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Kiorionis
01-13-2015, 03:02 AM
After a recent conversation with someone, I've decided that one of the outcomes of practicing alchemy is the 'Mystical Experience'.

I've made this into a poll just for gits and shiggles ;)

I define the mystical experience as: a subjective and momentary submission and 'Union with the Divine', in a determined or universal way, in dreams or waking consciousness, resulting in a new knowledge and understanding of the 'Divine'.

Not only am I curious what others think about the mystical experience as a goal in alchemy, I'm also curious in any opinions, ideas and/or comments on the subject of mystical experiences in any way, shape or form.

Such as an answer to the question, how would you define a 'mystical experience'?

http://themysticallife.com/sites/default/files/uploads/infinityface.jpg

Illen A. Cluf
01-13-2015, 08:10 PM
I define the mystical experience as: [i]a subjective and momentary submission and 'Union with the Divine', in a determined or universal way, in dreams or waking consciousness, resulting in a new knowledge and understanding of the 'Divine'.

I've had an extremely deep mystical/spiritual 'state' (for complete lack of a better term) in the past, but I hesitate to try to define a "mystical/spiritual experience". One of the problems is the word "experience".

"Experience" implies an "experiencer", or someone who is "experiencing" something. The word "experience" brings up all sorts of questions, such as: Does it involve recognition? Does it involve a sense of something 'happening' to me? Thus the "experience" implies a recognition of the event in terms of past memories, experiences, expectations, etc. You become a separate, biased "observer"of the event, rather than let the event become part of you. If the experience involves a form of remembrance or identification, , then there must have been a feeling that the experiencer already "knows" or "recognizes" it. Can there be an experience without an experiencer?

As long as there is an "experiencer" experiencing something, then the event is something that is happening TO the experiencer, something that is not ordinary or habitual, and something that is separate. "Spiritual" implies something that could be religious, holy, profound, unexpected, or extraordinary. But why would we seek something that is totally different from our "ordinary" daily lives? Are we bored with our "normal" routines? Or are our "normal" routines really not what we should be pursuing?

Seeking these experiences can become a form of ego, during which the experiencer or observer feels very important and above others who cannot achieve those states. So the real question is, can there be a period of time when the experiencer or observer is not important? At such a time, you do not want experiences, you just want nothing (i.e. no thoughts), and just a total state of "being". Only then can there be no "experiences" at all. In other words, at such a time, we are not experiencing the illusion of daily events based on observer prejudice, but the universe stark naked, as it really is.

It is this time, during which there are no experiences at all, a time when there is no conscious, deliberate pursuit or desire to achieve something, no 'observer', a totally uninvited and unsought state, with a quality of something totally fresh and new, a sense of vast emptiness and fathomless energy, a sense of immeasurable joy and love, a sense of the absolute, a sense of total beauty and completeness, that I would call the mystical/spiritual 'state'. It's the ultimate - the whole universe is in it, you are not observing it, but ARE truly and completely it. You become everything and everything is you until there is no longer a separate "you". It becomes the real thing, completely separate from experience and ego.

P.S. Practical alchemy is totally dependent on "experience". Thus, based on what i have said above, practical alchemy cannot possibly include the mystical experience (although it could conceivably trigger it).

Ghislain
01-15-2015, 06:08 PM
This is a difficult question to answer as there are so many permutations of the meaning of "mystical experience"

For example from Thersaurus.com (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/mystical) it lists synonyms of "mystical" as...

Esoteric (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/esoteric), Magical (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/magical), Anagogic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anagogic), Arcane (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arcane), Cryptic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cryptic), Hermetical (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hermetical), Orphic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/orphic)

and then goes on to list words related to "mystical" as...

abstruse, anagogic, arcane, cabalistic, cryptic, enigmatical, hidden, imaginary, impenetrable, inscrutable, magic, magical, metaphysical, mysterial, mysterious, necromantic, nonrational, numinous, occult, otherworldly, paranormal, preternatural, quixotic, sorcerous, spiritual, supernatural, telestic , thaumaturgic, transcendental, unaccountable, unknowable, visionary, wizardly

it continues with a list of sub-headings and their "mystical" related words...

Cryptic adj. secret; obscure in meaning

abstruse, ambiguous, apocryphal, arcane, cabalistic, dark, Delphian, Delphic, enigmatic, equivocal, esoteric, evasive, hidden, incomprehensible, inexplicable, murky, mysterious, mystic, mystical, mystifying, occult, opaque, oracular, perplexing, puzzling, recondite, secretive, strange, tenebrous, unclear, unfathomable, uninformative, vague, veiled


Dark adj. hidden, secret

abstruse, anagogic, arcane, cabalistic, complicated, concealed, cryptic, deep, Delphian, enigmatic, esoteric, intricate, knotty, mysterious, mystic, mystical, mystifying, not known, obscure, occult, puzzling, recondite

this goes on with each entry listing a group of related words with slightly different connotations...

Anagogic adj. occult
...
...
Difficult adj. complicated; hard to comprehend
Divine adj. godlike, perfect
Esoteric adj. mysterious, obscure
Hidden adj. unseen, secret
Metaphysical adj. not physical; without physical presence
Mysterious adj. secret, concealed
Mystic adj. secret
Occult adj. mysterious, secret; supernatural
Oracular adj. prophetic
Otherworldly adj. extraterrestrial; psychic
Recondite adj. mysterious, obscure
Secret adj. hidden, unrevealed
Transcendental adj. surpassing

and as yet we haven't even considered the word "experience", which similarly has many different connotations.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience)...


"Experience is the knowledge or mastery of an event or subject gained through involvement in or exposure to it."

I shall leave the reader to peruse the dictionary meaning of "experience" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/experience?s=t) and the words related to it in the Thesaurus (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/experience).

As part of the alchemical lab one should have an alter at which to pray for guidance in the laboratory work...not a religious place of sacrifice, but a place of concentration/meditation to connect with what is.

IMO Alchemy without "mystical experience" is Chemistry.

Ghislain

Ghislain
01-15-2015, 07:05 PM
Are we bored with our "normal" routines? Or are our "normal" routines really not what we should be pursuing?

I can't speak for others, but I am bored with "normal" routines and I do believe that our "normal routines are really not what we should be pursuing.


Seeking these experiences can become a form of ego, during which the experiencer or observer feels very important and above others who cannot achieve those states.

I cannot experience these states, but I have asked to see what is and through the medium of psychedelics I believe I have seen. There was a stage where I saw the Ego and laughed at it, and another stage where I realised that nothing at all matters. The final stage, for me, was seeing everything for what it is and the purpose of what we are. If I were to describe that then my words would corrupt it into yet another religious script. The answer lies in all of them, but how can you come to an understanding of something that has absolutely no meaning in the realm of this world...you need to seek the "mystical experience".

I will just say that no one is above another in any way shape or form except in their own mentality.

(check out my entry in the Ayahuasca Report (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1298-Ayahuasca-Report/page7)).

I feel like I cheated with the psychedelics and would love to be able to have the experience without them, but I'm too lazy :(.


At such a time, you do not want experiences, you just want nothing (i.e. no thoughts), and just a total state of "being". Only then can there be no "experiences" at all. In other words, at such a time, we are not experiencing the illusion of daily events based on observer prejudice, but the universe stark naked, as it really is.

Can you know if you have that state of being without thought?

Is there actually a Universe?

Look at the science's

We believe something may be such a way, we go looking and we find it; convenient?


It is this time, during which there are no experiences at all, a time when there is no conscious, deliberate pursuit or desire to achieve something, no 'observer', a totally uninvited and unsought state, with a quality of something totally fresh and new, a sense of vast emptiness and fathomless energy, a sense of immeasurable joy and love, a sense of the absolute, a sense of total beauty and completeness, that I would call the mystical/spiritual 'state'. It's the ultimate - the whole universe is in it, you are not observing it, but ARE truly and completely it. You become everything and everything is you until there is no longer a separate "you". It becomes the real thing, completely separate from experience and ego.

Now imagine that you already have all of that and have had it since infinity...where would you go from there?

Turn everything you said up-side-down and here you are!

Think Human think Tamagotchi.

Ghislain

Illen A. Cluf
01-15-2015, 09:55 PM
I can't speak for others, but I am bored with "normal" routines and I do believe that our "normal routines are really not what we should be pursuing.

I agree. My question was meant to emphasize that, during our 'normal' routines, we feel bored and always seem to look for something that is novel, as though we feel that our normal routines aren't enough, or don't seem to lead us to what is 'real'. We need our normal routines in order to take care of our physical needs, as well as for 'entertainment'. But what we seem to be here for is not only to learn and experience all that is physical, but also to envelope all that is spiritual.


I cannot experience these states, but I have asked to see what is and through the medium of psychedelics I believe I have seen. There was a stage where I saw the Ego and laughed at it, and another stage where I realized that nothing at all matters. The final stage, for me, was seeing everything for what it is and the purpose of what we are. If I were to describe that then my words would corrupt it into yet another religious script. The answer lies in all of them, but how can you come to an understanding of something that has absolutely no meaning in the realm of this world...you need to seek the "mystical experience".

You admit that "you" (i.e. 'ego') want to "see" (i.e. 'observe') the state, and even that there was an Ego ("I") who "laughed at" Ego. All this still implies the existence of an "Ego". My point about "Ego" was about the existence of an "observer" who observes the "experience". By observing implies using memories, past experience, opinions, etc., etc. to evaluate the experience. Thus my point, that a spiritual state cannot possibly be an "experience". The spiritual state involves no Ego "observing" the state, no past memories, past experiences, opinions, etc., all of which are used by the Ego to judge the state. A spiritual state (at least as how it happened to me) happened spontaneously, without will, without me being an observer, without me having any opinions or judging the state. All that only happened AFTER the state, when my Ego kicked back in and my opinions, past experience, etc. began to judge it in retrospect. During the state, there was no "me" separate from that state. There was nothing in that state that I could relate to any past experience. It was totally novel. I have had many hallucinogenic experiences in the past, and they were nothing like this state. Through meditation, I have tried to get into a mystical state for many decades, but never succeeded. The mystical state that I did achieve happened spontaneously, without any intention, although there might have been preceding events that triggered it. During the state, it felt that my entire body was 'glowing'. It was also accompanied with a state of euphoria, hard to describe. It's almost like having goosebumps on every cell of your body, and a mind that has no limits or specific focus. The mystical experience does indeed bring you in contact with what I would consider the ultimate Reality and Understanding.


I feel like I cheated with the psychedelics and would love to be able to have the experience without them, but I'm too lazy :(.

From my 'experience' it is not something that can be specifically pursued, although I understand that there are those who can attain it through deep meditation. Otherwise, it just seems to come in its own time. Perhaps I may only have had that one state once while alive. Perhaps that's all that's needed to give our physical life meaning.


Can you know if you have that state of being without thought?

That's the whole irony of it. IMO, it's not something that you can "know" until after you have had it and your Ego kicks back in. The state itself is completely dependent on "not knowing" and having no preconceptions or judgement whatsoever. That's what I tried to say earlier, about it NOT being an "experience". I think a lot of people confuse this" spiritual state" with a pseudo "spiritual experience", which is more akin to a "meditative state" where observation and judgement by the "I" can still operate. Thus you can indeed associate the meditative state with alchemical operations, but definitely NOT the truly spiritual state where there is no sense of observing and judging of "an experience". This is very difficult for me to explain.


Is there actually a Universe?

That is entirely dependent on how you would define "Universe".


Now imagine that you already have all of that and have had it since infinity...where would you go from there?

Ghislain

You go exactly where you are already going. For each it will be totally different.

Andro
01-15-2015, 10:52 PM
Beautiful.

Dendritic Xylem
01-16-2015, 12:28 AM
The mystical state that I did achieve happened spontaneously, without any intention, although there might have been preceding events that triggered it.

What were these possible trigger events?
I won't be offended if you prefer to keep it private.

Illen A. Cluf
01-16-2015, 05:04 AM
What were these possible trigger events?
I won't be offended if you prefer to keep it private.

Well, I believe that perhaps everyone has the potential to be triggered into such a state, as long as they don’t specifically seek it, but instead remain open to it when it does begin to occur. It’s so easy to become frightened or to try to judge it as it begins to happen, that I think many beautiful opportunities are lost as a result. I debated about whether to reveal the story or not, because whenever I have told close friends this story, it’s almost always met with disbelief. In a way, it’s indeed very personal, and the only way it can be appreciated and be “believed” is by being in such a state yourself.

But, even though one risks ridicule, I think it’s the duty of those who have been in such a state to pass along whatever they can so that others will be prepared for it when it does begin to happen to them. A small inner voice might then be remembered, and say, “remember that weirdo who had that mystical state and what he said?” I’m sure there are as many “triggers” as examples of such states, but if enough people relate their stories, perhaps some common element or understanding can be gained. At the very least it might help in being more prepared. So, with those provisions, I will here relate a brief summary of what I remember happening.

it was a very strange occurrence. It happened during the late 1990’s, when I was still very deeply involved in Grail research. An author who wrote several Grail/Hermetic-related books posted a picture in the back of his first book ("Bloodline of the Holy Grail") done by an artist (Peter Robson), showing a battle between Roman soldiers and early Gnostic British warriors (Celts). The battle is occurring on a chessboard surrounded by symbolic Grail, Holy Bloodline, esoteric and alchemical imagery: Mary Magdalene, the Sun and Moon, the table of the Last Supper, a Unicorn purifying the Underground Stream, a painting by Da Vinci, Arthur’s round table (from Winchester), a spear striking a dragon, etc. Much of it is reminiscent of Dan Brown’s book, but this was before his book. (The group I was involved with was discussing just about everything important that Dan Brown relates in his book – but we were doing that during the 1980’s at the time Baigent’s book “Holy Blood, Holy Grail” came out. One of the participants I communicated with at that time was the first to come up with (and write a book about) the theory that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were man and wife. Brown never acknowledged her theory in his book). Anyways, the Grail is obviously one of the pieces on the chessboard.

The artist was selling numbered large framed prints of the painting at the time, and I purchased one (along with two other related prints of his paintings). I studied the painting very intensely, and was able to figure out which soldier or Celt or object represented which type of chess piece. I figured that there must be an underlying message behind the chess layout, since at the time, the author was undertaking a contest along with his books, related to the imagery behind the paintings.

My son was interested in chess at the time, so I asked him to set up a chessboard with the pieces as I indicated. I had about 15 books on chess, many of which showed many dozens of famous or obscure chess layouts. I picked up a single book at random and opened the book at random. The book fell open the first time, to the one picture in all of my books of that particular chess layout in the Grail painting! What were the odds of that happening!! It was an obscure layout of a chess game that took place, I believe in the early 1900’s. I later calculated the odds of that configuration matching the illustration, and it was something like billions of times less likely than winning a Lottery!

Not only that, but the chess layout was also, appropriately, an example of “chess blindness”. This means that one of the elite players was so involved in trying to determine the intricacies of the next move, that he missed the very most obvious step. It’s like what happens to us on a constant basis – we always tend to miss the most obvious. This is also said of Alchemy. We look for the most complicated solution, but miss the most obvious.

The very incredible synchronistic nature of having that particular book open at the very and only illustration of the Grail chessboard layout (every single piece fit perfectly) in my entire collection of chess books, at the very time I also happened to be reading Carl Jung’s books on “Synchonicity” the evening before, so suddenly shocked and enthused me at the same time, that I had an intense “Ah Hah!” experience which not only jolted my body, like being struck with electrical energy, but seemed to bring me to the point where it seemed to trigger my whole body and soul into a most deep euphoric state. It felt like my entire body was very hot, almost feverish, and it felt like I had goosebumps everywhere, inside and out. The feeling intensified over the next hour or so until I and the mystical state was synonymous. I recalled later, that during that state, I was not only aware of everything, but I WAS that awareness. It was the moment that I realized for certain that ‘God’ (Awareness) is not just some separate entity towering over us, asking us to worship it, but that we and everything is all one seamless ‘part’ (not the correct word but am only using that word to make it a little more understandable) of ‘God’. I had numerous other insights (which seemed to happen instantly) which I won’t get into here. Only the tiniest fraction of the realization remained with me once my ego returned and began analyzing what happened.

The glowing state lasted for a day or two afterwards, while I kept thinking of what happened, but it was nowhere as intense as the state itself. I have never before or since come anywhere close to that single state (although I had other very unusual psychic-like “experiences” in the past).

There you have it. As far as I remember, in black and white, this is exactly what happened - and this is not an allegorical story.

Ghislain
01-16-2015, 09:06 AM
Only the tiniest fraction of the realization remained with me once my ego returned and began analyzing what happened.


I totally relate to your experience.

This is how I explained returning...I realised my emotion had returned...things began to matter again and I knew it was over.

As I have said before words cannot begin to explain it.

My analysis, whether right or wrong, was that it is vitally important to take control of our emotions and related this to the seven deadly sins, seven cardinal sins or seven capital vices ... whichever name suits ....

Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, Pride.

Perhaps these are the qualities of Ego.

Ghislain



Edit: Ego (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ego?s=t)


1. the “I” or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.


2. Psychoanalysis. the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.


3. egotism; conceit; self-importance.


4. self-esteem or self-image; feelings.


5. (often initial capital letter) Philosophy. a.the enduring and conscious element that knows experience. b. Scholasticism. the complete person comprising both body and soul.


6. Ethnology. a person who serves as the central reference point in the study of organizational and kinship relationships.

Illen A. Cluf
01-16-2015, 02:13 PM
I totally relate to your experience.

This is how I explained returning...I realised my emotion had returned...things began to matter again and I knew it was over.

Exactly! Our egos (although necessary for physical survival) seem to get in the way of the true spiritual state.


As I have said before words cannot begin to explain it.

A true understatement. All we can do is try.




Edit: Ego (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ego?s=t)


1. the “I” or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.


2. Psychoanalysis. the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.


3. egotism; conceit; self-importance.


4. self-esteem or self-image; feelings.


5. (often initial capital letter) Philosophy. a.the enduring and conscious element that knows experience. b. Scholasticism. the complete person comprising both body and soul.


6. Ethnology. a person who serves as the central reference point in the study of organizational and kinship relationships.

Excellent summary of "ego". Many think it generally only means #3 and #4, but it goes deeper, as I tried to explain above. I particularly relate to the philosophical definition in #5, regarding "experience".

I strongly believe that one of the purposes of human life is to learn the difference between body, soul and spirit, and also how they relate to each other. Many religious as well as alchemical Philosophers have said the same.

Awani
01-16-2015, 11:27 PM
I feel like I cheated with the psychedelics and would love to be able to have the experience without them, but I'm too lazy

If you could have, you would have.

In order to converse with the Plant Doctor's you need to buy a ticket... you can't meditate your way there, that is impossible. Maybe you can meditate yourself to other 'teachers', but not to Mother Ayahuasca or Dr. Shroom.


"The biggest ego trip... is getting rid of your ego... and the joke of it all is your ego does not exist, there is nothing to get rid of. It's an illusion... but you still want to ask how to stop the illusion, but who is asking?" - Alan Watts

:cool:

Ghislain
01-17-2015, 01:22 AM
The biggest ego trip... is getting rid of your ego

I don't think getting rid of the Ego is the point Dev...it's more learning to live with it as a necessary part of who we are in this worldly existence.

To find balance in its traits that fit with other's Ego...I guess you could liken each Ego to a jigsaw piece and if all the pieces fit together you have harmony.

Perhaps a little Utopian thinking there... :confused:

Ghislain

Awani
01-17-2015, 01:34 AM
I don't think getting rid of the Ego is the point Dev...it's more learning to live with it as a necessary part of who we are in this worldly existence.

There is no ego.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/starstuffponderingstarstuff_zps6b18adec.jpg

As for the topic of this thread I think, IMHO, that Practical Alchemy without the Mystical Experience is a waste of time. But I can only speak for myself and I have nothing to debate about it... I just think that all pursuits in life should be in the realm of the Mysteries, the Divine... not saying I achieve this, but it's my aim.

Again I am closer to the Fundamentalists (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4126-The-Bible-2-FUN-damentalism) than I at first thought. It's funny really... that the people I think are most brainwashed and narrow-minded (which they are), are probably closer to the truth than the rest of us (even if they might view this truth a bit fucked up than they should).

:cool:

Ghislain
01-17-2015, 04:57 AM
Again I am closer to the Fundamentalists (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4126-The-Bible-2-FUN-damentalism) than I at first thought. It's funny really... that the people I think are most brainwashed and narrow-minded (which they are), are probably closer to the truth than the rest of us (even if they might view this truth a bit fucked up than they should).


Scary, but that thought passed through my mind too...I think it is the total commitment they give to it, like the Jewish guy I sat next to on the plane home from Peru...reads and prays seven hours a day. When I asked him how long he had been doing it he said since he was a child (must have been about 80 yrs old). Not making an opinion of what he was doing just pointing out the commitment to his belief. Must be a bummer if you get it wrong ;)

Where you say there is no Ego, I agree and disagree at the same time. Ego is as real as we are in this earthly existence...I would be hard pushed to find someone without Ego I think...it is as much a part of us as is our hands and feet. I could see that there are no hands and feet and thus no Ego; did I explain that properly :) oh well it is 5 am...time for bed.

By the way...love that picture.

Ghislain

Dendritic Xylem
01-17-2015, 06:04 AM
There you have it. As far as I remember, in black and white, this is exactly what happened - and this is not an allegorical story.

Thanks for sharing. Very interesting occurrence for sure.

crestind
01-17-2015, 08:51 AM
Mystical for me would be like The Matrix turning into reality. I see the universe as I know it dissolve around me, and I see that it's all some sort of cosmic illusion. Every person I know is actually me, but from a different perspective, and reality and time were all just in my mind.
(That seems to be the hinted at "conclusion" for alchemy)

3+O(
02-09-2015, 05:38 PM
There you have it. As far as I remember, in black and white, this is exactly what happened - and this is not an allegorical story.

Thanks for sharing this story. I have had a similar experience which happened when I was mentally struggling to understand an alchemical text. I believe such states to be intimately related to the alchemical philosophy: there seems to be a deep resonance between that 'experience' or 'state' and the alchemical symbolism. That position is affirmed by the mystical interpreters of alchemy (Burckhardt, Evola, Atwood, Hitchcock) but did not read them until after I had already come to the same conclusion based on my own experience.

III
02-23-2015, 06:53 AM
After a recent conversation with someone, I've decided that one of the outcomes of practicing alchemy is the 'Mystical Experience'.
I've made this into a poll just for gits and shiggles ;)
I define the mystical experience as: a subjective and momentary submission and 'Union with the Divine', in a determined or universal way, in dreams or waking consciousness, resulting in a new knowledge and understanding of the 'Divine'.
Not only am I curious what others think about the mystical experience as a goal in alchemy, I'm also curious in any opinions, ideas and/or comments on the subject of mystical experiences in any way, shape or form.
Such as an answer to the question, how would you define a 'mystical experience'?
I don't think I could define "mystical experience". There are lots of examples possible. I know it when I see it, sometimes. Often I can recognize it only because I remember how I "got there", and it was quite sudden. Other times I have worked to open up to such. Working with my partner we have experiences whenever we sit down to do such, sometimes faster than other times.

The last two months we have been on a steep up-curve on intensity of mystic experience, together. As tantric alchemists mostly, the only labs my partner and I have are our bodies and minds. Divine ecstasy is transforming, repeatedly.

Michael Sternbach
02-23-2015, 05:30 PM
Is the ego merely an illusion? My ego says: Nope! :D

Zen Buddhism insists that this mind is the mind of the Buddha. And in Astrology, the Sun can stand for both the ego and the spiritual self.

It is not so much the ego which stands in the way of spiritual experience but its confinement by limiting beliefs and by the five physical senses. In Astrology, the frontier of its realm is represented by Saturn - the last of the visible planets which confines the inner planets, and is being himself confined by his characteristic ring.

Beyond Saturn there are the outer planets found in more recent times - up to now, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, as far as Astrology is concerned. They open the Solar System up to the forces of the Galaxy. In the psyche, they represent traits like higher dimensional awareness, psychic perception, mystical union.

The outermost is reflected in the innermost, thus, as the ego transcends its Saturnine boundaries, it is filled with the light of the inner self emanating from its center. That's the process called Enlightenment.

Unlike some other metaphysical systems, Alchemy doesn't teach detachment from the physical world but bringing the spiritual light into it: The spiritual becoming physical, and the physical becoming spiritual.

Thus the Emerald Tablet says:

"Its force is entire if it be converted into earth."

Andro
02-23-2015, 05:55 PM
Can you know if you have that state of being without thought?

Mind at rest is still mind, yet thoughtless... And also EFFORTLESS, which is the really |<()()|_ part about it :)


Is there actually a Universe?

There is no spoon.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzm8kTIj_0M

Michael Sternbach
02-23-2015, 06:42 PM
Elaborating on my previous post, I would like to highlight that the action of the trans-Saturnian planets can be seen both in the process of Enlightenment (or, to use a Jungian term, Individuation) and in the operations of practical Alchemy.

For example, the airy Uranian influence of elevating the forces to higher vibrational level is reflected in the Alchemical Sublimation; watery Neptune's way of dissolving the ego's boundaries we find in the Solution; and Pluto's often harsh action burning up what is hindering the restoration of one's true self is analogous to the Calcination.

The matter thus opened up will be imbued by the cosmic forces and attain a higher level of its evolution. Again, this holds true not only for the substance in the flask but also for the Alchemist themselves, due to the correspondence that is happening between them.

This is how practical Alchemy and mystical experience tie in with one another as seen from an Astrological perspective.

Kiorionis
02-27-2015, 07:03 AM
Much to reply to :)


I've had an extremely deep mystical/spiritual 'state' (for complete lack of a better term) in the past, but I hesitate to try to define a "mystical/spiritual experience". One of the problems is the word "experience".

"Experience" implies an "experiencer", or someone who is "experiencing" something. The word "experience" brings up all sorts of questions, such as: Does it involve recognition? Does it involve a sense of something 'happening' to me? Thus the "experience" implies a recognition of the event in terms of past memories, experiences, expectations, etc. You become a separate, biased "observer"of the event, rather than let the event become part of you. If the experience involves a form of remembrance or identification, , then there must have been a feeling that the experiencer already "knows" or "recognizes" it. Can there be an experience without an experiencer?

The few 'mystical' experiences I've been through seem to have happened to me, for my own sake -- which is one reason I define the Mystical Experience as 'a subjective and momentary submission and 'Union with the Divine' [. . .] resulting in a new knowledge and understanding of the 'Divine'. They all have involved a profound feeling of something happening to me.

I personally don't think 'experience' involves any form of remembrance or identification. It is all happening, and everything is new. Even the few moments of deja-vu that I've experienced seem slightly new.

Can there be an experience without an experiencer? It's a good question.


But why would we seek something that is totally different from our "ordinary" daily lives? Are we bored with our "normal" routines? Or are our "normal" routines really not what we should be pursuing?

What happens when 'religious pursuits' become the routine and ordinary life?


So the real question is, can there be a period of time when the experiencer or observer is not important? At such a time, you do not want experiences, you just want nothing (i.e. no thoughts), and just a total state of "being". Only then can there be no "experiences" at all. In other words, at such a time, we are not experiencing the illusion of daily events based on observer prejudice, but the universe stark naked, as it really is.

This reminds me of the 'Black Phase' of the alchemists. When I first started experiencing this state of wanting nothing, I didn't see it as a state of pure 'Being'.
I saw it as lifeless and stagnant and wanted nothing to do with it. Then:


It is this time, during which there are no experiences at all, a time when there is no conscious, deliberate pursuit or desire to achieve something, no 'observer', a totally uninvited and unsought state, with a quality of something totally fresh and new, a sense of vast emptiness and fathomless energy, a sense of immeasurable joy and love, a sense of the absolute, a sense of total beauty and completeness, that I would call the mystical/spiritual 'state'. It's the ultimate - the whole universe is in it, you are not observing it, but ARE truly and completely it. You become everything and everything is you until there is no longer a separate "you". It becomes the real thing, completely separate from experience and ego.

To quote Andro, beautiful :)


P.S. Practical alchemy is totally dependent on "experience". Thus, based on what i have said above, practical alchemy cannot possibly include the mystical experience (although it could conceivably trigger it).

I think I see where you're coming from. Thanks for the response :)

Kiorionis
02-27-2015, 07:09 AM
I cannot experience these states, but I have asked to see what is and through the medium of psychedelics I believe I have seen.

I include deep psychonautic explorations in my definition of the 'Mystical Experience' because the medicine forces you to submit and learn something new.

Certainly not cheating. Everyone should to experience it, as far as I'm concerned.


There was a stage where I saw the Ego and laughed at it, and another stage where I realised that nothing at all matters. The final stage, for me, was seeing everything for what it is and the purpose of what we are. If I were to describe that then my words would corrupt it into yet another religious script. The answer lies in all of them, but how can you come to an understanding of something that has absolutely no meaning in the realm of this world...you need to seek the "mystical experience".

Did you feel like you were experiencing all of this, or that you were the experience?
I'm still thinking about what Illen wrote. If there could possibly be an experience without the experiencer, then the experiencer would be the experience. . . :confused:


I feel like I cheated with the psychedelics and would love to be able to have the experience without them, but I'm too lazy :(.

Or, if the submission of the false 'Ego' is to blame, then maybe you're too hyperactive? ;)

Kiorionis
02-27-2015, 07:11 AM
Beautiful.

:)
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/starstuffponderingstarstuff_zps6b18adec.jpg

Kiorionis
02-27-2015, 07:17 AM
There is no ego.

If there is no 'ego', then why is it named? :P


As for the topic of this thread I think, IMHO, that Practical Alchemy without the Mystical Experience is a waste of time. But I can only speak for myself and I have nothing to debate about it... I just think that all pursuits in life should be in the realm of the Mysteries, the Divine... not saying I achieve this, but it's my aim.

Not looking for a debate. Looking for Experience ;)
If you keep all pursuits in the realm of the Mysteries and the Divine, how do you stay 'grounded'? And better yet, how should the youth be educated in these pursuits?
I don't see any of it in American "society"


Again I am closer to the Fundamentalists (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4126-The-Bible-2-FUN-damentalism) than I at first thought. It's funny really... that the people I think are most brainwashed and narrow-minded (which they are), are probably closer to the truth than the rest of us (even if they might view this truth a bit fucked up than they should).

:cool:

I think most people confuse Fundamentalism with Fanaticism. Fanatics are the narrow/closed-minded ones whereas Fundamentalists stick to tradition. Fanatics try to change the world to their own views whereas Fundamentalists -- if they follow the lighter side of religion -- usually accept people for who they are.

At least that's what I see here in America.

Kiorionis
02-27-2015, 07:18 AM
Thanks for sharing this story. I have had a similar experience which happened when I was mentally struggling to understand an alchemical text. I believe such states to be intimately related to the alchemical philosophy: there seems to be a deep resonance between that 'experience' or 'state' and the alchemical symbolism. That position is affirmed by the mystical interpreters of alchemy (Burckhardt, Evola, Atwood, Hitchcock) but did not read them until after I had already come to the same conclusion based on my own experience.

Sound like the text 'broke your brain' ;)
Do you remember which text it was?

Kiorionis
02-27-2015, 07:22 AM
I don't think I could define "mystical experience". There are lots of examples possible. I know it when I see it, sometimes. Often I can recognize it only because I remember how I "got there", and it was quite sudden. Other times I have worked to open up to such. Working with my partner we have experiences whenever we sit down to do such, sometimes faster than other times.

The last two months we have been on a steep up-curve on intensity of mystic experience, together. As tantric alchemists mostly, the only labs my partner and I have are our bodies and minds.

Hi III,
When practicing tantric alchemy, and there is a 'up-curve on intensity', can you predict when/where it finally flowers? I am curious because recently I have begun some Taoist meditation practices which involve 'charging' myself with energy, and then it's re-programming, and it has only come to the point of discomfort.

But then again, I'm assuming the pursuit should be painless. Which I also assume to be naive...


Divine ecstasy is transforming, repeatedly.

Very beautiful :)

Kiorionis
02-27-2015, 07:31 AM
It is not so much the ego which stands in the way of spiritual experience but its confinement by limiting beliefs and by the five physical senses. In Astrology, the frontier of its realm is represented by Saturn - the last of the visible planets which confines the inner planets, and is being himself confined by his characteristic ring.

I very much agree with you here Michael.


Unlike some other metaphysical systems, Alchemy doesn't teach detachment from the physical world but bringing the spiritual light into it: The spiritual becoming physical, and the physical becoming spiritual.

Thus the Emerald Tablet says:

"Its force is entire if it be converted into earth."


The matter thus opened up will be imbued by the cosmic forces and attain a higher level of its evolution. Again, this holds true not only for the substance in the flask but also for the Alchemist themselves, due to the correspondence that is happening between them.

This is how practical Alchemy and mystical experience tie in with one another as seen from an Astrological perspective.

You're saying then, that the 'Mystical State/Experience' (opening of the Ego) is necessary in order to bring the spiritual light into the physical world?

Can Alchemy be performed through the practice of Astrology to achieve the Mystical?

Michael Sternbach
02-28-2015, 12:57 PM
You're saying then, that the 'Mystical State/Experience' (opening of the Ego) is necessary in order to bring the spiritual light into the physical world?

Yes. Some clearing of the mind from negative thoughts and emotions is generally part of the process, too.

The spiritual light pouring into one's consciousness may be accompanied by a visual perception of light or increased brightness, by the way. That's probably where the term 'enlightenment' comes from.


Can Alchemy be performed through the practice of Astrology to achieve the Mystical?

Yes. Spiritually oriented Astrology goes hand in hand with Internal Alchemy.

III
03-02-2015, 06:44 PM
Hi III,
When practicing tantric alchemy, and there is a 'up-curve on intensity', can you predict when/where it finally flowers? I am curious because recently I have begun some Taoist meditation practices which involve 'charging' myself with energy, and then it's re-programming, and it has only come to the point of discomfort.

But then again, I'm assuming the pursuit should be painless. Which I also assume to be naive...



Very beautiful :)


Hi Kiorionis,


I'm assuming the pursuit should be painless

That may depend upon definition of "pain" or "painless". The whole thing is a cycle, the alchemical cycle, that is repeated over and over. So one is "exposed" to "energy" outside of their usual experience. Using EJ Gold's language this dose of "energy" triggers ones automatic response ("chronic reaction", "chronic" for short). One then digs out the trigger and releases/removes it to allow the "energy" to fully get through to one's self and integrating it. That "energy" is called "shaktipat" in certain forms and systems. It becomes information, knowledge, and in the end Wisdom. It happens in bearable steps and very systematically. The first thousands of times through the cycles it doesn't seem to make much difference. As one grows by taking the "energy", the "light" and making it "real" as part of our being as we bring it into the world over and over. The very energetic effect that causes a "compression" of the energy into the substance of being, ends one cycle and starts the next as the person then is once again exposed to energies that they were keeping out.


From the "shape" of the curve of increase of the energies, one can see where it is headed. At some point it goes "vertical" and (my word) "lases". Now there is a catch (isn't there always). One runs into Hero's Paradox. Instead one has to perform calculus and go to the limit instead of infinitely approaching it. One enters the chamber instead of seeing how close to the door they can get forever. There is then a new "reborn" being of a larger magnitude, and then it all starts again unless the person believes that they have "at last made it, reached the ultimate" and stop looking. That is the best I can describe it.


There are many ways to enter into the cycle. In the process one must face all their fears, everything that would come up at death, usually one blockage at a time. It's learning to "die before you die". As the person grows and evolves, the size of the steps increases.


This all affects one's life. Understanding changes, choices change and become more and more conscious. I've seen marriages break up very suddenly. I've seen new relationships happen at first glance.. EJ's advice is "Make no sudden moves" and to "treat all relationships with respect". As my partner and I are doing this together we are changing in similar and complementary ways. EJ again compares it to being in a rock tumbler as we each knock the rough edges off of each other.


can you predict when/where it finally flowers?


If I am understanding your usage her, it flowers over and over, at the end of each "grand cycle" or something like that. There is always that feeling "At LAST I HAVE MADE IT" at the end of these grand cycles. This is how I can describe it. Others will describe it differently but usually, If I am talking face to face and negotiating meaning, we can come to an agreement of the description at least in parts and pieces. Good luck.

Kiorionis
03-03-2015, 02:20 AM
III,
You have made some things much clearer for me. Thank you :)

Dragonsblood
03-03-2015, 08:45 AM
Personally find (at present level of experience) that the Mystical Experience is tied up with activity of the pineal - see the double peacock symbol around the massive pinecone at the entrance to the Vatican (terrestrial symbol of a Holy Place).
The two peacock tails open to form a circle (could be the Cauda Pavonis) and the so-created stargate allows travel without movement. The art of Alex Grey shows a shared vision of reality unveiled (perhaps to the limits of current incarnated consciousness)

Like a radio changing channels - it seems you can only "channel" that which within your ability to encompass/allow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvJuFTIgWH8&feature=player_embedded

So in terms of "cheating" whether a natural biological inclination to heightened pineal activity, sitting in darkness for 300+ hours, yoga disciplines, the jewel in the lotus / Dr Shroom / Master under the sprig of Acacia, or the seeds of potent symbols which grow in the sub/super conscious to birth a Mystical experience - all seem to be trunk, tail or leg of the same Elephant..

The shattering of the vessel / opening of the auric egg / emerging of the butterfly from the cocoon seems to be the final stage - the work being set into ferment (introduction of Life from outside the vessel) by these Mystical Experiences / contact with the Divine (IAM merging into ONE).

- He said with little experience and zero authority on the matter

Kiorionis
03-05-2016, 04:00 AM
- He said with little experience and zero authority on the matter

You're too modest ;)

I very much like your perspective, that mystical experiences are a catalyst to further development. Looking back on a few of mine now with my memory, they seem ordinary. But reading through my journal of the same memory gives quite a different quality. Much more excited and elated.

Maybe this means I've internalized them and made them part of my everyday reality...

For the sake of conversation, how does one go about fixing the mystical into their everyday reality?

------------------

And just to reiterate:

Not only am I curious what others think about the mystical experience as a goal in alchemy, I'm also curious in any opinions, ideas and/or comments on the subject of mystical experiences in any way, shape or form.

Kiorionis
03-05-2016, 06:00 AM
And in reviewing the thread:


Spiritual" implies something that could be religious, holy, profound, unexpected, or extraordinary. But why would we seek something that is totally different from our "ordinary" daily lives? Are we bored with our "normal" routines? Or are our "normal" routines really not what we should be pursuing?

I'll leave the interpretation of this post, based on the last, open for interpretation.

Kiorionis
03-22-2016, 03:14 AM
how would you define a 'mystical experience'?

http://themysticallife.com/sites/default/files/uploads/infinityface.jpg


The question still stands!

:cool:

aka bumpsky

Awani
03-22-2016, 08:16 AM
It dissolves all boundraries and is impossible to put into language.

:cool:

zoas23
03-22-2016, 12:58 PM
If an alchemical experience doesn't include a mystical experience, then it's worth nothing.

In my opinion, the alchemical experience doesn't even need to be "advanced", it can be something incredibly basic and simple like extracting Potassium Carbonate from a plant... and seeing how this beautiful salt was "hidden" there... and feeling a "mirror" sensation that goes from the plant to your own body and from your own body to the universe as a whole... and from the universe as a whole to "that" which has no name.

An image that changed a lot of my views and its description:
http://s12.postimg.org/lt4tuidwt/Captura_de_pantalla_2016_03_22_a_las_9_26_06_a_m.p ng

http://s12.postimg.org/xgyvp231p/Captura_de_pantalla_2016_03_22_a_las_9_26_42_a_m.p ng

The image is taken from Austin Spare's "Earth Inferno". The book is not about Alchemy... and yet it perfectly describes how I feel about this whole issue.

"Your reward is neither here nor after" is a phrase I adore.

Those who seek "the gain of the world" will end up being very disappointed, even if they manage to turn the whole world into Gold (though I don't see the need of living in a golden planet).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uu6Gq9zwh8

Blind belief ain't enough.
Alchemy is anoetic Gnosis.

I'm incredibly far from being a Fulcanelli or a Flamel (though I think that Flamel was very far from being a Flamel, but that's another issue)... but I've learnt that Alchemy is clearly NOT what happens inside the "flask"... it's something else (and I'm not a Jungian).

Defining alchemy as what happens inside the flask is very much like defining painting as a manipulation of pigments and brushes to create nice decorations. Is that what art is about? I don't think so.

Awani
03-22-2016, 06:59 PM
...it can be something incredibly basic and simple like extracting Potassium Carbonate from a plant...

I agree to some degree, but mostly I don't agree. I think your example might be what sets somebody on the path towards a mystical experience, or perhaps glimpse it. But the true mystical experience, IMO, changes your life in one single moment that can last for less than a second (or hours) and it is without question.

Watching Point Break and seeing people jump out of an airplane is not the same as jumping out of an airplane yourself.

Now very important: I am not dismissing anyone's mystical experience if they feel they have one in a way you describe above, but for ME it is not enough. It won't achieve the complete immersion into what some call the divine, which to me is the ultime mystical experience and the only one worth having.

This is my experience. And works for me. Not pissing on other peoples mystical experiences as I am sure they are valid to them.

It has to dissolve borders of the ego and the body. It has to be impossible to put into language. It has to be the culmination of your life up until that point. A simple alchemical process simply won't cut it on its own, but it can provide the path towards it. In my humble opinion that is 100% truth for me and cannot be questioned by anyone on pain of death. LOL!

:cool:

zoas23
03-22-2016, 10:04 PM
I agree to some degree, but mostly I don't agree. I think your example might be what sets somebody on the path towards a mystical experience, or perhaps glimpse it. But the true mystical experience, IMO, changes your life in one single moment that can last for less than a second (or hours) and it is without question.
(...)

It has to dissolve borders of the ego and the body. It has to be impossible to put into language. It has to be the culmination of your life up until that point. A simple alchemical process simply won't cut it on its own, but it can provide the path towards it. In my humble opinion that is 100% truth for me and cannot be questioned by anyone on pain of death. LOL!

I get which one is the problem here...
My mystical path definitely didn't begin with alchemy, but with other issues... and by the time I "arrived" to Lab alchemy, I was already "there".

So my own experience was and is *biased* by previous experiences.

I think you are right, if you take a random person from the street and you make him go through a very basic alchemical experiment (I insist on the extraction of a simple salt, because I am willingly trying not to make this idea become an issue of "High Alchemy" vs. "Very simple things")... then probably the reaction would be: "O.K., that's nice. Cool." and not much more.

So I was probably talking about my own experience that includes a life-story that precedes my experiences with alchemy... and I forgot about this "previous personal history" and made an universal statement, which is probably not accurate if I make it "universal".

Re: the dissolution of the Ego... this is a very personal opinion, but I think a lot of persons fall into a HUGE problem with this issue by misunderstanding its actual meaning. I've had big discussions with some members of this forum about this specific issue in the past and I won't get into them again... But it is my opinion that if someone begins to feel that he's somehow like an omniscient passive ghost that no longer interacts with the world and is a pure contemplative and inactive nothingness... then this person has taken a wrong turn somewhere in the path.

Awani
03-22-2016, 10:26 PM
So I was probably talking about my own experience...

That is all you can do! ;)


...omniscient passive ghost that no longer interacts with the world and is a pure contemplative and inactive nothingness... then this person has taken a wrong turn somewhere in the path.

In a way yes I agree with this. I said before that if someone assume they will not be reincarnated they are, IMO, doomed to be reincarnated. If you believe in reincarnation or not is beside the point... you can read that as an allegory as well.

So this is not what I mean by dissolving the ego. Sure it can cause detachment... but what is the greater outcome is the opposite: embracement... of all things... "good" and "bad"... it is not passive, nor is it apathetical... it is just accepting that some things are as they need to be. And the perspective one has of things is the way those things will effect us.

:cool:

Fishy
03-28-2016, 06:44 PM
interesting topic.

from my experience i would say "Soror mystica" is the trigger of my Mystical Experience.
which leads to the mystical wedding of alchemy, divine union.

Andro
03-28-2016, 07:28 PM
i would say "Soror mystica" is the trigger of my Mystical Experience.

Do you mean your girlfriend as the 'alchemical wedding' partner? Or your own 'inner' Soror Mystica?

Fishy
03-28-2016, 08:05 PM
Do you mean your girlfriend as the 'alchemical wedding' partner? Or your own 'inner' Soror Mystica?

'inner' Soror mystica.

Kiorionis
04-30-2016, 02:31 AM
It dissolves all boundraries and is impossible to put into language.

Quite right! Dissolving 'boundaries' is more interesting for me to contemplate right now then dissolving 'ego'. Funny how in order to dissolve boundaries, we have to connect with something -- the Divine, the One, etc -- which seems to necessarily establish a boundary... :confused:




In my opinion, the alchemical experience doesn't even need to be "advanced", it can be something incredibly basic and simple like extracting Potassium Carbonate from a plant... and seeing how this beautiful salt was "hidden" there... and feeling a "mirror" sensation that goes from the plant to your own body and from your own body to the universe as a whole... and from the universe as a whole to "that" which has no name.

My first legitimate experience with the mystical was something like this. Now, I'd put it at the lowest degree of experience, but still influential. I was rectifying some wine alcohol for a plant tincture, and suddenly I was consumed by the glasswork. It was my first experience of Union during lab work.





'inner' Soror mystica.

I'm glad you brought up the Mystical Sister. Especially with some threads recently developing towards the Androgynous.

My own experience with the Soror Mystica is scarce, but I recently read about an interesting ritual to manifest a better connection with her/him. I would say the interaction with her has been the one thing which has crossed boundaries. Meaning that, rather than myself rising to meet the mystical, the mystical has lowered to meet me.

Very curious

elixirmixer
06-12-2016, 11:19 PM
While we are all being a bit weird, I'd like to take this time to share some things with you all. I expect it to come under serious scrutiny and disbelief, nevertheless, these are things that through direct experience and observation, I have come to know to be true.

First of all, I will have to confess, and to many people's distaste no doubt, that God, Jehovah in Spirit, born Joshua of Nazareth, martyed Jesus the Christ, even the Eternal Father, does in reality speak with me. And quite often in truth. Im not completely sure as to why, other than He has a work for me to do, because I do not believe God to show any favouritism to any man, one over another, but responds equally to each man and his works.

And actually I retract that statement, I do know what has opened the communication channels... Faith.

I heard of God, read about these great Jewish men who showed a very high level of moral ethics and dedication towards God, and who claimed to have been rewarded with things like immortality and eternal life (two very different things). I wanted it. And I believed it to be possible. But that's not Faith. Faith is the moment that one takes action, based on a believed truth, having no evidence whatsoever of a result, nevertheless, expecting one. I fasted and prayed and studied the scripture's for 9 days with only water, to a God I had never met, in hope that I would know these things for myself (as opposed to being forcefully indoctrinated into false ways )Over time, and more steps in Faith, Faith turned belief into knowledge. And when I knew God was with me, then He started to speak with me. (This did not require any type of church, only belief in and on the Son of God, even God in the Flesh. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, being One God, Even the Eternal Father.

Now God has told me many things, He has answered all questions of mine, be this in His own time, not mine. Some instantly, some questions are answered through experience's that span many years.

But this I know for sure. 100% and with no doubt and not objectively or subjectively, for all men are effected by these conditions regardless of their awareness and regardless of how they have chosen to craft their mental world and I know these things to be indeffinate, and unyeilding to any other conditions set upon our reality.

So let me tell you the story of your lives... if you do have ears to hear.. and if one ear hears, I care not what the other 99 shall say:

"In the beginning God created heaven and earth. Now the earth was formless and void." hang on... doesn't mainstream Christianity claim that God created the world in 7 days? But here, in the very first two lines of the bible, we see a clear distinguishing between "In the beginning" and "Now". So let's go to the beginning shall we.

In pre-existance, when the earth was just an idea in God's mind (and it was exactly that, a thought) you were conceived of heavenly parents, even the Eternal Father, and your Mother of which whom's sacredness exceeds and is protected from this world, as a husband protects his wife, God keeps the identity of the Mother hidden. We all existed in a spirit form, in the highest place in the heaven's, the celestial kingdom, who's Glory is represented by the Sun, relative to the terrestrial kingdom who's Glory is represented by the moon, relative again to the telestial kingdom who's Glory is like unto the stars.

The Eternal Father proposed a plan, to decend these, His spirit children down to Earth, in order that they may receive their Body, and having done so, may return to Heaven, and having been perfected and prepared for Godhood themselves. After all, a lemon tree does not give birth to a donkey. And a donkey does not drop seeds of citrus, but in the seed of all is it's same type, and in time brings forth life, of the same form as it's parents before them. You have parents of the body and you are indeed like unto them in body, your Spiritual parents are of the highest divine royalty, and of their form and type you are called to be. Even Godhood.

Yet, (much like I've recently learnt through the volatilized salts experiments ) to return home, the body must be refined and made clean, before it can assend.

The Father warned that not all would be able to return because their vessels would become stained by something called sin. In fact, none would be able to returned unless they would first be cleansed by the sanctification of a pure and worthy sacrifice.

It was proposed that there should be a Christ, in fact, we were councelled of it's necessity. Many great and bold souls stood forth and pleaded their case as to why they suited the role of Redeemer, King of kings, Saviour of the whole world. Amongst them we see Lucifer Elohim, a spirit of high nobility, gifted in sound and music, linguistical and persuasive. His claim to fame sounded something like "I shall remove men's freewill, which you have given them, and I shall ensure that every one of them is saved, and let Your Glory be mine Father". This was an unsuccessful application.

Jehovah Elohim, a humble and meek spirit, nevertheless bold, with an unyielding loyalty to the Father, stepped forward and said "Let your will be done Father (give them their free will) and let the Glory be Yours. "

This was the accepted proposal and Jehovah, before the earth ever was, was declared Saviour and Redeemer of the world.

Lucifer was pissed. He campaigned a rebellion and a third of the heavens faught against the humble Lamb and His new election.

"NOW" Jehovah created the world and Lucifer and his minions were cast down to Earth, and because of their rebellion in the first instance, received not a body, but are spirits only, having opted out of their divinely intended purpose's. (God gives all form's of intelligence free will, to choose for themselves life eternal, or death everlasting) He will not force the hands.

So congrats everyone reading this today, you have passed the first test and are in the middle of your second.

Through calcination (repentance) dissolution (baptism )digestion (the 40 days of purification and development of the Spirit) you can pass through the black phase. I will not go through the other phase's at this stage, but know this, and it be the point and moral of this story:

You are here to learn as much as you are able concerning life, the universe, consciousness and in fact all aspects of our reality, and to the degree of light and knowledge (intelligence) that you gain in this life, so your advantage in the next; HOWEVER the light you receive, requires the purified vessel, cleanses by the blood of the Lamb. Without these cleansing processes (the salvation ordinances (I will highlight the entire process if what has already been said is respected enough and if my Father, Friend, King and Redeemer allow me) you cannot return to the celestial kingdom, to live with God again. It is impossible, for those who are found climbing the walls of the bridal chamber will be classed as a thief, and the intelligence they have obtained, shall be taken and given to another.

This is enough information for you to understand your purpose, regardless of objective experience's or non-experiences. Those evil spirits seek to inhabit your mind, and leed you away from God, and drag you down to be their slaves, to lust and hunger for earthly things, since without you they cannot experience it for themselves. They are miserable, and seek to make you miserable like unto them.

Do not take my word for any of this. Go. Fast. Pray. And with an open heart, ask of God, if these things are true. And the Holy Spirit will testify of these things, so that you may know them of yourself.

For your Father longs to speak with you, as He speaks with me, but He will not force your hand, but waits patiently for you to seek Him.

He lives. He died. And now He lives forever more.

God is the Master Alchemist. He plays nature like a piano. And what a symphony it is.

Please meditate on these words, for what good is the stone to obtain, only to have it taken from you again?

elixirmixer
06-12-2016, 11:47 PM
Practical alchemy is to teach you the 'phases' and to help purify the body ready for asention. The experience's are either to help you learn that there is a God, or to hold you accountable on the last day, so you will have no excuse in saying "how could I know there is a God, it was not shown to me!? " and the response from the 12 apostles will be "You were shown", and your mind will be called to recollect those experience's, and your guilt will condemn you.

Now there is more to the story... the salvation ordanices of baptism, Sacrament, the sacred union ect... these are required to enter into the celestial kingdom, where God dwells, but as you have already shown loyalty in your first instance, even if you refuse to be healed now, then for a time you are forced, you lock yourself to a great and incredible fire, to be calcined and burnt, purified in a much harsher way, then if you had chosen to do so while in the body. And then you will be placed into the terrestrial or telestial kindom (salvation through grace, not my works)

And that's how it is. No matter what your philosophy, you can't stop it. No one can, not even that great serpent of old.

(In the case of those who never had the opportunity to hear these things, they are judged based on whether or not they would have received them, for God knows the hearts of men.)

(All children who die before the age of accountability are taken to the celestial kingdom. "Let the children come to me, for so is the kingdom of heaven")

All men are saved by the atoning sacrifice of our Lord, yet while many are called to Gods house, few are chosen.

And I leave these things with you in the name of Jesus Christ. The Glory is His, and if there be scorn, He carries my burdens, and brings justice on the heads of those who would offend even the least of His little ones.

elixirmixer
06-13-2016, 12:04 AM
You will be held accountable further still for having read this and received this knowledge, I warn you of that indescribable fire, of which the horror you know not, and in doing so wash my hands of your blood.

Jesus Christ invites all men, everywhere, to come unto Him and be saved.

That correct authority to perform the ordinances of God, rests with the Levitical and Melchizedek priesthood's, which in our modern day can be found in the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. This organization was not created by men, but existed in the pre-existance, and on the earth even since the time of Adam and his sons. (removed from the earth during the "dark ages" and restored again though the profit Joseph Smith. I know these things to be true, through my own direct communication and NOT the endoctrination of men. Most these men seldom realise what they have, netalone are able to convince me of anything. It is the Holy Spirit who testifies to me these truth's, and it was the voice of God in my ears that solidified my knowing.

And if there be mistakes, they are my own, wherefore do not condemn the things of God.

In the name of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. Amen.

Kiorionis
06-13-2016, 01:13 AM
Thanks for sharing your experience, elixirmixir. Quite interesting.

ArcherSage
11-11-2016, 03:25 AM
Epiphanies are the result of the awakening process. Truths are not revealed, they are just known to the one receiving it.

Kiorionis
11-12-2016, 09:10 PM
Truths are not revealed, they are just known to the one receiving it.

Would you mind clarifying?
If you are receiving something (say, information), then how is this different from something being revealed?

Illen A. Cluf
11-12-2016, 10:05 PM
Epiphanies are the result of the awakening process. Truths are not revealed, they are just known to the one receiving it.

Close. I think that there is actually no such thing as "receiving" truths. I truly believe that we all have the truths already buried inside of us as some sort of collective subconsciousness. In my experience (yes, I truly believe that I have had actual epiphanies, one of which were far more profound than others), 'Epiphanies' are more like removing the veils that exist because of our social indoctrinations and physical extravagances to which we are all addicted. In most circumstances, at least initially, I do not believe that the removal of these veils happen by will, although I'm convinced that with the proper training, it could be induced. I have not yet found what training this could involve, although the undefined concept of 'meditation" seems to come close. The most potent of such epiphanies that I experienced happened during a state of extreme concentration and extreme enthusiasm. I felt like my entire body was "blushing" or "glowing". That's the best I can describe it as.

I have tried "meditating" since I was just a teenager, but could never enter these states willingly. When it did happen, it was totally unexpected, but was the most profound experience in my life. Unfortunately, it did not last for long (a day or so at most) and afterwards, much of the understanding disappeared. Only the memory of having experienced it and of having had access to unbelievable understandings persisted. Many of those understandings evaporated shortly afterwards, as if for an important purpose.

This is the absolute truth. I'm not exaggerating or making this up. I'm only saying this to inform others, and encourage others to help explain it, if possible. i usually don't dare to mention this to anyone, as I usually get attacked viciously for saying this. I'm not sure why, but I no longer care.

Andro
11-12-2016, 10:18 PM
We all have the truths already buried inside of us. In my experience [...] 'Epiphanies' are more like removing the veils that exist because of our social indoctrinations and physical extravagances.

Couldn't agree more.

BTW, what do you mean by 'physical extravagances'?

ArcherSage
11-12-2016, 10:20 PM
It is self revealed, not revealed by any other. A personal revelation.

Illen A. Cluf
11-12-2016, 10:33 PM
Couldn't agree more.

BTW, what do you mean by 'physical extravagances'?

I'm not sure - I said that by instinct. I do know that monks that spend years practicing meditation procedures insist that such things as pleasure derived from sex, food and other physical attractions that result in physical "pleasure" detract big time from the meditative state.

I'm no monk and enjoy these pleasures as much as, or far more than anybody. Perhaps that's why I can't willingly go into these meditative states. I do know that when, for example, I have not had sex (or release) for some time (luckily that doesn't happen often :-), I get all sorts of creative ideas and insights. I was actually a "virgin" until my early twenties, although I likely had (and still do) much more drive than the average. During that time, I had some incredible mystical experiences, some of the most intense in my life.

Kiorionis
11-14-2016, 01:58 AM
I do know that monks that spend years practicing meditation procedures insist that such things as pleasure derived from sex, food and other physical attractions that result in physical "pleasure" detract big time from the meditative state.

I agree with those monks ;)
Mysticism is one of my favorite pastimes. If you figure out the little tricks to quite the mind, it's actually pretty easy to "tune in" to various frequencies. Other frequencies are more difficult and require more effort, and a fair bit of chance. Maybe even help from the other side sometimes.

My own experience is similar to the monks' -- I've found that if the "creative fire" is kept in circulation inside the body, then the light of the mind has more fuel to work with. I also find it awakens a unique sort of creative intellect. Understanding abstract concepts, inspiration, and the like.

Kiorionis
11-14-2016, 02:07 AM
It is self revealed, not revealed by any other. A personal revelation.

Curious. I've found in my work that gnosis is always generated from an outside source, a sort of 'imbibition' so to say. I may have had the self-desire to pursue it, and I may understand it in my own way, but there has always been an external catalyst which prompted my "revelations" -- either from a book I read or a conversation with a friend.

I think it was Plato who wrote that all learning is just a remembering of something we were taught in the past (or something along those lines). Perhaps revelation and epiphanies and the mystical are just us remembering what we already know?

zoas23
11-14-2016, 03:40 AM
I think it was Plato who wrote that all learning is just a remembering of something we were taught in the past (or something along those lines). Perhaps revelation and epiphanies and the mystical are just us remembering what we already know?

Yes, Plato considered that the Truth is something stable and independent of time (it never changes)... and that our souls have been in touch with such absolute truth, but the process of birth involves forgetting everything.... but what we see in in the world (or conversations or books or whatever) can lead us to remember such truth that we already knew and have forgotten.
So he did not believe in "inventions", but rather in remembering something we knew before we were born.

(His theory is mostly that if we had not known something in the past -before birth-, then it would be impossible to know it in the future -i.e, whilst we are alive).

If you like classical gnoseology, I strongly suggest to read the part of the Enneads (Plotinus) that he dedicated to the Christian Gnostics... and compare the differences between the classical Christian Gnostic idea and the ideas of Plato (I suggest that source because it makes a very clear comparison, though, of course, biased against the Christian Gnostics).

Illen A. Cluf
11-14-2016, 04:56 AM
I agree with those monks ;)
Mysticism is one of my favorite pastimes. If you figure out the little tricks to quite the mind, it's actually pretty easy to "tune in" to various frequencies. Other frequencies are more difficult and require more effort, and a fair bit of chance. Maybe even help from the other side sometimes.

My own experience is similar to the monks' -- I've found that if the "creative fire" is kept in circulation inside the body, then the light of the mind has more fuel to work with. I also find it awakens a unique sort of creative intellect. Understanding abstract concepts, inspiration, and the like.

Totally agree. I could say much more, but whenever I do, I'm always met with total silence - or rejection. I've come to accept that the genuine "mystical experience" is only recognized by a very small minority, and that it's totally and completely personal in nature. Even this is saying too much, as it sounds like some type of exclusiveness - which it absolutely is not, but rather since it seems to infringe on some type of innate common psychological "uncomfortable zone", sometimes resulting in intense discomfort, anger, and rejection... I think it's FAR more common than people realize, but that there's some type of inner barrier that blocks these experiences shortly after they occur, resulting in subsequent denial and hostility to any mention of it. I've seen this first-hand. Why these common occurrences seem to be so intensely "blocked" and then "denied" by most, yet unblocked and accepted by so few is one of the deepest mysteries that I have not yet been able to fully unravel. I think it has a lot to do with our cultural upbringing, and also the degree to which we are truly independent of thought or influence by others. In other words, there seems to be a huge discrepancy in the level to which people are susceptible to a form of "brain washing" of willingness to 'belong" to a comnon way of perception. There's a huge fear in any initiative that explores thoughts and ideas that go contrary to common acceptance. The need for 'belonging" is an overly intense drive for most, which seems to block these otherwise unusual or "eccentric" perspectives from developing or being accepted. I'll stop here because I've likely already totally lost about 99% of the readers by now...

ArcherSage
11-14-2016, 02:58 PM
I was an atheist for a long time and doubted anything could be mystical in any way. It was not until I started astral projecting that I believed the spirit exists. Meditation is not merely sitting quietly for a while, it one can get in a deep enough state you can separate from the body. There is more than one way to do this, for some it is simply the mind detaching and going elsewhere, for others the spirit actually completely separates and is accompanied by what is called "the vibrational state", that all who astral projection experience. It is the feeling that the entire body is vibrating as if sitting on a motorcycle, but of course you aren't moving at all. This is the detachment process that you are feeling and once you experience it, you will know what it is..it is unlike anything you have ever felt. Once the separation is complete you will find yourself in what the sefirot refers to as Yesod, the mental plane of creation. It is this plane that all things are thought of before manifesting, so if one can actively exists in this plane, you would be able to manifest much easier than everybody else. Yesod is also the plane that Adam and Eve existed in before falling into the physical plane, and none can return to the garden unless they are able to separate from this plane. I believe this was the symbolism of the crucifixion of Christ, on the sefirot/trees of life/knowledge. With the crown of thorns representing the crown chakra, and the crown at the top of the sefirot. Of course the realm of yesod is put directly over the genital area, as this is the physical center of creation, but it is also the foundation stone for the spiritual temple, Yesod literally meaning foundation (note the person who made the image put foundation higher than it actually is) And Christ is standing on the lowest realm, the physical world, showing the path to the higher planes. The two thieves crucified on both sides are the tree of life, and the tree of knowledge, however the middle path is the only one that will result in enlightenment, with the mysterious "da-at" near the top middle. As he said, narrow/straight is the path and few find it. This is what I have gathered from my studies.
http://www.talentshare.org/~mm9n/articles/cosmos/7_files/7.htm15.jpg

Kiorionis
11-15-2016, 08:25 PM
Why these common occurrences seem to be so intensely "blocked" and then "denied" by most, yet unblocked and accepted by so few is one of the deepest mysteries that I have not yet been able to fully unravel. I think it has a lot to do with our cultural upbringing, and also the degree to which we are truly independent of thought or influence by others.

I would add that it also has a great deal to do with how much of our percieved-Self we're willing to sacrifice to know our "true" Self. And given the fact that a "complete" self is the unity of the Good and the Bad. Not many people are willing to accept their faults and their past.

On the more mystical side of things, IMO, if the duality of Self isn't taken into account, the Unity a monk or a mystic is searching for will never come to fruition



The need for 'belonging" is an overly intense drive for most, which seems to block these otherwise unusual or "eccentric" perspectives from developing or being accepted. I'll stop here because I've likely already totally lost about 99% of the readers by now...

Haha I studied social psychology for awhile, and I agree with what you've said.