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solomon levi
07-30-2013, 11:18 PM
I've been giving some thought/attention to this again... like anything, you can't get to the
bottom of it... there is no bottom.
But when i look i see choices that are influenced by the past, by knowledge, by habit/security
and sometimes by will/unknown. Perhaps the arguments is "Is it MY choice?" not "Is there choice?"
But then the answer will again be different depending on how you define yourself.
For me, even if my choice now is influenced and motivated by my past, that doesn't make it any
less mine - it just makes choice more of a process than an act... but when time is all times, all
frequencies, that should come as no surprise that choice is also this... everything is also this.

What would constitute a choice? What if i am programmed 70% to choose A, but i go against my
programming for whatever reason and choose B?
If there is no choice, how do you explain when people change their lives drastically by seeing a
different perspective? Even if the initial perspective was inspired or graced, it takes choice to
continue to see/choose it over the old perspective. And not everyone keeps choosing it... not everyone
receiving a flash of inspiration is able to sustain it (choose it repetitively). On some level i am describing
choice here. Take it to another level and it may not look like choice...

Let's say choice is only apparent, not actual... does it matter? :) Is it any less of a choice?
Your body isn't real either... is it any less of a body, functionally, even if quantum physics
or spirituality 'prove' you don't exist?

There are degrees of consciousness. What isn't a choice for one can be a very conscious choice for another.
Is this argument really about what is illusion and what is real? The confusion of it is that we are beings
who make illusions real, who give potential actuality, even if it's a dream. If choice isn't real, nothing is real.
If nothing is real, you're not reading this. So what are we talking about? What is our measure for real?
Because i can make choices that make a difference in my immediate experiential world, whether we call it
choice or not. I see options, i way them... sometimes i choose the "wrong" option just for the hell of it -
to challenge myself. Sometimes i choose "not-doings" just to go outside the norm. Often i choose something
that will make me uncomfortable, and i'm not speaking about masochism. If i have learned not to choose
what i used to choose, what i would "normally" choose, but to choose something i haven't chosen before,
how is that not choice?

I am aware of Gurdjieff's view that we are machines who cannot do/choose, etc... but with the potential
of doing, etc... well, i have tapped that potential. The more conscious/awake/intentional i become, the
more choice i have. That's my experience. I had to observe myself a long time to be able to do this...
whether Gurdjieff's self-observation or Castaneda's stalking oneself, the whole point is to make conscious
what is unconscious. And when you are conscious of your routine, you can change it before it plays out - like a good chess player. This is one type of choice. One can choose to expose their ego instead of hide or defend
it... a difficult choice for some, impossible for others, very natural/easy for others still... how is that not choice?
Does education change nothing? Can i not choose to educate myself?
Isn't "All is choice" just as true as "there is no choice"? Both are perspectives.
The only objective measure would be a non-perspective state in which we could not think about choice or no-choice. :)

Awani
07-30-2013, 11:30 PM
Nice.

The problem is it can't be tested. Once the choice is made it can't be unchoosen... so there is no way to know if the choice was MY choice or FATE or whatever... If we reach a crossroads and decide to not make a choice, a choice will be given anyway. Consequence always follows... even in apathy/zombie state... nothing is fixed.

If I ask the Shroom I suspect its answer would be: choice is irrelevant, what is is

In other words choice is just layout. We will experience what we experience anyway, the choice aspect is just the surface, the "look" of the experience... I don't think this makes our lives driven by fate. Fate is also irrelevant. From the perspective of the infinite cosmos it is pretty simple... we are here... we can choose or experience fate all day long but in the end we are not a part of these things, we are not part of such words.

We have all had the question: what do you want to be/do when you grow up?

Major trap!

:cool:

I think I said the same thing you did, but with other words... LOL!

Ghislain
07-30-2013, 11:58 PM
I could only say what has already been said here too, but if we percieve a "good" outcome from a choice
we make then the ego says..."good choice". However if the outcome is percived as "bad" then our ego
calls it fate. lol

Ghislain