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Awani
02-17-2014, 05:00 PM
In the past, present and most probably in the future we will have, and have had, people here in the forums that suffer from megalomania. People who say they are Masters, Adepts or have the 100% truth in their possession - and everyone else is wrong.

What I, personally, have discovered studying alchemy is humility and open-mindedness. The deeper I go the less of a Master I feel I need to be. Master status is for shallow and ridiculous people. If you need the verification of OTHER people you don't, by instant default, deserve any respect or reverence at all. IMO.

For arguments sake here is an example from this website: http://www.alchemy.ws


Alchemy.ws is the only source of true information about alchemy that exists in the world. This is a site for honest, genuine seekers of nature's secrets. Everyone else please go away.

I don't know about ya'll, but reading this my first gut feeling was to GO AWAY... far away. Which I did.

Question: it seems to me alchemy attracts megalomaniacs and why is that (or is this a trait that all kinds of areas/movements/subject suffer from eventually)?

:cool:

Disclaimer: this thread is not about any certain individuals or websites... the one I used above was just an example.

Illen A. Cluf
02-17-2014, 05:16 PM
What I, personally, have discovered studying alchemy is humility and open-mindedness. The deeper I go the less of a Master I feel I need to be. Master status is for shallow and ridiculous people. If you need the verification of OTHER people you don't, by instant default, deserve any respect or reverence at all. IMO.

For arguments sake here is an example from this website: http://www.alchemy.ws


Not too surprising! That site seems to belong to the egotistical author of "The Book of Aquarius", who has never made the Stone, but who already seems to consider himself a true Master. (He admits on the site to being the author).

There are more and more lonely people on this planet, feeling more and more dissociated from society. This is likely their pathetic attempt to become that "special" person they crave to be, now that they can communicate anonymously world-wide through the net. Before they were nothing. Now they have 'followers" praising them and making them feel special. Alchemy and other esoteric and New Age interests are huge attractors for these lonely types. I've seen this time and time again. It works great for them, but is a poison to the naive followers.

Awani
02-17-2014, 05:17 PM
You might be right. Digital Messiah syndrome!

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
02-17-2014, 05:20 PM
Digital Messiah syndrome!



I like that phrase - very appropriate!

Illen A. Cluf
02-17-2014, 05:26 PM
Interesting related article (just substitute "Messiah" with "Master" or "Self-Acclaimed Adept":

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/mistic/religionsplanetearth57.htm

Awani
02-17-2014, 05:33 PM
Messiah complex is common with people who have had a big emotional breakthrough with ayahuasca. They (myself included) can feel like they have to convert the whole world. They want everyone to experience what they have experienced... it is very easy to fall into Messianic or Preachy behavior. But after a while, for most people, the dust settles and one realizes that you can't bring peace, enlightenment or wisdom to other people. They can only do that to themselves.

The only thing you can do is be a good signpost. And which signpost would you follow? One that says "try this path, I had a very good time over there" or one that says "follow me, this path is the truth and I am your leader".

I know my choice.

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
02-17-2014, 06:41 PM
And which signpost would you follow? One that says "try this path, I had a very good time over there" or one that says "follow me, this path is the truth and I am your leader".


I think that interaction is essential for any type of learning. I find the best people to interact with are those who are filled with passion for the wonders of this world, are truly open-minded, are humble, and are creative. I think that most of us have different important snippets of the truth, based on a unique individual lifetime of experience and learning and that we are meant to share these pieces to build a puzzle together.

III
02-18-2014, 07:00 AM
I guess that makes me unique, from a long line of nobodies.

solomon levi
02-18-2014, 07:48 AM
Even the Messiah was tested by a messiah complex :D I think it's an integral part of the path. It's easier to notice those who "fail" the test than those who pass. :)

Dragonsblood
02-18-2014, 01:36 PM
Messiah complex is common with people who have had a big emotional breakthrough with ayahuasca. But the world would be so much more boring without the likes of David Icke..

Any contact with expanded consciousness will enthuse and temporary instability is to be expected and tolerated in another seeker - "This will make him, in the early stages, fanatical to a degree. He will be continually swept off his feet with new ideals, new isms, new modes of living, new dreams for race betterment. He will take up one cult after another as they seem to make possible the coming millennium. But after a time he regains his poise, and purpose assumes control of his life. He works at his own job, and carries forward his contribution to the activity of the whole, to the best of his ability." - A Treatise on White Magic (1951)

Sometimes wonder what could warrant a messiah complex - how can one not be humbled when comparing your "discoveries, insights, creations" against those of a Da Vinci, Beethoven, Shakespeare, Tesla etc. Maybe lack of subtlety is the mark of a messiah complex, where true Masters brilliantly veil Truth so as not to overpower and destabilise the seeker.

Ghislain
02-18-2014, 02:17 PM
Perhaps one needs to look at motivation; it is only the individual that can be motivated by their
inner feelings; all other types of motivation are temporary.

For instance, to motivate another by reward one must keep raising the reward of the reward loses
its appeal.

To motivate another through threat, the threat must be maintained, but the threatened will
rebel given the chance.

So to motivate another you have to make them believe what you want is good for them or that it is
what they want...perhaps a bit more than just want as I want many things that I am not motivated
enough to obtain.

However there are those that like to lead, those that like to follow and those that don't give a shit
either way.

There are those that like to lead who should be followers, those that like to follow that should be
leaders, and those that don't give a shit either way.

Then there are those who are followed and are unaware, those that led and are unaware, but those
who don't give a shit are usually not followed or easily led.

I have no desire to lead and certainly no desire to follow, so does that mean I don't give a shit?

:confused:

Ghislain

Andro
02-18-2014, 02:26 PM
I have no desire to lead and certainly no desire to follow

There's a difference between leadership and megalomania, they're not necessarily a package deal.


So does that mean I don't give a shit?

There's that saying - "Lead, follow or get out of the way".

I think it's an army/corporate thing.

I somehow feel it might not apply to you :)

I think you can live your life to your satisfaction without leading or following, while still giving a shit or two :p

But ultimately, only you can answer that :cool:

Krisztian
02-18-2014, 04:04 PM
Some of the struggles can also be attributed to mental health issues. Some are born with an already chemically-imbalanced brain, that's difficult to manage throughout life, especially when people tend to have little self-awareness.

Mania is only one aspect. Personality disorders (i.e., Borderline, Narcissistic, etc.) are almost always don't get recognized. Aside from 'free will', motivation, and other concepts, people with mental health can easily be and are victims of their own biological inheritance.

Andro
02-18-2014, 04:39 PM
people with mental health can easily be and are victims of their own biological inheritance.

Apart from admitting there is a problem (which can be the hardest part), are there ways to remedy this, possibly apart from medication?

Of course, if we're talking specifically about the Alchemist 'brand' of megalomania/narcissism/etc - then IMO it only shows how questionable the alchemical progress really is...

Or when dealing with 'Ormus' (I'm not a fan, but that's just me) and some people who make/promote it, it has been said that 'Ormus' only amplifies one's natural/inherent qualities/tendencies, so if there is a pathology present, 'Ormus' may (allegedly) amplify it...

But here (in this thread) we are dealing specifically with such tendencies in the Alchemical community.

Andro
02-18-2014, 04:43 PM
I guess that makes me unique, from a long line of nobodies.

III,

Care to elaborate, please?

What makes you "unique, from a long line of nobodies" ?

Krisztian
02-18-2014, 06:47 PM
Apart from admitting there is a problem (which can be the hardest part), are there ways to remedy this, possibly apart from medication?

Maybe that's why the Ancients insisted that real gain (viz., internal and laboratory) can only be had by the assistance of an initiated alchemist [teacher]. If one listens carefully, then all of the megalomaniac claims come from uninitiated persons working alone . No feedback, in other words.

I'm just thinking.

My previous point about mental health was simply that people struggle with serious imbalances of the brain already, and when one lived with that circuitry their entire life, it's hard to know what's real and what's not, what's normal and what's mania.


Of course, if we're talking specifically about the Alchemist 'brand' of megalomania/narcissism/etc - then IMO it only shows how questionable the alchemical progress really is...

True. No feedback, then one is left to the sometimes delusional thinking (viz., unclaimed Shadow) of one's own mind. What I mean by 'initiated' is that the Shadow isn't running the show, or it's bypassed by various methods.


Or when dealing with [I]'Ormus' (I'm not a fan, but that's just me) and some people who make/promote it, it has been said that 'Ormus' only amplifies one's natural/inherent qualities/tendencies, so if there is a pathology present, 'Ormus' may (allegedly) amplify it...

I see that with other products of spagyrics as well. I see that to be a reality, yes.

It is the consciousness that's amplified, which is now captured in a material we call The Stone.

Awani
02-18-2014, 08:15 PM
But the world would be so much more boring without the likes of David Icke.

Icke doesn't fall under the Messiah/Megalomania issue at all. He repeatedly tells people not to believe him but to see for themselves. I never perceived Icke to behave like an Adept or Guru. He has his own agenda, but he is not trying to convert people claiming he is right and everyone else is wrong. He just puts down his thoughts and that's it. He also doesn't take himself so seriously. At least this is my experience of Icke.

In fact Dawkins behaves more like a Megalomania than Icke does... ironic considering the fact that Dawkins is the most likely (logically thinking) to have the biggest chance of being RIGHT.

:cool:

ChiNamo
02-18-2014, 09:22 PM
For arguments sake here is an example from this website: http://www.alchemy.ws

“alchemy.ws is the only source of true information about alchemy that exists in the world. This is a site for honest, genuine seekers of nature's secrets. Everyone else please go away.”


It sounds like an advert to me. One supposed to be very dense, arrogant, and primitive not to feel the inappropriateness of that statement from the mouth of an adept. Is he really that dense? I don’t think so. After reading his book and taking a peek into his forum, he comes through more like someone with a definite agenda. Like someone paid to create confusion and deception to discredit alchemy in the eyes of the enthusiasts.

The above advert is based on mass psychology. They target the masses not individuals. Few intelligent people with some alchemical studies behind you may recognize the trap straight away. But the majority of people are utterly lost after reading an old recipe or two, so they will start to seek modern versions and experts. Seeing that these experts are also contradicting each other most of the time, now they are desperate to find the “source of true information”. So it just makes good sense to offer them what they want. It is a good, old, time tested PR technique; “Offer them what they seek and you will surely attract them”. Does it feel awkward and megalomaniac? Sure, but they don’t care about that. The agenda, and the number of attracted people is more important than to worry about a fictitious Author’s internet personality fault.

Just my 2 cents.

Dragonsblood
02-19-2014, 08:53 AM
If one listens carefully, then all of the megalomaniac claims come from uninitiated persons working alone [in the lab]. No feedback, in other words.

Keeping grounded becomes challenging as energy picks up and awareness expands, having someone to relate to is incredibly valuable and personally would have gone significantly (more?) off track without the honest feedback of others. Knowing the risks many of the old mystery schools thouroughly humiliated the candidate at initiations, a tradition that is still reflected in modern day college initations, stag nights, etc.

Even if alone it is possible to solicit feedback - "In order to keep a true perspective of one's importance, everyone should have a dog that will worship him and a cat that will ignore him."

vega33
02-19-2014, 08:13 PM
Some of the struggles can also be attributed to mental health issues. Some are born with an already chemically-imbalanced brain, that's difficult to manage throughout life, especially when people tend to have little self-awareness.

Mania is only one aspect. Personality disorders (i.e., Borderline, Narcissistic, etc.) are almost always don't get recognized. Aside from 'free will', motivation, and other concepts, people with mental health can easily be and are victims of their own biological inheritance.

When going through Kundalini Awakening especially I think that is a possibility. My experience originally led me to believe that the best solution would be super-nutrition to ensure that one could keep the incredibly high brain/spinal voltage that seems to be required to live with the level of intensity one experiences with consciousness expanding experiences. Dopamine was my initial focus, but it is of course much more complex than that.

The problem of course is that humility, as with arrogance/"experiencing ego", is a learned experience, not an innate one. Can we honestly say that either the humble person who claims they are just god's caretaker, or the egotist who believes in their own self-importance, have any more accurate appreciation of the situation than the other? For making decisions, it is useful to have a lessened self of self-importance as well as fear to prevent ones-self from negatively reacting against a perceived threat. However, in a different situation, increased appreciation of the importance of this or that life experience might be more useful. I'm reminded of this interaction between The Doctor and Rose:



Rose: So what you’re saying is, the whole world revolves around you?
The Doctor: Sort of, yeah.
Rose: You’re full of it.
The Doctor: Sort of, yeah.


The ability to maintain at the same time that the whole world revolves around you, and that you're full of it. In a way any state of consciousness when amplified to a high enough degree could be seen as pathological.

The key seems to be being able to make your thinking flexible enough to fit around corners. EFA's, for example, are really useful in developing quick thinking. The DHA molecule bends and changes shape a lot in response to environmental stimuli. The ability to speed up thought and reaction times by changing the diet you consume could potentially be the best defense against things like megalomania.

As someone who does a lot of thinking, and experiences the negative side effects of too much ungated nervous energy, I can say that having the right mediums or mechanisms in place to keep that mental energy moving definitely helps to prevent stagnation and obsessive thought processes. One needs the energy there in the first place - thats where ATP, ketones etc come in - and then the substrate on which that dance takes place must be there.

Also, on the spiritual side of things, meditation -- learning to control that energy which is moving through ones own body and causing the thoughts you're having -- becomes important not only as a tool of sanity, but as a tool for the conservation of energy which becomes necessary in order to accomplish greatness. I feel this aspect especially as a native with Sun square Saturn -- efficient mobilisation of your own energy reserves will completely change your own thought processes, since ones own energy levels and control over them relate psychologically to your own deeply root concepts of security/survival ("do I have enough energy/resources to survive?"), control (whether you feel your life is in control or not depends partially on the level of constant mental fluctuations), and emotional reality.

Ghislain
02-20-2014, 01:42 AM
Vega33, you're full of it. :)

Just kidding...

I get what you are saying as depending on my energy state I can see the same situation in completely differing ways.

I have recently told myself when I'm up that when I am down I will remember this state of up and look to see what has changed.
You start to realise it is you and not your state of affairs that has changed and it is quite uplifting.

This works quite well, but not perfected yet. :(

Ghislain

III
02-20-2014, 05:39 PM
III,

What makes you "unique, from a long line of nobodies" ?

Care to elaborate, please?

I'll do my best. The setup was too good to turn down for a chance to insert some possibly meaningful humor. The rest is quite coincidental, such as it is.
There is more or less hear than mite meat the I. We are each and all unique and all from a typically long line of nobody special. And those people with such a messiah complex think they are very special. I had a friend that worked at the state mental hospital in the early 70s doing night admissions. He said almost everybody they brought in was “messed up” on religion or booze or both; lots of Christs and other “specials”.

What is "I"? or maybe, or maybe not, a more correct wording Who is "I"? Is "I" this consciousness appearing to live in the illusion of a meat puppet? Is it the meat puppet itself? This “I” doesn’t think it is the meat puppet.

This comes up at an interesting timing. Saturday evening my partner and I were joined in deep trance. She had the experience, in current time, of traveling to India as her current "self", as perhaps a recurrence event, having the reincarnated persona of a powerful Indian Yogini

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogini) Yogini is a term that finds reference in several texts related to Hinduism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism) and Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism) where its literal meaning is "shaman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaman)" or wisdom seer (rishi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishi)), a definition that could just as easily be interpreted as “alchemist.” Some of the greatest of the ancient rishis were in fact women.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogini#cite_note-4) A female rishi is known as a rishika

emerging, with the help of her followers recognizing, proclaiming and accepting her as the Vajrayogini (my interpretation), and take over her life, completely submerging her present persona identity. She literally disappeared from her American persona/life, not returning from the trip, declared dead some years later, and gone from the USA for perhaps 20 years, by which time she was able to overcome the reincarnated persona, and re-emerge after remembering herself as an American woman, take back "her life" and return to the USA, with everything that makes up her current life, gone.

This was the recurrence she experienced, lived through. I experienced her “loading” this specific Yogini and her entire lineage, as I did, sort of as “libraries”. As far as I can tell we integrated these, alchemically speaking, as building blocks, as some of the pieces making up our “whole”. I see this as part of Tantra. It’s part of our experience, our Alchemy, our divine alchemical union. Call it what you like. It is of no importance or significance to anybody else.

What doesn’t happen is either of us running around proclaiming ourselves as some reincarnated Christ or Supreme master of the universe. We are practicing a Tantric Alchemy together. I’m not the wild character that some of the notable tantrics are.


We live a quiet, obscure life, you know “chop wood, carry water”. As it’s been put, neither of us is anybody specific. We, and everybody for that matter, is a fractal containing all possible personas made of fractals containing all possible personas ad infinitum. I’m obscure to most everybody, at least spiritually. I’m nobody and don’t have any great message for the world. Even seemingly straight line reincarnations were nobody special beyond their friends; a sheep herder, a priest or priestess of several long gone religions, soldier, butcher, baker and candlestick maker, a heretic, a person who died in WW2 like so many millions of others.

So why when some people get a whiff of knowledge from another life, or persona, or whatever their experience is interpreted as, do they think that they are the greatest thing since spam? Getting entrapped or enthralled by or greatly enamored of the persona of a dead person and having one’s life taken over doesn’t seem all that attractive to either of us. My partner has no desire to “become” that old lady, or proclaim her “wisdom” or whatever, no matter who or what she might have been in her own life, no matter that she had followers who thought she was a holy woman.


Maybe this is more an alchemical hazard than anything. Perhaps those not prepared are overwhelmed. Maybe the megalomaniacs are taken in by the illusions. Maybe they don’t have the strength of their own mind patterns to not be taken in by old “stored” patterns. In alchemy we are designing and making our own unique being, not making a carbon copy of something already done. Each path and each result is unique. Let the Dali Lama and a few others play it as identified reincarnations. Even those are unique each time. I doubt that most of the messiah syndrome folks are anything of the sort. I rather suspect that they are misinterpreting. This experience leaves lots of room for interpretation.

One advantage of doing a partnered Alchemy is that there are always two of us, each providing a check on the other. So in this instance, my partner had the experience and I had a different parallel experience. What does it mean? We don’t really know at this point. It is far from played out.

Awani
02-21-2014, 11:08 PM
ADEPT = AD PET

Self-promoting pet to ones own ego!

:cool:

Kiorionis
02-27-2014, 09:10 AM
At this point my question is, what do you do with these people?

The ones who have 'experienced' and are still coping with revelation. The ones who know that they know and will always know. The ones who won't change their minds even if you tell them the most profound truths. The ones who think they know where the conversation is going but dont follow it through, or dont try to grasp the concepts in another's perspective.

?

Is the only thing to be done is just let them be and wait till they get over their 'shell-shock'?

I personally see no other way.

Krisztian
02-27-2014, 03:19 PM
At this point my question is, what do you do with these people?

I counsel such people daily.

We should take a look at our judgments and biases, surrender to the reality that not all people meant to be helped. It's the ultimate 'surrender' of self.

Easier said than done however, no?


Is the only thing to be done is just let them be and wait till they get over their 'shell-shock'?

It is now widely accepted in Tx. and psychology that at the root of most, if not all, mental health issues is trauma. To heal, that requires long-term Tx.


I personally see no other way.

We are all gods. That's why no other can change any one else, only if allowed.