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Andro
01-30-2015, 06:02 PM
I am currently attempting to come up with a 'system' of sorts to 'solve' all these translation-related dilemmas.

I have so far located two Professional Translators (one from German to English and the other one from French to English), who are also Alchemists and also connected with other Alchemists for double/triple checking. The work of the first translator (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2855-Hermes-Trismegistus-Old-and-True-Natural-Path-now-available-in-English) already speaks for itself (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4139-NEW-Translation-Thirteen-Secret-Letters), the second translator (who is NOT a member of this Forum) still needs to be verified.

First, a text is chosen, one in which more than just a small handful of people are interested in.
The text should also be one that the translator agrees to work on, with all the much needed dedication.

If it works out, what I suggest is to create a 'pool' of compensation money (somewhat similar to crowdfunding).
The asked amount would be decided by the people involved with the actual work (i.e. the Translator/s, etc).

The asked amount will be made public, a special account would be established and entrusted to someone that all parties agree to consider trustworthy & reliable, and the interested parties will 'donate'/'support this account' until the specified amount is reached, to make sure that nobody looses money AND that a good translation results.

If the amount is met within an established time frame, an approximate deadline would be set and the work would commence.

AFTER the translation job is done, the money from the 'trust' account is transferred to the Translator/s and the Translation is uploaded to the Internet, where everyone can download it 'for free', thanks to the support of the Patrons who donated to the account.

IF, however, the amount is not reached, the donations would be returned to the Patrons and the translation will simply not happen.

The translations would also be in simple PDF format (no hard copies), thus bypassing printing houses/costs, shipping and middle-man fees.

Some sort of contractual agreement could also be drawn, to pre-eliminate any possible breaches and/or misunderstandings.

This concept is not quite polished yet, it's just a raw draft, but I would be interested to hear if you guys think such an arrangement could actually work out.

Illen A. Cluf
01-30-2015, 06:22 PM
This concept is not quite polished yet, it's just a raw draft, but I would be interested to hear if you guys think such an arrangement could actually work out.

The general concept sounds interesting. The only problem (as always) is base (crass) human nature - the huge percentage of people who want anything for free, even if they can afford some sponsorship. Rather than contributing a few dollars (coffee money) to support the cause, they rely on others to sponsor their own selfish needs. Thus they will wait for it to become free rather than make even a token contribution. That really limits the amount of sponsors who don't feel like sponsoring the selfish.

Thus it might be better to password protect the final PDF, and if anyone wants a copy, they pay a small nominal, affordable fee (say $5), plus sign an agreement not to share the document with others, for the password. The sum of the small fees could go back to help sponsor the next project.

Just thinking out loud.

Illen

Andro
01-30-2015, 06:39 PM
Good ideas, Illen!

This was the kind of development I was hoping for...

As I said, I just suggested a 'draft'... It's open to improvements!


Thus it might be better to password protect the final PDF, and if anyone wants a copy, they pay a small nominal, affordable fee (say $5), plus sign an agreement not to share the document with others, for the password.

Yet, since you mentioned 'human nature', there would (most likely) always be someone who will (maybe) pay the small fee and then put it up for 'free' download...

That's why I suggested the 'arrangement' the way that I did, also hoping that if a small (but significant enough) number of potential Patrons is interested, we could bypass the rest of the 'human nature' factor altogether...

Kiorionis
01-30-2015, 08:48 PM
Have you ever heard of Kickstarter? (https://www.kickstarter.com/)

It is similar to the idea presented in you OP Andro.

A friend of mine used it to produce one of his music albums. The idea is, whoever is interested donates money and if enough is raised by the 'deadline', then the funds are transfered. If not, then the project isn't funded. Apparently he was satisfied with how it worked.

At least that's how I remember it being explained. Might be a system worth looking into to cover the cost of translation/publication.

Illen A. Cluf
01-30-2015, 08:58 PM
That's why I suggested the 'arrangement' the way that I did, also hoping that if a small (but significant enough) number of potential Patrons is interested, we could bypass the rest of the 'human nature' factor altogether...

Yeah, I realized that, but thought that the small fee wouldn't really hurt anybody and would encourage more sponsors and also help to support additional projects. Even though one or two may be unethical, break their promise and share the document publicly, hopefully there would still be enough others supporting the project to help build the pot a little. Also, it would be more difficult to admit (and share) the existence of a password than it would if the document did not have one. More people would likely think twice about either sharing or receiving a password-protective document than one that was not protected. Thus it wouldn't prevent, but at least limit unethical distribution. Think of it as similar, in a way, to renting a Movie DVD. The minimal fee allows one to borrow and watch a DVD that others have paid a lot more to own. Some people will still copy it and give it to others, but there will still be enough ethical people who will rent it for the small fee. In this case, people will even be able to own it for the small fee.

JDP
01-30-2015, 09:04 PM
Speaking from lots of experience on the subject, I can say that finding a professional translator who has a very good knowledge of both English and German and can provide an adequate translation of old German texts, specially on alchemy and chymistry, is VERY difficult. It took me several years to find just two of them who performed well enough for me to hire them, and even then I had to basically still "train" them to get familiar with the "lingo" of alchemy/chymistry.

Andro
01-30-2015, 09:38 PM
1. No one is 'at the helm'. Perhaps we can see it more as a joint effort/Cooperation.

2. No one is forcing anyone to participate.

3. I have suggested two possible translators for this potential enterprise. They are the only ones I know. If there are others, let them come forward... or be introduced...

4. If there are issues of a more personal nature between previously involved parties, PM is the way to go.
The non-personal (professional-related) position has been clarified from JDP's side.
For strictly professional-related issues with the specific translations, please go to the threads dealing with the respective texts (not on this thread, please).
Also, 'Reason' and 'Common Sense' can often be very relative/subjective terms - so no need for 'name calling'.

5. Personally, I don't believe in such a thing as a 'perfect' translation. Even 'normal' texts are often difficult to translate, let alone the multi-layered lingo of 'Hermeneutics'...

6. Maybe we can evolve from this, and, instead of 'finding fault', actually try to cooperate harmoniously, put egos aside, on ALL involved sides, and get better results in doing so.

7. Maybe 2 (or more) translators could even work together on a project... There are lots of options, we just need to be open to them...
______________________________________________
Or maybe this whole thing was a bad idea to begin with...

JDP
01-31-2015, 02:23 AM
1. No one is 'at the helm'. Perhaps we can see it more as a joint effort/Cooperation.

Obviously one or two of the translators will have to be the one/s coordinating the projects, and therefore "at the helm", so to speak.


2. No one is forcing anyone to participate.
I know, but for the benefit of all people who might be interested (including myself) I thought these comments I wrote ought to be considered.



Also, 'Reason' and 'Common Sense' can often be very relative/subjective terms - so no need for 'name calling'.In some contexts there is no such "relativity", logic and common sense are one and only one anywhere and by the standards of anyone in his right mind. In this case, if a translator refuses to go over his own translation to attempt to correct whatever problems there may be in his work, and he/she is fully aware that his/her product is not perfect, then that translator is not working according to common sense and logic.

And it is not "name-calling". I attempted to work with "sam" on a translation recently and I found him refusing to work in an appropriate manner for a translator, making unreasonable demands and refusing to go over his own work. That's why our "experiment" in such cooperation work did not get any farther.


5. Personally, I don't believe in such a thing as a 'perfect' translation. Even 'normal' texts are often difficult to translate, let alone the multi-layered lingo of 'Hermeneutics'...Neither do I, therefore the more reason to be very cautious of working with someone who does not want, or needs "permission" from mysterious third parties, to go over his own translations after they have been reviewed and feedback sent back to him for discussion and possible correction or improvement.


6. Maybe we can evolve from this, and, instead of 'finding fault', actually try to cooperate harmoniously, put egos aside, on ALL involved sides, and get better results in doing so.It's fine with me, but I am not the one who needs an attitude or work-plan change. I have been working with German and Arabic translators for years now. I know very well how to work with them, and there simply is no better way than the one described above, specially for complicated subjects like alchemy & chymistry: translator makes preliminary translation, submits it for review, gets feedback, answers questions/comments, if necessary corrections are made, and finally a more polished translation is arrived at. This is the best modus operandi. Anyone refusing to work like this simply does not have what it takes to be a good translator.



Or maybe this whole thing was a bad idea to begin with...The idea is good, I have been proposing it for years, but it's just too difficult to get enough people who will contribute. As Illen A. Cluf explained before, most people lose interest quickly as soon as it starts involving their pockets. Unfortunately for those who want everything for free, translations do not grow on trees, so it is absolutely necessary to invest time and money to get them done.

Illen A. Cluf
01-31-2015, 04:09 AM
Or maybe this whole thing was a bad idea to begin with...

No, as a past and potential contributor to several books, I think that it's a necessary topic that's long overdue. My main surprise is that only four of us have joined this discussion so far - I'm very thankful to the three of you. I suspect that most members are likely bored at work and only post there on Company time and therefore we see so few posts on weekends from the more serious students of the art. Also, so few seem to realize the amount of effort and devotion that authors take to make material available to them, since most of it has become free after some individuals break authors' conditions or Copyright Protection to distribute works, thereby removing much potential opportunity for authors to recover their costs. This applies to other media as well, such as music and movies. There's widespread copying of Copyright material, causing products to increase sharply in price and discouraging many authors and artists from publishing.

As mentioned earlier, that is one reason why we currently hesitate to publish the "Recreations Hermetiques and Scholies" (which provides a most valuable perspective) and other works in progress. The concerns discussed by a previous author of the "Thirteen Secret Letters" is a real concern. Human greed is also a real concern, and from my perspective it has increased sharply over the last few decades as selfish greed increases and moral ethics decreases. It's great to maintain a positive attitude with respect to human behavior, but that positive attitude has done nothing to improve the situation over the years. Tolerance has only made it worse. People now EXPECT and DEMAND others to slave for them for free so that they can benefit their lazy asses while the contributor spends countless hours of time, resources and money of his/her own to provide that benefit for the greedy-minded, often without so much as a "Thank you". I know, because it has already happened to me numerous times. The more you share, the more that people take advantage of you and abuse the conditions of that sharing. I don't mind making material available for others, but I do mind when it continually costs me (and other authors/translators) plenty of personal time, resources and money to do so, especially when often there is almost no appreciation whatsoever.

I have therefore only tended to share the results of much of my work over the years amongst a few trusted friends. I wish it could be otherwise, but as you can see, only the four of us, out of what, hundreds of members?, have even bothered to share our thoughts.

Let's hope that others will join in with their thoughts.

sam
01-31-2015, 04:19 AM
Hi Andro,

I see you churned on our little discussion re: crowdfunding. Very good. I have of course also digested the stuff but haven't come up with a fully satisfying (or rather polished enough) version for public consumption, so for today I wont discuss it here any further.

IF there are issues with any of my books / translation I am more than willing to look at them and of course let necessary correction be made to the book(s). Anyone going to the respective LULU page can see that "Naturweg" is now in its 14th incarnation, so quite a few changes have already be made.

I hope to find time tomorrow to work on my crowdfunding version and will then add this here as appropriate. Today our little group has a Skype discussion round for which I have yet to translate a longish text, so that has priority.

-sam

Dendritic Xylem
01-31-2015, 08:03 AM
I wish it could be otherwise, but as you can see, only the four of us, out of what, hundreds of members?, have even bothered to share our thoughts.

Let's hope that others will join in with their thoughts.

There are others interested in this discussion...but not all of us have something constructive/productive to add to the thread. So I'm eagerly lurking. :o

Andro
01-31-2015, 09:41 AM
I have carefully read everyone's input so far, and of course there are lots of valid points on all sides.

I am well aware of the ethical angle (of scanning/uploading after someone else has done all the work), but what I am much more concerned with, is to have a 'system' in place that achieves these two main goals:

1. Obtain high quality translations of well-chosen and sought-after texts.

2. Make sure that the ones actually doing the work are duly compensated, within an adequate framework of 'checks and balances'.

Everything else is (IMO) up for discussion and rectification - ethically, professionally, logistically and inter-personally.

So why don't we bury old hatches, admit we're not 'perfect' and that there is no 'one single/best way' to accomplish this, start a new page and actually attempt to COOPERATE and get good results.

I'm eagerly looking forward to more input/ideas on how to actually implement this, iron out the differences of opinion/perspective and make this suggested project a 'reality'.

And I mean it in the most 'practical' way. As in 'result-oriented' :)

I'm grateful to everyone who has responded so far, and I hope more will join in with ideas and suggestions that we can actually discuss and implement.

Thank you!

Salazius
01-31-2015, 11:12 AM
I think this is a very nice idea.

It's not an easy project, but it worth the pain.

RAMS is already doing this, but the translators work for free. Here it complicates the things because it is not the case.

So, we need a special team, a dedicated page, and a system to sell, afterward, the translation to all person who want a copy.

My preference for such thing is paperback LULU printing. On demand only. Or, a house made print and binding, sent by mail. I know it is not cheap, but the fact is that a translation is not cheap.

Not pdfs. A password can be given with the pdf and the result is that we gather no funds for the future translations.

One person should be in europe for the printing, and another one or two, for US.
They will, of course, have the expenses, mailing, and work covered.

I suggest that everything must be under only one flag, like "AlchemyForums Translations" (AFT) or something alike. My opinion is that the community and the forum should be linked to such thing.

-------------
I have, on my side, a french translator able to translate german and old german into french. But I guess it is not relevant here since you want english versions.
This person works for publishing house (Sesheta Editions) and works very well.

So this person could probably help for some technical terms.
--------------

Another option would be this :

Only the persons interested on the books/paper to translate will give money for the translator. The more we are, the less the price by person will be high. They get their copy/pdf, whatever.

If people are interested afterward by such a books, they'll pay for a paper version/printed (less susceptibe to be pirated/copied and share freely). The money will be splited unto the first "sponsors" up to the point they are refunded.

When refunded, the money of such sales are given for future translations or for the forum expenses.

------------
I was also thinking about such a "purse" for the AlchemyForums Congresses, because some of us are very far and spend a lot of money in the travelling.

sam
01-31-2015, 11:37 AM
Have you ever heard of Kickstarter? (https://www.kickstarter.com/)

It is similar to the idea presented in you OP Andro.


From my own experience I have to agree with the "base human nature" argument.

The "crowdfunding" model however would defy such behavior by design. The translator would ONLY work if the TOTAL amount is already in the pot so to speak.
It would be a nice extra to then also publish it as a printed work and sell it, but even if that eventually got scanned and uploaded for "free" nobody would be unduly hurt (like I was in the Naturweg case).

I would also suggest to make the printed version EXPENSIVE rather than cheap. I have observed that people who know the value of this work are willing to shell out 50 or even 100 bucks for a book whichs translation, if done solely for them, would cost 20 times that money. The cheap characters will never pay that kind of money (unless they create a mafia style cooperation - but thats far fetched). Thats saves us from "uploads" indefinitely.

However, I would also consider that after a grace period, may that be 5 or even 10 years, the document should be made available for free thru RAMS or a similar function.

As much as I disagree with JDP on other issues, here we will likely have common ground, as he has paid heftily for his translations AFAIK. And on another issue: There should be a coordinator - if not this will likely not really take off as in my own experience over 6 decades functional services work thru responsible people and "socialism" usually doesnt work very well.

Because I am one of the 2 translators Andro pointed at and because I am a "computer guy" with my own server and some 20 years experience in server management I could easily install crowdfunding software exclusively for alchemical purposes. There are various versions, some are even free (but I had a look and the paid versions do offer many advantages so I would go for that because it saves a lot of time in the long run).

If someone else out there wants to do it - no problem. I am interested to get the dice rolling, even if another person owns the dice :-)

-sam

sam
01-31-2015, 11:53 AM
........
When refunded, the money of such sales are given for future translations or for the forum expenses.

------------
I was also thinking about such a "purse" for the AlchemyForums Congresses, because some of us are very far and spend a lot of money in the travelling.

I would disagree. The function should be free of any mandatory association with this or any other forum. There are quite a few forums out there and a translation will need all the support it can get. Undue loyalties to one platform can only hinder here. also forums do die. Translators also die but usually at a later date. The copyright remains with the translator unless its a paid contract work (which is wont be if done thru crowdfunding). Unless its not crowd but forum-members-funding which I would not support for reasons mentioned above.

This is how crowd funding works: you basically DONATE funds, which are only paid back in case the work is NEVER done. If, however it IS done you receive your PERK, which in this case obviously would be the printed book.
For that reason there must also be a minimum amount for any entry into the funding system, which should reflect the later market price of the book, which, for reasons mentioned above, should be relatively high.

So we basically set up a system where people WHO KNOW THE VALUE OF THE WORK come together to make it happen for their immediate own gain, and at a much later point in time, to the gain OF THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY (after said 5 or 10 years).

I think that would be very workable as approach - say my "fee" for the Naturweg would be $ 2000,-, which is relatively low considering the work, only 20 people would have to pay $ 100,-. If we can not come up with 20 people the work is likely not worth the effort.

Of course if there is one rich patron who wants the book, no matter what, he can just chip in the total or missing amount and be done with it.

-sam

Andro
01-31-2015, 12:03 PM
To Salazius: Too complicated IMO.

Lulu, printing costs, etc... all this can be bypassed, and this has been already tried before, with the translators loosing money.

So I still say:

FIRST raise the funds for currently pending projects.

IF the funds are raised by the Patrons, then the work begins, not otherwise.

Once the work is finished and checked, the funds are transferred to the translator/s.

The work is uploaded in PDF form. Whoever wants a hard copy, can go to LULU/elsewhere and have one made (I think).

Eventually, someone will either scan or upload 'for free', so the point I'm making is to raise the funds BEFORE the work begins.

Future projects can be treated the same way. Funds raised first, then work. No need to 'set aside' for future projects, as this is a per-project concept.
Of course, anything raised above the asked amount can be either kept for future projects, or given as a bonus to the translators, etc...

But I still suggest to upload 'for free' after the work is done, with a donation option which would of course go into the reserve fund.

The nice 'trick' here is that, no matter how much people want to have everything for free, IF the amount is not reached, nobody will have anything!

So, hopefully, genuinely interested people will realize that it's better to donate smaller amounts in larger numbers than to have nothing at all.

Am I giving humanity too much credit?

And for those who prefer to have it ALL 'for free', I say let them have it and see what good it does them :)

Again, my main concerns are that we have good translations and that the translators receive proper compensation.

The rest seems less important to me (pdf or hard copy, charge later for downloads or not, etc...)

sam
01-31-2015, 12:22 PM
Once the work is finished and checked, the funds are transferred to the translator/s.


Problem: I would not work under such conditions - if other people were to have a say in the "quality" of the work, it would likely be three times as time consuming. And not necessarily any better.
Also: No translator will work without advance. No translator will submit his work BEFORE receiving payment - unless it is a long and proven relationship with the patron.
You may be able to retain, say 20% - much like its done in house construction. But paying in FULL only after you agree to the quality of the work - that will likely never happen.


The work is uploaded in PDF form. Whoever wants a hard copy, can go to LULU/elsewhere and have one made (I think).
the delivery to the patron can be in any format. whoever has the original word or whatever file can deliver any format easily, including single prints via LULU. It costs near to nothing compared to the input of the patron.



Eventually, someone will either scan or upload 'for free', so the point I'm making is to raise the funds BEFORE the work begins. that is the definition of crowdfunding


Of course, anything raised above the asked amount can be either kept for future projects, or given as a bonus to the translators, etc... that will not happen, the software will close the case and inform the associated parties to start the work. However, at a later date the translator CAN have further income thru additional book sales.

and that IS a VERY GOOD thing because I at least would be willing to start working at much lower entry point than if that option would not exist.
Example Naturweg: at least $ 4000,- with no further option - $ 2000,- with that option. Of course other translators may calculate differently and maybe you get a cheap chinese to do it for pennies :p


So, hopefully, genuinely interested people will realize that it's better to donate smaller amounts in larger numbers than to have nothing at all.based on my experience that will not work. There are a number of intelligent people who know the value of the work - and a TON of idiots who want it for free. There is very little middle ground.


Am I giving humanity too much credit?
as it stands: Yes!


also, look here for add. options:

http://ouroboros-press.bookarts.org/portfolio/cantus-circaeus/


-sam

Andro
01-31-2015, 12:29 PM
Sam - good points. I haven't thought of these angles, as I obviously lack any sort of experience in this field.

But I still think this is a good discussion, and hopefully a 'system' will/could evolve from it, with which all/most parties can agree...

Illen A. Cluf
01-31-2015, 03:47 PM
RAMS is already doing this, but the translators work for free. Here it complicates the things because it is not the case.
.

That's not quite correct. The people doing translations/transcriptions here are working for much less than free. The point was to try to primarily recover the out of pocket expenses, such as the costs for acquiring the treatise in the first place, costs for having someone design covers for the book, and publishing costs. Any extra amount would go towards the incredible amount of time it takes to do the work.

For example, I once worked on transcribing a long treatise, which had very difficult old handwriting. It took over 300 hours of my time. At say $15 per hour, that means $4,500 of time. Even if one were to make $5 per book, it would take 900 books to cover the time alone. Thus, because of the limited number of people in the alchemical community who are willing to sponsor such work and purchase a book, the translator/transcriber would likely never recover his time, unless he happens to produce a blockbuster.

Therefore, the main concern is the recovery of just the costs associated with publishing the material. Any additional amount recovered would only go towards a very small portion of the time. So it's obvious that the translator/transcriber works for much less than free. In just about all cases it even costs the translator/transcriber money/time out of his/her own pocket to make the material available. So if not enough people contribute, become more ethical in how they obtain this work, or even show appreciation, it greatly discourages a translator/transcriber from doing any further work.

Illen A. Cluf
01-31-2015, 03:50 PM
Am I giving humanity too much credit?



You haven't been around as long as I have :-) I too, used to be optimistic.

Kiorionis
01-31-2015, 04:31 PM
I'm interested in seeing this idea develop as well. But I'm also unfamiliar with the process. I assume the translation/publication cost depends on which book is being translated?

What other systems are there to raise money besides crowd-funding?
Starting a nonprofit company and fundraising to "preserve and promote the Arts"?

Roughly how much money is needed to be raised to complete the whole process for one book?

And is it best to have one translator working on a project, or more? How many is too many for one work?

Awani
01-31-2015, 05:08 PM
Thus they will wait for it to become free rather than make even a token contribution. That really limits the amount of sponsors who don't feel like sponsoring the selfish.

There are always assholes. Why not include a list of the Patrons in the finished work? At least something of a carrot.

I can print a few copies as I have a publishing company registered, which means I have some ISBN's... so whatever book is made it will at least be forever enshrined in the Swedish Royal Library. ;)

:cool:

sam
01-31-2015, 05:47 PM
I assume the translation/publication cost depends on which book is being translated?


of course -


What other systems are there to raise money besides crowd-funding?
Starting a nonprofit company and fundraising to "preserve and promote the Arts"?


that MIGHT work, but it is unlikely in this unspecific form. usually the concrete issue, in this case one particular book, raises the interest and subsequent payment into the funding pot.



Roughly how much money is needed to be raised to complete the whole process for one book?

that would of course entirely depend on the book. various factor play a role:
1) handwriting or print (the latter is cheaper to transcribe)
2) Print of the end product in a formal way or "nice layout" - the latter costs around 300 $
3) possible unforseeable issues with parts of the book - e.g. with Naturweg the printing of the symbols turned out to be a major stumbling block.
4) The amount of correction due to differing interpretations might make the process more cumbersome. If I myself translate a book I also decide when its ready for publishing. If a crowd decides that it could become a problem.
5) Finaly of course the sheer length is a determining factor.

If you aim at $ 15/h (a meager payment IMO) a book like the naturweg would end up costing roughly 2800$ if printed nicely, less if published formal and as ebook.


And is it best to have one translator working on a project, or more? How many is too many for one work?

that is a good question.
our group that has so far published "for money" 2 books and a few short texts for internal use, works with 3-5 people. One is the native speaker of the original who provides the raw translation and the transcript. then a native speaker of the target language does editorial work and finally several alchemy experts go over the interpretation of difficult or ambiguous parts as well as latin inserts etc.

its quite involved - in the end the text is formatted in a publishing software like adobe indesign and the front & back covers are designed.

LULU as the outlet provides ISBN for free so no worries there. If the number of patrons is known those books can be ordered bulk and are cheap (roughly 1/4 of the sales price).

-sam

Kiorionis
01-31-2015, 06:10 PM
Interesting stuff, sam.


that MIGHT work, but it is unlikely in this unspecific form. usually the concrete issue, in this case one particular book, raises the interest and subsequent payment into the funding pot.

I suppose I was thinking of people outside the alchemical community who want to make charitable donations for the tax breaks involved (at least in the USA).

But that might be on too grand a scale if the goal is just to translate one book that we forum members are interested in having an English translation of.

sam
01-31-2015, 06:22 PM
I suppose I was thinking of people outside the alchemical community who want to make charitable donations for the tax breaks involved (at least in the USA).
But that might be on too grand a scale if the goal is just to translate one book that we forum members are interested in having an English translation of.

not at all, the software itself WILL of course allow for such "donations" and they always will be a major aim for those who "advertise" the project.
after some time is is conceivable that a database of wealthy donors exist who may be likely to input more than just the book price. But that will take time to evolve and will also depend on how good the idea as such is accepted. some may think it too progressive or even doubt the quality gained by this process.

to solicit unspecific donations, e.g. for no particular book will be inherently problematic. who decides which project gets the funds? Of course the operational costs of such a platform will have to be recoved too, but that is done thru a percentage out of the total project - at least thats how crowdfunding works in the "real" world.

Illen A. Cluf
02-01-2015, 04:01 AM
There are always assholes. Why not include a list of the Patrons in the finished work? At least something of a carrot.



Great idea, Dev! I think that the sponsors are an important part of the finished product, and deserve to be recognized.

sam
02-01-2015, 06:26 AM
Great idea, Dev! I think that the sponsors are an important part of the finished product, and deserve to be recognized.

while the PERK in this case will be the finished book it certainly is doable to include the patrons on one thank-you page.

However, they will also be visible for as long as the crowfunding platform exists on that platform.

-sam

sam
02-02-2015, 07:37 AM
I have been looking into the technical aspects of this and found a solution that would cost in its "simple" version 200$ and in the more elaborate version that allows for more (but IMO in our case unnecessary) options 500$. Both require a certain setup of the server which I already have in place so my guestimate is one or two workdays to set it up.

That is not too much, even if it fails to work in the long run and only practise will show how much administrative work the individual project will be.

I have a pet script, namely the "Die 7 heiligen Grundsaeulen der Ewigkeit - by AdaMah Booz" -the seven holy pilars of eternity- that I would propose to translate as a companion of the Naturweg and the 13 letters.

When Naturweg was first published I got (from a member of Adam Mcleans forum) a list of aliases under wich I.C.H. also wrote - and this was one of them.

I have already transcribed the book and published the transcription thru BoD in Germany. I believe it to be of quite some value to the researcher of the Fulcanelli/I.C.H. line.

http://www.amazon.de/sieben-heiligen-Grunds%C3%A4ulen-Ewigkeit-Zeit/dp/3848224909/


But before I dive into server-updates and the like I would like some feedback of who would "sponsor" such work in the spirit of "crowdfunding".

And if others have their own pet projects, I would like to know about those too.

-sam

Andro
02-02-2015, 09:06 AM
Hi Everyone,

This thread got quite derailed/off-track in relation to its original/intended topic, and gradually devolved into a crossfire and interpersonal feud, which started to reach personal levels and mutual accusations of an increasingly personal nature (whether 'founded in reality' or not - I don't know, nor do I really care).

So, the respective 'flaming' posts have been 'wholesale' archived for now, and, as/if time allows, posts/sections of a less personally offensive nature will be inserted into relevant threads, if/where such threads exist.

Not sure when this will happen, as the mods don't have all/every day to read/check everything that is posted and to manage various thread topics if/when they get derailed.

So, please continue here on the topic of crowdfunding translations, and leave the personal issues out, preferably focusing more on agreeing on a system/platform first, and only later discuss potential texts and translators. In other words, I would say: Let's build the foundations first, before we argue who decorates the penthouse and how.

PS: Please do not reply to this post, as it is an administrative 'intervention' and as such, not open to discussion.

Thank you!

sam
02-02-2015, 11:01 AM
preferably focusing more on agreeing on a system/platform first

OK, in this spirit:

If WORDPRESS, a free blogging software, is already present on the server the following CF software IMO offers the most bang for the buck. I am aware of a few free solutions who need a lot more nibbeling with the code to do what one wants - and that is a time factor. Given my amount of time I want to spend and the learning curve I would have to endure this is NOT an option for me, but may well be for someone with more programming skills and time at hand:

http://ignitiondeck.com/id/ignitiondeck-pricing/

of those 3 options the middle one seems adequate. The cheap one does not supply membership options which I find essential, and the delivery of digital content could come in handy too. The ENTERPRISE version offers no real advantage for us IMO unless each and every person wanting a book translated also wants to learn how to manage such a crowdfunding endevor (which as I understand it is the job of the platform admin, and it is mainly what he gets paid for with his percentage of the cake).
In any case, should the need for the ENTERPRISE option arise an upgrade is always possible with little extra trouble.

As I said elsewhere I think a dedicated and independent operator is preferable to a group of operators and dedication to one group/forum for the aforemetioned reasons.
There are at least 3 big alchemy platforms who would likely participate if it is kept neutral. what I DONT want is to create a splitting of these precious resources and any real competiton in the very small field of alchemy should be avoided at all costs. It is hard enough to envision any kind of success as all those who have published in this field will confirm.

This software allows for (none free but mostly cheap) add-ons like facebook integration, additional payment platforms and such which is a great plus, as we cannot know what may become useful in the future. It also seems well established with a fairly good userbase, so it likely will not disappear overnight and the support along with it.

Also: "Themes" can be purchased, in the range of 50-100$ which support certain fields of intersts, like church donation, music distribution, social services to name a few. I may find one that fits our purpose better than the default delivered with the base package but havnt yet looked in depth.

-sam

Awani
02-02-2015, 01:27 PM
of those 3 options the middle one seems adequate.

Why not use a site that is for free (no nibbeling required)... usually they take about 3-5 % as a fee once the campaign is funded.

Also this is a small niche. Why need a platform? Why not just set up a PayPal and then crowdfund by word of mouth, sharing on FB, emailing everyone you know. Make it more direct and personal. Not sure how much money you need but if you spend 150 dollars on the platform alone well that could have paid many hours of translating.


I would also suggest to make the printed version EXPENSIVE rather than cheap. I have observed that people who know the value of this work are willing to shell out 50 or even 100 bucks for a book whichs translation, if done solely for them, would cost 20 times that money. The cheap characters will never pay that kind of money (unless they create a mafia style cooperation - but thats far fetched). Thats saves us from "uploads" indefinitely.

When the translator has been paid just let it go for free. There can always be a LULU copy that people can get for a price just to cover the cost of LULU.

If you want to make money on it after the people who has already done the work has been paid, then I think you should invest in it yourself and do it like a business. If it is not a business don't treat it as one, if it is... do, but then don't do crowdfunding unless everyone reaps the profits... which is guaranteed to cause a major headache.

The point was to be able to read alchemical works that are in a different language, that is it. Why complicate things?

:cool:

sam
02-02-2015, 02:14 PM
Why not use a site that is for free (no nibbeling required)... usually they take about 3-5 % as a fee once the campaign is funded.


the specific ones take more like 5-10% and the general ones are of no use for us (see below)



Also this is a small niche. Why need a platform? Why not just set up a PayPal and then crowdfund by word of mouth, sharing on FB, emailing everyone you know. Make it more direct and personal. Not sure how much money you need but if you spend 150 dollars on the platform alone well that could have paid many hours of translating.

that has been done, the results are in, it does not work.
and 150 bucks get you nowhere with a good translator.

The MAIN point to have a dedicated platform is this: the admin of that platform does not just get his % for making it available like the big platforms do, he is also responsible for making each new project KNOWN to those who may have an interest. In the big wide world that is not needed, and also almost impossible, but for small niches this is done all the time thats why chuches and social clubs have their very own CF sites. If you use a big one then you also have to learn whom to approach, and that goes for each single individual who wants something translated, it is easily 20% of the work, if not more.



When the translator has been paid just let it go for free. There can always be a LULU copy that people can get for a price just to cover the cost of LULU.


in a perfect world that would be ideal, alas we dont live in a perfect world. in this world people want to be paid for their work, and the only way to get a good translation any cheaper is to leave the rights with the translator so he can later make it into a book and hopefully get some more sales on the open market.
It may be possible to have a special rule to release the work after X years (as mentioned before, e.g. 5 or 10).



If you want to make money on it after the people who has already done the work has been paid, then I think you should invest in it yourself and do it like a business. If it is not a business don't treat it as one, if it is... do, but then don't do crowdfunding unless everyone reaps the profits... which is guaranteed to cause a major headache.


But CF IS a business, it is used foremost and first by businesses to get funding that would not get any from banks. thats the whole idea. so where is the headache.
Unless you are willing to spend your time for free and do free work for all of us, thats the way its done: business. Now there can be businesses with certain say sympathetic rules towards a certain interest group, or in other words, if I myself like alchemy I will likely give those who want alchemical translations a special treat, i.e. less money. But it remains a business. There is nothing wrong with it. Even if alchemy is only a hobby for you - everybody with a hobby finances numerous businesses if he collects stamps, books or model cars, it makes no difference.


The point was to be able to read alchemical works that are in a different language, that is it. Why complicate things?

because it has been tried without and found not to be working.

JDP
02-02-2015, 07:09 PM
Once again, speaking from years of experience in this subject, there is only one way that has withstood the test of time and worked:

1- An adequate translator who is fluent in both the source language (German, Arabic, Latin, etc.) and the target language (in our case, English) and is willing to work on "unusual" subjects like alchemy/chymistry is located (this might take YEARS of testing translators until one is found) and who does not ask for exaggerated translation rates (0.01 to 0.03 $ per word translated is fine, more than that and it starts to get prohibitive even when several people pitch in to cover the costs)

2- People have to come forth stating that they are interested in the translation of any given text and will pitch in to help cover these costs

3- The person who finds the translator, or perhaps someone else assigned to assume the role of coordinator, if need be for someone with more familiarity with the literature of alchemy/chymistry and its specialized language/vocabulary, has to discuss any problems/mistakes that may be found in the first submitted translation with the translator and attempt to correct/clarify as many of them as is possible for a final more polished translation

4- A word count is made (this is very easy to do nowadays thanks to Microsoft Word's handy "word count" feature) of this final more polished version of the translated text and the translator paid his fees (this requires risk on the part of the person coordinating the project, as the initial money to pay the translator has to come from his own pocket; I have assumed this role myself a bunch of times, and yes, sometimes I end up paying the shares of some dead-beat bums who do not keep their word to pitch in to help cover the costs. Fortunately, the majority of people are not like that and do keep their agreements to share in the costs.)

5- The shares per person are submitted to the person coordinating the translation project, preferably through a quick and secure medium, like PayPal (sometimes I have received shares from contributors in the form of money orders or even cash via regular mail, but most people nowadays have access to PayPal accounts, so they prefer this method)

6- The translation is distributed via email among all those who contributed their share for making the translation happen (dead-beats who do not submit their shares are carefully noted, black-listed and of course banned from ever pretending to participate again in such projects as they are a threat to the whole effort and can actually end up costing the coordinator of the project some money from his own pocket)

PS: This exact same method also has worked very well in helping acquire photocopies/scans of rare and difficult to find books, articles or university theses on alchemy/chymistry.

Andro
02-03-2015, 01:04 PM
If anyone is interested :cool:

Unscannable Books by Jasmine Raznahan (http://sfcb.org/blog/2012/07/28/unscannable-books-by-jasmine-raznahan/)

http://sfcb.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/15.jpg

http://sfcb.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/35.jpg

http://sfcb.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/52.jpg

Also, the following technique (first video on the playlist) is used in Hollywood when handing out confidential scripts, to prevent them from being 'leaked out' :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7MCnH5bCUs&list=PL52E07A366F569CC8

I must admit the book designs are both interesting and entertaining :)

Andro
02-09-2015, 11:22 AM
Since nothing ever happens until one or more people actually take initiative, I've been doing a bit of 'plotting, scheming and conspiring'' behind the scenes to check for possibilities to create a crowdfunding platform for the translation of alchemical texts. In principle, it is intended to work with a variety of languages and a number of different translators.

However, before we get ahead of ourselves, I would like to see if there is any actual interest, expressed in actual texts.

That's why I've created this spin-off thread, to 'test the waters', so to speak: Translation Suggestions (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4269-Translation-Suggestions)

sam
02-10-2015, 02:46 PM
In the meantime I have purchased the Ignition Deck CF "solution" - unfortunately its far from a solution, its basically a overpiced half baked product with rudimentary support. and although I am into "computers" for 3 decades now I am pulling out hair over this program.

In other words, it will take a little while until it runs like "advertised" :)

sam
02-16-2015, 02:21 AM
I have been considering a simple solution, like the paypal donation function combined with a simple html page. That may still be an option because it can be realized fast and almost serves our needs, almost only because the real CF solution has a few gimmicks that make it easier to manage once more than one or two translations are happening simultaneously (which may or may not happen). So give me some time here. The average needed for a "normal" i.e. purely commercial site to be built with this tool seems to be 3 month to one year, depending on complexity and funds.

sam
03-08-2015, 01:23 PM
heads up:

OK, the ACF (Alchemy Crowd Funding) site is nearing completion - of course there will always be enhancements and add-on but the basic functionality is there and only a few smaller quirks need to be fixed.

-sam

Ghislain
03-08-2015, 07:30 PM
I have been half following this discussion and have to admit it has gone a little over my head.

What are the benefits of crowd funding as opposed to sponsorship apart from spreading the burden of cost?

What happens if a crowd funds something that never comes to fruition, how are those funded held to uphold their offer?

Just for information...

Crowdfunding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdfunding)

Some Schemes funded by Crowdfunding...


Electric Eel Shock, a Japanese rock band in 2004 raised 10,000 from 100 fans (the Samurai 100) by offering them a lifetime membership on the band's guestlist. Two years later, they became the fastest band to raise a US$50,000 budget on SellaBand.

Franny Armstrong later created a donation system for her feature film The Age of Stupid. Over five years, from June 2004 to June 2009 (release date), she raised 1,500,000.

In December 2004, French entrepreneurs and producers Benjamin Pommeraud and Guillaume Colboc, launched a public Internet donation campaign to fund their short science fiction film, Demain la Veille (Waiting for Yesterday). Within a month, they managed to raise 17,000 online, allowing them to shoot their film.


Seed Accelerators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_accelerator)


Seed accelerators are fixed-term, cohort-based programs, that include mentorship and educational components and culminate in a public pitch event or demo day. While traditional business incubators are often government-funded, generally take no equity, and focus on biotech, medical technology, clean tech or product-centric companies, accelerators can be either privately or publicly funded and focus on a wide range of industries.


Y-Combinator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Combinator_(company))

Y-Combinator is one such Seed Accelerator...


As of May 2013, Y Combinator had funded over 500 startups. The number of startups funded in each cycle has been gradually increasing. The first cycle, in summer 2005, had eight startups. In the summer 2012 cycle, there were more than 80. Y Combinator subsequently reduced their class size down to less than 50 with their winter 2013 batch, but as of summer 2014 is back to more than 80.

Some of the better-known funded companies include Scribd, Reddit, Airbnb, Dropbox, Disqus, Stripe.

Paul Graham has stated that 37 of over 500 start ups have a valuation of over $40 million.

Paul Graham noted at the Global Mobile Internet Conference that Y Combinator startups have a combined value of more than $13.7 billion. In a 2014 blog post, Altman updated these numbers, noting that the total market cap of Y Combinator companies is over $30 billion, with portfolio companies having raised over $3 billion, and that 3 companies are worth over $1 billion.

I apologise if some of my questions have already been covered.

Ghislain

Dendritic Xylem
03-08-2015, 07:32 PM
Thanks Sam for putting the time into building a site. It is very much appreciated.

sam
03-10-2015, 05:17 PM
I have been half following this discussion and have to admit it has gone a little over my head.

What are the benefits of crowd funding as opposed to sponsorship apart from spreading the burden of cost?

What happens if a crowd funds something that never comes to fruition, how are those funded held to uphold their offer?

you questions will be addressed in the faq page of the CF site once it is published.
Please be patient, it will take a bit longer as expected.

-sam

sam
03-10-2015, 05:24 PM
Thanks Sam for putting the time into building a site. It is very much appreciated.

Thanx a bunch. much appreciated.

Unfortunately a severe bug came up yesterday that questions the functionality of the ACF site. I hope that the support people can and will handle it although support there is slow and often not very effective.
I guess it will just take a little longer.
In the meantime if anyone feels like doing a bit of spell-checking on that site for me, that would be great. pm me if you are so inclined.

-sam

Ghislain
03-11-2015, 12:13 AM
In the eantike if anyone feels like doing a bit of spell-checking on that site for me, that would be great. pm me if you are so inclined.


Sam, I have looked but can't find the link to the site...could you send me the link please.

Ghislain

sam
03-11-2015, 01:25 AM
Sam, I have looked but can't find the link to the site...could you send me the link please.

Ghislain

thats because it has not been published. It is not fully functional, as mentioned we are struggeling with one severe and a few smaller (design related) bugs.
If you want to help with spell-checking that would be great, I will pm you the URL but please do not publish it (yet).

-sam

Ghislain
03-11-2015, 02:15 AM
Sam I would love to help spell check, but wouldn't it be easier to run it through a spell checker?

I would like to see what you have done with the site though, if that would be ok :confused:

Ghislain

sam
03-11-2015, 04:57 AM
Sam I would love to help spell check, but wouldn't it be easier to run it through a spell checker?

I would like to see what you have done with the site though, if that would be ok :confused:

Ghislain

It has been run thru a spell checker but there are errors this simple device built into wordpress does not catch.

anyway, this has now to wait as i was just made aware that for crowdfunding different rules at paypal apply than for any other business. This will delay the going public futher I am afraid as I have to clear our operation with paypal first and they may not OK it in which case I have no plan B (yet).

If you like legaleze have a look for yourself:

https://developer.paypal.com/webapps/developer/docs/classic/lifecycle/crowdfunding/

and its getting worse, although we likely will never have to deal with funds this big here :)

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/crowdfunding-s-secret-enemy-is-paypal/1100-4743/

it would be funny if it wasnt so sad:

http://consumerist.com/2012/01/03/paypal-tells-buyer-to-destroy-purchased-violin-instead-of-return-for-refund/

I am now investigating stripe for fund processing. looks pretty good so far. another delay though.

sam
03-11-2015, 09:10 AM
I would like to see what you have done with the site though, if that would be ok :confused:

Ghislain

well, no can do, once the genie is out you cant put it back :)
but it really is just an empty framework, the projects (translations) will give it flesh. right now it looks like an ebay page with no product :)))

sam
03-20-2015, 02:33 PM
To keep you guys updated, one biggie was solved today - but one other remains. In the meantime issues with paypal are also getting resolved so the time is not altogether wasted.
ETA : another 2 weeks ....

anyone wanting to submit a project can start collecting data for it. 2 weeks is not that much time....:rolleyes::cool::D

sam
03-28-2015, 01:05 PM
Good news: Got " conditional approal" by Paypal today. That means we could start using the CF system, and as long as no f*ckups happen or they find out I'm in reality a mafia godfather laudering cash its OK. <kidding>

So now one bug in the system remains to be fixed, plus a few additions need to be made to the pages explaining the stuff and then we are good to go ...

Andro
03-28-2015, 01:14 PM
Great!

Now we need text suggestions for translation, in which more than a small number of people may be interested.

If anyone has such suggestions, please post them in the appropriate section of this sub-forum.

When the CF site/platform will be publicized, I assume it will contain the suggested 'Ground Rules'/'Terms of Engagement'/etc...

I really hope it works out!

sam
04-04-2015, 01:53 AM
Bad news.

the version of the "software from hell" I am using has so lousy documentation that it was not apparent that it has a limitation that renders the license given by paypal invalid. They have covered this really smart so one only finds this out after having invested month in work, and now is faced with the decision to either pay another half grand for an update from their "commercial" to their "enterprise" version, which I wont because first I dont have that money right now and second I wont spend it on that piece of shitty code they throw at you combined with the worst EVER support I have seen in a long life as a computer consultant.

There may be or rather certainly IS another way of collecting fungs, as hundrets of people use the commercial license I have, it just wont be as clearcut and nice as I had hoped it to be. I also may call it a day as I can see no big support here for the idea (with the exception of Andro), after all it may just have been a fancy of mine.

we will see, I have asked paypal to outline other options, maybe they do, maybe they dont ...

Ghislain
04-04-2015, 07:34 AM
I feel for you Sam

Good luck in your endeavours.

Ghislain

Awani
04-04-2015, 01:04 PM
I also may call it a day as I can see no big support here for the idea (with the exception of Andro), after all it may just have been a fancy of mine.

Maybe people are waiting for the site to be finished. I still think there are other options, but you said none of those options work... well they might work more than the site you have been trying to make (which seems not to work at all). If you build they will come, but only if you build. ;)

:cool:

sam
04-05-2015, 02:49 AM
trying out stripe now instead of PayPal. its relatively unknown which is a disadvatage, but the implementation seems a lot easier. if that works we maybe ready in a few days as the site as such is already 100% done. it is only the PP integration I am struggeling with (to be precise the bugs in the CF software that make this integration so difficult).
To make things worse, this software company is strictly 9-5, so my 5 (!) support tickets went unnoticed on thursday and wont be looked at before next wednesday because of easter holidays.

sam
04-09-2015, 04:10 AM
OK, I'm done with this software. If you look at their wordpress-site NOW you can see 7 (!) 1-star reviews from people who had the same or similar experiences,
https://wordpress.org/plugins/ignitiondeck/
but you can also see from the dates that these wheren't there when I started working, so due dilligence wasn't really the issue here. After spending about $250,-, 3 month wasted and a new bug creeping up every time one is solved I finally throw in the towel.
That does not mean I give up on the idea though, I just give up on this particular software and the idea of shelling out all that cash in advance, reminds me too much of my last book translation ventures :)
What I will do instead is this: I have searched the web for a good but also not too expensive web-programmer, fluent in php and CSS, both of which I am not. The usual going rate for a fully functional CF website is around 5-6.000 U$. That is a big sum. I have located a India based developer who's portfolio looks good, who has done 2 CF platforms in the past and will do it for 1 grand. Now obviously I wont pay that, but what I will do is set up a crowdfunding project to finance that, havnt decided yet on which of the available platforms, but will of course post that here - and all over the alchemy web. With this approach more than one fly is killed: I get an idea of the acceptance of CF in the community, and I also get an idea of the willingness to let action follow that willingness, in the from of hard cash.

-sam

sam
04-09-2015, 12:48 PM
OK everybody, here we go, please fund this project!

-sam

https://life.indiegogo.com/fundraisers/crowd-funding-alchemy-platform/x/10467150

with this money we will either create a new platform with a new face or make this one work, which would just be as good:

http://cfalchemy.com/

(you can play with it, its only a sandbox, meaning no realy money moves if you "contribute" on the cfalchemy site)

Ghislain
04-10-2015, 06:49 AM
Looking good so far Sam!

Ghislain

sam
05-07-2015, 01:53 PM
This is now running 4 weeks and not a single soul has contributed. The saddest thing IMO is that the armchair alchemists at Mcleans forum where I have posted a link to the CF site has been looked at 406 times, yet the total call for the CF site itself is only 120, meaning 120 souls had enough interest to LOOK at the CF site - nowithstanding participating in the funding. This number includes everybody, all people from this forum as well.
So without much exaggeration one can say that the concept of CF is so alien or unintesting to those folks that a click and reading a few paragraphs seems too much work.

Still one translator I personally know is willing to finance the continued work on condition of anonymity. However, I am not sure if I want to put in the extra work, even if funding is available (that is funding for the version we already have to make that workable, not a new version).

I have however received 3 offers for works to be translated that looks very interesting and of which I would love to read any one of them (but of course I already can because i do speak German...) One includes a transcript from a very old handwriting.

I will watch this a little longer and then decide how to proceed.

Awani
05-07-2015, 02:27 PM
I have worked with fundraising for more than a decade and it doesn't work as easy as making a site and posting a link.

I think the text you wrote is not a text that inspires giving at all.

Examples:

www.kickstarter.com/projects/fred/the-emoji-translation-project?ref=discovery

www.kickstarter.com/projects/clarkesworld/clarkesworld-chinese-science-fiction-translation-p/description

Why do these work? Study how they do the "ask" and I think you can figure it out.

Also another tip: focus on the positive, benefits... not the negative, errors etc. It is not inspiring to give to someone complaining.

:cool:

sam
05-08-2015, 06:22 AM
I see your point, however this is not a normal CF campaign.

In a "normal" campaign the originator asks for money for a task he himself finds useful and others, though sharing his opinion, will usually not have much benefit from it. Many campaigns are thinly veiled donation requests.

This here is different, each and every one who wants to read a German text should be interested to have a workable solution for paying the translator, its 100% useful for him. in fact each and every one who funds this has the same and equal benefit from it. Its almost like a shared company where each funder is a shareholder.

So I do not see the need nor will I submit to begging. If people are dumb enough to believe the situation "as it is" will give them more translations so be it.
If they are happy with what they've got - so be it too.

anyone who needs to be d*ck-sucked into his own benefit is definitely too dumb for me to deal with.

-sam

Awani
05-08-2015, 09:40 AM
So I do not see the need nor will I submit to begging.

Well I hear what you are saying but I don't think you realize the fundamentals of fundraising... and your campaign is "normal"... but the manner in which you have performed it well that is not normal and why it is not working. If you are above begging then life will be hard. The word "beg" is just Old English for "to ask". Fund-raising = asking for funds, begging, asking... ;)


anyone who needs to be d*ck-sucked into his own benefit is definitely too dumb for me to deal with.

This kind of energy output is the main reason why I don't think you are getting any donations I'm afraid.

:cool:

sam
05-08-2015, 04:50 PM
is this on purpose or arnt you getting it?

If we two lived in the same appartment and wanted a TV for our living room would I ask you for a DONATION if I wanted 50% of the purchasing price?

if your answer is yes dont bother posting it :cool:

if your answer is NO you have a good metaphor for whats going on here.

Awani
05-08-2015, 10:59 PM
I must say NO because I don't watch TV... and it is not a good metaphor because I do not think that is what is going on here.

It is much easier to sell eggs to people than it is to sell chickens.

:cool: