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Nibiru
01-09-2015, 06:22 PM
Philosophically speaking.. Once our 'subject/matter' has been transmuted, did its former nature ever exist or has it always been 'gold'?

Kiorionis
01-09-2015, 09:19 PM
With my current understanding of things, our subject matter's former nature always exists, because that former nature is rooted in non-existence :P
At this point everything is malleable!

Say we have 'Lead'. Lead necessarily needs 'three qualities' in order to maintain its Lead-ness. These qualities aren't the structure of the Lead, but they are what create the structure of Lead (the Forth thing, Form). To define transmutation, I would say it's the manipulation of the quality and ratio of the 'three qualities' in a substance -- Lead -- so that it exhibits its highest state, or perfection -- Gold. The quality through the degrees of fire (manure, water-bath, sand-bath, etc.), and the ratio seems to depend on how good your Minecraft (Mind-craft?) skills are. . .

The structure doesn't change unless the qualities contained within change first (whether it be oil, spirit of wine, or salt). Because everything is built on one foundation, a new foundation changes the structure of the house on top of it. Or the shell breaks and everything dissolves. Who knows ;)

But this explanation is me processing the internal work I've been doing lately. Don't know how it would translate into external labwork.

Awani
01-09-2015, 10:55 PM
Good one...


or has it always been 'gold'?

If we are talking symbolically then I think so, and if we are talking spiritually then also yes.

But recently I have come to the realisation that what we call spiritual/non-practical alchemy... what we call mind-alchemy is physical alchemy. Because there is no difference between the two at all. The difference is our failure to see the thing right there, in front of us... that mind and matter are the same... that lead and gold are the same. And the more different they are the more similar they are, and the more similar they are the further apart they become... and when they have achieved the greatest distance between them they meet again because everything is a circle... even a straight line.

That is why we do not need to transmute, transform... change... lead into gold. Lead is gold. We are gold. Everything is already perfected.


A man said to the Buddha, “I want Happiness.”
Buddha said, first remove “I”, that’s ego,
then remove “want”, that’s desire.
See now you are left with only Happiness. - source unknown

So in order to transmute lead into gold... just remove the lead.


or has it always been 'gold'?

Always.


and the ratio seems to depend on how good your Minecraft (Mind-craft?) skills are. . .

Excatly! (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3813-Minecraft)

:cool:

Ghislain
01-10-2015, 07:28 AM
Philosophically speaking.. Once our 'subject/matter' has been transmuted, did its former nature ever exist or has it always been 'gold'?

Using the word "Philosophically" makes me think of something that has a rational argument and what I believe, to most others, has no rational argument.

On a few journeys now I think I have seen what is, it is amazing, but now it seems so distant.

I had to tell myself, while on the journey, that no matter how I feel later I know what I am seeing now is real; I find that difficult now as all I can remember is snippets and the fact that I told myself to remember it was real, but I trust myself.

So there can only be one answer to the question above, there is only one true nature and gold doesn't begin to describe it, other than perhaps a metaphor if you regard gold as the highest achievable.

Kiorionis mentions Mind-craft and to that I would agree, but I would prefer to call it a mind-fuck.

Even though I take this out of context I believe Dev nailed it with...


The difference is our failure to see the thing right there, in front of us...

However I would say the difficulty instead of the difference.

And the word "see"...how do you see something that has no need for eyes?

Perhaps in the minds<-for want of a better word) eye.

Ghislain

Andro
01-10-2015, 09:23 AM
The ratio seems to depend on how good your Minecraft (Mind-craft?) skills are. . .

The Transmutation of Mentals :)


And the more different they are the more similar they are, and the more similar they are the further apart they become...
And when they have achieved the greatest distance between them they meet again because everything is a circle... Even a straight line.

And maybe that's the key to How To Implement Change (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3622-How-To-Implement-Change)...

Nibiru
01-10-2015, 05:28 PM
Thanks for the responses. IMO a True transmutation would work beyond any conceivable bounds of space and time. Once a matter has transmuted in this manner I would think it would be much further reaching than presently imaginable.

Nibiru
04-04-2016, 06:57 PM
http://i.imgur.com/EcpjTNJ.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/BoK9K71.jpg

Measurement/Darkness/Lead-------------------------------Unity/Light/Gold

Andro
04-04-2016, 09:14 PM
And that's the actual meaning of "The End Of Time" :)


http://i.imgur.com/EcpjTNJ.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/BoK9K71.jpg

Measurement/Darkness/Lead-------------------------------Unity/Light/Gold

Ghislain
04-05-2016, 05:03 AM
Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa.

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fl.rgbimg.com%2Fcache1nO2f4%2Fusers %2Fj%2Fjo%2Fjohnnyberg%2F600%2FmjZ2aoo.jpg&f=1

Ghislain

Salazius
04-05-2016, 10:17 AM
Everything is nothing expressed as a temporarily mutable something.

Nibiru
04-07-2016, 11:32 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys, we seem to be sharing a similar vision :)

Perhaps Lead is Gold, or to quote Salazius "It appears that Unity is never lost."

I recently ran across this quote that seems to support what I'm attempting to relay:

Mircea Eiliade speaks to the transformative power found outside of ordinary time. He says:

the Philosopher’s Stone realized this miracle (alchemy), as it eliminated the interval of time which separated the present condition of an imperfect (crude) metal from its final perfected condition when it would become gold. The stone achieved transmutation almost immediately – it superceded time.

Lead is one of the most malleable metals, could this possibly be a clue as to potential misconceptions concerning the Nature of Time? Perhaps the concept of Time may not be as concrete as we've been Lead to believe...

Salazius
04-08-2016, 11:18 AM
Mercury is even more malleable.
Lead is not lead but is lead anyway.
Gold is not unity at all, nor perfection, just a symbol, not just actual perfection. Pale reflection of something higher ...

Perfection is nothing. Something is always able to putrefy and "die". Even the highest Stone ever possible to produce, it is alway susceptible to be destructed.

Unity is never lost because it is nothing. You can only lost something.

Nibiru
04-09-2016, 12:40 AM
Mercury is even more malleable.
Lead is not lead but is lead anyway.
Gold is not unity at all, nor perfection, just a symbol, not just actual perfection. Pale reflection of something higher ...

Perfection is nothing. Something is always able to putrefy and "die". Even the highest Stone ever possible to produce, it is alway susceptible to be destructed.

Unity is never lost because it is nothing. You can only lost something.

Thanks :) Keep in mind I was only speaking philosophically of 'Lead' and 'Gold' as references to above and below polarities concerning the concept of Unity and Separation. I was also using 'Lead' as a double analogy to represent Saturn/Chronos/Time. The image of the clock and glyph for the Sun would have better effect if Superimposed upon One another. I was hoping to convey a Transmutation of Separation into a state of Unity Consciousness. This realization requires stepping outside the bounds of time-space-matter or separation. It also, once realized, shows that the separation/Lead never existed at all but was merely an illusion of separation overlaying the Truth of the paradox of time/no-time, Unity/Seperation, spirit/matter, etc.. How they are One but None, seen as opposing yet of the same Source.

Nibiru
10-19-2016, 04:57 PM
After quite some Time with no sleep I began to ponder this concept a bit more and decided to share my Vision with friends, below is a cut/paste of what I attempted to convey.









I just have had what I believe to be a realization / Epiphany in the middle of the night and before I forgot it I felt that I should go ahead and write it down for Further Future contemplation.

Is it possible that what most considered as transmutation is
only an Earthly form of aided Evolution and not a completely UNIVERSAL aspect of the REAL Potential that such an act could Potentially Create?

IMO TRUE Transmutation goes far beyond what we hear or read of concerning the Perfection of metals, evolution of our bodies, minds, and Spirits, etc. Is it possible that Universal Transmutation could actually effect 'matters' that are beyond the physical Sphere or even psychological level(when Jungian Spiritual concepts of the Alchemical Path are considered)? IMO a Transmutation of this Kind could easily Transcend our concept of 'Reality' and even potentially posses the Ability to EVOLVE Matters/Materials/Works beyond the notion of Time and Space. This notion could just as easily effect entire races, species, countries, WorLds, solar systems, galaxies, perhaps the entire UNIverse, and even those that are worshiped as GODS.

What actually LEAD me to consider this was a personal method of simple psychological/emotional Transmutation that I've found my self and recently been using more frequently and at times without premeditation. It relates in a way to the concept of the glass half full/empty analogy that most are familiar with. Regardless of if it is currently Truth or just a method of personal comfort for my own psychological and emotional wellbeing, I still choose to follow the REASONING I'm about to Relate. It concerns the NATURE of Duality, good/bad, righteous/evil, Light/Dark, etc. Rather than carry the emotional burden of constant reminders of the InJustice, Cruelty, and Suffering that exists HERE, I've Chosen to attempt to SEE ALL 'Negative' situations and matters for whatever their opposite POSITIVE attribute may be and how it could in some way, maybe actually Exists in some portion(however small) within said circumstances. This concept is revealed when ONE contemplates the Yin Yang Symbol while considering how the Dark portion contains a SEED of Light while the same holds True concerning the White portion of the image with its Seed of Darkness.. Once I'm able to Recognize the GOOD that such negative situations and beings contain, I then precede to exert EFFORT to convince myself of this possible reality Fractal. I hadn't realized it before but this personal act of calming may actually be the KEY to very HIGH Alchemical Truths that are rarely spoken/written of. This method of contemplation, if the science of how our Thoughts have the Ability to effect reality is properly Understood(check Observer Effect, observation of LIGHT particles/Waves, etc.), then a True 'Stone' that has reached the 'Multiplication' Level could very well CHANGE/EVOLVE EVERYTHING!! Transcending TIME, Nature, physics concepts, REALITY, etc...

If something of this Nature were to Actually occur, I doubt that most would even Recognize the unfathomable CHANGE that had become MANIFEST through the Process, due to the fact than in a moment Faster than the shortest instance, Everything as well as Nothing have been EVOLVED on every Level conceivable as well as that which remains unknown/unfathomable through any form of intellectual Reasoning. Best way for me to relay this idea is to consider Dreams and the way their manifestation, characters, and Events occur Spontaneously once we've began to DREAM.

When one gains the full ability to apply this form of reasoning to every situation without effort, then IMO they are performing a True Act of Magick and actually causing the nature of existence/reality to Evolve Towards this Higher Realm of UNDERSTANDING and Being. It could somehow relate to the 'changing of the ages' as well, such as The Bronze, Industrial, or Age of Pieces < Aquarius, the GOLDEN AGES, etc.. Its interesting to contemplate how incomplete quite a bit of our COLLECTIVE history actually is. Lost Civilizations and continents, Messiah Figures, sudden and unexplained extinctions/disappearances perhaps even the TRANSCENDENCE of entire species with no REAL explanations as to how or even why such things happen. Anyway just thought I'd attempt to Save and even Share these Ideas with 'Those With Ears To HEAR' or at least listen with an open-mind. Well I feel I've relayed as much of this VISION as I'm capable of during the PRESENT Moment. Perhaps there will be more consideration in the Future concerning these ideas or possibly even potential REALIZATIONS of a TRUTH soon to be AWAKENED, MANIFESTED, and finally revealed and comprehended by ALL. WHO Knows!?

So when we ponder the Thought that our MINDS have been proven scientifically to affect 'Reality at levels that are even capable of transcending what we experience as space and time, we are then prepared to consider something of a totally different concept in contrast to what most have been taught. My simple definition of the Ancient ART of Alchemy using my Limited Understanding is such: Alchemy is an effort on the part of the Artist working in UNITY with Nature and forces overseeing our GROWTH, to find a way to recognize UNIVERSAL SPIRIT or LIFE-FORCE so that we can then Conceive of Methods towards attracting, containing, accumulating, and Finally Utilizing said Spirit for the purpose of Healing, Growth, and finally the EVOLUTION/TRANSMUTATION of the Matter or Materials that we are HOPING to CHANGE. OK my blurry eyes are telling me its time to lay it back down and get more rest. Thanks for Listening to my late night ramblings! ;)

If any Truth exists within these concepts then there can only be 1 possible conclusion IMO, What WILL Evolve has already done so once the TRANSCENDENCE of TIME has become REALIZED, its only our intellect and Eyes are just a tad bit late to SEE IT as IT occurs.

If Alchemy is the Art of Evolution, then it is also the art of TIME/Saturn/Chronos. In Truth Time is the 1 provable and constant form of Transmutation that is constantly occurring throughout Nature and All observable Reality Structures, given the easily observable fact that All is eventually Evolved through the PASSAGE of Time...

Or in other Words, if we can conceive these notions, then 1 conclusive fact remains IMO..

* * * LEAD is already GOLD!!

All that remains is for US to Wake Up and finally open our EYES ;)

Awani
10-19-2016, 11:41 PM
LEAD is already GOLD!!

This is what I have been "preaching" (openly) for the last few months. LOL. So yeah... I think there is potential in this concept for sure.

I'd go even further and say: without gold, no lead. ;) Which in a way utterly changes the game... in my view.

"The branch might seem like the fruit's origin: in fact, the branch exist because of the fruit." - Rumi

:cool:

JDP
10-20-2016, 02:11 AM
This is what I have been "preaching" (openly) for the last few months. LOL. So yeah... I think there is potential in this concept for sure.

When you have "preached" long and hard enough to convince pawn shops, jewelers, precious metals dealers of any kind, let me know, as I have many pounds of lead I would just love to sell them at roughly $1300 an ounce ;)