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sam
01-28-2015, 07:04 PM
Someone here suggested this might be a valuable text to translate from German.

We took the trouble to transcribe it and translate a brief portion - it turned out to be a likely disingenuine text. Therefore we did not pursue any further translation.
For those interested I have made available what we have so far:


http://alchemie.m31.de/vitriol-pdf.html

-sam

JDP
01-28-2015, 10:04 PM
Someone here suggested this might be a valuable text to translate from German.

We took the trouble to transcribe it and translate a brief portion - it turned out to be a likely disingenuine text. Therefore we did not pursue any further translation.
For those interested I have made available what we have so far:


http://alchemie.m31.de/vitriol-pdf.html

-sam

That "someone" was me, and your opinions about the text aside, I did not give you permission to make public the translation of the first experiments, which I gave you as a sample. I did not publish your still uncorrected translation of the first half of the discourse on vitriols without your permission either, so the least I expect is the same courtesy.

sam
01-29-2015, 06:36 AM
of course you did, you even gave me permission to use it for a book, should I quote your email here?

but for me you are a case closed, and you know why. if you want to discuss your -putting it mildly- psychological dilema openly, be my guest.

ah, heck, you are not worth the trouble - I deleted your 4 pages and re-uploaded.


-sam

JDP
01-29-2015, 11:32 AM
of course you did, you even gave me permission to use it for a book, should I quote your email here?

but for me you are a case closed, and you know why. if you want to discuss your -putting it mildly- psychological dilema openly, be my guest.

ah, heck, you are not worth the trouble - I deleted your 4 pages and re-uploaded.


-sam

I never said anything about publication, it was clearly stated in the emails and even right here that I would share the translation of the experiments with you (in exchange for a translation of the first part of the text), and also with whoever else wanted to contribute to the project. But since no one else showed any interest it was obviously to be a project between the both of us.

The feeling is mutual. It is simply impossible to work with a person like you who just won't listen to reason and common sense and also has a hard time keeping up with agreements.

sam
01-29-2015, 11:51 AM
The feeling is mutual. It is simply impossible to work with a person like you who just won't listen to reason and common sense and also has a hard time keeping up with agreements.

well, before badmouthing me you should take a look into a mirror. you did not listen to reason all along, what common sense you may have wasnt apparent to me and the agreement we had was that I provide an equally long translation for your 4 pages.
I in fact provided a DOUBLE as long one, and while you may feel unsatisfied with the quality I did say I would only do a Q&D until the lab gave green light, which it didnt - so all you did was on purpose or because of lack of capacity missunderstand my pretty clear announcements. at no point did I break any agreements.

why in the world would I want to waste any more time with a fraudulent text?

so case closed - if you need any more clarification pm me and I will answer as time permits.

-sam

JDP
01-29-2015, 12:17 PM
well, before badmouthing me you should take a look into a mirror. you did not listen to reason all along, what common sense you may have wasnt apparent to me and the agreement we had was that I provide an equally long translation for your 4 pages.
I in fact provided a DOUBLE as long one, and while you may feel unsatisfied with the quality I did say I would only do a Q&D until the lab gave green light, which it didnt - so all you did was on purpose or because of lack of capacity missunderstand my pretty clear announcements. at no point did I break any agreements.

why in the world would I want to waste any more time with a fraudulent text?

so case closed - if you need any more clarification pm me and I will answer as time permits.

-sam

Hmmm, no, at first you wanted me to just send you all the translation of the experiments part, which, as I told you, had already been reviewed and corrected, and you indeed liked the quality of the sample I sent you. I did keep my part of the agreement. When you finally (after quite a bit of arguing on your part) realized that what you were proposing was not a fair exchange, then you finally agreed to actually translate part of the text and then sent it to me, which I reviewed and sent back to you with comments and questions, which you then refused to give any feedback on (exactly why you are so reluctant to do so is still a total mystery, considering it is in fact for the benefit of the final product.) That's the reason why the project did not progress beyond this point. I don't see why you keep trying to bring any third party here (some mysterious "lab" people who apparently seem to control all your moves) since you and I were the only ones involved.

Regarding the "fraudulent" qualification: the text is no more or less "fraudulent" than any other text on the same subject. I don't see why the claims of this author are any more or less suspicious than the ones from other texts on the subject of "vitriols" supposedly being the gate to the secret of the Philosophers' Stone.

PS: I actually even discovered who is the main source for the claims that the anonymous author of this text used, which we could have further worked on to see if they shed any more light on them, but since you are so stubborn and difficult to work with I guess you will never find out now. It is a shame, because I actually was able to discover this thanks in part to your translation of the first half of the discourse part of the text, which information I would have gladly shared with you and possibly also worked on to have translated as a complementary source of information on this text's claims.

JDP
02-01-2015, 03:57 PM
For all those interested in seeing a sample of the problems with "sam's" translations and how he "deals" with them, here is the file I sent him after I read his translation of the first 13 pages of this book, formatted as a double-column document, with German transcription and his English translation side-by-side for better comparison (my initiative; he sent me the transcription and translation in separate documents), with my notes, comments & proposed corrections in 3 different highlight colors (see legend at the end of the document for what these colors represent):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/exp2fbzqcp058xx/Transcription%20and%20translation%20of%20pages%203 %20to%2016.doc?dl=0

Now, you would think that as a translator he would welcome this kind of feedback and be eager to discuss it and improve his own work, but to my surprise it was actually quite the opposite. He shows no inclination or interest whatsoever in polishing his own work and keeps pulling up bizarre excuses (like needing permission from some mysterious "lab person", or all of a sudden arbitrarily deciding that the text is "fake" out of his whim & fancy) not to do so. In fact, the file he submitted to the forum is still uncorrected. He did not bother to go over it in all this time (this attempt at cooperating with him in a translation happened about 3 weeks ago.) I rest my case.

sam
02-01-2015, 04:31 PM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/exp2fbzqcp058xx/Transcription%20and%20translation%20of%20pages%203 %20to%2016.doc?dl=0

Now, you would think that as a translator he would welcome this kind of feedback and be eager to discuss it and improve his own work, but to my surprise it was actually quite the opposite.

JDP, THIS TEXT I gave you for FREE - it was just an act of GRACE on my part. I might have just stopped right there when suspicion arose that the text is a fraud, after I finished the transcript, but I did this translation FOR YOUR BENEFIT nonetheless, so you may also see the light (remember: I do speak german, I dont need it!)

I told you **from the start** that we work as a group and the I am the translator and that the lab would have the final word in evaluating a text.

There was never any uncertainty about it. So OBVIOUSLY and stated CLEARY AND **REPEATEDLY** you where informed that my grace-translation had NO CHANCE of ever even being LOOKED AT again, much less dealing with your long list of "improvements" once it was stamped "worthless" by the lab (and me - we concure).

Your entire rap about me being not interested etc. etc. is complete BULLSHIT when it comes to my books - of which you announced to have a LIST OF FAULTS which I am still WAITING FOR.

so get on with it and send me that list - do with the vitriol thing what you want, I have spent the better part of a week with the USELESS transcription and partial translation which I have MADE AVAILABLE FOR EVERYBODY -- UNLIKE YOU - screaming and yelling but not delivering - where is YOUR translation for everybody to look at? But you are just talk, talk and more talk -- a timewaster par excellance.

JDP
02-01-2015, 09:13 PM
JDP, THIS TEXT I gave you for FREE - it was just an act of GRACE on my part. I might have just stopped right there when suspicion arose that the text is a fraud, after I finished the transcript, but I did this translation FOR YOUR BENEFIT nonetheless, so you may also see the light (remember: I do speak german, I dont need it!)

I told you **from the start** that we work as a group and the I am the translator and that the lab would have the final word in evaluating a text.

There was never any uncertainty about it. So OBVIOUSLY and stated CLEARY AND **REPEATEDLY** you where informed that my grace-translation had NO CHANCE of ever even being LOOKED AT again, much less dealing with your long list of "improvements" once it was stamped "worthless" by the lab (and me - we concure).

Your entire rap about me being not interested etc. etc. is complete BULLSHIT when it comes to my books - of which you announced to have a LIST OF FAULTS which I am still WAITING FOR.

so get on with it and send me that list - do with the vitriol thing what you want, I have spent the better part of a week with the USELESS transcription and partial translation which I have MADE AVAILABLE FOR EVERYBODY -- UNLIKE YOU - screaming and yelling but not delivering - where is YOUR translation for everybody to look at? But you are just talk, talk and more talk -- a timewaster par excellance.

No, you gave me that "raw" translation AFTER you finally admitted that it was YOUR TURN to give me at least a sample of your translation, since I had already sent you a sample of mine also for FREE. But then you refused to go over the review and possible corrections to your own translation (mine did not need this, since my translator and I had already reviewed and agreed on all corrections that we deemed necessary; what I sent you was not a "raw" translation.)

Sorry, I don't buy these excuses for a second. Maybe if you were a 10 year old kid I would "buy" them, but I happen to know that you are a grown up man. Needing "permission" from some mysterious "lab person" to go over your very own translation is just infantile. You might as well tell me that you need permission from your parents. And regarding the "it's a fraud" excuse: really? Then why were you so interested in me sending you the rest of my translation? Also, unless you already know how to make the Philosophers' Stone (in which case you would hardly be bothering to try to make a profit from translations), I fail to see how can you be so sure that the text is a "fraud". I might as well tell you that the "13 Secret Letters" are a "fraud" too. Who knows. No one here is an "adept". Claims are just claims until put to the test, then one can more confidently assert whether they work or not. And I seriously doubt that you have already tried to put the claims of that "vitriol" text to the test. Until about only 3 weeks ago you did not even know about the existence of this text.

We were going to go over the list of problems in the "13 Secret Letters" translation AFTER we finished with the vitriol text. But your attitude prevented the work from being completed.

True Initiate
02-01-2015, 09:45 PM
I have been through translation hell with Thesaurus Thesaorum which you can find on Vitriol publishing website, i know how hard it is. If i may suggest that when you a working on a translation of the text then concetrate only on text translation and not what results gives in a lab. Those recipes are not working anyway and anybody should figure them out for themselves.

crestind
02-01-2015, 09:56 PM
TI, you were the one who translated the Thesaurus Thesaurorium on Mr. SbCl5 is the one true alkahest's site?

sam
02-02-2015, 03:13 AM
I have been through translation hell with Thesaurus Thesaorum which you can find on Vitriol publishing website, i know how hard it is. If i may suggest that when you a working on a translation of the text then concetrate only on text translation and not what results gives in a lab. Those recipes are not working anyway and anybody should figure them out for themselves.

Hi Initiate, "the lab" in this context means the person running the lab, it does not mean that experiments where attempted. But this person has the most experience and is much better positioned to eval the text than I am. Also: another member of our group voiced the exact same sentiment and he is a 40+ year alchemist. That makes 3 of us. Now, if ANYONE here comes to a different conclusion (except of course JDP who came up with this crap in the first place and now defends it tooth and nail) I am willing to reconsider, as I said, but ONLY if clear proof is given.

-sam

sam
02-02-2015, 04:11 AM
We were going to go over the list of problems in the "13 Secret Letters" translation AFTER we finished with the vitriol text. But your attitude prevented the work from being completed.

timewaster, make your translation available like I did - then we can see if anyone shares your sentiments. for now you are just wasting EVERYBODIES time with your whining and not delivering.

JDP
02-02-2015, 05:28 AM
timewaster, make your translation available like I did - then we can see if anyone shares your sentiments. for now you are just wasting EVERYBODIES time with your whining and not delivering.

The one who keeps wasting time with unconvincing excuses not to go over and correct your own translation is you. I told you that I would share my translation of the experiments part of the text with you once we would have a translation of the first part of the text. So it is you who never fully carried out his part of the agreement. The first 13 pages you translated are still awaiting review and final approval.

PS: and be thankful that I actually posted my review, comments and proposed corrections to your "raw" translation so that others can see that they do indeed improve it and that the only one being unreasonable and stubborn is you, not me.

True Initiate
02-02-2015, 05:32 AM
TI, you were the one who translated the Thesaurus Thesaurorium on Mr. SbCl5 is the one true alkahest's site?

I have started the project after i obtained the originals but i didn't wished to publish it but it was Mr. SbCl5 idea to publish it. In all honesty R+C Alkahests are revealed in those texts and it is salts of antimony and mercury. They can be chlorides, nitrates and even sulphates depending on the Path. This is truly what those texts teach and i am sure many will be dissapinted but it is how it is.

JDP
02-02-2015, 05:41 AM
Hi Initiate, "the lab" in this context means the person running the lab, it does not mean that experiments where attempted. But this person has the most experience and is much better positioned to eval the text than I am. Also: another member of our group voiced the exact same sentiment and he is a 40+ year alchemist. That makes 3 of us. Now, if ANYONE here comes to a different conclusion (except of course JDP who came up with this crap in the first place and now defends it tooth and nail) I am willing to reconsider, as I said, but ONLY if clear proof is given.

-sam

Again, those are just your opinion and supposedly that of a couple of people you know. Since none of you are "adepts", it is just that: your opinion, not a final verdict. Anyone can easily say the exact same thing about either of the texts you translated and published: they are "frauds". See how easy is to give a purely gratuitous opinion?

And judging by the fact that you have a bit of trouble understanding some of the claims in these old books (like "gradating" acids), as seen in your translation of the "13 Secret Letters", what makes you think that either you or those two other people you claim agree with you actually have a proper understanding of what the author of this "vitriol" text is claiming?

I am not defending anything "tooth and nail". To me it's a very simple matter of gathering information from as many sources as possible. For me all the claims in these old texts are about as plausible or implausible as the next one, that is until an opportunity has been had to try to put them to the test. Then you can more assuredly say whether any given claim is bogus or not. Before that happens, nothing is certain.

JDP
02-02-2015, 06:18 AM
I have been through translation hell with Thesaurus Thesaorum which you can find on Vitriol publishing website, i know how hard it is. If i may suggest that when you a working on a translation of the text then concetrate only on text translation and not what results gives in a lab. Those recipes are not working anyway and anybody should figure them out for themselves.

Indeed, that is sound advice for translators. The translator's business should be first and foremost to concentrate on providing a good translation. The important thing is to provide to readers the claims contained in a text in as accurate a manner as possible. But good luck trying to convince "sam" about it. He is not exactly the most logically minded person around.

Salazius
02-02-2015, 10:17 AM
In all honesty R+C Alkahests are revealed in those texts and it is salts of antimony and mercury. They can be chlorides, nitrates and even sulphates depending on the Path.

This is right and it was largely used.