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Phoenix
01-07-2009, 04:46 PM
This is a Phoenix-thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=7) from the old site (http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/forum.htm) created by Galeidoscope.

Those who have advanced sufficiently far are well aware that Canseliet failed to comprehend the work of his proclaimed master Fulcanellil. At least they worked very differently. We know from the correspondence between Gifreda and Canseliet, that the latter from the beginning worked on G but later (about the time after second world war) suddenly changed his approach and instead started to work upon S. Is it not strange because Canseliet told us that Fulcanelli indeed had confirmed the true identity of the materia prima back in 1920. Thus G and not S. The reason for this change IMO is related to the extreme difficulty in obtaining a friable and starry regulus of G. However this is exactly what Pierre Dujols describes in his Chrysopée, however he does not give any particular instructions, besides the consideration of some external influences, in order to have this rare matter and the common mercury / universal solvent of Fulcanelli.

- Anyone who have attained a friable regulus of G? Feel free to respond in English or French.

GALEIDOSCOPE
Hi. I haven't worked with the Reguluses yet, but probably will do some things with antimony this year and next.
I'm not sure what your G is, but i have a guess. But what I understand of Fulcanelli appears to be the same
as Newton and Starkey, which we now have easy access to their lab notes from Newman, Principe, Betty Jo Dobbs...
PON has also given a pretty detailed account of this work.
So I guess I was wondering if you concur with those or if you're speaking of something else with G and S?
As I understand it, Stibnite is the Prima Materia.

We know Stibnite + Mars creates a starry regulus.
Then Newton added Venus to get the net which Fulcanelli mentions.
Then Diana is needed to amalgamate with Mercury...

These are all related by Fulcanelli in the Dwelling of the Philosophers.
I guess you know something I don't.
Here, I think Galeidoscope spoke of the Stibnit (S) and the Galena (G).
As it refers to the pseudo Dujols book that speaks of Galena (Chrysopée), I think Galeidoscope refers to work on the regulus of Galena with niter.

But who tells us that this is stibnit or galena which is the prima materia?
And if it sought another G? If you put a link with the M of Magnesia?
In his Dwellings of the philosophers Fulcanelli openly rejected Stibnite as being the true materia prima... The amalgam work you mention is very familiar to me, however one could still question if this is the true interpretation of Philalethes, certainly Fulcanelli worked in a completely different manner. Take for example the "doves of diana endowed in the arms of Venus and which none but a true philosopher ever saw" - is it really as simple as 2 parts of silver in order to form an alloy of antimony in order to realize the amalgam of common quicksilver? An idea which some people extracted from Alexander von Suchten which suggests this work (although not in context to the preparation of the ph stone.). Likewise "the steel of the sages", just common iron fillings? There are much more than meets the eye in these books I can promise you. I don't know if the books by Newman and Dobbs has done more good than bad, if people limit their view of WHAT IS POSSIBLE to the opinion of those people, I am afraid alchemy will remain a forgotten science forever. Let me take another example: Robert Boyle knew intimately Starkey for many many years and spoke with him from time to time almost everyday, also made joint experiments (ens veneris for example), at the same time Boyle pounded over and over again about the true identity of Philalethes. It does not make sense that Starkey were Philalethes.

It's good to work with antimony to become familiar with the practise but as our dear Basilius affirmed more than 400 years ago:

Many highly esteem the Signate Star of Antimony, and very many have endeavoured to prepare it, sparing no labour to attain the same. Which some have acquired with good success, others have lost all their labour and Cost, Many have assumed an Opinion, that this Star is the true Matter, whence the Stone of Philosophers may be made, induced hereunto, by this thought or Imagination, viz. because Nature herself hath signed it into a Star, therefore they could not choose but esteem of it, and by these Cogitations were led into the Way of Error, But I sincerely denounce, that it is nothing so. For these kind of Searchers erre from the Kings high-way, and kill themselves in clambering up Rocks and Cliffs, in which wild Goats inhabit, and Birds of Prey build their nests. It is not given to this Star to contain in itself so great Potency, or from itself to form so precious a Stone. Yet I affirm, that in it lies absconded a famous Medicine, which may be made of it. The Star is thus made.

GALEIDOSCOPE

Here, I think Galeidoscope spoke of the Stibnit (S) and the Galena (G).
As it refers to the pseudo Dujols book that speaks of Galena (Chrysopée), I think it refers to work on the regulus of Galena with niter.

But who tells us that this is stibnit or galena which is the prima materia?
And if it sought another G? If you put a link with the M of Magnesia?

Believe me, I have speculated very much upon the meaning of G in Fulcanelli but the solution is as simple as it may appear, although this has not been discovered by all people; because most take it for granted that the books of Canseliet are a short cut to the latter and thus works upon Stibnite (although Canseliet suggested a red paramagnetic matter which had undergone assation per se).

GALEIDOSCOPE
Sorry, but I am not convinced.
We must not be content with excerpts from Fulcanelli to understand, but that our interpretation match throughout the text whatever the passage of the book.
Because it makes a lot of time that you are studying Fulcanelli, explain to me this passages of Fulcanelli in the light of Galena :

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

Désolé, mais je ne suis pas convaincu.
Il ne faut pas se contenter d'extraits de Fulcanelli pour le comprendre, mais que notre interprétation colle à l'ensemble du texte quel que soit le passage du livre.
Vu que cela fait beaucoup de temps que vous étudiez Fulcanelli, expliquez moi ces passages de Fulcanelli à la lumière de la Galène :


DP II, page 251 « L’ouverture du premier livre prépare celle du second. Car il y a, cachés sous le même emblème, deux livres fermés et deux livres ouverts, bien que ces livres hiéroglyphiques n’en fassent réellement qu’un seul, puisque le métal provient de la matière initiale et que le soufre prend son origine du mercure. »


MDC, page 178 « Chacun connaît le blason et la devise de ce haut personnage : trois cœurs formant le centre de cette légende, présentée comme un rébus, A vaillans cuers riens impossible. Fière maxime, débordante d’énergie, qui prend, si nous l’étudions selon les règles cabalistiques, une signification assez singulière. En effet, lisons cuer avec l’orthographe de l’époque, et nous obtiendrons à la fois : 1° l’énoncé de l’Esprit universel (rayon de lumière) ; 2° le nom vulgaire de la matière basique ouvrée (le fer) ; 3° les trois réitérations indispensables à la perfection totale des deux Magistères (les trois cuers). Notre conviction est donc que Jacques Cœur a pratiqué lui-même l’alchimie, ou du moins qu’il a vu élaborer sous ses yeux la pierre au blanc par le fer « essencifié » et trois fois cuit. »
I agree that one must not necessarely limit the research to the books of Fulcanelli, that's for sure, but if you would like to work according to his directions the subjetc of the sages is G and that is for sure. Of course one may find hundreds of obscure minerals with the initial letter G but this is IMO too sophisticated. In the books by Fulcanelli there are numerous indications to this mineral, too many to mention. Gal, Gallia, Gallus... Stains the hands black and coated with an arsenical sulphur...

The passage you quote relates to the opening of this mineral which constitute the preparation of the universal solvent / pierre astral, the second closed book is the preparation / extraction of the sulphur with the help of this agent.

GALEIDOSCOPE
Yes, I agree with you about simplicity.
But Galena is for me a solution still too simple.

What do you think about this passage?

« la majuscule M sert à identifier notre Magnésie dont elle est, d’ailleurs, la lettre initiale. »

It's not just the Galena who sticks to descriptions of all authors about the materia prima ...

Moreover, astral stone obtained by the work on the Galena is not a real astral stone but just a niter with a metal sulphur...
Is it green? Does it appeared only on condition that the work is done in darkness?
Does it drawed moisture to become a golden water?
Does it dissolved all metals?
In this context the letter M signifes the "spirit of magnesia" viz. the universal solvent. That's all. The initial letter of the vulgar name of the mineral subject of the sages is G (according to Fulcanelli). If you have worked with G you know perhaps that, during certain conditions, it emits a curious green scoria (compare with Agricola who speaks about a green underwear under the grey helmet) which never occurs if you work with S. Which brings us back to a short notice in the first preface of Le Myst viz. that the key to the major arcanum simply consists in the appearing of a certain color... Green of course.

However, the big challenge is to obtain a friable regulus of G and thus I asked if anyone had attained it... Like Dujols describes.

GALEIDOSCOPE

In this context the letter M signifes the "spirit of magnesia" viz. the universal solvent. That's all.
No, that is not all.
The "spirit of magnesia" is the IM, not just the M...

. Ainsi élevé d’un degré, ce mercure devenu fixe par l’accoutumance au feu, a de nouveau besoin d’être dissous par l’eau première, cachée ici sous le signe I, suivi de la lettre M, c’est-à-dire Esprit de la Magnésie, autre nom du dissolvant.

Moreover, there is also the green vitriol with Stibnit.
It has the amber color when hot and is green when cold.
And there are not the only matters which give this result.

And so, what is the proof that Dujols was really the author of the Chrysopée ?

And so, what is the proof that Dujols was really the author of the Chrysopée ?

Well, why doubt it? In his comment upon mutus liber he rejected S and hinted at the oak tree and the SELAGE of the druids, curiously almost a perfect anagram for G One of my friends has seen the original of Chrysopée, along with some other private manuscripts by the same hand of Dujols.
First there are the stylistic characteristics of the text without being absolutely bad, is not really the height of a Dujols or a Fulcanelli.
The Chrysopée is not a lab book as claimed because the author speaks to the reader.
Then there are passages pasting of Fulcanelli.
There are anachronisms as the history of sunglasses to wear to work at the lab.

In fact, have you have supported all your weight on the lid of the cup as indicated Dujols?

Anyway, I though I will not convinced you ...

PS : A perfect anagram ? SELAGE > GALENA... Not for me.

First there are the stylistic characteristics of the text without being absolutely bad, is not really the height of a Dujols or a Fulcanelli.
The Chrysopée is not a lab book as claimed because the author speaks to the reader.

The text is written as a clavis and obviously not intended to have been made public.

Then there are passages pasting of Fulcanelli.

Yes and this makes it even more interesting.

There are anachronisms as the history of sunglasses to wear to work at the lab.

Such glasses were well known in 1920 and used in the industry.

In fact, have you have supported all your weight on the lid of the cup as indicated Dujols?

No I used a 5 kilogram iron weight instead "the shield" indicated by Fulcanelli in chapter of Dampierre (no one will attain it without combat), much safer, however the violence of the operation is crazy. Thus the danger which Fulcanelli points out. However there are also some other tricks necessary to know in order to perform this operation and penetrate into the sanctuary to say the least.

Anyway, I though I will not convinced you ...

You did not say anything about the I M and how it is connected with G? Be not envieux

GALEIDOSCOPE

PS : A perfect anagram ? SELAGE > GALENA... Not for me.

Excuse me but in French it's not Galena, it's GALÈNE and you should now that!
I was the spirit, the astral of astral stone.
M is the Magnesia, but it is also the initial of one of the names of the matter.
G is also the initial of another name of the matter.
This is a family of minerals, not just one...


Excuse me but in French it's not Galena, it's GALÈNE and you should now that!
Yes, Galène, not Galèse...

I was the spirit, the astral of astral stone.
M is the Magnesia, but it is also the initial of one of the names of the matter.
G is also the initial of another name of the matter.
This is a family of minerals, not just one...

Marcasites -- Galmei?


Excuse me but in French it's not Galena, it's GALÈNE and you should now that!
Yes, Galène, not Galèse...

Yes and therefore I wrote "almost a perfect anagram", one single letter differs!

Green Lion
01-07-2009, 04:50 PM
The beautiful case ...
We are almost or in the rigorous research?

To see a friable regulus of G, you could try to mix ganela with tartar for the separation. You should not use niter at this step.
Then you should use just niter to purify the regulus.
With the amount of knowledge you two appear to have regarding Fulcanelli- you might benefit more by studying the phonetic cabala, which I personally feel, is where all innuendo ceases regarding the matter. He would not have placed so much effort and intent on it if it did not have it's merit.
All the cabala which is usefull in Alchemy is explained in "Clef des oeuvres de saint jean et de michel de nostredame" by M.A. de Nantes.
All the Greek Myths are explained with alchemy by using etymology, signification of greek terms etc.
This is the must.
It is not necessary to look after Grasset d'Orcet.
And in reading this book of M.A. de Nantes, we can see that Fulcanelli was not the most clear in this domain...
I have read the book and it's OK, however Fulcanelli is much more revealing and I strongly doubt that the author of the Nostradamus was an adept.

Regarding the phonetic cabala it's nothing else than a pedagogic viz. to teach secrets to those who takes the trouble to dechiffer it's meaning in context with the authors intension; in this case Fulcanelli. However I do not believe that even Fulcanelli himself truly had faith in all these play with words, which were moreover not at all used by the majority of alchemists, at least not to the point that Fulcanelli pretends. It's a way to describe secrets by using allussion and metaphors. Nothing else. Then if people still does not grasp that all such allusions as Gall, Gallia, Gallus, gale (cat in Greek), Astragalus etc. pertain to the mineral G, well it's a pity for them.

Good luck with all your endavours.

GALEIDOSCOPE
Good luck with Galena.
I really want you to succeed.
Thank you. I wish you the same, we all have our darlings and it's up to each person to become wise upon his or her own beliefs.

GALEIDOSCOPE
Very well, I wish you both the best of luck.
Hello,

S or G are good choices for the Art. These two matters have both their values, energies etc.
Before reading Pierre Dujols, I didn't know that G could be used, and I must say that hermetically it is interesting.
Just a little meditation is needed to see why.

My best to you,
Salazius.
"In his Dwellings of the philosophers Fulcanelli openly rejected Stibnite as being the true materia prima... "

Actually, he rejects antimony, not stibnite. I think that was a false blind. Antimony is not the material, stibnite is.
And you know when they speak openly they conceal.

But I beg your pardon. You asked for someone who worked with G, and I have not.

"In his Dwellings of the philosophers Fulcanelli openly rejected Stibnite as being the true materia prima... "

Actually, he rejects antimony, not stibnite. I think that was a false blind. Antimony is not the material, stibnite is.
And you know when they speak openly they conceal.

No this is not correct. Fulcanelli specified: "as for the MINERAL Stibnite if posess none of the required qualities and in whatever manner we want to treat it neither the secret solvent or the philosophical mercury could be made from it."

You may also consult the adept who examined antimony and mineral Stibnite more than any one else viz. Basil Valentine and he did, as you may read in one of my former quotes in this thread, not consider neither Stibnite nor antimony as being the true matter for making the philosophers stone. You may also meditate over the fact that why it should be a great secret to envolve a starrypattern from Stibnite? This is a chemical triviality and does not envolve any alchemical parameters at all. However, if you could accomplish the same upon the surface of lead and have it friable (without the help of any additional matters forming an alloy) it would be most curious to say the least... Because this can only be accomplish by the natural and secret fire which is the secret of secrets.

GALEIDOSCOPE
Thanks for the education, G.

So the difference then, is that S makes a firestone but not a Red Lion?
S can't be taken all the way?

Still hard to believe, the way it swallows metals and stuff, that it's not the prima materia.
Yes that is a correct interpretation Solomon Levi: fire stone (a particular) is indeed possible by antimony / S but not the red lion which according to BV is found in another mineral which he describes as the astrum solis...

However all this is in accordace to the Basil Valentine and Fulcanelli paradigm, of course one must not necessarely limit the study to them (I dare to say I have been through, studied, more than a couple of hundred different texts in english and french), there are certainly other (and completely different) paths to follow too, if they all lead to Rome is up to you judgement dear aspiring adepts.

GALEIDOSCOPE
Hi,

I'm also pleased to read your discussion.

Galeidoscope,
I suppose you also think about Van Dongen's frontispice of Irene Hillel-Erlanger's novel, don't you ?

We know from the correspondence between Gifreda and Canseliet, that the latter from the beginning worked on G
you mean you read that correspondence ?


I would like to come back to your initial question : have you managed to realize a lead regulus stellated and friable ?
I haven't had the opportunity to work on lead yet, but sooner or later I'd be pleased to do so, in the way to compare metallic sulphides behaviours. Whatever, I heard about people who succeeded in obtaining a stellated lead regulus... friable I don't know. With S, friable is possible.

G, S, or M as you wish : you point a primordial key. Shifting the crystallization of a metal or a mineral, without making an alloy. The initial purpose is, according to me, to modify the structure of the material without addition of material. Transfering in the ore the soul, the memory of the iron, while rejecting the body of the iron.
If we forget texts, do your experimental results show you that G is better than S for this operation ?

Glad to read you
PP

All the cabala which is usefull in Alchemy is explained in "Clef des oeuvres de saint jean et de michel de nostredame" by M.A. de Nantes.
All the Greek Myths are explained with alchemy by using etymology, signification of greek terms etc.
This is the must..

Green Lion, do you know whether this book by M.A. de Nantes has been translated into English? If not, is there an electronic version of this book availalble?

Thank you.

Green Lion
01-07-2009, 04:53 PM
Hi Illen A. Cluf

No, unfortunately, there is no translation of the MA de Nantes book .
It has never been digitized either.
As against, it is sometimes available for sale in its French version.
Hello Green Lion,

Thank you for your response. That is disapointing that there is no translation. I have searched for de Nante's book, but have not been able to find a used copy that is reasonably priced. However, you did say that you thought that Fulcanelli's books were much better in defining the bird language than de Nante's book, so that is encouraging. I have been attemping to create my own glossary of the terms he uses in his books for some time, but it's still a long way from completion.

Are you aware of any other attmpts to create such lists? I'm surprised that there seems to be so little effort in that regard.

Illen
There are others who have done this kind of list.
But each time, these lists were "tinted" with regard to the election matter of the authors.
For example Roger Caro has done, but it only works for the cinnabar path.

The best thing is to make oneself such list. It is more profitable.


Thanks for your reply, Green Lion. I think the list is worth completing in any regard, since much more is learned and comprehended in the process of making the list itself.
Hello friends, I was reading your posts and saw references to the letter G that you associated with the galene instead stibnite of the dry path of Fulcanelli.

Recalling Fulcanelli phrases as "...not proper mineral and even less metalic” , and that the letter G is represented, Fulcanelli said, amid a radiant star, and is called Saturnian Antimony...

Don`t you have thought about graphite? Graphite is a black substance, greasy and stained fingers; it is not mineral or metal; formerly it was called Plombagina, because people believed it contained lead in their substance.

The graphite is obtained from the carbono dissolved in the molten iron, and when cooled, graphite occurs in the form of needles. (¿star?)

Is also an excellent electrical conductor.

Is just an alternative to the idea that you discussed.
I have also given some thought to Graphite.
Carbon - carbuncle
Coal - Al kohl/alcohol = antimony.

Fulcanelli also said the materia was signed by nature with a sigma/six.
Carbon is the 6th element - 6 protons, 6 neutrons, 6 electrons - 666.

Don`t you have thought about graphite? Graphite is a black substance, greasy and stained fingers; it is not mineral or metal; formerly it was called Plombagina, because people believed it contained lead in their substance.

The graphite is obtained from the carbono dissolved in the molten iron, and when cooled, graphite occurs in the form of needles. (¿star?)


Interesting possibility. In the past, graphite was also thought to be a black lead and was called "black lead" or "plumbago". And it is a semi-metal. However, the substance was described as having "scales" rather than needles. Are there any treatises that mention graphite as a possibility?

Illen

I have also given some thought to Graphite.
Carbon - carbuncle
Coal - Al kohl/alcohol = antimony.

Fulcanelli also said the materia was signed by nature with a sigma/six.
Carbon is the 6th element - 6 protons, 6 neutrons, 6 electrons - 666.

This devil image of the coarseness material, as opposed to spirituality, is the first jeroglific to the mineral substance ...

It saw in another time under the figure of SATAN ...

Black and covered with scales ...
...and of strong sickening smell ...
...that stain your fingers when you touch it ... (Fulcanelli)

By other hand, I think from alcohol to antimony, there is a big phonetic difference ... ¿Don`t you think so?


Don`t you have thought about graphite? Graphite is a black substance, greasy and stained fingers; it is not mineral or metal; formerly it was called Plombagina, because people believed it contained lead in their substance.

The graphite is obtained from the carbono dissolved in the molten iron, and when cooled, graphite occurs in the form of needles. (¿star?)


Interesting possibility. In the past, graphite was also thought to be a black lead and was called "black lead" or "plumbago". And it is a semi-metal. However, the substance was described as having "scales" rather than needles. Are there any treatises that mention graphite as a possibility?
Illen
Are there any treatises that mention graphite as a possibility?

I do not know any.

However, the substance was described as having "scales" rather than needles

Yes;
Needles were a reference to the starry regulus, not the raw matter ...; but you are correct in your appreciation.
I'm just "thinking out loud".
Hi Pierre,


However, the substance was described as having "scales" rather than needles

Yes;
Needles were a reference to the starry regulus, not the raw matter ...; but you are correct in your appreciation.
I'm just "thinking out loud".

I actually enjoy "out of the box" thinking, and your suggestion certainly has merit. Fulcanelli did mention that the matter stains the hand, and is black, so both lead and graphite fit this description, although lead does not start with "g". However, regarding the substance that starts with the letter "G", Fulcanelli also suggests that the word has its roots in the word "gall" (e.g. the gall of an oak tree) and "Gaul" as in "France". This immediately brings to mind "galena", but I'm surprised that hardly anyone ever also mentions the possibility that it could also be the element "gallium" which begins with "GalL".

Just a little more food for thought.

Illen
I am afraid that graphite is common max 100 years now. But I was hinted on orpiment - sun signed, with scales!, Timaos - knot of gold, it smells, its sign and Fulcanelli and that safety pin... Certainly remarkable.
And if then that black is a lie.
Illen,
Graphite is simply carbon, so we can consider the manifestations of coal,
charcoal, soot, and diamond, as well as graphite. Then there may be some
connection to potassium carbonate as ash.

Carbon also makes sense as a first matter, since every living thing is carbon-based
on this planet.

I think I mentioned somewhere that ammonium carbonate is the simplest
matter that covers all four elements:

NH4CO3
Nitrogen - air
Hydrogen - fire
Oxygen - water
Carbon - earth

(is hydrogen fire or water? Fire consumes oxygen, so I guess it can't BE oxygen.
But when we talk about getting water we say "hydration". Hmmm?)

There is much talk about ammonium being the secret fire, so it deserves consideration.
Ammonium carbonate was called Salt of Hartshorn.

Aleilius
01-07-2009, 04:56 PM
Carbon can do some pretty interesting things. I know the "soot" that rises with fire has been known to contain buckyballs. It could be considered a "volatile" or "sublimed" form of carbon.


There is much talk about ammonium being the secret fire, so it deserves consideration.
Ammonium carbonate was called Salt of Hartshorn.
I've heard multiple things. Some say the secret fire is an ammonium salt, but others mention that the secret fire accompanies ammonium salts (they act as magnets). I'm not too sure what I believe, but I am of the notion that ammonium salts may be acting as magnets of the secret fire. Could be totally wrong though!


By other hand, I think from alcohol to antimony, there is a big phonetic difference ... ¿Don`t you think so?

Yes, but if the name "antimony" signifies the first matter, then the name
is phoenetic to coal, for the old ones called it "al kohl", which somehow
later became alcohol.

Carbon can do some pretty interesting things. I know the "soot" that rises with fire has been known to contain buckyballs. It could be considered a "volatile" or "sublimed" form of carbon.


There is much talk about ammonium being the secret fire, so it deserves consideration.
Ammonium carbonate was called Salt of Hartshorn.
I've heard multiple things. Some say the secret fire is an ammonium salt, but others mention that the secret fire accompanies ammonium salts (they act as magnets). I'm not too sure what I believe, but I am of the notion that ammonium salts may be acting as magnets of the secret fire. Could be totally wrong though!

But if lightning puts ammonia in the air and makes for better
rain water, then that's something other than a salt magnet. That is,
it supports the idea that the ammonia is secret fire and not magnet.



Yes, but if the name "antimony" signifies the first matter, then the name
is phoenetic to coal, for the old ones called it "al kohl", which somehow
later became alcohol.

Hi solomon.
I agree with you that alcohol is used as a philosophical subject by some authors.


Hi, BE And solomon.
Many people think that dew containing a salt that has remarkable properties solvents. This very volatile salt of ammonium is NH4NO2. This salt should be distilled from dew to a very mild temperature, (60 º C maximum) because it oxidizes and becomes easily NH4NO3, and in this state is completely useless.

Aleilius
01-07-2009, 04:57 PM
Hi, BE And solomon.
Many people think that dew containing a salt that has remarkable properties solvents. This very volatile salt of ammonium is NH4NO2. This salt should be distilled from dew to a very mild temperature, (60 º C maximum) because it oxidizes and becomes easily NH4NO3, and in this state is completely useless.
I've heard of this before, but I can't recall where. Thanks for bringing it back to my attention.

Ammonium nitrite can be made by oxidizing ammonia with ozone. Ozone can be produced via high voltage corona discharge. In my opinion, this would yield a very interesting "philosophical' product (on account of the electricity).

Illen,
Graphite is simply carbon, so we can consider the manifestations of coal,
charcoal, soot, and diamond, as well as graphite. Then there may be some
connection to potassium carbonate as ash.

Carbon also makes sense as a first matter, since every living thing is carbon-based
on this planet.

I think I mentioned somewhere that ammonium carbonate is the simplest
matter that covers all four elements:

NH4CO3
Nitrogen - air
Hydrogen - fire
Oxygen - water
Carbon - earth

(is hydrogen fire or water? Fire consumes oxygen, so I guess it can't BE oxygen.
But when we talk about getting water we say "hydration". Hmmm?)

There is much talk about ammonium being the secret fire, so it deserves consideration.
Ammonium carbonate was called Salt of Hartshorn.

Hi Solomon,

Carbon is certainly a good candidate for further research. It's black, brittle, comes in layers like a closed book, marks the hands, and can come in 6-sided plates like the scales of a dragon (graphite). Fulcanelli states that the subject matter is associated with the number "6". Carbon is the sixth element and it also comes in 6-sided scales as mentioned above. It is also not either a metal or a true mineral.

Regarding ammonium carbonate, hydrogen is an important component of water, as is oxygen, but as separated from water, it is difficult to categorize where they should be included. The message seems to be that elements individually are different than their compounds, so the true test of whether a compound contains the four elelents is likley its overall properties

Illen.


I've heard of this before, but I can't recall where. Thanks for bringing it back to my attention.

Ammonium nitrite can be made by oxidizing ammonia with ozone. Ozone can be produced via high voltage corona discharge. In my opinion, this would yield a very interesting "philosophical' product (on account of the electricity).

BE, You only need collect and distill the dew gently, and the final resulting salt is ammonium nitrite. In the caput mortum is the nitrite, which is extracted by leaching and calcination of this caput mortum.

Hellin Hermetist
01-31-2010, 12:18 AM
Fulcanelli's path seems very interesting. I think that he spoke clearer than any of his predecessors. As regards the first matter of the work. At the chapter of the Salamander of Lissieux Fulcanelli speaks in this way:

"Its traditional name, the stone of the philosophers, is descriptive enough of the body to serve as a useful basis for its identification. It is, indeed, genuinely a stone, for, out of the mine, it shows the external characteristics common to all ores. It is the chaos of the sages, in which the four elements are contained, but in a confused, disorganized manner. This primal substance has seen its evolution interrupted by the interposition of a filthy combustible sulphur, which coats its pure mercury, holds it back, and coagulates it. And, though it is entirely volatile, this primitive mercury, materialized by the drying action of the arsenical sulphur, takes the shape of a solid, black, dense, fibrous, brittle, crushable mass rendered, by its lack of utility, vile, abject, and despicable in the eyes of man, Yet, in this subject --- poor relative of the metal family --- the enlightened artist finds everything that he needs to begin and perfect his Great Work, since it is present, say the authors, at the beginning, the middle, and the end of the Work."

So we must look for a substance, which deserves to be called a stone, is solid, black, dense, brittle and crushable and is like the poor relative of the metal family. I am almost sure that this substance must have a relation with coal. Coal is called in Greek γαιάνθραξ which can be translated as geocarbon. Fulcanelli also states that the four elements can be found in that substance. Solomon Levi of the forum specified correctly the four elements from the Hermetic standpoint but he made a mistake. Ammonium carbonate (NH4CO3) is not the simplest matter that covers all four elements. Ammonium carbonate is the simplest matter that contains the four elements in its chemical formula. In fact, coal is composed primarily of carbon along with variable quantities of other elements, chiefly sulfur, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. Here we have our four elements. Except from that, at the chapter of the alchemical myth of Adam and Eve when Fulcanelli speaks about the second Adam (I think that this corresponds to the first metallic manifestation in the physical plane), he refers to the Greek word Αδάμας, which means diamond or another form of coal.

So I believe that a mineral which is in close relation with coal shall be the substance from which we shall extract the mercury of the philosopher or common mercury and from an interference of this mercury with a metal, which shall give its sulfur principle to this mercury, we shall take the philosophic mercury. As regards the method whereby we shall extract the mercury of philosophers from our first substance I remain in total darkness. Fulcanelli speaks cryptically about a secret fire and the salamandre. Limojon said that the first of the six Keys is that which lays open the dark prisons, wherein lies captive sulphur and Cosmopolita teaches us that the salt isn't less important form the other two principles, as that is the key which opens the dark prison, wherein lies captive the sulfur. So we shall seek a salt which will react with our mineral and from this reaction we shall get our first mercury? The salt and the mineral are the two initial matters which Cosmopolite named steel and chalybs and the salt corresponds to the secret fire of the philosophers?

Let's look at ourselves for a moment. We have a secret fire which gives us life and maintain our body temperature. Neither common fire nor solar fire can increase our esoteric fire (or our body temperature). On the other hand many viruses are able to bring on such a result and if our body temperature pass over a certain limit, the result will be death. We must kill the living to revive the dead. Do you see any correspondence here?

If anyone can shed some light to these points I should be grateful. Ah! and sorry for my bad English.

solomon levi
01-31-2010, 12:35 AM
Great post Hellin Hermetist!

Some thoughts in regard to carbon:

You said we have a secret fire that gives us life. When our breath is
expelled ("de-spised") it is carbon dioxide, a gas. Isn't it odd that
silicon dioxide is a mineral - sand, quartz, glass, etc while carbon dioxide
is a gas ("chaos")?

Also, the idea of phlogiston should be studied. Phlogiston is related to carbon.
Iron + phlogiston/carbon = chalybs/steel.

I've mentioned somewhere that carbon is 666 - 6 electrons, 6 protons, 6 neutrons.
Fulcanelli said that our matter was imprinted by nature with a 6....
(could refer to the stellated regulus too)

Also graphite starts with a "G".
Graphite is etymologically similar to gryphin, but I haven't been able to make any
sense of that in practice (the gryphin being our fixed and volatile combined, which
would not be graphite, unless it was treated in some way to fix it???)

Ab Roek
02-01-2010, 12:19 AM
Here you are approaching the real arcana. Remember, he who finds the furnace will not be at a loss for the matter in which it (the matter) is cooked.

Viel Gluck
AB RK



Let's look at ourselves for a moment. We have a secret fire which gives us life and maintain our body temperature. Neither common fire nor solar fire can increase our esoteric fire (or our body temperature). On the other hand many viruses are able to bring on such a result and if our body temperature pass over a certain limit, the result will be death. We must kill the living to revive the dead. Do you see any correspondence here?

LeoRetilus
02-01-2010, 12:43 AM
Fulcanelli's path ....
...interposition of a filthy combustible sulphur, which coats its pure mercury, holds it back, and coagulates it. And, though it is entirely volatile, this primitive mercury, materialized by the drying action of the arsenical sulphur, takes the shape of a solid, black, dense, fibrous, brittle, crushable mass rendered, by its lack of utility, vile, abject, and despicable in the eyes of man, Yet, in this subject --- poor relative of the metal family.....



I think magnetite here again fits the bill more fully....

For one it is a poor metal being a form of iron oxide.

Two it is brittle and crushable more so than a lump of coal might be, coal isn't really brittle like a metal is especially when its moist, not to say that coal is useless it contains bitumen which is in effect a philosophical oil and a stone can be had of it.

Three is you read here ..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite is says:
"Magnetite powder efficiently removes As(III) and As(V) from water, and the efficiency of the removal increases ~200 times when the magnetite particle size decreases from 300 to 12 nm.[4] Arsenic(As)-contaminated drinking water is a major problem around the world, which can be solved using magnetite as a sorbent" This fits the bill as well in this relation,"drying action of the arsenical sulphur"

And four if you do a sodium burn on magnetite, especially derived from lava pumices you will extract a white mercury that is the semen of ra, which was bound up in the by "the filthy sulfur" (interposition of a filthy combustible sulphur, which coats its pure mercury, holds it back, and coagulates it.) When you burn this black sulfur away it will release this philosophical mercury. This is the Essene's Sodium Burn method.....lets not forget that these modern day methods which we cast aside becuase we do not think they conform to our dogma have to had originated from somewhere. :)

Five, also in the above link it says,"Magnetite reacts with oxygen to produce hematite, and the mineral pair forms a buffer that can control oxygen fugacity"... fugacity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugacity) is:"Fugacity is a measure of a chemical potential in the form of 'adjusted pressure'. It reflects the tendency of a substance to prefer one phase (liquid, solid, or gas) over another, and can be literally defined as “the tendency to flee or escape”. At a fixed temperature and pressure, a homogeneous substance will have a different fugacity for each phase." This is how our fire, our oxygen, our air, our mercury principal, the breath of god is made a stone, so that it will not flee.

Hellin Hermetist
02-01-2010, 01:52 PM
Thanks for these infos Leo Retilus.

As regards the Mercury of the philosophers, Fulcanelli agrees with all the other good writers that this is the true key of our art. He also afirms that this substance is a catholic metal menstruum but this isn't its specific characteristic which can differentiate it from any other common substance. The main virtue of the mercury of the philosophers, is that it is a fluid which is able to coagulate itself and transform into a metal when it is subjected to the action of fire. Have you really managed to acquire such a substance?

horticult
02-01-2010, 08:07 PM
& what about a separation of magnetism from magnetite???

LeoRetilus
02-01-2010, 08:25 PM
Thanks for these infos Leo Retilus.

As regards the Mercury of the philosophers, Fulcanelli agrees with all the other good writers that this is the true key of our art. He also afirms that this substance is a catholic metal menstruum but this isn't its specific characteristic which can differentiate it from any other common substance. The main virtue of the mercury of the philosophers, is that it is a fluid which is able to coagulate itself and transform into a metal when it is subjected to the action of fire. Have you really managed to acquire such a substance?




Yes, I have and from several different starting materias...and I'll tell you something once you have found several different materias from which to extract it and you become familiar with its qualities you will eventually find a material that contains it in abundance. There is one particular materia that is quite clean, odor and fume free, and a stone can be had of it in a couple of hours as opposed to days, months or years. Now that I know this materia I don't think I'll ever go back to using crude substances (GW) ever again. But I think just for fun I'll complete all the paths of the adepts for practice including the dry paths. (although I've already blown myself up a couple of times) We also have at our disposal in this day and age tools that the ancients did not have that can bring a stone to completion in a matter of minutes.

But please don't make the mistake of obsessing over one materia that an adept might be alluding to, if you do and wait till you find the exact one he is referring to you might never find it and thus you might never get started, this is a mistake I believe many have made.....there are several from which to start with. And I'll tell you something else now that I've made the stone several different ways, one thing is beginning to become quite apparent to me and that is that the end product(red stone) always has the same appearance. Although not all of them will pass through all the beautiful color changes you might have read about, in fact maybe only the slowest paths will.

LeoRetilus
02-01-2010, 08:54 PM
Okay heres a link to the sodium burn method to extract the philosophers mercury from black sand/magnetite you can also use gold if you are rich enough:
SODIUM BURN: http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/burn.htm

And if you are weary about pure sodium metal as it is very dangerous to work with and highly reactive with water heres a calmer method (It still essential uses sodium but in the form of a hydroxide aka sodium hydroxide ,lye)

LYE BURN: http://www.subtleenergies.com/ORMus/tw/lyeburn.htm

This is what is looks like when it begins to appear:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/precip.jpg

Pay special attention to using zinc to chelate the sulfur away, it will hold the mercury and not release it and it(your mercury) will never appear
On some nights a portion of the white material inside the jar will ascend and begin to glow.

This is not the Philosophers Stone this is only the mercury of metals, there are other ways to obtain the sulfurs and salts of metals as well.

But all this metal burning aside there is still a materia out there that you only have to squeeze to get this same mercury out of.;) If you ever find it don't ever repeat it here, please.

Andro
02-01-2010, 09:03 PM
We also have at our disposal in this day and age tools that the ancients did not have that can bring a stone to completion in a matter of minutes.

Not necessarily...

I find your high voltage potential spark experiments very similar to things I've read about the Ark of the Covenant :)

LeoRetilus
02-01-2010, 09:09 PM
Not necessarily...

I find your high voltage potential spark experiments very similar to things I've read about the Ark of the Covenant :)

I stand corrected....you're right! The egyptians had radiant energy as well, if you look closely at some of their hieroglyphs you will find what looks alot like a high voltage insulator and conductors, even lightbulbs. In fact thats what the pyramids were really for, they were generators. And the ark of the covenant was a condenser(capacitor) and the two cherubs sitting on top were the spark gap!

http://realknightstemplar.com/images/Ark_of_the_Covenant.jpg

http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ark_of_covenant_high_priest_2-225x300.jpg

http://www.world-mysteries.com/fd_lamp.jpg

http://www.world-mysteries.com/fd_sued1.jpg

http://www.freewebs.com/garyosborn/Djed.jpg

Check this site out: http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_lights_fd1.htm

And then we have this:

http://home.c2i.net/kadjina/Bilder/Djed-map.gif

Which is basically Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter:

http://www.canarias7.es/blogs/alpispa/wardenclyffe-tower.jpg

Which he first built a smaller model in Colorado Springs and almost completed the larger one at Wardenclyffe which is pictured above.

And you can see and follow my current progress on replicating it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_18E6lo3gN4 :D

Another interesting thing is that you can modulate the spark gap on a Tesla coil through a audio amplifier and make the Tesla streamers produce sound through the air....I imagine the Gods spoke through the spark gap on the ark, between the two cherubs...it was basically a radio to listen to the broadcasts from The Pleiades which the pyramids were aligned to. ;)

Andro
02-01-2010, 09:45 PM
And the ark of the covenant was a condenser(capacitor) and the two cherubs sitting on top were the spark gap!

That's exactly what I meant :)

All the more reason for me to believe your high voltage potential spark experiments to be so important.

It seams perfectly plausible that one of the Ark's functions were to make a Stone of some kind, to keep the elite priesthood in power, even when in exile.


And as for alchemy... well how do you think those who got into power got there in the first place?

horticult
02-01-2010, 10:29 PM
And I'll tell you something else now that I've made the stone several different ways, one thing is beginning to become quite apparent to me and that is that the end product(red stone) always has the same appearance.

I read somewhere some hints, advising to base/start alchemy research on stone appearance.

LeoRetilus
02-01-2010, 10:39 PM
I read somewhere some hints, advising to base/start alchemy research on stone appearance.

And I would also recommend this approach , if it is a stone you seek.....you quest should begin with nature and with the caves and mines thread.

However if you ever hope to understand the basis of all things you should not limit your work to one kingdom.....the greatest fruits begin and end with the vegatative.(Spaygrics) Only because you will find the most rewarding materias there which will make best use of your time.

Hephælios
02-02-2010, 02:30 AM
"Its traditional name, the stone of the philosophers, is descriptive enough of the body to serve as a useful basis for its identification. It is, indeed, genuinely a stone, for, out of the mine, it shows the external characteristics common to all ores. It is the chaos of the sages, in which the four elements are contained, but in a confused, disorganized manner. This primal substance has seen its evolution interrupted by the interposition of a filthy combustible sulphur, which coats its pure mercury, holds it back, and coagulates it. And, though it is entirely volatile, this primitive mercury, materialized by the drying action of the arsenical sulphur, takes the shape of a solid, black, dense, fibrous, brittle, crushable mass rendered, by its lack of utility, vile, abject, and despicable in the eyes of man, Yet, in this subject --- poor relative of the metal family --- the enlightened artist finds everything that he needs to begin and perfect his Great Work, since it is present, say the authors, at the beginning, the middle, and the end of the Work."
I wouldn't search for it in mineral...as I know of no such base mineral/metal that contains all four elements...disorganized or not.


So we must look for a substance, which deserves to be called a stone, is solid, black, dense, brittle and crushable and is like the poor relative of the metal family. I am almost sure that this substance must have a relation with coal. Coal is called in Greek γαιάνθραξ which can be translated as geocarbon. Fulcanelli also states that the four elements can be found in that substance. Solomon Levi of the forum specified correctly the four elements from the Hermetic standpoint but he made a mistake. Ammonium carbonate (NH4CO3) is not the simplest matter that covers all four elements. Ammonium carbonate is the simplest matter that contains the four elements in its chemical formula. In fact, coal is composed primarily of carbon along with variable quantities of other elements, chiefly sulfur, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. Here we have our four elements. Except from that, at the chapter of the alchemical myth of Adam and Eve when Fulcanelli speaks about the second Adam (I think that this corresponds to the first metallic manifestation in the physical plane), he refers to the Greek word Αδάμας, which means diamond or another form of coal.


It is my opinion that you cannot search for a thing to begin your work that has already attained some level of completion or fixation (αδαμας adamas also means fixed). Fulcanelli's quote is a bit misleading in my mind... the stone he is referring to is the philosopher's stone (which would equate that it has already been manufactured or neared a level of completion and could not be found as is- in its native state). It is right that he says it is found at the beginning, middle, and end... as it is dissolved and coagulated in each of its ascending iterations (vegetable,mineral, and animal). As for its true beginning... I would search the sea (maris).

In the caverns of the metals there is hidden the Stone, which is venerable, bright in colour, a mind sublime, and an open sea. (from Eudoxus)

LeoRetilus
02-02-2010, 04:14 AM
This white vapor, this gur that exists in mines where gold and lead have been mined condenses into a white matter if the conditions are cool and wet however if the conditions are warm and dry, with sunlight present it will condense into a red matter. These are the two mercuries, or rather one will contain a higher degree of philosophical sulfur and the other a higher degree of ph. mercury.

What originates from the sea is the microcosmic philosophers salt that can be had from all vegatable matters upon their calcining. You can do the seawater precipitation method on seawater to extract these salts of course and when you remove the sodium ion and potassium ion you will have nothing , I mean literally you can clean this matter well enough that it will assay to be nothing. These matters obtained in these ways are not particular and they have not become anything yet, and the salt in particular will grow into metals by just being exposed to the sun and rain, however even after they have become something (metals) these three principals can also be extracted from the particulars, and the adepts have written of such paths. I am not speculating,..... I am not looking for the prima matera..... I have already made the stone in many different ways and they all pass the test....I left my armchair along time ago....I do not look to lead anyone astray, nor to distract. If you choose to be stuck one the words of a man who wrote a book along time ago, instead of realizing the true beauty of nature , then you will always be plagued by a lifetime of speculation and second guessing. And as well you will never see the "big" picture.
The greatest words that were ever written concerning the subject of alchemy have always been and will continue to be the words written in bas relief upon the Emerald Tablet by Hermes himself. And I continue to marvel in the completeness and the simplicity of the words he chose.

Andro
02-02-2010, 09:51 AM
As for its true beginning... I would search the sea (maris).

There are many seas in the sea :)

I've worked with several of them (some better than others), and they all exhibit the almost exact same beahviour when cooked under the Secret Fire, who's Father is the Sun and who's Mother is the Moon.

It is this volatile Mercury/Secret Fire(ment)/Ferment that makes appear in the Vessel of Chaos the distinct White Salt and Red Sulphur, which are afterwards united, conjoined and made homogenous in the vessel by means of this same Volatile Mercurial Fire (properly attracted and focused), with hardly any need to put your hands to it.
The cooked and homogenized Matter becomes in turn our Fixed Mercurial Fire/Firement/Ferment/Firmament (Heaven) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament) - the Philosophical Sun/Heaven made fixed in our Earthly vessel, able to overcome anything gross and penetrate anything subtle.

As Wyrd becomes more 'fixed' in this forum and as more superfluities are cast off, the more speciffic and plain the revelations here will become...

Which brings me to this interesting philosophical question (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?p=6804#post6804)...

Hellin Hermetist
02-02-2010, 07:51 PM
Philalethes in one of his treatises speaks in that way:

"All true philosophers agree that the First Matter is a moist vapor, raised by the action of the central fire in the bowels of the earth, which, circulating through it pores, meets with the crude air, and is coagulated by it into an unctuous water, adhering to the earth, which serves it for a receptacle, where it is joined to a sulfur more or less pure..."

Cosmopoilita says the same thing in his teratise:

"The metals are produced in this way: after the four elements have projected their power and virtues to the centre of the earth, they are, in the hands of the Archeus of Nature distilled and sublimed by the heat of perpetual motion towards the surface of the earth. For the earth is porous, and the air by distillation through the pores of the earth is resolved into a water out of which all things are generated. The substance of stones is the same as that of all other things; and their quality is determined by the purity of the places in which they arise when the four elements distil their vapour to the centre of the earth, the Archeus of Nature expels and sublimes it in such a manner that it carries with it in its passage through the pores of the earth, all the impurities of these places up to the surface, where they are congealed by the air, all that pure air engenders being congealed by crude air, their ingression being mutual, so that they join one with another, since Nature rejoices in Nature."

Aristeus in a less known treatise speaks that way:

"All nourishments bear witness of their Fountain.
Since things live by that whence they are nourished.
The Fish enjoys the Water, the Infant sucks the Mother
By the Life the Beginnings of things is known.
Air is the Life of things, therefore the Beginning of things....

.... It is the golden Key to know how to open
the Doors and draw Air from Air.
For it being not known how Air is fished
It is impossible it should be gotten.
That which cures particular and universal diseases
Learn therefore, my son, to catch Air
Learn to keep the golden Key of Nature.
Creatures may know the Air,
But to catch Air, is the Key of Nature."

If these words are sincere, this unknown aerial sustance has to be the real key of the art. So we must seek a way to acquire this gaseous substance. Do we have to use a natural magnet and collect it from the atmosphere? Do we have to descend to the mines and collect it from the entrails of the earth? Do we have to draw it out from an already fixed substance? The philosophers affirm that when this vapour meets with crude air (oxygen?) it transforms itself to an unctuous water. As I comprehend it, this unctuous water resides in the inner part of the ores and waits the coming of the agent which the alchemists call sulfur to coagulate itself to a metal.

So, first we have to extract this unctuous water, which is the radical humidity of the metals from an ore and after that we divide the aerial substances of this liquid. In the case of water we use electrolysis to divide it to its aerial components (hydrogen, oxygen). I don't know what artifice we have to use in this case to divide the crude air from the vapour which ascend from the earth. Cosmopolita affirms that:

"We must also note that the vapour is constantly ascending, and in its ascent from the earth's centre to its superficies, it purifies the places through which it passes. Hence precious metals are found now where none existed a thousand years ago, for this vapour, by its continual progress, ever subtilizes the crude and impure, and as continually carries away the pure with itself. This is the circulation and reiteration of Nature. All places are being more and more purified: and the purer they become the nobler are their products"

So when we have acquired this vapour, we let it ascend in our vesssel, descend to our matter and ascend again in a circulatory way. As we repeat th procedure, we shall get better and nobler results. These are my thoughts at the moment.

LeoRetilus
02-02-2010, 10:50 PM
. Do we have to use a natural magnet and collect it from the atmosphere? Do we have to descend to the mines and collect it from the entrails of the earth? Do we have to draw it out from an already fixed substance?

Take your pick....depends how much time you have on your hands. We have now outlined all three methods at this forum.


.
As I comprehend it, this unctuous water resides in the inner part of the ores and waits the coming of the agent which the alchemists call sulfur to coagulate itself to a metal.


Correct and a perfect example of this is what I wrote here: Galena (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?p=6536&highlight=galena#post6536)



"Large gas-liquid inclusions are found in the galena crystals from some hydrothermal lead-zinc deposits. Inclusions' vacuoles are negative crystals. Their habit, macro- and micromorphology and arrangement are studied. Inclusions have a primary character. It is assumed that gas bubbles formed in heterogeneous boiling solutions have played an important role in their formation. The galena surface over the outermost inclusions is plastically deformed, and specific depressions, or infrequently bulges, are formed. The causes and conditions of the deformation are discussed. Similar positive plastic deformation is reproduced experimentally. The liquid released by opening the inclusions evaporates rapidly depositing NaCl and KCl in an epitaxic orientation on the fresh galena cleavage surface."



Think about why metals usually form out of their oxides, we rarely ever find metals in the reduced or non-oxidised state. Thus to release said waters from reduced metals we should re-oxidise them. ;)
And like I said previously get rid of the Na and K(sodium and potassium ion) and you will have a substance that assays to be nothing. Thus it is truely, "Philosophical" Mercury, and the beginnings of matter.

Hephælios
02-02-2010, 11:29 PM
To HH,

Brilliant post. I believe the answer(s) to your question's lies in understanding the terrain that is appropriate for its germination. I would not search for the first matter in a fixed subject as you would at some point need use of a specific solvent to dissolve it. That would be contrary to the one vessel, one matter, and one fire epitome associated with the work. Unless of course your fixed material produced said solvent in reverse order...which I doubt.

Twelve Keys: It proceeds from one, and is one matter. Bind together the fixed and the volatile; they are two, and three, and yet one only.

Waterstone of the Wise: This Matter is found in one thing, out of which alone our Stone is prepared (although it is called by a thousand names), without any foreign admixture; and its quality, appearance, and properties have been set forth in the following manner. It is composed of three things, yet it is only one. Likewise, having been created and made of one, two, three, four, and five, it is everywhere found in one and two.
Cold Moist (Water) Hot Moist (Air) Cold Dry (Earth) Hot Dry (Fire).

Hephælios
02-02-2010, 11:59 PM
Take your pick....depends how much time you have on your hands. We have now outlined all three methods at this forum.


Methods for what? Making the stone? Can I ask why nothing you've outlined has reached the temperatures necessary to produce the stone (i.e. a fire of the fourth degree)? Which incidentally, is a fire perpetuated in its latent stage by itself and not via external combustible resources. And nothing you've shown has matched the form attributed to the stone as per numerous source material (renderings and treatises).

LeoRetilus
02-03-2010, 12:24 AM
Methods for what?

For extracting the Philosophical Mercury thats what....

As for your question about heat or fire, those things only oxidise and there are far more powerful forms of oxidising envirnoments at the disposal of the skilled hand. The only thing I ever need extreme amounts of heat for are to calcine my materias after I have extracted their philosophical mercuries and ph. sulfurs, and this is only to obtain its philosophical salts which I will later volatilize as well maybe with its mercuries again or maybe not. But as the stone comes to completion, you do not need a high degree of heat, maybe only to wed the three principals once they have been purified and to prove that the final product is incombustible, this is merely how it will be proven to be a stone.

But if you are refering to the subject of exothermic reaction of the three principals as an alkahest concerning its action on gold metal yes it does produce heat as it dissolves/opens it but if you use a gold calx or sulphur of gold the heat procuced by said reaction will be minimal because the electrons have already been burned away chemically(ph swings) or with HV potential.

....Heph you do alot of quoting of other peoples words and you think you have this grand understanding of them but you are usually always wrong my friend. I'm sorry but you consistantly misunderstand and misrepresent your quoted material and the entire subject of practical alchemy, and this is not my opinion alone. Do you really think that the stone is going to manifest itself in your flask by just contemplating it?

I as well have no quarel with you nor would I entertain the idea of arguing my points with you any further.

Hephælios
02-03-2010, 04:26 AM
I've never really concerned myself with what others think. If you believe my quotes are incorrectly placed than by all means attempt to correct me.

Jerry
02-03-2010, 01:37 PM
....Heph you do alot of quoting of other peoples words and you think you have this grand understanding of them but you are usually always wrong my friend. I'm sorry but you consistantly misunderstand and misrepresent your quoted material and the entire subject of practical alchemy, and this is not my opinion alone.

Hephælios merely has pointed out that you cannot defend your position by the original source material. This doesn’t make him wrong.


Do you really think that the stone is going to manifest itself in your flask by just contemplating it?

Sort of. Understanding that the flask is the hollow oak in which is found the Philosopher’s Mercury. The Philosopher’s Mercury is a spiritual substance and does glow but her name is Maria and can only be found by the profound meditation of the mind.

Andro
02-03-2010, 03:26 PM
Mr. Jerry,

What you fail to understand is that as long as your meditations/contemplations don't come full circle by practical application in your Life and Work, you will not achieve the marriage of Heaven and Earth.

"Its power is intact when converted to Earth"

Earth is physical and practical - Salt of the Earth :)


Her name is Maria.

Now we're making real progress. I always thought her name was Elvis...

In my opinion, you still need to learn that genuine Philosophers don't really care much for names, but rather for the archetypal principles behind names and forms.
They often call one thing by different names, just as they often use one name for different things. I believe you need to learn to see beyond that...

And as it always tends to happen - some will eat their Stones while the rest will eat their words. A matter of diversity of sorts :)

Good luck with your endeavours, anyway...

LeoRetilus
02-03-2010, 07:31 PM
As I looked at this post today there were currently 666 views on this thread, this is a bad sign to me and further indicates that even though God is present here in the form of wyrd , so is the devil in the form of deception. Satan hates man, he is jealous of man and he uses the words of truth mixed with lies to deceive man.......I'm sorry but this is the way I perceive Heph interpretations of his quoted material. And my point is...... this is the practical alchemy section of this forum, that is, discussions here should produce something you can hold in your hand a physical stone, not an imaginary one. And as more and more people succeed in producing said physical stone through practical lab alchemy we shall see the truth/proof will indeed be in the pudding.

LeoRetilus
02-03-2010, 07:35 PM
Hephælios merely has pointed out that you cannot defend your position by the original source material. This doesn’t make him wrong.



I can.... but I won't be tempted any further.

You can chose to interpret the hollow oak to be your noggin and I can chose to interpret it to be the ore Galena, or magnetite where I know a clear mineral spring is bound up in the walls of its crystal lattice.

It doesn't make me wrong either. But I have scientific proof that the alchemists were talking about physical substances and not idealogical ones.

Hephælios
02-03-2010, 10:22 PM
My notions lead to a tactile and tangible conclusion....that is- something physical. If you read my previous post I said that it has a form that has been rendered throughout history in sculpture and art and always with the same appearance. I could and have provided the image to some, but I would not do such a thing openly as it would lead to deceptive manipulations by others to adhere to this particular form. Because you cannot fathom the process I understand- it does not make it imaginary. I do not meditate a thing into existence... the process as I understand it is very much a physical endeavor. If you understood the work, you'd know why Satan is found during the 40 days Jesus fasted...instead of as a superstitious notion.

Hephælios
02-03-2010, 10:55 PM
In my opinion, you still need to learn that genuine Philosophers don't really care much for names

Everything I've read is contrary to that statement. For instance, Philalethes tells us that we should use eagles against lions... Of course if you don't understand this statement than its relevance is quickly lost. Eagles (ζέση - zeseh) pertains to air as it is governed by Zeus (ζεύς) [the cloud gatherer] and would loose its relevance if it were called penguins to lions.


Aristeus:
Moreover the Air corrupts all Bodies:
That which gives the gift of Life, destroys life also

Ab Roek
02-05-2010, 12:17 AM
Thank you Jerry. I am sure that everyone here would benefit from your perspective. I hope you will visit the forum frequently.

Yours Sincerely
AB RK



Sort of. Understanding that the flask is the hollow oak in which is found the Philosopher’s Mercury. The Philosopher’s Mercury is a spiritual substance and does glow but her name is Maria and can only be found by the profound meditation of the mind.

LeoRetilus
02-05-2010, 12:50 AM
"....only found by the profound meditation of the mind...."

Maybe thats how some have found it, but by far not the only way.

I've read of several studies done that measure brain wave activity, and there is one particular set of alpha waves, I believe, that previous to this study a certain pattern of activity had been only attributed to people who mediatate regularly, i.e. Tibetan monks, yoga masters.
So then they took a few college students and gave them a couple of m-state, ormus products (they did not know what they were ingesting, it was a blind panel) and they hooked them up to the same machines that monitor brain wave activity and within about 5 minutes they all exhibited the same brain wave activity as a yoga master/monk all this while carring on a conversation, not at all in an mediatative trance, completly oblivious to what their brain waves were doing.
And none of them had mediatated a day in their life.

Andro
05-07-2010, 11:03 PM
Back to the infamous G and M...

:eek:

The following interpretation is strictly my own.

It may well be far-fetched and not even remotely connected to what Fulcanelli had in mind, but nevertheless, here it is:

G = Goat

M = Man

Capricorn (the Goat/Montain Goat/ScapeGoat) is classically ruled by Saturn, as is Aquarius (Man) - also ruled by Saturn in classical Astrology.

Capricorn is the the Birthsign of the Philosophical Saviour (Our Stone), and its Glyph reminds of the Goat's beard, and of the letter G:

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/Capricorn_glyph.jpg

Aquarius is the Sign of Man, and certainly has the letter M in its Glyph (twice), M - Mem - Water, the two parabolical M-Rivers, springing from the same root:

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/Aquarius_Icon.jpg

Both of these Saturnian Roots may well be found in their respective Houses by 'Squaring the Circle' once (in either direction).
The outcome may reveal itself by 'Squaring the Circle' once more.

The double Saturn Goat/Man union is symbolized by the god Pan - half Goat, half Man.

The prefix 'Pan' is used to ascribe some sort of generality/universality, as in 'Panacea' or 'Pandemic' (take your pick :))

hermann salza
10-26-2010, 10:38 AM
Hello Hellin Hermetist,

In regard to your 'Fulcanelli Path thread (p. 3 of 4) and your partial quotation from the 'Verba Aristei Patris ad filium ' ('The Words of Father Aristaeus to his son') ? . . . could you [or anybody else ?] tell me which 'version' of this Aristaeus text, was your quote taken from ?.

And if possible, could you upload [or email me] the complete version ?.

I'm particularly interested in the more revealing wording of your source, as oppossed to the others that I have read.


Many thanks, Hermann.

Donna Matrix
10-26-2010, 01:37 PM
The god Pan was the god of wild places and wildness. The people who started Findhorn could actually talk to Pan. In order to help the devas, they set aside a untouched piece of property where the devas could "rest". It became the devas holy place, so to speak. Amazing resemblance between Pan and Satan in the classical depictions. It seems like whenever a new religion replaces an old one, they have to demonize the most popular dieties.

Hellin Hermetist
10-26-2010, 06:56 PM
Hello Hellin Hermetist,

In regard to your 'Fulcanelli Path thread (p. 3 of 4) and your partial quotation from the 'Verba Aristei Patris ad filium ' ('The Words of Father Aristaeus to his son') ? . . . could you [or anybody else ?] tell me which 'version' of this Aristaeus text, was your quote taken from ?.

And if possible, could you upload [or email me] the complete version ?.

I'm particularly interested in the more revealing wording of your source, as oppossed to the others that I have read.


Many thanks, Hermann.

Ηi. Here you can find the treatise of Aristeus:

http://www.rexresearch.com/alchemy/aristeus.htm

And here with additional comments from Limojon de St Didier:

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/letphil.html

hermann salza
10-28-2010, 01:08 PM
Ηi. Here you can find the treatise of Aristeus:

http://www.rexresearch.com/alchemy/aristeus.htm

And here with additional comments from Limojon de St Didier:

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/letphil.html

Hellin Hermetist,
Many thanks for your prompt and efficient reply, you are indeed a scholar and a gentleman, your links had precisely what I was looking for.

Thank you and all the best with your Work . . . Hermann v Salza.

Andro
11-13-2010, 06:17 PM
I wouldn't search for it in mineral... [...] As for its true beginning... I would search the sea (maris).

Hephælios is correct here... As I've stated somewhere else, searching in this or that mineral or 'matter' is like trying to extract water from a water faucet, not realizing that the faucet is NOT the source of the water... You don't just 'bobbitt' a phallus and then expect it to urinate :)

Also, I am aware of some of Fulcanelli's oral transmissions (closely guarded in certain circles) - and they are a completely different cup of mercury than what we find in the books attributed to him...

I would not take the written Fulcanelli materials as gospel. The works of 'older' adepts are much more enlightening, at least to me...
Cyliani is brilliant and IMO quite explicit. Pontanus is very practical in his description of the Fire. I also find St.Didier indispensable.

I would also not neglect the importance of the 'Fire Against Nature' (I don't think it's oftenly mentioned), in addition to Natural Fire (not vulgar Fire).

Aleilius
11-14-2010, 02:56 AM
Hephælios is correct here... As I've stated somewhere else, searching in this or that mineral or 'matter' is like trying to extract water from a water faucet, not realizing that the faucet is NOT the source of the water... You don't just 'bobbitt' a phallus and then expect it to urinate :)
I have to disagree with both you, and Hephælios. I respect H, but we differ in many things. I cannot tell what he's ever thinking about alchemy, and it annoys me sometimes (sorry H, but you're very vague when discussing these matters). He'll led you one way, and then completely led you a different way, but maybe that's my own misguided attempts at trying to understand him. He says many topical things, but only really deals with the symbolism side of the story. Sure, I also love the symbolism, but I also know when to be practical.

Regardless, I can quote many alchemists that tell you our matter is a mineral matter, and is of the metallic realm. They all point to this! Then we have the camp that likes to think differently, and tends to point away from the mineral/metallic matter notion. Really, I think there's some disinformation in both parties, but I'm not sure which party is more disinformed. I will also say that many of these perspectives only serve to led the searcher astray, and to muddy the waters.

While the faucet may not be THE source of water, it is the most immediate source, and the water is readily extractable (without going to a well, resevoir, etc). Go play with your dew, and sea salt my friends! Let's see how long that takes, and how it works out! Go work with urine, animals, plants, etc! ;)

Seth-Ra
11-14-2010, 03:18 AM
I would just like to say that ive read texts that say not to use a LOT of materials, from dew, to animals, plants, and also to NOT use minerals/metals like gold etc...
The thing is, is that to vulgarly work with any of these will not give you what you seek. (assuming youre looking for the Philosopher's Stone - plenty of medicines and such can be made from various things by common and uncommon means, but not the Stone.) You see, if you could make the Stone by normal chemical means, even working with metals - it would be known and done. It just simply isnt. Nor is it from vulgar work with other materials.

Science is a funny thing - there are different "types" of science. Chemistry deals with physical chemical composition - tis a vulgar science, as are many. There are also "inner" science that deal with the mind, how to read a person, get in their head - but this type of science is more subtle, and has plenty of things that can disrupt it - variables. There are also those who focus on the variables themselves - at some point all sciences, whether in the mind, or in the flesh, get to being like a chess board: there are only so many ways something can act and react. (with vulgar workings)
Then there are the spiritual sciences, various religions try addressing these things with their various operations. In these sciences things are not the same as vulgar workings, though effects and changes can be observed when they occur.

Alchemy is not a chemical/vulgar thing, nor is it a super-spiritual thing. It is a combination of the two - with either one, you wont get it, with both you will. Balance is key, understand both. What good is the metal if there is no spirit in it? What good is the spirit if it cannot manifest? Matter is energy, life is energy - the quintessence, the life, is an energy all its own, though found in the other 4 (respectively).

Metals are found in the mineral, plant and animal kingdom - they are like magnets, or batteries, per se, to the particular energy of life. But you have to use it as such to get it to work, otherwise, its just a metal that youre dissolving, breaking down, and reconstructing.

Whatever matter you use, see it as the vessel, welcome the life of it, and the universal life to continue to dwell therewith. Break it down, to ascend it higher, purge it of its impurities, free it from death, raise its vibrations higher, and re-manifest it. Just as important - as you do this in the lab, do it also in yourself. You can only manifest that which you posses. Dont just push the matter and its spirit, push yourself with it. :)



~Seth-Ra

Andro
11-14-2010, 03:22 AM
The nature of the First Matter is plainly revealed by its name: "First Matter" (Prima Materia).

And by the way, it is no 'matter' at all. Not metal, mineral, dew, sea salt, urine, animal or plant material.

Do you onestly believe that the primordial First Matter of Creation is a metal or a mineral?
Would it be possible to try and forget the texts for a moment and look for the answer from a different perspective?

The First Matter is actually completely immaterial to our senses. It is with the help of Art that it manifests into undetermined (unspecified) physical form.

Without Art, one can see this First Matter condensed in every Kingdom in millions of ways, but corrupted by vulgar specification/determination.


Go play with your dew, and sea salt my friends! Let's see how long that takes, and how it works out! Go work with urine, animals, plants, etc!

See above. And see also below (my signature). Good luck.

vega33
11-14-2010, 09:03 PM
We see that between the Firmament and our Earth continual Vapours, Clouds, and Fogs, which ascend like a transpiration of the Earth, and are sublimed upwards by the Central heat of the Earth. This Chaotic water and Vapours, contain, and are the First Matter of all Things, and although this appears very simple before our Eyes, yet it is two-fold, as it contains fire and Humidity, the Invisible in the Visible, the fire or spirit is the Agent, and the water the Patient.

Whosoever wishes to arrive at the Fountain of Secret Wisdom, let him mind this well; and let him go with this Central Point of Truth to the circumference, and for ever imprint in his memory: that from fire and water, or spirit enclosed in Humidity all things in the World are generated, preserved, destroyed and regenerated.

Whosoever comprehends this well will find no difficulty in analising Natural things as he may easily volatilize fixt, and fix the volatile: a stinking subject he may convert into a pleasant smelling one, out of poison he can make a salutary Medicine because he knows that all things proceed from one Root; and return to that Root: The distinction is external and regards only the modification of the Matter, which is more or less digested or fixt. Therefore the Philosophers say that their Matter is in all Things, yet they have selected such Subjects wherein the Universal spirit is more abundantly contained and more concentrated, and easer to be obtained; otherwise that spirit is All in All.
--Golden Chain of Homer



HERMES, the First Master of this Art, says as follows: "The
Water of the Air, which is between Heaven and Earth, is the Life
of everything; for by means of its Moisture and Warmth, it is the
medium between the two opposites, as Fire and Water, and
therefore it rains water on earth, Heaven has opened itself, and
sent its Dew on earth, making as sweet as honey, and moist.
Therefore the Earth flowers and bears manifold coloured
blooms and fruits, and in her interior has grown a large Tree
with a silver stem, stretching itself out to the earth's surface.
--Splendor Solis, "The Other Parable"

Fulcanelli once said, with some remorse, that the first matter was before his very eyes every day, yet for the longest time he did not recognize it. Yet it is found even in the dungheap.

If any of you have ever been to a sulphur springs, and felt the raw power of the earth rising with such force through the crevasses, the thick acrid smoke expanding in all directions seeking to achieve equilibrium of its fiery energy with the surrounding environment... you'll know how such a statement of our master could be true. This vapour, rising in geothermal vents, has tremendous energy trapped within it.

Just as the sun heats the earth's surface, and then lets up for a period of time to allow for the internalisation or equilibriation of this heat, so the continual blasts of hot, acid water through such vents penetrates into the rocks. If this spirit which we sense as heat is incubated within a body for long enough, what do you suppose happens? The Birth of a Child?

As for the putrefaction or blackening... well, I'm sure at least one of you have witnessed the blackening of jewellery dipped in the water of a hot springs. The union of silver with the sulphur in the water, or other metals, creates a great blackness as well as releasing gases...

It is this air or vapour, or the smell, as Agent Smith would say, that is the life of all things. Which Aristeus said to his son in the same writing. This Fire, this Spirit, clothed in the subtle body of the air, manifested into matter by steps or stages (the Golden Chain in the French spends countless pages harping on this philosophical ladder), reveals the first matter. The first matter is the most subtle matter. All subsequent ones arise through digestion.

Fraternally
P.'.A.'.M.'.

solomon levi
11-15-2010, 12:33 AM
I've been thinking about this lately as well.
If we are to believe that the Opus Minor is the same process as the Opus Major yet upon a different
subject/kingdom, then we would certainly have reason to believe the mercury must be extracted from
a material subject.
Perhaps this merely echos again the two paths - wet and dry.

Acquire the first matter however you can. It exists as stars, air, water, earth, plants, minerals...
In some forms it is more pure, yet more difficult to cage, or perhaps difficult to conceive of caging it.

Returning to the Opus Minor, I don't think one should believe alcohol to be the mercury of the plant
kingdom. I think alcohol carries the mercury. The mercury is universal - should be the same for all kingdoms.

Aleilius
11-15-2010, 02:42 AM
This is a conundrum we have. What about the heterogeneous nature of these vegetable/animal subjects? They most certainly contain a wide array of elements/metals. Could all elements have their own share of the universal spirit, or is it only limited to metals? Is the universal spirit only linked with metals? Only nitrogen perhaps?

I give forth the example of heme. At the EXACT center of the molecule we have iron. Four nitrogen's surround this carbon. Is it only the nitrogen that contains the universal spirit? Is it only the iron that contains the universal spirit? Iron plays a very important role for the oxygenation of our system. Is the universal spirit contained in oxygen (or in the atmosphere/air we breathe), and then transferred to iron during the respiration process? Certainly oxygen could be considered the "prana." Hell, if you stop breathing oxygen - you'll die. There's your life-force science says. Science seemingly has done away with the life-force theory that was associated with elements via the seemingly erroneous notions of alchemy. On the other side of the argument, too much oxygen could prove to be fatal.

It's a very interesting debate, and I'm not sure anybody can say for sure. We have a lot of hearsay, a lot of theories, beliefs, but there's nothing very concrete. It boils down to philosophy with possible insights gained from our own experiences, and what we've gathered via reading the texts of the masters.

In the end, I leave you a few routes:

1) All elements contain their own share of the universal spirit, and their own properties for 'reacting' (attracton, rate of attraction, force of attraction, amount of attraction, possibly repulsion even) with it.
2) Only the metals contain the universal spirit.
3) Only oxygen/nitrogen contains the universal spirit.
4) There is no such thing as the 'universal spirit,' and the notion of life-force. Chemical reactions result in the so called 'life-force.'

In the end, I am not a searcher of alchemy, I am a searcher of Truth. If alchemy contains the Truth I seek, then I shall continue to seek it, but if not, then I hold no allegiance to it whatsoever. Oh, and don't even try to say that Truth is subjective! That argument makes my blood boil. Truth is singular, and is not subjective. Subjectivity is only the result of not understanding true Truth, and only the result of erroneous personal perspective. Again, there are paths to take with this notion: 1) we make our own Truth, or Truth is something that we must observe & it cannot be changed (i.e. the Laws of the Universe are etched in Stone). Truth is mirrored in the Laws. Are Laws subjective? Truth does not go against Logic. They are good friends. The Architect of Universe is the exact image of Truth, and Logic. The Universal Laws are not subjective. If Logic, Truth, and Law is subjective then the universe would not be as supremely ordered as we perceive it, hell, if nothing is True, then everything would be chaotic, and nothing ordered could exist. One is followed by two, and two is followed by three. Three is not followed by six, and preceded by two!

Sorry all, I know this is an alchemy board, and I know what I'm saying might not be very alchemical, but we need to look at all possible perspectives to try to decide which are True, and which one's are not. Really, this is what I try to do with these type of posts where I have to go against the grain. I mean no harm by it. I'm only trying to assimilate you into the Borg. Think nothing of it.

Nibiru
11-15-2010, 04:51 AM
Hello everyone! When broken down to the most subtle parts isn't all matter composed of the same particles? Isn't everything just a vibration of electrons that are themselves vibrations of quarks? If this is the case then I would think that you can find what we are seeking within all forms of matter. The key would be to find the matters that can be broken down into the prime substances that they are composed in the most economical way. I've heard that the secret of alchemy is to divide, divide, and divide some more. Going with this train of thought then one would think that we can find our starting material in all substances, although some materials would be much more suitable than others. And I would think the best route would be to start from no-matter and proceed to form the simplest form of matter ourselves in the same way the divine would of done in the beginning. But to make something from nothing seems to be one of the most closely guarded secrets. So if we were going to seek a good starting material I still feel that gur(EARTH) that has formed from humidity in the AIR that was formed through heat(Fire) upon moisture that cooled and condensed into a liquid(WATER) that gives birth to the gur(EARTH) could be one of the most appropriate starting materials. Some other contemplations I've had for starting materials have been carbon from burnt materials, as burnt wood sometimes appears as scales of a dragon and stains the hands and is found in most housholds of the past. Or coal which used to be in every household and is constantly treaded under the feat and also stained the hands. Or what about oil, it has allot of energy hiding in it and when it is mixed with water it goes from pitch black to all colors like a peacocks tail. I've also been thinking about flint quite a bit. Flint has a fire or spark living within it comes in a variety of colors and sometimes looks like reptile scales and also used to be found in all housholds. It has also been used to test for the purity of metals by scraping them across its surface. I also remember reading of an alchemical experiment that involved placing flint inside of a glass bottle and placing the bottle in a flowing stream or river and in time the flint would swell with etheric energy till it filled the entire interior of the bottle and once the bottle is broken the flint will be in the shape of the bottle. Here is a link of flint used to decorate a church: http://www.turnstone.ca/flintch.htm
I don't know if I'm on the right track with any of these contemplations, so if I am please drop me a hint so I can continue with that line of thought.....

-Peace

Seth-Ra
11-15-2010, 05:09 AM
Hiya Nibiru,

I find the gur to be quite important myself. I also subscribe that anything can make it - as All came from the One to begin with. I think the thought of "finding a better/more suitable material" is pretty good also, but id speculate as "better" how, more volatile, or more fixed (?) - and then to flip these. I also think this is where the Art part comes in. We can only truly teach ourselves, so we must follow the matters and kingdoms that best "click" in our heads. After all, in this "holographic" universe where everything is a reflection of everything else - to study one is to study all. ^.~


~Seth-Ra

Andro
11-15-2010, 05:59 AM
And I would think the best route would be to start from no-matter and proceed to form the simplest form of matter ourselves in the same way the divine would have done in the beginning.

I agree, and so far my personal observations and practical experiences reflect this agreement. The vast majority of my lab equipment is now retired from active duty and is currently on decorative display :)


...to make something from nothing seems to be one of the most closely guarded secrets.

When one is truly able to understand the nature of NEED and to put aside what one believes to be 'logic' and 'will' - this secret will be most likely illuminated in plain sight.

And BTW, there is no 'Nothing'. It only appears this way :)

Aleilius
11-15-2010, 07:23 AM
I've heard that the secret of alchemy is to divide, divide, and divide some more.
Saturn is the primal substance, and Vulcan is the means. You need one matter, one vessel, and one fire. This one matter has everything that is needed for our Stone, but simply lacks concoction. It is the best guarded secret of all. It will give you the legendary Stone of the Wise in the fastest, easiest, and most efficient way possible.

Why does water become ice at a certain temperature, why does it start to melt, why does it boil, and why does it vaporize? This is all due to heat inducing division in the matter. Extend this line of thought.


So if we were going to seek a good starting material I still feel that gur(EARTH) that has formed from humidity in the AIR that was formed through heat(Fire) upon moisture that cooled and condensed into a liquid(WATER) that gives birth to the gur(EARTH) could be one of the most appropriate starting materials.
This might be a way, but one can go directly to mineral/metallic matter to get the same thing. It's much easier to work with, and yield much much higher quantities of what you want with MUCH less work. Yeah, sure, you can do it, but it'll take you years, and years to accomplish what I can accomplish in roughly 4 days with one matter, one vessel, and one fire.

Oh, yeah, and in order for this to work as promised, you need to have a great understanding of the Art. You need to be able to distinguish that one matter, from all the other matters. They've not said much about this one. This one matter is most certainly produced by nature, but it is perfected by Art.

Aleilius
11-15-2010, 07:29 AM
When one is truly able to understand the nature of NEED and to put aside what one believes to be 'logic' and 'will' - this secret will be most likely illuminated in plain sight.
The need of it? How can you distinguish the dross from gold if not via logic, and truth? How can one find the best possible route if one doesn't know absolutes. I cannot but help to see the benefit of the need of such facilities.

Aleilius
11-15-2010, 08:24 AM
Oh, yeah, and in order for this to work as promised, you need to have a great understanding of the Art. You need to be able to distinguish that one matter, from all the other matters. They've not said much about this one. This one matter is most certainly produced by nature, but it is perfected by Art.
Once you understand this way, you will understand the real reason why Holy Saturday (the day after Good Friday, and before Easter) commemorates the day that Jesus Christ's body lay in the tomb before his rebirth. In death our Master performs the so-called Harrowing of Hades in which he 'descends' into the fiery pits of hell (ruled by Satan/Saturn), and redeems all souls that have been held captive there. The death of our Master brings about the redemption of mankind, and the return to Paradise in which way gain back our former eternal & divine status. This event is said to occur at the end of time (the death of Saturn)! Christ is our majestic Phoenix that is made perfect by death, and fire. It is the greatest sacrifice of all, and it's only purpose was for our redemption, and restoration.

THESE are the mysteries. :cool:

solomon levi
11-15-2010, 06:17 PM
This is a conundrum we have. What about the heterogeneous nature of these vegetable/animal subjects? They most certainly contain a wide array of elements/metals. Could all elements have their own share of the universal spirit, or is it only limited to metals? Is the universal spirit only linked with metals? Only nitrogen perhaps?

I give forth the example of heme. At the EXACT center of the molecule we have iron. Four nitrogen's surround this carbon. Is it only the nitrogen that contains the universal spirit? Is it only the iron that contains the universal spirit? Iron plays a very important role for the oxygenation of our system. Is the universal spirit contained in oxygen (or in the atmosphere/air we breathe), and then transferred to iron during the respiration process? Certainly oxygen could be considered the "prana." Hell, if you stop breathing oxygen - you'll die. There's your life-force science says. Science seemingly has done away with the life-force theory that was associated with elements via the seemingly erroneous notions of alchemy. On the other side of the argument, too much oxygen could prove to be fatal.

It's a very interesting debate, and I'm not sure anybody can say for sure. We have a lot of hearsay, a lot of theories, beliefs, but there's nothing very concrete. It boils down to philosophy with possible insights gained from our own experiences, and what we've gathered via reading the texts of the masters.



Hi Aleilius.
Interesting about nitrogen, oxygen and heme. You give me a good excuse to introduce my new blog.

http://serpentrioarquila.blogspot.com/2010/11/chlorophyll.html

As you can see, chlorophyll is exactly like heme save with magnesium at the center.
Perhaps you recall when I used to rant about solid solution series of magnesium and iron as our male and female seed.

Anyway, with all the C's and N's maybe there is the possibility to alter into cyanides, like what may happen in the nitre fixed by charcoal.

But I still lean more to the ammonia radical. Ammonia is taken up by plants: http://www.springerlink.com/content/j000gk612203k4vg/
And we know there is ammonia in animals in blood and urine. The tricky part is finding it in minerals.
I've done some experiments with silica where I fused sand and NaOH and then added vinegar while hot like Starkey's soap.
If you open any of the jars now, it smells like ammonia, really strong.
Acetic acid is CH3COOH. So i don't know where the N came from to make ammonia, but it's definitely there.
Anyone can verify my experiment.
I just opened a jar again - it's really strong ammonia.

Jean Dubuis and Bartlett mention the ammonia radical as the seed of metals.

Nibiru
11-16-2010, 06:31 AM
I would like to thank everyone for the enlightening responses to my post! Aleilius, I've tried to send you a private message concerning some realizations I've had following reading your post but was told your mailbox is full and you can not receive any messages until you clear some messages. Is there a way I can contact you privately in the meantime?

-Thank you

vega33
11-21-2010, 03:32 AM
When one is truly able to understand the nature of NEED and to put aside what one believes to be 'logic' and 'will' - this secret will be most likely illuminated in plain sight.

And BTW, there is no 'Nothing'. It only appears this way :)

Are you referring to the misunderstood writings of Parmenides, Androgynus?

It still amuses me how the goddess tells him, in his journey to the underworld, that in the realm of the gods what one thinks is the same as what is... secret throwback to the idea of spirit clothing itself first in subtle garments, then in more digested ones. Funny how the writings of such initiates - lawgivers/healers, Greek "medicine men", are misunderstood even in modern times.

Andro
11-24-2010, 12:54 PM
Are you referring to the misunderstood writings of Parmenides, Androgynus?

I'm referring to my own perspective.

I wasn't aware of Parmenides until you mentioned him - which I'm glad you did. I resonate with his concepts after reading his Poem (http://www.parmenides.com/about_parmenides/ParmenidesPoem.html?page=12).

In fact, a discussion around these concepts may well deserve a thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1837-Parmenides-Is-NOTHING-real&p=11724#post11724) of its own...