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Ghislain
12-27-2014, 02:13 PM
This is a must see documentary


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHRD4C-Bk-4

Ghislain

Awani
12-27-2014, 02:54 PM
Almost everything we buy is made in China under these types of conditions. That is why China is becoming so rich. There is nothing more profitable than real slavery. But to be fair... the workers do have a choice, but the 'dream' is too alluring I guess...

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/Darkly-Satirical-Paintings-05-634x435_zps5a3c6e5b.jpg

:cool:

Andro
12-27-2014, 03:16 PM
Apple isn't doing anything that other mega-corporations (and even smaller companies) aren't doing as well.

I agree with dev, those who work there do have a choice not to work in such conditions.

As for slavery being 'most profitable', yes, the Roman Empire never 'fell'. It's just continuously morphing throughout the ages...

And let us never forget that slavery requires consent, even if in some cases non-consenting could mean (physical) death.

The New Hampshire motto/slogan says: "Live Free Or Die".

We all die anyway, eventually.

So it's better to live as 'free' as we possibly can, IMO.

And Freedom starts in the Mind, from where it is transmuted into word and deed.

Oh, and one can of course also choose not to buy any of these products.

This would most likely leave us with much less choice for what we have come to perceive as our 'essential comforts'.

Ghislain
12-27-2014, 03:19 PM
I was thinking the same thing Dev...it is not only Apple, but it is Apple who are trying to portray themselves as holier than thou.

We are just as guilty as we turn a blind eye to get goods cheaper than they could possibly be produced; we are not ignorant.

Having said that, I do have an iphone :( However it is an iphone4 as it does what I need.

I guess I'm one of those...


gullible, lazy, greedy, hypocritical, selfish, bigoted, nationalistic arseholes :confused:


Is there an alternative?

Ghislain

Ghislain
12-27-2014, 03:35 PM
It's a catch22 position Androgynus for if the product is not bought then there is no work to produce it.

Maybe we could be prepared to pay what the product should cost if all workers were treated humanely, but I doubt that would go down too well.

I keep hearing people say, "that's the way it is and we can't do anything about it". When I hear the word can't it just makes me want to prove people wrong.

I don't have any answers, but one thing we do have is the internet and we can educate everyone to open their eyes to cause and effect and then maybe slowly things might change. Who knows, Utopia may be around the corner once people stop pretending they are not aware ;)

Ghislain

Ghislain
12-27-2014, 03:45 PM
Here's a thought, what if the owner of a company was not allowed to earn more than triple that of their lowest paid worker; or something like that.

The owner is recompensed for setting up the work and the worker is paid what they are worth.

Ghislain

Andro
12-27-2014, 03:57 PM
gullible, lazy, greedy, hypocritical, selfish, bigoted, nationalistic arseholes :confused:


Is there an alternative?

I would say YES. And it's not 'Utopia'.

(The road to 'Utopia' is paved with concentration camps...)

But I will expand on it on another thread, when I have time.

I also think that, in this particular 'documentary', Apple is not singled out because of its manufacturing practices, but because the false promises/statements it makes about them.

If it were exclusively about manufacturing practices, it would apply to most 'Big Business'...

But Apple is handling its marketing like a religion, as it is shown in the beginning of the film.

Many (but not all) Apple users can get very 'religious' when it comes to their god of choice.

And this is IMO a very important distinction.

Exoteric religions are based on Belief, and Belief directs the flow of the REAL currency, which is not 'money'. The currency is time/life-force and the control thereof.

Those who cannot harvest this currency vertically (which is the vast majority), harvest it horizontally, i.e. from other people who actually give their belief-driven consent.

Just like vampires having to be invited in, but they can 'glamor' you from outside your door to allow them inside and prey on your currency (=time/life).

-----------------------------------------------------------

Andro
12-27-2014, 04:02 PM
Here's a thought, what if the owner of a company was not allowed to earn more than triple that of their lowest paid worker; or something like that.

The owner is recompensed for setting up the work and the worker is paid what they are worth.

Ghislain, IMO this is still 'Horizontal' thinking. Treating effects with effects. Dead end, if you ask me.

We need Vertical solutions. We need to work on/with Cause.

See my previous references on Kozyrev and his concept of 'Vertical Time'. (You can look it up here on the Forum, if so inclined)

Ghislain
12-27-2014, 04:23 PM
Can't work on/with cause if we are in denial of the cause!

Apple made...

$39,000,000,000 Thirty nine billion profit last year.

Apple have...

$155,000,000,000 One hundred and fifty-five billion in the bank.

And

All told Apple are worth $500,000,000,000 Half a trillion.

Now take into consideration...

1. Nearly 1/2 of the world’s population — more than 3 billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day. More than 1.3 billion live in extreme poverty, that's less than $1.25 a day.

2. 1 billion children worldwide are living in poverty. According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty.

3. 870 million people worldwide do not have enough food to eat.

4. More than 1 billion people lack adequate access to clean drinking water and an estimated 400 million of these are children. Because unclean water yields illness, roughly 443 million school days are missed every year.

5. In 2011, 165 million children under the age 5 were stunted (reduced rate of growth and development) due to chronic malnutrition.

6. Preventable diseases like diarrhea and pneumonia take the lives of 2 million children a year who are too poor to afford proper treatment.

7. As of 2011, 19 million children worldwide are not vaccinated.

8. 1/4 of all humans live without electricity — approximately 1.6 billion people.

9. 80% of the world population lives on less than $10 a day.

10. In 1998, the UN estimated that it would take $40 billion annually to offer basic education, clean water and sanitation, reproductive health, and basic health and nutrition to every person in every developing country. That would be about $58 billion today.

11. The World Food Programme says, “The poor are hungry and their hunger traps them in poverty.” Hunger is the number 1 cause of death in the world, killing more than HIV/AIDS, malaria, and tuberculosis combined.

Source:Do Something.org (https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-facts-about-global-poverty)

Further reading: The Hunger Project (http://thp.org/knowledge-center/know-your-world-facts-about-hunger-poverty/)



Apple could almost bring an end to world poverty on their own, and they are just one of the numerous companies in this league, and we haven't mentioned the governments of the world, the banks etc...etc..

Ghislain

Ghislain
12-27-2014, 04:39 PM
I also think that, in this particular 'documentary', Apple is not singled out because of its manufacturing practices, but because the false promises/statements it makes about them.

If it were exclusively about manufacturing practices, it would apply to most 'Big Business'...

-----------------------------------------------------------

I have already agreed that point in my answer to Dev Androgynus.


I was thinking the same thing Dev...it is not only Apple, but it is Apple who are trying to portray themselves as holier than thou.

You are preaching to the choir.

I get your point on the vertical and horizontal, but unfortunately it is not always easy for everyone to avoid the horizontal and therefore we need to protect those from some of the unscrupulous sociopaths at the top of the horizontal that would exploit them.

I know people are fickle and there will be those lazy ones who would ride the system, but one thing at a time :)

Ghislain

Awani
12-27-2014, 04:57 PM
Apple doesn't have as much money as certain oil companies or shadow corporations that we don't even know the name of. Also they don't have that money CASH. That is now how book keeping works. What a company is worth is not the same as what it could spend. Still Apple has a lot of money, and could use it for good... but there are other companies that have even more money than Apple that doesn't want things to improve (as they are making money from poverty/poor regions).

Apple has changed the world as far as tech goes and now the world is smaller/closer than ever before. I think this is good and well worth some suffering slaves... slaves that would have suffered regardless.

I wonder how much money goes to taxes each day in total world-wide?

:cool:

Awani
12-27-2014, 05:01 PM
Here's a thought, what if the owner of a company was not allowed to earn more than triple that of their lowest paid worker; or something like that.

The owner is recompensed for setting up the work and the worker is paid what they are worth.

It is fascism for a government/law to decree what a person is not allowed to earn... bordering on communism IMO. ;)

The lowest paid worker is the lowest paid worker because he/she is the lowest paid worker. You don't see a surgeon cleaning the toilets, or a bus driver doing open-heart surgery.

In any job I've had I've only been the lowest paid worker for a few weeks... those that remain the lowest paid worker indefinetly deserve to be. Soon we will have robots for those jobs.

Edit: there is a big difference between an owner of a corporation and a founder/owner. The latter deserves more than the former, because he/she is a creator.

:cool:

* If the world was 100 % an anarchy world then none of this issues would be a concern. But that is another topic.

Ghislain
12-27-2014, 05:42 PM
It is fascism for a government/law to decree what a person is not allowed to earn... bordering on communism IMO. ;)

I would say it is an answer to a problem, you can still earn more it is just closing the gap between two workers who are both human and have the same needs.


The lowest paid worker is the lowest paid worker because he/she is the lowest paid worker. You don't see a surgeon cleaning the toilets, or a bus driver doing open-heart surgery.

Dev that is like saying " he who laughs last laughs last last" I didn't say a surgeon would be paid the lowest wage or that a bus driver would be doing open heart surgery.




In any job I've had I've only been the lowest paid worker for a few weeks... those that remain the lowest paid worker indefinetly deserve to be. Soon we will have robots for those jobs.

I can agree with that, I am not saying there only has to be two tiers, owner/worker, there can be levels in between. Think how hard a worker will work if his earnings are a reflection of the company profit! ... and the owner can expect triple that.


Edit: there is a big difference between an owner of a corporation and a founder/owner. The latter deserves more than the former, because he/she is a creator.

Well the owner will usually be the creator, but if the creator sells it off that is their prerogative, they can't expect reward from something they have sold...unless there is a royalty agreement. Not sure what you meant :confused:

Also each of us have different qualities, I may be a good toilet cleaner, someone else may be a good creator, we both have 24 hours in our day and the same needs.

Why is communism such a dirty word...it has never been tried.

People have created regimes they have called communism...pah!

I climb into my bed at night, can I call myself a climber?



* If the world was 100 % an anarchy world then none of this issues would be a concern. But that is another topic.

:) still got to get my head around that.

Ghislain

Edit: The company would still pay tax, but that would be at source on the earnings of the company before the wages are paid out; company earns more all earn more.

Company get a little from tax fiddles, all get a little from tax fiddles :)

Hospital workers would be paid on their success rate ;)

Awani
12-27-2014, 06:09 PM
Think how hard a worker will work if his earnings are a reflection of the company profit!

The problem, in the West, are taxes... in the not-Western world the problem is human rights more than the salary.

The problem with communism is that it says everyone is the same and should therefore 'have' the same, but we are not the same. Everyone should have the same opportunities, but everyone does not deserve the same 'things'/'wealth'. That is why anarchy is so great because it requires responsibility over the self.

:cool:

Ghislain
12-27-2014, 07:05 PM
The problem, in the West, are taxes... in the not-Western world the problem is human rights more than the salary.

I agree with the human rights issue, but a close second comes being left alone by the west...especially big western corporate predators.



The problem with communism is that it says everyone is the same and should therefore 'have' the same, but we are not the same. Everyone should have the same opportunities, but everyone does not deserve the same 'things'/'wealth'. That is why anarchy is so great because it requires responsibility over the self.


I didn't say everyone gets the same, just that those using others should get a percentage of what the others get...triple I think it was, but that's just a ballpark figure...open to negotiation :)

I agree everyone should have the same opportunity and they can better themselves if they wish, but not to the detriment of all others.

Give me anarchy any day, then I can just kill all my rivals :) survival of the fittest.

Have we not evolved from that?

E=MC^2 yeh who says so Einstein ...you wanna take that outside ... do ya! :)

There has to be some order.


Ghislain

Edit: I don't think that taxes are a problem...it's who is calculating them and for what reason is the problem. Taxes are an inevitable price any society has to pay so that all the jobs no one wants to volunteer for are covered.
The rest is left to charity ;)

NHS UK Broken ankle £0.0
USA private health Broken ankle $58,000

Awani
12-27-2014, 09:32 PM
Give me anarchy any day, then I can just kill all my rivals :) survival of the fittest.

Not to murder people is an inherent natural law only broken if you are either a psychopath (in which case it doesn't matter if it is illegal or not), or if you are cornered and fighting for your survival (in which case it also doesn't matter if it is legal).


I don't think that taxes are a problem...

The fact that you can go to the hospital for free does not give taxation its rights. Hospital costs are about 5-10 % of the total amount of taxes taken. In Sweden people donate, above taxation, the same amount of money that would cover the costs of all hospitals in the country. In other words hospitals could be funded by voluntary donations... just in the same way people voluntarily donate millions of dollars every day already.

Taxes should be voluntary, and if not it is fascist. And since the dawn of time it has always been imposed by a dictator by heir or vote.

"And it shall come to pass in the increase, that ye shall give the fifth part unto Pharaoh, and four parts shall be your own, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for them of your households, and for food for your little ones." - Genesis 47:24 [KJV]

Apple hardly pays any taxes, and why? Because they are rich enough to escape the claws of the Pharaohs.

For further taxation debate let's go here: Distill your taxes (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1932-Distill-your-taxes)

:cool:

Ghislain
12-28-2014, 12:47 AM
Not to murder people is an inherent natural law only broken if you are either a psychopath (in which case it doesn't matter if it is illegal or not), or if you are cornered and fighting for your survival (in which case it also doesn't matter if it is legal).

My point exactly, both cases are possible.


The fact that you can go to the hospital for free does not give taxation its rights.

I'm sure there are a lot of poor people in America who may disagree with that Dev.


In Sweden people donate, above taxation, the same amount of money that would cover the costs of all hospitals in the country.

Obviously Swedish tax isn't high enough, or the government is wasting your taxes, else why would people need to donate so much? Not to knock those who donate, but again this proves my point. There are people sitting on billions and the average Joe in the street has to donate what little they earn to help the third world :confused:


In other words hospitals could be funded by voluntary donations... just in the same way people voluntarily donate millions of dollars every day already.

And if donating goes out of fashion? " I'm sorry Mr. Jones we have the lung you need but we are waiting for someone to donate enough to hire the surgeon to put it in"

Read post 9 again dev...people already donate and it's not working.

Apple have $150 billion in the bank...when are they going to donate some of that? They don't even care about their workers committing suicide...what makes you think they are going to care about anything else? Sorry Apple just using you as an example.

Most rich people and companies usually make donations as a tax write off; it's not from the heart. I know there are exceptions...


Taxes should be voluntary, and if not it is fascist. And since the dawn of time it has always been imposed by a dictator by heir or vote.

Taxes are voluntary, if you only take minimum wage you won't pay any.


"And it shall come to pass in the increase, that ye shall give the fifth part unto Pharaoh, and four parts shall be your own, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for them of your households, and for food for your little ones." - Genesis 47:24 [KJV]
A community needs infrastructure which some may be reluctant to donate to. If one wants to build a community then it is going to cost.

If I go out for a drink in a crowd we usually have a whip round where everybody puts in the same amount of money into a kitty and then we use that to buy all the drinks...it stops some of the tight bastards drinking on others all night. For a similar reason we have tax.


Apple hardly pays any taxes, and why? Because they are rich enough to escape the claws of the Pharaohs.

No, it's because they are heartless arseholes who think money is more important than life, the environment and the community. Maybe if they just paid in tax what they pay their lawyers and accountants to dodge it that might be something.


I get peoples anger at taxes, but they are barking up the wrong tree, it's not the process of taxation that's the demon here it's the corrupt arseholes collecting it, wasting it, and using it to prop up their corporate buddies. It's like the person holding the kitty when the night is over and instead of sharing it back out they keep what is left for their taxi home and a bite to eat on the way...I know these people lol

Again I would like to quote Richard Buckminster "Bucky" Fuller (1895 – 1983)


"We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living.

It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors.

The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living."

Bucky obviously didn't know people...he really thought that they might give some of their booty, that in some cases is more than they could spend in a lifetime, altruistically to a good cause...awww bless him.

Ghislain

Awani
12-28-2014, 01:15 AM
My point exactly, both cases are possible.

Don't understand? My point is that it doesn't matter if it is the law not to kill. Same rules apply if it is against the law or not.


Obviously Swedish tax isn't high enough, or the government is wasting your taxes, else why would people need to donate so much?

This is incorrect. All western countries donate a lot of money. My point is that the important things in society would still be funded if we have voluntary taxation. Saying that it won't is the same as saying: if we don't force you to care about other people you won't. That is bullshit.


And if donating goes out of fashion?

This is an ever increasing trend since Biblical times. It will not go out of fashion in the foreseeable future.


People already donate and it's not working.

It is... you are not on the receiving end so you don't notice it.


Taxes are voluntary, if you only take minimum wage you won't pay any.

That is not voluntary. That is economic terrorism.


A community needs infrastructure which some may be reluctant to donate to. If one wants to build a community then it is going to cost.

Then the people who want to use that community can pay for it, and the people who don't want to participate don't have to.


If I go out for a drink in a crowd we usually have a whip round where everybody puts in the same amount of money into a kitty and then we use that to buy all the drinks...it stops some of the tight bastards drinking on others all night. For a similar reason we have tax.

Why should the asshole minority control the generous majority? No system is full proof... there will always be assholes... but the system should be beneficial to the non-assholes and not geared at stopping the assholes while stomping all over the non-assholes.


I get peoples anger at taxes, but they are barking up the wrong tree, it's not the process of taxation that's the demon here it's the corrupt arseholes collecting it, wasting it, and using it to prop up their corporate buddies.

Well my point is that taxation, and the collection and use of taxation, are the same scam. It is a thousand year old hustle that is becoming more slick by each passing decade. You can't change such a system. It is a membership you have to pay, a membership you cannot resign from, a membership you are signed up for at birth... by God you even pay membership fees, in some cases/countries, on whatever money you leave behind.

It can never be rectified. It is tainted from the start. It is like the Vatican. It can never be purified. The CORE idea of taxation is that SOMEONE other than YOU decide that YOU have to give SOMEONE ELSE whatever value you have... and if you DO NOT you will be grabbed by henchmen... and if you resist to be grabbed they have THE RIGHT to shoot you... and you will be locked up. For what? For not wanting whatever you have to be stolen by someone else that you are in contract with? A contract you have never seen, never signed and can never get out of?

Taxation is the same as laws against psychedelics... it is a clear violation of OUR inherent human rights.

Make taxation voluntary... those who pay can take part, those who don't can not. It's simple.


No, it's because they are heartless arseholes who think money is more important than life, the environment and the community.

Probably, not defending Apple... I just prefer their Earth raping products over other Earth raping product makers. But I do think that if taxation was eliminated it would be harder for corporations like Apple to do what they do. Regardless none of this matters...

There is nothing wrong with the world. Everything is happening exactly according to plan... you'll see... Go China!

:cool:

Ghislain
12-28-2014, 03:03 AM
I'll have to agree to disagree with you Dev.


you'll see... Go China!

:)

Watched that video on the link you gave on American tax deception...weird it seems true, that would open up a whole can of worms. Sent the link to my nieces husband to look at, he's a lawyer. Hope he looks at it, was rather long and full of legalese.

Wonder if the UK has such a loophole...would love some tax back :)

Ghislain

Edit: just one point about murder...big business murders people today and get away with it, think what they would do if there was no law to stop them at all?

Two points I forgot the other. There is more than enough money to bring an end to poverty today, why are these generous people who are going to donate when taxes end not donating it now?

Awani
12-28-2014, 04:03 PM
The problem is not money, it's rights... and resolve by individuals... by allowing to be enslaved. Poor people in Africa does not need money, they need rights.

I'm saying that if tax funded hospitals ended normal people would donate to donation funded hospitals.

The problem is the status quo; the system. You can't fix/mend something that was broken from the start. There is only four options in my opinion:

1. world wide consensus that we should start again from scratch
2. disaster/destruction so less people can start again from scratch
3. slow evolutionary purification of the human spirit, expelling all assholes into extinction
4. exodus into space

:cool:

Ghislain
12-28-2014, 04:18 PM
If taxes were used properly they would not be a problem. Fight the stupid things the government use those taxes for. Let them know you're watching them. With the internet there are a lot of ways to blow the whistle on the arseholes these days.

I don't see where taxes and rights go hand in hand, properly managed taxes makes sense for everyone. You can't have 7 billion people all living to a different set of rules it would be chaos.

Voluntary funded health care would not be enough Dev...healthcare alone takes billions to fund.


Only 50 years ago, health care was a luxury not everyone could afford.

Life in Britain in the 30s and 40s was tough. Every year, thousands died of infectious
diseases like pneumonia, meningitis, tuberculosis, diphtheria, and polio.

Infant mortality - deaths of children before their first birthday - was around one in 20,
and there was little the piecemeal healthcare system of the day could do to improve
matters.

Against such a background, it is difficult to overstate the impact of the introduction of
the National Health Service (NHS). Although medical science was still at a basic stage,
the NHS for the first time provided decent healthcare for all - and, at a stroke,
transformed the lives of millions.

Source: The NHS: 'One of the greatest achievements in history' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/nhs_at_50/special_report/123511.stm)


Where were the donors then? The majority of people are, if not greedy, complacent.

Ghislain

Edit: How would you feel if you donated to the health service and your neighbour didn't, but he earned plenty and was adamant he wouldn't donate and then he gets sick and is treated by the health service you fund?

Awani
12-28-2014, 04:26 PM
healthcare alone takes billions to fund.

Not true. Healthcare is orchestrated by Big Pharma! The healthcare I want funded by donations are things like heart transplants and a broken legs. About 75 % of all hospital visits could be avoided using simple healing techniques and proper diet. Sugar and wheat are the root cause of most modern ailments.

Maybe the NHS did humanity a diservice. The UK is a bit over-crowded.

Again you cannot properly manage taxes. You speak of greedy people that won't donate? Well it is those same greedy people that you want to manage billions of taxes without greed?

:cool:

Ghislain
12-28-2014, 04:49 PM
NHS net expenditure (resource plus capital, minus depreciation) has increased from
£64.173 billion in 2003/04 to £109.721bn in 2013/14. Planned expenditure for
2014/15 is £113.035bn.

That's a lot of pennies. Remember that is Pounds Sterling which equates to...

$176.33bn

In 2013 the NHS employed 147,087 doctors, 371,777 qualified nursing staff, 154,109 qualified scientific, therapeutic and technical staff and 36,360 managers.

Source: NHS Confederation ( http://www.nhsconfed.org/resources/key-statistics-on-the-nhs)

That is one manager for every 18.5 staff...maybe a bit over managed.

Ghislain

Edit:
Again you cannot properly manage taxes. You speak of greedy people that won't donate? Well it is those same greedy people that you want to manage billions of taxes without greed?

No it is those that are creating the problem now, but the lazy complacent populace, of which I am one, bend over and take it up the arse. It is that which needs changing, the mismanagement of the people's money.

The tax system is not the demon it is those orchestrating it that are. Those same people will be orchestrating the donations you propose if they are not weeded out, or measures put in place that don't allow corruption.

Ghislain
12-28-2014, 05:11 PM
About 75 % of all hospital visits could be avoided using simple healing techniques and proper diet. Sugar and wheat are the root cause of most modern ailments.

That's to do with education, just because hospitals would be funded by donations doesn't mean that would change. If you want more alternative medicines in the public health sector then you need to lobby the government. With the internet that is easy to do and is being done every day now.


Maybe the NHS did humanity a diservice. The UK is a bit over-crowded.

I see that as a problem too, but using that same reckoning we are saying that those dying in the third world is not a problem it is just natural selection balancing the population.

Ghislain

Awani
12-28-2014, 05:20 PM
It is not easy. In many countries alternative medicine is illegal. Why would that change when billions are made from tax money that goes to shitty medicine? The core issue in society is the fact that we are forced to pay... have you seen the Godfather... the people that have to pay the Mafia are us and the governments of the world is the Mafia, and just like the Mafia they [the governments] say they will use the money (tax) as protection money.

Are you going to tell the Mafia to better spend the money you give them? That is a fools dream. Why would they listen? They don't. They never will.

Apple and similar corporations and governments are the same... the main difference is that Apple provides a good product... the governments don't. In both cases we empower them, by either buying their products or voting for their representatives.

:cool:

Ghislain
12-28-2014, 06:12 PM
I don't usually vote, but next election I am going to vote green.

When you put together a petition with x amount of signatures the issue has to be discussed in parliament. They may do nothing about it but it brings it into public focus.

Recently a couple of petitions have been successful. Have to wait and see how successful this is.

Ghislain

Awani
12-28-2014, 06:53 PM
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/dontvote_zps0a602a2a.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/images_zps4dffda49.jpeg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/votefornobody-faceless_zpsfdbb280d.jpg


When you put together a petition with x amount of signatures the issue has to be discussed in parliament.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/Monkey-Parliament-by-Banksy_zps181a083f.jpg

:cool:

Ghislain
12-28-2014, 07:55 PM
or do nothing...

It was my local MP who got me housed. All people are not the same, although I have to admit that once in the system too long they do all seem to morph into a similar being.

Dev you work with people, you must realise there are many that would be more than useless if they didn't have rules to follow.

Ghislain

Edit: I would love to hear your alternative in detail.

Ghislain
12-28-2014, 08:06 PM
If you have the time, as it is over two hours long, there are some really interesting points in this debate.

Note it is an MP who is bringing this to light, so not all bad.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBSlSUIT-KM

I did note that for such an important issue members were a bit short on the ground.

Mind you 98% probably would not have understood it.

Ghislain

Ghislain
12-28-2014, 09:37 PM
Another interesting thing I just found...

Personal Tax Summaries (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/personal-tax-summaries-seven-things-to-know)

This makes the tax we pay more transparent in respect of where it goes.

Ghislain

Awani
12-28-2014, 10:36 PM
It was my local MP who got me housed.

Oh local government is a bit different. On that level things might actually work. I am speaking about national governance.

RE: the personal tax summary... we have a similar thing where I live and it does not do any good... besides numbers are easily fixed or are relative.


you must realise there are many that would be more than useless if they didn't have rules to follow.

Yes, but they follow them voluntarily. They don't have to.


I would love to hear your alternative in detail.

It is pretty simple. Allow the voluntary inclusion or exclusion of the self into any system (government, taxation etc). Those who want to play Monopoly can, those that want to play Hide and Seek can. But this is not a realistic alternative. So instead I propose stealth... abide by the rules, find loop holes, occasionally break the law if necessary and weasel and snake your way through the game of snake and ladders.

:cool:

Ghislain
12-28-2014, 10:56 PM
Allow the voluntary inclusion or exclusion of the self into any system (government, taxation etc)

Are you suggesting that we have two systems?

I'll use health care for simplicity, but this would apply to many other things such as roads, household and industrial waste management, gas & electricity supply, public transport, water...etc...etc...

Would you go to your hospital funded by voluntary donations and I would go to my hospital funded by the state and taxation?

Would someone who opted out and did not donate to health care be allowed to use either?

If someone was mugging you in the street would the state policeman ask to see a membership card before getting involved?

Which ambulances would attend an accident?

If someone opted out and did not voluntarily donate could their children still attend your schools?



I propose stealth... abide by the rules, find loop holes, occasionally break the law if necessary and weasel and snake your way through the game of snake and ladders.

Could I not opt out and do the same in the voluntary system?


Ghislain

Edit: Would it not be better to find those loop holes and get them closed so people are not eking away the revenue that should be going to fund our services.
Would it not be better to watch those who we give our powers to, to make sure they are not lured into corruption.

Awani
12-29-2014, 01:11 AM
People who want A live in area A and people who want B live in area B.

But if you opt out and get help by a doctor then they send a bill afterwards. As far as your police example... well fuck to police!!!

You know you make it sound more complicated than it is. People should be allowed to do what they want as long as they don't hurt anyone else. Nothing should be forced. That is it. All the details will work themselves out naturally.

When the revolution happened in Cairo there were no police or hospitals, but people organized this on their own... naturally... we don't need governments to hold our hands. The parental generations are coming to an end. And those that need their hands held... the strong will hold their hands... or they will die out... either way the current parental world... just...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKxr2PJ06Y4

:cool:

Ghislain
12-29-2014, 09:47 AM
I think you may find that any new order will morph back into what we have today or something similar...Lord of The Flies.

So are you in favour of private health care...always available to those that can afford it?

Did you watch the debate in post 29? It makes you wonder what money actually is. It used to be a token for work done, but not any more.

Ghislain

Edit:
People who want A live in area A and people who want B live in area B.

See Separatism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatism)

There are many different people wanting many different things...who's land would we take to create all these pockets of separate communities? East (Bangladesh) and West Pakistan and India, Hindu vs Muslim for example.

Israel, Jew vs Palestinian

Does it work?

Andro
12-29-2014, 03:44 PM
It makes you wonder what money actually is. It used to be a token for work done, but not any more.

I disagree. I think it used to be an means of standardizing Value. Or at least it was intended to be perceived as such...

'A token for work done' is worker bee/employee mentality, IMO, and I find this definition very limiting.

Also, IMSO, money isn't, nor has it ever been, the 'real' currency.


Belief/Mentality directs the flow of the REAL currency, which is not 'money'. The currency is Time/Life-Force and the control thereof.

Those who cannot harvest this currency vertically (which is the vast majority), harvest it horizontally, i.e. from other people who actually give their belief/mentality-driven consent.

Ghislain
12-29-2014, 04:07 PM
UK Spending Alone. Source: UK Public Revenue (http://www.ukpublicrevenue.co.uk/)

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/ukgs_line.php?title=&year=2013_2016&sname=&units=b&bar=1&stack=1&size=t&col=c&spending0=1575.7_1641_1720.4_1789.1

Predicted UK Revenue 2015. Source: UK Public Revenue ( http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2013_2017UKb_XXc1li111tcn_)



Total Direct Revenue
£648.1 bln
Income and Capital Taxes
£216.7 bln
National Insurance
£109.1 bln
Indirect Taxes
£270.0 bln
Business and Other Revenue
£46.7 bln


So the outgoings predicted for 2015 are £1.75 Trillion

The revenue predicted for 2015 are £1.02 Trillion

Already a shortfall of £0.73 Trillion or £730 Billion

If we assume those outgoings with a population of 60 million that equates to £29,167 per head.

I know it doesn't seem to make sense as a majority of the population don't work, but I just quickly browsed the net to get these figures and I'm not a statistician.

Now...Charity Worldwide. Source: Charity Navigator (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=content.view&cpid=42#.VKFtdfpDE8)



Total giving to charitable organizations was $335.17 billion in 2013 (about 2% of GDP). This is an increase of 4.4% from 2012. Although this is the fourth straight year that giving has increased, it is still not at the pre-recession level of $349.5 billion seen in 2007.

As in previous years, the majority of that giving came from individuals. Specifically, individuals gave roughly $240.6 billion (72%) representing a 4.2% increase over 2012. And it was the additional $9.69 billion in gifts made by individuals that was the main reason overall giving is up in 2013.

Giving by bequest was $27.73 billion (up 8.7%), foundations gave $48.96 billion (up 5.7%), and corporations donated $17.88 billion (down 1.9%).

Corporate giving accounts for just 5% of the total giving in 2013. And it was down primarily because of the slow growth in corporate pre-tax profits.

Five types of charities have reached or surpassed all-time high giving levels since the recession ended in mid-2009. ◦ Giving to Education charities was up 8.9% to $52.07 billion.

◦ Donations to Human Services charities were up 2.2% to $41.51 billion.
◦ Foundations saw an increase of 15.5% to $35.74 billion.
◦ Health charities experienced an increase of 6% to $31.86 billion.
◦ Charities that focus on the Environment / Animals saw an increase of 7.5% to $9.72 billion.

Giving to International charities slowed due to fewer overseas disasters.

Historically, Religious groups have received the largest share of charitable donations. While this was still true in 2013, the percentage dropped by 2% from 2012 making this the fifth year in a row it was down or flat. Even with the 0.2% decrease in donations this year, 31% of all donations ($105.53 billion) went to Religious organizations. Much of these contributions can be attributed to people giving to their local place of worship.
The next largest sector was Education with 16% of all donations.


Now if we take charity at its height in 2007 - £349.5 Billion - you can see that this doesn't even pay the shortfall in the UK spending for 2015.

It is one thing to ask a few people to donate a small sum now and then, but trying to get all of them to donate enough to run any kind of system IMO would be impossible.

Note that I compared charity world wide to only the UK, which has approx' 60m people. Now think about the States with 0.3bn, China with 1.4bn, India with 1.2bn...etc. Source: Worldometers (http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/)

Ghislain

Awani
12-29-2014, 04:22 PM
You can't fix old world problems with old world solutions.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/10885059_827454567325011_8464899576857577242_n_zps 27df7b84.jpg

The numbers are incorrect.

1. the governments spends more than it has to because they are inefficient (and doing dodgy deals)
2. people would donate more if they did not have to pay tax, the majority of people are generous people

By the way taxation in the United Kingdom earned Her Majesty's £660 billion pounds last year... and the Royals DO pay tax voluntarily. Before any changes are made in society there is one very important thing that needs to happen first.

The Royals shall be given the chance to quietly go away or...

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/article-1258613-04D8E2080000044D-824_224x369_zps174eb037.jpg

:cool:

Awani
12-29-2014, 04:25 PM
It used to be a token for work done, but not any more.

Money is a promissory note, a promise made by a bank, controlled by a government, that in turn is nothing but an elected institution that indulges in governance, which is the act, manner or function of governing and controlling.

:cool:

Andro
12-29-2014, 05:02 PM
I think money used to be a means of standardizing Value. Or at least it was intended to be perceived as such...


Money is a promissory note, a promise made by a bank...

At least in the past it was backed up by something perceived/agreed as Value (gold, silver, grains, etc)

It isn't anymore.

We can add the 'promise to pay' on past bank-notes to the list of broken promises... It's not just Apple :)

__________________________________________

And yes, a paradigm shift cannot occur via means originating from the very same paradigm we want to change.

We can continue talking about politics/petitioning/movements/etc... Will do no good IMO.

The Universe is a MENTAL creation, a Mind-Dream.

Change begins in UP-Grading our Minds/Mentality.

Horizontal solutions are not really solutions. It takes a Spirit to act on a Body and (re)solve it.

It will never work treating/solving body with body or effect with effect.

The Higher must imbibe the Lower and evolve it to the next level of this, our Collective Hallucination :)

First and foremost:

Free your MIND, and you Ass will follow :p

-------------------------------------------------------------

Ghislain
12-29-2014, 05:05 PM
I disagree. I think it used to be an means of standardizing Value. Or at least it was intended to be perceived as such...


What it was meant to be can always be debated, but what it should be is a token for work done.



'A token for work done' is worker bee/employee mentality, IMO, and I find this definition very limiting.


We are not bees and the limiting effect is the inability to use others to accumulate more wealth than one could spend in a lifetime to the detriment of all others.



Also, IMSO, money isn't, nor has it ever been, the 'real' currency.


I have to agree with that, just look at the warlords of old China for example...people were currency...the bigger army the more chance of winning.


It's time to rid the world of users and start caring for each other; possibly with a decreased population...there is plenty for all in this garden we call the world.

When I say decreased I mean by birth control not genocide. :)

Ghislain

Ghislain
12-29-2014, 07:51 PM
In the present system we here are supposed to be ruled by an elected government, but we all know that is not true, we are ruled by corporations with too much money. Perhaps that is why it doesn't appear to work.


And yes, a paradigm shift cannot occur via means originating from the very same paradigm we want to change.

Why would we need a paradigm shift? I am quite happy with the system we have, just not the corruption it contains and the monetarist policy it conforms to. Look at a wild rose and a hybrid rose...we didn't have to destroy the rose to produce a better one just improve on the one we had.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=901

and before anyone proposes they like the first better tell me which you would draw if asked to draw a rose and which you would present to someone on a special occasion? :p

We work the best hours of our day when in fact we should be walking in the garden taking in its beauty, but that will never happen for how would the big corporations amass all the surplus money they have, giving them all that power that was not meant for them?


1. the governments spends more than it has to because they are inefficient (and doing dodgy deals)
2. people would donate more if they did not have to pay tax, the majority of people are generous people.

I don't disagree with statement 1. and I disagree with statement 2., but each one is only opinion. We need the facts to make changes; who is doing the dodgy deals and how can we make things more efficient?

If we look at figures, yes people donate to charity, but how much and how often. I have given to charities, but not nearly enough. I wish I had the faith you have in human nature Dev. I do agree people would probably donate more if they didn't pay tax, but they would probably donate more if they got fairer wages too.

I recently got the company I work for to throw out contractors doing work we could do. This work needed to be done on overtime, which everyone agreed to. Overtime is voluntary and people are not committing to what was proposed. The next time the company bring in contractors I will have no argument. The reason we don't want contractors is that they are more expensive and they are being trained to do our jobs...so it was an issue of workers job security. People don't see further than their nose. We have been taken over by a French firm recently 7th Dec. They are already breaking up the company having sent a whole department to contractors on zero hour contracts. They are 70% owned by the French government. Watch this space :)

Note that in the industry for which I work companies are fined for not meeting targets...by the company that employs them!!! By farming out this work the French company does not care if the target is met as they will fine their contractor more than they get fined themselves. So there is a reward for shoddy work...is that progress?

Below is a report on charities by country...i'm sure there is much missing and I am aware there may be bias in the figures, but it shows that giving, in the way of money and labour, is on the increase, but that is perhaps due to a rise in the economy after such a big crash; but maybe not.

Charities Aid Foundation (CAF) (https://www.cafonline.org/media-office/press-releases/2013/world-giving-index-2013.aspx)

All changes need to be done on a world stage and the best tool for that at present is the internet. 25% of the world population 1.6 billion do not have electricity.

Androgynus I understand where you are coming from and agree that people should explore their spirituality, but at the same time we live in this world where people are unfairly overworked, living in squalor and ill health due to circumstances beyond their control so that others can feel free to explore that spirituality...just because of where they are born. (read Abraham Harold Maslow)

calling me an ass wasn't nice! :(


Free your MIND, and you Ass will follow :p


Money is a promissory note, a promise made by a bank

Yes it says so on our notes..."I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of"...and then whatever value the note has then the signature of the chief cashier, but I've often wondered what they would pay...another note of the same value perhaps lol.


By the way taxation in the United Kingdom earned Her Majesty's £660 billion pounds last year

The Queen received an annual £7.9 million a year from the Civil List between 2001 and 2012. Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finances_of_the_British_Royal_Family)

Where did you get your figure Dev?

Ghislain

Awani
12-29-2014, 09:00 PM
Look at a wild rose and a hybrid rose...we didn't have to destroy the rose to produce a better one just improve on the one we had.

The rose was good from the start. Can't compare.


but they would probably donate more if they got fairer wages too.

Poor people donate more than rich people (generally).


The Queen received an annual £7.9 million a year from the Civil List between 2001 and 2012.

I think mine was total earnings inclusive of taxes... regardless 8 million pounds a year is a lot of money. What does it cost to visit Buckingham Palace? £20.50... fucked up!

:cool:

Ghislain
12-29-2014, 09:20 PM
I didn't say the wild rose wasn't pretty but the hybrid one is prettier.

Yes I know poor people donate more than the rich...I've experienced the poor's generosity and been shunned by the better off.

I think she has to pay all her staff and other outgoings out of that...I wouldn't want a trampy queen representing the UK ;)

I'm not sure what she is actually worth in her own right, but I would be surprised if it was in the region of £600bn.

What does it cost to run Buckingham Palace? I wouldn't want those bills...I know, I already have them :p

Ghislain

Edit: just found this on sky news: "Under the new grant, the Queen will receive 15% of the profits from the £6.7bn Crown Estate." that sounds a bit better...still I wouldn't sniff at 15% of the profit from that.

Awani
12-30-2014, 01:15 AM
Come on... it is silly. She is on welfare. She is a bum. A few years ago I would have liked to gangrape her... now I'm more mature and think eviction is more civil.

Doesn't matter what it costs to run the Palace. They should burn it down. Or let homeless people live there.

This thread has seriously derailed. Or maybe it was off track from the start?

Kneel!

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/proper1_zps6683f128.jpg

:cool:

Ghislain
12-30-2014, 03:20 AM
I think the royal family are kept as a historic relic. The queen has no real power on the political front, and maybe she feels the same as you..."why should anyone tell me what I can earn" ;)

If they leave office they will leave with a vast fortune, they are land owners just like any other land owner who inherited that land, the only difference is they took most of it by force.

The royal family is just a big business, the only difference being they are individually in the public eye.

In an anarchic situation many more people would acquire their land that way; that IMO is human nature.

I don't agree with the situation, but the reality is they have got it made.

What would you do in their situation?

When you say you would have liked to have gang raped her...do you mean you have the hots for her :confused:

The SUN would have given you a bundle for the kiss and tell...ewww I'm imagining you doing it lol

Ghislain

Awani
12-30-2014, 01:46 PM
The "why should anyone tell me what I can earn" doesn't apply when the earnings are given as welfare in the billions!

:cool:

Ghislain
12-30-2014, 06:44 PM
The "why should anyone tell me what I can earn" doesn't apply when the earnings are given as welfare in the billions!

:cool:

Dev at this point in time there is no limit on what you can earn there is a percentage that goes in taxes, just look at that as any other overhead. It was around when you were born, it's not like it has just been created.

I think those who handle our money should be more transparent and accountable for what is done with it; and I wouldn't say no to a reduction in what they take, but one way or another we will pay if we want the services we have. Unless we all of a sudden become altruistic on mass, and I can't see that happening soon.

I do agree with your train of thought but it is not tried and tested...better the devil you know...so to speak.

Individually we could probably live the way you suggest, but that would mean completely shutting yourself off from the system as it is now...and very few realise how deep that system goes...it is one thing to suggest, but another to put those suggestions into practice.

This is the reason I have been trying to put out the facts as far as I can ascertain them to create dialog on how things could be changed.

Most peoples through the ages have collected alms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alms) or tithings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe). This may have been a much fairer system than we have now, but that is the problem, there are some people abusing the system.

I'm all for coming together as communities and helping each other, but as you know, whether on your system or the one we have in place there will always be those abusing it.

I don't know if any Psychologist could give a percentage of people who are of this frame of mind, but even if it was only 0.05%, which is 1 in 2000, then that, in a population of 7bn, would still equate to 3.5 million people abusing the system.

Human nature.

If you look at the figures in post 36, Business Tax represents 0.04% of revenue collected, 1/2500th of total revenue. Does that reflect their responsibility to the community or just that they are professional abusers.


In post 20 you wrote:



1. world wide consensus that we should start again from scratch
2. disaster/destruction so less people can start again from scratch
3. slow evolutionary purification of the human spirit, expelling all assholes into extinction
4. exodus into space

1. How would one achieve such a consensus when very few people vote? Would we just go on a minority consensus as we do now?
2. I wouldn't wish disaster or destruction on anyone; even so it may well come.
3. What would this purification entail and who chooses the arseholes.
4. Why go into space when we can't manage this planet?

Someone once tried something similar; Pol Pot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot), in 1975 via the Khmer Rouge attempted to carry out what he called Return to Year Zero. They slaughtered millions; records estimate that 2.2 million died of a population of 8 million, over 25% of the population.

Can you be sure it can be controlled by stable people or might it be the Killing Fields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_Fields) all over again?

There are a couple of sayings:

Be careful what you wish for as you might just get it.

and

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Ghislain

Awani
12-30-2014, 07:17 PM
He he... you forgot this saying:

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks!"

We can't discuss alternatives of the status quo using status quo logic... for example...


...which is 1 in 2000, then that, in a population of 7bn, would still equate to 3.5 million people abusing the system.

Will it be 1 in 2000 if the whole system is different? I doubt it.


I do agree with your train of thought but it is not tried and tested...better the devil you know...so to speak.

Funny, this is exactly the kind of thinking people had with slavery, women rights, gay rights etc.

:cool:

Awani
12-30-2014, 07:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnFr-DOPf8

:cool:

Seth-Ra
12-31-2014, 12:21 AM
Ive been following this discussion since the thread was made.

Im an Apple fan. Not solely because my brother is the geek of the family and instilled it into us, but because ive used the no-name off brands (i do say that as a slap to the other companies - its "iPhone" or "other", and its like that for a reason) and i side with the better product.

Do i think Apple is a corporation more concerned with money than the lives of its foreign workers? Duh - welcome to capitalism - where we capitalize on the suffering of others. But this is also natural - and its more symbiotic than one might realize at first glance. Each person is responsible for how they wanna live, and advance, or not (everyone has shit to overcome, regardless of where you are born - this is not an excuse for responsibility, nor is it relevant to one's life in the actuality of things). They wanna be #1 in manufacturing - making almost everything the rest of us use, fine. I like watching the actual sunrise/sunset, personally, so they can have their smog factories. :cool:

While i like Dev's idea, and i also simultaneously question its long-term survivability, cause, humans (worst sense of the word)... at the same... humans. (best sense of the word)
Perhaps if we start by giving each other a chance to start with, we all might be surprised. ;)

Equating the notion to Pol Pot and his bat-shit regime, is like equating the notion of people making their own peaceful, independent, self sustaining communities to being akin to Jim Jones and his psychotic death-cult. Its an asinine comparison. The whole thing with the paradigm shift Dev proposes - which is the mental/spiritual pre-requieste for such an endeavor to begin with, removes the complaints/"problems" one thinks is going to be apparent. Looking at a new world with old eyes, is not seeing the reality of whats being proposed/set in front of you.

Yoda is correct. Cease the fear and you win a new world. Be afraid to let go, and youre only hurting yourself.


Edited to also further stipulate this: While i do agree that Apple is more concerned with their bottom dollar, which is natural (for what they are), they also do far more than their competitors. The "broken promises" are less on their head, and more on those who are claiming to Apple that they are upholding Apple's terms, while actually skirting the policies. Apple does what Apple can, within reason (reason is, again, by the standard of what they are) which is more than the others can say they are doing. So this whole thing of trying to knock them around as a "holier than thou" is simply ignorant and narrow-visioned about the actual state of the companies (all of them) and factories (all of them) they outsource to and what each one has the power to do, in a reasonable manner, and what the people choose to do/work for. It all feeds into each other, there are no victims.



~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
12-31-2014, 11:43 AM
As stated earlier in the thread Apple was used as an example. It would be naïve to think that no other corporation was abusing people’s rights. But it would also be naïve to think that these big corporations are unaware of the situation.

Read the articles below…more of the same from others…and there is plenty more where that came from.

Microsoft studies claims of child labour abuse at Chinese supplier (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/microsoft-studies-claims-of-child-labour-abuse-at-chinese-supplier-1946356.html)

LG Electronics, Nokia Tackle Illegal Tin Mining in Indonesia (http://business-humanrights.org/en/lg-electronics-nokia-tackle-illegal-tin-mining-in-indonesia)

These corporations will do anything to make a buck as long as they believe no one knows/cares. The thing is we would also have to be naïve to think that we live our lifestyles without this form of abuse.

I tell my children all the time that we only live the lifestyle we are accustomed to because we keep the third world in poverty and that they would have to decide for themselves what changes they would make and how much of that lifestyle they are willing to forfeit.

We Know!

Pol Pot used his people to gain power and then carried out his plans…do you think for a moment the people would have followed him had they known his true intensions?

After all these atrocities Pol Pot still sat on the board of the United Nations as the UN would not recognise the government installed by the Vietnamese.


And Seth you used the word “asinine” I would be hard pushed to find a more asinine statement than the one below.



Edited to also further stipulate this: While i do agree that Apple is more concerned with their bottom dollar, which is natural (for what they are), they also do far more than their competitors. The "broken promises" are less on their head, and more on those who are claiming to Apple that they are upholding Apple's terms, while actually skirting the policies. Apple does what Apple can, within reason (reason is, again, by the standard of what they are) which is more than the others can say they are doing. So this whole thing of trying to knock them around as a "holier than thou" is simply ignorant and narrow-visioned about the actual state of the companies (all of them) and factories (all of them) they outsource to and what each one has the power to do, in a reasonable manner, and what the people choose to do/work for. It all feeds into each other, there are no victims.

~Seth-Ra

Is ignorance bliss?

I think I was right with the statement written in Niburu’s’ thread, “How To Implement Change?” (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3622-How-To-Implement-Change)

Just after Androgynus posted the picture below:

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/WhyDoWeHaveWars_zps643bff1b.jpg

And I wrote:


All that and the fact that we are gullible, lazy, greedy, hypocritical, selfish, bigoted, nationalistic arseholes and those above use these traits to manipulate the populace.

Well maybe :confused:

I should have added “pseudo naïve”, and the reason I say pseudo is because we pretend we don’t know.

And I did say “we” as I am just as guilty.

Now consider us/we are going to create a new world order with those traits…it’s laughable.

Ghislain

Edit: I am sure there are some truly altruistic people out there somewhere and I would just like to state that what I have said here is a generalisation and should not be used to describe the whole populace. I'm sure you know who you are.

Ghislain
12-31-2014, 03:01 PM
Below are extracts from an article written by Evan Liaras and Harris Mylonas

Evan Liaras is the Davis Post-Doctoral Fellow in European Studies at the Institute of European, Russian, and Eurasian Studies at George Washington University. Harris Mylonas is Assistant Professor of Political Science and International Affairs at George Washington University and Academy Scholar at the Harvard Academy for International and Area Studies.



There are two sides of the public finance coin: expenditure and revenue. What is left out is that while Greek public spending and debt crept up, government revenue fell or remained constant in the years after Greece adopted the euro. Between 2001 and 2007 Greece’s average government revenues totaled 39.4% of GDP, whereas the EU average was 44.4%. Taxes are by far the largest component of government revenue. The issue is not unique to Greece. Declining tax revenues were observed in Ireland, Spain, and in the U.S. after the Bush tax cuts kicked in...

In Greece the culprit has been rampant tax evasion by corporations owing millions in taxes and self-employed professionals who can hide their earnings, unlike salaried employees and pensioners...

Whether the government is reluctant to tax the very wealthy (as in the U.S.) or lax in its duty to punish tax evasion (as in Greece), the results are similar. Revenues can’t keep up with expenditures and lenders become uneasy. Meanwhile, those who are taxed too leniently have an interest in shifting public attention towards cutting government spending. The bitter partisan quarrels in Washington and Athens lately have this much in common. Yet, this obvious point is conspicuously absent from reports on Greece in the English-speaking world...

The first reforms Greece’s new government should focus on are the tax and judicial systems.

Source: globalpublicsquare (http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/20/what-really-went-wrong-in-greece/)

Ghislain

Awani
12-31-2014, 05:09 PM
We are no more guilty than the slaves making our shit in Chinese factories. Each individual is responsible for his or her fate. Fear or ignorance is not an excuse. It is true that those that dare to resist or stand up against oppression are few... but that doesn't justify the actions of the many that are afraid to resist.

The Greece example (if you intend to highlight the point that those who are taxed too leniently have an interest in shifting public attention towards cutting government spending) is irrelevant because we can't discuss alternatives of the status quo using status quo logic... They gave the super rich tax cuts... not the entire population... and not with a 100 % tax cut. It has NEVER been done. So we cannot know what will happen.

What we know is what has NOT worked for 5000 years... so let's try something else. But we won't try it because people are thick assholes. So the only thing we can hope for is:

1. exodus into space
2. destruction of the human race

3. or a bit of both

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/awakening-is-now-or-never_zpsdf1437cd.jpg

:cool:

Ghislain
12-31-2014, 05:22 PM
He he... you forgot this saying:

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks!"

Perhaps the old dog is fed up with tricks and uses wisdom instead.



We can't discuss alternatives of the status quo using status quo logic... for example...

Status quo = "the state in which", we are not talking of keeping the "status quo" here. We are discussing change without throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and there is that word again "can't". If you believe we can't make changes then you're probably right.




Will it be 1 in 2000 if the whole system is different? I doubt it.

I would love to say no, but if the population hasn't changed, then yes. Human nature, how do we change that Dev?




Funny, this is exactly the kind of thinking people had with slavery, women rights, gay rights etc.

I can only refer you to my answer to your second statement above Dev.

Slavery has diminished although it is still prevalent in some communities, women have greater rights in the west now than men...speaking from experience. Gays have a lot more rights now, but it could still be improved upon.

Not perfect, but all brought about within the system in which we work, and without having to throw out every other good thing in the process.

Even those I refer to as arseholes are not that different from the majority of us if we were in the same position IMO.

Or maybe I'm just a bad person :(

Ghislain

Awani
12-31-2014, 05:36 PM
If you believe we can't make changes then you're probably right.

We can make changes... but we won't unless we face some sort of real disaster. I'm not interested in the human race, only in my close circle. It is the only world that is real to me.


We are discussing change without throwing the baby out with the bathwater....

You are, I'm not.

I think the problem began when the human race started farming. I think indigenous culture is the only true working culture... and once we lost that connection we lost it all. The only think the current state of affairs is good for is constructing, financing and setting in motion an exodus into space. IMO.


:cool:

Awani
12-31-2014, 05:39 PM
Perhaps if we start by giving each other a chance to start with, we all might be surprised.

Exactly.

:cool:

Ghislain
12-31-2014, 05:46 PM
We are no more guilty than the slaves making our shit in Chinese factories. Each individual is responsible for his or her fate. Fear or ignorance is not an excuse. It is true that those that dare to resist or stand up against oppression are few... but that doesn't justify the actions of the many that are afraid to resist.

Not sure what you mean here, what fear or ignorance do you refer to? I think that those that are not standing up against oppression are not hurting enough; it's a case of complacency and who will do it first. I don't want to use the holocaust as an example, but they vastly outnumbered the Nazi's in the camps, but some would have to die if they were to rush them...few chose that option even knowing the end result would most probably be death anyway.


The Greece example (if you intend to highlight the point that those who are taxed too leniently have an interest in shifting public attention towards cutting government spending) is irrelevant because we can't discuss alternatives of the status quo using status quo logic... They gave the super rich tax cuts... not the entire population... and not with a 100 % tax cut. It has NEVER been done. So we cannot know what will happen.

Hopefully you will understand from my last post that I am not an advocate of keeping the status quo, that would allow the big greedy corporate monsters to continue using everyone else.


What we know is what has NOT worked for 5000 years... so let's try something else. But we won't try it because people are thick assholes. So the only thing we can hope for is:

1. exodus into space
2. destruction of the human race

3. or a bit of both



Could you describe how it hasn't worked? We are still here and as long as we are change is possible, even if a little doubtful.

Ghislain

Edit:
We are no more guilty than the slaves making our shit in Chinese factories.

Do you think you may think that way if you were one of those workers and you had experienced life in the west?

Ghislain
12-31-2014, 06:20 PM
We can make changes... but we won't unless we face some sort of real disaster. I'm not interested in the human race, only in my close circle. It is the only world that is real to me.

This was my point about it not hurting enough.

Most people are pretty much the same once you get to know them. Each one is probably like the close circle you talk of, but they reflect their circumstances and upbringing, which may make them seem so different - cause and effect.


I think the problem began when the human race started farming. I think indigenous culture is the only true working culture... and once we lost that connection we lost it all. The only think the current state of affairs is good for is constructing, financing and setting in motion an exodus into space. IMO.


I agree with you there Dev and, with a 7billion+ population, returning to those old values of living with the earth probably isn't an option today without drastically depleting the world population. Perhaps we might in time. Would you volunteer to go so that others can survive? That is the dilemma for each of those 7 billion.

Moving to more sustainable energy, changing the way we live in communities and caring for the planet are all things on people's minds today. Let's see where that goes.

Ghislain

Awani
12-31-2014, 08:01 PM
One child per woman would solve the population problem in 50 years.

BUT there is plenty of room and food for 20 billion people if we manage things correctly.


Could you describe how it hasn't worked?

Read your history books and watch the news.


Do you think you may think that way if you were one of those workers and you had experienced life in the west?

I would never allow myself to be oppressed in such an extreme way as a factory worker in China or a concentration camp prisoner. Death is not a threat to me. So I would have nothing to loose. And I don't think I say so because of where I was brought up. My spirit says so.

:cool:

Ghislain
01-01-2015, 07:04 AM
When I wrote could you describe how it hasn't worked...I was thinking it has worked in the respect that you and I are here even after all those years of bad management and abuse, and we are quite healthy without too much hardship.

To all the rest all I can say is fair enough.

Ghislain

Awani
01-01-2015, 06:01 PM
When I wrote could you describe how it hasn't worked...

There is nothing wrong with Nature... if people fuck people will be born.

:cool:

Seth-Ra
01-01-2015, 09:26 PM
As stated earlier in the thread Apple was used as an example. It would be naïve to think that no other corporation was abusing people’s rights. But it would also be naïve to think that these big corporations are unaware of the situation.

Read the articles below…more of the same from others…and there is plenty more where that came from.

Microsoft studies claims of child labour abuse at Chinese supplier (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/microsoft-studies-claims-of-child-labour-abuse-at-chinese-supplier-1946356.html)

LG Electronics, Nokia Tackle Illegal Tin Mining in Indonesia (http://business-humanrights.org/en/lg-electronics-nokia-tackle-illegal-tin-mining-in-indonesia)

These corporations will do anything to make a buck as long as they believe no one knows/cares. The thing is we would also have to be naïve to think that we live our lifestyles without this form of abuse.

I get that Apple is being used as an example, but my point stands as to Apple still being better than the rest.


I tell my children all the time that we only live the lifestyle we are accustomed to because we keep the third world in poverty...

Not so, they keep themselves in poverty. There are ways out if they want them - and plenty of them choose to take those ways out. Those who would rather live on their knees than risk dying on their feet, get what they choose - but its still their choice, as its ours to make use of their choice to serve our production needs/wants.
But no one makes or forces anyone to do anything. :cool:


Pol Pot used his people to gain power and then carried out his plans…do you think for a moment the people would have followed him had they known his true intensions?

Pretty sure that when youre ordered to massacre a shit ton of people, you kinda get that your regime you've backed is a bunch of psychos - yet you still choose to shoot them and burry them in a mass grave... who had the guns and pulled the triggers? The people. Pol Pot was but a figure head of an ideology - the ones who rallied with him, chose to do what they did - just as the ones that got put down chose to fight against that regime.

Again, they have no place of comparison with the system that Dev proposes, as it has a totally different mental paradigm pre-requisite that it works by. Which brings us to the next part...




And Seth you used the word “asinine” I would be hard pushed to find a more asinine statement than the one below.


Edited to also further stipulate this: While i do agree that Apple is more concerned with their bottom dollar, which is natural (for what they are), they also do far more than their competitors. The "broken promises" are less on their head, and more on those who are claiming to Apple that they are upholding Apple's terms, while actually skirting the policies. Apple does what Apple can, within reason (reason is, again, by the standard of what they are) which is more than the others can say they are doing. So this whole thing of trying to knock them around as a "holier than thou" is simply ignorant and narrow-visioned about the actual state of the companies (all of them) and factories (all of them) they outsource to and what each one has the power to do, in a reasonable manner, and what the people choose to do/work for. It all feeds into each other, there are no victims.

There is nothing asinine about what i said in the above. What you are apparently failing to realize is that these things are corporations - built and made in the mental paradigm that our system currently runs on - they do exactly as they are designed to, by the system they run by, a system built by a mental paradigm that you want to hold on to, but somehow fix the system that naturally was birthed by it. Ridiculous


Is ignorance bliss?

You tell me. Are you in a state of bliss? ;)


I think I was right with the statement written in Niburu’s’ thread, “How To Implement Change?” (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3622-How-To-Implement-Change)

Just after Androgynus posted the picture below:

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/WhyDoWeHaveWars_zps643bff1b.jpg

And I wrote:

"All that and the fact that we are gullible, lazy, greedy, hypocritical, selfish, bigoted, nationalistic arseholes and those above use these traits to manipulate the populace.

Well maybe :confused: "

I should have added “pseudo naïve”, and the reason I say pseudo is because we pretend we don’t know.

And I did say “we” as I am just as guilty.

Now consider us/we are going to create a new world order with those traits…it’s laughable.

Ghislain


The whole point is to enter a new paradigm where we have no need of those traits - and birth a new system as a result. The only one hanging on to the traits you list above, is the system/thought youre wanting to preserve, but somehow make better than what it is.
Youre worried about throwing the baby out with the bath water, but not grasping that there hasnt been a baby in the tub since its conception - it was an illusion to get everyone on board with that system to begin with (and they all agreed to believe in the illusion).
The system is broken, the thought is flawed - if you wish to view it as such. If not, then stop making victims, and start playing the game as it was designed to be played - just like the corporations/CEOs, and others who are in power, do.
You think they are assholes, and manipulating the rest - well its because the rest allow themselves to be. Want to change it? Change yourself - change the paradigm, the system follows. Try to hang on to any of the current status quo, and end up back where you started. Either move forward, or take responsibility for being food for those who chose to be better than the rest of you. Its a matter of personal choice and responsibility and each person chooses it for themselves, regardless of circumstances.

Solve et coagula.
Dissolve and Coagulate.
Breakdown and recreate.

Let go, or keep yourself stuck.

http://sadmoment.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Horse-Tied-To-a-Small-Chair-Thinks-It-Cant-Walk-Around.jpg




~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
01-02-2015, 07:08 AM
Seth I can only say that most of your post is naïve.

You are entitled to your opinion, but check out the facts...I'm not going to spell them out for you.

Ghislain

Seth-Ra
01-02-2015, 08:16 AM
Seth I can only say that most of your post is naïve.

To state that what I have said is naïve is to assume I have no experience in the subject matter or what I've said. In doing so, you're showing your own lack of understanding of what I've said.
Believe whatever you want about me or what I've said, it doesn't matter. Your level of understanding isn't going to change anything; not with yourself or the world around you, you just keep chasing your tail.



You are entitled to your opinion, but check out the facts...I'm not going to spell them out for you.

Ghislain

I don't expect you to do anything you cannot; listing relevant facts or spell out flawed logic as if it were sane.

It seems to have become a habit with you, to either purposefully not understand things that are presented to you, or to be totally incapable of it, while simultaneously complaining and holding on to being a victim; of both your own proclaimed human nature and those who make use of that position you've chosen to remain in.
You have fun with that.



:cool:

~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
01-03-2015, 11:23 AM
When I said...


we are gullible, lazy, greedy, hypocritical, selfish, bigoted, nationalistic arseholes and those above use these traits to manipulate the populace.


It just dawned on me the relationship with that to...

Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride

Recognise any of them?

We find it difficult to eradicate most of those traits above so rather than deal with them we say...


http://thealchemyforum.com/Images/paradigm%20shift.png


I think Maslow got it right when he categorises our state of being into levels...

http://thealchemyforum.com/Images/Maslow.png

Ask yourself HONESTLY where you are on this list?

Note the top of the pyramid...

HELP OTHERS!

As opposed to, now you got here on your own (illusion) fuck everyone else.

Many people are still trying to find their basic needs on that bottom level...

AREN'T WE THE LUCKY ONES!

and I can say that with some confidence as you will probably need a computer to read that statement.


http://thealchemyforum.com/Images/Rothschild

Good for you Jacob! <- said with a sarcastic grin


Russ says it all for me...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bKQXmvdr8o

Perhaps we should ask ourselves the question...

WHY AM I HERE?

We might just find the answer.

Ghislain

Awani
01-03-2015, 02:19 PM
Russell thinks the solution is Socialism... for this reason anything he says is empty to my ears as I know Socialism is just Communism-light.

I don't think Maslow's pyramid is correct. Maslow’s model is hierarchical. This is 'old (current) world' thinking.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/Maslow-rewired_zps43646949.jpg


“Here’s the problem with Maslow’s hierarchy... None of these needs — starting with basic survival on up — are possible without social connection and collaboration…. Without collaboration, there is no survival. It was not possible to defeat a Woolley Mammoth, build a secure structure, or care for children while hunting without a team effort. It’s more true now than then. Our reliance on each other grows as societies became more complex, interconnected, and specialized. Connection is a prerequisite for survival, physically and emotionally.

Needs are not hierarchical. Life is messier than that. Needs are, like most other things in nature, an interactive, dynamic system, but they are anchored in our ability to make social connections. Maslow’s model needs rewiring so it matches our brains. Belongingness is the driving force of human behavior, not a third tier activity. The system of human needs from bottom to top, shelter, safety, sex, leadership, community, competence and trust, are dependent on our ability to connect with others. Belonging to a community provides the sense of security and agency that makes our brains happy and helps keep us safe.” - source (http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/03/29/what-maslow-missed/)


Man is by nature a social animal; an individual who is unsocial naturally and not accidentally is either beneath our notice or more than human. Society is something that precedes the individual. Anyone who either cannot lead the common life or is so self-sufficient as not to need to, and therefore does not partake of society, is either a beast or a god.― Aristotle

Futile to solves societies problem by tackling the individual issues within such as greed etc. You don't think that a paradigm shift, a different society altogether might actually be a society without those deadly sins (or at least less of them)?

Lust, Greed, Gluttony, Envy = captialism/socialism

Sloth = laziness (democracy, which makes 'someone else' responsible + media numbing our brains)

Wrath, Pride = patriotism, nationalism

The status quo encourages the deadly sins. In most indigenous cultures there is little of these deadly sins... at least compared to modern society.

I would like to see an indigenous culture as the base of society, on which we build an individual free anarchic world (which in other words means a world where each person is responsible for the self). One way to do this is to introduce psychedelics into the 'growing up' stage of the child... as a 'coming of age' ritual. And for those that do not want to use psychedelics then some other sort of altered state 'ritual'.

What ritual do we have now? The 'coming of age' ritual in our society is the day when we are allowed to buy porn or alcohol or drive a car. Wow... so deep!

:cool:

Ghislain
01-03-2015, 09:47 PM
Russell thinks the solution is Socialism... for this reason anything he says is empty to my ears as I know Socialism is just Communism-light.

I don't think Russell is concerned with any ism if the truth be known, he is against voting and thinks most parties are shit, but says if he had to vote he would vote Green.

On the point of Socialism, I am all for it if it is carried out with the intent of its true meaning.



Socialism
A socialist economic system is based on the organisational precept of production for use, meaning the production of goods and services to directly satisfy economic demand and human needs where objects are valued based on their use-value or utility, as opposed to being structured upon the accumulation of capital and production for profit. In the traditional conception of a socialist economy, coordination, accounting and valuation would be performed in kind (using physical quantities), by a common physical magnitude, or by a direct measure of labour-time in place of financial calculation. On distribution of output there have been two proposals, one which is based on the principle of to each according to his contribution and another on the principle of from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. The advisability, feasibility and exact methods of resource allocation and valuation are the subject of the socialist calculation debate ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_calculation_debate ).
Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism)

There may appear to be room for abuse in the second method of distribution until you read my reply to the next quote, but I think you will find that is the system most indigenous communities work to.



Futile to solves societies problem by tackling the individual issues within such as greed etc. You don't think that a paradigm shift, a different society altogether might actually be a society without those deadly sins (or at least less of them)?

Dev, this may be where we are differing in our train of thought, where I talk of the "Seven Deadly Sins" I am talking of personal human traits, not the traits of society; something inherent in the individual. See below and ask yourself if you have these under control; so when you ask, "You don't think that a paradigm shift, a different society altogether might actually be a society without those deadly sins", no I don't think that because the problem with society is the problems that the individual brings to it, but then you didn't say what that paradigm shift was shifting into?



Lust, or Lechery is an intense desire. Lust could be exemplified by the intense desire for money, food, fame, power, or sex.

Gluttony is the over-indulgence and over-consumption of anything to the point of waste.
In Christianity, it is considered a sin if the excessive desire for food causes it to be withheld from the needy.
Because of these scripts, gluttony can be interpreted as selfishness; essentially placing concern with one's own interests above the well-being or interests of others.

Greed or Avarice, is, like lust and gluttony, a sin of excess. However, greed is applied to a very excessive or rapacious desire and pursuit of material possessions.

Sloth can entail different vices. While sloth is sometimes defined as physical laziness, spiritual laziness is emphasized. Failing to develop spiritually is key to becoming guilty of sloth.
Sloth has also been defined as a failure to do things that one should do. By this definition, evil exists when good men fail to act.

Wrath, also known as "rage", may be described as inordinate and uncontrolled feelings of hatred and anger. Wrath, in its purest form, presents with self-destructiveness, violence, and hate that may provoke feuds that can go on for centuries. Wrath may persist long after the person who did another a grievous wrong is dead. Feelings of anger can manifest in different ways, including impatience, revenge, and self-destructive behavior, such as drug abuse or suicide.


Envy like greed and lust, is characterized by an insatiable desire. Envy is similar to jealousy in that they both feel discontent towards someone's traits, status, abilities, or rewards. The difference is the envious also desire the entity and covet it.
Envy can be directly related to the Ten Commandments, specifically, "Neither shall you desire... anything that belongs to your neighbour." Dante defined this as "a desire to deprive other men of theirs". In Dante's Purgatory, the punishment for the envious is to have their eyes sewn shut with wire because they have gained sinful pleasure from seeing others brought low. Aquinas described envy as "sorrow for another's good".

Pride in almost every list, is considered the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and the source of the others. It is identified as believing that one is essentially better than others, failing to acknowledge the accomplishments of others, and excessive admiration of the personal self. Dante's definition was "love of self perverted to hatred and contempt for one's neighbour.
Source:Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins#Historical_and_modern_definition s)

Not pointing the finger at anyone, but it would be useless to tell me you don't have all of those traits as I believe we all do deep down and some not so deep, it's part of being human, but some control them better than others.



I don't think Maslow's pyramid is correct. Maslow's model is hierarchical. This is 'old (current) world' thinking.

Again you have misconstrued my meaning...I am talking of the individual before society. Just for a quick example could you look for shelter without air, if you found shelter how long could you stay there without food...etc...

I agree this is "old (current world) thinking" because it is true, the alternative example given was "societal thinking". I am looking at it from an individual's point of view with no society to back them up. Then we can look at how a society handles this in the section above...Socialism.


The status quo encourages the deadly sins. In most indigenous cultures there is little of these deadly sins... at least compared to modern society.

I think we both agree that we won't be able to keep the status quo for that would mean no change and it is change we are looking for. The reason that there "appears" to be little of these deadly sins in indigenous culture is because they work to a socialist system, each helping the other, however they still have to control their lust for example, they are only human.



I would like to see an indigenous culture as the base of society, on which we build an individual free anarchic world (which in other words means a world where each person is responsible for the self). One way to do this is to introduce psychedelics into the 'growing up' stage of the child... as a 'coming of age' ritual. And for those that do not want to use psychedelics then some other sort of altered state 'ritual'.

What ritual do we have now? The 'coming of age' ritual in our society is the day when we are allowed to buy porn or alcohol or drive a car. Wow... so deep!


Radical :) I think they may need a lot of explanation as to what they are about to embark on lol. <- I really did chuckle

Having said that I think it would be a good idea. When my parents forced me to church I may have had a better appreciation of it if I had dabbled in some psychedelics; in the right way, not how I did it as a teenager.

Ghislain

Edit: Dev did you watch the Russell Brand Video?

Awani
01-03-2015, 10:59 PM
I've watched his video, and several more than that one.


I don't think Russell is concerned with any ism if the truth be known, he is against voting and thinks most parties are shit, but says if he had to vote he would vote Green.

He has said Socialism is the solution... can't be asked to find which video... but he has.


On the point of Socialism, I am all for it if it is carried out with the intent of its true meaning.

It never has and never will. And having lived in a Socialist state I know it is not advisable. In practice it doesn't work, even with the best intentions. Socialism breeds Envy and Sloth.


I am talking of personal human traits, not the traits of society; something inherent in the individual.

Society = bunch of individuals

Your list of deadly sins and their description is exactly what I mean. The current system we have, and have had since we started farming, breeds those things.


The reason that there "appears" to be little of these deadly sins in indigenous culture is because they work to a socialist system, each helping the other...

Indigenous culture is miles and miles away from a socialist culture. Since I have direct experience of real socialism, and somewhat direct experience of fundamental socialism, as well as kind of honest socialism I am pretty certain of my claim.

- A lazy person would not survive in an indigenous society, but that person would do fine in a socialist society.

- A person that excels would do great in an indigenous society, would become a leader, warrior or shaman... but in a socialist society efforts would be made to surpress and push down such an individual

If you are only talking about socialism as a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole then yes in a sense this is similar to an indigenous society but with one major difference:

They don't own anything in the same way a Jaguar doesn't own the tree he sleeps in.


the principle of to each according to his contribution


the principle of from each according to his ability, to each according to his need

The above so-called socialistic principles are not applicable only to socialism. Could be capitalism also... I mean in capitalism you really have each according to his contribution... the better you do 'capitalism' the more you will get. Same with to each according to his need, which is only limited by the greed of each.

Because who will decide who needs what and who contributed what? Someone should decide this? Then you are talking about some sort of fascism.

Finally to help other people has nothing to do with socialism, it has got to do with real human or real asshole.

:cool:

Ghislain
01-04-2015, 04:36 PM
I've watched his video, and several more than that one.
He has said Socialism is the solution... can't be asked to find which video... but he has.

I'm sure he has, and he probably means socialism in the same way I do.

I believe the process I posted from Wikipedia is the solution for those who can control their 7 vices...
Let's stop calling it Socialism...there are far too many different movements professing that they are socialistic when in fact they have no idea what the word means. I'll call it Oneism...maybe I'll be famous for that one day...
That bloke was a Oneist arsehole :mad: Brings a whole new meaning to Mark's-ism ;)

In your answer to my statement...


On the point of Socialism, I am all for it if it is carried out with the intent of its true meaning.

you said...


It never has and never will. And having lived in a Socialist state I know it is not advisable. In practice it doesn't work, even with the best intentions. Socialism breeds Envy and Sloth.

I agree it never has; there has never been a true socialist movement anywhere...Socialism doesn't breed Envy and Sloth they are just inherent traits in us all and anyone who denies this is lying to themselves... "can't be asked to find which video" :confused: They may be well hidden or well controlled, but they are there all the same. If one could eradicate them I believe that would be true enlightenment; so to say, "there never will", is a bit defeatist...it is like saying people will never change...


Society = bunch of individuals

and if that is the case then we are stuck with what we have because any group/society/commune/tribe...call it what you will...will consist of individuals...let's hope you're wrong or we are stuck with what we have.



Your list of deadly sins and their description is exactly what I mean. The current system we have, and have had since we started farming, breeds those things.

To say that some outside factor can breed a vice is reverse thinking...the vices are present and if an outside influence distracts you then that trait can come to the surface...how many people see themselves as good people, but when something comes their way a bit cheap...no questions asked...they know why it is cheap...this is how the fakers make their money, pretending their fakes are the real thing, knowing that many people think they are getting a bargain for something that is probably stolen.

To say something breeds a vice is just a way to disown responsibility; to believe you can create a better world with people of the same mind-frame of denial as we have today is a pipe dream (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pipe%20dream?s=t).


Indigenous culture is miles and miles away from a socialist culture.

I can't see where you come up with that Dev...let's look at it...


organisational precept of production for use, meaning the production of goods and services to directly satisfy economic demand and human needs where objects are valued based on their use-value or utility, as opposed to being structured upon the accumulation of capital and production for profit.

that seems to fit...remember we have a much greater population (whether right or wrong) than the average indigenous tribe and thus we cannot live off the land in the same way.


In the traditional conception of a socialist economy, coordination, accounting and valuation would be performed in kind (using physical quantities), by a common physical magnitude, or by a direct measure of labour-time in place of financial calculation.

you'd have to decipher that one for me...but "performed in kind" rings a bell.


On distribution of output there have been two proposals, one which is based on the principle of to each according to his contribution

Which solves your dilemma of a lazy person doing well in a socialist society...not sure how that fits with the indigenous as I am not privy to how they share other than what I see on TV documentaries.

I can't use the Indigenous I have met as they are out of their environment, are being paid very well for their services compared to what they normally earn and are working for Westerners.

but what is lazy...some of those you class as lazy are probably using the broken system, as you yourself profess to do, but from the other end of the spectrum feeling disenfranchised with a society that allows the few to get rich to the detriment of others and the ecology...so they think if those fat cats can sit on their arses at the expense of all others and if the system allows it then so shall I...they probably look at the working class with as much contempt as you look at them...then I guess you do have some lazy bums who don't have the intelligence to think that , I guess those are the ones we are talking of.

I digress...lets continue...


and another on the principle of from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

If a man in an indigenous society has no legs he won't be expected to go out and gather food or build and maintain shelter, I'm sure he will still get fed...if a man is so old he can't contribute in any way, I'm sure he will still get fed. I think that fits too.


A person that excels would do great in an indigenous society, would become a leader, warrior or shaman... but in a socialist society efforts would be made to surpress and push down such an individual

Socialism does not dismiss the idea of a leader, we all know some people are good organisers while others are good manual workers. But in your indigenous society there may be many with the leadership ability, how do you decide which it is going to be; fight for it or let the tribe decide? Maybe there could be a voting system or do we just let the oldest have it and he decides who is next when his time is up? all old systems; which would work best for you, or do you have another idea?


If you are only talking about socialism as a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole then yes in a sense this is similar to an indigenous society but with one major difference:

They don't own anything in the same way a Jaguar doesn't own the tree he sleeps in.
Why would they...there is nothing to own except the clothes on their back a few homemade pieces of jewellery and perhaps some home comforts in their huts.

I remember the days when neighbours were really that...each looking out for each other and socialising together, but then came a little more wealth and one neighbour now had fitted carpets wall to wall instead of loose rugs, another got the first colour TV, then hi-fi's, modern washing machines, better cars and before you knew it, it became a competition...in the UK we call it, "keeping up with the Jones's"; doors began to close, families became isolated.

Greed and Pride won over and now only the select few are allowed into the little castle we call home. On many occasions it is to show off our latest new asset and on the more occasions that we don't is because we don't want them to judge what we have.

When it was a socialising community people would discuss issues and note the imperfections in what had been reported; now they only converse with the TV and believe what it's telling them, although thankfully we now have the internet where we can converse with each other once again and those conversing can't judge what the other has.

You are welcome around mine anytime...I have very little. ;)

Have you had your neighbour over for dinner recently?

Good for you if you have.


The above so-called socialistic principles are not applicable only to socialism. Could be capitalism also... I mean in capitalism you really have each according to his contribution... the better you do 'capitalism' the more you will get. Same with to each according to his need, which is only limited by the greed of each.

Because who will decide who needs what and who contributed what? Someone should decide this? Then you are talking about some sort of fascism.

I think that is a bold attempt to make a comparison Dev... let's look at the word "Social"


1. pertaining to, devoted to, or characterized by friendly companionship or relations:
a social club.

2. seeking or enjoying the companionship of others; friendly; sociable; gregarious.

3. of, pertaining to, connected with, or suited to polite or fashionable society:
a social event.

4. living or disposed to live in companionship with others or in a community, rather than in isolation: People are social beings.

5. of or relating to human society, especially as a body divided into classes according to status: social rank.

6. involved in many social activities: We're so busy working, we have to be a little less social now.

7. of or relating to the life, welfare, and relations of human beings in a community:

"My God what disgusting principles...they must be stamped out!"

say the capitalists!

You cannot run a socialist community in a capitalist world...the indigenous are isolated and thus they can.



Finally to help other people has nothing to do with socialism, it has got to do with real human or real asshole.

I haven't met a person yet, myself included, who doesn't carry both of those within them.

There is the challenge of enlightenment...root out the arsehole within ourselves; no mean feat if you're not aware he's there.

Not expecting you to look at all the videos below, but look at the first one and note the answer to the second and third question he reads out then wiz on to the end where he says how what he is doing is effecting him.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUvqa9HvUU4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euaQTnUyGcA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdYdUp3UxMo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YR4CseY9pk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrVe7jJE__M

Ghislain

Awani
01-04-2015, 05:42 PM
Russell Brand is ok I guess... but he doesn't speak for me... there is something 'wrong' with him. Feels fake... not sure why, just rather get inspired by other folks.

As for our debate I think it is futile.

I do not think we can change the current world with present day techniques... even if they work on paper... because I think this it is meaningless for me to try and debate your points, like socialism, voting etc... for me it is impossible.

You don't like when I say 'never will'... well Nazism never will approve of a Jew fucking an Arian in the ass... never will... maybe one day it would, who knows... but both you and I know that it probably never will... the same as socialism never will be the solution. 1984 is not the solution for 2084.

My only certainty is this:

1. things will move forward as they are till they don't
2. our destiny is exodus into space
3. the only true peace I can find is to create my own little indigenous culture around me and be the change I want to see, because I don't want to create any other form of change
4. it doesn't matter if there are evil or bad people in the world... in the higher realm / higher illusion these people are just babies

:cool:

Ghislain
01-04-2015, 09:29 PM
As for our debate I think it is futile.

Yes I agree and I was getting a bit tired of it lol

But don't be too hard on RB he's only a comedian trying to make a difference...and he admits himself he likes attention.

До следующего раза... oops! slip of the tongue ... until next time ;)

Ghislain

Awani
01-04-2015, 10:50 PM
還行

:cool:

Andro
01-10-2015, 12:36 PM
3. The only true peace I can find is to create my own little indigenous culture around me and be the change I want to see, because I don't want to create any other form of change.

This is quite similar to my own vision.


2. Our destiny is exodus into space.

I was thinking more in terms of Inner Space... That would make it more of an 'Insodus' than an 'Exodus'...

So, just out of curiosity, I typed insodus.com (http://insodus.com)

Turns out I don't have the access codes :)

Andro
01-19-2015, 02:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_TCDS-V6Aw

Andro
01-23-2015, 12:19 PM
With all the circulating 'utopian' fantasies, here's a thought that crossed my mind today:

Maybe, on a deeper level, what is really bothering many of us is NOT the possibility that 'the world isn't fair', but the fact that it actually IS...

Perhaps not necessarily a concept of 'fairness' that most people are currently able to comprehend, but fairness nevertheless.

One may check out the Hermetic Law of Causality, if so inclined:


6. The Principle of Cause and Effect "Every Cause has its Effect; every Effect has its Cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is but a name for Law not recognized; there are many planes of causation, but nothing escapes the Law." - The Kybalion.

This Principle embodies the fact that there is a Cause for every Effect; an Effect from every Cause. It explains that: "Everything Happens according to Law"; that nothing ever "merely happens"; that there is no such thing as Chance; that while there are various planes of Cause and Effect, the higher dominating the lower planes, still nothing ever entirely escapes the Law. The Hermetists understand the art and methods of rising above the ordinary plane of Cause and Effect, to a certain degree, and by mentally rising to a higher plane they become Causers instead of Effects. The masses of people are carried along, obedient to environment; the wills and desires of others stronger than themselves; heredity; suggestion; and other outward causes moving them about like pawns on the Chessboard of Life. But the Masters, rising to the plane above, dominate their moods, characters, qualities, and powers, as well as the environment surrounding them, and become Movers instead of pawns. They help to PLAY THE GAME OF LIFE, instead of being played and moved about by other wills and environment. They USE the Principle instead of being its tools. The Masters obey the Causation of the higher planes, but they help to RULE on their own plane. In this statement there is condensed a wealth of Hermetic knowledge - let him read who can.

Ghislain
01-23-2015, 06:31 PM
Yes I guess that is the case...but does it have to be?

Can we not rise above it or at least start the climb?

Ghislain

Awani
01-23-2015, 06:35 PM
Yes I guess that is the case...but does it have to be?

Can we not rise above it or at least start the climb?


They USE the Principle instead of being its tools.

They = you and I

:cool:

Ghislain
01-23-2015, 06:36 PM
Next week we plan to go on strike for two days...because of the shift pattern I am not at work for them two days and lose no money. I have to talk to my colleagues to see if they will submit two days pay to go into a pot and get shared out across the board so we all suffer some of the burden. They don't have to, it will be a voluntary decision. I'll let you know what happens.

We are not striking for money...it's a terms and condition thing relating to health and safety...just in case you thought we were being greedy ;)

Ghislain

Ghislain
01-23-2015, 06:40 PM
Dev...when I said "we" I meant all of us working together.

I know it's a big ask.

Ghislain

Awani
01-23-2015, 07:40 PM
My problem with strikes is that you are not allowed to not strike. If you do you get fucked over... scab etc.

Regardless of the issue I just don't like this concept of 'you have to'.

Don't know about the UK but normally you get paid even if you are on strike.


Dev...when I said "we" I meant all of us working together.

I don't understand? What you wrote doesn't compute with what Andro wrote IMO.

:cool:

crestind
01-24-2015, 06:56 AM
All I know is that iOS 7 is a complete disaster. Jony Ive should really stick to hardware because it's horrifically ugly, not to mention horrifically slow and buggy. Safari crashes on the regular now. Seems like Apple and Microsoft are slowly swapping roles...

Ghislain
01-24-2015, 07:43 AM
My problem with strikes is that you are not allowed to not strike. If you do you get fucked over... scab etc.

Regardless of the issue I just don't like this concept of 'you have to'.

Don't know about the UK but normally you get paid even if you are on strike.



I don't understand? What you wrote doesn't compute with what Andro wrote IMO.

:cool:

The days of closed shop unions is over in the UK Dev...you don't have to be in one. In our company we have about a 98% voluntary membership and have never had a strike in 27 years.

This proposed strike is because some French jumped up company has come in and wants to break up a team that has won railway of the year awards five or more times...we give 99% service every day...we have a 99% customer satisfaction and they are ignoring basic health & safety issues.

It is a franchise and they get fined if targets are not met, so they have outsourced the most difficult department for achieving targets because they too can fine that company more than they get fined...this creates a business ethic that wants targets missed because they make more money in fines. WTF that is backward thinking.

They are 70% owned by SNCF the same rail company that shipped thousands of Jews to Nazi death camps.

Update: The team was unanimous on giving up a percentage of their pay for those who are going to lose theirs and thus sharing the burden...nice gesture :) just have to talk to three other teams now, but the other three stand to make more from the deal so I guess they will ok it. Restores my faith in human nature.

To hopefully explain what I wrote I have to say I don't want to rule anyone and I don't want to be ruled...some people are slower than others and the faster ones can support the slower ones...we don't need hierarchy today...it is an outdated thing of the past hanging on by its teeth. We are all equal in my eyes and should all share each others burden...it's an all for one and one for all situation...for me...we all just need to change our way of thinking and see the Eden that is all around us...well the bits we haven't tarmacked yet...

Ghislain

Awani
01-24-2015, 09:58 AM
All I know is that iOS 7 is a complete disaster.

It's 8 now.

:cool:

Awani
01-24-2015, 12:16 PM
We are not equal. And we should not be equal.

We should have equal opportunities and equal kindness and empathy. But that is where it ends. Some people are weak, some are strong, some are shamans and some are assholes... even if it is Utopia.

I don't want to be equal the slow, lazy or assholes. They have to work hard to be equal me and I have to work hard to equal the one greater than I.

:cool:

Ghislain
01-24-2015, 05:31 PM
Some enjoy hard work some don't, some enjoy music some don't, some enjoy swimming some don't; so we will always be different but in my mind all equal.

vive la différence

There are none above me and none below.

Ghislain

Awani
01-24-2015, 07:16 PM
There are none above me and none below.

There is a guy in South Dakota called Larry that is just like you.

:cool:

Awani
02-07-2015, 03:12 PM
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/10968399_771427706277906_7558981645920933093_n_zps 3p641128.jpg

:cool: