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Awani
02-01-2015, 01:55 AM
There are two ways to look at the world.

One way is to see everything around you as real, but not only real… important. So important that if you do not do everything in your power to defend it you will go insane.

The other way to look at reality is to not see it as unreal, but as an illusion. Do not fall into the trap of thinking that everything is black and white. See everything around you as - not unreal - but instead as rendering; which is computer language that basically means to convert, for example, a file into visual form. Or instead of rendering think of it as in the process of becoming.

Reality is not an illusion, cannot be an illusion, if you simply investigate what the word reality actually means.

https://preview.ibb.co/nAYTfx/dghshadsgf.jpg

What does the word reality mean?

Reality is the state of things as they are or appear to be, and reality exists independent of human awareness. But a dream can appear very real and all things could possibly exists independent of our own awareness. How do we really know where our dreams go when we wake up? Everything is therefore potentially real.

Nothing is an hallucination. Everything is an hallucination. Everything an illusion. It is not the physical form that is the basis for reality. The illusion is the reality, but it is not an illusion. It is real. Or as real as you want it to be.

That is what the rendering process is all about. If you want shit to be rendered, shit will be rendering. If you want gold, then gold you will have.

If you want to render in VHS quality then render in VHS, if you want to render in Hi-Def then render in Hi-Def.

Only when the responsibility to perceive the reality of illusion is placed firmly in your own hands can you truly begin to shape the reality of your illusion.

:cool:

Awani
02-01-2015, 02:10 AM
So what does the word illusion mean?

Well there are many synonyms and most of them are about something false or deceiving, but how can something be wrong when nothing is right... when everything is an illusion... then everything must be right. Everything is the reality of the illusion.

One definition of illusion that I think works best is that it is an optical illusion that represents what is perceived in a way different from the way it is in reality. In other words our eyes see the illusionary world, but we don't see the complete illusion it resides in. Like seeing a ghost, but failing to see that the eyes that saw the ghost don't exist.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/jesus-stripes-big_zpswysrilwx.jpg

I find that this kind of thinking is very liberating.

:cool:

Ghislain
02-01-2015, 05:56 AM
Is that Jesus?

Do blind people see the illusion?

I Like your perspective Dev...

It is like the separation we put between ourselves and nature...as if we are not a part of it.


http://thealchemyforum.com/Images/houses

Ghislain

Awani
02-01-2015, 02:35 PM
I actually thought about the blind and the deaf whilst writing these posts. There seriously needs to be a study done with blind people and psychedelics (maybe there has been one done).

But I think it is the same for them. The blind see the sound (feel the texture) of illusion and the deaf use their eyes the same way we do.

:cool:

Andro
02-01-2015, 02:54 PM
I've had the experience of seeing with closed eyes.

It feels a bit strange, and everything was Black & White (for me), but the scenery was the exactly same as with the eyes open.

Awani
02-01-2015, 03:23 PM
On Iboga I had the same experience, it wasn't black and white but more like night vision (greenish).

:cool:

Salazius
02-02-2015, 10:24 AM
I'd like to design special alchemical glasses for blind people and for night vision. Would be cool.

Kiorionis
02-02-2015, 02:10 PM
Would these alchemical glasses be in pill form or tincture?

:cool:

Salazius
02-02-2015, 03:16 PM
I've heard that some gyus made glasses with glass of antimony or lenses for the work of the sun.

They'd be like normal glasses.

Ghislain
04-21-2015, 07:11 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4pHP-pgwlI

Ghislain

Andro
04-21-2015, 08:28 AM
I actually thought about the blind and the deaf whilst writing these posts.

Years ago, in my (then) line of work, I met one blind man who could see without functioning eyes. Active pineal gland, also very psychic. He could see everything just like me (or better?), but probably not exactly the same as with the 'normal' eyes. He also said that he sometimes experiences moments of 'not seeing', and that he trains himself to improve this ability. He was not blind from birth.

Related: When I'm 'out of body', I can often see with much greater clarity and focus than I could ever imagine doing with the physical eyes.


------------------------------------------------------

Ghislain
04-21-2015, 09:59 PM
Had a go at recreating the Jesus pic from post 2...not very successfully :)

http://thealchemyforum.com/Images/My Pic

Ghislain

Aaron
05-14-2015, 08:20 AM
I've had the experience of seeing with closed eyes.

It feels a bit strange, and everything was Black & White (for me), but the scenery was the exactly same as with the eyes open.


On Iboga I had the same experience, it wasn't black and white but more like night vision (greenish).

Wow I've had the same. Never told anyone because I thought no one would believe me. But for me it wasn't black & white or geenish. It was more like someone reduced the contrast of the colours around me to a minimum. It happened to me in my first year of meditation. Unfortunately it didn't happen again since.

Eshai
05-14-2015, 03:53 PM
reality exists independent of human awareness
This is the fundamental belief of science. When reality is viewed as subjective, instead of absolute, the scientific method is no longer fully applicable.

I believe that reality is absolute, and it is only us who are limited in our means of observing reality, making reality appear subjective. Reality is, IMO, not subjective--our minds, and our abilities to perceive reality, are subjective. So, in my view, it may not be that we are viewing illusions... instead, we have illusory visions of reality which some of us, in our arrogance, call absolute reality.

If we collectively view the same illusion, is it not fitting to call it reality?

Ghislain
05-15-2015, 07:08 AM
Many years ago we had some friend around and we partook of some recreational drugs.

On the wall was a picture of a woodland scene with a path into the woods.

While staring at this picture I saw a building deep in the woods with people moving about it, so I explained what I saw asked my spaced-out companions if they could see it too. To my surprise they could, I was very excited, but then I asked them to explain what they saw and it was not the same as what I saw.

I had made the suggestion and their minds created their own reality for them.

I would not be surprised if this is what we all do all of the time, each of us living in our individual reality; at least a perceived individual reality.

Ghislain

Aaron
05-15-2015, 07:55 AM
I would not be surprised if this is what we all do all of the time, each of us living in our individual reality; at least a perceived individual reality.

Ghislain

That's what I believe. In the end, everything is just information and our senses and our (prejudging) subconscious are part of the perceiving process.
For (very exaggerated) example:

When a person could hear only deep or basslike sounds, and he would always look up to the sky, he could walk through a world full of crying/screaming children behind fences to his left and right without even knowing it. For him, the world would be beautiful. Not hearing the children and always seeing the blue sky.
On the other hand, a man who could hear those high pitched sounds would hear every scream and cry, and look towards them. He would see thousands of children in pain and fear behind fences. For him the world would be hell.



While staring at this picture I saw a building deep in the woods with people moving about it, so I explained what I saw asked my spaced-out companions if they could see it too. To my surprise they could, I was very excited, but then I asked them to explain what they saw and it was not the same as what I saw.

I had made the suggestion and their minds created their own reality for them.

That's even more impressive. The fact that we are able to adjust others perception towards what we see. At least in a very rough way.

By telling them what you saw, you made them see the same (at least roughly) as you. UNTIL your "story/explanation" ended, and they started to perceive their experience completely subjective again.
That's very interesting.

Eshai
05-15-2015, 12:20 PM
I had made the suggestion and their minds created their own reality for them.

I would not be surprised if this is what we all do all of the time, each of us living in our individual reality; at least a perceived individual reality.
I agree, this is very interesting; something I had not considered. For me, this reflects the first law of Hermetics, and makes a great deal of sense.

Ghislain
01-01-2016, 08:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

Ghislain

Ghislain
01-01-2016, 08:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvk

Ghislain

Awani
01-02-2016, 02:19 AM
Never told anyone because I thought no one would believe me.

Six years ago I would have my doubts. Now I don't! ;)

-------------------------------------------------------

Yeah those videos are nice examples. Many floating around.

Re-reading this thread (which is a year old now) I am amazed. I usually never toot my own horn, but it's a new year so why not? LOL!

Quote myself from earlier in this thread:
"In other words our eyes see the illusionary world, but we don't see the complete illusion it resides in. Like seeing a ghost, but failing to see that the eyes that saw the ghost don't exist."

I think this is a perfect description, not sure how I could formulate it so well IMO. Ha ha.

:cool:

Awani
02-22-2018, 02:08 AM
I have been on a certain philosophical path for many years, and in the last ten years this path has become more and more focused. I feel like I am, for me at least, getting to the very core of the matter. As always uncertain if it makes any sense whatsoever to anyone else... however recently the rabbit hole just got a bit deeper for me. So here goes...

Water does not ask itself: am I wet? Water is only wet if experienced by someone/something that is dry.

So with that, how can anyone know if someone/something is real (wet), unless they are unreal (dry) themselves?

https://image.ibb.co/f0hX7c/baby_610x250.jpg

:p

elixirmixer
02-22-2018, 02:55 AM
Thats deep Awani. Are we each the only real thing in our own personal Universe? Ive always wondered...

Kiorionis
02-22-2018, 03:13 AM
IAO
https://www.trustedtarot.com/img/cards/the-hanged-man.png

Awani
02-22-2018, 06:00 PM
Are we each the only real thing in our own personal Universe? Ive always wondered...

As my example shows, that is impossible to know. I guess in a sense if we build a sentient robot, then we can ask that robot if we exist or not... since the robot would be outside this "sphere". But that does not work either, since the robot exists within "this" realm. It is a closed loop.

The desktop on your computer can never be aware of the world outside the plastic covers of the computer itself, it is locked in its own relative universe. Perhaps in death such answers will be given, but even then we are closed off in "that" realm... basically no matter what we do, we will always be trapped in our own conscious experience... never truly knowing what that experience is, unless we somehow manage (through death or other means) become something else entire... just as water is only wet if it is perecieved by something that is dry. Etc.

I guess another way of saying this is:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

:p

Lux Natura
02-23-2018, 12:29 PM
I suggest the book "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" by Yuval Noah Harari. It's a great read in general, and has ideas that are relevant to this topic.

Our capacity for imagination, myth making, belief making, etc... is responsible for not just our own subjective realities, but inter-subjective realities - subjective realities that are shared. A large group of people can believe in something that does not objectively exist, but the existence of that idea create a reality inside the culture those members belong to. Thus we act on illusions as if they were real, and our minds cannot tell the difference.

Awani
03-15-2018, 12:40 AM
Thus we act on illusions as if they were real, and our minds cannot tell the difference.

That's because the illusion thus becomes real. The devil only exist if you believe in him etc.

:p

Awani
04-20-2018, 07:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ54GDm1eL0

:p

Luxus
04-20-2018, 06:13 PM
If reality was an illusion jumping off a building wouldn't result in you being splatted on the floor.

In vedic teachings there are loka's (realms) they all exist simultaneously hear and now but you are locked into your loka and only perceive that reality. Some yogi in meditation suddenly open their eyes to find themselves sitting in a different reality. Celts call that the other world but it is not somewhere you must travel to it is the reality beneath your reality.

Awani
04-20-2018, 06:23 PM
If reality was an illusion jumping off a building wouldn't result in you being splatted on the floor.

Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

:p

JDP
04-20-2018, 06:43 PM
Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

:p

Don't let the delusion that reality is supposedly a delusion confuse you regarding the reality of reality. If not, then put your beliefs to the test by jumping off of the top of a tall building, as suggested above. My "prediction" based on that reality: 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure you will die.

Luxus
04-20-2018, 06:48 PM
Does past, present and future all exist right here now, simultaneously occurring but in different layers of space?

Awani
04-21-2018, 12:11 AM
Don't let the delusion that reality is supposedly a delusion confuse you regarding the reality of reality. If not, then put your beliefs to the test by jumping off of the top of a tall building, as suggested above. My "prediction" based on that reality: 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure you will die.

Your reply is like reading a reply to a comment about horses, but your reply has to do with ice cream.

I'm sorry, but you clearly do not understand the phrase and I shall not explain it any further. Let's call it a secret.


Does past, present and future all exist right here now, simultaneously occurring but in different layers of space?

There is only the now... although the future has already happened.

:p

JDP
04-21-2018, 12:57 AM
Your reply is like reading a reply to a comment about horses, but your reply has to do with ice cream.

I'm sorry, but you clearly do not understand the phrase and I shall not explain it any further. Let's call it a secret.

I beg to differ. The reply gets straight to the point, it does not beat around the bush. And we all know that the reason why all proponents of this absurd claim refuse to put their money where their mouths are is precisely because they know that reality is very real, and if they ever did such a crazy thing as jumping off of a building or cliff the outcome would be very predictable, which would not be the case if "reality is a delusion".

Awani
04-21-2018, 01:37 AM
You are missing the point I made, and as I said I am not explaining it any further.

:p

Awani
05-24-2018, 10:21 PM
"People cannot be talked out of illusions." - Alan Watts

One could even say; you cannot talk yourself out of an illusion.

Direct experience is the only way. That is the Game. Who in their right mind turn on a Playstation, pop in a game and sit back and watch the start screen... and never picking up the controller? No one.

Yet in life, many do.

https://image.ibb.co/i0BJqo/02f2bc479f7a48f095f8d32c41ee95f9_Medium.png

:p

Awani
07-11-2018, 09:34 AM
If everything is an eternal dream, everything is part of the dream... and even if the dreamer and the dream is the same... then we can still have a Big Bang. Because the Big Bang is part of the dream.

We can wake up from a dream within the dream, but we can never wake up from The Dream. We (not we as in Awani or you... but we as in anything that ever was)... we ARE the dream.

Waking up would mean the end of everything. Suicide. Stay asleep!

But wake up from "this" dream... in other words keep dreaming, but make it a lucid dream.

That's my outlook currently...

:p

Awani
08-12-2018, 08:38 AM
https://preview.ibb.co/cimo1U/Dk_Wzg_n_V4_AEo1ag_jpg_large.jpg

:p

Ghislain
08-12-2018, 08:58 AM
You can jump off a cliff, many people do it often, and as long as you follow the rules (the recipe) then
99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time you can survive.

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. poUjHeirznUsmJFvXFa1RQHaE8%26pid%3D15.1&f=1

JDP
08-12-2018, 11:24 AM
You can jump off a cliff, many people do it often, and as long as you follow the rules (the recipe) then
99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time you can survive.

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. poUjHeirznUsmJFvXFa1RQHaE8%26pid%3D15.1&f=1

Nope, that's CHEATING the "experiment" designed to test these "reality of illusion" kooky theories. You are using a very real and tangible artificial device designed to be able to survive the 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure chance of death that such an action will bring forth, not the supposed Jedi-like powers of your mind. You might as well show us a picture of people bungee jumping. CHEATING!

Awani
08-12-2018, 11:43 AM
The story of the World War II gunner who fell 22,000 feet without a parachute and lived (https://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-the-wwii-gunner-who-fell-22000-feet-without-a-parachute-and-lived-2016-4?r=US&IR=T&IR=T)

Vesna Vulovic, stewardess who survived 33,000ft fall (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38427411)

The man who fell 12,000 ft ... and survived (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-435377/The-man-fell-12-000-ft---survived.html)

Skydiver survives 14,000 foot fall after his parachute and backup BOTH fail (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/skydiver-survives-14000-foot-fall-3699030)

It doesn't happen often, but it happens enough.

Luck, "god" listening to prayer... who knows... but NOTHING is set in stone... not even "sure death".

-------------------------------------------

However the debate about "jumping off a cliff" is a clear indication that you do not understand what is being discussed, nor will you ever unless you clear your mind from play school arguments. We are talking about something deeper, mystical and mind altering... not about jumping off a cliff. It would be like I was trying to tell you that alchemy is bullshit, because it is just chemistry for pseudo-chemists... which in many cases it is.

When people want to discuss ONE matter you jump in with your ideas. When people want to discuss the concepts of reality you jump in with your "jump off the cliff" angle.

Focus on your thing, and let others focus on theirs.


If everything is an eternal dream, everything is part of the dream... and even if the dreamer and the dream is the same... then we can still have a Big Bang. Because the Big Bang is part of the dream.

We can wake up from a dream within the dream, but we can never wake up from The Dream. We (not we as in Awani or you... but we as in anything that ever was)... we ARE the dream.

Waking up would mean the end of everything. Suicide. Stay asleep!

But wake up from "this" dream... in other words keep dreaming, but make it a lucid dream.

That's my outlook currently...

Why don't you give your spin on the above quote instead, and refrain from "jumping off cliff" arguments if you can.

:p

JDP
08-12-2018, 01:04 PM
The story of the World War II gunner who fell 22,000 feet without a parachute and lived (https://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-the-wwii-gunner-who-fell-22000-feet-without-a-parachute-and-lived-2016-4?r=US&IR=T&IR=T)

Vesna Vulovic, stewardess who survived 33,000ft fall (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38427411)

The man who fell 12,000 ft ... and survived (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-435377/The-man-fell-12-000-ft---survived.html)

Skydiver survives 14,000 foot fall after his parachute and backup BOTH fail (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/skydiver-survives-14000-foot-fall-3699030)

It doesn't happen often, but it happens enough.

Luck, "god" listening to prayer... who knows... but NOTHING is set in stone... not even "sure death".

Those are indeed cases of incredible luck, they certainly don't happen often.


However the debate about "jumping off a cliff" is a clear indication that you do not understand what is being discussed, nor will you ever unless you clear your mind from play school arguments. We are talking about something deeper, mystical and mind altering... not about jumping off a cliff. It would be like I was trying to tell you that alchemy is bullshit, because it is just chemistry for pseudo-chemists... which in many cases it is.

It is you who doesn't quite understand it. "Jumping off a cliff" is a perfectly fitting experiment for the kind of bizarre claims you seem to believe in. If it is all an "illusion" then it should not be possible to predict the most likely outcome of such an action. Your Jedi-like reality-altering mind powers would change that reality and you would survive, and not by incredible one-of-a-kind luck, as in the above cited cases, but because you changed reality. It should also be repeatable. If we carried out the "experiment" again, you should be able to alter reality again and avoid the predictable outcome. Rest assured that reality is VERY real. Don't believe it? JUMP OFF A CLIFF. I dare you! :)


When people want to discuss ONE matter you jump in with your ideas. When people want to discuss the concepts of reality you jump in with your "jump off the cliff" angle.

Focus on your thing, and let others focus on theirs.

You still don't get it, do you? This is not a "my thing vs your thing", this is about THE EXACT SAME REALITY WE ALL LIVE IN, whether you like it or not. Your or mine "opinions" don't matter here. Reality doesn't care about them and it will continue to be what it always has been quite unworried by what we think of it. Reality is very democratic and egalitarian, it is the same for us all.


Why don't you give your spin on the above quote instead, and refrain from "jumping off cliff" arguments if you can.

:p

Because unlike the "jumping off a cliff" arguments, the above is a bunch of nonsense that is happening in a dream-world setting, NOT in reality.

Awani
08-12-2018, 04:24 PM
It is you who doesn't quite understand it. "Jumping off a cliff" is a perfectly fitting experiment for the kind of bizarre claims you seem to believe in. If it is all an "illusion" then it should not be possible to predict the most likely outcome of such an action.

Is every dream you ever have, every night, lucid? If not, why not?


Reality is very democratic and egalitarian, it is the same for us all.

Reality cannot be fully understood when inside it. Therefor reality is relative with similar rules, but since there are exceptions (like those survivors) nothing can be taken for granted.


...the above is a bunch of nonsense that is happening in a dream-world setting, NOT in reality.

You are aware that the scientific community is closer to my line of thinking, than yours... but I guess that makes sense since you believe in pseudo-chemistry... there is more mumbo-jumbo coming out your end than mine. LOL.

Besides it doesn't matter how many times I say it: the way you reply to my posts clearly indicate that you are not understanding what I am talking about... And frankly, it doesn't matter to me... but since you disagree with anything related to this thread, and I think by now we all know your stance, I suggest you stay away... or I am forced to spam every single thread you post in with comments like this: "no, that is wrong because that is pseudo-chemistry"

:p

JDP
08-12-2018, 06:00 PM
Is every dream you ever have, every night, lucid? If not, why not?

No, but that's why they are DREAMS. It's NOT real. Reality is always the same, every single day.


Reality cannot be fully understood when inside it. Therefor reality is relative with similar rules, but since there are exceptions (like those survivors) nothing can be taken for granted.

Reality can be fully understood, otherwise it would be impossible to predict a whole bunch of actions which invariably bring up the same results.

The cases of those survivors can be explained. The guy who fell from the downed WW2 bomber, for example, was incredibly lucky to have hit glass panels on the ceiling of the train station he fell on, which slowed down his fall and allowed him to survive the impact on the more solid surface.


You are aware that the scientific community is closer to my line of thinking, than yours... but I guess that makes sense since you believe in pseudo-chemistry... there is more mumbo-jumbo coming out your end than mine. LOL.

LOL! No friggin' way! The scientific community does NOT say anything of the sort like you claim.


Besides it doesn't matter how many times I say it: the way you reply to my posts clearly indicate that you are not understanding what I am talking about... And frankly, it doesn't matter to me... but since you disagree with anything related to this thread, and I think by now we all know your stance, I suggest you stay away... or I am forced to spam every single thread you post in with comments like this: "no, that is wrong because that is pseudo-chemistry"

:p

But it is you who doesn't understand why the "jump off a cliff" example is perfectly to the point regarding all these bizarre question marks that you try to put on reality. If reality was an "illusion", then we would not all experience the same while doing something like the above suicidal action. Some of us would die, others would not (and I don't mean bizarre freak exceptions, but on a more regular basis.) It would depend on the "illusion" each person has of reality. Poppycock! And reality is the same not just for people, but for animals and plants, and even for inanimate objects that have no consciousness whatsoever (a monkey, a tree or a glass falling down a cliff will also suffer the exact same impact that we will.) That should tell you something. Reality cares nothing about what we think or wish. It just "is". There is no such "illusion" here. Don't believe me? JUMP OFF A CLIFF! ;) 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 % chance you will die. Reality at work, quite unhindered by your "it's just an illusion! it's just an illusion! it's just an illusion!" thoughts while you plummet down to your death.

Awani
08-12-2018, 06:31 PM
If I had a penny every time someone told me to jump off a cliff I could hand out gold for free.

Also, you still don't get it: don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion

I am not saying what I say is true/fact... but it is what I think... I am not saying reality is not real... but I am also not saying that it is real... your constant argument about "jumping off a cliff" is ridiculous, because it does not even touch upon the topic I am putting forth. From my perspective you are "way off". You are stuck in a limited closed loop of perspective... within that "realm" what you say is true... but I am talking about the deep ocean... you are discussing the dew on a piece of grass.

:p

JDP
08-12-2018, 07:11 PM
If I had a penny every time someone told me to jump off a cliff I could hand out gold for free.

Also, you still don't get it: donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion

I am not saying what I say is true/fact... but it is what I think... I am not saying reality is not real... but I am also not saying that it is real... your constant argument about "jumping off a cliff" is ridiculous, because it does not even touch upon the topic I am putting forth. From my perspective you are "way off". You are stuck in a limited closed loop of perspective... within that "realm" what you say is true... but I am talking about the deep ocean... you are discussing the dew on a piece of grass.

:p

https://i.imgflip.com/1jpdm3.jpg

Awani
08-12-2018, 08:32 PM
You'll see... eventually... ;)

:p