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Andro
11-17-2013, 06:50 PM
Wallace D. Wattles is apparently best (un)known for penning 'The Science of Getting Rich', which Rhonda Byrne later built upon, expanded and - IMO - prostituted into 'The Secret' and 'The Power'. Wallace is probably even more unknown for writing 'The Science of Being Great' and 'The Science of Being Well'.

While 'The Science of Being Well' should theoretically belong to Body Matters because is basically deals with health, I am posting it here because his proposed way (in all his books) is 'Mind Over Matter'.

What I find most interesting is that his foundation is clearly a hermetic one, since he plainly employs and refers to the Universal Spirit (which we call 'Spiritus Mundi' in Alchemy). You only have to listen to the first 5-10 minutes of the Audiobook below to see this.

For example, quoting from the intro:


There is a Principle of Life in the Universe.
It is the One Living Substance from which all things are made.
This Living Substance permeates, penetrates and fills the inter-spaces of the Universe.
It is in and through all things, like a very refined and diffusible ether.
All life comes from it. Its life is all the life there is.

Wallace may sound a bit naive and dogmatic in his approach, but maybe it's me who's culturally biased... He uses christian lingo in his books and was very influenced by the 'New Thought' school of thought :)

Wallace wasn't particularly rich, he was physically quite frail and died at the age of 51.

Here's the subtitled Audiobook, in case anyone is interested:

The Science of Being Well (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uroPmeOXcCU)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uroPmeOXcCU

Andro
11-17-2013, 06:59 PM
Here are Wallace's two other books in audio form:

The Science of Getting Rich (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrRPeuADvNM)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrRPeuADvNM

The Science of Being Great (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k70DA2ofdSo)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k70DA2ofdSo

Andro
12-27-2013, 04:31 AM
This thread deals with Authors and works from the New Thought (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Thought) 'movement' (for lack of a better term :)).

Authors include Ralph Waldo Emerson, Joseph Murphy, Emmet Fox, Wallace Wattles, Napoleon Hill, Charles F. Haanel and others.

'New Thought' is basically the pioneering platform on which all modern/current day coaching and motivational books and speakers are based on.

(Joe Vitale, Tony Robbins, Louise Hay and others, and including the over-hyped 'The Secret').

What I find extremely interesting in New Thought are the strong Alchemical/Hermetic ties and philosophy.

Almost every work refers to the Universal Mind/Spirit (perhaps better known to us here as 'Spiritus Mundi (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2071-Spiritus-Mundi)') as the the ultimate underlying reality of everything.

I've grown fond of reading New Thought Authors, such as Wattles and Hill, but the best one I have found to date is 'The Master Key System' by Charles Haanel.

It's VERY Alchemical in outlook, although it kind of dismisses traditional lab alchemy in the last chapter, mistakenly interpreting its real goal as metallic transmutation.

Also, I've grown fond of the Audio-Book format - It doesn't tire my eyes and if I wanted to read all the books I want to, it would probably weaken my eyes to the point of needing glasses...

So I'm listening to Audio-Books from the New Thought school, and I HIGHLY recommend The Master Key System by Charles Haanel (because of the strong Alchemical implications).

You can either find the PDF online (the book is in the public domain), or listen to it on YouTube as an Audio-Book.

The first option is to listen as a single file HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMWvEpSC6fY), but it's read by an automated voice - with the advantage of containing the Q&A section with every chapter.

The second Audio option is to go to the YouTube playlist HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfZ75CP7M4o&list=PL2C1E131DA28287AB) and listen to an actual human reading it, but without the Q&A sections, which are not THAT important IMO anyway.

You could also do as I did and locate a torrent with which you can download the PDF and human reading in one go, so you can keep it on your computer without having to rely on YouTube.

In any case, I highly recommend this book. Very Alchemical and beneficiary in many ways.

Awani
12-27-2013, 05:13 AM
Have not read any, but I did see The Secret movie... although I already knew about the law of attraction etc. What I always thought was stupid about the movie is that all the examples of desires (things you should want to attract) was always money or a fancy car... the most stupid things in the world!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbS9jZOlQjc

I always try to use the law of attraction... and it works... but it is a double-edge sword... negative thoughts manifest as well. So beware!

:cool:

Andro
12-27-2013, 08:07 AM
I wouldn't bother with the whole 'The Secret' hype. It's over-hyped and has money as the main focus.

It's also terribly lacking in the deeper spiritual implications. (IMO)

The older 'New Thought' works (early to mid 20th century) are more balanced.

Also, none of those (old or new) tell you about the 'darker' sides of this system.

Just got off skype with Dev, and I mentioned those 'darker' sides that the books and lectures don't talk about...

Lunsola
12-28-2013, 11:17 AM
The darker side definitely exists. The more recent works often boast great results and focus on only positive things but that's deception. Whether they realize that or not I can not say but it's giving the wrong message. Negativity or darkness is a part of reality and can not be completely removed. There are universal truths and laws that can be bent with wisdom and power but not broken.

Compensation or equivalence is required. It's basically just cause and effect but many people never prepare for it. It's not accepted as a fact because people can't always see the price they pay for something. Effects are not always instant.

As for me I just do what I want but with wisdom. I don't usually try to force things, I just let them flow naturally.

Andro
12-28-2013, 12:08 PM
The darker side definitely exists.

'New Thought' heavily promotes kindness, tolerance, a pleasant demeanor, striving for win-win situations (helping others achieve success as well), etc...

And YET -

Some of the people that Napoleon Hill serves as examples for this 'system' were in many ways deeply disturbed, obsessively-compulsively profit oriented (unbalanced) and even borderline psychopaths.

I mean... Carnegie? Henri Ford? Edison? Woodrow Wilson? Gimme a break :)

Ford (for example) was one of the most racist/prejudiced/intolerant/unpleasant people in the world of 'successful' finance...


“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and money system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”

-Henry FordEdison was a fucking thief (allegedly :)).

Carnegie treated workers like the scum of the earth, and thought he could later make it all better with 'Philanthropy'.

Wilson basically sold out America to the private Fed.


“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

-Woodrow WilsonNow don't get me wrong, I am NOT passing value judgement on these people.

Some of these people are ultimately behind the great technological and industrial advances of this civilization (not sure if this should be labeled a 'good' thing, though...)

But they are NOT the New Thought 'Poster Boys' they were made up to be.

I'm just saying there is another side to this sugarcoated packaged system, obviously not as marketable as the 'lighter' sides :)

I even suspect that Ayn Rand based her 'Hank Rearden' character from Atlas Shrugged on Andrew Carnegie...

And Ayn Rand was a control freak amphetamine junkie and also homophobic and intolerant in her more inner circle, yet her impact on modern schools of thought is undeniable.

The 'New Thought' philosophy can come across as quite alright as presented, I just doubt it was EVER implemented as advertized :)

This whole area seems very grey all of a sudden, when comparing the Ideology with its Application. Deja-Vu anyone?

One good point it makes is the fact that we do have power over our minds/thoughts, and with a little willpower we are able to program/re-program them to a large extent.

There is also much emphasis on money in 'New Thought', especially with the more contemporary 'New Thought' authors.

However, if we look at tribal native societies - they apparently did quite well without money and welfare.

To Dev: I don't want to misquote you, so maybe (if so inclined) you could repeat what you told me the other day on Skype about native tribal voluntarism...

III
12-28-2013, 05:43 PM
I was troubled by that whole group of books. They all were flawed in a way I wasn't able to describe at the time. As mentioned intolerance was rampant through out the books. The primary focus, money, was twisted. They all would have disposed of the mystical/spiritual folks as not being the obviously superior money folks. Then to put the cap on the thinking, as if not already done, we got WINNING THROUGH INTIMIDATION and Looking out for #1 (how to grab everything before the other guy does) and other masterpieces by Robert Ringer. It all leads to Gecko and GREED IS GOOD.

I was never able to finish Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. It was too nauseating. It clearly can't work on a society wide basis. The sharks need a large pool of "feeders" to consume. I found all those "New Thought" books to be just a thinly disguised "Let's play robber barons and commoners". They were just adapting some of our language of change to continue ripping off the masses. HOLIDAY MAGIC, a company that whole heartedly adopted the sort of Napoleon Hill does Ponzi in building the first sky rocket multilevel marketing scheme. The sales trainers mixed the language of Napoleon Hill and AA. They manipulated people with guilt for not being willing to shout "ME" and to grab and run with all they can get. They left a long line of damaged people behind them, damaged by hating themselves for not being able to bring themselves to rip off their follow humans efficiently enough for them to "get rich" while the multitude of suckers got poor. .

Andro
12-28-2013, 06:15 PM
III,

While I generally agree with your points, I don't see this 'system' as a complete negative.

There are some good/constructive points/principles in this philosophy, at least in the way it is enunciated.

The big irony IMO is that the people who actually lived up to the higher principles (innovation, tolerance, compassion, creating value, etc) ended up in poverty and misery, usually ripped off and/or discredited/killed by the ones who 'played ball' with the darker side and made the headlines of official history. I'm referring to people like Tesla, Rife, Reich, Milk - just to name a few.

Most of the new (so called) 'anarcho-capitalists' have zero interest in creating value/innovation and are exclusively profit driven.
(As in: Buy low, sell high and promote useless subscriptions. Every word out of their mouths is a sales pitch.)

I've studied quite a bit of 'New Thought' materials lately, and there are a few points I'll be taking home. But definitely not the whole lock, stock and quarrel...

Awani
12-28-2013, 06:40 PM
I was never able to finish Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged.

I always find myself defending Rand's book. People seem to confuse Rand capitalism with current capitalism (which is something she is , in that book, clearly against).

I mainly see Atlas as a fiction with some philosophical morals attached nothing more. In this context I really like the point she makes that only the creative and committed and active should reap the rewards, and not the vampires. Which brings me to...



To Dev: I don't want to misquote you, so maybe (if so inclined) you could repeat what you told me the other day on Skype about native tribal voluntarism...

Imagine we all lived 10 000 years ago. Everyone in the tribe goes fishing/hunting... one person is blind so the other people give him fish out of compassion. Another person sits on his ass too lazy to work. Will he be provided with a fish or will he starve? 10 000 years ago all those living on other peoples effort would starve to death.

Do you see a lion collect welfare just because there ain't enough game?

I don't mean we should not help those less fortunate... but the % of people who are NOT capable to take care of themselves are about 1 % ONLY of all the people who today receive money from the State. This working class hero bullshit is propaganda created by the non-working class. What better way to keep the slaves being slaves if they think that being a slave is something to be proud about... ha ha ha!

People forget what WORK is.

Work is two things only:

1. a way to get essentials; food, clothes, roof
2. creation (creative efforts... the only thing that separates us from animals... a human being that is NOT creative in any way or form, IMO, is dead)

In modern society we have confused WORK with MONEY. We work so we can work, we don't work so we can truly live!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CId2GPpIge0



Work - song about Andy Warhol

Andy was a Catholic
The ethic ran through his bones
He lived alone with his mother
Collecting gossip and toys

Every Sunday when he went to Church
He'd kneel in his pew and he'd say
It's work all that matters is work

He was a lot of things
What I remember the most he'd say
I've got to bring home the bacon
Someone's got to bring home the roast

He'd get to the factory early
If you'd ask him
He'd have told you straight out
It's work

No matter what I did it never seemed enough
He said I was lazy, I said I was young
He said, "How many songs did you write"
I'd written zero, I'd lied and said, "Ten"

You won't be young forever
You should have written fifteen
It's work

You ought to make things big
People like it that way
And the songs with the dirty words
Make sure your record them that way

Andy liked to stir up trouble
He was funny that way
He said, "It's just work"

Andy sat down to talk one day
He said, "Decide what you want
Do you want to expand your parameters
Or play museums like some dilettante"

I fired him on the spot, he got red and he called me a rat
It was the worst word that he could think of
And I've never seen him like that, it's work
I thought he said it's just work

Andy said a lot of things
I stored them all away in my head
Sometimes when I can't decide what I should do
I think what would Andy have said

He'd probably say, "You think too much
That's 'cause there's work that you don't want to do"
It's work, the most important thing is work
It's work, the most important thing is work

:cool:

III
12-30-2013, 05:01 AM
I always find myself defending Rand's book. AlPeople seem to confuse Rand capitalism with current capitalism (which is something she is , in that book, clearly against).

I mainly see Atlas as a fiction with some philosophical morals attached nothing more. In this context I really like the point she makes that only the creative and committed and active should reap the rewards, and not the vampires. Which brings me to...


Imagine we all lived 10 000 years ago. Everyone in the tribe goes fishing/hunting... one person is blind so the other people give him fish out of compassion. Another person sits on his ass too lazy to work. Will he be provided with a fish or will he starve? 10 000 years ago all those living on other peoples effort would starve to death.

Do you see a lion collect welfare just because there ain't enough game?

I don't mean we should not help those less fortunate... but the % of people who are NOT capable to take care of themselves are about 1 % ONLY of all the people who today receive money from the State. This working class hero bullshit is propaganda created by the non-working class. What better way to keep the slaves being slaves if they think that being a slave is something to be proud about... ha ha ha!

People forget what WORK is.

Work is two things only:

1. a way to get essentials; food, clothes, roof
2. creation (creative efforts... the only thing that separates us from animals... a human being that is NOT creative in any way or form, IMO, is dead)

In modern society we have confused WORK with MONEY. We work so we can work, we don't work so we can truly live!


:cool:


I always find myself defending Rand's book. AlPeople seem to confuse Rand capitalism with current capitalism (which is something she is , in that book, clearly against).


AlPeople , I'm not sure what you meant here. However, I'm aware of the period context etc. My girlfriend in college was one of the "Objectivists"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)
Objectivism is a philosophical system that originated as the personal philosophy of Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_people)-born American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_United_States) writer Ayn Rand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand) (1905–1982).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)#cite_note-1) First developed in her novels and polemical essays,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)#cite_note-2) it was later given more formal structure by her designated intellectual heir,[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)#cite_note-3) philosopher Leonard Peikoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Peikoff), who characterizes it as a "closed system" that is not subject to change.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)#cite_note-4)

Objectivism's central tenets are that reality exists independent of consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness), that human beings have direct contact with reality through sense perception, that one can attain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept) formation and inductive logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_logic), that the proper moral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality) purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happiness) (rational self-interest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_egoism)), that the only social system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_system) consistent with this morality is one that displays full respect for individual rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_and_group_rights) embodied in laissez-faire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire) capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism), and that the role of art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art) in human life is to transform humans' metaphysical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics) ideas by selective reproduction of reality into a physical form—a work of art—that one can comprehend and to which one can respond emotionally.

Academia generally ignored or rejected her philosophy, but it has been a significant influence among libertarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism) and American conservatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism_in_the_United_States).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)#cite_note-politicalinfluence-5) The Objectivist movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_movement) which Rand founded attempts to spread her ideas, both to the public and in academic settings.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)#cite_note-reception-6)


I mainly see Atlas as a fiction with some philosophical morals attached nothing more. In this context I really like the point she makes that only the creative and committed and active should reap the rewards, and not the vampires. Which brings me to...

I see her point, find the Objectivist philosophy quite lacking as well as totally not understanding consciousness. I found Atlas Shrugged essentially unreadable.

About 10,000 years ago (not the great historical bum), the child mortality rate prior to 5 years old was about 50%. 20% of women died at first childbirth. Smallpox swept through each 5-7 years killing 33% (Variola major) of those infected or who had no one to nurse them through it.

This was just the good old fashioned natural culling. Not a single bit of it was at all responsive to not being lazy or a vampire or anything else personal.

1. a way to get essentials; food, clothes, roof
2. creation (creative efforts... the only thing that separates us from animals... a human being that is NOT creative in any way or form, IMO, is dead)

In applying that to the practice of Alchemy:
continue to Chop wood, carry water.
those who do not do their work creative of the Eternal soul are dead.


The farther away we get from half or more born dying before reproduction to 2 percent doing so now with almost all born surviving because the biologically 50% weakest aren't eliminated by all sorts of diseases and infections and accidents.

I would not have survived childhood without antibiotics.

The explosion in population in feedback with the industrial revolution pushed efficiency ever higher. After the job implosion of the banker's crash, or any other cause, this very fragile system is subject to all kinds of secondary crashes. So, to get rid of the 20% excess labor let them starve to death? Or wait for a murderous flu or MRSA to do it to us?

I don't have any answers on how to change our culturally produced economic population ecology but it isn't anything as simplistic as what one might derive from Ayn Rand. And the simplistic "everybody goes fishing" wasn't the model. By tribal times there was quite a bit of specialization. Some people caught the fish and some cleaned and set them up on drying racks and so on. Everybody worked however. All the effort everybody doing their best was needed for survival on thin margins. The difference is that the great deadly plagues and physical disasters and so forth have been replaced by great chronic disease plagues and industrial and business catastrophes.

Awani
12-30-2013, 05:46 AM
More women die from childbirth than from HIV, malaria and TBC today in the world. So not much has changed on that front.

Also there will always be problems and trials to get through. Life ain't easy. I just don't like this working class mentality that it is all the 'rich' peoples fault and that 'the state' has to fix MY problems. Blame can only be cast on the self. If no one is behaving like a victim all bullies will be out of a job.

Finally I tried to point out in what way I saw that book to make it clear I was not defending Objectivism, seems like I failed. As far as Atlas being unreadable I guess you have not read it? If that is the case I can't really take an argument seriously that is not based on a direct experience.

A few years ago I joined an Objectivism forum to see what the big deal was. Everyone there was an asshole that refused to think critical of Rand's work. It reminded me of fundamentalist christians the way they thought and behaved.

:cool:

Awani
12-30-2013, 05:59 AM
AlPeople , I'm not sure what you meant here.

Supposed to say People seem to confuse Rand capitalism with current capitalism... and by people I mean everyone I have talked to critical of Atlas.


So, to get rid of the 20% excess labor let them starve to death? Or wait for a murderous flu or MRSA to do it to us?

What excess labor? There is none. If a human being actually is an excess. If one human being does not do anything, brings nothing to the table... is basically an empty shell then YES sure death is perhaps the best way to deal with left-overs... but most people are not, or they think they are but are unknowingly doing very important things.

:cool:

III
12-30-2013, 06:49 AM
More women die from childbirth than from HIV, malaria and TBC today in the world. So not much has changed on that front.

Also there will always be problems and trials to get through. Life ain't easy. I just don't like this working class mentality that it is all the 'rich' peoples fault and that 'the state' has to fix MY problems. Blame can only be cast on the self. If no one is behaving like a victim all bullies will be out of a job.

Finally I tried to point out in what way I saw that book to make it clear I was not defending Objectivism, seems like I failed. As far as Atlas being unreadable I guess you have not read it? If that is the case I can't really take an argument seriously that is not based on a direct experience.

A few years ago I joined an Objectivism forum to see what the big deal was. Everyone there was an asshole that refused to think critical of Rand's work. It reminded me of fundamentalist christians the way they thought and behaved.

:cool:


I made it most of the way through. I left it at school when I went home for Christmas vacation. I always found something else I had to do instead and never got back.
to it. As a novel it completely failed to hook my interest. There was an "Objectivist" pod on campus. I went once, it was more than enough. It was a mutual admiration society. My girl friend dropped out quickly. It didn't come up to her standards. She never mentioned them again and let her newsletter subscription lapse. I agree, it looks a lot like fundamentalist Christian.

Awani
12-30-2013, 06:53 AM
I agree that the first 25 % is not as good, takes a while to get into it... but I got properly hooked around 40 % in...

:cool:

III
12-30-2013, 07:45 AM
Supposed to say People seem to confuse Rand capitalism with current capitalism... and by people I mean everyone I have talked to critical of Atlas.



What excess labor? There is none. If a human being actually is an excess. If one human being does not do anything, brings nothing to the table... is basically an empty shell then YES sure death is perhaps the best way to deal with left-overs... but most people are not, or they think they are but are unknowingly doing very important things.

:cool:



Also there will always be problems and trials to get through. Life ain't easy. I just don't like this working class mentality that it is all the 'rich' peoples fault and that 'the state' has to fix MY problems. Blame can only be cast on the self. If no one is behaving like a victim all bullies will be out of a job.

You know, I've dealt with people with problems through the years, a lot of them "working class" and have never heard this so often quoted "mentality" of "'rich' peoples fault ..." from anybody actually stating/believing it except as a much repeated myth. And I have heard it repeated in most nasty ways. It has attained urban legend status like the welfare mom with 186 kids under 18 and a fleet of Cadillac limos for all of them.

Seriously though, bullies go after the vulnerable. How many truly invulnerable folks do you know? Do I think everybody has what it takes to create value? I don't know. How many successful Alchemists are there in the world? I don't know that one either.

Awani
12-30-2013, 07:58 AM
Well maybe it is because you ain't living in a socialist state that you have not heard this mentality? He he.

:cool:

Andro
12-30-2013, 12:29 PM
Do I think everybody has what it takes to create value? I don't know.

My answer is twofold:

Everyone, without exception, carries the 'Earthly' Seed/Magnet to Attract the 'Heavenly' Universal and subsequently generate New Value & counter Entropy.

However...

In most cases, this Magnet (that we ALL possess) remains dormant unless consciously prepared (via Thought, Word, and Deed) to have Affinity for the Universal Mind/Mover/Spirit and subsequently attract its manifestation in one's life, so the Seed may be activated/awakened. See the 'Sleeping Beauty' story. Think of software requiring its activation code :)

This is (in my understanding) Alchemy 101. High Alchemy is about New Generation, not separation and re-combination (redistribution?) of what's already in this world :)

It's the two Vases of Cyliani, one containing the dormant 'Androgynous Seed Matter' and the other one containing the 'Astral Spirit' from 'The Other Side'.

The latter needs to be imbibed upon the former, as per Cyliani.
This would correspond with the 'Marriage' between 'Heaven' and 'Earth'.
Following this logic, the vast majority of people are single :p and inert/In-Earth/'dead'.


How many successful Alchemists are there in the world? I don't know that one either.

I could be a smart-ass and say 'Zero', because truly/fully successful Alchemists are not really 'in the world' anymore, not by common definitions, anyway.

But if you're asking for a number, to the best of the knowledge of my sources, I can offer a subjective estimate of around a few hundreds.

Also:

While mentioning Cyliani (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1725-Cyliani) (the Alchemist/Author of 'Hermes Unveiled (http://www.rexresearch.com/alchemy3/cyliani.htm)') in the context of New Thought and political/class implications, here's what he has to say on the subject:


Flee the corrupt of society. They have all the means to abuse your qualities.
They would seem ruined by their promises that seem to flow from a good heart, but they become rich by making you their dupe.
In few words, do not seek happiness in life from the two extremes of society. Seek it in the middle class, from honest industrialists.

In contemporary context, he seems to suggest to stay away from 'royalty' and corporate statism, as well as from the emerging non-producing socialist generation of entitlement.

III
12-30-2013, 07:18 PM
I could be a smart-ass and say 'Zero', because truly/fully successful Alchemists are not really 'in the world' anymore, not by common definitions, anyway.

But if you're asking for a number, to the best of the knowledge of my sources, I can offer a subjective estimate of around a few hundreds.


Hi Androgynus,

I would tend to agree with you on both counts. Coming up with something genuinely new, especially, a macro superset as opposed to a unique microset, is incredibly rare. However, in this as many things, size isn't the issue. As each and every one of these "new" creations is impossible until they are done, one is forever changed by the doing. As the creation evolves, there is greater complexity. That makes for the potential of lots of previously impossible (never previously defined) micro-changes in the "blank" areas.

And I know I have done a poor job of actually describing what I mean.

Applying this to money and power seems to be corrupting. One can "play" for all sorts of stakes. It is the "energy" structures we build by whatever way we engage, that ends up being the important thing. The money and so on are only side effects. When the side effects become the object, the process often becomes corrupted. A cooperative process is less dangerous than a competitive one. However, one must be playing for "real" stakes, there is always risk to change.

III
12-30-2013, 07:58 PM
Well maybe it is because you ain't living in a socialist state that you have not heard this mentality? He he.

:cool:
n

Hi Dev,

Well, that could be. "When the idle poor become the idle rich, you will never know who is who or who is which..." Finian's Rainbow.

I spent my working life working with group health and other businesses, always with people who are working. I have never associated with either the idle rich or idle poor. The only idle poor I have known are disabled and they are struggling to get effective health care.

For 41 years I wasn't ALLOWED to BUY health insurance because some idiot ran through a red light and broke me in half sideways. My partner hasn't been allowed to BUY health insurance for the last 8 years for much the same reason. She has finally been allowed to basically in spite of the "over my dead body" protestors (in USA republicans) that have fought against just any body being allowed to buy health insurance. Why do they want to create a permanent underclass of working people not allowed to buy insurance so even a relatively minor injury means a bankrupt and impoverished life for them and their family? I got Medicare by virtue of age 11 months ago.

And it is this group that is so savagely attacked as being freeloaders and lazy. Using that kind of nonsense a rational medical care system has been kept away from the USA for 50 years creating generations of families unable to participate in the healthcare system. The fight wasn't about "who" would pay. It was fought against via every possible argument no matter how horrific it appears in retrospect. It included mostly people able to pay their way until their health failed, often for lack of access to medical care. Then they were vilified for being sick and poor. It seems that those playing by the "new thought" beliefs became thoroughly corrupted. "By their works you will know them". They had to have an underclass.

That underclass couldn't be because of skin color because of laws passed. That has been going out of style for decades now. That is happening to the gays right now. It is no longer "permissible" to make some group a permanent underclass by sexual preference. And now, part of the permanent underclass of the uninsured is no longer going to be penalized as long as they are not yet disabled. However, for those not able to pay their way because of disability, still will have what little they have removed for very inferior medical coverage.

So why do so many followers of "new thought" work so hard to keep knocking down a permanent underclass to exploit. They play it like a zero sum game, "I can only win if I can make lots of other lose.

Awani
12-31-2013, 12:43 AM
What is and what should be are alas not the same thing. I have no problem with a society that aids the disabled. I do have a problem with helping the self-inflicted disabled people i.e. alcoholics, lazy, low-self esteemed, depressed etc etc. All these things are personal problems that the INDIVIDUAL has to take care of or be helped by his or her parents or friends (in an ideal world)... in short people who feel sorry for themselves BUT compared to people who really have REAL problems like for example a guy I met in India who only owned a pair of underwear and multiple lumps all over his body. This individual would be happy to have a 'low-self esteem problem' compared to his horrible reality he faced everyday without food, extreme poverty and with pain. If you get my point.

I can only speak of Europe, a place where WE are very very fortunate. If you are a physically healthy person there is no reason, no reason at all, to be in need of any assistance if you are in the EU. Life is a personal responsibility, not the responsibility of society, church or state. Such paternal systems will NEVER aid only weaken such an individual. IMO.

These views does not exclude compassion for the less fortunate, but compassion can come in many forms and the current form it arrives in does not help, it only makes it comfortable to be a 'person in need'. I have been depressed, I have had low-self esteem, I have been suicidal but without the aid of anyone else but myself I have managed to pull myself together and survive and rise above such petty problems. I am not Superman, so I feel (from direct experience) that if I can do it so can anyone else with similar psychological issues. And ADHD (and similar disorders) are bullshit.

And if you still can't do it on your own I suggest a healthy dose of psychedelic mushrooms... ;)

:cool:

Andro
12-31-2013, 04:17 PM
The main point I'd like to make with this post is that IMO, 'New Thought' can be an extremely empowering and enlightening philosophy when applied as originally conceived.

Sadly, this is probably never the case with any philosophy or ideology. Almost everything tends to become corrupted in implementation.

The further we stray from the foundations of 'New Thought' (for example), the more corruptions and 'toxins' stick to it, such as the emphasis on money and greed at someone else's expense.

Not many realize that 'New Thought' actually advocates a win-win socioeconomic model, along with tolerance, constructive cooperation and abolition of superstition and bigotry, all within a seemingly strong Hermetic framework. Later authors corrupted the teachings by making them less holistic and more specified towards material gain. These were NOT the original teachings.

One author who particularly caught my attention is Charles Haanel. Napoleoon Hill took a lot from him and put his own (less holistic) spin on the material.

Here is a section from one of Haanel's books that I hope will be found balanced and inspiring:


"22. There are but these two classes; all men will have to take their place on one side or the other;
they will have to go forward, or go back; there is no standing still in a world where all is motion; it is this attempt to
stand still that gives sanction and force to arbitrary and unequal codes of law.

23. That we are in a period of transition is evidenced by the unrest which is everywhere apparent. The complaint of
humanity is as a roll of heaven's artillery, commencing with low and threatening notes and increasing until the sound
is sent from cloud to cloud, and the lightning splits the air and earth.

24. The sentries who patrol the most advanced outposts of the Industrial, Political, and Religious world are calling
anxiously to each other. What of the night? The danger and insecurity of the position they occupy and attempt to
hold is becoming more apparent every hour. The dawn of a new era necessarily declares that the existing order of
things cannot much longer be.

25. The issue between the old regime and the new, the crux of the social problem, is entirely a question of
conviction in the minds of the people as to the nature of the Universe. When they realize that the transcendent force
of spirit or mind of the Cosmos is within each individual, it will be possible to frame laws that shall consider the
liberties and rights of the many instead of the privileges of the few.

26. As long as the people regard the Cosmic power as a power non-human and alien to humanity, so long will it be
comparatively easy for a supposed privileged class to rule by Divine right in spite of every protest of social
sentiment. The real interest of democracy is therefore to exalt, emancipate and recognize the divinity of the human
spirit. To recognize that all power is from within. That no human being has any more power than any other human
being, except such as may willingly be delegated to him. The old regime would have us believe that the law was
superior to the law-makers; herein is the gist of the social crime of every form of privilege and personal inequality,
the institutionalizing of the fatalistic doctrine of Divine election.

27. The Divine Mind is the Universal Mind; it makes no exceptions, it plays no favorites; it does not act through
sheer caprice or from anger, jealousy or wrath; neither can it be flattered, cajoled or moved by sympathy or petition
to supply man with some need which he thinks necessary for his happiness or even his existence. The Divine Mind
makes no exceptions to favor any individual; but when the individual understands and realizes his Unity with the
Universal principle he will appear to be favored because he will have found the source of all health, all wealth, and
all power.

28. [...] Realize that the Silence offers an ever-available and almost unlimited opportunity for awakening the highest
conception of Truth. Try to comprehend that Omnipotence itself is absolute silence, all else is change, activity,
limitation. Silent thought concentration is therefore the true method of reaching, awakening, and then expressing the
wonderful potential power of the world within."

Thoughts?

:)

III
12-31-2013, 06:01 PM
Hi Androgynus,

I think that while the "philosophy" appears reasonable, the memes latch to a meaning not intended by the writers themselves. As was mentioned, in person the "Objectivists" were like a bunch of true believers with a sense of "We have it nailed and all the rest of you poor suckers have it wrong." For some reason it appeals most to those who are out to exploit all the non-believers. I live amongst the Mormons. They have their claims to having the holy answers with "the only true church" and somehow that leads them astray.

If I had met any "Objectivists" that were not deprecatory and exploitive towards others I might think about it a bit longer. However, as the only one I met who didn't act that way dropped out after experiencing a group of them in person, I would be inclined to say it sounds good on paper but fails in application. Instead it has people maltreating the sick because they have redefined that as "lazy and worthless" with imaginary diseases and hence these despised people can be can be openly badly treated because they "deserve" it. They remind me a lot of our current crop of tea-baggers that throw temper tantrums like a 2 year old and can't be worked with in any reasonable way because they have "the only true way" so there is no reason they should have to compromise with inferior people.

When a philosophy consistently produces such corruptions it makes me look at what is wrong with the philosophy. There isn't anything there that leads to self-realization that I can see. I have never met any successful group health persons extolling or operating (that I can observe) on this philosophy. People in the health field need to have a lack of judgementalness and plenty of compassion. This philosophy doesn't appear to promote either. It appears to appeal to the anti-compassionate and very judgmental who use it to justify their attitudes.

Andro
12-31-2013, 06:26 PM
As was mentioned, in person the "Objectivists" were like a bunch of true believers with a sense of "We have it nailed and all the rest of you poor suckers have it wrong."

This is not about Objectivism (although it came up). I'm focusing on the 'New Thought' philosophy, which may have some tangents with Objectivism, but is most definitely a different cup of thought.

At its core (prior to corruption and over-specification towards financial gain), 'New Thought' is actually very different from Objectivism. Just to name an example, Objectivism dismisses ALL Spirituality as 'superstition' and is overwhelmingly materialistic-limited, while 'New Thought' states that 'Spirituality is Practical' and that 'The Spirit of a Thing is the Thing Itself'.

I'm just saying that we may be talking about different things. What I'm writing about and analyzing is original 'New Thought', NOT 'Objectivism'.

The differences are significant, and the two are not interchangeable. It is incorrect that 'New Thought' doesn't promote compassion. Quite the opposite.

'Objectivism', however, is exclusively self-oriented IMO. So, again, two different things with some possible similarities.

Myself, while somewhat entertained by objectivist concepts, am not really interested in it as a system.

'New Thought', on the other hand, I feel has quite a few useful bits that I can learn from and apply, especially since it is Spirit based and holistic/Hermetic at its foundations.

So, again: Not the same thing.

III
12-31-2013, 11:02 PM
Hi Androgynus,

True we may be talking about different branches of a philosophy of sorts. I have seen all sorts of intended as a philosophical statement writings corrupted by people's ego desires in the interpretation.



The Divine Mind is the Universal Mind; it makes no exceptions, it plays no favorites; it does not act through
sheer caprice or from anger, jealousy or wrath; neither can it be flattered, cajoled or moved by sympathy or petition
to supply man with some need which he thinks necessary for his happiness or even his existence. The Divine Mind
makes no exceptions to favor any individual; but when the individual understands and realizes his Unity with the
Universal principle he will appear to be favored because he will have found the source of all health, all wealth, and
all power.

Just this provides all the material needed for a twisted interpretation, "he will appear to be favored because he will have found the source of all health, all wealth, and all power." People seeking power and wealth will misunderstand and misapply and will be seeking to be or at least appear to be favored.

Everything that can be twisted to serve ego will be.

Andro
01-03-2014, 10:49 AM
Like it's already been mentioned, there is a 'Dark Side' with 'New Thought' type philosophies, and it should hardly come as a surprise.

For example, 'The Force' (in Star Wars) is Universal, and yet it has a Light Side and a Dark Side.
Everything in this world (almost) is subject to duality by default. True Balance is a rare commodity.

Napoleon Hill wrote a book called 'Outwitting The Devil', which was published many years after his death (and 70 years after it was written).

The official story, true or not, says that it was his wife who was worried that releasing this book would destroy his reputation/credibility/etc...

The book was eventually released, and it contains an actual 'interview' with the 'Devil' energy, which is personified in the book as an actual entity.

This 'interview' very cleverly reveals some of the methods and workings of the 'Dark Side'. It also underlines why this energy is needed/essential.

What's interesting is that many 'Poster Boys' Napoleon Hill used as examples for his 'New Thought'-based 'success' system, were actually equally using the 'Dark Side' aspects of this Universal Mind/Energy. He just never bothered to mention it directly... After all, he had books and seminars to sell :)

The PDF can be downloaded online, like HERE (http://ebookbrowsee.net/gdoc.php?id=461399330&url=cc6ee6795003ac1e57f5d5a60fe95f26) for example (I tested it).

Also, for anyone interested, here's a link to a torrent that will download you the PDF and the audiobook of 'Outwitting The Devil':

http://kickass.to/torrentwidget/31F0F4573A96B7182110762C3EAC837E78622A9C.png (http://kickass.to/napoleon-hill-outwitting-the-devil-the-secret-to-freedom-and-success-book-audio-t7390357.html)

Awani
01-05-2014, 01:40 AM
I googled some quotes to see if I would be interested in the book.


There are many parallels drawn to Thomas Edison and his success after hundreds of "failures", in that he will always be remembered because he "converted failure into a stepping stone to (eventual) achievement while others used it as an alibi for not producing results" (p. 105)

No comment.

I do think the Devil is working for God... in other words without the bad good can't be measured.

:cool:

Andro
01-13-2014, 12:09 PM
I do think the Devil is working for God... in other words without the bad good can't be measured.

The book's message is ultimately not very different from the above quote. One cannot exist without the other.

I think it's a great book. Again, I recommend the audiobook version as complementary, I can listen to it while commuting, etc...

Also, in this book, he really 'spills the beans' on organized religion, the 'educational' system, parental programming, sex, propaganda and much more...

Andro
01-13-2014, 12:20 PM
According to some 'New Thought' authors, 'Spiritus Mundi' (or 'Universal Spirit') is Mind when static (UN-stirred) and Thought when in motion. . . This does sound seemingly identical to what Theosophists describe it as.

Interestingly, some 'New Thought' Authors (including Wallace Wattles) strongly recommend to stay away from Theosophy and other such schools/movements.

I think there is a hidden (positive) agenda in this recommendation: To DE-mystify 'secret'/esoteric concepts and to present them to the general public (outside the 'Secret/Occult Societies' of the day) as sound scientific principles (which they actually are!), away from gradually withering mystical hierarchies, for those 'on the outside' who are ready to listen and apply. Some 'New Thought' Authors were actually 32 degree Masons (Haanel).

Andro
02-12-2014, 05:42 PM
I've already mentioned the work of Charles Haanel in the 'New Thought' context.

Still, this Author stands out as vastly deeper-reaching and more Hermetic-oriented than most other 'New Thought' Authors.

Besides 'The Master Key System', he wrote 4 more books (5 altogether), of which 'The Master Key System' is only the first in the series of five.

Every book is more advanced than its predecessors.

Here are PDF download links for all 5 books by Charles Haanel, in the order they were written in:

1. The Master Key System (http://www.lighthousecolorprint.com/master/Master_Key_System.pdf)

2. Mental Chemistry (http://ebooksgo.org/philosophy/MentalChemistry.pdf)

3. The New Psychology (http://onenesssynergy.com/my%20library/The_New_Psychology.pdf)

4. A Book About You (http://curezone.com/upload/Members/ChazTheMeatHe/Books/Survival/6_21_10/HollowEarth/Charles_F_Haanel_A_Book_About_You.pdf)

5. The Amazing Secrets Of The Yogi (http://audiospiritual.com/pdf/Charles%20F.%20Haanel/EN/Charles%20F.%20Haanel%20-%20The%20Amazing%20Secrets%20of%20the%20Yogi.pdf)

All the above links lead directly to the actual books, so you can preview before deciding whether to download or not.

I highly recommend these Works.

I don't know if it's true, but there were rumors that he might have been 'kicked out' from some secret society for revealing their secrets publicly in his books.

Enjoy!

Ghislain
12-11-2014, 09:06 AM
Another way of putting it is the fact that there's no magic pill, no empirical process, no recipe, no factory assembly line product that can get you there.

DS there is a recipe that the few follow and it gets them what they want. The ingredients are free, but as in the story of The Little Red Hen...

Plot summary:

In the tale, the little red hen finds a grain of wheat, and asks for help from the other farmyard animals to plant it, but none of them volunteer.
At each later stage (harvest, threshing, milling the wheat into flour, and baking the flour into bread), the hen again asks for help from the other animals, but again she gets no assistance.
Finally, the hen has completed her task, and asks who will help her eat the bread. This time, all the previous non-participants eagerly volunteer. She declines their help, stating that no one aided her in the preparation work. Thus, the hen eats it with her chicks leaving none for anyone else.
The moral of this story is that those who show no to contribution to a product do not deserve to enjoy the product: "if any would not work, neither should they eat."

Many won't even consider a different recipe from that which they are practicing/cooking/eating.

There are many authors who write about...

Positive Mental Attitude.

Napolian Hill, Og Mandino, Antony Robbins, Dale Carnegie...etc...etc...

"Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude".
Thomas Jefferson

"Like success, failure is many things to many people. With Positive Mental Attitude, failure is a learning experience, a rung on the ladder, a plateau at which to get your thoughts in order and prepare to try again".
W. Clement Stone

"The pool is terrible, but that doesn't have much to do with my record swims. That's all mental attitude".
Mark Spitz

"It's sort of a mental attitude about critical thinking and curiosity. It's about mindset of looking at the world in a playful and curious and creative way".
Adam Savage


I have read many PMA books and, if followed, they would work, but that is the crux, people read them, only a few put what they read into practice and the information is quickly forgotten ...why?


Because people get into their comfort zone, and we each have a different level where we reach it; once there nothing will make you move further...you need to be uncomfortable to move on, you need to want more, the majority are just like the dog in the story of The Dog and The Nail...


Two men were sitting together in one of the men’s shacks where a dog was lying on the bare floorboards in front of an open fire; the dog would periodically give a little yelp.

One guy says to the other, “why does he keep doing that”?

And the other guy replied, “Because he is lying on a nail”,

At which the first guy asks, “Then why doesn’t he move”?

And the second guy replies, “Because it doesn’t hurt enough yet”.


People get motivated when it hurts enough to do so.


You are what you eat!


"The brain is not nourished on beans and truffles but rather the food manages to reconstitute the molecules of the brain once it has been turned into homogeneous and assimilable substances, which potentially have the "same nature", as the molecules of the brain".
Antonio Gramsci

"Tell me what you eat and I will tell you what you are".
Anthelme Brillat-Savarin

"Man is what he eats".
Ludwig Andreas Feuerbach

"Ninety per cent of the diseases known to man are caused by cheap foodstuffs. You are what you eat".
Victor Lindlahr


Eating and intake are the same, who really knows what the perfect intake is?

It may be in a pill...who can really say?

There are some ascetics who claim they do not partake of any food or drink...


Another way of putting it is the fact that there's no magic pill, no empirical process, no recipe, no factory assembly line product that can get you there.

If you believe that then for you there probably isn't a recipe, but...

Perhaps there is!

It may be in a pill...again, who can really say?

Excercise

"True enjoyment comes from activity of the mind and exercise of the body; the two are ever united".
Wilhelm von Humboldt


"Leave all the afternoon for exercise and recreation, which are as necessary as reading. I will rather say more necessary because health is worth more than learning.
Thomas Jefferson


"The reason I exercise is for the quality of life I enjoy".
Kenneth H. Cooper

How many people follow a good exercise regime?


So the recipe is as follows...

1. Cup of positive mental attitude.
2. Couple of spoons of good nutrition.
3. Pinch of exercise.
4. Good dollop of desire.

Very tasty!

I am not saying there are not rich people who have eaten a different meal of greed and dishonesty, but there are many who are just achievers and anyone can be successful if they want to...anything else is just an excuse...

I should know, i wrote the book on excuses ;)

I believe, if that recipe is followed, this will take you to the top of the pyramid of "Maslow's Hierarchy of Human Needs" (http://www.consciousaging.com/Transpersonal%20Psychology/Conscious%20Aging%20-%20Maslow's%20Hierarchy%20of%20Needs.aspx)

Ghislain