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Awani
03-31-2014, 09:39 PM
Spin-off from this thread: The Mystery is a Mistery: thoughts on psychedelics (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3968-The-Mystery-is-a-Mistery-thoughts-on-psychedelics)
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Note: I am not stating facts here really, only my personal opinion based on personal experience.

I hold the position that drumming, fasting, mutilating, sweating etc... are all rituals that used to be done WITH psychedelics, but has through time lost the key ingredient. In other words shamanistic practices that does not use psychedelics is only half the story.

I have partaken in psychedelic shamanism rituals both in Latin America and in Africa, and in these cases the shamans use drums, fasting, sweating... although I have not come across mutilation (unless you count making scars). These techniques are there to enhance the psychedelic part of the ritual.

I am sure the ritual can have some great effects without psychedelics, as much as I am sure rituals with only psychedelics and no other techniques can also yield results. In both cases the ritual/ceremony is crippled... either lacking psychedelics or lacking fasting/drumming etc.

IMO true shamanic practice is using psychedelic plants of some sort. There is proof of this all over the world. Shamanism is the first religion, as far as I can gather... or at least the most (to me) proper religion. Even the rituals of modern religions are derived from rituals that once used psychedelic potions.

A major aspect of shamanism is diets and plants. A true healer must know the forest/jungle. S/he must know which plants do what. Therefore it is not illogical to assume that they also use psychedelic plants, and we don't even need to assume it. It is a fact in all parts of the world where you find shamanism. A real shaman is an alchemist.

In some areas the psychedelic part has been completely taken out of the equation due to many different factors... and this is a great shame as it takes away the complete shamanic experience.

Shamanism without psychedelics is like a doctor without antibiotics.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/Screenshot2011-02-21at63255PM_zps38b794d9.png (http://www.alexandresegregio.art.br)

:cool:

MarkostheGnostic
03-31-2014, 10:01 PM
Shamanism without psychedelics is like a doctor without antibiotics.

:cool:

I agree entirely. Now, if I can only get some final assistance with formatting, so I can publish a finished book: Psychedelic Sainthood.

Awani
03-31-2014, 10:04 PM
I agree entirely.

In your case it is certainly preaching to the choir.

:cool:

Andro
03-31-2014, 10:28 PM
For general/complementary information, our brains are capable of producing/secreting very similar substances to the ones in psychedelic plants. DMT (such as in Aya) and many others. It just takes training to secrete them consciously. So basically I have no disagreement in principle, just that psychedelics can be 'harvested' in more than one way. Like that Sioux story - where was the greatest truth placed/hidden ? :)

Awani
03-31-2014, 10:32 PM
Certainly, I agree. I have not been able to achieve an altered state naturally that match the degree of altered states that for example ayahuasca induces. It would be silly for me to state that it is impossible as I have not been able to do it.

On the other hand how can a person know they have achieved an altered state of the degree that ayahuasca induce if they cannot compare it with for example taking ayahuasca.

It is a lot easier for a person that has achieved an altered states using non-psychedelic methods to drink ayahuasca and compare them, than for a person who has only used ayahuasca and not been able to have a natural altered state (which in my opinion is much more difficult). With psychedelics you cannot fail, but with sacred drumming you can.

Wink wink.

:cool:

Awani
03-31-2014, 10:36 PM
Like that Sioux story - where was the greatest truth placed/hidden ? :)

A Sioux Story (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3965-A-Sioux-Story)

Let's include everyone in our in-jokes. ;)

:cool:

Andro
03-31-2014, 10:42 PM
Certainly, I agree. I have not been able to achieve an altered state naturally that match the degree of altered states that for example ayahuasca induces. It would be silly for me to state that it is impossible as I have not been able to do it.

On the other hand how can a person know they have achieved an altered state of the degree that ayahuasca induce if they cannot compare it with for example taking ayahuasca. It is a lot easier for a person that has achieved an altered states using non-psychedelic methods to drink ayahuasca and compare them, than for a person who has only used ayahuasca and not been able to have a natural altered states (which in my opinion is much more difficult). With psychedelics you cannot fail, but with sacred drumming you can.

Wink wink.

Well, for me it was a bit different, since I started having such experiences spontaneously at a (relatively) young age, and they scared me to death.

I later learned to consciously control/trigger them better, but yes, I am not always successful. Many times I am not fully able to 'zone in'.

I have not used externals, but yes, I guess I could be in a potential position to compare. I'll do it, IF I ever feel the calling.

Wink Wink back :)

Awani
03-31-2014, 10:47 PM
As long as no door is closed I'm game.

As far as being scared to death, well that seems to be a common trait in both our cases. I am very nervous about doing it again that is for sure.

:cool:

MarkostheGnostic
04-01-2014, 12:44 AM
As long as no door is closed I'm game.

As far as being scared to death, well that seems to be a common trait in both our cases. I am very nervous about doing it again that is for sure.

:cool:

With absolutely NO disrespect to any ayahuasceros I can speak only of the mushrooms. I once received an embrace by the late ayahuascero, Pablo Amaringo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Amaringo Pablo was introduced to me by Edwardo Luna, translating, at Miami-Dade College. Pablo asked me, a psychotherapist who had brought primitive art of my own to share with the artist, whether I thought that he was "loco." "Oh no," I exclaimed, "Quite the contrary," which was translated back to him, and he gave me a warm hug.

I have a friend who has taken Yajé several times in Miami with a visiting shaman. Sometimes, he just became violently ill, other times, he had the Experience. On mushrooms with me, he did not become ill. Nobody does in my experience with dried fruit. Queasiness does occur with fresh fruit. But, as I set out to say, my days of cathartic vomiting on Morning Glory seeds are long past. Nowadays, a powerful mushroom trip can accomplish a psychospiritual or psychocosmic function without the gut-wrenching and physically dangerous vomiting process. It is, nevertheless, Earth-shaking at times. This is one of the simple drawings I shared with Pablo (a bit embarrassing. My artistic skill level is about age 11. nevertheless...), 'Mark[os] on Mushrooms' :) -

http://i58.tinypic.com/oayu8o.jpg

DonSweet
04-01-2014, 04:35 AM
Chiming in on the non-psychedelic aspect in regard to North American Indians ... which is actually their preferred nomenclature these days. They've recognized that anyone born in America/North America can be called a Native. Canadians prefer First Nations People.

A correction for Dev ...

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but I'm quite familiar with several American Indian cultures, some more than others, obviously. Although there are ceremonies where substances are used, such as peyote and even being bitten by a rattle snake, these are very unusual, special and rare, and often take years to prepare for. So no, mind-altering substances were not (and are not) commonly employed in ceremony, even going back pre-Columbian.

Let me just get this out of the way while I'm on the subject.

Columbus was a greedy, psychopathic, lying, genocidal prick and never even set foot on North America ... and fuck the Queen who financed him -- and all like her -- and the other murderous bastards that raped, robbed and murdered across the Americas.

There ... that out of the way ...

The "Sacred Pipe" (or Peace Pipe as uneducated idiots call it) is never and never has been used to smoke anything even close to psychedelics.

Use of The Sacred Pipe itself is a sacred act, not what is in it. For millennia, only "tobacco" has been used. "Tobacco" can consist of inner bark of certain trees and mild herbs, but nothing mind altering. Never has, and if you come across anyone that's using anything besides these traditional Tobaccos, they are charlatans and not traditional. Pipe contents vary from group to group and holy man/woman to holy man/woman, but nothing is ever "mind altering" about the contents.

Smoking The Sacred Pipe is a selfless, humble offering of one's inner self to the Universe and the spiritual entities that inhabit it. It is a gesture, a prayer ... virtually nothing more. You are inhaling these burning herbs, blessed and prepared spiritually, into your body, allowing your thoughts to mingle with it, then exhaling those thoughts out into the Universe. Through this act, the Universe "hears" your thoughts, wishes and prayers. There are no lies through The Pipe and one must be careful what one prays for.

It is literally sacrilege to suggest that one is "getting high" from The Sacred Pipe. The Pipe is a symbol of all that is sacred to American Indians, all the ceremonies, all the principles, all the philosophy. One could say that is the culmination of every Sacred Fire. It contains all knowledge and is a literal gateway to that knowledge. All in Indian culture centers on The Pipe. It is a pathetic comparison, since The Pipe represents the Knowledge, Power and Gateway of the Universe, but you could say it's the Indian Bible.

You do not "get there" by means of any substance in The Pipe, but by coming to understand The Pipe to the best of your ability as a humble Human Being.

For those that have taken the journey -- and there are few -- The Pipe is the Stone.

I can only say that I have taken a few steps on that Path ... twenty-seven years after beginning my walk on it. I know some that are in their third phase of four blocks of sixteen years on that path. Compared to them, I am a mere child.

But ... point being ... in North America, anyway ... mind-altering substances are rare, very special, and take tremendous time and training to participate.

Try fasting for four days ... no food at all ... and sweat lodge at dawn, midday and sunset, taking only water in lodge ... and see what "visions" you might acquire along that experience. This is either Spring or Fall solstice fasting.

The same thing can be done at anytime of the year individually ... where you fast utterly alone, save an occasional visit by your medicine person ... or try fasting for up to seven days, water only and only given by your medicine person, while you sit in a hole in the ground on a hill crying to "the spirits" for a vision or to give thanks for some benefit you've received in your life. These examples are the Vision Quest, or "Hanblecha" in Lakota (Sioux).

Try fasting for four days, with your upper chest (men) pierced in two places with bone so that you can wake at dawn, sweat, then attach yourself to The Sacred Tree of Life by rope (a white birch) and dance in a circle around it from sunrise to sunset (in summer), to sweat again before sleep, without food -- some choose without water -- for all four days pulling back on that rope until it pulls the bones from your chest on the last hour of the last day. Women do all that without piercing. They are already "connected" to The Sacred Tree by way of their ability to give birth and nurture.

Tell me you need psychedelics to acquire visions and Universal perspective doing these things.

I think not.

Or ... merely ... sit for anywhere from one to four hours, taking only three brief breaks ... having fasted for at least a day before hand ... drinking only water when given (or requested) ... in heat so intense it could cook a chicken, turkey or pot roast ... from stones sometimes as large as a football, glowing red and sometimes orange as water is poured over them ... while you look deep inside yourself, singing, praying, giving thanks and asking all those non-physical forces in The Universe to help you on your path. I do this as many as a dozen times a year or more. I consider it "home." I can't do it often enough.

I hardly think psychedelics are necessary under those circumstances ... and would frankly be ill-advised.

Reading back, I sound a little terse. I don't mean to be. These things are near-and-dear to me, as are the People who brought these traditions to me. Theirs was a Great Suffering that brought them down through the generations for my benefit. The United States government outlawed these ceremonies (for a hundred years) until 1978, hunting down practitioners and jailing them, sometimes for decades ...

... for sweating in a hut.

It's hard not to be at least a little terse.

What you think you know about Native culture couldn't possibly be correct (in every sense). What you have been told in history books, the media and popular culture is everything from outright lies to intentional distortion bent on demonizing ... and that's completely discounting outright ignorant bigoted stupidity ...

... none of which I'm suggesting you're practicing here.

I simply can't know about psychedelics?

You simply can't know about Indians, simply because the information isn't out there. It's in the hearts and minds of The People, not in books, not in movies and most certainly not in the history you've been told. It's in their ceremonies, traditions and their [resurging] cultures.

"White people" ... the wasichu ... can't and won't know until they ask, learn and explore ... as I have ... and I'm only at a child's level after twenty-seven years.

All said in Love.

Awani
04-06-2014, 08:42 PM
Although there are ceremonies where substances are used, such as peyote and even being bitten by a rattle snake, these are very unusual, special and rare, and often take years to prepare for. So no, mind-altering substances were not (and are not) commonly employed in ceremony, even going back pre-Columbian.

Well I think the reason for this is the same why in Europe witches went underground, and the reason why so many shamanic traditions world-wide don't use psychedelics anymore... fear of attack by their white landlords.

Native American normally use mescaline-containing cacti (most notably peyote, San Pedro, and Peruvian torch).

Below is one example:


Native American Church (NAC).

Peyote was declared illegal by the Spanish Inquisition in 1620. Spanish priests burned Aztec herbalists at the stake, and the Inquisition prosecuted peyote possession as far north as Santa Fe and as far west as Manila. Later, the U.S. government continued this campaign under the guise of trying to stamp out a "dangerous narcotic."

In 1906, local organizations arose in Oklahoma to oppose anti-peyote legislation. The first peyote church was incorporated as a legal defense in 1914. Current federal law requires NAC members to have at least 25% American Indian ancestry, although some chapters have Caucasian members. Most state laws also limit membership to Native Americans, though some states prohibit peyotism altogether, and a few states allow peyote to be used for bonafide religious purposes regardless of race.

There are about 60 chapters of Native American peyote churches with various names. The national NAC leadership is dominated by Navahos, so chapters run by other tribes sometimes do not acknowledge any affiliation beyond the local level. The NAC has long been criticized for consuming peyote that is over-harvested from its natural habitat in Texas. Although a few NAC groups quietly operate small cultivation projects, there has been a consistent failure to promote widespread cultivation using the highly productive method of grafting onto faster-growing columnar cacti. Apparently, some Navahos once tried to graft peyote. Because they did not understand that it is necessary to wait five years for the grafted buttons to develop a high alkaloid content, they incorrectly concluded that grafting produces peyote of low potency. - source (http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v12n1/12117stu.html)

I think the tradition of psychedelic use by shamans have been mostly forgotten in the US and in Siberia... whereas in many other places of the world they have remained intact. The reason for this is because the Amazon and Central Africa has not been westernized.

For example:


The growth of Roman Christianity also saw the end of the two-thousand-year-old tradition of the Eleusinian Mysteries (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1765-Eleusinian-Mysteries-amp-DMT), the initiation ceremony for the cult of Demeter and Persephone involving the use of a drug known as kykeon (the term 'ambrosia' is used in Greek mythology in a way that is remarkably similar to the soma of the Hindus as well). - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogen#Europe)

Yes, even our modern society stems from a psychedelic society... that is how we became so clever and managed to create such an advanced world... but once we left the psychedelic behind in our journey forward we lost an important scale of the ego... i.e. the modern disease of greed and confusion.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/fig_1_zpsa2c444f8.jpg

:cool:

DonSweet
04-07-2014, 04:24 AM
Dev ...

I'm hearing some "insistence" in your post, and I'm compelled to reply. I stand by my previous statements. Mind-altering substances are neither common nor were used commonly in the past. Healing herbs, yes, occasionally psychedelics, yes, but only in very special ceremony on very rare occasions for the purpose of seeking visions. Mind-altering substances simply aren't necessary in Native traditional ceremony.

I offer this in the best spirit, but your sources are merely books. My sources are the people that lived it.

Lo!
04-07-2014, 05:43 AM
Also, in the most kind spirit... If YOUR source are the people that lived it, if we're talking about the past... That's one generation of people tops.

MarkostheGnostic
04-07-2014, 06:21 AM
Dev ...

I'm hearing some "insistence" in your post, and I'm compelled to reply. I stand by my previous statements. Mind-altering substances are neither common nor were used commonly in the past. Healing herbs, yes, occasionally psychedelics, yes, but only in very special ceremony on very rare occasions for the purpose of seeking visions. Mind-altering substances simply aren't necessary in Native traditional ceremony.

I offer this in the best spirit, but your sources are merely books. My sources are the people that lived it.

There IS a Native American Church throughout the USA and Canada, and the various branches, whether Christian or not, do rely on Peyote, not in a shamanic sense but in a sacramental sense. This includes the Huichols, for example, who are typically not a Christianized form of Peyotism. The pilgrimage to Wirikuta defines the Huichol culture, and it is a tradition that is essentially based on this sacred cactus. It may be a relatively rare event to actually imbibe the plant, but the entire culture is based on the visionary and revelatory state which informs the culture.

The Meso-American culture of sacred mushrooms discovered by Gordon Wasson and published in the May 13, 1957 Life Magazine (the date at the bottom of the article says June 10, 1957, but this is an error. I own a copy) describes more of a shamanic, divinatory culture. http://www.imaginaria.org/wasson/life.htm The religion of the indigenous people whom Wasson visited was Catholic. Nevertheless, the shamanic culture of the curendaras was also defined by the use of Psilocybe mushroom species, and their use was as frequent as the rainy season permitted. Eva Mendez (later give the name Maria Sabina to protect her privacy) was thrilled when Timothy Leary presented her with Sandoz® Psilocybin because with the pills, she was able to help people at any time of the year (obviously, she did not have the wherewithal to grow her own).

Not only did the 1000 years of the Eleusinian Mystery Rites in Greece rely on an entheogen, the 'Kykeon,' which may have been based on a less dangerous ergot (Claviceps paspali) rather than the famous Clavicep purpurea which caused outbreaks of Saint Anthony's Fire (ergotism), and which was the precursor for LSD-25, but a more recent use of entheogenic mushrooms was discovered in the mosaics of a Catholic basilica, wherein snails were fed Amanita muscaria mushrooms to detoxify them, and then the snails were consumed, all in connection to Christian liturgical rites. http://distelrath.tripod.com/fabbro.htm

Entheogens are being discovered to be much more prevalent in history than many people would like to admit. The ancient Rig Vedas sings hyms to Soma, the Avestan prayers to Haoma (an Indo-Iranian cognate of Soma) are equally ancient, and Andrija Puharic first learned to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphics in order to make his thesis for the use of mushrooms (ostensibly A. muscaria) in ancient Egypt. Gordon Wasson believed that this was the Soma of the Vedas (I think it was cow-dung loving Psilocybes, which imparted their sacrality to cow dung and to the cows themselves), and of course our contemporary Clark Heinrich (a FB friend) sees A. muscaria in practically all Medieval and Renaissance art by masters such as DaVinci.

The bottom line: Entheogens (hallucinogen is a medical and pejorative term) not only inform Native American cultures (and not by Indians being "stoned on hallucinogens"), but they are ubiquitous in human history. Incredulity about significant use in any given culture with which one is enamored is a typical response, and a projection of negative values from those who have never "been experienced." Tim Leary was correct when he jibed that psychedelics create the most paranoia among those who have never tried them.

Awani
04-07-2014, 10:28 AM
My sources are the people that lived it.

Actually my source was MAPS, which is the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies.

And just like Lo! said, the people alive today are not a good source as the practice has been taken out hundreds of years ago in conjunction with the white man take-over.

This is my theory anyway, and it has some factual foundation. But we can never be sure... although I would be surprised if the indigenous of the USA is different than all other indigenous people in the whole world.

:cool:

Ghislain
04-07-2014, 11:29 AM
We use rocket propulsion to get into outer space, we use the wheel to travel on the ground powered by many different sources...there are many means to similar ends, but each may be preferable under certain circumstances; I wouldn't want to cycle to the moon.

Depriving the body of sleep can produce altered states...that's one way of doing it, but not my preferred way.

Dancing and chanting can produce altered states, again not my preferred way of achieving this.

There are many ways to skin a cat and to suggest that only one way is valid is possibly the result of a closed mind.

I was in Peru with a Shapibo Maestros who was walking us through the jungle pointing out many of the medicinal plants and their uses. I asked him how this knowledge was passed down and his answer surprised me; he said that an initiate shaman/maestros would diet the tree. I had no idea what this meant and so asked for him to explain this...

I cannot remember the name of the particular tree, but I will ask again as I am returning there this year...

An initiate shaman would go out into a secluded spot in the forest and here s/he would live without any contact with anyone other than their maestros/teacher/master, who would visit them periodically. They were not to make eye contact with anyone during this procedure and would live on a diet of a little rice and a tea made from the bark of the aforementioned tree. This procedure takes in excess of a year to perform and if done correctly the spirit of the tree endows the participant with the knowledge of all the medicinal plants of the forest... One of those plants was the Ayahuasca Vine and the other Chacruna.

Neither of those two plants alone can bring on an altered state of consciousness, but together they can take you to another realm where many of your questions can be answered. It would be impossible to tell anyone what this experience is like, one has to experience it for oneself.

This is my preferred method of reaching this state, but if deprivation is a person's poison then amen; that is another way to skin this cat.

Ghislain

DonSweet
04-07-2014, 02:58 PM
Ack ...

"One generation tops."

No.

Sorry.

A culture that relies on written records is not going to be oriented to the impact or validity (there would be none) of oral tradition. It's almost a waste of my time to continue this discussion with that lack. Neither would "genetic memory" have validity ...

... although ...

Even Western science is slowly catching up ...

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-25156510

The most critical aspect of understanding what I've been saying, and again, not my words, concepts or ideas, but theirs, is the very rudiments of ceremony do not require -- and in fact contraindicate -- the use of mind-altering substances. "Contraindicate" meaning their use would be unhealthy and in fact dangerous. The vast majority of American Indian ceremony is intended to purge foreign, impure, unnatural or unbalancing substances (as well as non-physical unbalances) from your system.

We've obviously reached the point where we could argue the point until we were both blue-in-the-face, each contradicting the other, each insisting the other was correct, each citing the errs of the other's sources and foundation.

This is where I go silent on the matter.

All I can suggest now that we've reached this point is for you to ask them ... sit with them ... consult their own history as they understand it. But I'd highly recommend against relying on any written material that's either founded on a Western Cultural Perspective, or an American Indian Perspective that has been infected by Western Views.

Until you reach that point, I can no longer discuss the matter. Sorry, but it won't be possible to convince me that Indians stumbled around this continent for centuries stoned on hallucinogens. That ain't gonna happen.

Nice chatting.

Awani
04-07-2014, 03:20 PM
"Contraindicate" meaning their use would be unhealthy and in fact dangerous. The vast majority of American Indian ceremony is intended to purge foreign, impure, unnatural or unbalancing substances (as well as non-physical unbalances) from your system.

Shamans/medicine men all over the world use psychedelics in order to purge and purify the body.


Sorry, but it won't be possible to convince me that Indians stumbled around this continent for centuries stoned on hallucinogens.

Psychedelics were used in a sacred way, so no stumbling around stoned at all. In some tribes/cultures it was ONLY the shaman who took the psychedelics, in other ones it was taken by all, or just the ill.

Like in Rome they have a ritual where they eat the body of Christ and drink the blood of Christ, which is possibly a ritual from days of old when you ate the flesh and drank then blood of a person you hailed/treated as a god in order to achieve godly powers. But the ritual has been diluted over time.

My only point is that a ritual of dancing, drumming used to (not always) have psychedelics as part of it in order to enhance the experience. Over time the psychedelics got banned/forgotten etc, and all we are left with is dancing and drumming.

I am sure some shamans did OBE to find out about other tribes, the weather, game and what plants could heal... but many used psychedelics to do the same things. And in fact it is more logical to think they used psychedelics as it requires nothing... OBE requires skill (unless you are naturally capable, which is not a common trait). Anyone can do psychedelics... then it is just a matter of having the will to navigate.

I have decided to use the word psychedelics, but really in this debate the more proper word would be entheogens... but that implies a 'god' of some sort, that is why I personally prefer the word psychedelics.

The word hallucinogens I don't like at all, as it implies the experience to be an hallucination. Anyone who has had a deep psychedelic experience knows that to call it hallucinating is ridiculous.

:cool:

MarkostheGnostic
04-07-2014, 05:40 PM
The word hallucinogens I don't like at all, as it implies the experience to be an hallucination. Anyone who has had a deep psychedelic experience knows that to call it hallucinating is ridiculous.

:cool:

Hence, my comment on "hallucinogen."

Andro
09-01-2014, 10:39 PM
The word hallucinogens I don't like at all, as it implies the experience to be an hallucination.
Anyone who has had a deep psychedelic experience knows that to call it hallucinating is ridiculous.

Considering that everything is hallucination, maybe we should reconsider the above :)

IMU, perception IS reality, no matter at what level/degree it is being hallucinated...

But some realities/hallucinations are 'higher' than others :)

Some of us have discussed this topic quite intensively, in Amsterdam and afterwards...

For an even more elaborate perspective on this topic, also see this Blog Entry by Salazius: Alchemy and Psychedelics (http://dartigne.blogspot.de/2014/07/alchemy-and-psychedelics.html)

Salazius
09-02-2014, 10:44 AM
I read both books of Harner recently. He was very much for plants at first, and then, now, he isn't. he saw that Inuit Shamans and Siberian one were not taking at all plants, even traditionnaly. For Inuits, they had to make they Vision Quest in Igloos with intense suffering (cold, etc). And it worked. Difficult to find a psylo in dung on the ice and in the snow. They had to adapt.

But it is true that you canno't at first, have deep experiences without plants. Or, if you are very gifted, you can go in transes etc.

Rattling, dancing and drumming, plus senses deprivations, suffering of several conditions, etc can work very well for some practices. As it was discussed here.

So I'm of both opinions. It plays an important part IMO, but an external substance is just an eye opener in order for you, after, to reach the same place and effects ("so called, process of "Activation") WITHOUT the plant.

Yes, I can get drunk without alcohol. Yes, I can get cold in total heat of a nice summer day. Yes I can get hot in a winter freezing day (still learning to control this one).

I learned several "tricks" to activate these feelings/experiences, and now I can travel the worlds in spirit without having to drum, etc. The same thing is done for enlightenment. Once you reached the place once, you know how it feels like, how to get there. Then, just try again until you make of it a "normalized" experience.

All this IMVeryHO.

bleeding yolk
09-02-2014, 04:07 PM
........shamanism......with and without "psychedelics" is a rich mine to delve into.........of course , drumming , fasting , chanting , dancing can all get you there......but there is nothing like having your reality absolutely obliterated by a substance...:)...that being said....once you have the experience of a deeper reality ...it is wise to proceed from there carefully and methodically....perhaps using substances periodically or even ritually .....but with great care........becoming habituated is not the point..........


.....the aspect of shamanism which is usually de-emphasised to its peril........is the self discipline and hardship which must be experienced in order to cultivate the proper attitude towards this path......the warrior battles self indulgence.....:o

....

bleeding yolk
09-02-2014, 04:25 PM
.....and every climate , (with the exception of the extreme arctic , which utilized the barren landscape and lack of sunlight) had several mind altering substances.......