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Leon Corlew
04-02-2014, 04:45 PM
Hey all, not sure if I mentioned it in my intro but I've been skirting the concept of Theurgy for some time now (a few years), and I have an issue, I seem to be very adept at finsing information on the subject but next to useless at determining the order in which various practices should be performed and how they relate to one another. If anyone has some wisdom as to the overarching structure containing Kabbalah/Qabala, Enochian magic, Tarot, Goetia, astral projection, other forms of ritual magic, or other related topics are are willing to share it would be much appreciated. Alternately if anyone could point me to some reliable low-level sources that would be great too.

I'm especially interested in being able to follow the practices put down in this text (http://hermetic.com/stavish/essays/secret-fire.html), which lists as its prerequisites, "at le[a]st one to two years of practical, daily experience with the Middle Pillar and/or Pentagram Rituals; in addition, an equal amount of time with the Hexagram Rituals. Several workings of the 32nd through 24th Paths on the Tree of Life would also be desirable[1], and regular practice of once a week or so of “Rising on the Planes”[2]." So if anyone has any info on those specific practices that would also be helpful.

Tangent: I understand that as a user of this forum thus far I ask for much and promise little in return and I regret this. I feel I have nothing or little to offer and come here as one who has too much information and too little knowlage. That being said, if anyone feels I can help them in any way please feel free to ask.

Awani
04-02-2014, 05:18 PM
Hmm well... it really depends on what your purpose is. You want to invoke a god or achieve a state of nirvana? I am aware that both these can be the same thing, but there are a lot of occultists that focus on the material manifestation of some sort of God. This is, IMO, a pointless endeavor. But to perfect ones own being is not.

Perfecting oneself is what alchemy is about, so really not sure why we need this Theurgy word?

Not sure if this is helpful, but you might enjoy it regardless: http://abrahadabra.com/2014/02/25/kundalini-yoga-is-overrated/

Good luck!

Postscript: the only true theurgy I've ever encountered/experienced was ingesting ayahuasca.

:cool:

Awani
04-02-2014, 05:25 PM
Did a quick search on secret fire and came up with these (although not sure the these threads contain anything that is helpful):


The Secret Fire of the Philosophers (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?356-The-Secret-Fire-of-the-Philosophers)

Thoughts on Fulcanelli's secret fire'? (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?787-Thoughts-on-Fulcanelli-s-secret-fire)

Philosophical Magnets for Capturing the Secret Fire (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?42-Philosophical-Magnets-for-Capturing-the-Secret-Fire)

What is the secret fire? (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3929-What-is-the-secret-fire)


:cool:

Leon Corlew
04-02-2014, 07:31 PM
Hmm well... it really depends on what your purpose is. You want to invoke a god or achieve a state of nirvana?

To achieve a state of nirvana I suppose. But also to attempt to recieve visons/revelations. I figure the greatest source, as far as reliability goes, is the Source itself. If it is possible to tap directly into that to gain clarity and knowlage I want to find a way.


Perfecting oneself is what alchemy is about, so really not sure why we need this Theurgy word?

As I understand it there are three semi-distinct hermetic arts, astrology, alchemy, and theurgy, each is independent but interelated, one must master all to master any.


Not sure if this is helpful, but you might enjoy it regardless: http://abrahadabra.com/2014/02/25/kundalini-yoga-is-overrated/

Not sure if it's helpful either, but certainly interesting, I'll have to try it out, thank you!




Postscript: the only true theurgy I've ever encountered/experienced was ingesting ayahuasca.

I hope to do this as well some day, for now I only have access to shrooms and LSD.


Did a quick search on secret fire and came up with these (although not sure the these threads contain anything that is helpful):

I'll read through but I have a feeling that there are many conceptions of what this secret fire is, and none may be clear.

Krisztian
04-02-2014, 08:48 PM
. . . I'm especially interested in being able to follow the practices put down in this text (http://hermetic.com/stavish/essays/secret-fire.html), which lists as its prerequisites, "at le[a]st one to two years of practical, daily experience with the Middle Pillar and/or Pentagram Rituals; in addition, an equal amount of time with the Hexagram Rituals. . .

Why don't you contact Mark and ask about tutorship and guidance. He lives on East Coast as well, in Pennsylvania. He might still take on students. Go to the source.

He's the best of the best when it comes to that area of Hermetica.


I understand that as a user of this forum thus far I ask for much and promise little in return and I regret this. I feel I have nothing or little to offer and come here as one who has too much information and too little knowlage. . .

In the worse case, others will learn from your questioning and exploration.

Love your humble approach!

MarkostheGnostic
04-02-2014, 09:48 PM
I thought that I would point out a basic difference in magick, namely, theurgy vs. thaumaturgy, even though you specifically named theurgy. So, I've included the following. The second link points out a connection to "friendly spirits and gods," with regard to theurgy, but the third link illustrates an example of thaumaturgy, though from the 2nd link, one might think it was theurgy. Sometimes this dichotomy is made between High Magick vs. Low Magick, or Magick vs. Sorcery, or again White magic vs. Black Magick. I also see the dichotomy of Tanscendental Magick vs. Goetic Magick. Truly, Magick is a 'Gray' area, and the boundary seems to be whether the intention is for transcendence of the ego vs. aggrandizement of the ego.

http://starweaverwitch.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/theurgy-and-thaumaturgy/

http://wizardforums.com/showthread.php?tid=6708

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvbWNJbMD-w

Awani
04-03-2014, 12:41 AM
I'll read through but I have a feeling that there are many conceptions of what this secret fire is, and none may be clear.

Well sometimes it is best to figure shit out yourself. The best way to learn. Other people will only give you their perspective, in the end it is only YOUR perspective that matters.

:cool:

boever
04-03-2014, 06:42 AM
So if anyone has any info on those specific practices that would also be helpful.

I suggest you start with "Kabbalistic Handbook For The Practicing Magician: A Course in the Theory and Practice of Western Magic" by Joseph C. Lisiewski.

You will find a detailed description of the rituals in "The Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic" by Israel Regardie.

Good luck

thoth
04-03-2014, 09:57 PM
You might also like "The Magician: his training and work" by WE Butler. It also has a great bibliography

Kiorionis
04-17-2014, 02:33 PM
To achieve a state of nirvana I suppose. But also to attempt to recieve visons/revelations. I figure the greatest source, as far as reliability goes, is the Source itself. If it is possible to tap directly into that to gain clarity and knowlage I want to find a way.

You should start a dream journal :)
Or practice techniques to stimulate lucid dreaming. It was for me the fastest way to connect to the 'Source'. All be it did take awhile.

kerkring
04-25-2014, 01:00 PM
An excellent book is 'The Natural Bliss of Being' by Jackson Peterson. The author has studied with eastern masters and sufis but also mentions that there are similar practices that are done in orthodox christianity to attain the rainbow body. He gives clear instructions for energy based practices coupled with meditative and contemplation techniques in the book. He also has several facebook groups where he teaches students e.g. dzogchen discussion, dzogchen trekchod, transparent being and some more. On youtube there are also several videos from a recent teaching retreat on his channel.

Salazius
04-25-2014, 01:20 PM
You can also work with the Franz Bardon's books. Rawn Clark commentaries too on FBardon books.

You can read "Modern Magick" of the late Michael Kraig.

All the Denning & Phillips books on Aurum Solis are also excellent.

Andro
04-25-2014, 05:59 PM
An excellent book is 'The Natural Bliss of Being' by Jackson Peterson. The author has studied with eastern masters and sufis but also mentions that there are similar practices that are done in orthodox christianity to attain the rainbow body. He gives clear instructions for energy based practices coupled with meditative and contemplation techniques in the book. He also has several facebook groups where he teaches students e.g. dzogchen discussion, dzogchen trekchod, transparent being and some more. On youtube there are also several videos from a recent teaching retreat on his channel.

Thanks!

I watched the videos and I am familiar with the presented concepts & some of the practices, but I feel the videos are barely scratching the surface...

I am quite interested in this. If you are practicing - do you feel that his materials have benefited you significantly, in terms of noticeable effects? (physical, mental, etc...)

I also find some similarities with what I posted in the 'Origin' series I recently started on the Spiritus Mundi thread, like HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2071-Spiritus-Mundi&p=34574#post34574) and HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2071-Spiritus-Mundi&p=34585#post34585).

An emphasis on attempted 'Being' and Primordial 'Emptiness' seems to be a common trait in many traditions.

kerkring
04-26-2014, 07:25 AM
I had already used another energybased system before I discovered his material. But i have used some of the other methods such as gazing at the sky or empty space but i have not been doing these for very long so far, although the other energybased stuff and other kinds of meditation have helped me significantly. What Peterson teaches is very similar to what other teachers who are the real deal teach, such as Namkhai Norbu and Tenzin Wangyal in their books such as 'The Crystal and the Way of Light' and 'Wonders of the Natural Mind'. That these paths work has been quite well established, e.g. many accounts of succesfull rainbow body attainments where the practitioner's body dissolves into light. In books by a respected spiritualist source, White Eagle, it is communicated that Jesus and his disciple John also had this kind of attainment (body of light) and the way their meditating is described also hints at the kind of dzogchen approach that Peterson and the tibetans I mentioned use. This was in the books 'Lightbringer' and then a book on the gospel of St John by White Eagle. Peterson also discusses the rainbow body at the end of his book and he also gives energybased practices to awaken the Kundalini which will make it a lot easier to access these states and awarenesses and which will also make them stronger.
So there is considerable hard evidence that these methods really work and that similar things were also used by more western masters like St John, contrary to some of the western books on magic about which we can' t be this certain.
Another, western theurgic school (thedivinescience) only recommends Bardon's book 'Initiation into Hermetics' for outsiders.
Peterson's book is on kindle too.

Andro
04-26-2014, 03:36 PM
Here's a video/'documentary', titled 'Magick of Solomon'.

It's a bit over-dramatic and a bit 'pop', but for someone with an interest (or just getting started), it conveys a few (IMO) significant principles, linking ceremonial magic to the internal mental nature of the Subjectively Knowable Creation, with a nice touch connecting Ancient Hermetic Psychology with its more recent (and more 'diluted') incarnations. Western ceremonial magic is not necessarily my thing, but I found this video and thought it may serve as a partial introduction to some of the principles involved. Anyone with actual experience in this area is most welcome to correct any errors in the information presented in the video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zwZ6TobhPA

Oh, BTW, if anyone has a particular interest in magical Black Mirrors/Speculums such as mentioned in the video, you can probably PM Salazius (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/member.php?7-Salazius) - he has good info, as he also makes them himself (http://salaziusstore.blogspot.fr/2012/09/black-mirrors-high-quality.html).

I'm also sure there are many other sources for 'artifacts' to be used in ceremonial magic, I just don't know any of them...


------------------------------------------------

MarkostheGnostic
01-05-2015, 12:47 AM
Even at this late date, I'd like to modify my position. I am reading a book about the late Neoplatonic philosopher Iamblichus, Living Theurgy: A Course in Iamblichus' Philosophy, Theology and Theurgy who held theurgy to be superior to contemplation, relegating contemplation to purification, a lesser process. I realize that I am more of a Neoplatonist after Plotinus (and apparently Proclus) than Iamblichsu, but I digress.

Theurgy differs from magick inasmuch as Divinity is relied upon using sanctified or symbolic ritual items, and perhaps words or hymns, but magick, Iamblichsu considers to be a primarily human "techne," and does not participate in the Divine. Of course, it is markedly different from thaumaturgy or sorcery, which seem to operate on entities below human spiritual development, and should not be trifled with.

My impromptu Alchemical Marriage ritual of 11/11/11 at 11:11:11 a.m. set was the only thing that was not impromptu - the date. And it took place before a statue (unconsecrated) of Thoth, 2 goblets of red and white wine, and the substances Sulphur, Salt and Mercury. Now, some 7 years before this date, when the statue arrived at my door, a Synchronicity occurred in that I saw for the first time in the 8 years I had lived here, 5 ibises sat in a tree above where the statue sat in a UPS parcel! On the morning of our wedding, 9 (an Ennead) ibises gathered outside our front door! It was the 2nd time that I had seen ibises on my property (which is not to say they'd never been there before, but 'I' was not there). To us, the Synchronicity was connected to all of the events including the alchemical motif. Our wedding vow was to take turns reading The Emerald Tablet!

Unlike magick, this ritual was not intended to effect activities on the physical plane, either to attract fortune, to prognosticate about the future, or divine the whereabouts of treasure, or any such earthly concern. It was intended to draw the both of us into a Marriage of Heaven & Earth, of Sun & Moon, manifested on Earth, that Body-Soul-Spirit Union (Salt-Sulphur-Mercury). It's symbols were alchemical, but its nature was Theurgical. Enough of human will was involved that the act could be said to be of High or Transcendental Magick, much like the rite of the Eucharist in high church traditions, but the emphasis was on Divinity rather than human machination, Iamblichus' "techne."

http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/MarkosthGnostic/EmeraldTabletVow.jpg (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/MarkosthGnostic/media/EmeraldTabletVow.jpg.html)

http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/MarkosthGnostic/11IbisesWaiting.jpg (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/MarkosthGnostic/media/11IbisesWaiting.jpg.html)

http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/MarkosthGnostic/AlchemicalMarriageCeremony.jpeg (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/MarkosthGnostic/media/AlchemicalMarriageCeremony.jpeg.html)

bleeding yolk
01-05-2015, 12:16 PM
Even at this late date, I'd like to modify my position. I am reading a book about the late Neoplatonic philosopher Iamblichus, Living Theurgy: A Course in Iamblichus' Philosophy, Theology and Theurgy who held theurgy to be superior to contemplation, relegating contemplation to purification, a lesser process. I realize that I am more of a Neoplatonist after Plotinus (and apparently Proclus) than Iamblichsu, but I digress.

Theurgy differs from magick inasmuch as Divinity is relied upon using sanctified or symbolic ritual items, and perhaps words or hymns, but magick, Iamblichsu considers to be a primarily human "techne," and does not participate in the Divine. Of course, it is markedly different from thaumaturgy or sorcery, which seem to operate on entities below human spiritual development, and should not be trifled with.

My impromptu Alchemical Marriage ritual of 11/11/11 at 11:11:11 a.m. set was the only thing that was not impromptu - the date. And it took place before a statue (unconsecrated) of Thoth, 2 goblets of red and white wine, and the substances Sulphur, Salt and Mercury. Now, some 7 years before this date, when the statue arrived at my door, a Synchronicity occurred in that I saw for the first time in the 8 years I had lived here, 5 ibises sat in a tree above where the statue sat in a UPS parcel! On the morning of our wedding, 9 (an Ennead) ibises gathered outside our front door! It was the 2nd time that I had seen ibises on my property (which is not to say they'd never been there before, but 'I' was not there). To us, the Synchronicity was connected to all of the events including the alchemical motif. Our wedding vow was to take turns reading The Emerald Tablet!

Unlike magick, this ritual was not intended to effect activities on the physical plane, either to attract fortune, to prognosticate about the future, or divine the whereabouts of treasure, or any such earthly concern. It was intended to draw the both of us into a Marriage of Heaven & Earth, of Sun & Moon, manifested on Earth, that Body-Soul-Spirit Union (Salt-Sulphur-Mercury). It's symbols were alchemical, but its nature was Theurgical. Enough of human will was involved that the act could be said to be of High or Transcendental Magick, much like the rite of the Eucharist in high church traditions, but the emphasis was on Divinity rather than human machination, Iamblichus' "techne."

http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/MarkosthGnostic/EmeraldTabletVow.jpg (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/MarkosthGnostic/media/EmeraldTabletVow.jpg.html)

http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/MarkosthGnostic/11IbisesWaiting.jpg (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/MarkosthGnostic/media/11IbisesWaiting.jpg.html)

http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa379/MarkosthGnostic/AlchemicalMarriageCeremony.jpeg (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/MarkosthGnostic/media/AlchemicalMarriageCeremony.jpeg.html)

hey markos ,

if you are a serious student of plotinus , then i would recommend reading plato and dispensing with "magick" and its related baggage

plotinus is about attaining union with the one true god and not gaining occult knowlege or powers

a quick primer on plotinus' philosophy which is very informative is PORPHRY'S LAUNCHING POINTS TO THE REALM OF MIND

Andro
01-05-2015, 12:48 PM
If you are a serious student of Plotinus, then i would recommend reading Plato and dispensing with "magick" and its related baggage.
Plotinus is about attaining union with the one true god and not gaining occult knowledge or powers.
A quick primer on Plotinus' philosophy which is very informative is PORPHRY'S LAUNCHING POINTS TO THE REALM OF MIND

Thanks for bringing it up!

This book has been on my to-get list for a while, and the 'Union' you mention is indeed IMO the 'worthiest goal', although 'goal' is still somewhat of a misnomer...

Quoth David Chaim Smith:


Even if salvation were possible, a true gnostic would have no need of it.



:cool:

bleeding yolk
01-05-2015, 01:39 PM
Thanks for bringing it up!

This book has been on my to-get list for a while, and the 'Union' you mention is indeed IMO the 'worthiest goal', although 'goal' is still somewhat of a misnomer...

Quoth David Chaim Smith:





:cool:

hey androgynicus ,

of course all of these terms are only approximations which often get confused in the course of things by virtue of the fact that a word can only give a rough description

subjective experience is indeed what is necessary

so in reference to 'union , goal , salvation , gnostic' etc . i can only try to use them in the sense in which they 're accepted in practice

ultimately THERE ARE NO WORDS


p.s. the book is very brief , yet dense , almost more of a pamphlet , highly recommended though

MarkostheGnostic
01-06-2015, 07:09 AM
As I endeavored to explain, theurgy is not magick, and when I assembled the ritual for our marriage, Union was the goal, not "powers" (siddhis). I received a tutorial in The Enneads and in comparison, The Mystical Theology of Dionysius the Areopagite (6th c.) by the recently deceased theologian, David G. Leahy (Novitas Mundi). That was 1975. I've learned to process all that in the time since then. I have read Prophyry's biography of Plotinus, but thanks for the recommendation.

As a matter of fact, I purchased The Collected Works of Plato a few years ago for retirement, and retirement has been upon me since June 2013. Still reading Sheldrake's Morphic Resonance, read JFK and the Unspeakable ('cause a friend insisted and loaned it to me), reading The New Primal Therapy by Janov, and have yet to open Dark Sun: The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb by Rhodes. Also, it seems that I've owned Neoplatonism by R.T. Wallis for years, and only began to read it, so here's another unread book saved for NOW.

Andro
01-06-2015, 09:28 AM
Plotinus is about attaining union with the one true god and not gaining occult knowlege or powers.
A quick primer on Plotinus' philosophy which is very informative is PORPHRY'S LAUNCHING POINTS TO THE REALM OF MIND

Also see THIS (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2434-A-Proper-Magnet&p=16887#post16887) (related).

bleeding yolk
01-07-2015, 11:29 AM
Also see THIS (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2434-A-Proper-Magnet&p=16887#post16887) (related).

quoting solomon levi from link
"What is a better symbol for the source - the eye that sees all but itself.

Why is it that the stone or Prima materia is everywhere and men do not see it,
just like the kingdom of Heaven?
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...thomas113.html

Is it not like nonduality? The Reality is everywhere present, but men do not see it."

excellent observation indeed:cool: