PDA

View Full Version : Racism and Homophobia ban?



Awani
06-24-2013, 01:56 PM
This quote is a result of this thread, and I have reposted it here at the beginning for easy reference.

In the Rules & Guidelines (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/announcement.php?f=2&a=3) it says:


The following is an absolute NO (either in posts or private messages):
- Threats
- Harrassments
- Personal attacks

* Keep discussions calm, focused and respect other peoples views.

So really we already have a ban on homophobic and racist views (as they are harassing + disrespectful) especially when they are directed at a fellow member. So this poll is meaningless.

The reason we (I and the mods) got a bit confused was because we have never had an attack on a group before (in this case homosexuals). Usually it is attacks person to person which everyone knows is not allowed.

But if someone says all gays are perverted, immoral, unnatural, sinful, disgusting people they aren't attacking an individual but a group... and the problem with this is that they are actually attacking individuals because here at the forums we have transgender, queer, gay, bi, straight and black, yellow, red and white people as well as both men and women.

I want free speech. But free speech require responsibility... and it does not include personal attacks... be it towards individuals or towards groups of individuals present here at the forum.

I hope this makes things more clear?

So I hereby sentence Thrival and Orbital to be banned for breaking the Rules & Guidelines. Let's hope they are the last homophobes that we get... and I hope every pro-free speech here agrees as well as all the people hurt by these homophobic attacks.

ANYONE that feels attacked personally in PM or in the THREADS let one of the moderators know.

There is a report button next to each post that you can click also.

Alchemy Forums tolerate all people, all genders and races... and all opinions but NOT (according to the rules) if they are trolling, flaming or attacking anyone!

:cool:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The threads infected with the homophobic flame war will be cleaned at a later date by one of the mods.This came up due to what some consider homophobic remarks in this thread: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3634-Diversity-In-Sexual-Orientation-Gender-Identity

From a post of mine in above mentioned thread:


I have been asked to have ZERO TOLERANCE for racism and homophobia in this forum. Such things are not tolerated in most places in society, but I have the weird idea that censorship should not BE. Peoples personal beliefs are just that and nothing more. As long as personal attacks are not done I don't see a problem with someone saying "I think homosexuality is wrong"... if I did have a problem with it I would be no better. Fascism goes both ways.

There is one way I can get around being labelled a censor and that is to have ALL OF YOU decide.

I guess other things could be included in racism/homophobia but I can't think of one now... honestly I don't like doing this but I guess this poll will solve that issue. I'm way to open-minded for running a forum maybe... LOL!

Also keep in mind if we ban racist views can I still say I think the Vatican and the people who follow the Pope are morons? Is that also not some sort of "racism" or "phobia"? I mean I don't mind catholics and I don't think they are unnatural, I just think they are silly... still... censoring things is not easy and I appreciate any comments on the matter.

Where do we draw the line? Up till now I have always drawn it at personal attack, never for any other reason. I would like to keep it that way, but if you all feel we have to draw a line at other things as well then lets do that.

:cool:

Seth-Ra
06-24-2013, 02:59 PM
I don't believe a view should be banned, as long as it isn't a personal attack/threat to one's life.

I know the conversation has been a bit heated lately, but if either side can't take the fire, then there is a problem. IMO
Violence often is a part of new creations - who doesn't love volcanoes? ;)

Anyway, I think the majority would like the free-ability to speak their mind, popular opinion or not, and not get banned for it. They may need to learn how to do that in a more tactful way, some eloquence lessons perhaps, but that is all.
Besides, no one is being forced to read or listen to anything they don't want. If a comment upsets, then stop reading it. *shrugs*

I don't believe in victims, or victimizing, and people cannot learn how to defend their own conscience/soul without exposure to "attacks". While I know the proposition for this type of ban was no doubt fueled by good intentions, I believe it's an over-reaction. Everyone may just need to step back, take a deep breath and realize NO ONE can MAKE you do anything you don't want, or think anyway ya don't want. People with hurtful views, are nothing but good sparring buddies, IF you choose to engage in it.
Let each individual take responsibility for their own actions/words - and let not our wonderful mods and admin be troubled by having to play "police state" cause of a few hateful children trying to kick sand on the others. ;)

Relax folks, it's all ok. :)




~Seth-Ra

Awani
06-24-2013, 03:04 PM
I don't believe a view should be banned, as long as it isn't a personal attack/threat to one's life.

I agree fully. Then again at my work such views are not allowed... well the view is allowed but not saying it... kind of an unwritten law. So in a sense such views are banned here in Europe at least. Not banned by law but by general consent and in all public domains such as work, school etc.

For instance we have a racists party in the government but they don't say anything racist... but they have a racist view. So they are presenting their racist arguments in a moderate logical fashion rather than saying "hang all niggers."

So maybe not ban the views, but the way it is presented to avoid problems?

Sigh, I don't know... I voted for further discussion.

:cool:

Andro
06-24-2013, 03:12 PM
let not our wonderful mods and admin be troubled by having to play "police state" cause of a few hateful children trying to kick sand on the others. ;)

'Wonderful mods and admin' - LOL... flattery will get you anywhere!

(Just kidding :))
----------------------
You're absolutely right. Neither of us wants to play 'police state'.

Ethically, my natural inclination is also 'no ban'. (Oops, I just said 'natural'...)

However, there is an internal conflict (my own personal 'aspect' :)) that I have to deal with, a result of the adversity I had to put up with.

BUT - I should not allow this to influence my judgement and ethics.

I'll vote later...

Seth-Ra
06-24-2013, 03:31 PM
I agree fully. Then again at my work such views are not allowed... well the view is allowed but not saying it... kind of an unwritten law. So in a sense such views are banned here in Europe at least. Not banned by law but by general consent and in all public domains such as work, school etc.

For instance we have a racists party in the government but they don't say anything racist... but they have a racist view. So they are presenting their racist arguments in a moderate logical fashion rather than saying "hang all niggers."

So maybe not ban the views, but the way it is presented to avoid problems?

Sigh, I don't know... I voted for further discussion.

:cool:


I understand that. I think explaining why the chosen wording is wrong, is probably a better outlet, to start with. If it keeps being outright poisonous, then maybe ban under the original terms that its crossing the line after having been made fully aware of it.

I remember when i was like 12 or so, joining some sword-forums to try and learn about the geometries, metallurgy, etc etc all so id know which kind i could use as a weapon, reliably. Well, i didnt understand that the practitioners found my use of it as a weapon offensive (i still think they are stupid for that, but thats just me. ;) ) and we ended up clashing and they kicked me... multiple times. :o

My point is, i walked away with an understanding of being a bit more tactful in my questions and more sensitive to how what i say might come across, which is a universal trait across all platforms of communication. These guys may just not know how/why its being offensive, when to them, its just a fact.

As i said, im from the deep south - my Dad just doesnt understand why the word "nigger" is offensive to black people, cause to him, its just a denotation of their skin color, like calling them black people, or african american - whatever, but summed up in one word. (I can understand, especially since in alchemy the black phase is often called negredo - shit is what it is)

So, maybe they just need to have a sit down and have it explained to them as to how their view can be expressed, without attacking anyone.

After all, in the early days of when Andro was here, he thought i was being hostile to him with my questions and views (a lot was in PMs, and some things bled out into threads that dealt with similar issues), and i felt the same on the other hand - but then we had that golden moment of getting our wording right, and we've been on the same page ever since. :cool:

If they cant find better forms of expression, however, then maybe one last ditch-effort of asking them to step out of that conversation/thread - they might be good contributors to other things (more important things), just not able to adequately express their view on certain touchy issues.

Thats the best i can come up with at the moment. lol :)


_________
[Edited to add]


'Wonderful mods and admin' - LOL... flattery will get you anywhere!

(Just kidding :))
----------------------
You're absolutely right. Neither of us wants to play 'police state'.

Ethically, my natural inclination is also 'no ban'. (Oops, I just said 'natural'...)

However, there is an internal conflict (my own personal 'aspect' :)) that I have to deal with, a result of the adversity I had to put up with.

BUT - I should not allow this to influence my judgement and ethics.

I'll vote later...

Well that is always the trick - to see from the Whole and understand, while still being a piece and having to follow your individual piece's path.

Take your time my friend. :) I am un-bias to all this, as i dont really have to deal with it personally, though a friend and a special close-person does have to deal with it, but i am still unemotional towards it, as its a non-issue for me. :)






~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
06-24-2013, 04:03 PM
I love that quote
"Prejudices are rarely overcome by argument; not being founded in reason they cannot be destroyed by logic. Tryon Edwards"

I believe people should be given enough rope to expose themselves so I am against censorship.

Ghislain

Andro
06-24-2013, 04:49 PM
Well, friends, today has been a bit more eventful than usual, and I have to go to work now...

But before I leave, and while you're waiting for your turn to the voting booth, I'll turn on this huge flat screen TV in the antechamber and play a video on racism and prejudice in general.

It's not an usual video, it's actually a documentary of a very unique workshop and exercise by an equally unique woman - Jane Elliott (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott).

It's called 'Blue Eyes - Brown Eyes'. It affected me profoundly when I first watched it a few years back, it's not new, but many things in there are still relevant IMO.

The subtitles and the 90 seconds intro are in Portuguese, but the film itself is in English.

Enjoy!

Blue Eyes - Brown Eyes (A Class Divided) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD5HrT8PNr4)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD5HrT8PNr4

Awani
06-24-2013, 05:05 PM
I love that quote

"Prejudices are rarely overcome by argument; not being founded in reason they cannot be destroyed by logic. — Tryon Edwards"

A large dose of Shrooms would remedy any predjudices... that is why people are so scared of it (Shrooms that is). ;)

I'll watch that video later Andro.

:cool:

LostGnosticOccultum
06-24-2013, 05:23 PM
I don't believe a view should be banned, as long as it isn't a personal attack/threat to one's life.
I agree.


the view is allowed but not saying it... kind of an unwritten law. So in a sense such views are banned here in Europe at least. Not banned by law but by general consent and in all public domains such as work, school etc.
I thought this is how it works here?

Have we been having a race battle or something? I didn't even know there was racism taking place here? Well if we all just follow them "Unwritten law... of general consent," we wouldn't have to even discus this issue.

Ghislain
06-24-2013, 05:42 PM
lol Dev shhhh

They will label the forum a drug haven.

Not exactly sure who THEY are though :)

Ghislain

zoas23
06-24-2013, 06:55 PM
I voted "Yes".

And voting yes doesn't mean banning the people who has expressed these views in the past, since it is kinda tricky to create a law that applies to the past. So I am voting "yes" for a NEW rule.

I wrote to one of the moderators stating that I'm not a fan of Dev's idea of "absolute free speech" (I know Dev is an enthusiast of an absolute free speech... and I am not).

My interest in alchemy started after getting involved with an hermetic order in 1998. After that one, came several others (I know, some people prefers not to be involved with any of them, some others prefer to get involved with one... and a few others enjoy being involved with several ones that offer different points of view, accepting that none of them is perfectly complete -and that was my experience).
LOL.... I am not trying to look "important" because I've been involved with some hermetic orders... I assume a lot of people here has done such thing too... and some other people prefers not to do it and that's fine for me too.

My non-virtual experience (physical) in these 15 years has been that in each one of these groups there are several gay persons.... and a lot of diverstity (young people and old people, poor people and billonaires, amazing artists and people who can't tell if the School of Athens was painted by Rafael or Picasso and have no interest in art, people who have only a very limited interest in Religion and people who are obsessed with Religion, people who reads avant-garde literature and people who doesn't take too seriously anything that was written in the last 500 years, people who was born in my country and people who was born in other countries; white people, Asian people, aboriginal american people, left-wingers and right-wingers, people who has their core group of friends in the order(s) and people who has a friendly relationship with the people there, but their main friends are not into the order(s).... and every other etcetera that is possible).

In all these groups I've been involved with.... there is a zero tolerance for racism and homophobia.
And in 15 years, I've never seen anyone having any kind of trouble with that... nor I have seen anything that gets even close to someone getting expelled for homophobia or racism.

I haven't seen either any gay having to hide the fact that s/he's gay. Nor I have seen anyone pushing there any kind of "agenda"... nor I remember any circumstance in which a person who was heterosexual became gay due to some sort of "gay propaganda". Nor I remember any circumstance in which anyone was asked to justify why he's gay, heterosexual or whatever....

I really don't remember ANYONE getting worried or scandalized about what another person is doing with his penis, vagina or ass.

So I vote "YES" and I don't take that as any kind of censorship (and I am not requesting the ban of people who has "broken the rule" when the rule didn't exist). I take that as a matter of very basic respect for the other people here.

Yes, this is simply a forum... and yet we are all here to learn... and it is quite impossible to do it here if there is no respect for the other people. Needless to say that the "Diversity in sexual orientation" thread is a perfect example of a thread that became terrible due to lack of respect.

Lunsola
06-24-2013, 07:08 PM
I voted yes for several reasons.

#1: All these anti-gay people are already pretty restricted about what they can say. They have to resort to writing between the lines to express their hate, it's basically inefficient for them to post here. There are many forums that allow this kind of talk that they can join up with and feed on the hate of other members, a perfect ouroboros.

#2: The suicide rates for LBGT people especially T are higher. Honestly if I didn't have goals in life I would have probably already killed myself. It's so demoralizing to listen to these people go on and on trying to dehumanize people for being different. I just hate to think that there's some kid or young person out there who's an alchemist reading this forum as a lurker and gets into a self hating mode from reading this stuff while in a black stage. Amplifying negative feelings is never a good thing and can lead to tragedy.

#3: There's no justification. They have no proof we've done anything wrong. The only thing they have to back them up is culture and religion which are both bullshit.

#4: It's never going to end and nothing good can come of it. Haters are going to hate, they can't stop. It's like a sickness that owns them. Also I can't let it go when someone posts homophobia, I have to tell them it's wrong. I won't let there be a negative only voice on the subject for a community I'm in. Fighting the good fight is a great cause but is also exhausting, this isn't why I come to alchemy forums.

#5: We can finally talk about sexual orientation and gender identity without having to worry about a flame war starting up. This most recently thread wasn't necessarily a typical flame/hate war but let's not kid ourselves, that's how many felt. For once it would be amazing to be able to speak freely without having to worry about some hater coming to the forum to shame those who are simply different. So basically we would have more freedom to express ourselves without fear/annoyance of coming under attack.

Dendritic Xylem
06-26-2013, 03:20 AM
I voted yes because I am against hate speech based on skin color, nationality, or sexual orientation. These are things I don't believe can be controlled, and therefore it is blind intolerance that leads to persucution based on these notions.

I don't mind people talking bad about systems of belief and government/economics. Yep...fuck the vatican.

Goldlion973
06-26-2013, 03:22 PM
.lol. Since when does, ''racism'' extend toward Catholics?

Down with censorship, its stifling this feigned era of liberalism. Talking about things expands ideas and makes room for change. Not talking does nothing. Recall having a debate with someone about his being South American and being proud of it, as a "state" that fought to keep its Independence and a rather nasty trade in human beings that pride comes to a contradiction and often misunderstandings but there you go.

It is odd that so many negative things are attached to the term and colour black in these countries, regarding polarity and electricity its hardly a bad thing but its something entrenched in western culture and perpetuated by the media and educational establishment, par example the distinct lack of history given on Black countries and cultures... but yeah, given that Al-Khem-y is a reference to the shade and nation the science is born from such things are often surprising, distasteful ignorance is in the end damaging to all involved.

Lunsola
06-26-2013, 03:58 PM
I really get the no censorship thing and I would love to feel the same way but I just don't. We can still discuss homosexuality and racism. In fact, I would probably be a lot more open about my life if hate speech was banned in general here. The hate talk just doesn't add anything productive. Calling someone else inferior doesn't add a new view or contribute what I would call worthwhile, it just breeds bad feelings between people.

LostGnosticOccultum
06-27-2013, 01:06 AM
I don't believe a view should be banned, as long as it isn't a personal attack/threat to one's life.
I agree.

Also, I'd like to expand this to, attacking the GLBT community; I may be a man who finds only women sexually attractive but I do not hate or oppose those who choose this way of life its their right through the gracious gift of GOD called FREE-WILL. I would also like to say that I am a white conservative christian (well my religious beliefs are quite unique lol). Why did I mention my race? Simple because I was stating the dynamic of the full topic, I believe that any form or Racism should be banned however sexual view should not be punished until an individual "attacks" the GLBT individual/community. It is a form of aggravated prejudical attack and is cyber bullying which is illegal in America and should not be tolerated beyond the individual personal beliefs if kept to him or her self.



the view is allowed but not saying it... kind of an unwritten law. So in a sense such views are banned here in Europe at least. Not banned by law but by general consent and in all public domains such as work, school etc.
I thought this is how it works here?

iIf we all just follow them "Unwritten law... of general consent," we wouldn't have to even discus this issue.

In addition these "flame wars" on sexual orientation are only started when a GLBT individual flaunts his or her sexuality. This flaunting is what causes those prejudice bigots to attack (YOU) the GLBT individual/community therefore I propose a general contract of sensible logic and common courtesy as to simply keep these views private and to not discus them in the open otherwise YOU open yourself to these sort of attacks.

Awani
06-27-2013, 01:09 AM
In addition these "flame wars" on sexual orientation are only started when a GLBT individual flaunts his or her sexuality.

I disagree. The responsibility lies with the attacker. I don't drink alcohol. I loath it. I've said this many times. I flaunt it. If a drunkard attacks me here on the forum for these views calling me a self-righteous bastard he will be banned. But if he engages in serious debate he will not. Naturally if I call a drinker here on the forum a fucking alcoholic scumbag then I ban myself. So it goes both ways.

Like the rules state: respect for each other!

:cool:

LostGnosticOccultum
06-27-2013, 01:17 AM
I disagree. The responsibility lies with the attacker. I don't drink alcohol. I loath it. I've said this many times. I flaunt it. If a drunkard attacks me here on the forum for these views calling me a self-righteous bastard he will be banned. But if he engages in serious debate he will not.

:cool:

this is true and I am not saying that it should be banned to speak of sexual orientation that is not "straight" I was simply making the point that MOST of the time these attacks are only brought up when the topic of sexual orientation is brought up therefore causing these idiots to come out of the wood works and attack. However I do agree with you that it is not the GLBT's fault that ALL of these flame wars are brought to the forum because sometimes people are just ass-holes and like to start shit which I have seen on numerous occasion in various formats. For example; an individual makes comment on a thread and a bigot sees this post yet does not agree with the point of view, he or she recalls that the individual is GLBT and comments in something like "No-one cares about your faggot opinions" thus creating a flame war on sexual orientation and derails a thread and causes a divide amongst the members of the forum. It's sad and this sort of behavior should not be tolerated

Awani
06-27-2013, 01:23 AM
In the Rules & Guidelines (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/announcement.php?f=2&a=3) it says:


The following is an absolute NO (either in posts or private messages):
- Threats
- Harrassments
- Personal attacks

* Keep discussions calm, focused and respect other peoples views.

So really we already have a ban on homophobic and racist views (as they are harassing + disrespectful) especially when they are directed at a fellow member. So this poll is meaningless.

The reason we (I and the mods) got a bit confused was because we have never had an attack on a group before (in this case homosexuals). Usually it is attacks person to person which everyone knows is not allowed.

But if someone says all gays are perverted, immoral, unnatural, sinful, disgusting people they aren't attacking an individual but a group... and the problem with this is that they are actually attacking individuals because here at the forums we have transgender, queer, gay, bi, straight and black, yellow, red and white people as well as both men and women.

I want free speech. But free speech require responsibility... and it does not include personal attacks... be it towards individuals or towards groups of individuals present here at the forum.

I hope this makes things more clear?

So I hereby sentence Thrival and Orbital to be banned for breaking the Rules & Guidelines. Let's hope they are the last homophobes that we get... and I hope every pro-free speech here agrees as well as all the people hurt by these homophobic attacks.

ANYONE that feels attacked personally in PM or in the THREADS let one of the moderators know.

There is a report button next to each post that you can click also.

Alchemy Forums tolerate all people, all genders and races... and all opinions but NOT (according to the rules) if they are trolling, flaming or attacking anyone!

:cool:

The threads infected with the homophobic flame war will be cleaned at a later date by one of the mods.

THREAD CLOSED