I am writing in a rush because my girlfriend and I are cooking and I don't wanna leave her alone in the kitchen (the BEST girlfriend possible, but a distracted cooker!).

I will need to reply as if it was a telegram.

1) I loved your post, I already said it... and we have the same views.

2) In alchemy I see a meta-philosophy of the universe, of life... A culture which I love.

3) I do NOT relate my sexuality with alchemy... NOTHING is more sacred then love to me, I am heterosexual and VERY monogamous (never had "casual sex" in my whole life)... these are not ethical choices, in the same way that being gay, bisexual or transgender is not an ethical choice. I'm strongly against mixing sex with ANYTHING (in MY case, I have no problem with those who do). No Tantra, no "sex magic", no "inner sexual alchemy", etc (for ME). My union with my partner is already sacred for me, maybe the most sacred thing... and as some alchemical texts say: "it needs nothing foreign to improve it". both my GF and I are interested in alchemy and magic... but we do not mix such interest with our relationship. I have no objection if someone does it, but I don't and I know why I don't (I can't improve perfection... and with perfection I mean LOVE).

4) Gender identity or sexual orientation? My sexual orientation is clear for me, I'm heterosexual (it's not a choice)... and for gender identity, my motto is "fuck gender roles" (as I've said, my relationship is with a woman... but I don't expect her to do certain things because "she is a woman" and she does not expect me to do certain things because "I am a man"... deconstructing what society understands as "man" and "woman" is something important for me).

Pardon the "telegram style" and thank you for your kindness.. rushing to the kitchen, because my GF is dangerous in that area! hahaha... I don't wanna eat coal tonight!

5) My tolerance for homophobia, racism and silly ideas is ZERO.

elixirmixer
11-15-2016, 03:44 AM
They have done studies on older gay men.

Turns out that a huge... HUGE percentage of homosecual males develope chronic depression later on in life and that the suicide rate is a lot higher than for heterosexual people.

I dont get the whole "Its not a choice" BS.

Everything is a choice.... If you feel like you have no choice than its only because you have brought yourself into a spiritual bondage by subconscious sicknesses. We as human beings ARE choice. Quite literally, everything else we experience is just the biochemical happenings of the choices we have spiritually made.

Perfection can be improved upon... For instance, your perfect union with your gf could potentially flower into marriage and children ect...

Just like the white gold calx is a clean pure body of gold, the Stone has obvious improvements.

I am heterosexual, but i could be gay if i wanted to, i just choose not to be because its just like smoking, drinking or any other obviously poisonous activity, sure it might feel good at the time, but after ten, twenty years, you will see the effects that in the beginning were too subtle to notice.

The fact that 'society' is pushing to bring homosexual behaviour into a politically accepted position, IMO, is just further evidence of the decay of our society. And even if a bunch of homophobi-phobes have a problem with that statement, i don't think it's one that can really be knocked, since there exists so much written history about how the wild bi-sexual nature of roman officials became so distracting and polluting to the mind that their entire civilisation fell into a state of disorder and confusion.

God said being gay is one of the highest sin's, second only to murder...

We hardly yet understand the energetic consequences that occur on a planet when billions of intelligent creatures are all CHOOSING to have sex. To start 'freestyling' with our sexual desires i think is kind of like researching nuclear fussion without considering how many millions of people would be killed as a result.

I bent over a bloke once. It sucked. Being gay must really really suck. Not to mention that the only people who will ever really respect you are, women, other gay men, or really feminine men. At least in Australia.

The world might have become openly tolerant, but it will never be truly accepting of this practise... IMO it is a VERY low form of sexuality, which leads to a VERY low form of spirituality.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS! Haven't you seen a hot chick naked or something? I'm a curves man :cool:

zoas23
11-15-2016, 05:51 AM
They have done studies on older Mormon men.

Turns out that a huge... HUGE percentage of Mormon males develope chronic depression later on in life and that the suicide rate is a lot higher than for people who don't follow a pedophile religion.

I dont get the whole "Its not a choice" BS.

Everything is a choice.... If you feel like you have no choice than its only because you have brought yourself into a spiritual bondage by subconscious sicknesses. We as human beings ARE choice. Quite literally, everything else we experience is just the biochemical happenings of the choices we have spiritually made... Like living according to the weird ideas which are allegedly written in a golden book that nobody ever saw, though it's a clear plagiarism of the rectified Scottish Rite.

Perfection can be improved upon... For instance, your perfect union with your daughter could potentially flower into incest and children, etc...

Just like the white gold calx is a clean pure body of gold, some other things are bullshit.

I am heterosexual, but I could be Mormon if i wanted to, I just choose not to be because it's just like smoking, drinking or any other obviously poisonous activity, sure it might feel good at the time, but after ten, twenty years, you will see the effects that in the beginning were too subtle to notice. And wearing a bizarre pseudo-masonic underwear as to avoid going to hell is quite silly.

The fact that 'society' is pushing to bring Mormonic behaviour into a politically accepted position, IMO, is just further evidence of the decay of our society. And even if a bunch of Trump enthusiasts have a problem with that statement, I don't think it's one that can really be knocked, since there exists so much written history about how the wild incestuous nature of the Mormon officials (http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/forum/topics/heavenly-incest-believed-by-older-generations-of-lds-men) became so distracting and polluting to the mind that their entire civilization fell into a state of disorder and confusion.

God said being an idiot is one of the highest sin's, second only to not respecting the others.

We hardly yet understand the energetic consequences that occur on a planet when billions of intelligent creatures are all CHOOSING to have sex. To start 'freestyling' with our desires for our daughters... I think is kind of like researching nuclear fusion without considering how many millions of people would be killed as a result.

I bent over a Mormon once. It sucked. Being Mormon must really really suck. Not to mention that the only people who will ever really respect you are Mormons, or other Mormons or really Mormon men (yeah, the others will think you are nuts). At least on this planet.

The world might have become openly tolerant, but it will never be truly accepting of this practise... IMO it is a VERY low form of sexuality, which leads to a VERY low form of spirituality...

The incestuous desires of a freak with a laughable story about a golden book.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS! Haven't you seen a non-misogynist religion or something? I hate bullshit and idiocy :cool:


------------------------------------------

Awani
11-15-2016, 05:51 AM
They have done studies on older gay men...

Well one reason, if your stats are true, is that a life of ridicule might eventually catch up... I mean we have not yet had really old homosexuals that have lived their whole life without shame (thanks to society). In about 30-40 years (in certain countries only I might add) we will have our first homosexuals that have lived a "normal" life. So your statistics are made on gays that had to live through a time when they were close to imprisonment or at least close to loosing their jobs, violence, ridicule etc. Truly "free" homosexuals only exist in certain countries in the world (where I live being one of them)... and even so this is not much older than the fucking iPhone. It's a new thing and still being worked on.

I somewhat agree with you that everything is a choice. But think of a certain food you hate... a food you just cannot eat. Sure... you can make the choice of eating that food till you get used to it (if you ever could). Now imagine food you love more than anything. Imagine eating that food you hate for the rest of your life and never eating the food you love.

So yes there is a choice, but some choices are not meant to be made (or choices you don't want to make).


God said being gay is one of the highest sin's, second only to murder...

God is a faggot. At least the one you speak of. Everyone knows homophobic people/gods are closet-homosexuals. This is common knowledge.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/973d89252b982ff9e1ca70fc0716e7d2_zpskbwhik3a.gif

zoas23: LOL, your post confused me, I almost deleted is as a double post...

:cool:

Andro
11-15-2016, 09:39 AM
zoas23: LOL, your post confused me, I almost deleted is as a double post...

Hehe... Confused me too, so I highlighted some parts as quotes... but after looking at it, I 'saw the light' and that is was best just the way it was posted originally :)

elixirmixer
11-16-2016, 09:55 AM
They have done studies on older Mormon men....



That was fucking hilarious Zoas. Well done :)

EDIT: I did forget to add that i dont have a problem with gay people. I have gay friends, quite a few, but just that i think it may or may not be un-healthy, that's all.

Dev had some very good points. It would be interesting to see some long term statistics on wether or not im just an old school conservative prick.

Time will tell.

Awani
11-16-2016, 11:08 AM
im just an old school conservative prick.

I praise you for this insight. Always healthy to be able to admit such things. Time will tell if you are right or not. :)

Sincerely a new age liberal asshole.

:cool:

Andro
11-16-2016, 01:19 PM
i think it may or may not be un-healthy, that's all.

Interesting how a couple of well-crafted exchanges can bring out the inner politician in all of us :)

In any case, admitting the possibility that one's views are not infallible is a very good sign... and it IS appreciated, for what it's worth... Finding common ground is IMO much more productive and harmonious that focusing on 'rights' & 'wrongs'...


They have done studies on older Mormon men.

Apparently "they" have also done some studies on YOUNGER Mormon men :cool:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLjSzCjZUJA

zoas23
11-16-2016, 07:20 PM
That was fucking hilarious Zoas. Well done :).

"As we dwell on the Threshold to one extreme, the intrinsic being in prematurely nascent, creating a CHAOS of reflection. When we gaze in the mirror of our Self, and see our works as others judge them, then we realize our insignificance to the incomprehensible intellect of the absolute; and find how subcutaneous our attainments are." -Austin Spare

https://s15.postimg.org/n8hsui3u3/Captura_de_pantalla_2016_11_16_a_las_4_10_05_p_m.p ng

https://soundcloud.com/cyberliers-1/thee-majesty-when-i-was-young

hexahedron
11-16-2016, 09:41 PM
Unfortunately many scientists don't understand causation and correlation. Correlation can be caused by extraneous factors... such as in this case possibly discrimination. I recently found out that when Jewish people were released from concentration camps, homosexuals and transgendered people were not.
It's really sad to see people say that homosexuals are not respected by anyone but women and gay men. I think that really just speaks to the individual's opinion. I mean homosexuals, women and effeminate men respect them?! That's like 75% of people.... that's the majority... so the minority of people discriminate? And they are heterosexual men with differing views? Should that bother anyone? Well... not unless that minority is motivated to harass or harm a small group of people with different views and lifestyles.
That's too bad!
Women's opinions should matter. Traditionally that is not the case, but women have done a lot of amazing things.
I don't think homosexuality is poison. Historically there were some really great nations that embraced homosexuality... roman empire was pretty big... Japan was too... if history shows us anything it's that homosexuals make awesome military leaders. They're not very good at reproducing though. I suppose that could be a choice... good choice as a military general. No liabilities like a family to hold ransome.
I don't think sex and reproduction has a ton to do with magic or alchemy. Maybe certain kinds of alchemy and magic but I don't think those are of personal interest to me.
I think a lot of the time when you mix "purity" with "reproduction" you end up with "incest" which I think could be an avenue of great metamorphic change... Maybe too unpredictable though... so not safe... I don't believe in eugenics and I don't find my siblings attractive so it's not my tool of choice. I always wondered if that wasn't a way that different species of animals came about. I doubt it but it was an interesting thought experiment.
I also think women are more magically minded... in the past we as a global society have mostly focused on men's strengths, so we haven't managed to glean any of the strengths coming from the female personality with as much precision. Women are more empathic and understand things by intuition (to be completely stereotyping here) in a way that most men don't. If magic were completely analytical and logic based, our male-centric society would have discovered it by now wouldnt they?
Anyway I'm rambling now so I'll post and see what happens.

elixirmixer
11-17-2016, 12:16 AM
I'm going to move this convo away from the topics of cultural perception and more into an investigation into the possibilities that I have claimed; that 'spiritually' speaking, it is counter-intuitive to align with a homosexual vibration... and i being with this:

Genesis Chap 2 verse 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
957 955


God is a faggot

Well.... not quite... in fact its more like this:

956

God is in fact both male, and female. This is why (Genesis chap 1 verse 26) "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth"

and THEN....

(Chap 2 verse 18) And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

God quite literally is anhydrous, and then after making us in this image:

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs (this could be interpreted to mean "side"), and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Okay so that is the basis of what I would like to talk about now which is the spiritual requirements that are prerequisite to being 'full' for lack of a better word. Whole. Holy.

Now, we are Alchemists right, and i think a picture says a thousand words:

959

Do we not, as alchemists, seek to find a perfect balance between the elements and the attributes, in order that we may conjure up a greater element, in the form of quintessence?

Does not tantric alchemy seek to forge a union with sol and luna?

Does not laboritory alchemy seek to forge a union between sol and luna?

Does not spiritual alchemy, seek to forge a union between soul and spirit?

Are we not dancing in a beautiful cosmic courtship between opposing sexual forces that seek to be united?

Cold/Hot
Push/Pull
Tui/La.

Now to finish this off with a sweet as blow to your forever shrinking nut bags:

Oh... lucky for all of you i've reached the upload limit.... Nevertheless, my next post will have the crowd pleasing finisher :cool:

elixirmixer
11-17-2016, 12:18 AM
I just wanted to finish on this:

960

I stand by my view that homo-sexuality is not in the best interest of the practitioner; however, it is their choice what they do with their body. So many people fail to reach these higher levels of spirituality that it hardly seems to matter whether or not someone is gay because it probably wouldn't make a dam bit of difference in the long run anyway unless they truly are on the path to self transformation, in which case i think it an inevitable part of the path of the homo-sexual, to swallow his pride, as we all must, in order to accept the truth, as we all should.

Thank you. Peace to all.

hexahedron
11-17-2016, 12:44 AM
Male and female energy combined yields a neutral energy. Prima materia is one goal of alchemy. Gold is another. I'm not sure if either have gender but I don't think the ultimate goal is to add positive and negative and get zero. Not to mention that some people could potentially be neutral by nature. Men of negative star signs ie water and earth and women of positive nature ie fire and air theoretically could be neutral.

I don't think homosexual vibration would be destructive... it would be more like the doppler effect... so you could have very strong energy if you had a gay couple and a lesbian couple get together to perform some kind of energy transference... which wouldn't need to involve sex.

Plus quoting the bible doesn't necessarily constitute alchemy or magic. I do believe that the Bible is a book of magic but it states that magic is evil, so I wouldn't use it as a definitive guide.

zoas23
11-17-2016, 02:10 AM
I'm going to move this convo away from the topics of cultural perception and more into an investigation into the possibilities that I have claimed; that 'spiritually' speaking, it is counter-intuitive to align with a homosexual vibration...

What the hell is a homosexual vibration????



Does not laboritory alchemy seek to forge a union between sol and luna?

Does not spiritual alchemy, seek to forge a union between soul and spirit?

https://s12.postimg.org/h67fe6brh/TAICHI_TU_1.jpg

Since it's obvious that you are heterosexual and you like having female partners... I am surprised that a woman accepted to have sex with someone who thinks that he is the Heaven and she is the Earth, that he's rational and she's emotional, that he's hard and she's soft, that he's light and she's heavy, that he's like the sun and she's like the moon... and that he's the higher soul and she's the spirit.

I am heterosexual too, but if I had those misogynist views, I would probably prefer to be gay.

Lab alchemy is unrelated to sexual orientations and genders... Assuming that males are the Soul and females are the Spirit is completely misunderstanding the point of alchemy and life.

Your view get close to charts like this one:

http://screenmediaucsd.wikispaces.com/-/Term%20Wiki%20WI15/Team%2015/file/view/aljflakjf.jpg/542344844/601x326/aljflakjf.jpg

... and the idea that God's greatest creation (men) should find a balance with something that is almost like his excrements (women)... Thankfully that is not alchemy, but misogynist prejudices...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCAB7cy0ORY

Awani
11-17-2016, 02:59 AM
Well.... not quite... in fact its more like this...

If you claim something is a fact and the next thing you talk about is what it says in the Bible, then you are talking to the wrong person. Sorry, my imagination has limits.

Read (http://www.tickld.com/x/the-next-time-someone-uses-the-bible-to-say-homosexuality-is-a-sin).

:cool:

elixirmixer
11-17-2016, 04:34 AM
To be able to notice and comprehend the OBVIOUS differences in males and female, and more generalised, masculinity, and femininity, is hardly misogynist prejudice. That's right up the "Islamist's beat women" argument. It could be equally thought that having no appreciation for differences in house hold roles could be considered ignorance (know thy self) not to mention plain old stupidity and a lack of common sense.

It sounds to me like what is trying to be said is that, yes; hot and cold exist and we need them in alchemy. Light and dark exist; and we need them in nature, but that male and female is just a grey haze, that they are not essential, that they don't really MEAN anything... the concept that all of nature spirals around pulsating di-poles, of which we reflect, just happens to be a coincidence; that has no greater spiritual meaning or purpose, but rather, that if your a boy who feels like a girl inside, God made a mistake, which can be easily rectified by changing clothes and sexual orientation; this concept, is fucking stupidity. Blindness lead by ego, ego lead by a need to 'fit in' regardless of any moral or divine condition, leading to a surge of emotion and radicalists who will stop at nothing than to suppress the heterosexual view, despite that in most cases there is neither rationalisation used in these arguments, or any GOOD REASON as to why we need to change the way we have been doing things for the last 6000 years (other than of course, that we might offend the queers). If you take a look around, the world is going to the pack (hell) and its only now, when evil is at its greatest, that we see the homosexual perspective reach any level of acceptance. To be considered healthy, in what is a deeply sick society, is no achievement at all.

Yes i know the world is having a bitch fit about how gays are treated, but like I said, I'm not really referring to "What culture perceives as correct or incorrect". I am simply showing that nature, history, even the fucking maths, suggests that there are indeed ROLES of males and females... (THAT CAN COMPLEMENT EACH OTHER)...ie: greater than the sum of its parts. DESIRABLE OUTCOMES AKA: YOU WANT IT, ITS GOOD FOR YOU.

It wouldn't be too good if the sun and moon had even amounts of light would it? we would all be dead.


that he's like the sun and she's like the moon

And this is my point exactly. If you fall into this gay pop culture and allow it to mess with your views of the world, you are likely to be damned spiritually. If you cannot see the deep correlations between your own masculinity, and that of the suns energy, then how will you ever accept the greater truths. I thought it was just common sense, but when stepping on egg shells around people who may or may not be offended by a more classical way of looking at things, then we fall into a place where the truth is just farts, knowledge is just mass blogging, and where nature is once again, an accident, of no real meaning, all the symbology of nature just being a coincidence, in which case, nothing really matters and i might as well just go suck a dick.

There are spiritual implications for how we choose to express our sexuality. That's a fact. I know a girl who is drop dead gorgeous and has chosen to stay a virgin, shes coming on 19 and i don't think we could have more respect for the girl. I also know girls that have been spreading their legs since well before that age, of which such women seldom receive any respect from our peers, are often used and abused because of such lack in respect, and lead quite miserable lives. And that is an example of how the choices we make sexually, effect our lives, without even referring to homosexuals.

Just trying to state me as a homophobe is no argument at all. Like i said, I'm not a homophobe. I've fucked a bloke. I have gay friends. I just think that all kinds of sexual self mutilation (excessive ejaculation being one of the most common) is negative for the human being, has been warned against since the beginning, and when put under the 'rationalisation' microscope, hetero wins every time.

Bottom line for me is that you never see this anywhere:

961

There is NO symbology to confirm homosexuality as a correct path.

There is PLENTY of symbology to suggest that holy matrimony is indeed beneficial when practised correctly and that it can lead to God-hood. Don't believe me, go argue with the Hindu's, or Mormons, or Rostcrucians, or any other, high spiritual discipline.

Homosexuality has always been deemed a 'lower' 'base' level of consciousness, I see no reason as to why that should change. It's not exactly an 'achievement' like say, having a baby, is.

EDIT: If God was a poof, I'd be able to shit kids out my arse. End of.

Awani
11-17-2016, 05:47 AM
There is NO symbology to confirm homosexuality as a correct path.

That is because it is irrelevant to any path. I can become enlightened, or I can create the Stone in the lab regardless of what I like to fuck, or what I like to wear... or what my name is or any such things. IRRELEVANT.

As for "islamists beat women" you are aware that women are beaten by all men in all cultures and beliefs?


Homosexuality has always been deemed a 'lower' 'base' level of consciousness...

I agree that it has for a long time been deemed "wrong" by many people and societies... but where/who has said anything about it having a lower base level of consciousness (apart from you)?


I've fucked a bloke. I have gay friends.

Not sure if you saw it, but as I wrote before usually the biggest homophobes are homosexuals themselves. ;)

And the God YOU speak of is a faggot. Still.

The "true" Divine Mystery is beyond sexual orientation, body, sexual organs and any "human flesh" related areas - even allegorically. IMO.

:cool:

Awani
11-17-2016, 05:57 AM
If you take a look around, the world is going to the pack (hell) and its only now, when evil is at its greatest, that we see the homosexual perspective reach any level of acceptance. To be considered healthy, in what is a deeply sick society, is no achievement at all.

This is complete bullshit IMO.

1. the world is safer and more peaceful now than it has been in a very long time, don't fall for the "culture of fear"
2. evil is always at its greatest when it is about to loose... just as an animal is most dangerous when cornered

Everything is going according to plan.

And homosexuality has had a very high level of acceptance in many different cultures throughout history, so it really is - yet again - kind of irrelevant to the state of affairs and the evolution of human societies... and even when it was not accepted there were a lot of homosexuality going on let me tell you.

:cool:

elixirmixer
11-17-2016, 06:04 AM
That is because it is irrelevant to any path. I can become enlightened, or I can create the Stone in the lab regardless of what I like to fuck, or what I like to wear... or what my name is or any such things. IRRELEVANT.

Here im referring to the path of alchemical tantra, in which case, it is relevant.


As for "islamists beat women" you are aware that women are beaten by all men in all cultures and beliefs?

This was my point, that calling me a misogynist just because i acknowledge gender roles, is like calling an Islamic, a women beater, just because his wife wears a hijab.


but where/who has said anything about it having a lower base level of consciousness (apart from you)?

Why does someone else have to say it, can't elixirmixer make it into the great proverbs of fame? It might not be a law of physics, but was certainly a widely accepted view, I mean this in regards again to how sexual activity outside the bonds of marriage, was considered of the devil, a kind of "giving-in" of sorts to our lower nature. Homosexuality being here, in the same basket as whordoms, orgies ect..


Not sure if you saw it, but as I said before usually the biggest homophobes are homosexuals themselves.

No i missed that one, but who knows ;) nah, like i said before, I could chose to be Gay if i wanted, I think everyone has the capacity to change what he is attracted too, there is a women who is even sexually in love with the Eiffel tower and was legally married to it. I believe this women, if she had good enough reason, could change her mind. If God came down now and said to get on the dick, i would. My sexual orientation is mainly due to my belief that it is not in the best interest of the spiritual growth of the person, not because of any thoughts of 'yuckyness' that i think may be the driving force of most homophobics. (Although, watching two dudes hook up in public is quite unsettling)

elixirmixer
11-17-2016, 06:10 AM
Some good points Dev, it certainly has been practise behind closed doors since the dawning of the olympics (lol)

I can also agree with the culture of fear statement.

When i enter the cellestial kingdom, if i meet any queers, I will swallow my words (no pun intended)


evil is always at its greatest when it is about to loose... just as an animal is most dangerous when cornered

Everything is going according to plan

I also agree with this statement, and very earnestly hope that you're right.

Awani
11-17-2016, 06:16 AM
This was my point, that calling me a misogynist just because i acknowledge gender roles, is like calling an Islamic, a women beater, just because his wife wears a hijab.

I see. Misunderstood.


Why does someone else have to say it, can't elixirmixer make it into the great proverbs of fame?

Sure you can, but the way you wrote it made it sound like it was based on some common knowledge: "...has always been deemed..." instead of "...I have always deemed..."

:cool:

elixirmixer
11-17-2016, 06:26 AM
I will say this... As much as religion has made quite a fuss in condemning the practise of homosexuality, labelling it as one of the highest sins ect.... When i contemplate the world, and the things I see, there are many many far greater atrocities that we have need of concern. The current Health system and its companionship with big pharma, the difficulty that the poor face in receiving justice.

When I consider these things, in comparison to someones sexual preference, its hard to consider homosexuality the be all and end all of evil within sexuality.

There are no doubt some seriously evil heterosexual things going on that would make your general day-to-day faggot, look like a saint.

I'll be shocked if the bible is wrong, but i'm open to all things until I meet God and am told otherwise.

zoas23
11-17-2016, 06:27 AM
To be able to notice and comprehend the OBVIOUS differences in males and female, and more generalised, masculinity, and femininity, is hardly misogynist prejudice. That's right up the "Islamist's beat women" argument. It could be equally thought that having no appreciation for differences in house hold roles could be considered ignorance (know thy self) not to mention plain old stupidity and a lack of common sense.

Differences in household roles? Which ones would be those differences? That a female has to cook for you because you are the glorious sun? Does she have to wash your underwear too because she's a woman?

Is THIS alchemy?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/41/4f/88/414f88ba8453d1526390fa5838ca9b1c.jpg


It wouldn't be too good if the sun and moon had even amounts of light would it? we would all be dead.

So the males have more light than the females???

Can't go on without some music...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8J9WssSj7Q


And this is my point exactly. If you fall into this gay pop culture and allow it to mess with your views of the world, you are likely to be damned spiritually. If you cannot see the deep correlations between your own masculinity, and that of the suns energy, then how will you ever accept the greater truths. I thought it was just common sense, but when stepping on egg shells around people who may or may not be offended by a more classical way of looking at things, then we fall into a place where the truth is just farts, knowledge is just mass blogging, and where nature is once again, an accident, of no real meaning, all the symbology of nature just being a coincidence, in which case, nothing really matters and i might as well just go suck a dick.

The idea that the males have a "sun energy" and the females have a "moon energy" is... misunderstanding alchemy, misunderstanding astrology, misunderstanding life.

If you can't find your own inner moon, then don't even waste your time with alchemy...


There are spiritual implications for how we choose to express our sexuality. That's a fact. I know a girl who is drop dead gorgeous and has chosen to stay a virgin, shes coming on 19 and i don't think we could have more respect for the girl. I also know girls that have been spreading their legs since well before that age, of which such women seldom receive any respect from our peers, are often used and abused because of such lack in respect, and lead quite miserable lives. And that is an example of how the choices we make sexually, effect our lives, without even referring to homosexuals.

What kind of virtue is involved in being a virgin? It seems that the virtue is simple that your misogynist prejudices lead you to believe that if a woman chooses to have sex with a casual partner, then she's a "slut"... and when a man has casual sex with a woman, he's a true macho.


Just trying to state me as a homophobe is no argument at all. Like i said, I'm not a homophobe.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtjMFh9MJGQ

Which ways or paths for performing the Great Work are not compatible with homosexuality when it comes to alchemy? (Let's talk about labs).

Awani
11-17-2016, 06:34 AM
There are no doubt some seriously evil heterosexual things going on that would make your general day-to-day faggot, look like a saint.

Perhaps I have to blame myself, because I used the word faggot just to make the effect greater when I spoke about God (because it's funny). Also God is still not a person (regardless if you believe we are all part of God or not). However we have human beings in this forum... and "general day-to-day faggot" is directed at humans that might be present in this forum (indirectly or directly).

So yet again, probably my fault for using that word initially... just wanted to point this out because - from my perspective - I am fine with saying "god is a faggot", but not fine with saying "general day-to-day faggot".

Maybe I am being picky and hypocritical, but it needed to be said.


I'll be shocked if the bible is wrong, but i'm open to all things until I meet God and am told otherwise.

There is a "god" IMO, and the Bible has some interesting allegories and at its core some important lessons... but as a whole it is complete garbage written by a council of idiots... ironically the Quran is closer to a sacred text than the Bible... not in content, but in how it was written. And this goes for most holy books. Even the Book of Mormon. The Bible, however, is not only compiled by "politicians", but also not written by the people who had the sacred divine encounters with angels (true or not), but instead by people who knew a guy who knew a guy.

If you want to talk to God you can find God in most places, but in the Bible "it" does not spend much of its time. IMO.

:cool:

hexahedron
11-17-2016, 06:39 AM
I don't think religions themselves really view it as a grievous sin. Just the people who follow them. It is the custom to condem but I'm not so sure it's the word of any god.

elixirmixer
11-17-2016, 07:02 AM
I don't think religions themselves really view it as a grievous sin. Just the people who follow them. It is the custom to condemn but I'm not so sure it's the word of any god.

It is quite heavily scrutinized in the christian text.


Perhaps I have to blame myself

Perhaps religion and homosexuality need to learn to respect one another. Another reason why I'm not too interested in the gay mind state, is because it often seems a one way street, like the feminist movement. Demand respect but couldn't for the life of them give any (not talking about you dev just a general statement, that there is room to grow on both sides of this coin.)

Yeah i agree the Bible has been trashed, I agree with the Quran having seemingly more divine origins and again with the BoM.

My final bid for rational supremacy: "The Lord" was a word translated from the Hebrew YHWH, the 'Y' is the letter 'yod' which means phallus/male. The 'HWH' is hey-vav-hey, which means womb, mother, feminine. Jehovah Elohim's very name means Literally "male/female of the masculine/feminine Gods."

But wait, it gets better... the name of Jesus, in Hebrew can be spelt (while this is disputed) YSHVH Which quite literally means, "Male/Female joined by Fire"

EDIT: I rest my case :cool:

Awani
11-17-2016, 07:11 AM
Jehovah Elohim's very name means Literally "male/female of the masculine/feminine Gods." ...Which quite literally means, "Male/Female joined by Fire"

This is just another way of saying asexual or androgyny... or allegorically a unity of all duality.

The Divine Eternal Energy of Light has no duality... this is God. IMO.

The "devil" is the God spoken about in the Bible. This is is not THE God. It is obvious that this lesser God chose the most homophobic group (the Jews) as his chosen people... to inspire the two other homophobic groups that came/grew out of the Hebrew religion (in a way) Islam and Christianity/Catholicism. LOL.

:cool:

elixirmixer
11-17-2016, 07:31 AM
This is just another way of saying asexual or androgyny... or allegorically a unity of all duality.

The Divine Eternal Energy of Light has no duality... this is God. IMO.

Yep. I believe 'The gods' are androgynous. And that Godhood, requires the union.

I believe this is the goal of sexual alchemy, and a different ritual, but of similar symbology, is performed inside the Mormon temples (The Mormons have two weddings, a celebrant marriage 'till death do we part' and a temple seal for 'time and all eternity'

While the Mormons do not realise the underlying spiritual principals of this ordinance, (Or really any of their ordinances for that matter ((Mormons are not usually very bright)) ) It is deeply imbedded in the religion to basically join with a woman in order to enter the bridal chamber of Christ and become adopted into the Elohim family.

This is the core reason for my seemingly homophobic attitude, because those who practise that form of sexuality cannot 'enter the bridal chamber' as it were...

Awani
11-17-2016, 07:44 AM
IMO the goal of sexual alchemy, and of entering the bridal chamber of Christ, has noting at all to do with heterosexual sex. Rather it is physically about a sort of high kundalini-styled orgasm and/or spiritually about "unconditional love". And anyone in the know knows that for men the only (usually) way to achieve a female orgasm (which are "greater") is to stimulate areas that are in the rectum. ;)

:cool:

elixirmixer
11-17-2016, 08:06 AM
I did share a technique on this forum for how to reach such levels of orgasm.

IMO, having been stimulated like that, and reached orgasm, i would disagree... I believe that rectum induced orgasm, while feeling different, does not in any way compare to what an orgasm feels like when one has filled his entire body with sexual vigor. (

I agree and disagree with your understanding of the tantra process. Yes one can reach great highs of 'nirvana' through the kundalini experience, perhaps immortality. IMO, when this state is simultaneously reached by two conjoining people... we'll i'm not lucky enough to know, but i'm pretty sure that this is the main goal of basically.... life. Obviously very few make it to this end, which is why I said that the homosexual debate might not be worth the breath, since so few heterosexuals would ever reach this high level of both self mastery, and courtship anyway!!

I am speaking strictly theoretical, for the sake of good art. Just to be again, clear, not personally knocking any gay people.

And so you can see my reasoning, that it is this heightened courtship which is the highest of joys, the highest of attainments. There is nothing better for a man or women, than to be joined WHOLLY into MATRIMONY.

IM(epic)O

Awani
11-17-2016, 01:36 PM
I do not think marriage has any value other than legal/tax value, which is why I married my wife. But if there was no legal advantage to it we would not have done it. We don't even have rings.

Love and unity is far greater than traditional dogma or rituals created by the paternal elite.

:cool:

ArcherSage
11-17-2016, 01:36 PM
The book of mormon is completely a rip off of masonic ritual, as Joseph Smith, his brother and his father were all Masons. And 2 of the "witnesses" of his revelation had the name Hiram , the most important figure in masonic lore. Also his divine revelation is completely taken from the royal arch degree where Enoch discovers Gods true name on a golden triangle that he then buries underground and Solomon finds years later and builds his temple on top of it. It is obvious Joseph smith tried to personify many of the masonic legends and intertwined masonry into his own religion..Oh and he took the "secret" masonic handshakes as well, they use the exact same ones and have no idea what it comes from.

Andro
11-17-2016, 01:46 PM
If Mormonism is indeed a rip-off from Freemasonry, I wonder if Masons share the same convictions as the Mormons when it comes to sexual orientation & gender identity (which is the topic of this thread).


The book of mormon is completely a rip off of masonic ritual, as Joseph Smith, his brother and his father were all Masons. And 2 of the "witnesses" of his revelation had the name Hiram , the most important figure in masonic lore. Also his divine revelation is completely taken from the royal arch degree where Enoch discovers Gods true name on a golden triangle that he then buries underground and Solomon finds years later and builds his temple on top of it. It is obvious Joseph smith tried to personify many of the masonic legends and intertwined masonry into his own religion..Oh and he took the "secret" masonic handshakes as well, they use the exact same ones and have no idea what it comes from.

elixirmixer
11-17-2016, 09:58 PM
@ ArcherSage: I would like to rebutle that comment but it is not the topic of this conversation. But quickly consider the fact, that the masons didn't make up the hand shakes either. They have existed for millennia.

@ Andro: I'm not sure what the masonic view is, but it would be very interesting to find out. Ill be back tonight with some info if i can find it.

zoas23
11-17-2016, 10:19 PM
@ ArcherSage: I would like to rebutle that comment but it is not the topic of this conversation. But quickly consider the fact, that the masons didn't make up the hand shakes either. They have existed for millennia.

@ Andro: I'm not sure what the masonic view is, but it would be very interesting to find out. Ill be back tonight with some info if i can find it.

Freemasonry is NOT homophobic at all in its ideals, but some lodges develop homophobic tendencies and manage to expel the gays (same thing happens with racism, Freemasonry is not racist, but some lodges develop racist tendencies and they systematically reject any non-white person).

There is nothing homophobic or racist in the "theory" of Freemasonry, not even a single line... but in the "practice", SOME lodges develop these tendencies (and other lodges don't).

hexahedron
11-18-2016, 08:12 AM
Recognizing that we are also alchemical beings composed of elements is really important I think.
Although we do have a physical gender, we also have an emotional gender, and sexuality.
I think those are energies in and of themselves. Although elements do have genders as well in a sense, it doesn't make sense to say that males are all fire and air and females are all water and earth.
If we are too confident in our own opinions we will miss out on the truth that is right in front of our face.
For those of you questioning everyone else's sexuality, their motivation for having a given sexuality or reason for being, or even the consequence of being hetero, homo or bisexual; I believe you should ask yourself why you are so compelled to "correct" other people's behaviour rather than study and understand the truths of the world around you.
Followers of many organized religions have rejected the things they have seen in the world around them because it does not line up with their belief system.
Following a belief system without learning and growing in some way is nothing noteworthy.
The idea of a community such as this one is to grow our understanding, not criticize other people's disciplines.
It is not possible to occupy all religious, spiritual or mental points of view, without understanding each one in turn and having faith in others. If you have never been a woman, you can not understand what being a woman means. So instead of formulating some biased idea of what that means, we should ask and learn from each other.
Same thing with homosexuals.
elixirmixer, you are here to learn what it means to be homosexual, transgendered, bisexual, gender queer, inter-sex, female.... all the things you are not... and you are here to teach what it means to be heterosexual and a man... but remember, you can only teach those interested in learning, and only after you have shown interest in learning yourself... for any of us... if we walk in talking like we own the show... in any profession... we lose the respect of the people around us... i seriously doubt that any one of us has all, if not many, or even any of the answers... the reason we discuss things is to find the truth...

some things in nature are homosexual... and although the homosexual things do not reproduce often.... they do get reproduced by the heterosexual things... understanding a homosexual phenomenon in nature is important in understanding the world around us... to reject those things is to miss a piece of the picture.

hexahedron
11-18-2016, 08:20 AM
Also!!!
"Faggot" originates from the meaning "bundle of sticks" because in the times when this term was coined, heretics, witches, alchemists, and homosexuals were burned at the stake... it's kind of a death threat in a way, calling someone a faggot... it's like "I'm going to burn you at the stake" or "Once I tell the villagers what you've been doing, they'll burn you at the stake for sure".... technically everyone here could be called a faggot for practicing alchemy alone :)

hexahedron
11-18-2016, 08:25 AM
One more thought:
If god/gods are androgynous then wouldn't that mean that being closer to androgyny as an individual would make you closer to god? Like exploring your feminine side or understanding the whole scale of sexuality. Learning to understand both male and female energies or aspects would be a better path to "righteousness" and "holiness" than becoming staunch and steadfast in your masculinity/femininity and personal sexuality.
I suppose I think god has no gender as god wouldn't have much use for gender. Assuming god is a thing.

Awani
11-18-2016, 10:42 AM
Like exploring your feminine side or understanding the whole scale of sexuality. Learning to understand both male and female energies or aspects would be a better path to "righteousness" and "holiness" than becoming staunch and steadfast in your masculinity/femininity and personal sexuality.

YES. Exactly. :)

:cool:

elixirmixer
11-19-2016, 01:47 AM
Yes I haven't touched on the ideas of inner elements and would be the first to agree that all men need to come to grips with their feminine side, and i strongly believe, that those who cannot, do start to display signs of damnation in there growth (damnation simply mean, being blocked). But what does this have to do with butt sex? I can't cry, as a man, being over joyed at the birth of a child or overcome by the death of a loved one, without having the urge to go root other men? Inner femininity has little to do with homosexuality.

But also, I will remind all, that I couldn't care less if someone was gay or not, but I tried to highlight many times, that my argument, was for the sake of spiritual theory on human evolution. I still haven't heard even one argument to suggest that homosexuality in some way betters those people who partake of it.

All I've really seen here is people having a hard time accepting that I do not encourage homosexuality, due simply because it has not proved to develop anyone, in some kind of positive, divine macro/micro cosmic relationship or towards evolution.

The fact that the best argument that homosexuality has is "leave them alone you big meanie" and "people should be able to do what they want" and "don't judge others blah blah blah"... All these claims are things I would associate with standing up for the 'down and out'. Like a heroine junkie, or a homeless prostitute.

Mormonism does not shun the gays, they would direct them to an addiction recovery program.

I'm not going to change my views just for the sake of political correctness. I'm not going to accept the title of misogynist, just because I don't run with the statis quo.
I'm not going to alter my viewpoint without significant evidence to suggest that I am wrong. I do not believe that choosing to accept others is any sign of growth or achievement, its far easier to just let people do whatever they like, than to hold your integrity in the things that you believe, and i might add, that most christian sects have fallen into this trap, changing the word of God by suddenly 'allowing' this kind of behaviour in their faith, while the Mormons have not sold out their veiw point and I am quite certain never ever will. And that is not because they hate gay people, it is because they wish, just as I do, and no doubt many of you do, that people should reach their uttermost spiritual potential, of which I believe homosexuality is a preventing force, has shown to be a preventative force, and has never in any form that I have seen proven to do the opposite.

Treating our sexuality as sacred, is one of the things that separates us from the other animals, it is one of the forces that connects us to the divine. It was said in many of the christian text, Book of Mormon, Old test. New test. ect... that virginity was highly praised of The Lord. That sexual purity was a great blessing in His eyes.

To consider yourself 'spiritual' but not take heed of the words of YHWH IMO is just non-sense, those who return to heaven are those who acknowledge God. If you've spoken to angels, or have the ability to do so, ask them... they will tell you that this is indeed the way of the universe. Submission to the divine.

Again, a homosexual may be quite gifted in many other forms of 'good behaviour' and could perhaps "override" the negative effects of his/her own sexuality and still reach great heights, but I think that the higher this person got, the more they would realise that their sexuality is a hindrance and they would seek to "BE RECTIFIED".

I thinks its pathetic that everyone has adopted a "let everyone do what they want" type view of the world. Look what the politicians have done now that we have left them to their own devices for a few hundred years, they've gone out of fucking control!

No... no,no,no... there is no proof, no good argument, that I have heard yet, to suggest that homosexuality is a positive force. It simply, is not.

Kiorionis
11-19-2016, 01:52 AM
I still haven't heard even one argument to suggest that homosexuality in some way betters those people who partake of it.

Here's mine:

"They" have had an experience in this life that "you" have never had.

If "spiritual advancement" is all about opening the mind through experience, then those with the most experiences win, hands down ;)

Edit:

On a side note, I think the higher and higher a person goes, the less weight labels and social constructs have. If you open the mind enough, everything makes perfect and absolute sense.

elixirmixer
11-19-2016, 01:56 AM
I fucked a guy, he had stunning blonde hair, dressed as a girl, and had an epic goatee.

After I fucked him, he turned straight.

After I fucked him, i felt a deep level of shame, like i had made a mistake, that i had 'lessened' my own integrity.

It was an experience I could have done without, altho, it does allow me to share my opinion, since it obviously is something I have experienced.

Open to being proven wrong, but still waiting for that I'm afraid.

EDIT: How many of you are gay anyway? Are you standing up for something that you don't even really understand?? Have you even had feeling of attraction to men and wondered where these may have originated from? Have you, at all, actually analizyed this behaviour, or are you just on the, human rights banned wagon, without really considering how little such an attitude actually does to change and grow our world, most often, it just ending in further conflict and contention between, say, Christians and homosexuals, just as an example (which is a great example considering you can walk down rundle mall in Adelaide at night time and see a big group of Christians and a big group of homosexuals, battling it out, at least once a week.)

EDIT 2: And yes, he literally turned straight, and I believe it had something to do with sharing my experience, of how I was not uplifted, but rather dragged down. This friend of ours no longer dresses up as women or sleeps with men, but is a recovering homosexual, of which he made those changes under his own volition, for the sake of his self betterment.

So again, experience tells me, that there are levels of sexuality, not to suggest that my own level of sexual mastery is very high, but i could be in worse places, I could be wearing a dress while shaving my goatee....

Kiorionis
11-19-2016, 02:07 AM
Have you even had feeling of attraction to men and wondered where these may have originated from?

In my own words, they originate from an absolute wonderment and awe and infatuation with the totality of the person in question. What else is love?

elixirmixer
11-19-2016, 02:56 AM
Again' lets be careful here to be accurate and intelligent in the way we define the mechanism of said feelings Kior.

For instance, can I not have a compete and utter respect and love, for another man, honouring and loving what he is, in a brotherly like fashion? Does pure love automatically imply sexual realisation?

The other side of the coin being obviously, that there are homosexuals that have sexual lust for other same gender people, without having any innate respect of love for that person.

Homosexuality being clearly define by oxford as: Sexually attracted to people of one's own sex. Sexual orientation being the topic of the thread.

The lust response in human beings, is the 'prima materia' if you will, of sexuality. It can be transformed into a great variety of expressions as the yogo and tantra practises are highly specialised to teach. It is this lust response, towards other individuals of the same sex that defines the type of sexuality one expresses. My point then, is that this sexuality, being quite powerful, and like fire, which can burn and destroy, should be carefully nurtured, using the instructions of the ancients which are available to us, to invoke human evolution, of which I believe homosexually is a NATURAL BARRIER, such as other forms of lust response such as smoking, drinking, masturbating, over-eating, over spending on vain things, ect...

Love is different, and having love for people of the same gender is a great gateway towards human evolution, it does not require the act of physical stimulation or copulation. It is not the matter at hand.

Kiorionis
11-19-2016, 03:16 AM
Again' lets be careful here to be accurate and intelligent in the way we define the mechanism of said feelings Kior.

I am being very accurate in my definitions, and approaching this quite intelligently (in my mind).


For instance, can I not have a compete and utter respect and love, for another man, honouring and loving what he is, in a brotherly like fashion?

You can easily do this. :)

But, can you enter a state of absolute wonderment and awe and infatuation with the totality of the person in question? (In this instance, a person of similar gender /orientation/diversiry).

I suppose the question at the back of my mind is: what generates the "lust response"?


In my opinion, this is the root of orientation.

elixirmixer
11-19-2016, 03:50 AM
I believe it is a deep facuilty of desire, called the heart, of which, we have the free will to chose that which we desire. So i don't buy the whole 'I was born this way' crap. I think that is BS and that its an ego response that really means 'I don't want to change'


But, can you enter a state of absolute wonderment and awe and infatuation with the totality of the person in question? (In this instance, a person of similar gender /orientation/diversiry).

Yes, I just chose not to, because its stupid, for the reasons I've already said. A backsliding of our true spiritual identities, of which the highest of all masters have removed ALL lusting altogether as a factor, knowing quite well that it was a hindrance and kept them confined in physical prisons.

elixirmixer
11-19-2016, 03:53 AM
I believe I have made all the points I wish to make concerning this topic, and because I wish to continue to speak with people on an equal level, on other (more important) topics, I will end my involvement now in this thread and let others talk amongst themselves.

Gay's not the way :p

zoas23
11-19-2016, 04:30 AM
EDIT: How many of you are gay anyway? Are you standing up for something that you don't even really understand?? Have you even had feeling of attraction to men and wondered where these may have originated from? Have you, at all, actually analizyed this behaviour, or are you just on the, human rights banned wagon, without really considering how little such an attitude actually does to change and grow our world, most often, it just ending in further conflict and contention between, say, Christians and homosexuals, just as an example (which is a great example considering you can walk down rundle mall in Adelaide at night time and see a big group of Christians and a big group of homosexuals, battling it out, at least once a week.)

I'm not gay... and to be honest, I am unable to tell which males are "handsome" and which ones aren't. I often felt curious about it, not about liking a man, but about what makes a man "handsome" and what makes a man "ugly" (strictly talking about his physical aspect). I simply get it in extreme cases, like saying that Brad Pitt is more handsome than Woody Allen (in a physical way). So I often ask persons who are attracted to men about it showing two persons (i.e, in a movie) and asking which one of the two of them is "more handsome" and I am surprised by the answers. I am surprised that in most cases there's no debate, but that all the persons I ask quickly give me the same answer and tell me which one is the "nice one" and which one is the "ugly one"... and my surprise is simply that I don't get it, that I don't understand the parameters they are using. Completely blind to male beauty or unable to understand it.

Other than that, I have a fascination for gay culture/art... I created a thread about it and I have the intention of post more in it as time goes by. I see a lot of worth there... a huge world that remained quite "underground", but that offers something VERY interesting and even enlightening to contemplate, even for a completely heterosexual person.

As for the other question, I don't care about political correctness, a lot of my friends are gays, lesbians and transgenders... AND I had to live violent situations due to idiots who attacked them. A person in this forum once thanked me for my support of LGTTB rights when I am not gay myself. I had to explain that I'm not doing a "favor to others"... that homophobia (and that's the word, I am sorry if you don't like it) is a problem that affects ME personally. Because of the same reasons I like feminism: I have a girlfriend, I love her and I don't like it at all when I see my "other half" being attacked... but this idea of "other half" is extended in a different way to my friends, they are also a part of me. I do not need to be gat to be absolutely outraged by homophobic attitudes. In the same way that if a female friend of mine is raped my attitude is not "OK... that's your problem... I'm not you, I'm not even a woman, why should I care?". It is also MY problem. I do not happen to live in a hermetic vessel.

As for the example of Christians and homosexuals.... WOW.
It's very much like saying that the existence of black persons pisses off the KKK...
And my solution for this second problem is not thinking "Oh! If we exterminate all the black persons, then we'll have a better world because the KKK won't be upset and they will be happier!!!".

"Those who have suffered, understand suffering,
and thereby extend their hand
the storm that brings harm
also makes fertile
blessed is the grass
and herb and the true thorn and light".

Political correctness????? No, homophobia is a problem for ME, I am not defending somebody else.
That group of "Christians" who are out there once a week molesting some gays just because they happen to exist are the same idiots who murdered Socrates, they are the same idiots who burnt downs the Library of Alexandria, they are the same idiots who murdered the Cathars, they are the same idiots who castrated Abelard, They are the same idiots who gave Dante a death sentence, they are the same idiots who exterminated the american aborigines for their greed for building churches made of gold, they are the same idiots who burnt Giordano Bruno at the stake... and I have a problem with those idiots. I have a BIG BIG problem with those idiots actually. They are a problem for ME. I would send them to an idiocy recovery program if there was one...

elixirmixer
11-19-2016, 05:09 AM
I'm not spreading gay hate speech here zoas23, if i was i would be talking a lot more about how this homo-rights-craze has developed the loudest collective group of self-righteous hypocrites this side of the 21st century, always talking about how we should all accept each other, and then judging and hating anything that may oppose them. ALWAYS. Never seen a whole bunch of intellectual maturity come from this lines of thinking.

As we can see here, i said numerous times that i don't hate any one or anything they do, and yet i'm the misogynistic gullible mormon, while you zoas23 have refereed to how you hate this type of people for this, and that type of people for that, that YOU have a BIG BIG problem with these people because apparently the guys preaching Christ in Adelaide were somehow involved with the Burning of some Alexandria monuments or something silly like that.

I do see where your coming from, if my girlfriend could kick the shit out of me with 10 years of kungfu experience, I might have different views about my masculinity aswell, but I don't think that hating millions of people, because of a religion they practised, just because their leadership took advantage of them and abused their power, and people in the process, is going to help you find a more balanced approach to look at yourself, sexuality, and human rights.

Your defending something, of while you seem to only have marginal interest in yourself, confessing that you dont really understand the process of homosexual attraction, yet getting so passionate about it that you started yelling at people who have been dead for millenia... and this, my friend, is the trap of the homosexual mind, irrational, impractical, ignorant of the truth, and blinding to the mind, to lead one down into pride, denial and other 'lower consciousness' states.

I wouldn't have been so mean, but you started doing exactly what you said you hate, judging others, and persecuting them, which I have not done at any time during this thread. Only had a rational analysis of the path of homosexuality and its orientation.

Axismundi000
11-19-2016, 11:26 AM
Just noticed all this stuff.

From the perspective of the late Sigmund Freud all this talking about homosexuality by people who say they are not homosexual could indicate unconscious homosexual urges. Are some of the posters here 'on the turn?'. Just a thought.

As a great fan of Sigmund Freud's theories I mention this as merely a possibility and I will not be getting into involved arguements here. Just a constructive observation which I hope helps people to progress (Tenet Noscere).

Awani
11-19-2016, 12:51 PM
How many of you are gay anyway? Are you standing up for something that you don't even really understand?? Have you even had feeling of attraction to men and wondered where these may have originated from? Have you, at all, actually analizyed this behaviour, or are you just on the, human rights banned wagon, without really considering how little such an attitude actually does to change and grow our world, most often, it just ending in further conflict and contention between, say, Christians and homosexuals, just as an example...

First of all my faith is that all humans are bisexual, some more than others... if they have accepted it or not... at the core, in their hearts... we are all bi. IMO.

Any attraction to anyone comes from acknowledgement of beauty or of seeing a soul mate. Love is blind, I'm sure you know. And actually when I love someone, truly love them... on a soul mate level... I want to fuck that person. What's strange about that?

I am certainly not standing up for something I don't understand, because I fully comprehend bully mentality. And when it comes to homophobia and racism that is all it is.

ANYONE that says that a person can't do, feel or like something is FASCISM of sorts. Doesn't really matter what it is. This is principle. The only conflict, as you say, in all this are those fundamentalist Christians. 99.99 % of homosexuals do not have any sort of urge to do anything to entice conflict. No more than someone who likes to eat ice cream. They just want those fundamentalist Christians to leave them the fuck alone.

Just because you have had gay sex and think the way you think doesn't mean homosexuality is invalid on the whole. It only means it is so for you. It would be the same as me saying: I once knew a guy from Australia and he was queer... so you must be too. Don't confuse personal direct experience with the direct experience of other people.

From what I understand you are trying to say that homosexuality might not be good if you try to be at one with the divine. And I can't say you are wrong or right. But what I think, based on my own experience with the divine, is that you are very wrong in thinking that... and by the time you find out it is too late. ;)


From the perspective of the late Sigmund Freud all this talking about homosexuality by people who say they are not homosexual could indicate unconscious homosexual urges.

Probably. And? :)


...and this, my friend, is the trap of the homosexual mind, irrational, impractical, ignorant of the truth, and blinding to the mind, to lead one down into pride, denial and other 'lower consciousness' states.

This is the most silly statement I have read in a long time. I pity the fool who actually thinks there is something of value in this collection of words... and that you managed to form this sentence based on what zoas23 wrote informs me that there is no point in discussing this subject with you any further.

It does however perfectly describe most voters in the United States (regardless if they voted Hillary or Trump). LOL.

...and this, my friend, is the trap of the mind of the US voter, irrational, impractical, ignorant of the truth, and blinding to the mind, to lead one down into pride, denial and other 'lower consciousness' states.

:cool:

Andro
11-19-2016, 04:09 PM
1. Personally, I find Freud's outlook ranging between severely limited and deeply flawed, but I won't go into that here.

2. From personal experience and acquaintances, I have never met a person who is truly secure in his/her sexuality and also simultaneously homophobic (unless they only 'act' in a homophobic manner due to upbringing/conditioning/peer pressure). In other words, people who are truly secure and confident with their sexuality and relationships (as well as free from indoctrination), are highly unlikely to display homophobic behavior. However, the biggest homophobes are most likely the ones who are NOT secure with their own sexuality and life in general, those who possibly even had enjoyable non-hetero experiences which they feel ashamed about (gender/orientation conditioning) and thus attempt to compensate/rationalize their own attraction in order to subdue the guilt they feel because of peer pressure and (mostly religious) indoctrination.

Because I know (on a more than superficial level) some of the people who spoke here against bullying, racism & homophobia, I can say that they seem (to me) to be quite secure and confident with their sexuality and relationships, secure and confident enough so as not to fall into the self-loathing guilt/peer-pressure/indoctrination traps that a lot of closet-case homophobes often fall into.

I am also excluding people who aren't really racists/homophobes, but act as such for political reasons (to gain power/popularity with the indoctrinated masses, etc...). To use two more 'extreme' examples for this, Putin has a few gay ministers in his government and Hitler had close friends who were Jewish.

So no, I don't think that the few hetero-living guys who spoke on this thread against bullying, racism and homophobia are anywhere near being 'on the turn'. They're just secure and confident enough in THEIR lives, so they have no need whatsoever to portray anything/anyone as 'lesser' because of inner insecurity and psychological compensation/denial mechanisms.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." :cool:
_______
I.M.S.O.


From the perspective of the late Sigmund Freud all this talking about homosexuality by people who say they are not homosexual could indicate unconscious homosexual urges. Are some of the posters here 'on the turn?'. Just a thought.

As a great fan of Sigmund Freud's theories I mention this as merely a possibility and I will not be getting into involved arguments here. Just a constructive observation which I hope helps people to progress (Tenet Noscere).

Seth-Ra
11-19-2016, 05:34 PM
I do see where your coming from, if my girlfriend could kick the shit out of me with 10 years of kungfu experience, I might have different views about my masculinity aswell...

^That was funny to me. :D






...and this, my friend, is the trap of the mind of the US voter, irrational, impractical, ignorant of the truth, and blinding to the mind, to lead one down into pride, denial and other 'lower consciousness' states.
:cool:

As was that. XD (hence why I didn't vote. Silly humans.)


As for the subject matter, I think I've stated this before, but since I'm commenting I might as well again.
I both agree and disagree with Dev's notion that everyone is Bi.
I agree that it can be the case to differing levels, but I also disagree because I don't see/experience such. (Know to many that are "fixed" one way or the other, no wiggle room. I leave the possibility they could develop such, but it's purely theoretical.)

Personally, I think it's an "abnormality"/"defect" somewhere. (Brain chemistry, spiritual harmonics, whatever.)
That doesn't mean I think they are any different from anyone else. Everyone possesses "abnormalities"/"defects". It's not a "bad" thing... It's just a thing. I make no bones about the fact I'm a bit cracked in the head compared to "normal" people - I'm intense, kinda feral, magickal... I live in the Bible-belt of the US, they wanna burn my ass at the stake most days. Lol
I think it's wrong to attack or degrade people for being themselves. I'm a heterosexual male, engaged to a beautiful, magickal, fiancé. I am also a pretty male (I think so anyway. :cool: ) and get asked sometimes if I'm a guy or a girl (guys having long hair is an oddity here, and some make fun of me for it, respectfully), I'm also quite thin (though have gained some weight lately) and bro, I don't even lift (aside from patients).
My girlish-elf-like facade doesn't make me any less masculine since I'll happily slice and dice my enemies, drinking their blood from their skulls like chalices. :cool:
(Again, kinda feral...)
Of course, myself and my other straight guy friends often crack all sorts of gay innuendos at one another, which probably adds to other people's confusion. XD
Point is - we are people, all manner of expressions and shades of grey (more than 50...).
So why hate or attack one who is a different shade? Silliness.

When it comes to the Art and trying transmute and raise one's self, I find that it is important to balance all the energies; male and female, positive and negative etc etc.
both in one's self, and in the joining of a couple.
Whether I think it a "defect" or not, doesn't mean it can't be harnessed and worked by those who have it/are it.
I really enjoy the analogy of the Japanese art of kintsugi; where cracks or breaks in an object are repaired with gold. The "defect" becomes a beautiful piece of it, telling of its story and its history. It's not less for it, but more for surviving it/experiencing it, overcoming it. I find that true for everyone, if they simply own and work on their defects. (That doesn't mean repress, or "change" or whatever - it's not about conformity or persecuting, it's about understanding and making something nice out of a situation, any and all situations, cause they all are as bad or good as you want them to be.)

People are people. Let them be, and understand them. Love them. Be there for them. Stand with them and show them the strength of friends, and help one another to make everyone "golden".

It's like the "wounded healer" archetype; we need cracks and blemishes to let the Light in. We need adversity and diversity to show the Light and to learn from one another. It's an awesome dance of Life. (Unless someone hurts one of my friends - then it's an awesome dance of death. ;) )

Also understand I use the term "defect" because I can't think of another, and I do not mean it in any kind of derogatory manner because we all have them. (Including the self righteous hypocrites that wanna persecute the gays while eating bacon and shellfish and breaking about 100 other biblical commandments...) Nor am I saying "the gays need to be cured from their affliction" - I'm saying they need to do what we all need to; get a handle on their energies, and make the best/most golden self they can be. No doubt for many that is to harness their energy and feelings and make beautiful art with it, and find a partner to reciprocate and add more value to their lives. (Like most people)

There is no "us" and "them" - it's all just us. None are better, none are lesser, except by their actions.
(Those who bring destruction/hate/phobia/aggression etc are lesser because they are but solvents to be neutralized, forces for breaking down that will invetiably be broke down themselves, and ultimately serve as a growth factor for the overcomes. They can be useful to that end, but they aren't the final product.)


*shrugs* That's my take on it. :)



~Seth-Ra/Jessie

zoas23
11-19-2016, 06:11 PM
I do see where your coming from, if my girlfriend could kick the shit out of me with 10 years of kungfu experience, I might have different views about my masculinity aswell, .

She can kick the shit out of you too... what's the big deal about it??? (She was the National Champion of Kung Fu not so long ago and even defeated the Olympic Golden Medal champion very easily). She used to train against 3 very advanced black belt men fighting with the 3 of them at once and always won these 3 vs 1 fights.
So yeah, if there was a fight, my GF could actually kill you and I if we decided to fight against her as a team... if such thing makes you feel less masculine, then investigate why you feel that you need to feel that you can knock out a woman as to feel masculine.

In my own case, I am proud of her skills in that sense (though I am not personally interested in practicing martial arts myself). Though I have to say that it's beautiful to see her doing her Kung Fu practices, she doesn't have a violent nature at all... and what she does looks like the most beautiful dance, with slow movements that seem to defeat the laws of physics. It's like watching a ballerina. Pure beauty.

So.... you would not date a woman who is an expert in a martial art because such thing would make you feel less masculine??? Do you need to feel that you could potentially knock out your partner during a fight as to be secure of your masculinity???

Seth-Ra
11-19-2016, 06:22 PM
She can kick the shit out of you too... what's the big deal about it??? (She was the National Champion of Kung Fu not so long ago and even defeated the Olympic Golden Medal champion very easily). She used to train against 3 very advanced black belt men fighting with the 3 of them at once and always won these 3 vs 1 fights.
So yeah, if there was a fight, my GF could actually kill you and I if we decided to fight against her as a team... if such thing makes you feel less masculine, then investigate why you feel that you need to feel that you can knock out a woman as to feel masculine.

In my own case, I am proud of her skills in that sense (though I am not personally interested in practicing martial arts myself). Though I have to say that it's beautiful to see her doing her Kung Fu practices, she doesn't have a violent nature at all... and what she does looks like the most beautiful dance, with slow movements that seem to defeat the laws of physics. It's like watching a ballerina. Pure beauty.

So.... you would not date a woman who is an expert in a martial art because such thing would make you feel less masculine??? Do you need to feel that you could potentially knock out your partner during a fight as to be secure of your masculinity???

I know this is somewhat off topic, but damn Zoas23, she sounds awesome! :D
I would totally wanna spar with her. (And even though she probably could kick my ass, it would be awesome/fun to try.)

You're also right about it being a thing of beauty when a beauty (anyone with the grace and control) has attained a mastery of the kata.

I can't answer for Elixiermixer, but I don't see why anyone wouldn't date a girl just cause she could beat them in a fight. I've yet to spar with one that could beat me (but I don't frequent the dojos much), however I do teach my girl, and when the day comes she can knock my helmet off, I'll be quite proud, and forced to step my game up. (Same thing I do with all my martial art friends, sharpening one another.) :cool:

Major props to her for attaining such mastery of kung fu. If y'all are ever in my area, bring some sparring gear, dinner and drinks will be on me. ;)



~Seth-Ra

Awani
11-19-2016, 08:08 PM
Or if we flip it around... Ronda Rousey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronda_Rousey) doesn't seem to loose her femininity (at least not when it comes to mainstream femininity)...

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/ronda-rousey-topless-photos-buffalo-07_zpseqvokwja.jpg

And she can still beat us bloody I'm sure.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BqmUONEoHPk/U7qL75wxSNI/AAAAAAAAG2M/oL7eW6hWJM0/s1600/UFC175-RondaRouseyXAlexisDavis-2-400-sg.gif

:cool:

hexahedron
11-19-2016, 08:51 PM
I think if you are "not homosexual" (meaning you don't identify as homosexual) and have no interest in homosexual people.... and talk about having "conversations on equal footing about more important topics" and think that "gay's not the way" and that gay people are lesser, defunct in the brain, spiritually unaligned, misguided, or whatever else your personal opinion is, you should indeed go somewhere else to talk about things that are more interesting to you, so that people who are interested in diversity in sexuality in alchemy can enjoy conversations about diversity in sexuality in alchemy....

all should be welcome to talk about this topic for sure! But if you are of a personal opinion that this group of people don't belong or are lesser people, then this is not the place for you... you are distracting from the great work that these gay friendly people can do, and it is quite destructive to the emotional, spiritual, and psychological well-being of these people here, who are trying to have a good time...

I'm sure there is a site like www.beinggayiswrong.com that you can go post with like-minded people to teach the world that being gay is wrong. Have a blast! :D

Having sex with a man dressed as a woman doesn't make you the authority on same-sex or transgender experiences of anyone but yourself.
Any shame that you might have felt or whatever is a reflection of your own experience... gay, cross-dressing sex is just not for you my friend... the experience sounds like it stems from a confusion in your own life and maybe a lack of direction.

You must know yourself.... best words of wisdom from a shaman I ever was given... I was going to take some peruvian torch cactus and I asked for advice... and his only response was "know yourself"...

Life is complicated enough without having to (unintentionally and unwillingly) play psychologist/psychiatrist/counsellor/spiritual guide for someone else. Be your own guide. Figure out your own issues. Don't project your issues onto someone(s) else in an effort to feel better about your own actions and perceived mistakes.

None of us is shaming you for exploring your homosexual side. Good for you! You tried it out and it wasn't for you. Unfortunately none of us are you.... You are your own guardian... no-one else can know your feelings and no-one else should be responsible for protecting your soul or spirit...

It seems like @elixirmixer you have put yourself in some unfavorable situations and are not happy with the results. You should really work through those issues and come to peace with them. They are obviously still eating you up inside and it is coming out as condescension and hate.

It sure is possible to have a loving relationship with another man, but in western society, it is really difficult to express these feelings and keep them non-sexual. Men don't like to touch each other... the closest they would usually get is horse-play or wrestling... maybe punching each other in the face...

There are some gentler men out there, of whom I have met a large number. They love to be physically affectionate, but it's really just an expression of fraternity/brotherly love. A good indicator to find this kind of love that you are looking for is in men who are in straight couples who like hugging hello and goodbye.

If you are adverse to men who hug then you are holding onto a hypocritical double-standard. You want brotherly love, but ou think that anyone who gives it is gay.

Sometimes men in straight couples are bisexual, but often they just really yearn for brotherly love like the kind that they were allowed to express as children, before societal norms and standards were imposed on them and they had to man-up and toughen-up and not cry and not love.

I hope that was somewhat helpful. What you are looking for is out there, you just need to hone your tools to find it. There are a lot of resources out there to help gay men or men who have had gay experiences. The trick is probably to read the information from a secure straight person perspective... don't take it as if the pamphlet is calling you gay because it's talking about gay things. right?

But yeah... as far as I understand this particular thread of the forum is not intended to tell gay/homosexual/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered people that they are wrong and doing-it-wrong, but rather a place for collaborators to discuss where in alchemy homosexuality appears in a useful and positive sense, and to develop our own methodologies to create something great.

hexahedron
11-19-2016, 09:18 PM
So on that note...

How do people think that homosexuality can fit into alchemy.

I was thinking that it is an interesting difference for astrology, because the polarity of the relationship would change. Like a female earth sign with a male earth sign should be "balanced" so how I was thinking about it is something like -- with +- so it's an overall -2... if you were to put two earth signed men in a relationship you would get something like +- and +-, so overall it would be 0...

I haven't drawn up a whole "compatibility" chart for straight and gay couples, and in a lot of ways I think this is too simplistic, but I thought it was an interesting thought experiment. I'm not sure how useful it would be either.

Does anyone else have any ideas how a homosexual/bisexual lens could be a useful tool for discovery?

Awani
11-19-2016, 10:53 PM
Does anyone else have any ideas how a homosexual lens could be a useful tool for discovery?

Does anyone else have any ideas how a bisexual lens could be a useful tool for discovery?

Well that is why I think it is healthy to view yourself as bisexual even if you never in your life ever feel or do anything of the sort... because the right circumstances might not have presented itself to you... but to hold that view "frees" you from any conventional dogma and I think such a state of mind is very healthy. It will also make it easier to understand the "other gender" a bit better if you view yourself as bi because then you don't fall into the trap of the gender you belong to. IMO.

Also I think in a sense it might be easier for straight people to adopt this idea than homosexual people, mainly because the homosexual people had to struggle so much to be able to BE homosexual (due to the shame and bully mentality of society)... so to revert and see themselves as bi might feel like a step backwards... considering how much they had to fight to be accepted as homosexual. At least this is a theory of mine. Worth to note "that everyone is inherently bi" is also just a theory. Although I do think it is a healthy outlook regardless if you act upon it or not.


"Homosexuality is regarded as shameful by barbarians and by those who live under despotic governments just as philosophy is regarded as shameful by them, because it is apparently not in the interest of such rulers to have great ideas engendered in their subjects, or powerful friendships or passionate love-all of which homosexuality is particularly apt to produce." - Plato


...you should indeed go somewhere else to talk about things that are more interesting to you...

There is a reason why I have the least amount of posts in the Lab Alchemy section. I tend to follow the above advice. ;)

:cool:

elixirmixer
11-19-2016, 11:44 PM
I think Dev and Seth may have been the only ones actually reading what I was saying, as apposed to writing an anti homophobic response before even thinking about what has been said.

I am not homophobic. At all. I have quite a few gay friends. I was speaking merely about the spiritual science of the practise, and how it seems ineffective to me. (bout the fourth time ive had to say this already)

I agree with what Dev has said about Bisexuality, that it is part of the NATURAL man, to have the ability and choice to want to fuck anything that he likes, if he so chooses to want to do that.

I am not unsettled in my sexuality, if anything, only in the fact that it is still there, raging away, rather than settling, asending and transmuting into higher consciousness.

Zoas23 I didnt really mean anything about your girlfriend being a heavy weight champ, I was just giving you shit because you started giving me shit, i remember once when i was drunk i got in a fight, and my wife came over and throat stomped a bloke to get him off me, which i was so proud of her for doing because i bet she was really scared and never really hurt anyone. nothing to be ashamed of at all. Like Seth said, very impressive level she has attained too.

It seems that gay rights activist seem to show more hatred to someone with an opinion than I certainly have shown to any homosexual. If you can't "prove me wrong" *(for lack of a better word) using sound methology, addressing the points I've made and highlighting where you think they deviate from the truth, then why are you responding to my posts at all, since unless your engaging in an intelligent enquiring into homosexuality, as I am, then YOU are just coming on here with your own HATE SPEECH against homo-phobics. Hypocrites. (you know who you are) :cool:

Of which, homophobics and bulling, are not a part of, and certainly wasn't introduced by me, into this conversation.

I do not have the need for people to agree with me, it would be nice though, of instead of getting out your pitch forks and acting exactly like what you say you hate, you just sit down, shut the fuck up and TALK about homosexual diversity in regards to spiritual discipline. If you can not rebuttal the very logical and rational pitfalls I've highlighted, then keep THINKING until you can. Don't just start talking for the sack of trying to make a homophobic feel guilty, because as far as i've seen, there arn't any here and you are wasting your breath.

As far as 'keeping my nose out of it' I do like to share my opinions, on things that are obviously related to our human condition, and like I said, am not really interested in guiding my post's in a way that is going to 'fit in'

If you end up hating me because you think i'm a homophobe, then your a dumb-shit and i wouldnt want to be friends with you anyway :cool:
(This is a general statement, aimed at anyone who is still thinking that I am a homophobic, misogynistic gay basher ((read the f'ing thread))

BACK TO THE INTERPLAY OF FORCES AND THE POTENTIAL FOR HOMOSEXUAL ENERGY ASSERTION:

When a man and a woman practise chi gung together, and if they are partnered, they would usually practise facing one another, because the chakra circulations are reversed, so, facing one another, they spin in the same direction and enhance each others practise.

You could replicate this 'man-to-man' simply by standing in-line, facing the same way. The chi gung practise Falun Dafa, creates very large energy vortex's, that easily encircle those practising around you, and is a great way to 'connect' with an individual.

Consider also, this image, for further inspiration, while heterosexual, i still think it can spark some thoughts associated with this topic:962

Sorry i still dont know how to just drop a picture into the text.

EDIT: To put this into context, i've just started wading my way through 80 pages of spiritus mundi thread and was thinking about how a balanced interplay between certain di-polic principles can help manifest the mundi, perhaps the same thing happens in humans.

Awani
11-20-2016, 01:36 AM
Sorry i still dont know how to just drop a picture into the text.

See thread: Posting videos and images (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2933-Posting-Images-amp-Videos&p=22152#post22152)

:cool:

hexahedron
11-20-2016, 07:35 AM
Regarding adam and eve:
http://www.phys.uconn.edu/~gibson/Notes/Section5_2/Sec5_2.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

I think understanding the basics is important, but applying the knowledge to other things is important too. Those images of Adam and Eve are very simplistic and although simple is important, there is a lot going on in our bodies that isn't captured in those pictures... I am partial to the Chinese meridians... and I imagine that people look more like this:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/25/26/48/252648c5cb1fccc4c9c8054be42091f6.jpg

I don't think anyone has been particularly hateful towards you @elixirmixer... homophobia is hatred towards gay people so I'm not sure what "hate speech to gay-hating people" is supposed to mean... just sounds like you are so uncomfortable.

like I've already said, telling people they are lesser/lower/misguided/broken sounds kind of disrespectful (mean) and condescending (talking down to someone)...

...and as was said to you, the "burden of proof" for your theories is on you (that means if you have claims to prove you need to prove them not the other person... that's science... although most of this forum is spirituality not science so you can claim anything and hold onto faith you are correct)

...usually if a bunch of people are telling you to chill out, you should probably take it easy... I don't think anyone here particularly hates you, but it's apparent from the previous posts that you are rubbing people the wrong way... no one is trying to convince you that being gay/bisexual is the way you should be... they are just asking you to let them be who they are and contribute in a positive way where you have something to contribute...

I mean... framing "this is the correct way to be and you are not correct because you are not adam and eve and your energies are all wrong" is not really a collaborative approach...
saying something more like "hey, so as far as I know, this is the convention (adam and eve picture), how do you think this could be rewritten to explain the energy flow in a same sex relationship or in a relationship between a man and a woman, where the man and the woman don't follow the stereotypical conventions of society?"

By not taking the latter approach you are showing contempt for alternative people in this community and that is upsetting to most of the people here. Although you might have some very valuable things to contribute, if you do not have the tact or communication skills to do so, the information will be lost in commute.

I have worked with a bunch of sensitive communities... working in translation/transliteration/transcription/etc... recording narratives and dialogues, asking for clarification and explanation, and there is a certain amount of sensitivity that you must use when doing so... if you are very critical, or use the information that they give you in a way that they find offensive, you are in the wrong and you have created a disturbance of peace... in the long run there is not really any consequence other than that you end up missing out, because they don't want to work with you, because you've broken their trust.

This all probably sounds really cliché, but it's the truth... many clichés hold a large portion of the truths of humanity...

In the world of pedagogy (fancy word for "teaching" that I learned at school :P ), you have to have skills beyond studying and reading to really excel or really make any headway.

I really like this meme because it's so true... but really it's the only way to get anywhere in life:
https://img.pandawhale.com/post-64665-How-To-Be-a-Grownup-at-Work-Re-JrUs.jpeg

Although I have great respect for sexual reproduction, and think it is one of many miracles of life, I do not think it is the pinnacle or highest form of being, nor the only right way to do things...

For example, if one were to make the philosopher's stone, it would be ill-advised to reproduce the entirety of one's eternal life and over-populate the earth... making arrangements to expand to the stars would be a great way to deal with this problem, but until that solution arrives we should hold off on reproduction... if one were to make the philosopher's stone it might be desirable to become a celibate hermit...

zoas23
11-20-2016, 07:47 AM
Just noticed all this stuff.

From the perspective of the late Sigmund Freud all this talking about homosexuality by people who say they are not homosexual could indicate unconscious homosexual urges. Are some of the posters here 'on the turn?'. Just a thought. As a great fan of Sigmund Freud's theories I mention this as merely a possibility and I will not be getting into involved arguements here. Just a constructive observation which I hope helps people to progress (Tenet Noscere).

There IS some truth in what you are saying... but as a Freudian enthusiast, you should know that these generalizations are very far from the spirit of the ideas that Freud had (no generalization can be made and claim that it is "Freudian").

I am a living example of what you have just said, though in a different way. Some things we despise a lot are sometimes things we appreciate.
This is quite personal, but my two parents are Freudian Psychoanalysts... I get along with them quite well, I always did... never had big conflicts with them.
BUT I always despised their profession and I always despised Freud. I HATED Freud.

I used to participate in a performance group with some other 20 to 30 persons... in most cases we did our performances at museums. In most cases with some esoteric symbolism and a quite chaotic nature (noise music sounding with the audience playing music too with us). Some 10 of us were mostly the same ones always, the other 10 to 20 often changed. One afternoon we were doing a performance at a museum and there was a new person among us (something very usual). I was HATING the performance, I was not enjoying it at all.... except for this person, who was playing a sax with a free jazz style and leading the other musicians, then she picked up the microphone and began to sing something beautiful. I was struck by cupid arrows. I simply kept on looking at her... Once the performance finished, we had to make order, but first we needed a rest. I saw her walking to a patio of the museum and she asked me if I had a tattoo with some drawings by Kircher, I said that I do. çshe blushed and said that knew me because of some essays I had written, but that I probably didn't knew her (which was the case, I had never seen her before in my life). She said that she saw me a few times at the gigs of a quite underground local band, I was surprised that she knew it (I think that we were the only persons there that knew it)... She confessed that she always wanted to say "hello, I know who you are" at those gigs, but that she assumed that it would have sounded silly. I was shocked. I had already decided that I wanted to be with her forever... so we talked about life and she suddenly mentioned her profession, which is not Kung Fu (even if she's excellent in that area)... A psychoanalyst. In a normal situation, such comment would have made me turn 180º and walk in the opposite direction, but in her case I found it interesting. The Freudian hater is engaged to a psychoanalyst (though after listening all over these years what she does with her patients and how they get better, my prejudices collapsed). This former Freud hater is very happy with that beautiful Psychoanalyst!


Or if we flip it around... Ronda Rousey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronda_Rousey) doesn't seem to loose her femininity (at least not when it comes to mainstream femininity)...

Which doesn't surprise me at all... A nice memory about our meeting with the Icon of Panddrogeny Genesis P-Orridge (at an esotericism meets sexual diversity festival that was organized in Chile by two brothers who are interested in both subjects and often organize festivals in Chile about Hermeticism & LGTTB culture, where we both were invited to show some works... and my eyes are wide open and my GF is red as a tomato because we admire the works by Genesis a lot, so we were a bit shocked).

https://s14.postimg.org/xb1yeweqp/1782437_10205251854363700_8383571644057084183_o.jp g

The kung-fu expert looks very feminine to me (and pretty, I like it when she blushes)... Oh and in the photo it's not too easy to see due to the perspective, but she's 5 cm taller than I am. Isn't the man supposed to be taller than the woman? Oh, well, we don't care about such things!!!!


I know this is somewhat off topic, but damn Zoas23, she sounds awesome! :D
I would totally wanna spar with her. (And even though she probably could kick my ass, it would be awesome/fun to try.)

You're also right about it being a thing of beauty when a beauty (anyone with the grace and control) has attained a mastery of the kata.

I can only agree with such statement (that she is awesome).
The true secret of why she is AWESOME with martial arts, and this is related to other threads probably, she began with tae kwon do when she was around 6 years old and when she was around 10 she also began with Kung Fu, practicing Martial arts for YEARS some 6 hours per day (and running quite fast for 2 other hours)... Considering all the time she invested in such practices, it would be actually surprising if she WASN'T extremely good. So it's not truly a natural talent, but the result of a lot of practice... and her unusually long legs for a woman, which make it hard for the others to even get close to her during a fight. So she uses that physical advantage in a clever way.


I am not homophobic. At all. I have quite a few gay friends..

I am sorry... you are homophobic. I am getting your point of view too... You have the strange belief that you are explaining some sort of objective truth when your rhethoric is limited to repeating again and again that being homosexual is "wrong" because your interpretation of the Bible leads you to believe that YHVH is God and that this God that you adore doesn't like gays... and such idea is followed by some absurd ideas about what alchemy is.

I assume you BELIEVE that your rhetoric is not homophobic... but it is. The fact that you have a few gay friends won't change such thing.


To put this into context, i've just started wading my way through 80 pages of spiritus mundi thread and was thinking about how a balanced interplay between certain di-polic principles can help manifest the mundi, perhaps the same thing happens in humans.

The meeting of some specific opposites under very specific circumstances can manifest the SM.
The same thing happens in every human... stop breathing and you'll die and it won't matter if you are heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual or transgender.

The symbolism of some issues confuses you. The Sun in an alchemical context can mean gold, but it can also stand for some 10 other things (or more!). You are simply reading a metaphor and taking it to a literal interpretation (which is not accurate).

Quite similar to those who believe that Jesus walked on the water and don't get that it may mean something else.

hexahedron
11-20-2016, 08:02 AM
To be fair zoas23, I can not be certain that Jesus did not walk on water... I just prefer to not be certain though... because that would be sick...

elixirmixer
11-20-2016, 08:06 AM
To be fair zoas23, I can not be certain that Jesus did not walk on water... I just prefer to not be certain though... because that would be sick...

He did. It was. And it will be again. This is not a belief, it is simply the natural progression of the earth, considering "As above, so below" and " When you fix it into earth it becomes perfect" as YHWH Himself, fixes Himself into the body, as Jesus Christ. It is the perfect representation of art, despite all the silliness that the world insists on expressing.. Ask Him long enough, and He will tell you Himself.

hexahedron
11-20-2016, 08:16 AM
Christ was also reported to have said that anyone can perform miracles and walk on water... so I do hope you are right @elixirmixer :)

I don't like to think it's impossible... but I also won't insist it is absolute truth without having first hand experience...

And even after I have first hand experience, if I can't share that experience with someone else who has first hand experience, I won't try to convince someone who doesn't believe me...

We must be grateful when people see eye to eye with us, and be gracious when they don't...

elixirmixer
11-20-2016, 08:23 AM
We must be grateful when people see eye to eye with us, and be gracious when they don't...

Perhaps the wisest statement of the thread...

Andro
11-20-2016, 12:19 PM
The lyrics are more powerful if you understand German, but English close captions/subtitles are included and displayed by default through the cc button.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qOg8E4Tzto

zoas23
11-20-2016, 08:51 PM
So on that note...

How do people think that homosexuality can fit into alchemy.

I was thinking that it is an interesting difference for astrology, because the polarity of the relationship would change. Like a female earth sign with a male earth sign should be "balanced" so how I was thinking about it is something like -- with +- so it's an overall -2... if you were to put two earth signed men in a relationship you would get something like +- and +-, so overall it would be 0...

I haven't drawn up a whole "compatibility" chart for straight and gay couples, and in a lot of ways I think this is too simplistic, but I thought it was an interesting thought experiment. I'm not sure how useful it would be either.

Does anyone else have any ideas how a homosexual/bisexual lens could be a useful tool for discovery?

I don't get the "+" and "-" logic you are using.
I've done several comparative charts for two persons of the same gender... not necessarily related to "love", but quite often a common project (i.e, John and Mark decide open a restaurant and they ask you to tell if their collaboration will work well or not)... it is not TOO different the idea of this long term project and the idea of a romantic relationship.

From the point of view of Astrology, would you say that a Restaurant managed and owned by "John and Stephanie" will work better than a Restaurant managed and owned by "John and Mark" ? I do not see a difference.

As for the controversy of Jesus walking on the water... if you like the Bible, then you know that the idea that Jesus speaks using parables is explicitly denoted (you can even find explicit explanations in the Bible itself of why he insists on using parables instead of a literal language)... If you compare the many *miracles* which involve Jesus and an element (water, bread, fishes, dead people, etc) and you compare them to alchemical texts... then you may end up thinking that there is something even more surprising in the non-literal interpretation... but that's just my opinion.

elixirmixer
11-20-2016, 09:58 PM
As for the controversy of Jesus walking on the water... if you like the Bible, then you know that the idea that Jesus speaks using parables is explicitly denoted (you can even find explicit explanations in the Bible itself of why he insists on using parables instead of a literal language)... If you compare the many *miracles* which involve Jesus and an element (water, bread, fishes, dead people, etc) and you compare them to alchemical texts... then you may end up thinking that there is something even more surprising in the non-literal interpretation... but that's just my opinion.

Definitly a lot to be had in the hidden meaning of the parables. Thats what first got me sucked into Christianity. There are MANY HIDDEN SECRETS, I may have to start a gnostic Christian thread to fully explain what I mean.

hexahedron
11-21-2016, 04:33 AM
@zoas23 I can imagine that they are parables for sure. I should read through them with an eye for parables instead of literals again. I haven't looked at those verses in a long time! :)

The logic I was looking at for astrology is kind of simplifying gender to elemental nature or polarity. The idea of Earth and Water being Receptive/Passive or of a "feminine" nature, sometimes denoted as a minus sign; and Air and Fire being Active or "masculine" and marked as "positive".
I think a lot of the actual personality of a person could potentially be explained by astrological signs. I'm not entirely sold on the one sun sign describing the person definitively, because interactions with other people of other signs would affect your personality too. But each person does have a sun sign, which is associated with an element.

For example Virgo/Taurus/Capricorn being Mutable/Fixed/Cardinal Earth signs. They are all three receptive( "-" ) or feminine... supposedly in astrology any earth sign is a good match for any other Earth sign, so the overall polarity of signs would be -2. But then if it is a straight relationship, you have one male who is active or "+" and one female who is receptive "-", which is where I would get overall - - + - => 2 x - or -2, since the + and - cancel out.

For the same relationship with two men, you would get - - + + (earth, earth, man, man) which would be 0.
And for two women you would get - - - - (earth, earth, woman, woman) 4 x - or -4.

Since the convention for relationships in astrology seems to be -2 for the typical straight relationship, I was thinking maybe if you were to do the same calculations for a gay/lesbian couple if the sign compatibility would have to change in order to "balance" to a better number, like... say... -2 or something...

So in this case, since the gender of the relationship members matches, the signs have to not match in order to get +/-2 instead of +/-4 and 0.
Like maybe an "ideal" match for a gay couple would be opposite signs so that the numbers balance out. Like two women, one fire one water would be - - + - (woman, woman, fire, water). which would be -2 after cancellations of + and -.

I feel like this doesn't even have to be just for lovers but for friendship too. I have had a lot of friends of the same gender but opposite sign who I get along with so well. For a while all of my best friends were the sign that I am supposed to be least compatible with.

This isn't a definite formula but something I have been working on. What do you think? (I don't mind if you think it is dumb hehe)

Andro
11-21-2016, 06:53 AM
1. This is not a thread about "Jesus", unless anyone can show indicators of his sexuality or if he himself explicitly said something about alternative sexuality :) (I mean Jesus himself, not his followers)

2. To the best of my knowledge, you can not tell from a horoscope if a person is male or female. However, there are a few 'gay indicators' - but more than one indicator must be present in the chart, for accuracy in this area. These indicators often involve placements and aspects of Uranus (the 'gay' planet) + sometimes Neptune for lesbians.

3. Humans already have their own inner 'polarities', and how one's inner polarities are 'wired' is already revealed and expressed in the horoscope. I see no need to add additional parameters/calculations for same gender relationships.

zoas23
11-21-2016, 08:31 AM
I feel like this doesn't even have to be just for lovers but for friendship too. I have had a lot of friends of the same gender but opposite sign who I get along with so well. For a while all of my best friends were the sign that I am supposed to be least compatible with.

This isn't a definite formula but something I have been working on. What do you think? (I don't mind if you think it is dumb hehe)

The idea of the females bing a "-" and the males being a "+"... I find it very misogynist (though that's not my opinion of YOU, I am simply talking about the Astrological system you are describing. I don't mean it in a political way of political correctness, but in the sense that it leads to wrong conclusions. I don't know why she came to my mind, but I would not describe Margaret Thatcher as a "passive" person.

Some persons are very active and some persons are very passive... this is independent of genders & sexual orientations.

As for friendships... if you are using the Sun sign only, the two males I trust the most: one of them is a Leo, just like me... the other one is an Aries (which is not simply a fire sign too, but the sign where the sun is exalted, whilst Leo is the sign where the Sun reigns).


1. This is not a thread about "Jesus", unless anyone can show indicators of his sexuality or if he himself explicitly said something about alternative sexuality :) (I mean Jesus himself, not his followers)

2. To the best of my knowledge, you can not tell from a horoscope if a person is male or female. However, there are a few 'gay indicators' - but more than one indicator must be present in the chart, for accuracy in this area. These indicators often involve placements and aspects of Uranus (the 'gay' planet) + sometimes Neptune for lesbians.

3. Humans already have their own inner 'polarities', and how one's inner polarities are 'wired' is already revealed and expressed in the horoscope. I see no need to add additional parameters/calculations for same gender relationships.

1. My bad, I somehow introduced Jesus here for some reason.

2. I can't tell from a horoscope if a person in male or female either. SOMETIMES it is possible to tell if a person is homosexual or not by looking at the horoscope (though only SOMETIMES)... though I think it's possible with the 7 classics alone. A very close friend of mine is transgender... I am quite sure that if I show you 3 charts of three male friends of mine, without even including the 3 "modern planets", you would be able to find out which one belongs to the one who is a transgender male. The exercise would be tricky though, because you would know that one of them is a transgender male... and probably if I proposed a different exercise, you may get lost (i.e, if I show you the same 3 charts, but I simply say: "one of these 3 charts belongs to a person who has a sexual life which is somehow different that the common standards, then you may probably find which one is the right chart, but I doubt you would end up arriving to the conclusion that he's transgender).

3. I can only agree with that statement. To be honest, if I had to compare two horoscopes (of two persons who have a romantic relationship or are a couple)... I don't even need to know their genders. It's not part of the "calculus" in my opinion. I've had a long term relationship with a woman who was an excellent astrologer. Something quite interesting happened. Due to certain circumstances she had to stay at my house for 3 days. During the second day we were curious about each other's horoscope and found out that I had 4 planets in the 4th house and she had 5 planets in the 9th House. We laughed and said: "We would be a terrible couple... one of us would be sad with long terms travels, the existence of the other one is based on long term travels... we would end up fighting because of that!". We laughed about it because the idea of being a couple was not realistic due to several circumstances. However, on the next day we be became a couple.
Once we were a couple, I followed her through a myriad of countries and "not having a permanent house" was her ideal of freedom.... such idea was impossible to understand for me and we finally splitted up because of such thing. It's funny how we both predicted that being a couple was not going to work in the long run and we even knew why. Our genders were not involved at all in our conclusions when we compared our charts (we would have had EXACTLY the same problem if the two of us had been woman, or if the two of us had been men or if the two of us had been transgender... such thing didn't mattered at all).

In short: if we speak about Astrology... I wouldn't use the "+" and "-" theory of the allegedly active males and the supposedly passive females... it's not a political idea, I simply think it leads to wrong conclusions.

Andro
11-21-2016, 10:26 AM
This bit (by Australian stand-up performer Steve Hughes) is just hilarious ! ! !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xxiK6Z4eXs

elixirmixer
11-21-2016, 10:35 AM
1. My bad, I somehow introduced Jesus here for some reason.

2. I can't tell from a horoscope if a person in male or female either. SOMETIMES it is possible to tell if a person is homosexual or not by looking at the horoscope (though only SOMETIMES)...

1. There's always a good reason to bring up Jesus :cool:

2. Some people have the ability to sense sexual energy from other people. I know this because I have that ability, even being able to tell whom has slept with whom, or someones sexual orientation, or their level of sexual energy, or the stage of their menstrual cycle, just from the tone of their voice, or their smell, or the way that they walk, or how much ego they persperate. These are the fine intricacies of the developed intuition, not that it is at all psychic, but rather a 'quantum computer' type effect related to the hightened-senses of the body interlinked with millions of synapses that are magnetically connected to a collective consciousness... blah blah blah...

Just shareing this as more confirmation that these 'different' energies exist in people and can be 'measured' with the trained senses....

Andro
11-21-2016, 11:05 AM
There's always a good reason to bring up Jesus

1. Generally speaking: This statement is debatable, as it is not the same for some as it is for others. For some people, there's always a 'good reason' to bring up the weather.

2. Particularly on discussion boards and on this forum: Only if one can show how it is relevant to the topic of the thread.

Awani
11-21-2016, 12:30 PM
...that these 'different' energies exist in people and can be 'measured' with the trained senses....
Sound like you have a pretty good gaydar (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaydar). I personally have a very good intuition when it comes to figure out who is an asshole.

As for this thread I am not sure what we are debating? Have we got lost in some sexual orientation Chinese whispers (first post of this thread is far away).

As for Jesus I do think that he was a bit gay. I have no proof. And there is no proof that Jesus was anything but a metaphor. But if we assume, for arguments sake, that Jesus was a physical individual and based on his archetype, his creed and his general apperance and persona he was gay for sure. Bisexual without a doubt. In fact if I ever had to have sex with any man in history Jesus would be my pick. Quickest way to the top of the intergalactic career is the "bed route", as it is anywhere.


"Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour?"
"I have not only accepted him, I've fucked him."

(according to my gaydar Jesus is bottom)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

God as an energy (whatever you call it) is gay also from our petty human perspective, but the real "truth" is that God is asexual. God has no gender. No physical qualities. No sexual fantasy. No womb. No dick.

If the Bible is true, and as far as the beginning is concerned I think it is, then that means God created everything in one second with only thought. This is very similar to many indigenous cultures who also view the creation as coming from some imagination.

Anyone who can create a world will not concern itself with gender. When I doodle on a piece of paper whilst talking on the phone it is irrelevant to me if the doodle is a Hillary supporter or not. Same thing.

Brings to mind what Loki said in the first Avengers movie:


Nick Fury: We have no quarrel with your people.
Loki: An ant has no quarrel with a boot.

:cool:

hexahedron
11-21-2016, 10:17 PM
The sum total of the individual would have to take into account more than physical gender. And yeah all of the signs need to be taken into account in order to determine the outward behaviour of the individual. I think maybe the reason women would be "-" is more like there is a recess in which life can grow. Not so much as passive in the sense of inaction. Or even just arbitrarily marking it as "-" with no real meaning... I think of it more like in electronics where it denotes the flow of electrons as opposed to the flow of protons. Like the same path but flowing in the opposite direction or something. But not so literally.
It is definitely not easy to say what is "female" or "male behaviour. I think I am just more interested in understanding the physical and self-identifying/emotional genders' influences on the energy of an individual.
My physical and emotional genders align but my astrological sign is opposite to those. Which I find interesting. And wonder how it influences my behaviour and personality.
I also don't really look at astrology in a lot of ways like newspapers do.
I like the division of the elements and think there is more potential to explain people that way.
Earth causes things to be still or harmonizes things to its energy. Water contracts or draws things towards it. Fire expands and spreads. Air moves or creates divergent energy from its own.
Cardinal is a manipulator. Fixed is neither affecting nor affected, kind of like a measuring stick. Mutable adapts and morphs to fit shapes.
Those are just the default behaviours but I mean those energies under different stresses can respond in different ways.
I think in a way, at least historically, women have been more of a social group with more cohesion and communication/community, where as men have been more inclined to be divergent and isolating. That's not to say that men are independent and women are dependent but that's kind of how our society has formed. I definitely think that should become more balanced, but probably would take a lot of work from everyone so as not to fall into old habits.

elixirmixer
11-21-2016, 10:49 PM
I find it quite shocking that this forum was so quick to jump at the defence of homosexuals, yet, just as quickly would make a mockery of an ancient and sacred culture...

I will no longer share in this thread.

Pride - 1
Personal virtue - 0

This type of karma is a heavy one to bear, IME, and this is a gental warning of said karmas. Have a gay ol' time everyone :) see you's in the practical section. :)

Awani
11-21-2016, 10:53 PM
...a mockery of an ancient and sacred culture...

If this is referring to Christianity I would certainly not call it ancient. And if by mockery you mean anything I have said about Jesus/God then that is on you, because I love both of them dearly. So much in fact that it is ok with me if either of them is gay.

Also I am not sure you comprehend karma, but then again it is not for me to say what is right or not when it comes to philosophical beliefs.

Finally do you know that Pride is a sin? ;)

:cool:

zoas23
11-21-2016, 11:10 PM
Sound like you have a pretty good gaydar (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaydar). I personally have a very good intuition when it comes to figure out who is an asshole.

The theory of my transgender friend: we all have an "useless super power" (USP)TM... His USP is to detect pregnancy with an accuracy of probably 100% (I know a lot of stories of girls who got offended at him because he told them: "you are pregnant" and they said he was crazy... a month later they called him just to tell him: "Wow, I came back from the doctor, I am pregnant since a month ago, how the hell you knew it???? I didn't knew it myself!!!"). My USP is to know when 2 persons are going to become a couple.


As for this thread I am not sure what we are debating? Have we got lost in some sexual orientation Chinese whispers (first post of this thread is far away).

The original intention collapsed against a wall of prejudices... I can't say I am surprised.
The putrefaction of those prejudices MAY still lead to interesting ideas.
It's also interesting as to see where we are standing (socially).

Going back to the original post... I love this very gay song by Morrissey (I admire his integrity). I love these lines:

"I'm slipping below the water line
Reach for my hand
And, and the race is won
Reject my hand
And the damage is done"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP5vVvXt6Ys

There was a discussion recently on the meaning of the handshakes of some orders... In a strange way their deepest meaning is clearly explained in these few lines. You can take the hand of someone who is in a bad situation and you both "win"... or you can reject the hand and you both "lose". The famous Lion's paw has never been explained so clearly to me than in this song... which is about homesexuality, but strangely also abot the famous handshake... and the deep meaning of accepting the hand of somebody else and recognize him as an equal without questioning him... OR rejecting the hand and and feeling very proud of being "morally superior" or "spiritually superior" to somebody else... and creating a damage for the two persons involved.

Kiorionis
11-22-2016, 02:01 AM
"I'm slipping below the water line
Reach for my hand
And, and the race is won
Reject my hand
And the damage is done"

There was a discussion recently on the meaning of the handshakes of some orders... In a strange way their deepest meaning is clearly explained in these few lines. You can take the hand of someone who is in a bad situation and you both "win"... or you can reject the hand and you both "lose". The famous Lion's paw has never been explained so clearly to me than in this song... which is about homesexuality, but strangely also abot the famous handshake... and the deep meaning of accepting the hand of somebody else and recognize him as an equal without questioning him... OR rejecting the hand and and feeling very proud of being "morally superior" or "spiritually superior" to somebody else... and creating a damage for the two persons involved.

Which is actually a very interesting interpretation of the "hand of the philosophers"

:cool:

Andro
11-22-2016, 07:30 AM
ancient and sacred culture...

1. Homosexuality is more 'ancient' than (the allegedly historical) Jesus and also more 'ancient' than the old testament.

2. Even in OT terms, androgyny precedes (is more ancient than) the gender split.

3. Homosexuality/gender ambiguity was considered sacred among many indigenous tribes before they were bullied into Christianity by Western conquerors. Very often gay/gender-ambiguous people were chosen to be trained by the local shaman, because they were believed to have an increased ability/innate predisposition to 'travel between worlds'.

Awani
11-23-2016, 08:51 PM
Exactly. Stumbled upon this concept that I really liked:


Two Spirit is a modern umbrella term used by some indigenous North Americans to describe certain spiritual people - gay, lesbian, bisexual and gender-variant individuals - in their communities...

"Two Spirit" is not interchangeable with "LGBT Native American" or "Gay Indian"; this title differs from most western, mainstream definitions of sexuality and gender identity in that it is not so much about whom one sleeps with, or how one personally identitfies; rather, it is a sacred, spiritual and ceremonial role that is recognized and confirmed by the Elders of the Two Spirit's ceremonial community...

Third and fourth gender roles traditionally embodied by two-spirit people include performing work and wearing clothing associated with both men and women. Not all tribes/nations have rigid gender roles, but, among those that do, some consider there to be at least four genders: feminine woman, masculine woman, feminine man, masculine man - source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit)

:cool:

Andro
11-24-2016, 09:36 AM
at least four genders: feminine woman, masculine woman, feminine man, masculine man

There are also 'feminine' men who are hetero, there are 'masculine' men who are gay, etc, etc... The variations are quite innumerable... The tiny boxes that we construct in our (even tinier) heads are SO limiting...

What I'm basically saying is - - - 'Papá' has many 'mansions' on 'his' 'property'... There is room enough for EVERYONE :)

Awani
11-24-2016, 12:43 PM
Sure. I just liked the "two spirit" aspect in regards to having a relationship with someone, meaning that "love" and "lust" is truly blind when true love/lust appears.

:cool:

Ghislain
11-28-2016, 06:46 PM
Try and get you head around this one...

Love Is All You Need (http://123movies.is/film/love-is-all-you-need-18017/watching.html)

Ghislain

Axismundi000
11-30-2016, 09:13 AM
I wonder how long it will be before the cultural marxists realise that with all the measures (here in the U.K. at least) fully implemented, people just don't naturally gravitate towards socialism. I personally appreciate their efforts in removing the restrictions and oppressions of western culture, not just about sexuality. Nevertheless the cultural marxists are in for a disappointment,

Awani
11-30-2016, 01:11 PM
I wonder how long it will be before the cultural marxists realise that with all the measures (here in the U.K. at least) fully implemented, people just don't naturally gravitate towards socialism. I personally appreciate their efforts in removing the restrictions and oppressions of western culture, not just about sexuality. Nevertheless the cultural marxists are in for a disappointment,

We are in a worldwide right-wing tidal wave at the moment... 4-8 years from now we will get a socialistic tidal wave again... like I said to a friend yesterday "the tide comes in, the tides goes out... so what we got to do is get on that surf board". ;)

:cool:

Axismundi000
11-30-2016, 04:58 PM
I am politely pointing out that all this pro-gay stuff in modern western society is nothing more than cultural Marxism. In the U.K. virtually all cultural Marxist objectives have been achieved as far as I can tell. Most young women are single mothers, church attendance is below 10%, minority groups are given greater privilege than existing majority, justice is generally considered too lenient and basically ineffective etc etc.

Yet the sudden 'transformation' to a socialist society has not occurred and I suspect never will. Just as classical Marxism provides powerful criticism of capitalism but not effective replacement (nil communist utopia), same with cultural Marxism.

So as I mentioned the deconstruction of all the oppressive western cultural stuff I appreciate, but the ultimate objective of cultural Marxism will never be achieved, they will forever be 'waiting for godot'.

Awani
11-30-2016, 05:42 PM
I am politely pointing out that all this pro-gay stuff in modern western society is nothing more than cultural Marxism.

It has been pro-gay in the past and in different societies in the past. It is just a wave we are currently in. That is why we have alt-right. Before the right were against gays, now they are no more. Alt-right is just "the right" with some modifications.


Most young women are single mothers, church attendance is below 10%, minority groups are given greater privilege than existing majority, justice is generally considered too lenient and basically ineffective...

I think the reason that more women are single mothers is because now they are allowed to leave abusive relationships, which they were not allowed to before. Church attendance levels are an excellent development because organised religion is finally becoming irrelevant (even if it is still quite powerful)... and finally it has been well proven that harsh punishments does not lower crime.

I don't think any of these things are cultural Marxism, rather it is just results of the increase in logic and reason and the evolution of society. And more things like the above are coming. Luckily those that are opposed will die out, and good riddance.

If I understand your use of the term cultural Marxism I think, for me, it applies more to "third/fourth" wave feminism and political correctness.

Although the UK is pretty much fucked... any Empire gets its fare share of karma eventually and rightly so.

:cool: