PDA

View Full Version : Patriotism; support the troops or not?



DonSweet
11-20-2014, 02:43 AM
Spin-off from this (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4145-Interstellar) thread.
------------------------------


Well each to their own taste... I think Fury was boring. I don't care about soldiers or patriotism... in fact the most annoying thing with Interstellar was the American flag on one of the planets.

The scientific details of Interstellar is irrelevant, it's a movie and the interesting thing, for me, are the philosophical consequences of interstellar travel, time and dimensions. Some of it probably more true than we realize.

Curious dev ...

Where do you live?

Awani
11-20-2014, 09:17 AM
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/447px-Flag_of_Europe_wavingsvg_zpsfa8fc987.png

;)

DonSweet
11-20-2014, 08:27 PM
dev ...

I was kinda eluding to a physical, earthly location, not a theoretical, generalistic, multi-national, semi-geographic concept.

If it helps break the ice, I'm eastern Pennsylvania ... Bucks County ... or ... in other words ... the right side of the continent that is on the left of the visible concentration of surface land mass and above the upside-down arrowhead-shaped continent, specifically situated at the former termination of the most recent ice sheet between the third, farthest rubble line and the wash plane below it, about halfway up the coastline, inland slightly and just above the largest visible estuary.

Not asking for your address ... just a sense of what part of the Earth.

Awani
11-21-2014, 03:02 AM
LOL, that was what I answered: Europe, to be more exact the top half.

:cool:

DonSweet
11-21-2014, 05:30 PM
Thanks dev ...

That narrows it down ...

... to Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Denmark, Lithuania, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Germany, Poland, Russian or Kazakhstan.

Throw in Ireland or the UK if you're talking strict geography.

Only reason I asked was your Fury comment, which I took a smidge of exception to.

No "blame" really. It's easy to become disassociated from events seventy years ago ... three-plus generations.

But personally, I pay attention to pivotal events in human history, despite how I might find their happenstance repugnant.

Doesn't get much more relevant than World War Two, however.

It's hard for me to ignore sixty million deaths in a five or six year period.

Who would DO such a thing?

I've spent many years wrestling with that, particularly coming from a military family, although I didn't serve myself.

Without getting into one of my [likely famous] diatribes, however you look at its cause, even a cursory glance makes you pick a side and root for them. And believe me, they deserve at least a glance ... even seventy years later.

Even if their participation, however trite or heroic, was utterly naive, knowing nothing about the true, real reasons the world was literally blowing up around them, THEY are the reason we aren't speaking either German or Japanese today.

Simple fact.

A hard fact.

A hard-earned fact.

Zero appreciation for that fact is cause for alarm, as far as I'm concerned ...

... particularly citing your "zero" percent interest. No offense intended.

Utterly ignoring highly relevant historical events, to me, is kind-of anti-Alchemy. It's almost like ignoring the boiling point of alcohol and just distilling "any-old-shit" you feel like. It's a bit like ignoring any of the past Masters, even the Emerald Tablet itself. We're here today, speaking of these things, speaking in the way we are, because of them, having little to do with ourselves. Without them, we might very well be scratching our asses playing video games, or worse, poking a fire wearing deerskin in front of our cave.

History matters.

Ancestral sacrifice matters.

It makes us what we are today.

Do we dwell there? Of course not, but "zero" understanding, possibly to the point of intolerance, is something I can't let slide.

The story of Fury and its men is directly and immediately relevant to who I am today ... and who you are, as a person. Your life would be ENTIRELY different if millions didn't sacrifice themselves in exactly the way the film portrays. And specifically, 407,000 American soldiers, men and women, that died ... for YOU ... like THAT.

Them's the facts m'am.

Awani
11-21-2014, 06:11 PM
Doesn't get much more relevant than World War Two, however.

Just childish bickering.


And specifically, 407,000 American soldiers, men and women, that died ... for YOU ... like THAT.

No one died for me, not even Jesus. They died on their own accord/will.

People like to portray Hitler as some evil demon that needed to be destroyed, but who writes the history books? The winner of wars does. Compared to our "own" leaders Hitler is no worse. Right now in Congo more people have been murdered since 9/11 than all deaths in WWII. And for what? So we can use our iPhones and PC's. Who is behind this? We are... the consumers led by the Big Corporation Worldwide.

It is all relative. Hitler lost so we have the world we have today... and gypsies and muslims are treated like second class citizens. If Hitler had won jews and homosexuals would have been treated like second class citizens. I'm not saying one is better than the other. It is all relative. No one can know for sure if the world would have been better with Hitler rule or not. Who knows...

Besides who funded Hitler? The same people who defeated him.

WWII = business deal
WWII = bullshit

WWII= count me in as a deserter

USA (or US government to be exact) is the cause of war not the cure of war... it has always been so.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/Unknown_zps14086e4e.jpeg


...are the reason we aren't speaking either German or Japanese today.

I've studied both these languages. ;)

:cool:

DonSweet
11-21-2014, 06:39 PM
Believe it or not, you're singing to the choir.

I'm no American Flag waving patriot ... particularly in the sense you appear to be indicating.

Just about every word you typed, I'm virtually in 100% agreement with ... and possibly just as angry over the facts of it ...

... save one you may have missed.

The Juggernaut of the war was going to happen. We were destined to lose to these powers ... and it's "we" ... meaning me, Don, or you, dev ... as much as it was "them" ... average citizens either yesterday or today.

What I discuss is NOT geopolitical ... not even remotely ... but the reaction of the average person responding at the time ... however naively ... however ignorantly.

Please note this point.

They did not know the true, actual reasons they needed to respond, but they acknowledged the need and responded.

Yet, I also know I've just wasted the last ten minutes of my life, wearing down my fingertips typing this.

I read "hate" in your writing ... hate for the entire concept of anyone doing anything for you, past or present ... and this hate seems to be severe.

You appear to have completely disassociated yourself from any single action of any other person on the face of the Earth, past or present.

It's fairly clear you hate the whole idea of anyone else having any influence over you whatsoever.

And yes, I'm fairly confident in that statement/observation.

I'm also confident ... based on fifty-eight years of living on this planet ... that it's utter horseshit to think you're disconnected from the rest of humanity ... historical or present-day or even future.

It's like ignoring a blue sky. It's there, whether you want it to be or not.

I can also see that I can't help you in your hate. It runs too deep. It's too entrenched. You can't help yourself.

Again, no offense. None whatsoever. I truly wish you happiness, as I do with anyone.

I just know ... that's "know", not "believe, not "think" ... that happiness will always elude you, in its truest sense that is.

Disassociation from truth or fact is merely delusion, no matter how much we might fool ourselves that such a disassociation makes us happy.

Awani
11-21-2014, 09:22 PM
I read "hate" in your writing ... hate for the entire concept of anyone doing anything for you, past or present ... and this hate seems to be severe.

Well I've made, at this point in time, almost 5000 posts over a 7 or so year period and I can't vouch for any past posts.

What I thought last year is not what I think now, not fully anyway. But if you base the above statement on what I've posted in this current 'debate' then you are extremely wrong. How can anyone have hate for childish behavior? Not me. What you do to childish behavior is laugh.


You appear to have completely disassociated yourself from any single action of any other person on the face of the Earth, past or present. It's fairly clear you hate the whole idea of anyone else having any influence over you whatsoever.

There is no hate. I try to be conscious of influence; allowing myself to be influenced or not allowing, but I can't relate to your statement.


I'm also confident ... based on fifty-eight years of living on this planet ... that it's utter horseshit to think you're disconnected from the rest of humanity ... historical or present-day or even future.

Age does not enforce an argument; rather it can make it suspect because the older a person is the more 'influence' s/he has suffered.


It's like ignoring a blue sky. It's there, whether you want it to be or not.

I'm not ignoring in the sense you think I am. I give an example; for years I enjoyed watching horror films, but after my last ayahuasca experience I no longer feel comfortable watching such films. I don't want that kind of energy around me. Am I ignoring horror films? Am I ignoring war and atrocities?

No, I just choose to invest my time and energy on other matters such as personal growth, love and enlightenment. It could be viewed as ignoring... and it could be viewed as a lack of empathy. But nothing can be further from the truth.

Also, and most importantly, we have war because we focus on war... law of attraction... ;)


I can also see that I can't help you in your hate. It runs too deep. It's too entrenched. You can't help yourself. Again, no offense. None whatsoever. I truly wish you happiness, as I do with anyone.

This doesn't work (aside from the fact that you make claims about my person that you know nothing about).

Your diplomacy does not work... it would be like if I said: you are a utterly lost, no offense intended. I wish you happiness, but you are beyond help. But I mean nothing bad about it.

Can you see it doesn't work?

Besides, personal attacks is not allowed. Look back in my statements and see if you can find any one instance where I have 'attacked' you on a personal level?

:cool:

DonSweet
11-22-2014, 07:09 AM
Well dev ...

We seem to be very far apart on certain concepts, yet right on target and in agreement with others.

One problem is, I believe, that you discount the participation of [virtually any] "average citizen" in this debacle we call human society ... clearly blaming them.

I can't do that.

Do you blame a cow for its manure? How can you blame an ignorant populace for something utterly outside their awareness?

"No one died for me."

Then your ancestors ... even your parents ... are utterly irrelevant.

It confuses me as to why you refuse to discuss even your country of origin ... despite your elusive assertion that you have no such thing. We all do.

That implies some level of shame.

Your culture/country of origin is rudimentary in the formation of your value system, your basis of morality, your social dynamic, your interpersonal and family dynamic, even your life skill set. No one can disassociate from their origins, no matter how repugnant they may consider them.

By this, I'm reading possibly Germany, or something in proximity. Dutch is another. Very close historic ties. One of my family names is German, "von Holle," meaning "from Holland."

And keep in mind that none of these things are "personal attacks." They are merely observations based on your responses and the demeanor you project through them. Yes, it's true that I'm challenging you, possibly even definable as provocation, but not personally and merely on an intellectual/philosophical level.

"People like to portray Hitler as some evil demon that needed to be destroyed, but who writes the history books? The winner of wars does."

"No one can know for sure if the world would have been better with Hitler rule or not. Who knows..."

You don't know me, and I don't know you, but both of the above are clearly statements of someone who leans towards revisionist history ...

... literally meaning they are willing to avoid the cold, hard, indisputable, evidentiary (meaning backed by hard evidence) facts of that history.

One of those facts is that the European theater of WWII (the core subject of the original discussion) cannot and should not be attributed entirely to Adolph Hitler. It is unquestionable to anyone with more than five brain cells firing that Hitler was "installed" by any number of military/industrial/corporate factions ... trans-national factions. He was merely a tool to be used by these factions.

That, however, was never even close to my original point about "sacrifice." Average citizens did not leave their families, homes and jobs to sacrifice for THAT ... but [possibly] more on that at a later date.

"Right now in Congo more people have been murdered since 9/11 than all deaths in WWII."

At a minimum, 60 million were killed in WWII. Currently, Congo is listed as having a population of 67.51 million, and in 2000, it hovered somewhere around 45 million. Unless you claim any of these statistics lie, you're saying they've killed 7 million short of all the people they have in their country now? That's a lot of baby-making and slaughter, so your claim simply doesn't add up.

If you're working from my 407,000 Americans killed, that was only Americans. The total ... conservatively ... was 60 million.

(Again, this is wholly, totally irrelevant to you? What dream-world do you live in that wholesale slaughter is irrelevant under any circumstances?)

Sorry ... I digress.

"USA (or US government to be exact) is the cause of war not the cure of war... it has always been so."

Here, not only do you clearly state revisionist history ... "No, Germany didn't start it and conquer Europe," ... and ... "No, Japan had nothing to do with conquering Manchuria, the Pacific or Southern Pacific or the Philippines," ... it was all the Americans ... all of it ... every shot fired ... every death ... the Americans ...

... but you also contradict this statement by accusing corporations and a multi-national power influence.

"Americans" and "corporations" are not one in the same.

It's not that it doesn't even fly logically ... it's an assertion from the planet Neptune, not Earth or Earth history.

Americans did it ALL?

Really?

Even if you assert that the American government alone turned all these nations, factions and armies into their puppets, is not the American government comprised of American people? American people did it all? No one else?

Americans made 2,500 Americans march on the Bataan Death March? American donned SS and Gestapo uniforms and stuffed non-Arians into cattle cars destined for the gas chambers and ovens? Americans snuck onto German and Japanese submarines, battleships and destroyers and sank everybody else's ships and submarines? Even their own? Americans in the hundreds of thousands became Italian citizens, grabbed a gun and a uniform and fought side-by-side with the Wehrmacht and the SS in Africa and Italy ... against AMERICANS??

What you suggest makes no sense.

You short-circuit any semblance of logic.

Was this a non-event? Did these people not die? Would not their grandchildren help populate the planet today were they not killed? Did they exist at all?

How could any of this have exactly zero effect on you today?

Not a personal attack, but merely a statement of fact:

ALL of these events have a direct bearing and immediate effect on who you are today ... if it didn't, you wouldn't be so obviously pissed at the whole thing, which you are at a minimum.

Those events effect who we ALL are.

Despite the "way" or "why" any of it happening ...

... it happened.

That is not and cannot be irrelevant.

Sorry ... but simple logic ... facts ... things that "are" ... will never be irrelevant no matter how much you stomp your foot that they are irrelvant.

Again ... not a personal attack ... but a simple statement based on the evidence of your statements and posts:

Your personal reality is an utter fantasy disassociated from actual fact-based reality.

Again ... yes again ... no offense ... but I think I'm done. I won't spend more of my time with someone living utter fantasies.

Thanks. It was an interesting ride.

postscript -- Yeah, some of what I typed above was a bit "revisionist" to my previous post where I agreed with what you typed. However, my agreement was exaggerated by my own emotional state over multi-national entities that control, dominate and even cause war, as well as my revulsion for Hitler's (and Germany's) activities. On that we clearly agree. I was too literal in an emotional statement. The post above revised that to get specific on your post's flaws as I saw them. Again, I've enjoyed this exchange. I just don't think we have enough common ground to continue.

Awani
11-22-2014, 08:17 AM
Right now in Congo more people have been murdered since 9/11 than all deaths in WWII."

Yes this is incorrect, the correct statement is: In the last 15 years more people have been murdered in Congo than in the WWII concentration camps (if the 6-7 million figure is correct). Daily people/media whine about the horrors of the concentration camps, but not a word about Congo.

:cool:

Awani
11-22-2014, 08:36 AM
One problem is, I believe, that you discount the participation of [virtually any] "average citizen" in this debacle we call human society ... clearly blaming them.

What? No, the blame can only be put on the self.


Then your ancestors ... even your parents ... are utterly irrelevant.

Yes and no, depends on what you are talking about.


It confuses me as to why you refuse to discuss even your country of origin ... despite your elusive assertion that you have no such thing. We all do.

That implies some level of shame.

Certainly not, but my country of origin is my bed and Earth is my home.


Your culture/country of origin is rudimentary in the formation of your value system, your basis of morality, your social dynamic, your interpersonal and family dynamic, even your life skill set. No one can disassociate from their origins, no matter how repugnant they may consider them.

In a sense, but generations young today are not the same as those young a few decades ago. Thanks to the Internet and cheap airline travel the world (and cultures) are not so distant as they used to be. Whether people like it or not the One World concept will be a reality... if we don't get tricked into murdering each other first.


By this, I'm reading possibly Germany, or something in proximity. Dutch is another. Very close historic ties. One of my family names is German, "von Holle," meaning "from Holland."

No.


And keep in mind that none of these things are "personal attacks." They are merely observations based on your responses and the demeanor you project through them. Yes, it's true that I'm challenging you, possibly even definable as provocation, but not personally and merely on an intellectual/philosophical level.

What you don't understand is that this debate can go forward without including me on a personal level. It is totally irrelevant, unless you are trying to be some digital shrink... which I certainly do not need.


...the above are clearly statements of someone who leans towards revisionist history... literally meaning they are willing to avoid the cold, hard, indisputable, evidentiary (meaning backed by hard evidence) facts of that history.

Ha ha ha... all documented history suffers from revisionism.


Here, not only do you clearly state revisionist history ... "No, Germany didn't start it and conquer Europe," ... and ... "No, Japan had nothing to do with conquering Manchuria, the Pacific or Southern Pacific or the Philippines," ... it was all the Americans ... all of it ... every shot fired ... every death ... the Americans... but you also contradict this statement by accusing corporations and a multi-national power influence.

US government + Big Corp. = same thing

Again I say "USA (or US government to be exact) is the cause of war not the cure of war... it has always been so." If historical facts are important to you then this statement should be easily understood.

And I am not saying US is the cause of all war... clearly I am referring to wars the US have been involved in. Come on... no need to spell everything out?

At the same time you have managed to, in the same post, write this three times:


And keep in mind that none of these things are "personal attacks."


Not a personal attack, but merely a statement of fact...


Again ... not a personal attack...

This is followed by:


Your personal reality is an utter fantasy disassociated from actual fact-based reality.

Really? Are you talking about my personal reality and discrediting it? Not a personal attack? You cannot discuss anything without inserting other people you know nothing about into your arguments. This is a recurrent theme, and IMO, immature.

Please don't see my last statement as a personal attack.

:cool:

Ghislain
11-22-2014, 11:04 AM
A great thread, even if a little heated.

Much can come from emotional confrontation if we reflect on why the issues affect us the way they do.

Playing devils advocate and as someone outside of the argument/debate I have to agree with Dev DS, it has been a little personal, but I guess that's what happens when a debate gets passionate.

I can see two sides to the loss of the soldiers lives; yes I think they were manipulated on both sides. There is a lot of money to be made from war and no doubt about it in my opinion that was the purpose of war; big business. Now I have to look at what DS is saying, yes it was manipulation, but even in that naivety men and women showed great bravery and sacrificed a lot in very altruistic ways and for that I feel a sense of admiration for those that went before.

Now I have to look at what came next; comradary and a sense of community as the world was rebuilt. Out with the old and in with the new as factories were built with bigger and better machine. Full employment giving some power back to the working man. A sense of pride.


We are overpopulated now, has anyone done the math for where we would be today if 70 years ago the population had been 60 million stronger?

We have culled our population through the ages when plagues and famines haven't done it for us. In China during the time of the warlords the average male life expectancy was 14. Today the boys outnumber the girls by God knows how many and so many remain single, but even so the population is reaching that critical factor.

The UK landmass can support 17m people and we have a population in excess of 60m.

Today, hopefully we can see that war is not the way, but it still goes on...with all the manipulation of the past. What is the solution? I don't know!

Would I fight in a war? I like to think not, but I don't iron out the possibility that I may have to fight for my survival one day.

When rats are placed in a limited space they start to bite one and other. I think that is no different with people. So is war a inevitability of overpopulation. Is there an illuminaty of sorts that fabricate war for our future existence? Maybe. Have we learned any lessons from the past to give us an alternative to war? Maybe 'Logan's Run' had the answer ;)

I may seem a little callous when I say I don't care about those that have died in the past. I can empathise with those that do but if they have not directly affected me then in reality I get on with my life only giving them a small moment in my thoughts. There have been many wars before WWI and WWII and there will be more until we come up with a better solution.

Ghislain

EDIT: Patriotism...another form of manipulation.

Awani
11-22-2014, 01:45 PM
but even in that naivety men and women showed great bravery and sacrificed a lot in very altruistic ways and for that I feel a sense of admiration for those that went before.

Sure, but as always DS is arguing himself since I said no such thing. All I said was that I think Fury (a movie about soldiers) is boring and that I don't care much for soldiers or patriotism in a thread discussing MOVIES!!! In fact not even movies... Interstellar (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4145-Interstellar) to be specific. But like always DS has a knack for hijacking threads so 'this' thread was created discussing patriotism... which kind of was how it all got started... but then even this thread derailed... after DS goes on some "you hate the men and women who died for your freedom"-style of rant... so my advice is to stay away from debates with DS.

From my own experience it is like trying to organize your stamp collection in a hurricane.

But since DS brought up that kind of thinking let me say that, yes, it is true: I don't care one fuck about dead soldiers. When all soldiers are dead war is over. ;)

:cool:

DonSweet
11-22-2014, 08:15 PM
Came on this morning with an 80% intent to delete my post from last night, and not to cover, deny or revise anything, but to pull on the reins of my own emotionality.

As if one couldn't tell, this conversation has been a bit of an emotional crucible for me. Anyone following this will note that I mentioned that I love being challenged. This thread has certainly done that.

I've been looking at my emotional triggers in this conversation this morning ... and ... I've been looking at what contributed to the activation of my "rescuer" self, an aspect of me I've known about for many years. This aspect can be good, but it can also be [personally] detrimental, particularly when activated emotionally. When it is, it's acting non-logically in a sort-of "you've-got-to-be-shitting-me-I've-got-to-fix-this" sense ...

... sort-of like coming across a situation where a woman is the victim of a wife-beater and she says, "But I love him. Besides, he says I was asking for it."

Some things just short-circuit me.

That's when emotions kick in and I try to use logic to work through them. Doesn't always work.

Throughout this thread, I've attempted to maintain an "Alchemical perspective" and keep my observations (at least internally) somewhat related to that, whether it's a transmutation of my own, observing humanity's transmutations, or in facilitating/stimulating it in others. In the end, it's got to make sense to me. It's a common
"obsession" in my life. Despite how something unfolds, however chaotic, painful, disruptive, challenging or seemingly "bad" something appears to me, in the end something about it has to lay on the table where I can look at it and say, "Yeah, that makes sense." It has to be worth the process.

Over the years I've also come to understand the difference between "logical sense" and "emotional sense." They aren't the same thing. They also don't have the same conclusive elements ... the things that generate closure and gratification. Frankly, I'm still working on the differences.

This morning, I've also been looking at what possible "external triggers" were employed. I think we all know that when a discussion becomes emotionally heated, it's a natural defense mechanism for a human being to seek out someone else's "buttons" and push and push in an attempt to deflect what we see/feel are emotional attacks. I think both dev and I were doing that.

Anyway ...

What follows is going to be me examining me, even though I'll be citing my interaction with dev.

And keep in mind, dev, that using your responses in this examination has nothing to do with you.

Honestly, this thread probably never should have been generated. I take a great deal of responsibility for that, although I have little regret. As I've said, I love a challenge. Certain comments were certainly challenging ... "calcination" of a sort. ... turning up a Bunsen under the crucible ... "Let's see what we get."

One of the key reasons this thread probably shouldn't have gone this far is the fact that dev and I are so far apart philosophically that we should probably simply remain civil, with a smile and a wave, but not even begin to discuss much of anything. We're just oil and water. I clearly let myself get pulled into that.

But to put my own cap on this, here's a condensed version of the triggers that got me going and why (yeah ... this extended dissertation is the Reader's Digest version) ...

"I think Fury was boring. I don't care about soldiers or patriotism..."

I've spent many, many hours one-on-one with the people that were there. Actual veterans of WWII. That experience is no book-learned distant historical event, or some movie theme. It is a first person story in which I have heard the inflections of voice and seen the pain of the eyes that witnessed it. I don't think I know, but I actually know why these people did what they did.

They reflect/repeat/espouse something that is repeated over and over in Native American philosophy, which boils down to this:

The world can be a bad, evil, dangerous place. Prepare for that. Be ready for it. Be ready to kill or be killed, because it can happen to you. But never, ever "want" killing or conflict. That's a sickness of the mind. Remember those times when it happened. Never forget. Never forget the horrors of history. Remember every graphic detail of it, and knowing that, do everything you can to keep it from happening again. It never should have happened in the first place, but since it did, never forget.

I'm not originating these words or this philosophy. It's being told to me by people who lived it. Not one single veteran I've ever spoken to, and there have been many in the last ten years, wanted to fight, wanted war, wanted to kill, or thought a single millisecond of the war was right or justified. Every single one of them thought it was wrong, should never have happened, and should never happen again ... without exception ... every single one.

There isn't a single thing about this message that can even remotely be connected to "patriotism." Not one word. It is pure humanism. "Be good to one-another. Get along. Avoid conflict at all costs. I've seen what happens when we don't."

You want anti-war? That is as anti-war as it gets.

Connecting this thread or any of its aspects to patriotism was another trigger for me. There isn't a single aspect of my part in this discussion that has anything to do with patriotism. I found the reference galling and offensive. It was an entirely inside-out and upside-down misunderstanding of everything I was trying to relate.

The vast majority of peace-nicks and anti-war advocates and protestors I've ever heard, read, seen or listened to, miss this point entirely.

No true warrior EVER wants to go to war, and that has nothing to do with flag-waving.

" ... the most annoying thing with Interstellar was the American flag on one of the planets."

Statements like this are made by people who have little understanding for the "theory" of what an American is supposed to be. Due to the fact that it's only theory and not practice, particularly in recent history, particularly internationally, it's easy to see how outsiders get entirely the wrong idea. They see Coca-Cola, McDonalds, Exxon, Blackwater and all the other peripheral extensions of power structure that has absolutely nothing to do with the American people themselves, or the Constitution they are supposed to be living under. Non-Americans are ... sadly ... clueless. Many Americans are ... sadly ... clueless. That's the way the power structure likes it ...

... and that power structure has nothing to do with "America" or its people or their philosophy of life.

I don't have the time, energy or space here to explain how and why I know this to be true. The closest I can come is to suggest that anyone who is curious enough to investigate my statements should research, find and read the "Great Law of the Iroquois" on which the American Constitution was based.

In other words, the international facade that's presented to the world by the actions of factions that now control and manipulate the American government has nothing to do with what America is supposed to be all about. Most Americans that wave the flag for "patriotism" ... in their oblivious ignorance ... has lost sight of this or never had that sight.

I am no patriot.

I am an advocate of peace and freedom.

I do not believe in force, but reason.

Every single veteran (even outside WWII veterans) that I've spoken to that has experienced war or conflict in any way, believes in reason over force.

In other words, dev, Americans hate what you hate about America far more than you could ever hate it ... and many are or were soldiers.

We live it.

We live under the lies and the contradictions. We live the betrayal ... every day.

Another trigger ...

"No one died for me ..."

False.

Just false ... untrue ... incorrect ...

Why?

Because that statement is from your perspective, not theirs.

Having spoken, personally, to people who were present when they died, I can say with the utmost confidence that countless people have given their lives for "future generations."

That's you, dev.

There is no denial of that.

"Well, that was their choice, not mine."

A more than obvious statement.

But saying no one died for you is an insult, possibly of the worst kind. It's not what they were thinking or feeling at the time. You can't deny that. You can't deny them that.

Again, these statements are directed at people who feel as you do, not you specifically.

"Hitler lost so we have the world we have today..."

Sure, there's prejudice, bigotry, mistreatment and suffering. We're an immature species. It's inevitable.

But I submit that your cavalier presentation of Hitler's methodology ... extermination ... is not being practiced at the level it was when he and his kind exercised it. Simply by the numbers, there's been a vast improvement. Far fewer are dying. Rest assured that if he and the Emperor and their ilk had won, the dying would have continued, and every ethnic, social, economic and philosophical group that opposed them would have also been exterminated ... not "treated like second class citizens", but turned to ash. I can't imagine that you'd even attempt to argue or disagree with that. Then again, maybe you would.

In a way, you've [virtually clearly] suggested that Hitler [and his kind] were just fine, they just lost. Maybe things would have been just peachy under Hitler.

Another trigger.

My skull exploded over that one.

"Compared to our "own" leaders Hitler is no worse."

I'll agree if you're talking about Stalin. Fine.

"Hitler lost so we have the world we have today... and gypsies and muslims are treated like second class citizens."

We have mass extermination today? We have ovens to rid ourselves of these pesky nuisances?

"No one can know for sure if the world would have been better with Hitler rule or not."

The remains of my brain matter laying on the floor caught fire with this one.

Really?

REALLY?

Today we have goose-stepping jackboots literally exercising mass murder by the millions under the guise of war? We have scorched-earth blitzkrieg? We have concentration camps housing and exterminating millions? We have slave-to-death labor camps and factories in their tens of thousands?

Everything we have today can be directly apple-to-apple compared to that?

Another trigger.

The comparison is speck of sand to mountain range.

Not even close.

Treating gypsies and Muslims like second class citizens ... or blue collar workers ... or blacks ... or white trash ... or non-Christians ... or indigenous people ...

... is not the same as annihilating them.

Does that make it "good."?

Please don't think I'm stupid. Of course not. But it's a vast improvement over death.

Anyway ... I've got a bunch of time into this and I should wind it down.

Where you and I agree, dev, as I agree with anyone presenting your argument/perspective, is the fact that insidious, truly evil powers completely undeserving of that power, control this thing we call human society. It's literally disgusting ... revolting ... repugnant. Even people who are clueless to the facts feel it, know it in their gut.

I admire you (and anyone like you) ... truly ... for wanting it all to simply vanish, and having the passion to express that desire.

Good.

I can tell you with every confidence ... since I have known many of them, personally ... that the vast majority of people both in uniform and formerly in one feel precisely the same as you do. They simply express it differently.

Throughout this thread, we've both played into something this insidious power structure wants desperately ... for us to bicker and argue amongst ourselves ... while they wield power over us. I acknowledge my part in perpetuating this wholly counter-productive process. I don't "like" that I did it, but I acknowledge it.

A couple of quickies, and I'm done ...

"Age does not enforce an argument ..."

I wasn't citing age, but experience. They aren't the same thing.

"... after my last ayahuasca experience I no longer feel comfortable watching such films."

Sometimes I forget you're part of the "psychedelic crowd." Please excuse my terminology, but that's all I've got.

A good friend of mine of many years, who has been a part of that community for most of his adult life once explained what he thought of the process of using chemicals to find altered or enhanced states of consciousness. He's done it all, including ayahuasca. To preface his comments, he prefers Native ceremony and various forms of meditation to "medication." He put it this way (paraphrasing):

These drugs are fine as a gateway. They break a person free of fixed or subdued consciousness. But they're only a gateway.

I see drugs as making you a bug on the wing of an airplane, the airplane being the drug that flies you over consciousness, allowing you to watch. You're a passenger, and the drug is in control. It's a pretty movie, but it's only a movie. Not only do I want control, I can completely bypass the drug and become the airplane ... not even the pilot. I can get direct access to consciousness without drugs.

His words, not mine.

Overall, my apologies if I got too personal. I just can't agree with a huge swath of your perspective ... but it's not the perspective about evil powers. I think it's more your suggested method ...

"Make it vanish. Today. Now. Immediately. It's bad and it makes no sense, so make it all go away. It's going to happen anyway, so just make it so ... now."

Things don't work that way. Never have. Never will. It takes time and it happens in increments. We're in the middle of that. The long view is that it actually is happening, it's just hard to see when you're looking at it all through a microscope, which I tend to think many people do. If my talk here has been taken to mean I think you and only you do that, I apologize. I think you (and people like you) are wrong about several things, and I think you are right about several things. But that doesn't mean I think I'm right about "everything." That's why I explore, and that's why I love to be challenged, and that's why I freely, happily admit to being wrong.

Learning I was wrong helps me to do it right next time ... almost defining the Alchemical process.

That's all any of this has ever been.

Seek joy.

Awani
11-22-2014, 11:28 PM
I've spent many, many hours one-on-one with the people that were there.

I've lived in America. I've met veterans, and I even know people that are in an American war right now. In the army. I know families of veterans as well as children of veterans. My family was in the concentration camps. I know people part of the Nazi-resistance... I have known people who still to this day wish the Third Reich to rise again. I usually don't express a view if I don't have some degree of direct experience... and when I don't I usually say so.

I still agree to disagree.

One important point. A warrior and a soldier are two very different things in my opinion. A warrior is, IMO, a intelligent person, knowledgeable with the tricks of nature, skilled in thinking, skilled in loving and most importantly can hold integrity.

A soldiers is a robot following orders.

There is 1 warrior for every 100 000 soldiers (if I had to make a guess).


" ... the most annoying thing with Interstellar was the American flag on one of the planets."

Interstellar was written and directed by a Brit and scored by a German. The American flag are for marketing/funding reasons... as well as because NASA is American. Oh well, it wasn't a necessary thing to have in the film... it would have worked fine without it. No biggie.


"No one died for me ..." False. Just false ... untrue ... incorrect ... Why? Because that statement is from your perspective, not theirs.

Yes, my perspective.

But just for arguments sake if Hitler would have won I would still be here. Because my grandparents and my parents were not Hitler's enemies. But it's silly to speculate. We can't know really.

Still rocket science, the atom bomb, computers and other things would not have come to pass (perhaps) without Hitler. War is the mother of all invention.

But since you claim your direct experience with veterans is important in order to form your opinions, then what direct experience do you have to what I called "second class citizens of today"? You claim that they have it better now than in Hitler's heyday. Some, sure... all? Certainly not. In the EU we have children living in the sewers, living in shit, selling their bodies, sniffing glue... if you have seen these children, seen their eyes... the eyes do not differ that much from the eyes I've seen in those holocaust documentaries. Suffering is relative.


"No one can know for sure if the world would have been better with Hitler rule or not."

No one can know, unless you have an interdimensional teleportation machine (or something like that). How can you know? Perhaps not better for some, better for others. Just as the world today are better for jews... not so good for gypsies. For example. Relative.


Treating gypsies and Muslims like second class citizens ... or blue collar workers ... or blacks ... or white trash ... or non-Christians ... or indigenous people ... is not the same as annihilating them.

Annihilation can be done in many ways... why make the same mistake twice. There are far more effective ways to get rid of undesirables than using concentration camps.

Funny story... when I visited Auswitch there was a sign that said something like: You are not allowed NOT to believe what we tell you about this place!

I wasn't suspicious before I went, more so after I had been there. I am not saying it did not happen... I'm just saying if I can't have a direct experience why have an opinion about it? Why trust hearsay. No one really know fuck all. Most people don't even know what they themselves have experienced.


Sometimes I forget you're part of the "psychedelic crowd..

As for the comments on psychedelics... well it is what it is... and if it is not what it isn't, then it isn't.

:cool:

Awani
11-22-2014, 11:34 PM
Where you and I agree, dev, as I agree with anyone presenting your argument/perspective, is the fact that insidious, truly evil powers completely undeserving of that power, control this thing we call human society. It's literally disgusting ... revolting ... repugnant. Even people who are clueless to the facts feel it, know it in their gut.

Not sure we agree... yes I agree that it is negative... but I see it more as childish... and I do not believe in evil powers... they are immature powers... and if I don't perceive their power they have none over me. I am aware it might sound Messianic, insane... it might sound immature... but honestly my life is my world... my experience my own rendering... the world is because it is what I deserve/wish... until I manage to deserve/wish something else... and this works...

My world is all for me and for whomever I choose to include. I have the power. I have no fear. No one can harm me. No one can hurt me.

As you might know light does not have a shadow. And in shadows you can find light.

I'm not perfect, but this is the state of mind I prefer and as long as I can see the benefits I will keep at it. Jesus was right.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." - [KJV: John 8:32]

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/funshirts-why-so-serious_zpsc319ccb5.jpg (https://disneyland.disney.go.com)

:cool:

DonSweet
11-23-2014, 12:00 AM
**smile**



**wave**