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Awani
12-23-2008, 09:14 PM
This is a Phoenix-thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=7) from the old site (http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/forum.htm).

What is Ningishzidda really? Not easy to answer, although it is deeply interesting - especially when looked at through the glasses of an Alchemist!

Ningishzidda, or Ng was the wife and mother of Dumuzi, and an ancestor of Gilgamesh. The whole family tree is very complicated with several names for each individual, which just adds to the confusion. To simplify Ng can be viewed as the serpent-god of Mesopotamia and also as the mother goddess/goddess of the earth/underworld. Ng could be viewed as an earlier version of Isis. Some say Ng i pure male, some both, some female... really it doesn't matter what gender...

Ng is represented as two serpents entwined around a rod... ah this rings a bell, and you are correct that the image of Ng does mirror that of The Caduceus of Hermes (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=17).

David William Hauck writes in his book The Emerald Tablet – Alchemy for Personal Transformation:

…traced as far back as 2600 B.C.E. The caduceus is depicted on the Libation Cup of Gudea [see below], a Sumerian artifact that was made around 2000 B.C.E., and Thoth is shown holding an early Egyptian caduceus in a mural at the Temple of Seti I that dates from 1300 B.C.E. The tall staff, the magic wand of Hermes, is topped by a winged solar disk with two serpents wrapped around a staff three times – a subtler reminder that the owner of the staff is the thrice greatest one. According to the immortal French alchemist Nicholas Flamel, the two serpents of the caduceus are the snakes or dragons which the ancient Egyptians painted in the form of a circle, each biting the other’s tail, in order to teach that they spring of and from One Thing.The famous Staff of Asclepius (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=18)with a single serpent wrapped around it is often confused with the The Caduceus of Hermes (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=17).

Add to the mix the fact that the image of two entwined serpents resemble the double-helix. Ng created the human race, after the world was flooded as told in the Epic of Gilgamesh (and later mirrored in Genesis). And DNA created us.

So, apart from being an earlier form of the twined serpents on the Caduceus, Ng can also be viewed - in alchemical terms - as the original Elixir of Life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elixir_of_life), or the Dew of the Ouroboros & Prima Materia (DNA)! Well, that is the theory anyway...

In alchemy dew is a symbolic representation of:
divine incarnation or manifestation from Above. Alchemists believed natural dew contained the divine Salt (thoughts of the One Mind) that could transform the Sulfur and Mercury of the First Matter. In many ways, dew represented the Elixir or contents of the cup of God, the Holy Grail. - from the Alchemy Electronic Dictionary (http://www.alchemylab.com/dictionary.htm)http://www.agdei.com/Caduceus.JPG
Relief impression of the royal libation cup of King Gudea of Lagash (Sumer), ca 2000 B.C.E.

Article on Ng (http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterThree/TowerOfBabel.htm)
Ningishzidda, The First Satan? (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=325) (great read)
Ningishzidda Rising (http://www.abrahadabra.com/ningishzida.rising.htm) (another great read)
Ningishzidda FAQ (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showpost.php?p=28651&postcount=1) (some more points that is in this post)
I've really been enjoying your input on Abrahadabra Deviadah. In case you didn't know I am really a big fan of this principle!

Funy to hear you refer to h im as a girl. I actually did some research on this and interviewed some college students on another board, they tell me that we know Ningishzidda is specifically male because he is listed as the SON of Enki, Ninazu otherwise it gets confusing because "Nin" means lady...

I had a personal joke about this that gishzidda probably means "killer"...

anyways it's a very deep mystery and I think the most intriguing part is the male-female ambiguity. We see this with several other deities around the world - Mahakala from tibet, for instance, is above time and a manifestation of the Absolute, his femininity is concealed and part of him, so he does not have a duality about him and is thus above time - even the gods feel change and death when he approaches. Also Inari from Japan is shown alternatively as an old man or a young woman, and is flanked by two white stone foxes in shrines to him/her.

So while it is a rare occurence it is not without it's own subtle consistency...

Mithraism for instance, engaged in the strange practice of marrying males to the sun as brides...so it gets a little weird in the higher stages of alchemy in all religions I think...

love it.

Did you see the people on Occult Forums accusing me of being a faggot? Gosh it's funny...I wonder if my alchemy is causing that effect....

In case you didn't know I am really a big fan of this principle! Duh...

He is also a wife...

I think it is natural, since I am a male I see Ng as female, and you do the opposite.

As if Ng completes the polarity/duality of ourselves (if you get what I mean)!

That is how I would answer this line of thought anyway!

I'll embarrass you by posting the wonderful drawing you did:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/delica10_800x600.jpg
ack...I was using that to test the gallery feature...LOL...it's one of a few preliminary test images I did to get a base to do the painting...

Here is the WIP:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/ningishzidda.jpg

I don't know what your image size limits are here, if so pleae advise, I have a widescreen monitor so I almost never notice if images are too large...

Very good points Deviadah, you've given me much to think about...

I don't know what your image size limits are here...I sent you a PM.

As for Ng there is indeed a lot to think about. I like to link Ng to Kundalini.

The serpent that attacked Buddha, for instance, is not a malevolent creature. Instead it's the cosmic energy that lies coiled up inside that Buddha gains control of. Kundalini, derived from a Sanskrit word meaning either coiled up, coiling like a snake or serpent power mirror this event.

The Caduceus of Hermes (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=17) is thought to be an ancient symbolic representation of Kundalini physiology.

You have the energy of the sun in you, but keep knotting it up at the base of your spine. - Rumi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalal_ad-Din_Muhammad_Rumi)
http://www.enkispeaks.com/images/NinmahEnkiThothAdam_Sitchin1990p162.gif (http://www.world-mysteries.com/pex_2.htm)
Ng, far left, dabbling with DNA.
Are you familiar with the concept of the descending serpent, and the patala chakra? It is not the same serpent as kundalini shakti. m1thr0s pointed this out to me.

"Additionally, seven chakras, barely visible, exist below the spine. They are seats of instinctive consciousness, the origin of jealousy, hatred, envy, guilt, sorrow, etc. They constitute the lower or hellish world, called Naraka or patala. Thus, there are 14 major chakras in all."

"7) patala chakra (located in the soles of the feet): murder and malice."

http://www.experiencefestival.com/patala_chakra

Macrocosmically, the chakras are entire realms of existence. Patala is the realm of Lord Ananta, the serpent that holds up the preserver, Vishnu, out of the ocean of sorrow, and upholds the entire universe on just one of his gleaming scales....
Thanks!

That is very interesting and I didn't know that.

I quoted what you wrote in this thread: Seven (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=6)

All these subjects interlink, but I am trying to keep them as seperate as possible to avoid confusion (both for myself and those that come here)!
I think it's a grand idea...

Do you have the exact inscription source where Ng is named as a wife...I can't seem to find any...
I really like that painting, Naomi, it's very evocative.
-Anibis

Do you have the exact inscription source where Ng is named as a wife...I can't seem to find any...

Here there is much similarity between the male:
Dungi-Dumuzi-Ninurta-Aannipadda
and the female:
Ninsum-Ningizzida-Gula-Ninmah-Ninkursag-Damkina-Ninka-Mesannipadda. - Article on Ng (http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterThree/TowerOfBabel.htm)
Not a direct inscription, but Ng figures with many names...
I'm going to check back with my scholarly Mesopotamian forum for a while and get to the bottom of this...I've learned not to trust internet sites with Mesopotamian information simply because I have discovered it is often based on outdated or fictional writings...

All of the books I have read at the library by archaeologist list Ningishzidda's wife as "Lady Productive Branch" or "Lady Productive Leaf" Ninazua

Dumuzi is mentioned as accompanying Ningishzidda in the Adapa myth and his wife is almost always named as Inanna.

This is too important to ignore though so I'm going to investigate for sure...so bbl

fun fact: Ningishzidda is connected with the city of Lagash, the patron deity there was Bau, the dog goddess her name means "woof" :P, she had seven daughters...


Anibis:

thanks, can't take all the credit though....m1 supplied much of the conceptual structure...
The Sumerian "nin" means, in general, "queen" and is a common first element in Sumerian divine names. However, as this example (and many others) show, the "nin" must also refer to the masculine. Nin-gišzida is the son of Nin-azu, and so decidedly male. (Indeed, Nin-azu is Nin-gišzida's father, while his wife (and so Nin-gišzida's mother) is Nin-girida!)

For all the details, you can check the entry in the RlA s.v.

[...]


And finally, I have no idea why it is that so many male deities begin NIN-. I just thumbed through the RlA looking through the hundred or so NIN- entries, but none offered any explanation. Alas.

- amarsin


Disclaimer: The opinion presented here is not in print, and not all scholars on the ANE would agree. Note here that this is the interpretation of me, blatantly influenced by stuff I heard from my Sumerian professor. The cuneiform sign with which NIN is written is the slightly simplified depictionof a female vulva on top of a ...thing.
If you look at the sign (a triangle with its point to the right and a line from the tip of the right-hand point to the middle of the vertical line that is to be considered the triangle's base at the left), and turn it around 90°clockwise, you'll be able to see it clearly. Just like thesign AD is the representation of the male genitalia (don'tforget the 90° clockwise turning), the sign NIN is the female representation.

The question why NIN is used for male deities likeNingirsu/Ninurta (essentially the same deity) or Ningishzidda is something that scholars don't really know an answer to.


Ningishzidda and Gizzida Names, November 13th 2007

Awani
01-02-2009, 01:22 AM
Good work!

See this is the kind of stuff that you should do more of.

The link doesn't work unless one is a registered member!

I imagine we look at Ng from different perspectives, and for me when I say female or male I'm really not thinking flesh and blood man and woman as I don't think Ng was neither. Just a personal opinion. Akhnaten, for instance, who was a great Pharao has been though to have been a woman disguised as a man.

Perhaps Ng was the name of the genetcis lab of the aliens that came here?

Who knows... but I really like your research and I will have to look into it some more.

Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCj7iSkAxco
I did that stuff months ago, nobody noticed on OF

The other "stuff" I do, in public, is actually my own research on social engineering. Most of my real research I do in private e-mail, some of it is way too delicate to b discussed in public, in front of prying eyes...they wouldn't take it seriously and they don't have the know how to provide further exploration into these subjects at all. (Not necessarily this forum at all - OF and various other forums I frequent but even on Abrahadabra barely anyone could follow me.

I know what I'm doing usually, it's just, I have agendas that run above the system and have accelerated priorities...

But back to Ningishzidda...the sculptural reliefs from Lagash (which I posted on abrahadabra) depict Ningishizidda as a bearded man. Lagash was where Ningishzidda was revered the highest, a community of artists and so on...

However, coming from a tantric background, I do agree with you completely, just as the supreme absolute is manifesting shakti, the feminine, as a secondary principle, or as mahakala, a male deity, is androgynous because his femininity is integrated, so I do realize Ng is an androgynous deity as well...my notes put him down not only in the DNA itself, but beyond that....rooted in the blackness between the strings themselves...

Therefore, not "centered" in the brain at all, like the Olympiads are...which makes him far more dangerous and formidable, and a threat to all kinds of other gods...
Here's a very very x rated image of the mushushu form of Ningishzidda, found on the gates of Ishtar at Babylon, and on Abrahadabra...

[link broken]

we can't bring up genetic experimentation without mentioning the incredible horniness of the Annunnaki...Enki was especially renowned for seducing the $#1t out of girls...

[links broken]

So what are you thoughts on the whole alien race thing with regards to Ng and the Annanuki?

Some truth to it or just bollocks?

For those unaware the short version is that the Annanuki were an alien race that came to Earth to create human beings using DNA genetics!
The Zetcharin Sitchin debris?

I don't know, it all seems like a bunch of hype to me, and perhaps Ng views it as useful...I don't proclaim to know anything about the ways of gods, but I do know a lot about marketing strategy...

As far as aliens go, I do believe they exist, and I have quite enough experiences and family history to know on my own part, somewhat, that they exist and are here among us already. But this doesn't really enter into my life very much, they are a very minor detail that I only discuss when someone brings it up.

And of course, there is the situation that we are all some type of "alien" even the gods are simply aliens of a type we humans have a very difficult time imaging as being interstellar travellers that journey from solar system to solar system, to check up on their girlfriends or internal affairs...

This goes right down back to the dawn of time where the Absolute encounters it's own reflection in nothingness...or myriad other ways of putting it..."aliens" are simply another facet of reality.

So sure.....but it doesn't mean that that alien is as big as 2-300 galaxies...encompassing entire realms of existence upon one mindform...
LadyHydralisk:
My understanding was that Ningishzidda was a male deity,
husband to Ninazua (Lady productive branch) and his name meant "Lord of
the Good Tree"

us4-he2-gal2: Well L.H., This is certainly one Ive been figuring on
getting to, and this would be a good pretext. Ninišhzida (I'm using
the rendering of the name as it appears in a recent scholarly
publication. But my tilde wont get over my g as its supposed to..) is a
deity who has incurred much speculation and comparison I notice from a
moments googleing around. There would appear to be three main source's
for perspective on this deity:

1. People who take the sign on the ambulance and work backwards in a horrible sequence of comparison
2. Thorkild Jacobsen
3. Papers and articles primarily from sometime around 1902 which focus on the instance of Gishzida in the story of Adapa.


I enjoy Jacobsen, and your understanding accords well there. Thats who
I lean on in the case, and I dont think it would be wise to draw from 1
or 3 at all.


To start with I am looking through a book "The Temples of Ancient
Mesopotamia" by A.R George [1993] this books is a wonderful resource
for temples. With careful referencing and some difficulty, Cohens
accompanying notes may provide further leads.

The author in this book has some 1449 temple entries, the following 8 correspond to our Deity

[...]

I haven't made up my mind up, but I tend to try and look at things first from a boring and logical angle before I apply any sort of mysticism, and so far Ng is nothing but a representation of DNA, or the DNA process. That is why he might also be a she, like the X and Y.

Check out this post... (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showpost.php?p=28822&postcount=7)

But I am not saying you are wrong... I've just not decided 100% yet where to cast my vote, and after all we can't really know for sure since it all took place thousands of years ago! But it's great fun to speculate!
Deviadah you are familiar with the concepts of The Supreme Absolute?

In this manifestation of supreme reality, the masculine contains the feminine within it...ie, it exists as a component of The Absolute which is neither wholly male nor female, but when it manifests in the realm of forms, this form is referred to as being masculine in nature.

You see it in Buddhism constantly, where the non-dualistic supreme boddhisattva descends and splits off into two separate parts, a female deity representing wisdom, and a male deity representing compassion.

So actually...

I completely agree with you on many levels.

I just don't think that viewing Ng as *primarily* female is as archaeologically authentic as regarding him as masculine containing all feminine - after all, he is the tree, his wife is the branch...this indicates to me that he was regarded in a similar form as the gods depicted in the Tibetan thangkas, the trinity of

Absolute form

On the contrary I don't find logic boring at all, I am in fact a very logical person who utilizes chaos theory in equations.

To say that Ng is *nothing* but DNA is a wild flight of the imagination, since we know that Ancient Sumer did not have any hard knowledge of DNA itself like we do today. What they *had* were tree roots and serpents and all manner of twisting forms which tend to excite the eye anyways (I'm an artist, I know what looks good to fleshly eyes)

So logically, it's best to look at it from an ancient perspective first before we start diving into all sorts of speculation.

My own speculations about Ng actually go way beyond DNA alone, which I think has recieved far too much attention in metaphysical literature - while it is interesting, it's nowhere near as complex as some other cosmological features indicated by science today. Both the holographic universe and string theory also share some similarities here, and now we have the plasmic universe model which as I indicated earlier this year on Abrahadabra, also has a twining form....

I've been enjoying your posts on Abrahadabra by the way, keep up the good work - wish I could join in but I barely have any time these days as it is....

Awani
01-02-2009, 01:36 AM
Interesting... there is certainly a lot to think about.

While looking for something on Gnosticism I stumbled upon this:

List of Dragons (http://lowchensaustralia.com/names/dragons.htm)

I thought it could interest you, if you haven't come across it before. But I know you like dragons...
Great compilation, thanks Deviadah...you're so damned helpful. What's wrong with you?
Oh, I only suffer from insomnia.

And also I am just trying to benefit mankind in any large, or small, way!
I understand, I've been suffering from cat naps lately....

Now mind you, insomnia could just be your natural state of awareness coming forward to take charge...
This I am sure is true. And often in conjunction with the full moon.

Have you had any moon experience with Ng? Or sun for that matter?
Sure, plenty of both.

I recorded one instance of the moon in my Thoth Count Journal (which may or may not still be up - I don't have permissions to access Abrahadabra University materials)

I also locked myself out of my magickal journals so can't quite remember all the details here...

But take a look at the two crescent moons on the Grid Proofs 001....

So what are you thoughts on the whole alien race thing with regards to Ng and the Annanuki?

Some truth to it or just bollocks?The whole story of the Annunaki has so many holes in it you could package it up and sell it as a sponge...just to begin with we are told that this alien race only got here because their home planet came within an easy travel distance to earth and the next time we will see them is when it comes round again. What a load of crap...supposedly we were barely monkeys the last time they were here and now we have probes on Uranus and beyond. Are we supposed to believe that a race of gods would not have mastered intra-galactic space/time travel in all that time? Are they like retarded gods or something? So either they never really left or they aren't exactly what they were made out to be to begin with - or both.

I believe that there is probably some truth to the Annunaki but I don't much believe in any of the tabloid journalism surrounding this phenomena...I think the truth is actually more amazing than any of this and that these forces are masters of InnerSpace somehow...certainly Ningishzidda is at least. These are archetypes on a mission and they make their appearance in human civilization - not just once - but many times over in slightly different modalities...but seeded clean across the board.

Powerful archetypes that can always be independantly validated at the level of InnerSpace itself. I think their cultural roots lie with human consciousness itself moreso than anything else. They are Us in some way and always have been...we know them because we are them, essentially...

m1thr0s
Oooh, nicely said m1thr0s.
Well I've been scanning the crap out of this thing for some time Naomi...as have you, I know...it all adds up.

And I have not only seen Ng...well...this might come off all wrong...but I have seen myself identified by others as Ng...not just a little...but by untold billions of highly intelligent beings spanning millions of cultures on an intergalactic scale...

yeah I know...that's way out there, but there is where it is...I take trancework very seriously and on very rare occasions have been literally blasted right through the fucking roof...no exact explanation for it either and I don't really try to draw exact conclusions but there are some things I have learned...

So I have reason to believe in this They=Us theory both as a studied transmutationist and also from personal experience (which I never actually bargained for)...

Exactly how that kind of thing might be possible or why etc all takes a long time to sort through but it's all on record really...none of it is actually unheard of at all. Many adept Shamans would be saying...yeah right...tell us something else we don't already know...lol

edit: I should explain something I guess...this *package* that I hesitantly call *myself* is no more the full weight of Ningishzidda than it is the full force of the Sun...so let's clear the air on that as much as possible. But some particle of myself has at some time *assumed the mantle* of this great archetype directly and in that moment no discrepancy was found to exist (else I imagine I would have been chewed up and spit out fast). I was even presented with the name many years before I had any clue what it meant. In a trance...the Universe approached me and called me by this name and a very powerful experience transpired immediately on the heels of this unlikely interaction. I don't exactly know what it means...I have never exactly understood it, but I can sure as hell report that it lit a fire under my ass that has never died out and is largely responsible for the kinds of insights I have gleaned regarding the whole science of Inner Alchemy in general.

"sometimes you eat the bear - sometimes the bear eats you" - anonymous

m1thr0s
(cracking the cosmic egg for a living...)
Do you think people might be predispositioned to one archetype or another or is this something that develops naturally due to circumstances?

No you don't have to explain it, I understand the idea.

It doesn't really have any meaning to me in my cosmology anyways since everyone is all collectively involved in this work of art called the universe and by their presence the machinery is achieved, so thus one can be aware of unity and godlike action and not be bewildered by the illusion of divisions such as what you are attempting to express here.

- but that's Krsna consciousness....sri prahbupahd told all of his devotees that the children in ISCKON centers all came from Vishnuloka, did you know?
Here's a neat little clip:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/ngnote.jpg

These forms arise through evolution, become restless with discontent, arise and resolve through revolution, sleep for centuries, only to rise again when their time is needed once more...

Some, I think, are a little less human-centric than others....
I don't know - diversity is fun, that's all...and a lot has to do with the land itself. Ever notice how animals always seem to assume the same character as their environments? Did that ever really surprize you? I'm guessing not...it's pretty obvious really...yet we seem to get confused that notions of godhead would vary from place to place...

The Chinese Sages examine the wheel of life and see 64 Hexagrams rotating around the LoShu Diagram. East Indian Sages look at the same wheel and see 64 Dakinis dancing around Siva...coincidence? Sure, maybe...but take a little time and really count them all up. We've got a major pandemic of coincidences going on here, and that's no exaggeration!

Diversity is the way of things and literally every angle you view the universe from is technically a completely different universe anyway...all the same...all different...all at once.

m1thr0s

Awani
01-02-2009, 01:38 AM
Diversity is the way of things and literally every angle you view the universe from is technically a completely different universe anyway...all the same...all different...all at once.
Add to this the fact that there is another form of diversity going on depending on WHO is doing the viewing!

There can't be any order made from all this chaos... sometimes it is really depressing since I yearn to see the whole universe at once, in a simple unified theory or form. I have seen it in dreams and meditation, only for seconds, and it is very daunting. It seems to be surrounded by a golden glow!

Edit: There can be order made from all this chaos... our only failure is our attention span!

Edit: There can be order made from all this chaos... our only failure is our attention span!that's actually one of the things Ningishzidda represents...order from chaos...In some stories the emphasis is placed on Ng as the son of Enki (younger I believe, but I have seen elder asserted at least once) which corresponds nicely with the Ptah-Thoth connection, but perhaps more signficant is that this also makes him a direct grandson of Tiamat & Apsu. Unlike Enki, Ng retains the form of his grandparents as well as those of his father and here the iconography gets muddled since there are several main forms of Ningishzidda. As lord of the underworld and keeper of the gates of Heaven he assumes the Mushushu Dragon form which does not look human in any respect at all.

But we see this same symbolism in other serpentine forms as well - this whole idea of the cosmic serpent as a direct emanation of chaos itself. The act of chaos assuming a functional form inherently implies order from chaos, so the Ouroboros Serpent and others (many dragon forms etc) all sort of represent this same principle. In China this same symbolism is represented in the form of Nu Kua - also part human - part serpent (she is the original water dragon) - again identified as the creator of the human race and again assigned the attribution of Order from Chaos...From Nu Kua, the 64 Hexagrams of the I Ching derive, which modern historians now believe predate Fu Xi anyway, so we have archeological confirmation on this...

m1thr0s
ok

how do you impose order on chaos? I'd like to know that....
Divide to conquer is the famed Illuminati motto... but it is not all bad (as is the Illuminati - the Weishaupt one that is). And in alchemy we have the above and below, the division... if we unite what seperates we form a unity. Chaos can be split up in two parts... then each part can be dealt with after which we just put them back together. Bob's yer uncle... we got ORDER!

Edit: Keep in mind that this answer was done with automatic writing so I am not yet sure if I am on to something or just rambling like a maniac... but automatic writings tend to be, at least a little, on the ball!

uh huh, ok next time I have trouble with Erishikigal I'll tell her to spread em....somehow I am not sure that will work....

Maybe flattery...
Well first of all, Primal Chaos IS ordered...it isn't the same thing as dispersion/confusion which is more like a shadow form of true, or First Chaos. But also I don't think it is Ng's function to impose order on chaos itself so much as he manifests order from chaos. So what's the point of that? It gives us the alchemical First Matter precedent and speaks to the idea of Universal Form itself.

Fast-forward a bit to star-theory and we see this precedent put into action at the level of human form, which according to star-theory is not actually the true form of human consciousness. It's a prediction of sorts - very similar to the 5 Koshas premise of the Vedas - that the human form is actually the lowest rung in a chain of forms accessible to humankind. Surely this is not difficult to imagine for anyone who has experienced operating in other embodied forms, whether in a simple dream or via altered consciousness states.

Ng represents this higher anatomical standard in my view...his form is fluid and highly transmutable...yet stable...much as we might expect from any form primarily composed of the Materia Prima...

Note: Crowley makes a big deal of the Spirit/Fire fusion which defines a very lofty condition of matter - technically just beneath the Prima Materia itself but otherwise at the top of the elemental food chain. Dragons,Serpents etc typically come under this classification elementally. The Djinn were sort of next in line, being a race of beings primarily rooted in Fire etc... Alchemy often speaks of Alchemical Air, which is a Spirit/Air fusion - also very lofty and having great Ascension qualities etc... But I class Ng as a bona fide Spirit/Fire fusion for the mostpart...
So Ng, quite possibly, as a more qualified technician for this mess than previous operators...

I see that in the Vedic literature too, where you become overseer of tehe body by simply refusing to be held to it's rediculous desires, which can be both pleasant simultaneously detrimental. Part of this may be understanding true will, the desire to fulfill that, but this is difficult to achieve a desire for unless you're blatantly honest with yourself and with nature itself.

Mastering the body so that it obeys our highest will is the first challenge, and one that is addressed through yoga in practicing restriction until the practitioner is old enough to understand how to enjoy without becoming mastered by these desires.

My attitude now is that my body is my godamned vehicle and if it isn't going to do what I want it's going to be trained. Ng consciousness is a lot like this I think and the serpent in Vedic literature - Ananta is considered to be master of the entire universe, his slightest movement in the lowest underworld creates earthquakes, although he is quite benevolent, m1thr0s I know you already know about this shit but for the benefit of the thread:

"That
Ananta is for certain the Supreme Lord, the reservoir of all
transcendental qualities and the original Godhead who in
restraint of the force of His intolerance and wrath remains for
the welfare of the humans of all worlds."

[..]

"This universe with its mountains, trees, oceans and beings is
like an atom fixed on the crest of Ananta, the thousand headed
one; whomever, however many his tongues, is, due to His
inscrutable power, able to enumerate His
potencies?
Existing completely self-sufficient at the base of the nether
worlds is Ananta the so very powerful Supreme Lord of
insurmountable prowess and the great one of all transcendental
qualities and glory, who playfully for its maintenance keeps
the earth from falling.'"

- Srimad Bhagavagatam

(note: Ananta (lit. "endless") is a snake who rests this entire universe like a grain of a mustard seed on just one of his scales)

Note: Crowley makes a big deal of the Spirit/Fire fusion which defines a very lofty condition of matter - technically just beneath the Prima Materia itself but otherwise at the top of the elemental food chain. Dragons,Serpents etc typically come under this classification elementally. The Djinn were sort of next in line, being a race of beings primarily rooted in Fire etc... Alchemy often speaks of Alchemical Air, which is a Spirit/Air fusion - also very lofty and having great Ascension qualities etc... But I class Ng as a bona fide Spirit/Fire fusion for the mostpart...

Ok that's interesting.

Wait what is Prima Materia in relation to the Ain Soph Ur stuff?
Note this Wiki definition on the Greek Proteus:


In Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology), Proteus is an early sea-god, one of several deities whom Homer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer) calls the "Old Man of the Sea"[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus#_note-0), whose name suggests the "first", as protogonos is the "primordial" or the "firstborn". He became the son of Poseidon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon) in the Olympian theogony (Odyssey iv. 432), or of Nereus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nereus) and Doris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris), or of Oceanus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus) and a Naiad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naiads), and was made the herdsman of Poseidon's seals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinniped), the great bull seal at the center of the harem. He can foretell the future, but, in a mytheme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mytheme)
familiar from several cultures, will change his shape to avoid having
to; he will answer only to someone who is capable of capturing him.
From this feature of Proteus comes the adjective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective) protean,
with the general meaning of "versatile", "mutable", "capable of
assuming many forms": "Protean" has positive connotations of
flexibility, versatility and adaptability.

See any similarities with Ng? I sure as hell do as well as the mergence into Hermes that evolved later on...

It's important to understand that the "water" being identified here is not like the water of earth...it's more akin to the Cosmic waters of Apsu & Tiamat. Elementally...it's not really water so much as Spirit fused with Matter, which often gives us this image of Cosmic Waters...

So yeah...I think Ng points the way for us all anatomically...

m1

Wait what is Prima Materia in relation to the Ain Soph Ur stuff?Same stuff really, if you compare and contrast all available parallels...but placed in a context outside the Tree of Life. Abrahadabra, on the other hand, seems to have something else to say...that while it may be outside the Tree of Life - it is NOT outside the Star!

And that's big...and will also be controversial as the model matures...but Abrahadabra isn't mincing any words on this. Ain Soph Aur is decidedly *on the grid* according to its predictions...

So for now, I regard these two elemental constructs to be the same thing...

m1thr0s
Ah alright then, Ain Soph Ur...yeah no big deal, got that covered...next? rofl

Sure Ningishzidda as proteus is easy to imagine, especially since Poseidon was originally a horse god. Seals are about as far from horses as you can get, but Ng seems to have a monopoly on humans who are the pinnacle of mammals in general, and on reptiles, even turtles seem to act as his notepaper.

I like Erishkigal also, I tend to get her as a cute squid or giant spiders, I don't think ng has all the cards, but most of them...or Erishikigal is one of his cards...

I'd like to figure out how to master all of these elements on this layered level, to me this is really a lot more useful than the old 5 element stuff..
Environment again I think...water was a big deal to the Greeks...

But again...Apsu & Tiamat are the Primal Waters...so it all pans out really...

m1
Here's the lamp of Ningishzidda, uncovered at Lagash:

[link broken]

Here is a painting of Apep:

[link broken]


Environment again I think...water was a big deal to the Greeks...

But again...Apsu & Tiamat are the Primal Waters...so it all pans out really...

m1

thanks for speaking m1thr0s.

I want to work a little more on this elemental layering and find out what's behind it all. There's not enough in the books, so perhaps experimentation will yield more results.

Awani
01-02-2009, 01:40 AM
Another Apep:

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/apep2.jpg
Now Apep? Xst, man...talk about a rabbit-hole...this thing just never stops.
I was completely unaware of the Apep connection...Nice work you two...

I'm telling you though...at a certain point you have to begin to ask yourself where the hell does Ng NOT make his/her debut...

And yet somehow...throughout all of that...still it comes down to us today as a complete mystery.

one of the most bizarre mysteries unfolding in modern occultism...

I don't know about anybody else but I find this particular alchemical *angle* a LOT more engaging than, say, Paracelsus...and I LIKE Paracelsus...but this is cosmic...this is something really very big. It all winds up coming back to Genetics by the way...and genetic alchemy in particular...we've only just touched on that so far. Ng is all about the Body of Man...and bodies, in general...ALL bodies...

Ningishzidda has laid the foundation to what i have been calling *global* alchemy...what we are witnessing is the persistent evolution of a common alchemical theme across many cultures...many time periods...very much centered on medicine and consciousness as its principal focus throughout...

This is the healing art we are tracking here...this is not so much about gunpowder and all that other crapola...

m1thr0s
Yes Apep's head is said to be made of flint, too, so there's your fire connection....
I think that to really understand the Spirit/Fire fusion, you may have to know a little about classical qabbalah. There is a certain pecking order to the elements, mirrored both east and west, with spirit at apex, descending into fire as the root element of either the 4 or the 8 additional elements, depending on which path you take. So Fire is Father (Pangenetor) and Heaven predominently and we get iconography like firebirds and serpents and dragons and winged forms of all kinds etc...a rich array of emblems across the board including the Djinn and the Phoenix and Winged Globes and just all kinds of stuff...

So it it said then that Fire contains all the other elements within itself and of course we can see an easy parallel with this to stars for instance...yet even fire itself descends from Spirit so spirit always comes first.

What this means though is that we may see indications of other elements in Fire that would seem to belong to other elemental categories...such as air or earth or water etc... Moreso that we find operating in reverse.
It seems weird...I mean...huh....

Spirit/Akasha lends fire wings, so what does it lend to air?

I was thinking psi. What animals would be associated with it? Unicorns?

nevermind, I will return to this later when I have studied some more.

I use the Bardonian system where

Fire and Water are the originals, and then you have Air as a communicative device that arrises from the presence of fire seeking water, and then earth as a union of those three. Akasha is treated as an underlying element that powers everything else.

I guess Unicorns would be pure spirit, alchemical air might be electricity right, so...lol pikachu...
I've read somewhere that if you grind up the horn of a unicorn it is one of the main ingredients of the Elixir of Life... but this is probably just an old wives tale.

Perhaps we should consider the work of Anton Mesmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Mesmer)?

Mesmer suggests that the movement of the universal fluid could easily be observed in an illness. He was convinced that this fluid flowed through both animate and inanimate bodies. Most easily observed in organic nature in the properties of magnetism. Mesmer called its parrallel form in the human body animal magnetism. The temporary relief he provided periodically could become a permanent cure if reinforced properly.

The power of the magnet itself was not the source of the curative effect. Mesmer realised that the power to direct the currents, the animal magnetism, to cleanse and restore the patient was bound to the will of the physician.

Anyway not to stray too far away from the subject at hand all animals possess a form of energy that us humans lack, or keep dormant within us. I am sure if we can awake this force it would feel like wings of fire!

Just imagine if our senses were that of an animal while at the same time we have our superior intelligence; now that would be a trip!
Oh yes I like animals and animal nature, they are very innocent.

Grinding the horn of a unicorn? That's dreadful. It's like Voldemort sucking on unicorn blood. Gross.

To be funny I replaced my forum's censored word list with m1thr0s for ningishzidda and ningishzidda for m1thr0s, so all instances replace each other.

It makes the forum fucking hilarious....oh god I can't stop laughing.

Don't tell m1 what the link is. (haha!)

So today I noticed DNA isn't the be all end of all of human development, alot of our features come from enviroment, and apparently even our DNA can be shaped later in life even after childhood by enviromental factors. (stress kills!)

Edit:

awww I got stripped of admin for that practical joke....what a bunch of retards I put in charge

So today I noticed DNA isn't the be all end of all of human development, alot of our features come from enviroment, and apparently even our DNA can be shaped later in life even after childhood by enviromental factors. (stress kills!)
Yeah, this is my feeling too.

Perhaps suicide is an effect of too much DNA mutation? Speaking of course of those that kill themselves out of will, too much intelligence and such - not from loosing ones job or something like it.
Well I don't know, it can get lonely when you have nothing but your own mind to bounce ideas off of...is that what you mean?

Some guys are really just so dumb you can run them like a computer...really, input in, output predictable...

so you have to make life a little more interesting for yourself when you're more intelligent or you just die of boredom and this could include suicide I guess...

But who knows...
While genetic study isn't my forte, I was wondering if we had any clues for the shapes of RNA, since many sources seem to be saying it's just as important, if not moreso, than DNA for determining traits.

On the flint-head thing, an interesting note that Dev may remember from the Hrungmismal is how Thor received a piece of flint in his brow (third eye?) after smiting the giant Hrungnir. Further related is Thor and Jormundgandr's mutual annihilation, tying back to the serpent theme, if not the Orouboros. This is a bit of a divergence, and I apologize for such, but it seems to corroborate the notions of global alchemy as stated earlier.
Well, the will to destroy oneself, as posited by Robert Bloom in The Lucife Principle, comes from a lack of purpose in th greater context, whether actual or perceived. Communal animals who have no nurturance upon birth end up self-mutilating much of the time, and sometimes just die on their own. This is in response to Dev's suicide statement.
That's very true. Sometimes self-mutilation can take on surprisingly subtle and insidious avenues in humans, because we are such complex animals. Cigarettes and alcohol abuse are two obvious examples, but other things like plastic surgery, reading trashy magazines and watching soap operas are three I can think of that damage women emotionally and physically. I have an aunt in law who died from complications related to breast implants leaking and the same goes for men generally now, too - though I really don't keep up with GQ or Maxim anymore than I do Cosmopolitan....a little fashion is ok but it's not generating any good for mankind in general at an obnoxious level.

Something else to consider is the state of man at this point in time, reflecting back to a time when swords and death was an everyday reality of a turbulent enviroment such as it was in Ancient Mesopotamia, Ningishzidda has an entirely new context in light of science and nuclear physics and so forth - we're seeing Ng revisited like never before. As it is with many ancient gods - Anubis has turned from dead soul helper to character out of a horror film in popular media (which counts often more than the odd pagan instance, I think)

There's a lot that can be learned from revisiting the old gods on new terms, so one may find out more about Ningishzidda by also revisitng some of his contemporaries, such as Nergal, Bau, Erishkigal and Inanna...what are they doing today (in the human psyche drama)?
Agh. I mean. Howard Bloom.

One thing to also consider is how a deity, regardless of name, has a modern analogue in one form or another. Dagda of Celtic myth, Wodan, and Cernunnos all jumble together into Santa Claus, for instance. The general populace has deified Marilyn Munroe, who herself was a persona akin to a posession of Norma Jean IforgotherlastnameandI'msorryforthat, who may very well be something like a modern analogue to Aphrodite that couldn't be sustained in a human form (hence Norma Jean's subsequent suicide).
Marilyn Monroe
{Norma Jeane Mortenson}

[link broken]

Born: June 1, 1926 Died: August 5, 1962
Thank you very much for this, MythMath.

Awani
01-02-2009, 01:46 AM
On the flint-head thing, an interesting note that Dev may remember from the Hrungmismal is how Thor received a piece of flint in his brow (third eye?) after smiting the giant Hrungnir. Further related is Thor and Jormundgandr's mutual annihilation, tying back to the serpent theme, if not the Orouboros. This is a bit of a divergence, and I apologize for such, but it seems to corroborate the notions of global alchemy as stated earlier.Actually I didn't know about this. I am not at all well versed in Norse Mythology... I'm more looking at the horizon than what's in my backyard... perhaps this is a mistake on my part. I have, though, some notes here and there that I need to get into this Norse stuff since there are several things that correspond to other myths and legends.

Nidhogg (http://nidhoggz.blogspot.com/) and Ng are on opposite sides of the mirror!
Ah. Well, the Hrungnismal is probably one of my favorites, as it has Thor pitted against a giant most obviously his dark reflection, and has a very little known section discussing flint, which has a certain significance as you read the myth. You might also find it as the Lay of Hrungnir. Either way, the similarities in Norse myths to so many early cultures does indeed promote, at least in my mind, how much our species' spiritual history is but a series of criss-crossing lines all leading to the same source, like a knot of serpents.
Good to see Ningizzida being discussed here. I had in fact just being writing about Ningizzida for my new book, although I may have a few more avenues of research to follow up and expand my writing on him, as my main source currently was wikipedia (holds head in shame). Still, much of what I wrote holds up. I may as well quote it. Please bare in mind this is a first draft that hasn't even been proof read, so be kind. This is quite short as I only really intended it as an opening paragraph to the section on the Caduceus:



Images of a staff or wand with one or two serpents coiled about them seem to date from thousands of years ago. The earliest example currently known to us dates from between 2200 and 2025 BCE in Mesopotamia, a representation of the deity Ningizzida. It depicts two horned dragon like snakes, probably 'bashmu' dragons, the animal sacred to Ningizzida. Serpents coil about one another during copulation, and so it seems reasonable to assume that this image of Ningizzida contains both a male and a female dragon, as if to reinforce the hermaphrodite nature of the symbolism. What is more Ningizzida is described as having a wife (Ninazimua or Dazimua), and being the son of Ninazu, yet the prefix 'Nin' refers to a female entity in Sumerian. They are sometimes also depicted as a serpent with a human head. Their name means 'Lord of the Good Tree', and they were considered a deity of medicine, appeared as one of two guardians at the gates of Anu's celestial palace in Sumerian myth and was also a messenger to the goddess Ishtar, the Queen of Heaven and Earth. Ningizzida was associated with constellation of Hydra.


Now, I obviously interpret the deity as Hermaphrodite in my initial research, although from reading here I suspect the deity is almost certainly more likely male, or was masculinised at a certain point in Sumerian history whilst retaining the female appellation. Also, just to think about the origins of the word 'woman' derived from 'wyf-man', whereas the male was refered to as 'waep-man' or 'wer-man'. I'm not sure but the term for male simply meant something like 'human with weapon', whilst 'wyf-man' meant 'human with womb'. In other words terms for gender were more about what you did than what you were physically (although there may have been a strong correlation).

Could it be that Nin was a similar prefix based more on what you did? Maybe a class of males came into being in early Sumerian civilisation that were not primarily hunters or warriors? Perhaps learned medicine and such things, and thus earned the prefix Nin?

Of course, in the Caduceus like image of Ningizzida we are still presented with the idea that there are TWO serpents, and since they are in mating form it seems likely one of them is female. Perhaps it is intended to be his wife, (Ninazimua or Dazimua), and the ancients would have understood this without needing explanation, just like Catholics understand that in a picture of Mary holding a babe, the babe is Jesus without that needing to be explained.

Also, just to think about the origins of the word 'woman' derived from 'wyf-man', whereas the male was refered to as 'waep-man' or 'wer-man'. I'm not sure but the term for male simply meant something like 'human with weapon', whilst 'wyf-man' meant 'human with womb'. In other words terms for gender were more about what you did than what you were physically (although there may have been a strong correlation).Interesting... didn't know about this!

I have a soft heart for linguistics I must admit, but linguistics is also agreat deal of trouble since origins of words are different in each culture/language. Even if some words are - in their root form - similar, many are not since there is not one original language of the human race... unless of course we speak of The Lost Speech (telepathy) or some UFO language - take your pick, but I vote for the former.

I don't think the gender of Ng is that important, same with humans. In the eternal realm of gnosis gender is non-existent!

But it sure is food for thought!

Have a look at THIS (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showpost.php?p=27823&postcount=88) by MythMath
Not sure I'd agree that the lost speech is telepathy. I'd say it is more likely the kind of communication we had before we invented words. Probably closer to glossolalia, and was mainly used to communicate emotion rather than ideas.

But yeah, I wasn't trying to say 'Nin' meant the same thing as 'wyf', just that like 'wyf' it may have meant something more to do with gender role rather than physical gender. Emphasis on 'may'. I like to speculate as much as anyone else on this forum...



I don't think the gender of Ng is that important, same with humans. In the eternal realm of gnosis gender is non-existent!


I see gender as important, or least it feels important to me. In the eternal realm of gnosis the word 'is' has no meaning, and thus it is just as meaningless to say 'is non-existent' of something in that realm as it is to say 'is real'. When working with historical entities I prefer a respectable level of accuracy where possible rather than deliberately ignoring known facts.


Have a look at THIS (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showpost.php?p=27823&postcount=88) by MythMath

Interesting.

I am very much interested in the Hermaphroditic mysteries.
I guess it depends on how we look at history, not saying you are wrong... just looking at it from a different shore!

As I said your input is interesting and I will take it into consideration for future dabblings!

Keep it up!

I guess it depends on how we look at history, not saying you are wrong... just looking at it from a different shore!


I wasn't saying I was right either, just that I think the truth (or respect for what we know is probably true) matters. Of course, some new excavation may unearth evidence that Ningizidda was originally a goddess and underwent a change of sex as Sumerian civilisation developed. Stranger things have happened.

Baphomet may have undergone a change from Female to Male to Hermaphrodite over the centuries for example...



As I said your input is interesting and I will take it into consideration for future dabblings!


Indeed, as is this forum and the ideas expressed by its members, including yourself.
A few chapters on Ningishzidda.Well,I was hoping for a book....so a few chapters will have to do.

A good place for research is the excellent topic on Ningishzidda at occultforums.I got a lot from that.

Zecharia Sitchens book 'The Lost Realms' is also good even though some of his information is suspect.But its always like that,isnt it?
Still its a good place to start.

With the confusion over the meaning of 'nin' in a name I dont think its written in blood that its automatically female.Ninurta being an example.

And I have always believed that Ningishzidda was one of the children of Enki,as does Sitchin as well as other more credible historians whose research I am unable to quote for you at this time.Kramer,perhaps?

I believe Ng's father Enki was originally assigned the Caduceus until it was appropriated by Ningishzida at a later time.

Dan Winter has written some interesting articles about all this incorparating fractals and sacred geometry.Of course there are some parts that you have to suspend judgement on. Its at www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_danwinter08.htm

Good luck with your research,I would like to read the book you have written as well as this forthcoming one.

Monkeyblood

With the confusion over the meaning of 'nin' in a name I dont think its written in blood that its automatically female. Ninurta being an example.
Yes, it is hard to be certain when it concerns the antediluvian world... that is certain!

And as you say one has to be careful not to believe everything one reads concerning Ng since there are some pretty crazy conspiracies out there that I - personally - feel are a bit too much even for me!
Yes,as much as I like my conspiracies......some of the things that are written!......too much,just too much.The trick is to try to sift it all for the nuggets of gold they bring out that orthodox research would not go near......I've caught Sitchin out on a few things to do with astrology so then I think "How suspect is his other information in fields I know little about?"
Dan Winter has been a cosmonaut in his time,as well....still I think they are worth reading....not alot about Ningishzida in academic research and there is something about him.....

Awani
01-11-2009, 04:15 AM
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/ng.jpg

Awani
12-18-2009, 05:28 PM
Found this:

The staff or wand ( Latin CADUCEUS) carried by Hermes was perhaps originally a fetish representing the mandrake root as guessed by Partington.
The serpent staff also appears on a Sumerian vase of c. 2000 B.C. representing the healing god Ningishita, the prototype of Asklepios. Another different staff (Lat LITTUS, perhaps Etruscan) was an augur's wand. - source (http://www.alchemywebsite.com/caduceus.html)

Ningishita is not another spelling of Ningishzidda? Is it?

:cool:

Goldlion973
07-26-2013, 10:54 AM
.lol. How Naomi got her name, suppose this was in her wilder days before settling down at Abrahadabra if the OccultForums was still in operation... from what I can tell there have been major changes at Abra, have to pay to contribute now as its institutionalizing. Think my membership has been revoked as I didn't frequent/contribute enough :-(

Is a good site and all but it all got a tad too left brained for me.