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Pleroma
02-21-2014, 10:46 PM
What is the secret fire? Is it the same as spiritus mundi? Is it the Alkahest that can putrefy gold and elevate it?
Or is it something different?

The secret fire...Anyone know?

Awani
02-21-2014, 11:19 PM
http://hermetic.com/stavish/essays/secret-fire.html

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/pontan_1.html

http://www.hermetics.org/secretfire1.html

There are plenty more out there, just type this in google: what is the secret fire in alchemy

:cool:

crestind
02-22-2014, 05:59 AM
Read the Reusenstein documents in RAMS. It outlines a brutally simple method to turn common salt (NaCl to dispel any doubt, it is not some silly metaphorical salt) into a menstruum which will act upon gold and give it some unique properties. It can be turned into a substance which melts in the heat of the midday sun. For me, this is the secret fire trapped in salt. Prime collection times are coming up soon, too. Get your glass panels, pyrex dishes, squeegees, dehumidifiers, Shamwows, sodium chloride, flasks, gold and kiln ready!

thoth
02-22-2014, 01:51 PM
You might want to look at Greek mythology and Janus.

As far as I understand, Fulcanelli also describes it in a way.

alfr
02-22-2014, 01:53 PM
Hi crestind thans but what it is the exact title of this file of Reusenstein in RAMS ?
you have made and try it process ? have you some result with this process of Reusenstein with salt ?

my best regards alfr

Hellin Hermetist
02-25-2014, 12:49 PM
Most of the alchemists, or alchemical schools, found pleasure to give fancy names to the chemical solvents which they used in their works. For example, the followers of Basil Valentine, called Aqua Regia made from niter and salmiac Water of the Two Combantants or Ignis Gehena. Other alchemists used to give the name of Ignis Gehena in other solvents, different than Aqua Regia. The word secret fire is mainly found in the writings of the followers of Artephius. If we follow the Hermetic Triumph, the secret fire must be corrosive sublimate or mercury chloride. Alkahest was a solvent mentioned by the followers of the Paracelsian school, which, according to their doctrine, was able to give to any natural body a diaphanous watery form. Much different than the secret fire or the alchemical mercury, if we believe the authors that spoke about it. The followers of Raymond Lulle spoke about four fires. Fire of nature, fire unnatural, fire contra nature and common fire.

JDP
02-25-2014, 03:17 PM
The word secret fire is mainly found in the writings of the followers of Artephius. If we follow the Hermetic Triumph, the secret fire must be corrosive sublimate or mercury chloride.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?


Alkahest was a solvent mentioned by the followers of the Paracelsian school, which, according to their doctrine, was able to give to any natural body a diaphanous watery form. Much different than the secret fire or the alchemical mercury, if we believe the authors that spoke about it.

Curiously enough, Paracelsus never used the word "alkahest" in that sense. In his writings it's just a medicine. It was Van Helmont who took this word and attached that claim of a "universal solvent" to it.

Hellin Hermetist
02-25-2014, 07:27 PM
How did you arrive at this conclusion?


I base my assumption in the clues he gives in his dialogue. These are:

i) "Consider that this Fire is of the Nature of Lime or Calx"

Quicklime is a white crystalline corrosive solid. Mercury chloride is also a white crystalline corrosive solid.

ii)Consider, in fine, also by what means Geber teaches to make the Sublimations require to this Art

If we sublime mercury with certain salts as teaches Geber, we can get corrosive sublimate as a product.

iii)for my part I can do no more, but make for you the same with that another Philosopher made, That the Stars of Venus and horned Diana may be propitious to you.

The cresent of Diana over the symbol of Venus gives the hieroglyph of mercury. As the author says that it is the only clue he can give, I guess he is a referring to a compound of common metallic mercury, and not to a secret mercurial substance, as then his clue will not be a clue at all.

JDP
02-25-2014, 10:37 PM
I base my assumption in the clues he gives in his dialogue. These are:

i) "Consider that this Fire is of the Nature of Lime or Calx"

Quicklime is a white crystalline corrosive solid. Mercury chloride is also a white crystalline corrosive solid.

ii)Consider, in fine, also by what means Geber teaches to make the Sublimations require to this Art

If we sublime mercury with certain salts as teaches Geber, we can get corrosive sublimate as a product.

iii)for my part I can do no more, but make for you the same with that another Philosopher made, That the Stars of Venus and horned Diana may be propitious to you.

The cresent of Diana over the symbol of Venus gives the hieroglyph of mercury. As the author says that it is the only clue he can give, I guess he is a referring to a compound of common metallic mercury, and not to a secret mercurial substance, as then his clue will not be a clue at all.

There's a lot of problems with these interpretations. For example, quicklime is quite different in its physical and chemical behavior from mercury sublimate. Unlike the mercury salt, quicklime is not "crystalline" but an insoluble amorphous white powder. It's also not volatile like the mercuric chloride, and its "corrosiveness" is of a different kind too (quicklime is alkaline, mercury sublimate is acidic.)

Hellin Hermetist
02-26-2014, 12:27 PM
Your points are valid, but if, on the other hand, the similarity with lime means that we need an alkaline substance, how can this agree with the second clue, which teaches that in order to produce this substance we need to make use of sublimation and not of calcination.

Andro
02-26-2014, 12:39 PM
The similarity with lime means that we need an alkaline substance, how can this agree with the second clue, which teaches that in order to produce this substance we need to make use of sublimation and not of calcination.

This is not a contradiction, in this approach the processes/'fires' are complementary.

Some parallels may be drawn from the way food is processed in the human digestive system.

I.M.S.U.

Andro
02-26-2014, 12:53 PM
Addendum:


This is not a contradiction, in this approach the processes/'fires' are complementary.

The first part of the 'Golden Chain of Homer' can be extremely helpful in further deciphering this apparent conundrum.

And regardless, I think this is a book worth reading many times over...

Hellin Hermetist
02-26-2014, 01:51 PM
This is not a contradiction, in this approach the processes/'fires' are complementary.

Some parallels may be drawn from the way food is processed in the human digestive system.

I.M.S.U.

Don't forget that in this point we are not referring to the second sublimation of the stone by means of the secret fire, which some authors also call a calcination, but to the preperation of the secret fire by chemical sublimation, always according to Limojon de St Didier. Also the author of Hermetic Triumph affirms most emphatically that the beginning of this path is a certain mineral substance, without the knowledge of which we can achieve nothing. So thats certainly one of the paths which you call particulars.

About the Golden Chain of Homer. Most of the experiments in this work are valid and well documented, but it is quite obvious that the process described in the Hermetic Triumph, has nothing to do with the ones described in the work of Kirchweger.

Andro
02-26-2014, 02:12 PM
Don't forget that in this point we are not referring to the second sublimation of the stone by means of the secret fire, which some authors also call a calcination, but to the preperation of the secret fire by chemical sublimation, always according to Limojon de St Didier. Also the author of Hermetic Triumph affirms most emphatically that the beginning of this path is a certain mineral substance, without the knowledge of which we can achieve nothing. So thats certainly one of the paths which you call particulars.

About the Golden Chain of Homer. Most of the experiments in this work are valid and well documented, but it is quite obvious that the process described in the Hermetic Triumph, has nothing to do with the ones described in the work of Kirchweger.

I tend to disagree. Some of the Principles/Mediums outlined in 'The Golden Chain' are very much in line with St. Didier (and Fulcanelli as well), and also with Cyliani, Artephius, etc...

This is (at least) a two-step process (first & second sublimation), and different 'fires' are required.

St. Didier is very vague in differentiating between them.

Kirchweger is much clearer (I'm not taking about the experiments with fractional distillation of liquids).

Also, this is not necessarily a 'particular' (although I'm not sure about the potency), because the sequence (aided by external agents) eventually leads to matter with 'philosophical' and 'universal' properties, that is, to the best of my knowledge, not chemically defined.

I'm not sure if you have performed (or seen) this sequence and/or worked with the involved auxiliary agents.

If you have, you may see how the above mentioned authors are actually in great agreement.

But, to each their own. I respect your point of view.

Also, it's been quite some time since my attention was focused on these processes, so I may be wrong in my interpretation of what you are actually referring to.

JDP
02-26-2014, 02:44 PM
Your points are valid, but if, on the other hand, the similarity with lime means that we need an alkaline substance, how can this agree with the second clue, which teaches that in order to produce this substance we need to make use of sublimation and not of calcination.

Sublimation can produce many different substances, not all of them necessarily acidic or saline in nature. Since the author refers to Geber and the sublimations he teaches, you will find that if you look at his works many kinds of sublimations are described, not just those that produce mercury sublimate. In fact, the Latin Geber very arbitrarily gives the name of "mercury" even to substances that can't possibly be mercury as we understand that word (look, for example, what he says about the "mortified mercury" extracted from marcasites by sublimation.) So the "clue" about what Geber says about sublimation is hardly much of a "clue" at all since that author shows many different products resulting from sublimation operations. It would have been quite a different situation if the author of the Hermetic Triumph had been more specific and given a precise reference to which one of the sublimations described by Geber he had in mind.

amoodikh
03-14-2014, 08:18 AM
Is Secret fire a salt that is in all matters that are not dead by fire? if so then to obtain it is simply by having the proper menstruum to extract it. In ancient type they used urine exalted by distillation (seven to ten times) as their menstruum.

pierre
06-18-2014, 05:04 PM
Is Secret fire a salt that is in all matters that are not dead by fire? if so then to obtain it is simply by having the proper menstruum to extract it. In ancient type they used urine exalted by distillation (seven to ten times) as their menstruum.

Hi...
What salt could resist the fire? Perhaps a carbonate? Could this kind of salt to be the foundation of mineral building? I ask myself, do not claim anything ...
Anyway, IMHO, the secret fire is the first solvent mercury from metallic kingdom...
Greetings to all.

Avatar
06-22-2014, 11:18 PM
Excuse my ignorance please.

Under correct conditions. UV radiations whitens.
In short.
The sun whitens.
Gross fire reddens.
in regards to plants.
Fire does not emit uv radiation.
I have also noticed, uv radiation is less effective on plant material when it is submerged in a liquid.
Also dry plant material is not optimally effected.

Yet plant material in between moist and dry " wet materially being dried". I have seen complete whitening of plant material in one day under optimal conditions.

So! This is simply an interesting phenomena.
Pure putrified organic material, then whiten with UV radiation. Then redden with fire.
Albiet! This is coming from an archaic observer.
I am no chemist my friends.
Thank you for hearing my words.
Be well.

Joshua
09-25-2014, 07:50 AM
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/12/kawah_ijen_by_night.html

crestind
10-23-2014, 05:47 AM
Seems to me it's some otherworldly force we use physical means to manifest. Manipulating the right chemicals, and electricity and magnetism too.

alfr
01-22-2015, 06:31 PM
Hello everyone
about spiritus mundi secret fire etc and the golden chain homero and von Bernus I consider interesting to report an analysis of a friend (that he is a very great and serious researcher and investigator alchemical and which has seen very valid teachers ) and that in a important forum French would say the move toward interesting research

quote :

bonjour
pour von bermus l'acide nitrique est le spiritus mundi, le dragon céleste. La fixation du dragon céleste grace son aimant qui est le vrai sel secret des philosophes qui est

est une pierre non pierre selon le cosmopolite et selon basil valentin et c'est notre azot . cette réunion donne selon von bermus le feu secret salin . La vérité joue à cache cache .

Quand on pense à l'AUREA CATENA qui désigne le nitre comme l'acier et le sel commun comme aimant .

HENRI

my best regard alfr