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Andro
02-12-2014, 04:29 PM
A summary of Hermetic foundations in a book.

Based on & around 7 Hermetic Principles, which are:

1. Mentality/'Mentalism'
2. Correspondence
3. Vibration
4. Rhythm
5. Polarity
6. Cause and Effect
7. Gender

I'm sure many here are already familiar with this work.

For those who aren't (yet), here are a few ways to access the book:

Audiobook as YouTube Chapter Playlist (American accent) HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwOPemFsHUk&list=PLL2XfhgwzOWVpw0V2crENhaDUn-bbN9-n).

Audiobook as one single YouTube upload of almost 4 hours (English accent) HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvV8vLON-nY).

Free PDF download HERE (http://www.masterkeysystem.tv/pdf/kybalion-en.pdf).

Andro
02-13-2014, 04:53 AM
I've noticed how some parts of the 'Kybalion' perspective sit quite well with Tom Campbell's 'Virtual Reality' theory (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3897-Tom-s-Big-TOE).

Otherwise, the info seems rather compromised & somewhat 'corrupted' when compared to older sources, and I personally find a lot of 'holes' in the Kybalion cheese. But it's good stuff nevertheless.

Always a good idea (IMO) to cross-reference various sources, like with all philosophinformative material of this kind...

Andro
02-14-2014, 09:16 AM
Upon second reading, the book is deep in some aspects, but rather naive and immature in others.

There are lots of childish explanations, logical fallacies and assumptions based on the Author's personal/cultural perspective and influences (Herbert Spencer, Theosophy, some 'New Thought', etc...)

He tends to repeatedly belittle mankind/the human experience ("we poor, petty mortals" and such...) and also to prove his assumptions based on the same assumptions he is trying to prove...

IMO, this work is definitely NOT a comprehensive foundation of Hermetic Philosophy. It is full of 'bugs'.

However, gems aren't lacking either.

For alchemical practice, there are some interesting leads, especially when he describes the realm of 'Undifferentiated Matter' and the realm of the 'Spirit' as the two (touching) extremes of the continuum comprising the planes of reality.

I can see how materials like this book can lead people to believe that 'god' or 'the All' is a separate 'entity' from Creation.

This is IMO a major flaw, in both conceptualization and the reasoning used to 'support' this claim. You'll have to read/listen and decide independently...

But no rose without thorns, ey?

Ghislain
02-14-2014, 09:31 AM
"the realm of 'Undifferentiated Matter'"

This is exactly what Campbell was talking about, "the probability", undifferentiated until it is fixed.

I haven't listened or read your links yet Androgynus, but now you have my interest.

Ghislain

Andro
02-14-2014, 09:56 AM
This is exactly what Campbell was talking about, "the probability", undifferentiated until it is fixed.

Actually, the Kybalion talks about actual (sort of) matter (not probable), but belonging to the lowest of the lowest realm (i.e. 'Tartarus'), not yet specified to anything (i.e. 'undifferentiated').

However, in the greater scheme of things (according to the Kybalion), ALL matter is 'virtual reality' (not just the undifferentiated), all being only a mental projection of 'The All'.

But I can see how the two perspectives can complement each other...

It is only 'real' when experienced from inside its own realm, i.e. 'relative'. The book makes an interesting distinction between 'real' and 'true', as in 'what's real isn't necessarily true'...


I haven't listened or read your links yet Androgynus, but now you have my interest.

Well my dear, I can't expect your immediate interest without a bit of foreplay :)

Ghislain
08-19-2015, 06:52 AM
Scene two...or is it? ;)

Click on pic!

http://upw-prod-images.global.ssl.fastly.net/nugget/553ff2e4396536002caa0100/attachments/quote1-dee0408cdac8fbd278da555250db3b26.jpg (http://www.upworthy.com/if-watching-a-movie-is-like-seeing-another-world-then-his-latest-film-is-like-teleporting-to-one?c=reccon3)

Ghislain

Awani
08-19-2015, 06:15 PM
Great stuff. I welcome the VR future with open arms.

:cool:

Andro
08-19-2015, 08:20 PM
I welcome the VR future with open arms.

Future?

We're in 'it' already and 'always' have 'been' :)
_______
I.M.S.U.

Kiorionis
08-19-2015, 10:33 PM
Based on & around 7 Hermetic Principles, which are:

1. Mentality/'Mentalism'
2. Correspondence
3. Vibration
4. Rhythm
5. Polarity
6. Cause and Effect
7. Gender

It's been awhile since I've read the Kybalion, but I wonder if these correspondences make sense to anyone who has read it recently or remembers it well

Mentality - Crown 'chakra'
Correspondence - Third Eye
Vibration - Throat
Rhythm - Heart
Polarity - Solar Plexus
Cause and Effect - Sacral
Gender - Root

Michael Sternbach
08-20-2015, 09:40 AM
Upon second reading, the book is deep in some aspects, but rather naive and immature in others.

Well, the book claims to have several authors. Looks like at least one of them was Paul Foster Case, a member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn for a while, who also wrote stuff about Spiritual Alchemy and is particularly known for his important books on Tarot.


There are lots of childish explanations, logical fallacies and assumptions based on the Author's personal/cultural perspective and influences (Herbert Spencer, Theosophy, some 'New Thought', etc...)

Surely, the book is a child of its time. And eclecticism has always been a feature of Hermetic writings.


He tends to repeatedly belittle mankind/the human experience ("we poor, petty mortals" and such...) and also to prove his assumptions based on the same assumptions he is trying to prove...

IMO, this work is definitely NOT a comprehensive foundation of Hermetic Philosophy. It is full of 'bugs'.

However, gems aren't lacking either.

For alchemical practice, there are some interesting leads, especially when he describes the realm of 'Undifferentiated Matter' and the realm of the 'Spirit' as the two (touching) extremes of the continuum comprising the planes of reality.

Good catch. Prima materia and Ultima Materia, one might say - the latter being the Philosopher's Stone, which is a pure manifestation of Spirit. Also Chaos and Cosmos. And Mercury and Sulfur.


I can see how materials like this book can lead people to believe that 'god' or 'the All' is a separate 'entity' from Creation.

This is IMO a major flaw, in both conceptualization and the reasoning used to 'support' this claim. You'll have to read/listen and decide independently...

Exactly my problem with the book. Maybe those statements were made in order to counteract the ego inflation that sometimes happens to folks who have glimpsed their essential divinity.

But to be fair, esoteric books from the pre-modern era were typically quite moralistic (i.e. Theosophic literature, but even some revered Alchemical texts as well as texts in the Corpus Hermeticum).


But no rose without thorns, ey?

The reverse doesn't always equally hold true. Yes, there is a rose to behold here, even for modern eyes.

Ghislain
08-20-2015, 05:14 PM
Great stuff. I welcome the VR future with open arms.

:cool:

Another fractal level :)

http://thealchemyforum.com/Images/Alex's Hall

Ghislain

Ghislain
08-21-2015, 05:17 PM
Well my dear, I can't expect your immediate interest without a bit of foreplay :)

Foreplay successful...listened to the whole thing.

Found it most interesting, if a little dogmatic in as much as they assume a considerable amount and then profess it as truth.

I can see what you mean where you say, "I personally find a lot of 'holes' in the Kybalion cheese. But it's good stuff nevertheless." Androgynus.

I like and can relate to the Seven Hermetic Principles.

Ghislain

Ghislain
08-21-2015, 05:34 PM
It's been awhile since I've read the Kybalion, but I wonder if these correspondences make sense to anyone who has read it recently or remembers it well

Mentality - Crown 'chakra'
Correspondence - Third Eye
Vibration - Throat
Rhythm - Heart
Polarity - Solar Plexus
Cause and Effect - Sacral
Gender - Root

What do those correspondences mean to you Kiorionis...?

Ghislain

zoas23
08-21-2015, 11:33 PM
Upon second reading, the book is deep in some aspects, but rather naive and immature in others.

(...)

He tends to repeatedly belittle mankind/the human experience ("we poor, petty mortals" and such...) and also to prove his assumptions based on the same assumptions he is trying to prove...

IMO, this work is definitely NOT a comprehensive foundation of Hermetic Philosophy. It is full of 'bugs'.




Well, the book claims to have several authors. Looks like at least one of them was Paul Foster Case, a member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn for a while, who also wrote stuff about Spiritual Alchemy and is particularly known for his important books on Tarot.

I think that Paul Foster Case was the three authors. Pretending to be three just as a reference to the idea of "Trismegistus".

Foster Case was a member of the Alpha et Omega, which was in my opinion, the better version that the classical Golden Dawn had.

However, Foster Case, was a very atypical one. He has a lot of phobias about "magic" and was convinces that usual theurgic practices of the Alhpa et Omega (Golden Dawn) could lead to "satanic results". His mindset was, by far more religious than theurgical.

The Kybalion is very much like a "photo" of his psyche.

The famous 7 principles are, for sure, an influence he received from the Golden Dawn... specially from the Qabalah lessons of the Golden Dawn and not really from the "Corpus Hermeticum" (with a stress on the school of Luria, the book by von Rosenroth and a specific Arcanum of the Qabalah which has no known author, but mostly links the Genesis / Cosmogony with Qabalah and Alchemy, though only as a "theory" -i.e, I know the Arcanum and I'd say that it would be quite hard to guess a way in which it can be translated to a practice in a Lab).

And then the idiocracy of Foster Case... which is probably more "religious" than "theurgic" and has a lot of "we, poor mortals".

I do not think that Case had in mind the Chakras when he created the 7 principles.
The number 7 is very much like a "fetish" number in the Golden Dawn and it is typical to find Golden Dawn texts in which different things are divided in 7 principles, 7 officers, 7 whatever....

This 7 is sometimes linked to the 7 "classical" planets and sometimes not... but I have never seen (in the context of the Golden Dawn) a link between this 7 and the Chakras (indeed, the Golden Dawn has 3 different systems of "chakras", one of them is a system of 5 and it is the so called "middle pillar", the other one is a system of 10 and it is the projection of the 10 sephiroth in the body, finally a system of 7 that is based on the "hindu Chakras" and it is mostly used in correspondence with the Tattwas, but it's the least developed one).

I don't really think that Case had such thing in mind whilst creating his 7 principles... though, of course, it is not a sin to create an hypothesis and unite both ideas if it leads to an interesting result.

Other than that, I do see the famous Kybalion as a text that is quite overrated. It is nice, but I don't know if it goes beyond than just being "nice".

Michael Sternbach
08-23-2015, 10:18 PM
The famous 7 principles are, for sure, an influence he received from the Golden Dawn... specially from the Qabalah lessons of the Golden Dawn and not really from the "Corpus Hermeticum" (with a stress on the school of Luria, the book by von Rosenroth and a specific Arcanum of the Qabalah which has no known author, but mostly links the Genesis / Cosmogony with Qabalah and Alchemy, though only as a "theory" -i.e, I know the Arcanum and I'd say that it would be quite hard to guess a way in which it can be translated to a practice in a Lab).

Where can I find the Arcanum? Is it in the "black brick" published by Regardie, or can it be downloaded somewhere?


And then the idiocracy of Foster Case... which is probably more "religious" than "theurgic" and has a lot of "we, poor mortals".

I do not think that Case had in mind the Chakras when he created the 7 principles.
The number 7 is very much like a "fetish" number in the Golden Dawn and it is typical to find Golden Dawn texts in which different things are divided in 7 principles, 7 officers, 7 whatever....

This 7 is sometimes linked to the 7 "classical" planets and sometimes not... but I have never seen (in the context of the Golden Dawn) a link between this 7 and the Chakras (indeed, the Golden Dawn has 3 different systems of "chakras", one of them is a system of 5 and it is the so called "middle pillar", the other one is a system of 10 and it is the projection of the 10 sephiroth in the body, finally a system of 7 that is based on the "hindu Chakras" and it is mostly used in correspondence with the Tattwas, but it's the least developed one).

I don't really think that Case had such thing in mind whilst creating his 7 principles... though, of course, it is not a sin to create an hypothesis and unite both ideas if it leads to an interesting result.

It goes without saying that there are generally lots of Septenaries in the occult tradition. Some can be meaningfully superposed, others can't. Case also presents a model of seven levels of existence in the book as far as I remember. But the seven principles don't seem to be direct analogies to those, or to the chakras or planets.


Other than that, I do see the famous Kybalion as a text that is quite overrated. It is nice, but I don't know if it goes beyond than just being "nice".

Well, I would agree that it partially looks outdated, but besides being a summary of some important principles in a fairly entertaining form, it conveys certain concepts that I personally find thought provoking. For example, it differentiates between Polarity (as a lower/higher kind of relationship) and Gender (a relationship on the same plane). The former would be exemplified by the relationship between the Sun and Saturn, the latter by the Sun and the Moon, in my understanding. So the text seems to contain subtleties that could be elaborated on.

zoas23
08-24-2015, 05:22 AM
Where can I find the Arcanum? Is it in the "black brick" published by Regardie, or can it be downloaded somewhere?

I believe it has never been published.
It is simply an Arcanum that is heavily based on Gematria and the calligraphy or "pictorial form" of the Hebrew letters and relates the whole thing with the THEORY of Alchemy*, specially the correspondence between the undifferentiated first matter and the last matter.

*The nature of the first matter, the last matter, the secret fire, the vessel and the process... though without providing a "recipe".

It does not really say something that either Andrgynus or Ghyslain is not saying here, it is simply a bit more "elegant".

I can't publish it here, but don't worry... it's very beautiful, but it's not really the best text ever written in the history of mankind.



It goes without saying that there are generally lots of Septenaries in the occult tradition. Some can be meaningfully superposed, others can't. Case also presents a model of seven levels of existence in the book as far as I remember. But the seven principles don't seem to be direct analogies to those, or to the chakras or planets.


As someone who has been involved with the Golden Dawn (for decades) and many other similar orders, it gets quite obvious for me that the Kybalion is VERY inspired by the Golden Dawn, but through the unusual views of Foster Case... a very "atypical" Golden Dawner.

The "Chakras" theory is probably misleading because the chakras have a very minor importance in the Golden Dawn... and when Case left the Golden Dawn to create his own "version" of the Golden Dawn (B.O.T.A.), the chakras became even less important.

Such thing doesn't mean that a person can relate the whole thing with Chakras and arrive to an awesome theory, that's possible... I am just saying that it was probably not the intention that the author (Foster Case) has in mind.



Well, I would agree that it partially looks outdated, but besides being a summary of some important principles in a fairly entertaining form, it conveys certain concepts that I personally find thought provoking. For example, it differentiates between Polarity (as a lower/higher kind of relationship) and Gender (a relationship on the same plane). The former would be exemplified by the relationship between the Sun and Saturn, the latter by the Sun and the Moon, in my understanding. So the text seems to contain subtleties that could be elaborated on.

It is my belief that Case was trying to develop an Arcanum and the Kybalion was his first attempt, somehow failed.

And then he wrote his "Book of Tokens" that is related to Tarot and used it as the foundational text for his own order.

With the Kyalion he wanted to give a sense of "false antiquity" and somehow attach it to the fame of the "Corpus hermeticum". I do not think he has succeeded.

Other than that... it's a book woth reading, but hardly an amazing book (but "worth reading" is quite good actually... most books written on the genre of the "Occult" often don't deverse such title).

Michael Sternbach
08-24-2015, 05:07 PM
As someone who has been involved with the Golden Dawn (for decades) and many other similar orders, it gets quite obvious for me that the Kybalion is VERY inspired by the Golden Dawn, but through the unusual views of Foster Case... a very "atypical" Golden Dawner.

Well, I have been studying Golden Dawn texts a few decades myself, and I am not sure what you perceive as specifically "golden dawnish" about the Kybalion. Perhaps you could elaborate a little?

Frankly, I am also not sure in what respect Case would be an "atypical" Golden Dawner - most of them were rather individualistic.


The "Chakras" theory is probably misleading because the chakras have a very minor importance in the Golden Dawn... and when Case left the Golden Dawn to create his own "version" of the Golden Dawn (B.O.T.A.), the chakras became even less important.

Such thing doesn't mean that a person can relate the whole thing with Chakras and arrive to an awesome theory, that's possible... I am just saying that it was probably not the intention that the author (Foster Case) has in mind.

Probably not. But as you imply, there is no need for correspondences between esoteric systems to be intentional from the outset in order to work. Actually, I find them most convincing when they were not intended. It sort of confirms that they are in fact a feature of metaphysical reality.

Reviewing Kirionis' theory, it's actually pretty interesting in parts, although to (perhaps) convince me, some of the analogies would need to be further explained.


It is my belief that Case was trying to develop an Arcanum and the Kybalion was his first attempt, somehow failed.

And then he wrote his "Book of Tokens" that is related to Tarot and used it as the foundational text for his own order.

With the Kyalion he wanted to give a sense of "false antiquity" and somehow attach it to the fame of the "Corpus hermeticum". I do not think he has succeded.

It's an inspiring story nevertheless, imo - illustrating the holistic/holographic nature of Hermetic thinking. Many good stories in the Hermetic literature don't hold up to historical scrutiny. ;)

zoas23
08-24-2015, 06:37 PM
Well, I have been studying Golden Dawn texts a few decades myself, and I am not sure what you perceive as specifically "golden dawnish" about the Kybalion. Perhaps you could elaborate a little?

Frankly, I am also not sure in what respect Case would be an "atypical" Golden Dawner - most of them were rather individualistic.

I'm a member of the Golden Dawn among SEVERAL other orders... I'm not a "Golden Dawn hooligan" that will tell you that Golden Dawn is the only real and worthy order (indeed, I am involved with several orders, not just the Golden Dawn.... and I love diversity... I respect all Orders, unless they are cults -Samael Aum Weor or Scientology comes to my mind).

The Kybalion is very influenced by Golden Dawn ideas, specially the "7 principles".

(i.e, I am very familiar with different branches of Martinism and I would say that the Kybalion is 100% unrelated to Martinism).

Foster Case HATED enochian and had a weird fetish with Tarot. A Golden Dawner who hates enochian is very much like a scientologist who is not interested in extraterrestrials.

The main influenced of the Kybalion are the way in which the Qabalah of Luria and the Qabalah of Rosenroth were understood in the Golden Dawn.


I don't think that Foster Case had the Chakras in mind, but as you've said... if something of worth can be brought by introducing the Chakras, then that's good. I am not against such thing (though I am somehow against the idea that the text is "secretly" talking about the Chakras, but that's not the same thing).

And, yes, lots of "Hermetic Texts" suggest a false antiquity and some of them are great (the Chaldean Oracles are among my favorites in that sense... they are not Chaldean, they are not by Zoroaster.... they are great). The famous text by Flamel was, almost for sure, not written by Flamel. etc...