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Melchisedek
07-08-2013, 06:19 AM
"The Spiritual Method ~ complementation as spiritual writing"

Abstract: Spiritual techniques that build on the psychological principle of unconscious integration, such as active imagination, are criticized. A onesided flow of unconscious content to the conscious sphere leads to stagnation and alienation from the inner self. Light is shed on the current regress of Jungian psychology into esotericism. Complementation is defined as the complementary opposite of integration and as a toning down of dominant consciousness. A spiritual technique that builds on complementation is presented. It deviates from historical techniques, but has affinities with the medieval form of contemplation of inner images. While retaining stillness, focus of inner feeling and sensation is sought, while omitting the active involvement with fantasy material.

Keywords: spiritual technique, complementation, spiritual writing, integration, contemplation, active imagination, complementative imagination, self, C.G. Jung, Archetypal Psychology.

Read the article here:
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/spiritualmethod.htm

Mats Winther

Melchisedek
07-10-2013, 06:02 AM
In my article 'The Complementarian Self' I argue that alchemy's central theme, namely 'circular distillation', really signifies a process of complementation, that is, a process that complements the integration of unconscious contents.
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/compself.htm

To Carl Jung, however, all symbols are connected with integration. The 'scintilla' (divine spark), too, is one of the many symbols of unconscious archetypal contents that are ripe for integration with consciousness, thus leading to the expansion of consciousness. However, it must be said to his advantage that his book Mysterium Coniunctionis isn't overladen with a Jungian interpretative effort, unlike Edinger's hideous books. Jung doesn't claim to understand these symbols to the full; neither do I.

To Jung, alchemical laboratory work is merely a matter of projection of unconscious archetypes, which means that the activity, as such, is essentially meaningless. Thus, he views medieval alchemy as a form of proto-psychology, that is, a Jungian psychology in the making. However, I am certainly not out to repudiate everything that he wrote on alchemy.

Jung also makes a commentary to Chinese alchemical meditation, in Wilhelm's book "The Secret of the Golden Flower". He has been criticized for this commentary. The charge is that he subjects the text to psychologization.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/joap/2009/00000054/00000004/art00004

The symbol of the scintilla resonates with me. I discuss it in below article. The 'forest star' (the little starlike flower that grows in the dark forest) is likened to the scintilla hidden in matter. The spiritual technique of "complementative imagination" (as I term it) is also discussed. It is a spiritual method which radically deviates from active imagination and the integration of unconscious contents.
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/spiritualmethod.htm

It is possible to interpret alchemical "laboratory work" as a method of "complementative imagination". Writing and painting could be viewed as a form of laboratory work, too. That is, it is circular distillation, which I have tentatively identified with complementation. But it requires that one abandons all esthetical and intellectual requirements.

Mats Winther

Jerry
07-11-2013, 01:00 AM
A onesided flow of unconscious content to the conscious sphere leads to stagnation and alienation from the inner self.

Thank you for this well written paper. It’s always a pleasure to read a paper that includes references and notes for clarification. I do have some reservations and comments on the current concepts and theories of consciousness. Please forgive my ignorance of current psychological terminology as it wasn’t my major.

I think the term “conscious sphere” is used improperly as it implies some sort of circular aspect to consciousness, when in fact, it is not spherical at all but consists of various data storage structures none of which are truly spherical as in globe or orb. A better word might be realm although one could consider “self” as being a sphere which contain various structures inside if it. There is no “inner self” only self with a lot of data.

I’m not sure how you have determined that that “unconsciousness content” is something that is anything but one-sided. Your current memories as well as those of your past lives, current and past personalities, and the processes by which they are accessed are all unconscious content and unconscious processes only because you are unaware of it. Your current memory is also probably unconscious until you think about it.

You can only recall data (“unconsciousness content”) that is already written, not rewrite the files. It’s a two way street but you can’t alter the data which means it is a one way flow. It‘s like looking for a book in the library. You either find it or you don’t. If you don’t find it, you refine the search parameters. One search process stops and another one begins. The information derived from the first search is stored in your current memory. If unsuccessful, it takes that information and “self” creates a set of new search parameters. When “self” is satisfied, the search stops. If “self” is not happy with the result, the search gets modified and continues behind the scenes (unconsciousnessly) or the search continues with some form of conflict issues. Since there are many different places data is stored in “self” and the data is fixed and cannot be rewritten, many processes are search, find and retrieve. There is no “inner self” as a separate disguised entity. Everything is “you” and only you. You, I, and the other guy all have the same essential consciousness. What makes us different is the data, how much of it we can access, how it is incorporated into our consciousness, and what we decided to do with it.

Jung was just another paper asshole who convinced himself and others that he came up with the answers to alchemy by creating his own definitions to the substances and processes and then creating his own explanations. This is common with internet cults today. You would know this if you studied and analyzed the writings of the adepts.

Melchisedek
07-11-2013, 04:10 AM
Jerry, thanks for reading my paper. You should really pick up a primer on Jungian psychology, since you must know the concepts to be able to discuss these things. Jung wasn't an "asshole". He is responsible for the intellectual renascence of alchemy, and he was enormously knowledgeable in the field.
/Mats

Ghislain
07-11-2013, 06:28 AM
On TV last night was a program by the Horizon Crew where scientist Michael Mosely explored the latest
theories on how our personalities are created – and whether they can be changed.

Below are a some reviews on the program.

Telegraph review (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/10172168/Horizon-The-Truth-About-Personality-BBC-Two-review.html)

Metro review (http://metro.co.uk/2013/07/11/horizon-the-truth-about-personality-revealed-a-reborn-michael-mosley-3877593/)

Michael Mosely talking about the program in the Radio Times (http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-07-10/michael-mosley-tells-rosie-millard-how-to-be-happy)

For those that can use it HERE (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b036ypxw/Horizon_20122013_The_Truth_About_Personality/) is the program on BBC Iplayer.

In summary what Mosely did in the program was to sit at the computer and, given a screen of faces, pick out
and click on the happy faces after which the screen changed and he repeated the procedure. He did this for
five minutes a day for eight weeks.

Along with the facial program he meditated for ten minutes a day.

His conclusion was that it had a good effect and scientific scanning of his brain before and after showed a
dramatic change.

Perhaps moving our minds into an optimistic state is the gold we are looking for in Alchemy.

Ghislain

Krisztian
07-11-2013, 02:14 PM
. . . . moving our minds into an optimistic state is the gold we are looking for in Alchemy.

How true, indeed. Thanks.


Jung wasn't an "asshole". He is responsible for the intellectual renascence of alchemy, and he was enormously knowledgeable in the field.

I also dedicated a great deal of professional and leisure time studying Jung. Perhaps his personal life didn't exactly reflect that of a man transcending his animalistic nature, either way, contribution to the analytical community is undeniable. Jungians in general however do reject physical alchemy, don't believe it's real. For me, associating Jung with that of the true tradition of alchemy is a misguided invention.

z0 K
07-11-2013, 03:23 PM
Jerry, thanks for reading my paper. You should really pick up a primer on Jungian psychology, since you must know the concepts to be able to discuss these things. Jung wasn't an "asshole". He is responsible for the intellectual renascence of alchemy, and he was enormously knowledgeable in the field.
/Mats

I’ve read your paper as well and it is very interesting in that you have attempted to critique Jung’s teachings concerning the connection between alchemy and psychology. Your position is a sound one concerning the academic approach. However your position concerning Spiritual Methods leans more toward well known generic mental gymnastics and less so into Alchemical Circulation praxis.

I agree with Jerry in that we, at any given moment, are self integrating information systems. There is an infinite amount of information in the Universe. How one retrieves the data makes the difference between alchemy and academia. The Universe data “files” are stored in the Morphogenic field according to physicist Rupert Sheldrake.

Jung became interested in Alchemy because of the work of his colleague Herbert Silberer. Both were students of Freud.

“Though he had read Dr. Herbert Silberer’s 1914 book on psychology and alchemy, PROBLEMS OF MYSTICISM AND ITS SYMBOLISM (later re-titled, HIDDEN SYMBOLISM IN ALCHEMY AND THE OCCULT ARTS), he dismissed alchemy as “rather silly.” Only later did he write, “Light on the nature of alchemy began to come to me only after I had read the text of the GOLDEN FLOWER, that specimen of Chinese alchemy which Richard Wilhelm sent to me in 1928. I was stirred by the desire to become more closely acquainted with the alchemical texts. I commissioned a Munich bookseller to notify me of any alchemical books that might fall into his hands.”

“Two years prior, in 1926, Jung had a dream where he was an alchemist living in the 1600s engaged in the magnum opus or great work of alchemy. Jung believed the dream indicated alchemy was the link connecting ancient Gnosticism with modern psychology. Through the dream his role in reviving this link became apparent to him.

“Though he may have dismissed alchemy as “rather silly” on first exposure to it through Silberer’s landmark work, Jung was nonetheless greatly influenced by Silberer’s revelation that alchemy was really the pursuit of spiritual evolution and fulfillment. Silberer gave credit to A.E. Hitchcock for first suggesting this in, REMARKS UPON ALCHEMY AND THE ALCHEMISTS, published in 1857. Hitchcock, was a Major General in the U.S. Army, a philosopher soldier. He amassed a large collection of original alchemical manuscripts. Perhaps because he was a professional soldier and not an academic nor scientist REMARKS UPON ALCHEMY AND THE ALCHEMISTS was overlooked by the scientific and academic communities at the time, but it had a following among occultists.

“Silberer was a Viennese psychiatrist psychoanalyst involved with the circle of pioneers in the field of psychology surrounding Sigmund Freud, including Carl Jung and Alfred Adler. So through the publication of PROBLEMS OF MYSTICISM AND ITS SYMBOLS, alchemy though long dismissed as foolish, again came to the attention of professionals and academics. Sadly when Silberer presented a copy to Freud he was severely criticized. He became despondent and hung himself. Had he not received such a harsh response from his mentor Freud no doubt he would have pursued the subject in greater detail many years before Jung became engrossed with it. Jung learned from the tragic fate of Silberer and braced himself for rejection from Freud when Jung published his own theories on psychoanalysis and psychology. Freud, upon reading Jung’s published theories severely criticized him also.”
[From, “Better Living Through Alchemy:” www.alchemylife.org/Pages/bltav1_wpf/bltav1_wpf.html#_Toc305744883 ]

Alas Jung did not get it right with the Taoist alchemy circulation (Secret of the Golden Flower) praxis either. What he did come up with concerning the scientific approach to psychology was and is very useful. However the paradigm of the Alchemists concerning Philosophical operations is far more integrated. Understanding the Nature of the Laboratory work is essential to Alchemical Gnosis.

Melchisedek
07-11-2013, 04:12 PM
I’ve read your paper as well and it is very interesting in that you have attempted to critique Jung’s teachings concerning the connection between alchemy and psychology. Your position is a sound one concerning the academic approach. However your position concerning Spiritual Methods leans more toward well known generic mental gymnastics and less so into Alchemical Circulation praxis...

I don't know why you think it's mental gymnastics. I think it is collecting the scintillae. After all, it is done in connection with a creative activity, such as writing. A notorious problem is that symbols are sometimes taken too concretely, and what goes on in the mind doesn't attract much interest. As I write in the article:

However, the Gnostics understood the myth a little too concretely, a mistake that made them inept for this world.

"According to Epiphanius the Borborians based their teachings on the idea that the divine light-spark exists not only in men and women, but in all living things, vegetables, plants, fruits, cereals, fish, serpents and beasts of every kind. The Borborian gnostic was required to collect these scattered soul-fragments and partake of them as a sacrament, for in this manner the plant or animal soul became absorbed into his own. They believed the gnostic was doing a kindness to the plants and animals, for by collecting their spiritual substance, he would in the end transmit it, along with his own, to the heavenly world.
[...] In the gnostic Gospel of Eve, fragments of which are preserved by Epiphanius, it is related how the voice of a mighty being declared, 'I am dispersed in all things, and in gathering me you gather yourself'. The Borborians took this to mean not only the soul-stuff in plants and animals, but in semen and menstrual blood as well" (Walker, 1983, p.129).

Thus, they resolved to eat any kind of revolting substance, a practice which earned them the name Borborians or 'filthy ones' (Cf. p.157). In this self-punitive way they surrendered themselves to God and contributed to the liberation of other creatures, to boot. This was their belief, anyway. In a less naïve interpretation, to 'gather yourself' means to collect yourself.

So this should serve as a warning for alchemists. Don't think too concretely. It is primitive and childish to project the spiritual truth wholly into matter. After all, alchemy's goal is to extract the spiritual substance (Sol) from gross matter. Thus, one should beware of doing the opposite, as the Borborians did. The spirit was so totally projected into matter, so they believed that if they ate any kind of filth, they would acquire the spirit.

Mats Winther

Krisztian
07-11-2013, 05:29 PM
I don't know why you think it's mental gymnastics. I think it is collecting the scintillae. After all, it is done in connection with a creative activity, such as writing. A notorious problem is that symbols are sometimes taken too concretely, and what goes on in the mind doesn't attract much interest. . . .

I think what you wrote has it's place, I've also read it. Good work.

We need also this type of sharing on this Forum.


So this should serve as a warning for alchemists. Don't think too concretely. It is primitive and childish to project the spiritual truth wholly into matter. . . .

I know he's frowned upon by academics, but that statement above, could have been written by Adam McLean himself. That's neither here nor there, but figured to mention to say that this has bothered others as well. It's a modern approach, concept, to have these psychological projections upon alchemy, that's what historians say.

I must also say that I liked what the other two comrades, z0 K and Jerry, had to say to critique.

solomon levi
07-11-2013, 05:33 PM
I have been for complementarity for a while now. For ex, people often know "As above so below", but leave off the full teaching, "as below so above"
If both directions are not seen, you have a partial path/method, that will reap some results, but not as effectively. For ex, you could have people
waiting for a blessing from above, or you could have people doing something below to attract the blessing from above...

solomon levi
07-11-2013, 05:39 PM
I was noticing about circulation yesterday, i guess i'll post it here... part of the difficulty in reading alchemical works is knowing what part of the path
is being described, and with circulation this is near impossible. I mean, let's agree there are 7 levels.... but there are 7 stages in each level... holographic/fractal/exponential...
the fourth can undergo circulation and become the fifth, or may still seem like a higher third... it's really relative to one's perception, center of gravity. It's all just one thing, after all.

Jerry
07-12-2013, 12:32 AM
J. Jung wasn't an "asshole". He is responsible for the intellectual renascence of alchemy, and he was enormously knowledgeable in the field. /

I’m sorry you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Jung wasn’t your typical asshole but just a “paper asshole” who didn’t know the difference between shit and Shinola.
Marginal Note: Shinola was a brand of shoe polish, commonly dark coloured. But that’s not important right now.

The term “paper asshole has different meanings:

1The gummed reinforcements for three hole paper that fits into a three ringed notebook, used when one rips or tears an asshole (the original hole in the paper).

2.The person who works everything out on paper but the ideas don’t work out as planned in practice.

Jung utilized poor logic and reasoning skills. He started with a conclusion, and then found the data he wanted to support it. This is a common error today which is why people drink various metallic tinctures thinking it is some form of universal panacea.

Can you tell me how one gets the Blood of the Green Lion from the Blood of the Red Lion? I recall something about a guy in New Zealand (?) that claimed he got the Green Lion from heating Lead to redness over a fire.

z0 K
07-12-2013, 03:19 AM
Melchisedek:
I don't know why you think it's mental gymnastics. I think it is collecting the scintillae. After all, it is done in connection with a creative activity, such as writing. A notorious problem is that symbols are sometimes taken too concretely, and what goes on in the mind doesn't attract much interest. As I write in the article:

I commend you for presenting your work here exposing it to critical assessment. My reply is meant in an effort to distinguish the differing paradigms of academia and alchemy.
It’s mental gymnastics because you imagine the scintillae. Collecting the scintillae is the goal of the work carried out in your lab.


So this should serve as a warning for alchemists. Don't think too concretely. It is primitive and childish to project the spiritual truth wholly into matter. After all, alchemy's goal is to extract the spiritual substance (Sol) from gross matter. Thus, one should beware of doing the opposite, as the Borborians did. The spirit was so totally projected into matter, so they believed that if they ate any kind of filth, they would acquire the spirit.


Those Borborians must have been a funky bunch of hereticts.:) There are so many other far more interesting brands of Gnosticism.
The goal of alchemy is not to extract but to substantiate.

Melchisedek
07-12-2013, 04:47 AM
I commend you for presenting your work here exposing it to critical assessment. My reply is meant in an effort to distinguish the differing paradigms of academia and alchemy.
It’s mental gymnastics because you imagine the scintillae. Collecting the scintillae is the goal of the work carried out in your lab.


(Evidently, there is urgent need for better psychological understanding in this group.)
But then you rule out that the scintilla is something spiritual. If the scintilla is spiritual rather than material, then it can emerge out of a mental picture, since the scintilla is an objective and real thing, in spiritual form. In fact, you can perform the alchemical operations wholly in your mind, or with recourse to other artful media other than physical chemistry--and it has the same effect. It is what goes on in the mind that matters, because it is the mind that registers the spirit. If you think that you are not using your mind when you are doing laboratory work, then you are wrong. You are having a psychological experience, which includes projections on material substances.

The goal of alchemy is first to make the realization that the world is permeated with the divine scintillae. The next step is the lengthy process of drawing out the scintillae, the spiritual gold, from gross matter. It means that it is no longer being projected onto matter, which is why alchemists speak about the "desiccation of the sea" and the stage of dryness and nigredo. When the projections are withdrawn, worldly engagement is experienced as meaningless, which is why alchemists say that the work results in melancholia. The more of the spirit that you draw out of matter, the more grey and meaningless it appears. At this stage the opus is performed wholly in the mind. That's why alchemists say that they devote themselves to 'mediatio' and prayer during the nigredo stage. In the end, physical laboratory work has become meaningless, too.

What has been extracted seems to have a vitalizing quality, as it has the capacity to reanimate matter. The spiritual tincture, the lapis, etc., is utilized to revitalize the relation with the world, which is why the stage of nigredo is eventually overcome. It is a property of the purified stone. It can transfer its own properties onto dull matter, and turn it into gold, which makes the world come alive again. It means that one may at one stage leave the sea of desiccation. But people who continue projecting spiritual meaning on the substances in laboratory work, are unable to reach the stage of dryness, which is a mental condition. Those who think that it is a condition of chemical compounds in the flask are plainly wrong.

The nigredo is by most alchemists regarded as absolutely central. The meditative practice of gathering the scintillae must continue during the stage of nigredo, until utter desiccation is reached. At this stage the artifex may be saved by the very substance that he has gathered. I don't understand what it means. I do understand the nigredo and its meaning in my personal life, but I don't know what the later reanimated stages mean. It seems to point at an extraordinary spiritual mystery.

Mats Winther

Ilos
07-12-2013, 09:57 AM
This is a good video, it is one of a few parts but its enough to get the idea of C. Jungs Platonism and and Alchemy explained Psychologically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Raf-ZvhlQ&list=PLAC68A33ABC5F491D&index=3

Melchisedek
07-12-2013, 04:16 PM
I will say something about the terms of psychology. The scintilla is defined as the divine spiritual substance hidden in matter. It's an apt definition, in my view, because I believe in the metaphysical reality of the spirit.

The alchemical process as projection of archetypes and of unconscious nature is a view forwarded by Carl Jung in his books on the subject. The unconscious, of course, is more than instinct. I have several times dreamt about Mercurius, for instance. The unconscious often portrays spiritual themes that are very remote from bodily instincts. Carl Jung views the spirit Mercurius as 'the god of the unconscious'.

The archetype is defined as an hereditary counterpart to instinct. Whereas instincts are bodily, the archetype occupies the other end of the spectrum, that is, it's a conceptual theme, of some sort. However, in the unconscious, these motives take on a life of their own, as it were. The witch, for instance, is a very important archetype that occurs in many fairytales. It can appear in a dream and speak to you. So the archetype is an ideational theme, occurring throughout the ages, that appears spontaneously in dreams and elsewhere, and often in the role of a living spirit.

In theory, the archetype is an unconscious predisposition to form ideas along lines of certain mythologems. So it isn't a repressed unconscious content. It was in the unconscious from the beginning. Certain mythological notions, for instance, keep repeating themselves throughout the ages. The archetype may constellate, that it, acquire energy and emerge into consciousness, and even take possession of people. When the archetype constellates, it may take many different individual forms, depending on the conscious culture of the individual. Nevertheless, the underlying theme remains the same. The Self archetype, for instance, may take its guise from Jesus or the Buddha, or whomever. But the Self is always pointing more or less in the same direction, that is, it conveys the same meaning and directs personality towards wholeness.

M. Winther

Jerry
07-12-2013, 07:29 PM
(Evidently, there is urgent need for better psychological understanding in this group.)


I think you misunderstand. People are not interested in being indoctrinated into another cult. Jung made up his own definitions for the terms of the alchemists and made them fit his conclusion. This you would understand if you would read and analyze the writings of the adepts instead of convincing yourself that Jung was correct.

Melancholy: The Great Disappointment resulting from Great Expectations.

Jerry
07-12-2013, 07:31 PM
The alchemical process as projection of archetypes and of unconscious nature is a view forwarded by Carl Jung in his books on the subject. The unconscious, of course, is more than instinct. I have several times dreamt about Mercurius, for instance. The unconscious often portrays spiritual themes that are very remote from bodily instincts. Carl Jung views the spirit Mercurius as 'the god of the unconscious'.

Unfortunately you know very little about what is meant by “projection” except Jung’s concepts. Mercurius needs to be understood within the context of specific processes. The ultimate Philosopher’s Mercury is Hermes aka the Wizard of Oz.

Keep dreaming

Melchisedek
07-13-2013, 05:31 AM
I think you misunderstand. People are not interested in being indoctrinated into another cult. Jung made up his own definitions for the terms of the alchemists and made them fit his conclusion. This you would understand if you would read and analyze the writings of the adepts instead of convincing yourself that Jung was correct.

Melancholy: The Great Disappointment resulting from Great Expectations.

It is a very strange thing to say, since I have directed a pertinent critique against Jung's view of alchemy. I have reinterpreted his view of 'circular distillation', and thereby I question Jung's view of the very goal of alchemy. I have in this recent article reinterpreted the scintilla, i.e. the alchemical gold. Moreover, I have delivered a biting critique of his metaphysical system, including synchronicity. I even undertook to criticize his most central concept, namely the Self.

You say that I have convinced myself "that Jung was correct". In fact, I have done the very opposite. Nobody with a sound mind can accuse me of peddling a Jung cult. But one shouldn't make the mistake of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Jung and M-L von Franz are immensely valuable authors.

The alchemical notion of melancholia (nigredo, tenebrositas) had nothing to do with disappointment resulting from great expectations. It was a condition that they were well prepared for. Some alchemists argued that the Opus begins at this point. So, if you trivialize the stage of melancholia, it means that you haven't even started out on the alchemical path.

M. Winther

z0 K
07-13-2013, 03:36 PM
Melchisedek:
(Evidently, there is urgent need for better psychological understanding in this group.)
But then you rule out that the scintilla is something spiritual. If the scintilla is spiritual rather than material, then it can emerge out of a mental picture, since the scintilla is an objective and real thing, in spiritual form.

You seem to understand gnosticism and have decided to lump alchemy with it in your imagination.
When did anyone here inform you they had ruled out scintillae being something spiritual?

Melchisedek:
In fact, you can perform the alchemical operations wholly in your mind

And that is mental gymnastics. And when you feel good about it, it is a kind of mental masturbation.

Melchisedek:
or with recourse to other artful media other than physical chemistry--and it has the same effect. It is what goes on in the mind that matters, because it is the mind that registers the spirit.

Is "Physical chemistry" what you understand to be lab alchemy? If so that is unfortunate. I guess you do not know you have your own laboratory. It's right there amidst all the scintillae your are trying to collect.

Melchisedek:
If you think that you are not using your mind when you are doing laboratory work, then you are wrong. You are having a psychological experience, which includes projections on material substances.

And what else would I use as an alternate to my mind when I am doing laboratory work? You are right I do project the elements upon the matter. Do you know what that means alchemically and not psychologically?

Melchisedek:
The goal of alchemy is first to make the realization that the world is permeated with the divine scintillae. The next step is the lengthy process of drawing out the scintillae, the spiritual gold, from gross matter.

It's good to have goals. What is your resource for this information? I'm hoping you can cite a classical alchemical treatise.

Melchisedek:
... which is why alchemists speak about the "desiccation of the sea" and the stage of dryness and nigredo.

I cannot agree with you on that. Psychology is what happens to you in the negredo and it can desiccate your information stream until the babble makes you want to kill yourself. This is what the oroborus is all about: The only way out is to stop the circular desiccation of nigredo: quit biting your tail (or ass) and let go of the closed loop psychobabble.

Melchisedek:
The more of the spirit that you draw out of matter, the more grey and meaningless it appears. At this stage the opus is performed wholly in the mind.

Yes. Mental gymnastics cause the mind to wander into meaningless error without the laboratory check valve. Because you work it all out in your mind only, the results are phanstatical, full of meaning and no substantiation, which is Pointless.

Melchisedek:
In the end, physical laboratory work has become meaningless, too.

In the end the laboratory work is what transmutes you.

Melchisedek:
But people who continue projecting spiritual meaning on the substances in laboratory work, are unable to reach the stage of dryness, which is a mental condition. Those who think that it is a condition of chemical compounds in the flask are plainly wrong.

I have to wonder what you mean by "spiritual" in the above remark.
Until you begin to work in your own laboratory you really only have illusions about what is going on in a Philosophical reaction.

Melchisedek:
The nigredo is by most alchemists regarded as absolutely central.

It's only central to the beginning of the laboratory work and has nothing to do with the "psychology" of negredo that you describe. The debilitating psychological effects are affects of Information System data flow looping and desiccation. The only way out is to power down: reboot IS flow. Or just simply say "phucket" and let go.

Melchisedek:
I don't understand what it means. I do understand the nigredo and its meaning in my personal life, but I don't know what the later reanimated stages mean. It seems to point at an extraordinary spiritual mystery.

Transcendent Transmutation...

Melchisedek
07-13-2013, 04:07 PM
This forum is "Spiritual Alchemy", not vulgar materialistic and ritualistic alchemy. Thus, there should be a preparedness for a spiritual interpretation of alchemy, void of flasks and Bunsen burners.

M. Winther

zoas23
07-13-2013, 08:32 PM
I think you misunderstand. People are not interested in being indoctrinated into another cult. Jung made up his own definitions for the terms of the alchemists and made them fit his conclusion. This you would understand if you would read and analyze the writings of the adepts instead of convincing yourself that Jung was correct.

I don't like Jung either...

I mostly agree with your general view about the ideas that Jung had.
As for the person, I think Jung had the "right" to say that his involvement with Nazism was something quite impossible to avoid during the Nazi era of Germany.... but when you find that by 1960 he was writing an enthusiast prologue to a book by Miguel Serrano, one of the most rabid fanatics of the "Hitlerian Occultism"... then it's hard to say that he was interested in staying away from the Nazi ideals.

Having said such thing.... I really don't think at all that the branch of Psychology that Jung created is related to Nazism (I know a lot of Jungians, none of them has any kind of interest in Nazism)... And I think it's true that he invented the meaning of a lot of typical alchemical expressions and created a philosophy that has its base in his own inventions.... But that's not a cult; it's not even close to being a cult.

Melchisedek brought a paper he wrote about his own views on Jungian psychology... I am not interested in Jungian psychology, it is easy to find out that you are not interested in Jungian psychology either.... but I don't see the point of writing again and again that Jung was a "paper asshole"... Some other people of this forum can be interested in the subject... and probably the whole thing can be more enjoyable for everyone if those who deeply dislike Jung give the ones who do... the chance to have a thread about it without the need to waste a lot of time defending themselves against hostile criticism.

Jerry
07-13-2013, 11:26 PM
The alchemical notion of melancholia (nigredo, tenebrositas) had nothing to do with disappointment resulting from great expectations. It was a condition that they were well prepared for. Some alchemists argued that the Opus begins at this point. So, if you trivialize the stage of melancholia, it means that you haven't even started out on the alchemical path.

Thank you for your response. I think I know where the problem is. When I was born they were passing out brains, and I thought they said trains. I already had a [toy] train, so I never got into line.

But you did state:: “I will say something about the terms of psychology.” You put a different clown suit on Jung and then tell everybody it’s somebody else under the costume. You do have to start somewhere but you can’t run around in circles for your entire life chasing your tail.

The Opus starts with curiosity when you start questioning something like: How do I turn water into wine?
The insanity begins when you think you are God’s gift to mankind because you think you found the answer and another source of free energy.
The melancholy sets in when you find out this isn’t exactly what the adepts meant.
You then recreate yourself and become a new Alias. Then go start the gr8 Opus again, and again, and again. . . until you self destruct like ***.

There are physical processes in alchemy. The alchemists are making something like bubbles from the Soap of the Wises and their gold which commeth from the North, but you don’t understand these things because everything has to have a pseudo-psychological explanation and nothing is physical. The adepts were using flasks and Bunsen burners or whatever they had at the time. They didn’t have the luxury of ordering things from the internet, so they made what they needed. The results of their operations were considered philosophical or spiritual only because they didn’t know the science behind it. They had no adequate scientific terms to use because the science hadn’t yet advanced to that stage.

And more importantly, until recently almost every was a secret. I don’t think that you could walk into an apothecary in the 1600s, and ask how to make a cure for consumption, do you? You might get a smile or chuckle, or get thrown out on your arse. You don’t call the car dealer and ask them how to fix your car, do you? They will tell you to bring it in to their shop and they will look at it. They are not going to give you step by step instructions and let you take money out of their pocket.

There is a “spiritual” aspect to alchemy but you may be referring to the Angelical Stone where the consciousness is visible along with the unconscious processes to understand the flow of information. You may be able to commune with spirits or angels. The alchemists are physically making some nootropic substances. Unfortunately you confuse the cause and effect relationships.

solomon levi
07-14-2013, 06:07 PM
Melchisedek:
(Evidently, there is urgent need for better psychological understanding in this group.)
But then you rule out that the scintilla is something spiritual. If the scintilla is spiritual rather than material, then it can emerge out of a mental picture, since the scintilla is an objective and real thing, in spiritual form.

You seem to understand gnosticism and have decided to lump alchemy with it in your imagination.
When did anyone here inform you they had ruled out scintillae being something spiritual?

Melchisedek:
In fact, you can perform the alchemical operations wholly in your mind

And that is mental gymnastics. And when you feel good about it, it is a kind of mental masturbation.

Melchisedek:
or with recourse to other artful media other than physical chemistry--and it has the same effect. It is what goes on in the mind that matters, because it is the mind that registers the spirit.

Is "Physical chemistry" what you understand to be lab alchemy? If so that is unfortunate. I guess you do not know you have your own laboratory. It's right there amidst all the scintillae your are trying to collect.

Melchisedek:
If you think that you are not using your mind when you are doing laboratory work, then you are wrong. You are having a psychological experience, which includes projections on material substances.

And what else would I use as an alternate to my mind when I am doing laboratory work? You are right I do project the elements upon the matter. Do you know what that means alchemically and not psychologically?

Melchisedek:
The goal of alchemy is first to make the realization that the world is permeated with the divine scintillae. The next step is the lengthy process of drawing out the scintillae, the spiritual gold, from gross matter.

It's good to have goals. What is your resource for this information? I'm hoping you can cite a classical alchemical treatise.

Melchisedek:
... which is why alchemists speak about the "desiccation of the sea" and the stage of dryness and nigredo.

I cannot agree with you on that. Psychology is what happens to you in the negredo and it can desiccate your information stream until the babble makes you want to kill yourself. This is what the oroborus is all about: The only way out is to stop the circular desiccation of nigredo: quit biting your tail (or ass) and let go of the closed loop psychobabble.

Melchisedek:
The more of the spirit that you draw out of matter, the more grey and meaningless it appears. At this stage the opus is performed wholly in the mind.

Yes. Mental gymnastics cause the mind to wander into meaningless error without the laboratory check valve. Because you work it all out in your mind only, the results are phanstatical, full of meaning and no substantiation, which is Pointless.

Melchisedek:
In the end, physical laboratory work has become meaningless, too.

In the end the laboratory work is what transmutes you.

Melchisedek:
But people who continue projecting spiritual meaning on the substances in laboratory work, are unable to reach the stage of dryness, which is a mental condition. Those who think that it is a condition of chemical compounds in the flask are plainly wrong.

I have to wonder what you mean by "spiritual" in the above remark.
Until you begin to work in your own laboratory you really only have illusions about what is going on in a Philosophical reaction.

Melchisedek:
The nigredo is by most alchemists regarded as absolutely central.

It's only central to the beginning of the laboratory work and has nothing to do with the "psychology" of negredo that you describe. The debilitating psychological effects are affects of Information System data flow looping and desiccation. The only way out is to power down: reboot IS flow. Or just simply say "phucket" and let go.

Melchisedek:
I don't understand what it means. I do understand the nigredo and its meaning in my personal life, but I don't know what the later reanimated stages mean. It seems to point at an extraordinary spiritual mystery.

Transcendent Transmutation...


I don't know z0 K, aren't you being too materialistic?
Mental is a huge part of alchemy, corresponding to air element.
Your use of the terms "mental gymnastics" and "mental masturbation" tell me that you
don't understand that realm well at all. That realm pre-exists and "causes"/determines the physical...
the idea comes, THEN the labwork follows. He who works without ideas/inspiration from the muse/mental
is lost. The principle forces of alchemy are the sun and moon, moon corresponding with mens/mind/mental
(and more... mens/month/menstral/moon... but obviously the moon/mind reflects the light of the sun and these
produce the salt of the earth. It sounds like you are emphasizing salt/earth over moon and making moon insignificant.
It sounds biased. Alchemy is everything and applies to everything, mind, psychology, labwork... why be against
mental alchemy? You're using/dependant on mental alchemy to have your idea/belief/model of alchemy as physical. :)
There's no beating this... best to surrender. :) You can't exclude mental from alchemy or life as you know it.
Mental isn't all airy-fairy vain nothingness to an alchemist. The alchemists task is to make that volatile fixed...
the alchemists can manifest from the aethers by understanding this process of thought into mass.
In truth, mass isn't other than mind... these are "two" labels/manifestations of the One thing.
The mental idea and the physical manifestation are one thing magically separated by apparent time... time/saturn/initial subject.
You can hold a flask in your hand because someone had the mental thought/idea to make it, and after a time, it was made,
and the idea became physical. The idea can exist without the physical manifestation/flask, but the flask cannot exist
without the idea... so which is more significant? (if either must be)
Idea and form correspond to alchemical sulfur and mercury, as Plato and Aristotle and other Philosophers discussed
(it isn't called the Philosophers' stone for nothing. :) Alchemist is equivalent of philosopher... not an armchair philosopher,
but a philosopher by fire, but you cannot throw out philosophy!

z0 K
07-15-2013, 06:15 AM
There is a “spiritual” aspect to alchemy but you may be referring to the Angelical Stone where the consciousness is visible along with the unconscious processes to understand the flow of information. You may be able to commune with spirits or angels. The alchemists are physically making some nootropic substances.

The Angelicall Stone could be worth the effort for anyone inclined toward a Spiritual Method as a way to operate alchemically. Especially those interested in the adventures of John Dee and Edward Kelly. Quite revealing when the data field really opens up.

"Lastly, as touching the Angelicall Stone, it is so subtill, saith the aforesaid Author, that it can
neither be seene, felt, or weighed; but Tasted only. The voyce of Man (which bears some
proportion to these subtill properties,) comes short in comparison; Nay the Air it selfe is not
so penetrable, and yet (Oh mysterious wonder!) A Stone, that will lodge in the Fire to
Eternity without being prejudiced. It hath a Divine Power, Celestiall, and Invisible, above
the rest; and endowes the possessor with Divine Gifts. It affords the Apparition of Angells,
and gives a power of conversing with them, by Dreames and Revelations: nor dare any Evill
Spirit approach the place where it lodgeth. Because it is a Quintessence wherein there is no
corruptible Thing; and where the Elements are not corrupt, no Devill can stay or abide."
[Prolegomena, Elias Ashmole, 1652.]

Andro
07-18-2013, 09:07 PM
This forum is "Spiritual Alchemy", not vulgar materialistic and ritualistic alchemy.

I thought this would be an appropriate location to insert the following quote from Walter Russel, which I have used before (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3422-How-does-variation-exist&p=27967#post27967) (the most relevant bits are in bold):


Creation is not more, nor is it less than it has always been from the beginning.

[It] is an apparent integration in continuity of that which already exists in substance.

It is a periodic change of state of the One unchanging substance.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
De-creation is an apparent disintegration in continuity of apparently integrated things returned to that substance. It is dissolution.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spirit and Matter are the same substance.
---------------------------------------------------------
There are not two substances in the universe.
There cannot be two substances in the universe.
---------------------------------------------------------
There are not two of anything in the universe.

III
10-22-2013, 03:13 AM
A most interesting book, and instead of a free download, it is now 2 volumes at http://fisherkingpress.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&manufacturers_id=16

J. R. Haule is a Jungian therapist who realized the only way he was going to understand Tantric Alchemy was to undertake it. He may well have bridged the academic to spiritual mystical practice.

In any case, I consider myself to be successful Tantric Alchemist, I practice and teach a little when warranted. I found that if one wants to have anybody to play with one needs to be willing to teach it. I have found Tantric spiritual alchemy to be fully satisfactory for accelerating evolution to the nearly unbearable at times.

I have never done any intended to be alchemy lab work in this life that I know of. It has all taken place within the lab of our bodies and minds and am willing to work with a variety of consciousness changing items, including blue lotus, Damiana, cannabis. I can't see any reason or need to do any such lab work.

Here is his synopsis.




Tantra and Erotic Trance:
Volumes 1 & 2

Synopsis




Tantra and Erotic Trance is simultaneously a description of human sexuality and of mysticism in which vivid examples of each are used to illuminate the other. Religious traditions from Christian revivalism to Islam, Taoism, and Zen -- but with particular attention to Hinduism and Buddhism -- are employed to explore six areas of human sexuality.

Recent studies of sexual addiction and the potential spirituality of orgasm reveal our contemporary confusions and frustrations regarding sex. Accounts of sexual satisfaction, however, which delay and diminish the importance of orgasm point to a "vertical" (mystical) rather than "horizontal" (social contract) view of sex.
Once the vertical dimension of sex is revealed through withholding at the brink of orgasm, we are able to appreciate the spiritual possibilities of longing in such Western traditions as that of Courtly Love and the Oneida community. The Bengali tradition of "divine madness," however, which encompasses several centuries of refinement, has discovered that the longing which leads to madness may bring about a transformation in personality over the course of years and decades. A superior and God-centered organization of the self is achieved through "erotic trance," that is, any state of consciousness altered by sexual arousal and comprising physiological, emotional, and imaginal components. Those who pursue the way of longing emphasize the emotional component.
The way of longing proceeds towards mysticism along an unconscious course. Mystical traditions which deliberately employ scandalous practices, however, seek to achieve similar results in a conscious manner by opposing the "horizontal" rules of the social order. In seeking to "go beyond good and evil," they have discovered that the physiological "engine" of sexual arousal in erotic trance manifests as an unconscious surging forth of a power that is greater than the ego. This reveals a "ladder of mystical ascent" whose motive force is rooted in the human organism and which can be "mastered" through growing familiarity with body and psyche.
The antinomian heroes who pursue the way of scandal remain unconscious of the nature of that "soul energy" that surges forth, elevating erotic trance. The next rung on the ladder of sexual ascent involves becoming familiar with that internal force ("soul energy" or "eros") which the Indians have named kundalini and whose various manifestations describe a "subtle body" comprised of chakras. Whereas the ways of longing and scandal exploit the emotional component in erotic trance, the internal ladder of the subtle body requires mastery of the imaginal dimension of eros/kundalini.
Progress up the ladder of sexual ascent involves several reversals: from pursuit of the physiological release of orgasm to retaining and cultivating its tension; from passive acquiescence in the longing of erotic trance to actively courting a force greater than the ego; from being overwhelmed by emotion to controlling it through imaginal exercises; from following outwardly described exercises to learning a discipline whose rules are "internal." In the course of these developments, the reality of the empirical world is replaced by the greater reality and "objectivity" of an imaginal world. The final reversal involves recognizing that the imaginal world, too, is not ultimate. There is no object -- neither an empirical one nor an imaginal one -- that is fundamental. Rather everything is "empty." Even the ladder of ascent is a construction without ultimacy. Traditions which describe emptiness (e.g., Kashmiri Shaivism, Tibetan Buddhism) speak a language which reminds us of quantum mechanics and the physics of the "Big Bang." The world in which we live is real, but it is merely a way of looking at a larger, empty reality which is beyond all objectivity. In the final analysis all is consciousness: the empirical and mythic worlds are but pieces of cloth woven from threads of light that are consciousness itself. There is no cloth without the threads and no threads without the cloth.
Running though all five of the above areas of sexual/mystical consciousness is another theme -- that of the mutual influence of master upon disciple and of lover upon beloved. The Indians call it shaktipat. The transmission of states of erotic trance belongs to the natural mutuality of the human organism. The practices described above are all dependent upon and enhanced by shaktipat.
The final issue raised in Tantra and Erotic Tranceis how life goes on once an individual has learned to master erotic trance, participated in shaktipat, and attained to emptiness. One returns to everyday life to live it in an extraordinary manner. Each challenge that life presents -- and that might otherwise lead to confusion and defeat -- becomes an opportunity for spontaneous improvisation. Life is lived along a serpentine path where the empirical and the imaginal intersect. Each turn on that path evokes a spontaneous act of improvisation in which an imaginal reorientation is occasioned by a potential frustration or challenge. The highest pilgrimage may be made without leaving one's prayer rug. When the wandering monk, Saraha, finds a yogini making arrows before her hut, she asks the question that opens his heart to emptiness. Immediately he lays aside his robe, and they spend the rest of their lives wandering the intersection of the two worlds without ever leaving her hut.
http://www.jrhaule.net/ipetSynop.html

Awani
02-11-2014, 03:56 AM
I don't like Jung either...

I have not studied Jung enough to agree or disagree, but for me Jung has brought two very important points to the table (as a repeater or creator):

1. synchronicity
2. collective unconscious

These two are enough to give him an OK in my book. I wouldn't worry too much about Nazism. Many good people have been linked to Nazism... who knows for sure. I doubt it myself. Many cool people are linked to supporting Obama... and in 200 years he might very well be viewed as a Devil. I view him currently as one, but hey I am way ahead of the curve... ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC-pA81QxGs

:cool: