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Wigwamman
11-14-2013, 09:35 PM
Hay all you lovely people,

I have bin studding alchemy for some 4 years now, and did a lot of soul searching, and found it to be very nice to be an awaken person :) dit some herb extraction and found ormus for the first time in a MHRB extraction, now I am working on some sea salts and I am left with the wet Method precipitate,

now knowing there is allot of Magnesium hydroxide in there, so I would like to clean it up a little,

there 4 methods that would supposedly do that,

so what I did is try some of the known methods..

starting with the wet slurry made from dead sea salt
I filtered all the slurry true a filter “this took a long time”
then I let this dry on some moderate head source . after it was dry I pulverized it and put it in pan,
and baked this an low heat until no vapor was observed anymore, now I let this powder cool for a while,

now I took some distiled water and added this to the dry powder, this would fizz a bit.
Droped in some HCL to drop the ph to 3, this was dune slowly over the course of a day,
now I was left with some nice powder, I washed it like 3x the water was discarded,

now I droped in some more HCL to bring the ph down to < 1 now the rest of all the powder was dissolved, now there are still in solution some free fluffy particles so I let this sit for a while to let all the particles drop, I took of the top water en washed the precipitate 3x
now I have 2 things a Fluff and some liquid

now the question is what is what :P

I found in the literature that gold when headed would not be able to be dissolved anymore,

so I would think the last fluffy material would be m-gold but what is in the liquid because it should be free of magnesium because the magnesium hydroxide would turn to Magnesium oxide when heated, and would hydrolize back to Magnesium hydroxide when adding it to water “the fizzing”
and magnesium hydroxide is very soluble in some acid “turning to Magnesium Chloride”
so the ph 3 would be more than enough to dissolve all the magnesium and this ph was stable over the course of a day .


the color of the liquid is yellow to greenish, and the color of the fluff is like brown to dark brown,

I found that yellow greenish is good on the forum

so the next thing to do see what is in the liquid so I wil bring the ph up and see ad what ph it begins to precipitate..


and I will dry the fluff and see what it does when it is headed.. 450C would evaporate the m-gold if I am correct so we will observe what will happen...

if someone has some information on this I would love to hear your thoughts about it,

With love to all, Wigwamman

Wigwamman
11-17-2013, 02:28 AM
ok so a little update...

ik dryed the brown fluff en heated it with a torch and it burnt en turnt to black coal like stuff. so still more testing needs to be done..

i added a lye solution to the yellow greenish solution
and all percipetate whas very fluffy, the ph whas about 9 , with Red cabbage ph indacater fluit, so this seems to be good for some nice m-gold, i will wash the fluff and see what the effect are :)

i was wondering it some one knows if the m-gold-chloride is more or better potency then the white form in water..???


with love..

theFool
11-17-2013, 08:12 AM
Hello, I like your approach on how to clean the precipitate.

there 4 methods that would supposedly do thatfor our reference, those methods are described here: http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/ormus/ormus3.htm#PURIFY%20PRECIP
I cannot comment much on Dead sea salt as I haven't worked with that, but your observation here strikes my interest:

the color of the liquid is yellow to greenish, and the color of the fluff is like brown to dark brown,
It is said that m-gold in "chloride" form, has this color, but it could be also a contamination from iron vessels or utensils used. HCl can react with iron. Are you sure you have ruled out possible contamination sources?

Sometimes I have encountered precipitates from ormus work that are undissolvable even in AR. Some of them attract to a magnet too.

Wigwamman
11-17-2013, 01:33 PM
hay theFool,

nice of you to post on this topic ;)

ok this looks itresting, i think i ruled out any contamination, im using only glass and no metal tools, and i beleve there can not be enouth iron in the salt to couse the greenish color but this could be wrong...

do you maby know what is more potent the gold-chloride or the white fluff..?

i stil dont know what the brown stuff is, when i heat it i wil just turns to cool, i wil do some more experement on the brown powder, and see what it all does.

maby you know... if all ormus elements are not soluble in ph 3 hcl or if its only the iridium and gold when dryed..?

with love,

theFool
11-17-2013, 04:24 PM
hay theFool,

nice of you to post on this topic ;) :)



ok this looks itresting, i think i ruled out any contamination, im using only glass and no metal tools, and i beleve there can not be enouth iron in the salt to couse the greenish color but this could be wrong... I will try an attempt to replicate it.



do you maby know what is more potent the gold-chloride or the white fluff..? I cannot say objectively what is more potent. Are those two the same thing? I mean when you raise the pH in order to get the "white fluff" does the green color in the solution disappear? And in the opposite direction, if the white fluff is dissolved in HCl, will it turn green..



i stil dont know what the brown stuff is, when i heat it i wil just turns to cool, i wil do some more experement on the brown powder, and see what it all does. I have observed this behaviour too with some ormus precipitates, they turn from white to black upon heating.



maby you know... if all ormus elements are not soluble in ph 3 hcl or if its only the iridium and gold when dryed..?Can't comment on this too.

Wigwamman
11-18-2013, 02:05 AM
I will try an attempt to replicate it.

this would be very nice, i must say that i used 1kg of dead sea salt add once, so i do not know if this helps becaus it was very concentrated.


I cannot say objectively what is more potent. Are those two the same thing? I mean when you raise the pH in order to get the "white fluff" does the green color in the solution disappear? And in the opposite direction, if the white fluff is dissolved in HCl, will it turn green..

i was thinking if it would not be more easy for the body to take up the indevitual gold-chloride ions than it would be a crystaline oxide material. when the gold chloride enters the the blood stream that the chloride would be neutralized by the blood ph of 7.35 (if ideal) so you would have a free m-gold material in the blood, + maby we can charge it with sound in water so the water wil structurise the de m-state for a moor powerfull effect,

when i slowly added the NaOH solution and the fluff came out of it, all color in the water went away,

i will make a chloride solution of 1 half of it and and the other will stay fluff i think.. and than i wil see if the yellow greenish color wil come back, i will post the results when i have some :)


I have observed this behaviour too with some ormus precipitates, they turn from white to black upon heating.


ok this sounds intresitng.... did u ever try to desolve the black stuff in some hcl / AR i dont have any nitric acid here so can't test that, maby get me some amonium nitrate an make some sodium nitrate from it :P

with love...

theFool
11-18-2013, 03:07 PM
I finished the attempt to replicate the greenish color. I got a brown-greenish solution too! It is not much concentrated to be clearly visible, I only started with 1 teaspoon of salt, but the green color is there:

http://i56.servimg.com/u/f56/13/27/64/97/dss110.png

Before adding the strong HCl the solution was completely clear.


i was thinking if it would not be more easy for the body to take up the indevitual gold-chloride ions than it would be a crystaline oxide material. when the gold chloride enters the the blood stream that the chloride would be neutralized by the blood ph of 7.35 (if ideal) so you would have a free m-gold material in the blood
In order to ingest the green " gold-chloride" one must adjust the pH to safe levels first. Maybe the "gold-chloride" will turn into "fluff" even before one ingests it if the precipitation happens at around 4-5 pH; we can check that.


ok this sounds intresitng.... did u ever try to desolve the black stuff in some hcl / AR i dont have any nitric acid here so can't test that, maby get me some amonium nitrate an make some sodium nitrate from it :P
I have not tried any dissolution experiments with the "black stuff" that comes from sea salt. I have done dissolution experiments on ormus from carrots (it was black too, but made using a different method). It couldn't dissolve in boiling HCl, neither hot AR, neither sulfuric acid (dilute or concentrated).

The white ormus you isolated from dead sea salt is soluble in strong HCl. When you heat it, it turns black (I must replicate that too). This is peculiar thing to happen. We should check the solubility of the black stuff and if it behaves magnetically.

Wigwamman
11-18-2013, 05:08 PM
I finished the attempt to replicate the greenish color. I got a brown-greenish solution too! It is not much concentrated to be clearly visible, I only started with 1 teaspoon of salt, but the green color is there:

this is great :D very nice of you to try and replacate..


Before adding the strong HCl the solution was completely clear.

Do i understand correct that you only took 1 teaspoon of salt and desolved it in some water and than added hcl, or did you clean the Magnesum out first..?




In order to ingest the green " gold-chloride" one must adjust the pH to safe levels first. Maybe the "gold-chloride" will turn into "fluff" even before one ingests it if the precipitation happens at around 4-5 pH; we can check that.

i was thinking to make it as neutral as i can get it, and see what the color will do, or that i must make it a little acidic like ph 5,

maby i do not understand correct but way would it drop out of solution with a ph of 4-5, i would think it would stay dissolved in solution because of it solubility in water, but please tell me if i dont understand correct :)


The white ormus you isolated from dead sea salt is soluble in strong HCl. When you heat it, it turns black (I must replicate that too). This is peculiar thing to happen. We should check the solubility of the black stuff and if it behaves magnetically.

yes and no... the white ormus does dissolve in strong hcl, but it does not turn blank when heated, thats a some other brown fluff i also took out of the dead sea salt, this is like 1 gram of fluff this turns blank when heated, this brown powder also attracts water it was not covert and it very wet agean, rely interesting because its more than a drying salt would normal do.

some other thing to note when i was experimenting with some ormus gold-chloride solution that it has a melting point just before it decomposes, when decomposed it becomes black grayish, when headed it turns white,

when you have allot of the gold chloride powder you can slowly heat this in a oil bath and it will melt, once you stop heating it it will solidify in to a rock like hard but easily breakable crystal, i did this once with a small amount that i made, sort of the same way as i did now, the color of the molten gold chloride was redish to yellow when it solidify d it would turn a pale yellow color,

i will try this experiment once more with this ormus if it will work and what it will do..

with love...

theFool
11-18-2013, 11:08 PM
Do i understand correct that you only took 1 teaspoon of salt and desolved it in some water and than added hcl, or did you clean the Magnesum out first..? I did as you say, started with one teaspoon of salt, precipitated it with NaOH, washed the precipitate, dried it, then dissolved the "magnesium" by lowering the pH at 5, dried what was left undissolved and finally dissolved it at strong HCl; it became green.



maby i do not understand correct but way would it drop out of solution with a ph of 4-5, i would think it would stay dissolved in solution because of it solubility in water, but please tell me if i dont understand correct
I was thinking the same, will it stay dissolved at 4-5 pH or not. Probably it will stay dissolved, you 're right here.



yes and no... the white ormus does dissolve in strong hcl, but it does not turn blank when heated, thats a some other brown fluff i also took out of the dead sea salt, this is like 1 gram of fluff this turns blank when heated, this brown powder also attracts water it was not covert and it very wet agean, rely interesting because its more than a drying salt would normal do. It seems I misunderstood you about the black stuff. I will ask you more about it tomorrow.

By the way, I have tried to heat with a torch the white precipitate (after removing the "magnesium"). It seems that it just disappeared! I'll try to sublimate some of it so that I can prove if it really evaporates or something else going on..

Nice work :)

theFool
11-19-2013, 10:37 AM
Ok, I read again your description on how you made the brown fluff. In my case this didn't appear. This can be attributed to the much lesser quantity of salt I used. Another possible explanation might be that this brown fluff is just dirt, impurities in the salt.


when you have allot of the gold chloride powder you can slowly heat this in a oil bath and it will melt, once you stop heating it it will solidify in to a rock like hard but easily breakable crystal, How do you obtain this gold chloride in powder form? I suppose you evaporate to dryiness all the greenish solution?

Wigwamman
11-19-2013, 01:08 PM
By the way, I have tried to heat with a torch the white precipitate (after removing the "magnesium"). It seems that it just disappeared! I'll try to sublimate some of it so that I can prove if it really evaporates or something else going on..


this is great :D i will see if i can replicate that :)


Ok, I read again your description on how you made the brown fluff. In my case this didn't appear. This can be attributed to the much lesser quantity of salt I used. Another possible explanation might be that this brown fluff is just dirt, impurities in the salt.

this is what i was thinking my self this is probably the case


How do you obtain this gold chloride in powder form? I suppose you evaporate to dryiness all the greenish solution?
yes exectly like that very slow evaporation of the gold chloride solution on very low heat, when you optane the powder you wash it with water and evaporate it agean on low heat, second time the powder will clear of color, first time will be slight yellow, than collect the salt and heat it slowly, this will not work on a flame it is to hot and will break down, i did it in a oil bath of about 160-170c (i think did not measure the temp)

With love...

Wigwamman
11-19-2013, 04:43 PM
whell i have something good to add :) i am done washing the precipitate and the ph of the water is 8 - 8.5 so this should be good if i'm not incorrect ;)

so we have a greenish color gold chloride when precipitate with Sodium Hydroxide gives a fluff with a ph of 8 - 8.5
so i believe this to be a good thing :)
only its not magnetically sensitive
and i may have a theory way it is not magneticly sensitive, this is something i am working in for a while now.

ormus is everywhere in the air the soil sea water etc, but it can exist in lots of different forms, in the metal form like gold in a salt forms(Sea water) but i believe that the energy in the material is to be charged in to it, in may theory i believe that the amount of energy in the material is tanks to the crystalline structure in witch it is in or apart of.

in a metal like gold you have a crystal structure witch is very stable (Cubic) and the individual atoms of gold are used to create this crystal structure, unlike in a salt form like dead sea salt the ormus material is compacted in the crystal structure unlike that of a metal where the structure is made from the ormus, making a metal.

if u slowly evaporate the dead sea salt solution there will form a cubic salt crystal, but is not very strong because its still water soluble.

so i think the stronger a crystal bond is, the stronger the ormus material will be charged.

i found some article on doing an extraction on azomite and in the video the material was very reactive when a magnetic field was near it, the crystal structure of azomite (a mineral "Stone") is also stronger than that of a water soluble salt,

now i know you can structure water with sound or vortexing it, or intention(this is probably way the alchemist plays a big role in the quality of the material). so ma by if we can charge the gold-chlorinde "from the sea salt" with like the sound of the sun, (with is a very strong water charge method)and than when still in this structure drop it out of solution with NaHO, we can ma by make the salt extracted ormus magnetic reactive, because the atomic structure would me stronger in the water,

the ark of the covenant was also to container ormus and this was / is a big earth capacitor with snugly fits inside the pyramid's so called sacrifices,
witch would charge it with earths energy
so maby if we make a tesla coil with a harmonic or the schumann resonance frequency an use a capacitor in it with ormus ma by we can charge it this way.

dont know if someone though about this before but it is ma by possible this way..

With love...

theFool
11-19-2013, 07:02 PM
so we have a greenish color gold chloride when precipitate with Sodium Hydroxide gives a fluff with a ph of 8 - 8.5
so i believe this to be a good thing :)
Ok, now we know and the pH at which it precipitates, thats good thing, yes.

About the magnetic behaviour it is not always apparent. I have observed it in sea salt ormus once when using "method 4" to isolate ormus. Also, boiling grape juice with NaOH can give magnetic behaviour.

About charging the "gold-chloride" .. what comes in mind is to "anneal" under hydrogen atmosphere, or under vacuum.

Wigwamman
11-19-2013, 08:57 PM
Ok, now we know and the pH at which it precipitates, thats good thing, yes.

;)


About the magnetic behaviour it is not always apparent. I have observed it in sea salt ormus once when using "method 4" to isolate ormus. Also, boiling grape juice with NaOH can give magnetic behaviour.


I tried method 4 one's with the dead sea salt but it didn't work add all, i think it probably sticks to much to the magnesium hydroxide,

maybe it has to do with the higher ph in the solution that makes the ormus magnetic reactive, i believe that electro conductivity is much higher in a more basic solution... so maybe it has something to do with that..

and i find it strange behavior that it would redissolve agean,..


About charging the "gold-chloride" .. what comes in mind is to "anneal" under hydrogen atmosphere, or under vacuum.

how would one achieve this..?
maby a fused quarts flask pulling a vacuum and than heating it..?
or are there more easy ways of doing this.

theFool
11-19-2013, 09:58 PM
I tried method 4 one's with the dead sea salt but it didn't work add all, i think it probably sticks to much to the magnesium hydroxide,
I don't know if it works for dead sea salt. I have tried it onatlantic sea salt.


how would one achieve this..?
maby a fused quarts flask pulling a vacuum and than heating it..?
or are there more easy ways of doing this. Is the temperature required so high so that one has to use quartz flask? I think a common borosilicate flask, a torch and vacuum could be ok to use.

Wigwamman
11-21-2013, 08:26 PM
oky i have something new to report ;)

I found out that the ph was more or less 9 instate of 8.5, so there is still some Magnesium in there, so what i did with a small experement was drying some of de powder agean in a pan crunst it up, and added it agean to the water and slowly adding some HCL this would desolve some more magnesium, when the ph was 1 I stopped and washed it with some water, after i added hcl to the stil wet poweder and it all slowly desolved, but yet agean there is somting not desolving and it is a white fluff this the it is not a brown color but white, i will have to see what tis stuff is, some other ring to note is that the color is more yellow than green this time..


i also took some of the liquid and lowerd the ph very slowy until it was not milky anymore(milk of magnesium like), now it was more of a fluff, ph is exactly 8.5, i will isolate everything this way and see what it will all doe, ;)



Is the temperature required so high so that one has to use quartz flask? I think a common borosilicate flask, a torch and vacuum could be ok to use.

well 350c would be a good temperature i think and the max of borosilicate glass is like 300c.

first of all need to set up some vacuum setup, :P

theFool
11-23-2013, 08:46 AM
I have something to report too. It seems that the salt obtained after evaporation of the green, pH 1 solution (the "gold-chloride") is deliquescent. I had some of it dried in a flask and it has completely liquified. I'm not sure what happened, I 'll check that again.

Ghislain
11-23-2013, 08:56 AM
TF how did you dry it to begin with?

Ghislain

theFool
11-23-2013, 12:24 PM
TF how did you dry it to begin with?

Ghislain On a hotplate at around 100 degrees celsius. It was inside the flask and I left it there. After 3 days it was liquid. If I didn't drop water in there by accident (improbable), hm ..

Wigwamman
11-23-2013, 09:39 PM
On a hotplate at around 100 degrees celsius. It was inside the flask and I left it there. After 3 days it was liquid. If I didn't drop water in there by accident (improbable), hm ..

this happent to me as well, only i made a stone/crystal from it in a egg shape,(by melting it with very subtile heat) i wrap't it with cotton and put it in a metallic box,

and after a some days, it all desolved in the cotton, so it locks like its very hygroscopic. ;)

maby wrap some wax around it will stop this from happening

with love...

theFool
11-23-2013, 11:09 PM
this happent to me as well ... Yes, confirmation. The most probable answer to this observation is that we have calcium chloride, which is deiquescent. But calcium should have been dissolved in the previous step, at pH 5. .. :confused:

theFool
11-23-2013, 11:14 PM
A positive flame test for calcium ion should give a "brick red" flame, like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flammenf%C3%A4rbungCa.png
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_test

Wigwamman
11-23-2013, 11:45 PM
you can maby react it with some h2So4 this would drop the calcium out as calcium sulphate, this will not dissolve in hcl, and is slightly water soluble (0.24g/100ml) in this way you can test is ;) the calcium sulphate will look very white and is very fine, (you can rub it in your skin)

it also is not soluble "or to a small extend" in acetone (the calcium chloride) and ethanol and m-gold chloride is so thats a other test you can do ;)
although im not sure on the acetone part that the gold is soluble in it,

with love...

Wigwamman
11-24-2013, 07:06 PM
maby somting to think about..

in the book the alchemist, they mention the color of the stone witch was pale yellow and was warped in wax the elixir was a transparent colorless liquid,

well this is the same color stone that i made witch was also pale yellow and very hard but bridle, it dissolved because of its hydrocopic nature, but maby thats ware the wax was for to not let it dissolve, this is a chlorine stone and maby there are other acids to do the same thing but have a other color and a non hydroscopic properties, because there is allot of talk around the red color maby phosphoric acid or h2so4...


with love...

theFool
11-29-2013, 07:18 PM
you can maby react it with some h2So4 this would drop the calcium out as calcium sulphate, this will not dissolve in hcl, and is slightly water soluble (0.24g/100ml) in this way you can test is ;) the calcium sulphate will look very white and is very fine, (you can rub it in your skin)
That's correct, nice idea! I tried this test for calcium by dissolving some of the deliquescent salt in distilled water added battery acid, and no precipitation formed (its been two days now without any precipitation). I'll try it again later with bigger quantities of the salt.

Wigwamman
12-01-2013, 03:23 PM
That's correct, nice idea! I tried this test for calcium by dissolving some of the deliquescent salt in distilled water added battery acid, and no precipitation formed (its been two days now without any precipitation). I'll try it again later with bigger quantities of the salt.

ok this looks like it is not calsium then because that stuff likes to fall out almost instant,

i believe that some of it is still magnesium... but maybe you can test that by dissolving it in some acetone or dry ethanol,

i was going to try something to see what would happen when you have pure ormus and would add some H2so4 to see what kind of salt i would get. something like ormus sulfate or something, and see what the color would be and what the melting temperature may be, i would like to do that with phosphoric acid as well,

with love....

ghetto alchemist
12-04-2013, 01:54 AM
The Fool,
I have recently done this calcium chloride to calcium sulfate precipitation by adding sulfuric acid, when the solution is cold, it is crystal clear and stays clear indefinately.
For me, the calcium sulfate precipitate only forms when the solution is heated to near boiling.

So if you might want to redo your test with the battery acid and then apply some heat and see.

G Alchemist

theFool
12-04-2013, 10:10 AM
The Fool,
I have recently done this calcium chloride to calcium sulfate precipitation by adding sulfuric acid, when the solution is cold, it is crystal clear and stays clear indefinately.
For me, the calcium sulfate precipitate only forms when the solution is heated to near boiling.

So if you might want to redo your test with the battery acid and then apply some heat and see.

G AlchemistThanks for your input.

theFool
12-08-2013, 08:09 PM
i believe that some of it is still magnesium... but maybe you can test that by dissolving it in some acetone or dry ethanol,
Ok, I dissolved some of it in alcohol (95%). So, part of it is soluble in alcohol. Wikipedia says that magnesium chloride is soluble in alcohol. So, probably this white precipitate is a mixture of calcium chloride (deliquescence) and magnesium chloride (alcohol solubility). I will try to see if the soluble salt is deliquescent too.

theFool
12-09-2013, 07:54 AM
Ok, I dissolved some of it in alcohol (95%). So, part of it is soluble in alcohol. Wikipedia says that magnesium chloride is soluble in alcohol. So, probably this white precipitate is a mixture of calcium chloride (deliquescence) and magnesium chloride (alcohol solubility). I will try to see if the soluble salt is deliquescent too.
This salt that was dissolved in alcohol, was coagulated by evaporating the alcohol. Then, left out in the cold for one night, it got deliquescent by the morning. I tried again to see if it is calcium chloride by dissolving in distilled water and adding battery acid (also heated it this time!) but no precipitate formed. So .. it seems that this salt is a deliquescent magnesium chloride, from a chemical viewpoint.

Ghislain
12-09-2013, 04:50 PM
If that is what you have TF you might want to read this...

ANCIENT MINERALS (http://www.ancient-minerals.com/magnesium-chloride/)

Ghislain

theFool
12-10-2013, 07:18 PM
If that is what you have TF you might want to read this...

ANCIENT MINERALS (http://www.ancient-minerals.com/magnesium-chloride/)

Ghislain It is not the magnesium ion that promotes health but the substances that are carried with it. That's why the title of the article says "Ancient Minerals". If you take the magnesium from an artificial, chemical source it does not have those effects. Just my opinion, we could elaborate this more in other thread or pm :)

Wigwamman
12-15-2013, 04:13 PM
i found some nice article on separation of magnesium from calcium, and i think this could be a nice way to separate magnesium from DSS bit.ly/1k4rcaK (link)

calcium can be precipitated out by the use of H2SO4 and some heat...

i will get me self some calcium chloride to test this out, i will be back with some results soon... ;)


with love....

edit. some lab note's for if some one would like to reproduce the process.


Saturate solution DSS
Saturate solution NaCO3

add NaCO3 to DSS until no more precipitates

filter / wash
weigh this precipitate, add 50 pro-cent of this weight of CaCl2 to the in water suspended precipitate "this is maybe something to play with"

heat this solution.. "maybe need a pressure cooker"

filter and collect precipitate + wash (this should be calcium with orme meterial)

add hcl to precipitate suspended in water

dissolve all the precipitate.

add H2SO4 and the heat solution.

Cool it down..

filter and discard precipitate (this is the calcium)

reprecipitate liquid with NaHO / NaCO3 / KCO3 (this should be orme + some trace minerals )

this precipitate should not contain any calcium nor magnesium..

Wigwamman
12-17-2013, 04:09 AM
as for the post above... i do not have any calcium chloride jet...

and i was still working on some other thing :)


some interesting property of sodium bicarbonate can be used..

take some DSS and dissolve it in water,

heat this solution until it boils,
add a sodium bicabonate solution this will produce some fizzing. heat this solution until it tops fizzing (+- 1 min) and let it cool down (add some water to speed up the cooldown..)


some of the precipitate will redissolve when the solution is cooling down.. this is a good thing :)


after it all settles down you have here your magnesium carbonate and calcium carbonate
some source materials.
yhoo.it/199IgKy
yhoo.it/Ju7CXc

http://s13.postimg.org/91q9lnt07/IMG_20131217_035115.jpg

http://s13.postimg.org/u3q8zzyc7/IMG_20131217_035801.jpg

" you cant see it as well on the foto but it consists of very small flakes, the precipitate settles quite quickly. "i have some magnesium carbonate and it looks exactly the same"

filter this solution... (You can do the bicarbo stap 2x to be sure all magnesium and calcium are out of solution, but when a different precipitate forms you should stop)


make a solution of Sodium carbonate

and add it to the solution a new very fluffy precipitate will form this precipitate looks very different from the first precipitate..

http://s29.postimg.org/lxfxgfrs7/IMG_20131217_035148.jpg

http://s13.postimg.org/swlhz9mzb/IMG_20131217_035924.jpg

you can see that it looks very different from the other precipitate, it forms large flakes, and it formed a very nice bridge, it looks it is 2 layers but it is not, there is also some fluff stuck on the side of the glass cylinder, the precipitate settles quite slow this time


this precipitate would be mostly Orme... and some traces of magnesium carbonate,



With love...

Axismundi000
12-17-2013, 11:23 AM
Hopefully this is not off on a tangent.

Modern lab centrifuge, would this have use for separation. It is not a traditional Alchemical approach I admit.

theFool
12-17-2013, 11:51 AM
Thanks for sharing this process Wigwamman


some of the precipitate will redissolve when the solution is cooling down.. this is a good thing :)
I want to mention here that this is a rare thing to happen in nature. Usually salts dissolve easier in hot water, not in cold.. So when one sees an effect like this, some more investigation is required. Here you can see solubilities of various salts versus temperature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table Usually solubilities rise with higher temp, not the opposite. It seems that calcium hydroxide is one of those rare salts that dissolve better in cold water, I dont know if that can explain what Wigwamman has observed. (CaOH would probably have reacted with sodaand left out sooner. But if soda is not in an excess?..)

I have performed a similar operation with soda and DSS and I can verify what Wigwamman has observed. In my case, I have reached to a precipitate that consists of little "grains", looks like fish' eggs and sticks on the tube.

http://i56.servimg.com/u/f56/13/27/64/97/dss111.png

Upon heating with torch, it passes through a dark color and then white again. This salt attracts to magnet (strong neodymium magnet). I haven't replicated yet those observations.

Also, I would like to hint to those friends who are going to perform the operation to have an eye on the gases evolved. Probably they are not simply CO2. The carbonate is precipitated together with Mg and Ca ions, so, the nature of the rising gas remains a question to me.

Finally, it would be nice if someone try to perform the operation using sodium carbonate instead of sodium bicarbonate. A positive or neagative result could help us demistify the process. Sodium carbonate can be made by heating sodium bicarbonate (common soda) strongly.

Wigwamman
12-20-2013, 01:18 AM
well after some more experimentation,

i found that most steps above can be discarded, if you just make a salt solution en add some sodium bicarbonate to bring the ph to neutral, and than slowly heating it... after some time the water will become a bit cloudy, now remove the heat source as soon as this happens,

there will begin to form a reaction... this will go on for some time after words you will have your fluff.. filter this and redo the heating part for some more fluff,

--------

what happened in the previous post is that i headed it way to quick so the the magnesium would precipitate out.


now the theory is... the sodium bicarbonate and the salts form a buffer solution this would break apart the the magnesium chloride and calcium chloride to form a magnesium and calcium bicarbonate this is still a soluble salt with an execs of Co2 in solution, by slowly heating this solution, it will produce Co2 gas witch bubbles true the solution this will carbonizes the orme minerals and will precipitate out of solution as a orme carbonate.

to my knowledge... if one would do the urine path, and will do the dry method one would calcine at one stage in time, (book of Aquarius) now if you calcine something like distiled urine goop "for a lack of a better word" this will produce Co2 and would carbonize the orme salts.

or if one would do the salt and dew path it by setting the salt(NaCl) outside on the ground and let the dew breath in and out of it will give the salt a form Co2 boost, because the dew is distiled from the earth, and is very pure it will attract minerals out of the atmosphere and also Co2 this is combined with the dew witch is turn breathing in and out of the salt witch would precipitate the orme minerals out and wild form a fluff or gooey (becouse of the mix with the NaCl)

(not talking about the deuterium and neutron aspect of it jet)

about the carbonate material properties.. it is very resistant to heat, witch would correlate with the heat resisted calcined material that is talked about in the books.



Upon heating with torch, it passes through a dark color and then white again. This salt attracts to magnet (strong neodymium magnet). I haven't replicated yet those observations

i need a refill on my torch the stove could not get it hot enough to test this..



I want to mention here that this is a rare thing to happen in nature. Usually salts dissolve easier in hot water, not in cold.. So when one sees an effect like this, some more investigation is required. Here you can see solubilities of various salts versus temperature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table Usually solubilities rise with higher temp, not the opposite. It seems that calcium hydroxide is one of those rare salts that dissolve better in cold water, I dont know if that can explain what Wigwamman has observed. (CaOH would probably have reacted with sodaand left out sooner. But if soda is not in an excess?..)


i think what is happening is that because of the heat some of the Co2 is realest from the solution this will convert the magnesium and calcium bicarbonate in to magnesium and calcium carbonate witch is not soluble in water and will precipitate out when the solution is cooling down the Co2 out of the atmosphere is attracted to the solution and will redissolve the calcium and magnesium carbonate to form a bicarbonate agean, because of the low ph of the solution it is forced to take up Co2 from the atmosphere.

a bicarbonate can be formed by bubbling Co2 gas true a carbonate solution according to wikipedia.

i tested the precipitate to see if it was calcium, i did this by dissolving the powder in some HCL water and and added H2SO4 to is no precipitate formed, i heated this solution (until boiling) to see if it would precipitate but it did not, so i believe it not to be calcium

i also took some of the powder and took it under a microscope, buttyfull crystalline structures is seen its realy a nice look ;)
bigger picture http://trdunyam.khoai.vn/android/imageviewer.php?id=pic55114968889.jpg
http://s24.postimg.org/f2wq8othh/pic55114968889.jpg
made with a phone true a microscope the quality is not super but you can see what i mean by Crystals :)
bigger picture http://trdunyam.khoai.vn/android/imageviewer.php?id=pic689935583343.jpg
http://s17.postimg.org/48qq5m92n/pic689935583343.jpg


Axismundi000

Hopefully this is not off on a tangent.

Modern lab centrifuge, would this have use for separation. It is not a traditional Alchemical approach I admit.


i think this could work :D
i don't mind traditional things, but i thing that the the mind can create what ever it can think of and i think that is alchemy as well. so traditions are something to learn from but not something to hold on to ;)

------------ edit-----------
i forgot something imported to add, i dissolved this powder in some HCL and reprecipited it with NaHO washed it and dryed it in a ceramic pan on high fire, there emerged a brownish powder. grinned it up and backed it agean an high fire.. the resulting powder would not dissolve in a HCL solution of ph 3. i also headed some of it up on a spoon on high fire, i very white powder emerged from the brownish substance,


with love....

theFool
12-21-2013, 12:40 PM
Also, I would like to hint to those friends who are going to perform the operation to have an eye on the gases evolved. Probably they are not simply CO2. The carbonate is precipitated together with Mg and Ca ions, so, the nature of the rising gas remains a question to me. I have tried again the experiment of heating soda and DSS in a test tube with only little air left on the top of the tube. Heated it and produced the bubbles. The way to check if the evolved gas is CO2, is to immerse in it a lit toothpick. The glow will diminish or extinguish in the case of CO2 existence. In my case the toothpick was not extinguished, thus indicating that the released gas is probably common air trapped in the salt. It could be also just water vapor (unfortunatelly I haven't check the temperature of the water) or something more exotic..

Wigwamman
01-01-2014, 08:21 PM
First of all happy new year everybody,



second of all, after doing some experiments with sodium carbonate i found it to be the moost awsome stuff there is... when i precipitate DSS with NaCo3 you will have 2 precipitates you can see the differents pretty good. the thing is that the m-state precipitate is less reactive with HCL than the magnesium, so the most simple way to separate it is by adding dilute HCL to the precipitate, this will dissolve the magnesium, and you will be left with m-state.

when adding acid it bounces from a lower ph slowly up words agean if the ph is about 3-4 and the bounce time is like 1 min than the stuff you have left is pure m-state, the ph of this water above the bouced precipitate is about 8-8.5


i collected this precipitate and washed and dryed it, than i added some hcl to the precipitate to dissolve it all, adding some water to it when all is dissolved, i filter this to get all gunk out of it,

i am left with a super clear no color liquid, after slowly boiling this off i was left with a hard crystal (melting point of the powder is at about 160c "this will happen on boildown") this rocky powder was collected and grind in to a powder, this powder is very white and will dissolve in water the ungrined crystal has a bit yellow to white color , the strange thing is that this powder has a ph of about 10 when testing the powder directly, and when added to distiled water the ph is also about 10, so this is a m-state chlorine salt witch is alkaline.

this is to my knowledge quite strange that a metal chlorine salt is alkaline, but this could me my lag of knowledge.

when heating this powder on a spoon it melts and decomposes in to a brown to gray powder with the same ph 10.



this powder is for sure not magnesium nor calcium because magnesium chloride decomposition temperature, 714 °C (987 K) (on rapid heating: slow heating leads to decomposition from 300 °C)

and for calcium chloride 772 °C (anhydrous)

melting point of the above powder is about 160-190c and no more

..

with love....

theFool
01-02-2014, 07:43 AM
Finally, it would be nice if someone try to perform the operation using sodium carbonate instead of sodium bicarbonate. A positive or neagative result could help us demistify the process. Sodium carbonate can be made by heating sodium bicarbonate (common soda) strongly. I have tried this. Heated the soda bicarbonate and dissolved the soda carbonate in water. Then, upon adding it in DSS solution, it formed immediatelly a white precipitate (no bubbles at all). Heating also gave no bubbles, the reaction was over.
Some of the clear water above the precipitate was separated and was heated in a test tube. It produced a white fluffy precipitate.
Another part of the clear water was put to evaporate. I melted some of it very easily heating it in a crucible with a torch. It melted far before the crucible turns red.
In an attempt to do a blind test, I tried to melt DSS in the crucible. It melted easily and produced a vapor. I propose to capture this vapor (distill the DSS) and see what is it..

Wigwamman thanks for sharing your latest experiments, the results are more than interesting, I will attempt to catch up and verify.

Wigwamman
01-16-2014, 04:32 PM
hello my friends...


after doing allot of experiments i found for me the best way to extract DSS is with NaHO or KHO, i precipitated the white mix of minerals, and after washing one's i backed it all until all was dry on high fire in a stone pot, crushing it to a fine powder and add the white minerals to some water and slowly add a dilute solution of hcl drop by drop, this will dissolve the calcium and magnesium, after some time the solution looks free of magnesium (free of white mist) but it is not, filter this and dry it agean, now crush this to a fine powder agean and add it to the water agean, now slowly add some dilute hcl this wil agean dissolve all free magnesium and calcium, repeat this 5-6x and you will be left with a light brown precipitate witch is mostly M-state, wash this powder 5-6x and dissolve it with hcl this will give a green gold chloride "Green lion..?" after this i precipitate it with NaCO3, this would give needle like pure white crystals,


next experiment is to add some of this crystals to some high content deuterium water, Dew water collected ad the full moon,

and set it aside ad about 51-52c in a long neck round bottom flask, in the neck i will put some wettable material to increase surface contact, this will enrich the water with more deuterium, (frictional distillation)

i found some interesting articles on the ratio of deuterium in water. the it seems to be so that deuterium and water only whant to exist in that ratio 1 : 5000 molls, and if one would increase the amount of deuterium in the water, it will try to get the same equilibrium back of 1 : 5000 this can be done by attracting water or be losing the deuterium in free solution, this method is used to extract deuterium on a large scale, now this is interesting,

if the one would hermetically seal a flask with some m-state material and some high contend deuterium water one could fantasize that the deuterium would like to go back to equilibrium of 1 : 5000, it cant lose its extra light water because of the hermetically sealed flask so the deuterium has to go some ware, and probable would like to bond with the m-state, witch gives something like deuterated M-state. "red lion..?"

im not sure on what form of m-state to use a carbonate or the Hydro oxide NaCO3 or NaHO, or maybe even a Hydrocarbonate like NaHCO3 on a chemical stand point i would say i wold use the Hydro oxide version becouse of the easy swap that could take place with the Hydrogen and deuterium, but not sure one this, maybe some has some i deers on this..

with love ...

Ghislain
01-16-2014, 06:27 PM
Hi Wigwamman

Do you have any pics of this green lion?

I would love to see them and of course the red if it works.

Ghislain

Wigwamman
01-16-2014, 08:03 PM
hi Ghislain,

i will try tomorrow "with some more light" to get it on picture, its hard to tel on camera, on camera it looks more yellow to greenish, but it is a defendant green with the eye,

i hope tomorrow with some sunlight it will look better on camera, so i will post back soon,


with love...

Wigwamman
01-17-2014, 04:46 PM
hi Ghislain,

well i tried to get it on pic but is just still looks more yellow than green on the pic, this is quite interesting btw...
http://s10.postimg.org/koztouo6x/IMG_20140117_162547.jpg
http://s2.postimg.org/k7kzcr3a1/IMG_20140117_162618.jpg


i found some nice info on a nice chemical named sodium deuteroxide is is like sodium hydroxide but the hydrogen is replaced with deuterium, if one would precipitate with this you will probably get a m-state deuteroxide,

after mush though i do think that adding only deuterium will not create the red stone, i think its a stabilizer of the monomer "m-state"

i have read some articles that state that deuterium cantoning molecules do react mush slower than when there is normal hydrogen in the molecule,

deuterium will slow down neutrons tremendously, it is used as a neutron moderator in nuclear reactors to slow down the high energy neutrons,

if the red stone is made by neutron capture than the it would form a 198AU isotope, because if you add a neutron to 197au you will get 198au but will undergo beta decay to form a isotope of mercury (Hg)

but if deuterium is added to the molecule it may be able to slow down its decay and and so stabilize the 198au,

and if the constant of deuterium oxide is high in solution than it will in the sens slow down neutrons "from background radiation" and allow capture off them by the m-state "197au" to form 198au,
just as in a nuclear reactor, watch this vid it gives in simple terms what i am explaning..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U6Nzcv9Vws

this could explain way the powder would became more heavy as is sad in the alchemical texts
because deuterium oxide is 2x as heavy as light water and when a extra neutron is added to the m-state id will become more heavy as well,

it may even be possible to capture some extra neutron on the deuterium witch is bonded to the m-state and make a tritium compound,

this is still a work in progress... so i hope to get back with some good results...

with love...

Ghislain
01-18-2014, 09:47 AM
I know the problem WWM, getting the right light to get a true representation of what you see into a pic can be awkward.

Ghislain

Wigwamman
02-10-2014, 11:42 PM
haha yes it is.... Ghislain


i found that it still content allot of magnesium.. so i did some small experiment and this look absolutely amazing !!!

i precipitated one half of the solution with NaCO3 and this formed a nice precipitate but still contained magnesium, the other half i Neutralized with Baking soda (NaHCO3) and slowly brought up to Ph 8 - 8.5,

this wil not precipitate anything at first, but when left for some days beautiful crystals will form in the jar, on top of the the water will flowed a thin crystal layer and on the bottom will form transparent crystals, after filtration en washing it some times, when dry it will look like very thin / fine crystalline power, this powder is very shiny and reflective . i will upload a picture soon, this powder has a strong M-state effect, very subtile, and i do not need allot of it.. i only take about 2.5mm of the back of a tea spoon...


this trick works quite well as well when i use just DSS and some water and than adding baking soda i only need to do it 2 or 3 times.. magnesium and calcium should chemically speaking not precipitate out but it does is some extend, this is probably because the m-state takes it out when it precipitates, but after doing this 2 - 3 times it will be as clean as Crystals :P

i also found that the green gold chloride is only green when there is allot of NaCl in solution...!!

With Love...

theFool
02-11-2014, 03:06 PM
... the other half i Neutralized with Baking soda (NaHCO3) and slowly brought up to Ph 8 - 8.5,

this wil not precipitate anything at first, but when left for some days beautiful crystals will form in the jar, on top of the the water will flowed a thin crystal layer and on the bottom will form transparent crystals, after filtration en washing it some times, when dry it will look like very thin / fine crystalline power, this powder is very shiny and reflective . i will upload a picture soon, this powder has a strong M-state effect, very subtile, and i do not need allot of it.. i only take about 2.5mm of the back of a tea spoon...
I have also seen the formation of two transparent crystals in one of my solutions standing for some time. I found the phenomenon interesting but haven't tested their potency.

theFool
09-13-2014, 07:07 PM
Procedure:
Two teaspoons of DSS were dissolved in minimum water and 2ml of hydrochloric acid (azeotropic) were added. The solution was evaporated to dryiness and then extracted with 95% alcohol. The green coloration was obvious at the first solution but also in the alcoholic solution.
The alcoholic extract was evaporated and a white salt remained. I believe this to be an easy method for concentrating ormus from DSS.


It has those properties:
- Turns grey when heated.
- When dissolved in water and slowly evaporated at low heat it forms a solid that melts at around 30 degrees C (similar to calcium chloride hexahydrate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_chloride)). It melts on hand and feels like butter.
- It has a stinging, bitter taste like calcium chloride does.
- It is deliquescent.
- A flame test on it gives a flame color indicative of calcium element (similar to what CaCl2 gives).
But:
- It does not form a precipitate when mixed with sulfuric acid (calcium chloride precipitates as gypsum)
- It does not precipitate fully when potassium carbonate is added. It precipitates when heated. Anyway if you ever try to precipitate it that way, you will see it behaves very strangely and you will understand what I talk about (probably this is a method to purify it further). Addition of NaOH will not precipitate anyting from the clear part. It seems like a part of it attaches to K2CO3 (visible by heat, tasty*) and part of it precipitates.

So, it seems to be a form of calcium chloride with some of its properties seriously altered... I have no idea why.
What comes in mind is that possible Mg ions prevent the calcium from precipitating as CaSO4 when sulfuric acid added (but it seems very improbable, I can check it easily soon). So, if there are any ideas on what this salt could and what test to perform next, you are welcome.

*evaporated residue is soluble in acetone, gives greenish residue. (KCl, MgCO3, MgOH, K2CO3 are insoluble but CaCl2 is soluble).
It is insoluble in naptha.

elixirmixer
10-15-2016, 05:34 AM
I was making some ormus from epson and hymalayan today with a friend, and because i wanted a really consentracted solution of salt, i boiled the water first to get everything happening. Then, because im the real deal harry potter, i stirred the solution in a very special way, creating vortex's in the solutions both salt and NaCO3.

The amazing thing, and to my surprise, is that instead on taking a day and night to settle out properly, it went VERY cloudy, because of how much salt i used, and then all settled to the bottom within the hour, greatly speeding up the process of creating the ormus.

Yep, in my opinion, boiling water speeds up your ormus extraction times.

Andro
10-15-2016, 06:05 AM
boiling water speeds up your ormus extraction times.

Quite likely. I don't have much experience with 'ormus', but boiling seems to speed up a few processes.


consentracted

I must get that dictionary you're using, mine is apparently outdated :)

elixirmixer
10-15-2016, 06:41 AM
Consentracted - adj. Origin; aussie bogan shorthand, meaning; The state when your concentration is being distracted by viral contraction

Consentracted