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theFool
12-19-2013, 01:54 PM
I was looking lately to a list of alchemists, found on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alchemists
Many of them have died too soon compared to the modern life expectancy values. For example Paracelsus, the father of western alchemy lived only 47 years. Glauber died at 66. Some of them were lucky enough to live more than 80 years. Albertus magnus died at 87, Isaac Newton at 85. The record seems to be kept by the arabian Jabir, who lived up to 94 years. A great achievement for his time but not so impressive today.

Also, when looking at the causes of death, we can find that common ailments have plagued alchemists too.
So the question naturally arises, can the philosopher's stone prolong life, can it protect from disease?
My current understanding is that it can keep someone healthy until old age and death come upon him naturally. It can alleviate health problems caused by minor disturbances but probably it has limited action against serious diseases that are caused by storng infectious agents.
Reading a recent entry from Salazius' blog (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/entry.php?7-An-important-distinction) the answer may be that there are diferrent kinds of "philosopher's stones", some stronger than others. But if Paracelsus himself was unable to find the true philosopher's stone I wonder if it possible to be made.
Another interesting research could be to check which of those alchemists has left a body behind, after death. A real alchemist who would probably have reached to the true stone, would be able to take his body with him, like various prophets and saints is rumoured to have done.

Krisztian
12-19-2013, 03:03 PM
One of the key elements in this line of questioning may be that many of these alchemists, perhaps, didn't want to live into the 100s. They came here, did what was assigned and when accomplished their tasks and goals and journey, they simply put down their body and left. Disease, and death, can be a servant too.

Yes, there are varying degrees of strength to the Lapis, but for me, the answer holds true to be behind the motivation and mindset of the [spiritual] alchemist.

Luxus
05-19-2017, 02:15 PM
When we read the works of Alchemists claiming how the stone prolongs human life and then search for the lifespan of the Alchemist making the claim we are met with disappointment in every case. The weight of the evidence is that Alchemists lived no longer then others.

Alain de Lille (Born from 1115 to 1128 – died in 1202(1203?))
Albertus Magnus (1193–1280)
Roger Bacon (1214–1294)
Pseudo-Geber (Spain, 13th century)
Ramon Llull (Raymond Lulli) (1235–1315)
Pope John XXII (1249–1334)
John Dastin (early 14th)
Arnold of Villanova (1245 – ?(before 1311))
Jean de Meung (c.1250 – c.1305)
Petrus Bonus (Early 14th century)
Ortolanus or Hortulanus (fl. 1358)
Jean de Roquetaillade (Johannes de Rupescissa ) (d. 1336)
Gilles de Rais (1401–1440)
Bernard Trevisan (Bernard of Treves) (1406–1490)
Johann of Laz (15th century)
George Ripley (England, 15th century)
Thomas Norton (c. 1433-c. 1513)
Johannes Trithemius (1462–1516)
Johann Georg Faust (ca. 1480–1540)
Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa (1486–1535)
Paracelsus (1493–1541)
Thomas Charnock (1516/1524/1526–1581)
François Hotman (1524–1590)
John Dee (1527–1609)
Gerhard Dorn (c. 1530–1584)
Martin Ruland the Elder (1532-1602)
Richard Stanihurst (1547–1618)
Tycho Brahe (1546–1601)
Samuel Norton (1548–1621)
Edward Kelley (1555–1597)
Basilius Valentinus (Basil Valentine) (16/17th century)
Andreas Libavius (1555–1616)
François Béroalde de Verville (1556–1626)
Heinrich Khunrath (circa 1560–1605)
Oswald Croll (circa 1563-1609)
Melchior Cibinensis (16th century)
Jean D'Espagnet (1564 – c. 1637)
Michał Sędziwój (1566–1636)
Benedictus Figulus (born 1567)
Michael Maier (1568–1622)
Martin Ruland the Younger (1569 – 1611)
Jacob Boehme (1575–1624)
Jan Baptist van Helmont (1577–1644)
Arthur Dee (1579–1651)
Johann Daniel Mylius (c. 1583-1642)
Johann Moriaen (1591-1668)
William Backhouse (1593 – 1662)
Baro Urbigerus
Ali Puli (17th century)
Daniel Stolz von Stolzenberg (Daniel Stolcius) (1600–1660)
Johannes Nicolaus Furichius (1602-1633)
Edward Dyer (d. 1607)
Basset Jhones (b. 1613)
Elias Ashmole (1617–1692)
Thomas Henshaw (1618–1700)
Edmund Dickinson (1624–1707)
Johann Friedrich Schweitzer (1625–1709)
Frederick Clod (b. 1625)
Giuseppe Francesco Borri (1627–1695)
Robert Boyle (1627–1691)
George Starkey (alchemist) (1628–1665)
Hening Brand (c.1630–1710)
Johann Kunckel (1630–1703)
Johann Joachim Becher (1635–1682)
Isaac Newton (1642–1727)
Claude Duval (1643–1670)
Dionysius Andreas Freher (1649–1728)
Georg von Welling (1652-1727)
Anton Josef Kirchweger ((d.1746))
Alessandro Cagliostro (1743–1795)
James Price (1752–1783)
Count of St Germain (d. 1784)
Johann Christoph von Wöllner (1732–1800)
August Nordenskiold (1754–1792)
August Strindberg (1849–1912)
Franz Tausend (1884–1942)
Johann Isaac Hollandus
Fulcanelli (pseudonym; dates unknown: Late 19th century – early 20th.)
R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz (1887-1961)

JDP
05-19-2017, 08:48 PM
When we read the works of Alchemists claiming how the stone prolongs human life and then search for the lifespan of the Alchemist making the claim we are met with disappointment in every case. The weight of the evidence is that Alchemists lived no longer then others.

Alain de Lille (Born from 1115 to 1128 – died in 1202(1203?))
Albertus Magnus (1193–1280)
Roger Bacon (1214–1294)
Pseudo-Geber (Spain, 13th century)
Ramon Llull (Raymond Lulli) (1235–1315)
Pope John XXII (1249–1334)
John Dastin (early 14th)
Arnold of Villanova (1245 – ?(before 1311))
Jean de Meung (c.1250 – c.1305)
Petrus Bonus (Early 14th century)
Ortolanus or Hortulanus (fl. 1358)
Jean de Roquetaillade (Johannes de Rupescissa ) (d. 1336)
Gilles de Rais (1401–1440)
Bernard Trevisan (Bernard of Treves) (1406–1490)
Johann of Laz (15th century)
George Ripley (England, 15th century)
Thomas Norton (c. 1433-c. 1513)
Johannes Trithemius (1462–1516)
Johann Georg Faust (ca. 1480–1540)
Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa (1486–1535)
Paracelsus (1493–1541)
Thomas Charnock (1516/1524/1526–1581)
François Hotman (1524–1590)
John Dee (1527–1609)
Gerhard Dorn (c. 1530–1584)
Martin Ruland the Elder (1532-1602)
Richard Stanihurst (1547–1618)
Tycho Brahe (1546–1601)
Samuel Norton (1548–1621)
Edward Kelley (1555–1597)
Basilius Valentinus (Basil Valentine) (16/17th century)
Andreas Libavius (1555–1616)
François Béroalde de Verville (1556–1626)
Heinrich Khunrath (circa 1560–1605)
Oswald Croll (circa 1563-1609)
Melchior Cibinensis (16th century)
Jean D'Espagnet (1564 – c. 1637)
Michał Sędziwój (1566–1636)
Benedictus Figulus (born 1567)
Michael Maier (1568–1622)
Martin Ruland the Younger (1569 – 1611)
Jacob Boehme (1575–1624)
Jan Baptist van Helmont (1577–1644)
Arthur Dee (1579–1651)
Johann Daniel Mylius (c. 1583-1642)
Johann Moriaen (1591-1668)
William Backhouse (1593 – 1662)
Baro Urbigerus
Ali Puli (17th century)
Daniel Stolz von Stolzenberg (Daniel Stolcius) (1600–1660)
Johannes Nicolaus Furichius (1602-1633)
Edward Dyer (d. 1607)
Basset Jhones (b. 1613)
Elias Ashmole (1617–1692)
Thomas Henshaw (1618–1700)
Edmund Dickinson (1624–1707)
Johann Friedrich Schweitzer (1625–1709)
Frederick Clod (b. 1625)
Giuseppe Francesco Borri (1627–1695)
Robert Boyle (1627–1691)
George Starkey (alchemist) (1628–1665)
Hening Brand (c.1630–1710)
Johann Kunckel (1630–1703)
Johann Joachim Becher (1635–1682)
Isaac Newton (1642–1727)
Claude Duval (1643–1670)
Dionysius Andreas Freher (1649–1728)
Georg von Welling (1652-1727)
Anton Josef Kirchweger ((d.1746))
Alessandro Cagliostro (1743–1795)
James Price (1752–1783)
Count of St Germain (d. 1784)
Johann Christoph von Wöllner (1732–1800)
August Nordenskiold (1754–1792)
August Strindberg (1849–1912)
Franz Tausend (1884–1942)
Johann Isaac Hollandus
Fulcanelli (pseudonym; dates unknown: Late 19th century – early 20th.)
R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz (1887-1961)

Many of the people in the above list were not "alchemists", though. Plus for many alchemists we have no certainty regarding date of birth and/or death.

pierre
05-19-2017, 09:18 PM
Many people wrote texts of alchemy without being alchemists.
And maybe some real alchemists never left written books.
We will never know.
Now, what separates a real alchemist from the fake one, only by reading his books?

Maybe there is someone in this forum that is 200 years old or more... ;)

Andro
05-19-2017, 09:28 PM
My grandmother lived longer than any of those people on the list :) (at least those with known dates of entry & exit...)


Maybe there is someone in this forum that is 200 years old or more... ;)

I guess we'll never know :confused: ...

Schmuldvich
05-19-2017, 10:24 PM
Excellent list, Luxus.

Thank for you compiling this!

JDP
05-19-2017, 11:07 PM
Many people wrote texts of alchemy without being alchemists.
And maybe some real alchemists never left written books.
We will never know.
Now, what separates a real alchemist from the fake one, only by reading his books?

Maybe there is someone in this forum that is 200 years old or more... ;)

For an author to qualify as an alchemist there's one requirement: his works have to be predominantly devoted to the subject of making the Philosophers' Stone/Elixir. And for an alchemist to qualify as a reputed "adept" there is one requirement as well: he has to either explicitly or implicitly state that he has been successful at the task. These requirements obviously disqualify a whole bunch of people from the above list. Even "chymists" like Kunckel or Becher, as heavily involved in the subject of transmutation as they were, cannot really be considered "alchemists", and even less "adepts" (their works are not primarily devoted to the subject of making the Stone, plus they never claimed to have actually been successful at preparing it.)

Kiorionis
05-20-2017, 03:33 AM
My grandmother lived longer than any of those people on the list :)

So that's who taught you your secrets!



I guess we'll never know :confused: ...

True. The Rules and Guidelines of the forum forbid revealing personal information.. Damn these pre-conceived structures!!

theFool
05-20-2017, 10:15 AM
This is a usefull list, thanks for compiling it!

Other similar threads:
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3819-Why-historical-alchemists-live-short-lives
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5171-Philosophical-Stone-really/page2


Johann Isaac Hollandus May I ask about Hollandus more specifically, what do we know about his life. When did he die? It seems that there is a lot of mystery around him. How did you end up putting him on that list?

pierre
05-20-2017, 12:57 PM
I have read that exist texts of two holandus. And this has created confusion with the identities of each one of them.


This is a usefull list, thanks for compiling it!

Other similar threads:
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3819

Salazius
05-20-2017, 01:30 PM
Gilles de Rais (1401–1440)

This one was executed.
He raped and murdered at leat 300 children (no exact number in fact) and practiced pedophil acts + black magick + alchemy on them.

Side note : He particularly enjoyed killing them (he loved blood a lot, so opening them or cutting throat) while raping them.

Please, don't considerate this monster as an alchemist.

Kiorionis
05-20-2017, 02:58 PM
We can always remove him from the list.

Luxus
05-20-2017, 03:09 PM
I want to make clear I did not compile this list myself, I meant to add the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alchemists

It is possible that the philosophers stone never got past the theory stage and that this theory had been developing over a considerable time. What do we say about those who in their text say they have carried out the work with their own hands? well humans are humans I guess. Some of those Alchemists are on this list and we can see that despite the claims their lifespan was unimpressive!

Seth-Ra
05-20-2017, 03:27 PM
I may be overlooking it, but I don't see my boy Flamel in that list.
What's up with that? :D lol

Murgen
05-20-2017, 05:21 PM
I do not think that longevity has to be understood that way.

It is said the the PAR-ergon ("physical possession of God", the "Stone") is helpful since it allows the alchemist to have enough time to accomplish ERGON (glory body).

In this sense, it is not weird anymore to physically die at 50, 60, 70 ...
It makes no sense to stay is this "layer" when you have exhausted all the growing possibilities (except for helping but that is an other subject).
When the software is too complex for the hardware, we are happy to change.

JDP
05-20-2017, 07:08 PM
I want to make clear I did not compile this list myself, I meant to add the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alchemists

It is possible that the philosophers stone never got past the theory stage and that this theory had been developing over a considerable time. What do we say about those who in their text say they have carried out the work with their own hands? well humans are humans I guess.

But that assumption leaves a big problem: plenty of people who were not alchemists themselves, some of whom were even skeptic critics of alchemy, saw samples of Stone with their own eyes and some even handled it and put it to the test with their own hands... and it performed as claimed! Obviously some people must have been preparing this "thing". This was no mere theoretical fancy but an actual substance which had at least some of the properties commonly claimed to possess in the literature on the subject.

Luxus
05-21-2017, 03:14 PM
But that assumption leaves a big problem: plenty of people who were not alchemists themselves, some of whom were even skeptic critics of alchemy, saw samples of Stone with their own eyes and some even handled it and put it to the test with their own hands... and it performed as claimed! Obviously some people must have been preparing this "thing". This was no mere theoretical fancy but an actual substance which had at least some of the properties commonly claimed to possess in the literature on the subject.
Why has this not occurred in our time? why no photos or videos on youtube of transmuting base metals into gold?

I mean it could be true, I hope its true but this is one of the reasons I study alternative paths as a backup plan.

Luxus
05-21-2017, 03:25 PM
I may be overlooking it, but I don't see my boy Flamel in that list.
What's up with that? :D lol

78 years (1340-1418)

michael maier only lived 54 years (1568–1622) yet in his works he gives the usual Alchemical story about how longevity can be greatly extended and how he has held the stone in his own hands.

I mean its also possible that all these alchemists had to fake their own deaths.

Luxus
05-21-2017, 03:33 PM
Many people regard Aleister crowley to have been a master magician able to summon daemons and command the elementals...yet he died alone in an old peoples home, where was his powers then?

oh and btw he also claimed in his 40s that he knew what the philosophers stone was and that he had made it himself.

Seth-Ra
05-21-2017, 05:58 PM
78 years (1340-1418)

...

I mean its also possible that all these alchemists had to fake their own deaths.

Considering Flamel's grave was empty when they tried to rob it, it stands to reason he faked his. :D

JDP
05-22-2017, 03:41 AM
Why has this not occurred in our time? why no photos or videos on youtube of transmuting base metals into gold?

I mean it could be true, I hope its true but this is one of the reasons I study alternative paths as a backup plan.

It is comparatively rare that someone discovers how to make it, plus those who do usually either rather remain quiet and tell no one about it or choose to show the reality of the Stone through others via donated samples. However, once you give a sample to someone you no longer are in control of what happens to it, you depend on that person's integrity regarding what will the donated sample be used for. So you could give a sample to someone you considered trustworthy and who you agreed with will embark on a "crusade" to convince others via demonstrations (which sometimes happened), yet the fellow turned out to be rather different than you thought he would be and instead uses the donated sample for his own gain (which also sometimes happened.) So the chances that we will see in our times actual demonstrations of the Stone in action is rather slim. But don't discount it altogether either. It MAY happen again, just like it happened in the past.

Visceral
07-15-2017, 08:16 PM
I find there is a disturbing lack of faith amongst persons interested in this sort of thing. Maybe doublethink is a better term. They'll profess (directly or not) they believe in such things as infinite transmutations being possible but not infinite life being possible.

I have my own theories on this regarding an "Internal" stone needing to be combined with an "External" one, with either/or giving only partial results, but if someone truly made the real Stone I would EXPECT to bump into them some day, from Hermes and his friends on down.

I find it interesting that we have no bodies or Graves for most of these people and they all seemed to dissappear right around when photography was perfected and autopsies were becoming standard post mortem, making faking your death that much harder.

I would very much expect a couple of things:

1) There is a trick to making either/both Stones, or in the method of combining them that you WILL NOT FIGURE OUT without the aid of an adept.

2) Posting pictures or trying to draw attention to yourself online would inevitably result in serious entities showing up in your face, maybe ones you wouldn't mind and maybe ones you really would. If you went out in the woods and started experimenting with uranium you will find there are groups that do nothing but sit around trying to find emissions of experiments just like that and they will have no trouble whatever finding you.

3) Probably the root of every secret society is based on the need of the Adepts to keep the secret I mentioned above from falling into less savory hands, like the groups that support the entity that usurped the Abrahamic religions.

Although with how much funding evil and violence has these days I do wonder if someone slipped up somewhere along the line. Maybe when they raided Teslas laboratory?