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Awani
06-27-2013, 02:17 AM
The Voynich manuscript, described as "the world's most mysterious manuscript", is a work carbon-dated to the early 15th century (1404–1438), possibly from northern Italy. It is named after the book dealer Wilfrid Voynich, who purchased it in 1912.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript

It was in the news the other day: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22975809

:cool:

Salazius
06-27-2013, 09:17 AM
He seems to be recently deciphered by Walter Grosse a french/portugese author.

Ghislain
06-27-2013, 09:54 AM
Here is a link to a site discussing Walter Grosse's Theories (http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2012/01/28/first-voynich-theory-of-2012)

Going by the carbon dating placing the books origin in the 15th century, below are some of the
Alchemists that lived during that period.


• Likely Candidates

Nicolas Flamel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Flamel)(1330–1418)

Gilles de Rais (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilles_de_Rais) (1401–1440)

• Bernard Trevisan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Trevisan)(Bernard of Treves) (1406–1490)

• Sir George Ripley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ripley_(Alchemist)) (1415–1490)

Thomas Norton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Norton_(alchemist)) (1433-1513)

Johannes Trithemius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Trithemius)(1462–1516)

Dr. Johann Georg Faust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Georg_Faust)(1480 (or 1466)-1540)

Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa von Nettesheim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Cornelius_Agrippa) (1486–1535)

• Paracelsus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus) (Philippus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim) (1493–1541)

As the books origin is placed in Italy I have marked the most likely of those Alchemists who had links
with or lived in Italy. Paracelsus obtained his degree at The University of Ferrara in northern Italy, however
he does date rather late in the 15th century.

Note that the parchment was dated to the 15th century but it may have been used many years later.

Just some food for thought.

Ghislain

Krisztian
06-27-2013, 02:15 PM
Note that the parchment was dated to the 15th century but it may have been used many years later.

That point seemed to have been "overlooked" by the documentary.

For me, this is yet another political and possibly financial ploy. There may have been someone who solved this riddle, so 'authorities' had to make this documentary to more confuse and once again present a topic that one distills no light from.

Salazius
06-28-2013, 08:50 AM
Some say Nicolas Flamel never exist.

Gilles de Rais was probably very busy, and unlikely to write such a masterpiece.

For the others ... I don't know.

Krisztian
06-28-2013, 02:22 PM
Some say Nicolas Flamel never exist. Gilles de Rais was probably very busy, and unlikely to write such a masterpiece. For the others ....

If it was a true brother of the Art, then he'll stay 'behind the scenes' so his identity remains forever hidden.

To decipher, one doesn't need sophisticated technology or many experts, we just need one who thinks like the genius who created the "Voynich".

Ghislain
06-28-2013, 07:49 PM
I don't think there is any doubt about the existence of Flamel, the doubt lies in his association with Alchemy.


To decipher, one doesn't need sophisticated technology or many experts, we just need one who thinks like the genius who created the "Voynich".


Krisztian you are assuming the "Voynich" is a work of genius, it may just be an elaborate prank. Who can tell until it is able to be deciphered.


jepou uijo lui fs fjtbo zepv cub cp vuuif fyjt ubo df pggmb nfmu ife pv cumjf tjoi jtb tt pdjbu jpox jui bm difnz.


It's not difficult to make a simple cipher as above and it wouldn't take a genius to make one a little more complicated.
Because something is well hidden does not make it genius.The value is in the content once deciphered.


Ghislain

Krisztian
06-29-2013, 03:45 PM
. . . you are assuming the "Voynich" is a work of genius, it may just be an elaborate prank. Who can tell until it is able to be deciphered. . . . Because something is well hidden does not make it genius.The value is in the content once deciphered.

Those accompanied lively paint-drawings aren't in need of deciphering, they appear to my eyes the experience of the artist with the herbs-in-description. Today some of that can be attributed to life under a microscope. But the manuscript for me is the language of herbs channeled. Academia will miss the point, that reality.

The other aspect is that to create such work, one needs to have great focus and perseverance, not to mention steady hands. How many people you know who could write by hand today without making a mistake? Whether its a prank or it's fraudulent that's a question of a modern mind that's secure only in decoding something from the point of view of the intellect.

Ghislain
06-29-2013, 06:26 PM
Krisztian, you asked...


How many people you know who could write by hand today without making a mistake?

That is a valid point, but we are talking of old texts here, of which there are many.

This sort of art has been lost to many...today we have the great brain drain TV, we have computers and word processors etc...etc...

Take a look at the Wiki article on Illuminated Manuscript (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminated_manuscript). There are some wonderful examples.

I do not deny that the "Voynich" is a beautiful work, I am just questioning its content.

Are we to asses the genius of a person by how aesthetically (http://www.reference.com/browse/Aesthetics) pleasing their works are?

If that is the case then, going by my handwriting and artistic talent I am a dunce :(

I don't know much about herbs, but I am sure there are many who do; and especially around that period of time.

All that said the "Voynich" may be the work of a genius.

Note that the experts working with the "Voynich" are having trouble identifying many of the plants drawn in the book.

Ghislain

Krisztian
06-29-2013, 09:34 PM
I do not deny that the "Voynich" is a beautiful work, I am just questioning its content. Are we to asses the genius of a person by how aesthetically (http://www.reference.com/browse/Aesthetics) pleasing their works are?

If that is the case then, going by my handwriting and artistic talent I am a dunce :( I don't know much about herbs, but I am sure there are many who do; and especially around that period of time. All that said the "Voynich" may be the work of a genius. Note that the experts working with the "Voynich" are having trouble identifying many of the plants drawn in the book.

You're not reading what was written in the post, Ghislain.

The author appears to have channeled the organic spirit of the plant kingdom with its unique language. That can also account for the seemingly perfect, continuous writing form; in other words, it's trance work, maybe a form of automatic writing. The drawings seem to depict the micro level world, that's fluid, being alive. The herbs aren't recognized, that's expected, its an entanglement with another world, sub reality, maybe even astral. So my point is, one needs to be a genius to overcome the limitations of the modern human intellect, and see the Voynich as possibly the language of Nature. The mathematical software they use can't decode such, they need artificial intelligence in-bedded in software if one is to explore it with technology alone or, an advanced consciousness, Nature-based, that can align with such "language".

The intellect alone is weak.

In any case, it is what it is.

Ghislain
06-29-2013, 10:18 PM
Thank you for your explanation Krisztian.

It is clearer to me what you were saying now.


Ghislain

III
07-01-2013, 04:27 PM
I must confess to a very puzzled curiosity concerning this unusual manuscript. I first saw detailed photographs of it perhaps 20 to 30 years ago. My first impression was that it was some sort of mis-information, a joke of some kind with the cartoon like drawings of little nude ladies, a whole set pregnant. The plants looked like botanical drawings of fantastical plants that don't come from still life drawings of real plants. Looked at as a whole it appears to have some sort of overall design, but damned if I see it.

I spent 30 years as a programmer. I typed approximately 200 new lines of code, approximately 50 characters long, 10,000 characters a day in the days before object editor programming environments typed the words for you. If it was to work as intended, like a complicated invocation; it had to be 100% perfection without a single mistake. I'll tell you, even with the programming editors of the period, one can't guarantee that all the characters will be correct much less their arrangement. Was each page redone over and over on new parchment until each page was perfection? Or if it was pure nonsense then there would never be a need to correct any mistake because each one is equally good nonsense.

"Take this line for example." It is correctly typed because we know the words. However, if it had come out "Kwbr wopl m6vw gmphjvw:", same number of letters sized to the words. It too is perfectly spelled for nonsense, no corrections needed.

So perhaps the only way that 200 pages of hand done manuscripts could be done in a single pass with zero mistakes is that no mistakes are possible when one is making it up, anything goes. However, it is such a costly endeavor in every sense of the words that it is hard to believe that it would be done as a joke or a mis-lead to save ones life from the Inquisition or something. I don't know. A unique and puzzling object. Maybe it is meaningful in a symbolic way or something. It's going to be somebody else to figure it out, not me. Good luck.

Krisztian
07-01-2013, 06:21 PM
I must confess to a very puzzled curiosity concerning this unusual manuscript. I first saw detailed photographs of it perhaps 20 to 30 years ago. My first impression was that it was some sort of mis-information, a joke of some kind with the cartoon like drawings of little nude ladies, a whole set pregnant. The plants looked like botanical drawings of fantastical plants that don't come from still life drawings of real plants. Looked at as a whole it appears to have some sort of overall design, but damned if I see it.

I spent 30 years as a programmer. I typed approximately 200 new lines of code, approximately 50 characters long, 10,000 characters a day in the days before object editor programming environments typed the words for you. If it was to work as intended, like a complicated invocation; it had to be 100% perfection without a single mistake. I'll tell you, even with the programming editors of the period, one can't guarantee that all the characters will be correct much less their arrangement. Was each page redone over and over on new parchment until each page was perfection? Or if it was pure nonsense then there would never be a need to correct any mistake because each one is equally good nonsense.

"Take this line for example." It is correctly typed because we know the words. However, if it had come out "Kwbr wopl m6vw gmphjvw:", same number of letters sized to the words. It too is perfectly spelled for nonsense, no corrections needed.

So perhaps the only way that 200 pages of hand done manuscripts could be done in a single pass with zero mistakes is that no mistakes are possible when one is making it up, anything goes. However, it is such a costly endeavor in every sense of the words that it is hard to believe that it would be done as a joke or a mis-lead to save ones life from the Inquisition or something. I don't know. A unique and puzzling object. Maybe it is meaningful in a symbolic way or something. It's going to be somebody else to figure it out, not me. Good luck.

If one channels the material, stays in trance, that's a feat possible to accomplish. It just requires a mind meant to hold focus for extended periods of time. For a traditionally-trained monk, that wouldn't be a stretch.

One could also consult with professor of music or someone like American John Houge who has the skill to unlock manuscripts with his method.

III
07-01-2013, 09:33 PM
If one channels the material, stays in trance, that's a feat possible to accomplish. It just requires a mind meant to hold focus for extended periods of time. For a traditionally-trained monk, that wouldn't be a stretch.

One could also consult with professor of music or someone like American John Houge who has the skill to unlock manuscripts with his method.

Hi Krisztian,

My daughter is an artist and Priestess. I hold attention unusually well and do plenty of trance work. All the Alchemical sequences have to be "perfect" to work. Even in trance not one mistake or re-do on even 1 place on one page out of 200 is highly improbable as there are twitches and fatigue that both occur even in trance. Sure, maybe it could be possible but it seems highly unlikely. If you limit it to only having to redo a page or 10 that is likely thousands of times more probable than producing the whole thing without a flaw. Of course that still doesn't tell us if it actually has human meaning.

Krisztian
02-05-2014, 09:52 PM
For those who're interested in Voynich, this research professes that the key to solving it is in a lost Aztec language of Nahuatl.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2551512/Has-Voynich-manuscript-DECODED-Mysterious-15th-century-text-written-lost-Aztec-language.html

Krisztian
02-25-2014, 01:06 AM
The research continues. Recent developments:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25105-mystery-voynich-manuscript-gets-preliminary-alphabet.html#.UwvhDCy9KK0

Linguistics professor Stephen Bax and his research, can be followed here: http://stephenbax.net/?page_id=11

III
02-25-2014, 02:54 AM
The research continues. Recent developments:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25105-mystery-voynich-manuscript-gets-preliminary-alphabet.html#.UwvhDCy9KK0

Linguistics professor Stephen Bax and his research, can be followed here: http://stephenbax.net/?page_id=11




This has got to be either a great joke or otherwise meaningful. It's an awful lot of work to produce this manuscript as something meaningless. Now it might be the worst shaggy dog story ever, delivered by time machine hundreds of years before it can be deciphered based on a technological development. That would be a good joke when one was on the scene x00 years later to deliver the punch line by telling how to decode it, ie as a 32 bit color bitmapped image after making a suitable bet with somebody whose leg you pull until it comes off. Now that could be a really fine joke. Unfortunately I don't have a time machine, yet... But if anybody does, you can tell us. We would get the joke.

Awani
02-25-2014, 04:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg1k-k5eAZ4

:cool:

Krisztian
03-25-2014, 08:07 PM
Coast to Coast AM recently had an interview with Stephen Bax (Prof. of Linguistics) regarding his findings. They also interviewed musician Stuart Davis who brings a good combination of mysticism to the interview.

Link found here, http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2014/03/23

Awani
11-06-2014, 03:49 PM
Pdf of the manuscript (http://www.forbiddenarchaeology.net/assets/Voynich-Manuscript.pdf)

:cool: