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Phoenix
01-07-2009, 06:16 PM
This is a Phoenix-thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=7) from the old site (http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/forum.htm) created by theFool.

I gave a try on one recipie from the book "Art of Distillations" which describes how to make an oil of wine, and would like to share some results. So, the recipie is this:

"TO MAKE AN OIL OF WINE
Take weak spirit of wine and distill it in a vessel of a long neck. Then pour on this spirit again upon the phlegm, and distill it again. Do this several times and you shall see the oil of the wine swim on the phlegm, which phlegm you must separate from the oil by a tunnel. If this oil be afterward circulated for a month, it will thereby become most odoriferous, and of a singular virtue, and good being both very cordial and balsamical."

http://i77.servimg.com/u/f77/13/27/64/97/wine10.jpg

I started with the weak spirit of wine (~45% alcohol distilled from wine) and cohobated it with the help of a small pump. The wine spirit started to change color from transparent to milky and after many hours, an iridescent film appeared on surface. Separation of this oil was unsuccessful probably because of its small volume.
Maybe it is some kind of ethyl-ether thing forming from wine or an ingredient contained only in wine. When I try the same operation on artificial alcohol I should know.
But I would like to ask if anyone has messed with this thing. What do you believe this oil is? Some other recipies say to circulate the wine or to separate the oil by distillation. I hope that in this oil is the "life force" of the wine and I am planning to check for the existence of m-state matter if I could isolate enough of it.

When I try the same operation on artificial alcohol I should know.
I would also like to see the results from an absolute alcohol run (dried everclear). I suppose it could be some type of ethyl ether forming, or maybe it's an ester. Does it smell? When acetic acid and ethanol are digested together they produce a supposedly semi-sweet smelling oil, and this is probably related to ester formation [ethyl acetate] (it's also likely the same oil mentioned as the end result of this process). Acetic acid is the oxidation product of ethanol. Some acetic acid is always present in wine (depending on many factors, and some wine contains more than others), and likewise SOME ethyl acetate is always found in wine. This would also take place in repeated distillations.

The acidity of the wine will also change in accordance to the amount of acetic acid contained. Can you measure the pH of the phlegm and distillation product for us? We'll try to confirm this!

EDIT: Also wanted to touch bases on the evolutionary changes taking place. The evolutionary product of ethanol is acetic acid (it's not a degradation, but a philosophical graduation). The chemical marriage of ethanol and acetic acid produces a child. This child is not like either of its parents, and its essence is also exalted (at least more so than ethanol and acetic acid).

It's a good solvent too.
Well this was a double post, but I wanted to add something else.

The combination of a vegetable/mineral acid and an alcohol will always yield something interesting. This combination can be accomplished a variety of ways: by heating gently in a closed container (digestion), by repeated distillation, and by circulation (digestion+distillation). Circulation is very interesting, because it combines both of these principles. Circulation is more like our modern refluxing system (reflux column attached to a flask).

I think distillation is the quickest, but also the most crude. Digestion is a good way to accomplish this, but the process is slow in some instances, and we must be weary of the vapors produced so as to not exceed the pressure rating of the flask. Circulation is the best way to accomplish the marriage of two substances, and also to bring about the latent evolutionary changes within matter.

It should be noted that we may need some type of catalyst to start/carry the reaction along in some instances. Regarding catalysts: I've heard good things about gold nanoparticles.

The evolutionary product of ethanol is acetic acid (it's not a degradation, but a philosophical graduation). The chemical marriage of ethanol and acetic acid produces a child. This child is not like either of its parents, and its essence is also exalted (at least more so than ethanol and acetic acid).
I really like the way you interpret the whole process. I wonder sometimes if we could prove somehow that this product is really exalted and different from store bought ethyl acetate. Or to put it more general, what makes a substance (e.g. salt) philosophical ("alive") and how to distinguish from a "dead" one?

Can you measure the pH of the phlegm and distillation product for us?
Back to the experiment, I measured today the ph (by means of a ph-paper) of the liquid in the flask (phlegm + distillation product mixed) and found it at ~ 4.0ph. Pretty interesting, the theory of acetic acid formation seems to gain ground. However, mention that the measurement took place after one month has passed from the date the experiment was performed. The flask was kept at room temp.

Does it smell?
The smell of the liquid in the flask, had definatelly a sweet overtone which wasn't there before, but the sweet smell didn't cover fully the smell of the distilled wine.

I would also like to see the results from an absolute alcohol run (dried everclear)
I run this experiment by mixing 10ml of 95% alcohol with 10ml of deionised water in order to get close to the consistency of the wine distillate. The ph of this mixture is ~ 6.0ph. Then I started the repeated distillations by the help of the small electric pump. After some time, the liquid started to change color from transparent to white. The iridescent oil was not observed, (probably due to the small volume?). The ph of the end product, was ~ 6.0ph. Hmm, the results are baffling.

I really like the way you interpret the whole process. I wonder sometimes if we could prove somehow that this product is really exalted and different from store bought ethyl acetate. Or to put it more general, what makes a substance (e.g. salt) philosophical ("alive") and how to distinguish from a "dead" one?
This is a question I've often asked myself. I cannot actually determine if, how, or why a certain substance is "alive" as compared to "dead." I normally name these in accordance to the substance and whether or not it comes from a natural, i.e. a philosophical, source. Sometimes our philosophical substances are often a conglomeration of various chemicals/isomers/etc, and It's not actually meant to be a single pure substance. I think this may contribute to the degree of philosophical graduation of a substance.

However, this is not always the case. Sometimes it relates to the actual life force, or astral energy, bound within a substance. I'm sure you're aware of this notion though. I cannot actually measure this life force yet, and thus it still remains one of those unknown unknowns. More than likely, it means a number of different things, and we have to determine the true meaning through context interpretation.

I know I didn't really answer your question, but hopefully I've provided some food for thought.


Back to the experiment, I measured today the ph (by means of a ph-paper) of the liquid in the flask (phlegm + distillation product mixed) and found it at ~ 4.0ph. Pretty interesting, the theory of acetic acid formation seems to gain ground. However, mention that the measurement took place after one month has passed from the date the experiment was performed. The flask was kept at room temp.
That's a pretty good confirmation right there. Do you happen to know the pH of the wine you used? The pH should continue to drop as you leave it out to age and oxidize. Basically, the wine will turn sour and create what's called "vinegar wine." Christ was given this vinegar (metaphorical interpretation needed) to drink while on the cross. I think the product of acetic acid and ethanol is very important in alchemy.


The smell of the liquid in the flask, had definatelly a sweet overtone which wasn't there before, but the sweet smell didn't cover fully the smell of the distilled wine.
This sounds like another confirmation, but I'll be conservative and mention that it would be much better to compare this with a larger amount of the ester in question (ethyl acetate).


I run this experiment by mixing 10ml of 95% alcohol with 10ml of deionised water in order to get close to the consistency of the wine distillate. The ph of this mixture is ~ 6.0ph. Then I started the repeated distillations by the help of the small electric pump. After some time, the liquid started to change color from transparent to white. The iridescent oil was not observed, (probably due to the small volume?). The ph of the end product, was ~ 6.0ph. Hmm, the results are baffling.
Ah, good experiment. If you repeat this experiment with some acetic acid added to the reactants then you should begin to notice the oil formation. This may form as an iridescent oil, but I'm not sure. If you continue this then it will definitely start to smell interesting.

Do you happen to know the pH of the wine you used?
I measured the ph of the wine distillate with which I begun the experiment and found it at 4.0, the same as the ph of the end product.

The pH should continue to drop as you leave it out to age and oxidize.
I think this is true for the wine which has low alcohol content. When alcohol is in high concentration, the oxidation doesn't occur.
I still am not sure if this acidity measured in the wine distillate is explained by means of acetic acid. There could be other acidic substances naturally occuring in wine. The definite answer to this would be to run the experiment you propose:

If you repeat this experiment with some acetic acid added to the reactants then you should begin to notice the oil formation
I should calculate the amount of distilled vinegar to be mixed with the 20ml of 50% alcohol in order to get ph 4.0.

If you continue this then it will definitely start to smell interesting.
But I don't feel like running the experiment soon, because the acetic acid vapors are corrosive and my distillation system is leaking. Probably then my nose will be unable to smell anything! (joking here). Oh, why I didn't go to study chemical engineering back then? hehe.

Below, I post two photos of the end product. The first is the one which derived from wine distillate (ph 4.0), the second (more transparent color), came from the 50% ethanol (ph 6.0), as described in previous post.
http://i77.servimg.com/u/f77/13/27/64/97/alcs10.jpg

The difference is more than obvious. The 50% ethanol failed to produce the same results. So the wine distillate contains sth more which makes it acidic also. Another question could be: what makes the end product from transparent to white? I still have doubts that ethyl acetate explains all. There is sth more in the wine distillate compared to 50% ethanol and it is not vinegar. All the times I have thrown some K2CO3 solution in the wine distillate, I never saw a bubble rise. On the contrary, even a single drop of distilled vinegar in 20ml of 50% ethanol, is detected by the bubbles it gives when reacting with K2CO3.

I left for the end the most difficult:

Sometimes our philosophical substances are often a conglomeration of various chemicals/isomers/etc, and It's not actually meant to be a single pure substance. I think this may contribute to the degree of philosophical graduation of a substance.

However, this is not always the case. Sometimes it relates to the actual life force, or astral energy, bound within a substance. I'm sure you're aware of this notion though. I cannot actually measure this life force yet, and thus it still remains one of those unknown unknowns.
I know the answer is not to be found soon, but I like to speculate on this. I think it has sth to do with the m-state elements. You probably know that one way to "revivify" a "dead" salt is by deliquescense. Then, by checking for the presence of m-state matter, you can distinguish between the dead and the revivified salt. The whole issue requires its own thread with the accompanying experiments, but I just mention it here for imagination triggering purposes.

Regarding catalysts: I've heard good things about gold nanoparticles.
This gave me an idea to mix some m-state matter into the 50% ethanol and start the distillations again. I post it here in order not to forget to do it because it seems to be a nice, interesting experiment.

I think this is true for the wine which has low alcohol content. When alcohol is in high concentration, the oxidation doesn't occur.
I still am not sure if this acidity measured in the wine distillate is explained by means of acetic acid. There could be other acidic substances naturally occuring in wine. The definite answer to this would be to run the experiment you propose:
Wine does have a relatively low alcohol content though. It ranges from 5%-20% and cannot go any higher unless it's fortified with more alcohol. This is because the yeast that produces the alcohol is also killed off by said alcohol at higher concentrations. I suppose there might be other acidic substances naturally occurring in wine, and these might also initiate ester formations on their own (carboxylic acid + ethanol -> ester). I think the experiment I mentioned is a good way to test this hypothesis.


I should calculate the amount of distilled vinegar to be mixed with the 20ml of 50% alcohol in order to get ph 4.0.
I didn't mention this earlier, but I think 15% alcohol would be more realistic in comparison to the actual alcohol concentration in wine. Then just calculate the amount of acetic acid needed to bring the pH down to 4. It shouldn't be too much.


The difference is more than obvious. The 50% ethanol failed to produce the same results. So the wine distillate contains sth more which makes it acidic also. Another question could be: what makes the end product from transparent to white? I still have doubts that ethyl acetate explains all. There is sth more in the wine distillate compared to 50% ethanol and it is not vinegar. All the times I have thrown some K2CO3 solution in the wine distillate, I never saw a bubble rise. On the contrary, even a single drop of distilled vinegar in 20ml of 50% ethanol, is detected by the bubbles it gives when reacting with K2CO3.
Wait, I think I'm confused. Let me get this straight. The white milky liquid is from the wine distillate, right? The clear is from 50% ethanol, right? I think you I might've misunderstood you somewhere.

Back to the topic at hand though. I honestly have no clue why the wine distillate is white. Does the solution look like suspended particles? Can you filter it with a really fine filter paper? Can you try to add a single drop of vinegar to some wine, and then toss an alkali in it? Something else might be happening to the alkali, and it's not able to react with the acid. If it does bubble, then we can safely assume the wine you're using does not contain any appreciable amount of acetic acid.

I think you should try to experiment with this some more. We can try three different variations of this.

1st: Take a small amount of wine, and then digest for a few weeks at 120F.
2nd: Take a small amount of wine, and add a few ml of acetic acid to the mix. Then digest at the same temp as the other.
3rd: Obtain a mixture of 15-20% ethanol, and add a few ml of acetic acid (maybe the same amount as the previous test). Digest at the same temp.


I know the answer is not to be found soon, but I like to speculate on this. I think it has sth to do with the m-state elements. You probably know that one way to "revivify" a "dead" salt is by deliquescense. Then, by checking for the presence of m-state matter, you can distinguish between the dead and the revivified salt. The whole issue requires its own thread with the accompanying experiments, but I just mention it here for imagination triggering purposes.
Yeah, deliquescence is a good way to revivify a dead salt. The salt become more philosophical with each deliquescence/calcination. The deliquescence actually brings about a chemical change in the salt. I've heard that these salts also draw m-state matter from the surrounding atmosphere/area, but I've not been able to confirm this. However, I DO know that deliquescence actually causes a chemical change to take place (small amounts, increasing with each repetition). I'd like to do a chemical analysis on a salt that's been brought through the deliquescence at least seven times. I think we'll find some interesting results!

Wine does have a relatively low alcohol content though. It ranges from 5%-20% and cannot go any higher unless it's fortified with more alcohol.
I agree with that. However, in my experiment, I used wine distillate, which is wine distilled once. I kept the distillate and threw the phlegh. I suppose that this wine distillate contains about 50% alcohol (it can catch fire). That is why in the second experiment (where I use store bought alcohol) I make a mixture of 50:50 with water in order to come close to the mixture of the first experiment.


Wait, I think I'm confused. Let me get this straight. The white milky liquid is from the wine distillate, right? The clear is from 50% ethanol, right?
Ok, I 'll try to disentangle this.
Experiment one:
Wine distillate is put in the distillation apparatus and left to "circulate". I think this operation comes closely to the meaning of cohobation. After hours, the color of the whole liquid, has changed from transparent to white. You can see a pic of this at the previous post. It is the first test tube, the whiter. Also, an iridescent oil swims at the top, but it is so little that I cannot seperate it.
Experiment two:
Store bought alcohol (95% alcohol) is mixed with water at the rate of 50:50 volume. This is what I call 50% ethanol (ok, its not 50% but comes close). Then it is put into the distillation aparratus to cohobate. After hours, its color is not tranparent, but you cannot say that it is white also. You can see it (and compare with the color of the first experiment) at the second picture of test tube. No oil on top observed.

Can you try to add a single drop of vinegar to some wine, and then toss an alkali in it?
I tried today a series of experiments tossing K2CO3 powder in test tubes with wine distillate, wine distillate + vinegar, store bought alcohol + water +vinegar. All of them produced bubbles. Even the wine distillate alone, produces bubbles at a verry slow rate for long time after the K2CO3 is tossed in. I have never noticed this before because it is not so obvious, you must search for bubbles. Usually, the other mixtures with the vinegar, react more vigorously. So, this means that there is acid in the wine distillate, but in low concentration.

From the ph value (which is 4.0), we have that the molality of the acid is 10^(-4) (I suppose strong acid, which is a very rough approximation).
So, at 10ml of wine distillate, there are at least 10^(-6) moles of acid. If they react fully, they give ~22 microliters of gas. Ok, this is a very small volume, consistent with my observations.

Does the solution look like suspended particles? Can you filter it with a really fine filter paper?
It seems to be homogenous, but no, I haven't tried filtering. Maybe a scattering or not of a light beam can help to this question. I 'll post on this when I try it.

I think you should try to experiment with this some more.
A lot of experiments on this issue are running right now. I 'll keep you updated if sth interesting happens.

The main reason for which I 'm after this oil, is because I have found magnetic m-state matter in grape juice in some previous experiments. So, I suppose that this oil (which is stated to be the "spirit" of wine in the alchemical texts) is highly valued and contains the m-state of wine highly concentrated.
Hi, could you please tell some details about that magnetic m-state matter in grape experiment? I tried a similar one according to ***, but did not get anything magnetic, so I am stuck here.

Hi, could you please tell some details about that magnetic m-state matter in grape experiment? I tried a similar one according to ***, but did not get anything magnetic, so I am stuck here.
The possible mistake is that you didn't raise the fire at the final product enough, check also my post here:
I detect the presence of the m-state element by running a magnet under it. Usually the m-state dust attracts to it. And, of course this is not any proof that the m-state theory is correct but it is definately strange to find magnetic elements in great concentrations in places where they shouldn't be (like grape juice and sea salt). If you gonna try it, be sure that the m-state is well dried (raise fire above 100 C) and that it is purified from other impurities (like MgOH). I think this link (www.rexresearch.com/ormes/ormeprep.htm) explains a lot if someone is interested. (look at Method 4)
1st: Take a small amount of wine, and then digest for a few weeks at 120F.

BE, where did you get this figure from?
I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean. If you're referring to "a few weeks at 120F" then I have to admit I pulled it out of nowhere. It's a common digestion temperature (along with 98F).
I think digesting the wine first will turn it to vinegar.
Don't forget sulfites in wine, digesting it with sulfites into it, will do nothing. It won't wake up the process of fermentation.

Salazius
BE,

common digestion temperature according to whom?
The whole alchemy community? What are you trying to imply here?

If you're trying to imply what I think you're trying to imply, then you can take it else where. I'm tired of it, and if this is the case then you can consider this a second warning.
The whole alchemy community huh? Please site a reference. Otherwise we know where you got your information in which case you refuse to appreciate, acknowledge, or give credit for it. So site a reference or just be somebody who copies other peoples work without saying it.
Perhaps B.E. remembers it from Bacstrom: Rosicrucian Aphorisms and Process "...so as to show a degree of heat from 120 to 140 or 150 degrees by Fahrenheit's thermometer. The greatest heat is in the middle, where it is generally from 140 to 150 degrees: less heat is round the staves where it varies from 90 to 100 and from that to 120 degrees."

...or from Tripied : du Vitriol Philosophique 1898:
...Distillons ce sel après l'avoir toutefois évaporé à siccité et transformé en une masse lamellaire (terre foliée de tartre des anciens), chauffons jusqu'au rouge sombre, nous obtenons un liquide rouge noirâtre qui, rectifié pour le séparer des produits impurs et empyreumatiques, nous donne l'acétone ou l'esprit du corps et l'huile ou âme dont les portions les plus légères passant entre 120° et 150°, ont déjà occupé les chimistes sous le nom de dumasine; esprit et huile qu'on aura parfaitement purs en les combinant avec les bi-sulfites alcalins.

...or from Dr.Christian August Becker 1867:
Das ganze Destillat wurde mehre Wochen in der Wärme des Pferdemists (30°) in Digestion gehalten, wobei sich nachgerade das Oel, die Quintessenz, auf der Oberfläche absetzte und den grössten Wohlgeruch verbreitete. Dies Oel ist ein doppeltes, das eine destillat nach Fittig bei 90°, das Andre, das Dumasin bei 120°. Diese beiden Oele bilden den Kern des Heilmittels, das Präparat ist also ein Acetonium oleosum, und muss sprach richtig

Aleilius
01-07-2009, 06:18 PM
Field, I do not need to post a reference for such a thing. It's well known by alchemists that 120F is one of the digestion temperatures. I'm surprised you asked such a thing. I assume you know it, but you're wanting to give me a hard time. I believe you're implying that I "stole" this from ***. Of course, this notion is pure nonsense.

I'd appreciate it if you stop this pointless battle. I will win in the end, and you can be damn sure. I wield the lovely ban hammer.

----

Perhaps B.E. remembers it from Bacstrom: Rosicrucian Aphorisms and Process "...so as to show a degree of heat from 120 to 140 or 150 degrees by Fahrenheit's thermometer. The greatest heat is in the middle, where it is generally from 140 to 150 degrees: less heat is round the staves where it varies from 90 to 100 and from that to 120 degrees."

Thank you for the reference phliosehea, but you didn't have to do such a thing. Field knows this, but he just wanted to give me a hard time.
Some updates:

I finally managed to isolate sth that has interesting properties. I put wine alcohol (almost 95% pure, rectified) in the digestor for at least a month (I forgot it there). I took a portion of it and put it on fire. An oily substance was left behind. It didn't burn. I thought it was water and had a great viscosity because of sth dissolved in it. Then, I tried to distill it by strong fire. Suddenly, all of it converted to a white fog which wasn't easy to condense. In fact, I lost it all in the air, it passed through the distillation arm without condensing!
Hmm, guys, what could this be? We have said at previous posts that ethyl acetate is expected to be produced by those methods. How can I check for its existence in my alcohol? Any test ideas? I have some of this alcohol left and want to use it wisely...

Cornicopia
02-07-2009, 05:32 PM
I was hoping that I could get a little more help with the oil of wine. I have tried this experiment before using Everclear and it didn't work for my either. At one point, I was able to extract a golden oil but when I left it to ciruclate, I never got the "Peacock's Tail" as in the picture above.

I was hoping that Phoenix could share what kind of wine was used, bought or made. If bought, what was the brand? Did you leave it in Balneo Mary for 40 days before you got the wine distallate? Could you elaborate on the equipment you used to cohabitate? And the setup? Any extra information would be very helpful. I would also be happy to share my results, post pics, etc. :) Thanks!

Dizardos
02-07-2009, 07:44 PM
I was hoping that I could get a little more help with the oil of wine. I have tried this experiment before using Everclear and it didn't work for my either. At one point, I was able to extract a golden oil but when I left it to ciruclate, I never got the "Peacock's Tail" as in the picture above.

I was hoping that Phoenix could share what kind of wine was used, bought or made. If bought, what was the brand? Did you leave it in Balneo Mary for 40 days before you got the wine distallate? Could you elaborate on the equipment you used to cohabitate? And the setup? Any extra information would be very helpful. I would also be happy to share my results, post pics, etc. :) Thanks!

To create such an oil natural wine (without sulfides) would work better, but even the cheapest red wine in the grocery store will work. The key is that you digest it in a flask or bottle with two thirds of your vessel (or a bit more) filled with air and make sure that no fresh air is able to enter your vessel. Furthermore a high temperature speeds up the reaction, but no artificial heating is necessary for the oil to form. Keep it in a black garbage bag ( to generate extra heat) in front of the window inside the house so that the sun can shine on it during the summer or in the trunk of your car or in close vicinity of the boiler in your house. All of it should work and an oil will form on the surface of the wine. If you digest it for a much longer period (half a year or longer), many red and brown particles will form in your wine and the oil will not be visible anymore. I can tell you that the end result will likely fall short in relation to your expectations.

theFool
02-07-2009, 08:57 PM
I was hoping that Phoenix could share what kind of wine was used, bought or made. If bought, what was the brand? Did you leave it in Balneo Mary for 40 days before you got the wine distallate? Could you elaborate on the equipment you used to cohabitate? And the setup? Any extra information would be very helpful. I would also be happy to share my results, post pics, etc. Thanks!

The wine used was home-made, no ads or whatever. I distilled it once and circulated the distillate. No digestion previous to that. When I tried once to digest it, it just turned to vinegar. I think that what Dizzardos mentions in his last post, is the making of an ethyl acetate vegetable menstruum. If you are after this, read Alan Bartlet's book "Real Alchemy"; he describes a more efficient way to make it.

About the equipment: A typical distillation train, hotplate and sand for heating the flask. The trick was that I used an electric pump to take the distillate and return it into the flask (through a small, airtight hole) automatically. The pump was turned on every 15 minutes (using a mechanical timer) but I think leaving it on continuous operation will not cause problem. If one could return the distillate into the flask by means of gravity only, this would be better.

This iridescence I observed, didn't form when circulating clear, store bought ethanol. But I will tell you a trick I have seen and tried myself. You can extract the "spirit" of any wine by leaving a layer of 95% ethanol to float on top of it for 48 hours. (They don't mix if you drop it carefully). Then separeate the 95% ethanol, add some water and circulate this. The iridescence will form then. I 've tried it myself using the cheapest wine (containing sulfides) as a starting material and it worked.
The credits go to John French and his wonderful book "Art of Distillation".

Right now I don't work on this project (mainly because I don't have the means to analyse the substances I produced and because I didn't know what I was looking for!). I would be glad to see sb trying it, maybe I wake up again ... :)

Cornicopia
02-07-2009, 10:01 PM
Thanks so much for your help!
Both of you!

I will keep you updated on my progress!:D

Ghislain
11-26-2013, 09:27 AM
Interesting thread TF. Did you ever manage to separate the oil?

When I did a distillation of wine someone here told me the first 3% that comes off
is acetone...is that correct?

Could this be what appears to float as an oil?

Ghislain

theFool
11-26-2013, 12:08 PM
When I did a distillation of wine someone here told me the first 3% that comes off
is acetone...is that correct?
Maybe it is ketones, in general, not acetone solely. I'm not sure though.


Could this be what appears to float as an oil?

Ghislain I think acetone is soluble in ethanol. However, there is the possibility that the ketones in wine polymerize and form an insoluble oil.

I haven't continued the experiment to the point I could separate the oil.

Kiorionis
12-17-2013, 06:30 PM
Here is the oil of wine I was able to extract with the above-mentioned processs by John French:

http://imageshack.us/a/img42/7905/arsk.jpg

The image is from beneath the surface of the phlegm. I started with two gallons of Carlos Rossi Burgundy wine and I bet I end up with roughly 10-15 ml of oil.
I used a water bath at it's lowest setting to vapour away the spirit, cohobated as necessary, then set in a lower temp alembic setup for the final separation (the fifth cohobation). With my work schedule it took me about a month. If I could have worked straight through I bet I could have done it in a week.

theFool
12-18-2013, 03:15 PM
I started with two gallons of Carlos Rossi Burgundy wine and I bet I end up with roughly 10-15 ml of oil.
I used a water bath at it's lowest setting to vapour away the spirit, cohobated as necessary, then set in a lower temp alembic setup for the final separation (the fifth cohobation). With my work schedule it took me about a month. If I could have worked straight through I bet I could have done it in a week. Thanks for sharing Kiorionis. What is the smell of this oil, is it sweet? You could also check its flamability. The most possible explanation from a chemical viewpoint is that this oil is ethyl acetate, however, it may carry within it a "mercury" from the wine.

Kiorionis
12-18-2013, 11:05 PM
I can't tell you about the smell, I've had some sinus congestion the last few days.. But it tastes very sweet :)

The problem I'm experiencing now is that the oil seems to want to act like a salt rather than a liquid oil, and it just sticks to the side of my pipette.. Very annoying. Most likely because the phlegm contains all the volatile wine salts plus water and maybe a bit of mercury. I'm sure they're all starting to join back together as I distill off the phlegm. After collecting enough volatiles I think it might be easiest to extract the oil with a dry distillation or by boiling it in water.

Also, I think I wasted a lot of oil when I calcined my body. I've read that another way to extract the oil is by dry distilling the moisture out of the wine feces.

Dr.Zoidberg
12-19-2013, 02:09 AM
When I did a distillation of wine someone here told me the first 3% that comes off
is acetone...is that correct?
Ghislain

A local shared that you are supposed to throw away the first bit of moonshine that comes over as it contains methanol. You can test the distillate by setting it on fire. Any yellow indicates methanol; you want a nice blue flame. The excerpt and link below offer some information.

"Methanol is found naturally in certain fruits and vegetables. It may also be produced as an unintended byproduct during the fermentation process. Spirits distilled from fruits, such as apples, oranges, and grapes, are more likely to contain methanol. Both beer and wine generally contain methanol. Studies have determined that wine can contain as much as 329 mg/L and beer may contain somewhere on the order of 16 mg/L. This makes distilled wine (grappa, brandy, etc.) potentially more dangerous than all grain shine - such as corn whiskey.

Why is Methanol A Concern for Moonshiners?
If wine contains methanol but doesn't pose a risk of methanol poisoning then why is it potentially dangerous to drink once distilled? The difference is that the methanol concentration in, say, 5 gallons of wine, is evenly distributed among the 5 gallons. For someone to ingest a potentially dangerous amount they would need to ingest more than 5 gallons....or 28 bottles!

During the distillation process methanol is concentrated at the start of the run because it has a lower boiling point than ethanol and water. The boiling point of methanol is approximately 148 degrees farenheit, which is quite a bit lower than ethanol (the good stuff). This means that methanol (148F boiling temp) will start to boil before the ethanol (174F boiling temp). This is why moonshiners always throw out the first bit of shine they produce from each run (more on this below)."

http://www.clawhammersupply.com/blogs/moonshine-still-blog/7207958-methanol-will-moonshine-make-you-blind

theFool
12-19-2013, 09:03 AM
I can't tell you about the smell, I've had some sinus congestion the last few days.. But it tastes very sweet :) So, probably, it is not ethyl acetate solely, it should smell like nail polish remover (you would smell that even with congestion!).



The problem I'm experiencing now is that the oil seems to want to act like a salt rather than a liquid oil, and it just sticks to the side of my pipette.. Very annoying. Most likely because the phlegm contains all the volatile wine salts plus water and maybe a bit of mercury. I'm sure they're all starting to join back together as I distill off the phlegm. After collecting enough volatiles I think it might be easiest to extract the oil with a dry distillation or by boiling it in water. Maybe an idea from "the book of Quintessence" (http://www.stavacademy.co.uk/mimir/quintessence.htm) could help:

The trick of separating one from the other is this: Take a sharp
pointer or iron pick and pierce the wax that hangs in the mouth of the
amphora, against the earth. When you have pierced to the bottom of the
water, take out the pointer or pick. The earthly water that is in the neck
will first come out until it reaches the interface between the water and
the quintessence, that is, mortal heaven sublimed. When you see that the
quintessence would run out after the earthly water was poured off, quickly
put your finger over the hole and turn the amphora right side up. You then
have our quintessence and the earthly water has been removed. This is an
extremely important secret.



Also, I think I wasted a lot of oil when I calcined my body. I've read that another way to extract the oil is by dry distilling the moisture out of the wine feces.
Didn't you distil the alcohol out of the wine first? How comes you got wine feces. As I understand the recipe of John French, you first distill alcohol from the wine (once), so the feces and some phlegm are thrown away. He writes: "Take weak spirit of wine ..."

Kiorionis
12-19-2013, 03:13 PM
Thanks for the link and ideas :)



Didn't you distil the alcohol out of the wine first? How comes you got wine feces. As I understand the recipe of John French, you first distill alcohol from the wine (once), so the feces and some phlegm are thrown away. He writes: "Take weak spirit of wine ..."

Yes i did this exactly like John French's process, but I was referring to a separate process for what is left over (instead of throwing it away).
The process is from Manfred Junius' "Spagyrics":


Now let us see further and separate the Fire and Earth. First, remove all the Fire together with the Earth from the jar, and put it all into a big earthenware jar well luted -- everything together, so that nothing will stay behind. After this, take some roof tiles. Burn those in a strong fire for an hour or two, then let them cool. Pulverize them, sift them through a small sieve, mix this powder, the Fire and also the Earth in the cupel, enough to dry them to powder […] set the barrel on a furnace, with a cupel filled with ashes, put a receptacle in front, lute the Earth well, because the Fire is a subtle spirit. Then light a fire in the furnace , very gently for the first four hours, the next four somewhat stronger, the third four hours still stronger, while during the last four the cupel with the matter must be red-hot. Keep it this way until nothing will distill over anymore […]. you will find in the bottom a black substance like coal, which is a precious Stone, and it is the blood of the Earth. Take it out and preserve it well until you need it. In the receptacle, however, there is a thick black substance, vel terra. In it there is the Fire, but it is impure and still is with it some of the Element Earth.

This leads me to think that the spirit can't take over all of the oil in the first distillation, because it's saturated with water and whatever else is dissolved in the alcohol. In my first go-around, I took what was left over (the watery phlegm and feces/salts) and calcined in in an open vessel so I could extract the white salts from the black. Next time I'm going to attempt this process :)

Edit. I forgot to add, the way he suggests to rectify and purify the Fire is to take three times the quantity of water, and the Fire and Earth, and boil them all together. This is supposed to separate and purify the Fire. I'm going to try this on the stuff I extracted, I'll post a picture as soon as I get to my computer, but it looks like a red-black salt.