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Vibration
08-01-2013, 03:47 PM
This may be controversial, but...

Would anyone here be prepared to offer a riddle-free definition of the Philosophers' Stone (or at least 'your' riddle-free definition)?

I ask because, having browsed these forums quite extensively, I've seen many different interpretations, and I wonder honestly if - even among some of the more experienced alchemists here - there is in fact a common understanding of what The Stone actually is (in plain understandable terms).

Don't get me wrong - I do understand the need for encouraging philosophical thought in those seeking answers, and therefore I definitely see the merit of riddles/hints/encouraging people to 'discover it for themselves' etc... but if there isn't a common clear understanding of what the Stone is, then I'm not sure what the point of using it as a piece of terminology is anymore?

I also suspect that many people suggest that they have a clear understanding of The Stone, whilst actually not really being clear at all (but not wanting to appear ignorant/uneducated).

I for one could definitely not offer a clear definition at this stage of my understanding (my own interpretation has changed many times).

If you're not prepared to offer a definition, perhaps you could say why?

Andro
08-01-2013, 04:58 PM
This diagram is as good a riddle-free definition/explanation as any:

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/GoldenChain_zps115b9a55.jpg (http://s861.photobucket.com/user/androgynus_album/media/GoldenChain_zps115b9a55.jpg.html)

Someone on ***'s forum also posted a 'definition' of sorts:


The real elixir ( and only true one) and stone are made of one thing!
They are a maximum amount of matter in a minimum amount of space.
In other words, they are the astral fire, aethers etc. condensed down to a liquid or solid.
Anything else is a cheap imitation or something too weak to be of much use.Source and full text HERE (http://www.illuminated-alchemists.com/t540-the-real-elixir-and-stone).

Also, if you happen to have christian or even biblical inclinations, the concept behind the 'jesus' entity is pretty much a 'definition' as much as it is an allegory for the stone ('god' incarnate, etc...)

In other words, it is the ultimate fixed earthy 'perfection'. The 'universal life force' condensed undetermined/unspecified into 'perfect' matter.

Krisztian
08-01-2013, 05:41 PM
The Lapis is more like maximum amount of energy condensed and contained and "captured" in the tiniest of space, in matter, and also, without, being philosophical, time alters as well. The 'time part' is significant and appropriate to say because the literature indicates once ingested the continuation of uninterrupted awareness remains. What that means is, 'waking', sleeping, astral travel, in-between incarnations, etc. your consciousness remains unbroken. So, you remember everything!

I just propose here, I haven't seen it mentioned much, if at all, that it's more like an organic magnet that's been evolved and accelerated farther than Nature would have it, that "eats" up, attracts energy. Maybe, one could say radiation of sort, from Sun captured as 'cold light' during lunar eclipses by the moon, Apollo and Diana, then sent to Earth.

The other aspect of this is, that the Lapis would need to be in a form (evolved to eventually) that is capable of being digested by an organism.

Those would be my initial thoughts.

That comment about 'maximum amount of matter' more pertains to in my understanding of "minor opus" dealing with the making of a vegetable stone, etc.

solomon levi
08-01-2013, 06:29 PM
For me, the stone is the stone whether condensed or diffused. It is everywhere. It is all. It is THIS.
It is one thing, thus by definition no thing can be outside of the stone. Infinity, the universe, reality, is the stone,
whether subjective or objective, conscious or unconscious, something or nothing, realized or not...

the only question is how much you want to multiply it

Ghislain
08-01-2013, 06:50 PM
Love that description Sol :)

J.K. Rowling discovered the Stone in the form of the Harry Potter series.

This created, for her, immense wealth and immortality.

Was it coincidence that there were seven books?

Did any of the posts answer your question Vibration?

Ghislain

zoas23
08-01-2013, 08:02 PM
I love this thread!

There's a question that has been in my head for years:

What about the Stone and "real" gold?

This is the most confusing part for me. Some authors speak about the Stone as something that mainly produces ordinary gold.... other authors speak about the stone as something that can produce gold, but that's almost like a side-effect, even a "silly" side-effect... and other authors speak about the stone as something that has little to do with ordinary gold. I'm talking about "riddle-free" gold. Literal gold.

That's always the most confusing part for me (specially because the idea of producing "literal gold" has never been specially interesting for me... and I sometimes have doubts about it and I ask myself if I should get interested in that idea and if such thing is really important for alchemy or not).

I like the way in which the Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz finishes... a lot of Alchemists who have "survived" the whole experience are taught about how to make gold... and C.R. is split from the group and is taught something different... and he's told that the rest of the group has been deceived (i.e, that they were taught how to make Gold... but that Alchemy is not about making Gold). That one would be the answer I like the most... but what we like the most and what is real is often quite different.

What do you think about this issue (I hope I'm not derailling the thread, because I found it very interesting and I wanted to ask this specific question).

Vibration
08-01-2013, 08:34 PM
Thanks for the responses so far. All very insightful, and appreciated!
Would you say they're all entirely consistent with each other though? Do the responses suggest a common understanding/definition of 'The Stone'? Is there a such a thing? (That's what I'm really trying to understand).
e.g. the last line of the quote you included in your post, Androgynous, says:

"Anything else is a cheap imitation or something too weak to be of much use".
But if I understand you correctly, Solomon Levi, then surely "Anything else" is also 'the Stone' (possibly multiplied to a lesser degree)?
Please understand - I ask this with the greatest respect for you all.

JDP
08-01-2013, 10:25 PM
I love this thread!

There's a question that has been in my head for years:

What about the Stone and "real" gold?

This is the most confusing part for me. Some authors speak about the Stone as something that mainly produces ordinary gold.... other authors speak about the stone as something that can produce gold, but that's almost like a side-effect, even a "silly" side-effect... and other authors speak about the stone as something that has little to do with ordinary gold. I'm talking about "riddle-free" gold. Literal gold.

That's always the most confusing part for me (specially because the idea of producing "literal gold" has never been specially interesting for me... and I sometimes have doubts about it and I ask myself if I should get interested in that idea and if such thing is really important for alchemy or not).

I like the way in which the Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz finishes... a lot of Alchemists who have "survived" the whole experience are taught about how to make gold... and C.R. is split from the group and is taught something different... and he's told that the rest of the group has been deceived (i.e, that they were taught how to make Gold... but that Alchemy is not about making Gold). That one would be the answer I like the most... but what we like the most and what is real is often quite different.

Indeed. And that final reflection answers your own puzzlement about why some authors seem to deny that alchemy and the Philosophers' Stone have anything to do with making artificial gold and silver: they simply wished for what they considered "higher" things. The cold, hard reality of the matter, grandiloquent dreams of some later writers aside, is that this subject has always, since its very beginnings, been mostly concerned with the production of artificial precious metals. Anyone who has read the earlier Western literature (Greek and Arabic) on the subject will have no problem seeing this. It was mostly later on that some writers started attaching their own peculiar beliefs about "higher purposes" than "gold-making" to the subject.

The Chinese literature on the subject (which is another early one), however, is predominantly concerned with medicinal/longevity issues. The Stone/Elixir here is sought usually with the purpose of prolonging life as much as possible. Transmutation of metals is more of a side-issue in the Chinese literature.

So, to answer the original question of the thread; the Xerion/Elixir/Stone/Tincture/Medicine (or whatever you want to call it), according to the earlier literature on the subject, is an artificial (i.e. prepared through human industry) substance that can:

1- Transmute many times its own weight of base metals into silver and gold (this claim is present in both Eastern and Western alchemy)

2- Cure most -if not all- illnesses, preserve human health for as long as the person who ingests it lives, prolong life, and even make one "immortal" (this last one is a belief only present among the Eastern writers; the Western writers obviously had no such notion due to their very different religious beliefs)

solomon levi
08-01-2013, 11:35 PM
Yes. Everything is a stone within the infinite One stone. We can use anything as a subject and multiply it, but some things will respond more readily. Choose something homogenous to your water. Start where you are, not where you think you should. In this way you shall manifest the correct proportions. Transmute any small thing and your power will increase exponentially. There is no limit to this power (mercury) but we determine it with our sulphur. When you have purified your own salt so that it is a magnet to universal sulphur, you will be able to transmit the excess in/as transmutation/healing/wholing. You will be able to take on another's karma if you wish and spread the stone that way. We are lifted only as the whole is lifted. We can change only what we assume responsibility for.
The crystallisation of thought is no different than the crystallisation of salt when its own homogeneous water dries up. Where do we find this dissolving water? It is hidden in everything we have crystallised as beliefs, attitudes, opinions, knowledge... We must strike this rock with a staff that can turn into a serpent... we dissolve the particles into waves by removing the observer/ego/mirror. One can reverse engineer the process to manifest gold or anything made of atoms, or one can manifests the stone in a flask with this same process if inclined.

My view probably doesn't reflect the majority. :) Whatever alchemy an alchemist discovers is alchemy. The alchemist is the essential ingredient. The alchemist makes it alchemical. When we see as an alchemist sees, there are many methods/paths available... grasping the principles is more precious than particulars.

solomon levi
08-01-2013, 11:48 PM
"Real gold" is misleading. I'm not saying it isn't possible. I'm saying anyone who assumes the consciousness of one trying to produce gold as the goal will be mislead.
To produce gold is science-minded, not alchemy-minded. We will not learn to make compost by dreams of gold but by dreams of death/Saturn. People who hunger for gold do not want to die. An alchemist wants to die, to destroy gold. It is no coincidence that gold = sun = apollo = ego/individual (correspondences).
To want death is antimonial, arsenical. Ares is a different will than mars. Join both wills for the astral to appear. This is the sign.

Ilos
08-02-2013, 12:10 AM
I think that if you asked Einstein, did you find your philosophical stone, he would probably say,
yea I found it, it is e=mc2 but its not the point of finding it, its the point of the process you have to go through in order to find it.
You learn allot of things until you come to a point where you don't have to go through all the processes of accomplishing, you just have that
true source that you have been seeking. and with it your able to accomplish what you have been seeking for.
If an alchemist finds its philosophical stone than he doesn't have to go through the stages of processes to complete things he desired.
For example If I want to find a cure for all the diseases than I gotta find the stone that does that, than I wont have to go through any process to cure people, Ill just use the stone right?
So how do we find it? how do we know what it is? and is it possible to obtain it? it depends on what you believe and what you truly believe.
Maybe if Flamel, all that he wanted to, to be immortal and transmute metal into gold than he had found hes philosophical stone, now he has gathered
all hes knowledge into one stone, with other words the equipment of hes life search.
But now its up to you how you interpret it, how far does your philosophy goes, how can you all make it into one.

Vibration
08-02-2013, 08:27 AM
Thanks for the responses!

I'd like to pose a challenge:- Who is able to refine their definition of 'The Stone' into a purer, more condensed form? Concentrate the maximum amount of explanation into the minimum amount of words... Capture the essence of what the Stone is in a single eloquent sentence.

I ask this because it seems to me that the definitions of the Stone given in this thread are somewhat blended with broader alchemical teachings/concepts. Is anyone able to actually separate/distil the definition of The Stone (into a single sentence) from the broader concepts?

I know that's quite a challenge (maybe it can't be done; maybe the Stone can't be 'defined' like that)... but a beneficial one, I think (which could produce some beautiful answers) :)

JDP
08-02-2013, 09:36 AM
Thanks for the responses!

I'd like to pose a challenge:- Who is able to refine their definition of 'The Stone' into a purer, more condensed form? Concentrate the maximum amount of explanation into the minimum amount of words... Capture the essence of what the Stone is in a single eloquent sentence.

I ask this because it seems to me that the definitions of the Stone given in this thread are somewhat blended with broader alchemical teachings/concepts. Is anyone able to actually separate/distil the definition of The Stone (into a single sentence) from the broader concepts?

I know that's quite a challenge (maybe it can't be done; maybe the Stone can't be 'defined' like that)... but a beneficial one, I think (which could produce some beautiful answers) :)

A substance that causes metals to lose their particular forms and properties (both physical and chemical) and imbues them with those peculiar to gold and silver instead.

Note: Of course, the existence of such a substance is deemed "impossible", or at least very unlikely, by modern chemistry and physics.

Note 2: Notice I did not say "catalyst" in the above definition, because though it sounds very much like the general action of a catalyst, the Stone itself seems to become part of this change. Most accounts of transmutation do not say that the Stone itself remains intact after it has done its work, as a catalyst does in ordinary chemical reactions. The Stone simply "blends in" with the molten metals and "disappears" into them, all that remains after it has done its work is the precious metal produced (except in cases where an excess of the Stone is added and it remains mixed with the resulting gold or silver; in which case more base metal was added to consume the "excess of Tincture".)

Note 3: In some alchemical texts one even finds attempts at explaining how can the Stone make a more or less dense metal to acquire the specific density of silver and gold. Some alchemists (Geber, Arnold of Villanova, etc.) sought to explain it with corpuscular matter theories. Thus, for example, in the transmutation of less dense tin into more dense silver, the corpuscles of tin are forced to become closer together by the Stone, thus making it acquire the specific density of silver.

Kiorionis
08-02-2013, 02:21 PM
There's a question that has been in my head for years:

What about the Stone and "real" gold?

This is the most confusing part for me. Some authors speak about the Stone as something that mainly produces ordinary gold.... other authors speak about the stone as something that can produce gold, but that's almost like a side-effect, even a "silly" side-effect... and other authors speak about the stone as something that has little to do with ordinary gold. I'm talking about "riddle-free" gold. Literal gold.


I would agree, and think that this is where Art comes in. What's the matter being worked on? There are three radical humidities on Earth: Vegetable water, Animal fluid and Metallic mercury. When the stone is incorporated by Art into a specific kingdom, that kingdom's basic properties ought determine its powers.

Take for example the Stone which transmutes metallic lead into metallic gold. My question is, why would anyone want to consume this?
And the Stone which cures all disease and prolongs life. How could this possibly transmute metallic lead into metallic gold?


Thanks for the responses so far. All very insightful, and appreciated!
Would you say they're all entirely consistent with each other though? Do the responses suggest a common understanding/definition of 'The Stone'? Is there a such a thing?

The underlying principles seem to be consistent, but I think the answers depend on which stage each alchemist is. In the last two years, my definition of the Stone and its uses/purpose has changed dramatically, and I hope in the future it changes even more :)
And with this in mind, I also think it necessary to inquire into how Art plays into the manifestation of the Philosopher's Stone.
What is Art? Why does one constantly read references to 'the Art' or to do things 'according to the rules of the Art'?


But if I understand you correctly, Solomon Levi, then surely "Anything else" is also 'the Stone' (possibly multiplied to a lesser degree)?

I would point you back to Androgynus' first post, the image of the Golden Chain. Chaos condensed into matter, then revolatilized back into Chaos. Everything materially generated from One source -- through adaptation -- and eventually revolatilized back to One Chaos -- and then into whatever lies beyond (the Chain goes both ways).


An alchemist wants to die, to destroy gold. It is no coincidence that gold = sun = apollo = ego/individual (correspondences).
To want death is antimonial, arsenical. Ares is a different will than mars. Join both wills for the astral to appear. This is the sign.

I very much enjoyed this post, but it is confusing. Ares and Mars... aren't both masculine? Or is this a reference to the birth of Spring in May?


Thanks for the responses!

I'd like to pose a challenge:- Who is able to refine their definition of 'The Stone' into a purer, more condensed form? Concentrate the maximum amount of explanation into the minimum amount of words... Capture the essence of what the Stone is in a single eloquent sentence.

My simple definition of the stone:
The Philosopher's Stone is exemplified by the anatomy of the planet Earth, and through Art is incorporated into the multitude of manifest matter for the sake of medicine and the pursuit of individual spiritual enlightenment and perfection.

Krisztian
08-02-2013, 03:22 PM
. . . . Most accounts of transmutation do not say that the Stone itself remains intact after it has done its work, as a catalyst does in ordinary chemical reactions. . . .

Yeah.

I enjoyed your write-up here, JDP.


When we see as an alchemist sees, there are many methods/paths available... grasping the principles is more precious than particulars.

Yes. Probably as many paths as there are alchemists.

Seth-Ra
08-03-2013, 06:38 AM
Thanks for the responses!

I'd like to pose a challenge:- Who is able to refine their definition of 'The Stone' into a purer, more condensed form? Concentrate the maximum amount of explanation into the minimum amount of words... Capture the essence of what the Stone is in a single eloquent sentence.

I ask this because it seems to me that the definitions of the Stone given in this thread are somewhat blended with broader alchemical teachings/concepts. Is anyone able to actually separate/distil the definition of The Stone (into a single sentence) from the broader concepts?

I know that's quite a challenge (maybe it can't be done; maybe the Stone can't be 'defined' like that)... but a beneficial one, I think (which could produce some beautiful answers) :)


God in a bottle. :)




~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
10-09-2013, 02:36 AM
God in a bottle. :)

~Seth-Ra

Love this!

SolX
11-04-2013, 06:40 AM
oh boy! i would love to take a stab at this one. :)

forgive me for being absent. cultural matters took me by storm.

ok here it is as i understand it, and in as simple terms as can be made.

we have a problem, our genome structure has spread out very far, our abilities have been deluted like the rain delutes the ground. we can no longar ingest perfect materials such as gold and have it naturaly incorporate its self into our celular structures. therefore we have a chemical prosses to manufacture our body materials and to purifie them to a perfect point. once purified we can add things of a perfect nature to the compound. such as gold or rodneium, iridium, and so forth. the perfect nature of our purified body materials projects its self upon other organic and non organic matter. claiming its frequency patterns with in our purified compounds frequency (AKA philosiphers stone).

when we are now able to add perfect materials to our cellular structure, being that the perfect purified "Stone" is "OF" the body, it fortifies and strenghtens the structures. to the point of lasting and with standing a great deal more hardships and longevity then our bodys can indure today.

now for the last. this is all my personal opinion. be it correct or incorrect onlly continued study will inlighten myself. as would we hope all would continue on the studies.

III
11-06-2013, 06:19 AM
God in a bottle. :)


~Seth-Ra

That would have to be an N dimensional Klein Bottle, wouldn't it?

That way everything and nothing would be inside and outside of it all at the same time.

Seth-Ra
11-07-2013, 03:49 AM
That would have to be an N dimensional Klein Bottle, wouldn't it?

That way everything and nothing would be inside and outside of it all at the same time.


Lol neat idea, but i just use the bottles i have. :)



Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind, withering my intuition...
Source (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/tool/lateralus.html)

:cool:



~Seth-Ra

Bel Matina
05-08-2015, 08:03 AM
The Stone is a dicey one to explain as it belongs to a class of terms of Art which tend to run together in explanations, all of them applying equally well to anything and everything. Tree, Mother, Water, Matrix, Mercury, etc., blah, blah, blah.

First a word of advice on this class of terms. Each of them applies to everything in some sense, and to each thing in that sense. It's the sense that makes the meat of the technical use of the term.

From a certain perspective, the utility of Alchemy hinges on its methods being equally applicable to any context. You may learn many things puttering about with glassware, and to be sure it's a fine old tradition in our art, but all of it is squandered if you don't take it out of the lab. In my opinion, this idea is key to understanding the nature of the stone.

The stone is our matrix and our water and our matter and our tree, but distinct from these senses in that it is fixed. Used to refer to the sum of all that exists, the perspective it conjures stands outside of time, observing the relationships between all things and their foundation in a single principle. Lapis translates more accurately to crystal, and the properties of crystals (in that they can grow from a seed, and in the fractality and tessellation of their structure) are important to the metaphor.

The stone is a crystalline structure that contains the universe. Wherever it grows, things hold incorruptibly to their true nature, which becomes bright and visible. Suffering and death disappear.

Andro
05-08-2015, 08:57 AM
To which I'd add:

The Stone and the Matter of the Stone is Mind.

At its 'purest', the 'Materia Prima' of the Stone is Mind in Motion (i.e. 'Thought')

The Perfected Stone is Mind at Rest.

When Mind is at Rest:

Time is 'frozen'/'congealed'.

Space is irrelevant.

Conflict & Duality are non-existent.

Becoming turns into Being.

Doing is obsolete.

There is no need to Do, when One Is.

The Relative/Subjective/Knowable Creation not only thrives on Conflict/Duality/The Pendulum of Suffering and its Oppo-Sames/etc - Its very 'existence' is actually directly dependent on those.

Fixing 'Mind' in a State of Absolute Rest equals 'Liberation' from all of the above.

The 'How' of it is up to the Alchemist. Lab or not.


------------------------------------------------------

Ghislain
05-08-2015, 03:23 PM
This describes, better than I could, what I experienced on Ayahuasca...but I was just a visitor.

Ghislain