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Awani
04-18-2015, 11:02 PM
Could be fun to see... what is your agenda with alchemy? Goal, reason, in pursuit of... what?

For me I'm in the alchemy game with the aim of self-transformation/transmutation using the tools and ideas that I deem most effective.

:cool:

theFool
04-19-2015, 12:42 AM
in pursuit of... what?
Hm, freedom..

Awani
04-19-2015, 12:51 AM
Hm, freedom..

Economic or spiritual?

Aren't we inherently free... the slavery illusionary? ;)

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
04-19-2015, 01:05 AM
Could be fun to see... what is your agenda with alchemy? Goal, reason, in pursuit of... what?

For me I'm in the alchemy game with the aim of self-transformation/transmutation using the tools and ideas that I deem most effective.

:cool:
There are MANY different paths to the alchemical pursuit. My goal is to figure out which one has most merit.

True Initiate
04-19-2015, 01:40 AM
Philosopher's Stone and Elixir of life. Transmutation and immortality.

Awani
04-19-2015, 01:48 AM
There are MANY different paths to the alchemical pursuit. My goal is to figure out which one has most merit.

And what would be the alchemical pursuit for you?


Philosopher's Stone and Elixir of life. Transmutation and immortality.

Perhaps a topic for another thread, but in short why do you seek immortality? Are we not immortal already?

:cool:

True Initiate
04-19-2015, 02:17 AM
To mortals death is a certainty but to immortals it is a choice. I don't have a wish to live forever but i have wish to live for a couple of centuries.

alfr
04-19-2015, 02:28 AM
continuing to live in the development of wisdom and the secrets of alchemy live for a couple of centuries. i am agree this is i hope my goal

Awani
04-19-2015, 02:55 AM
I don't have a wish to live forever but i have wish to live for a couple of centuries.


continuing to live in the development of wisdom and the secrets of alchemy live for a couple of centuries.

I reply here: Philosopher's Stone and Immortality (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?978-Philosopher-s-Stone-and-Immortality.&p=38031#post38031)

:cool:

Ghislain
04-19-2015, 06:47 AM
To see through all illusion and understand the core of being, to find the purpose of what is...I'm so friggin curious!

I'm not a cat so I should be ok ;)

Ghislain

theFool
04-19-2015, 07:08 AM
Aren't we inherently free... the slavery illusionary? ;)
If you have to eat, if you feel cold, if you get sick, if you have to die (and probably start all over from zero afterwards), then you are not free. "Slavery is illusionary" is just a word. One can stay out in the cold for one night and will understand the "illusion" of cold :) To me, all this "illusionary" theory seems to be a new age story to keep people in apathy.

Andro
04-19-2015, 08:26 AM
If you have to eat, if you feel cold, if you get sick, if you have to die (and probably start all over from zero afterwards), then you are not free. "Slavery is illusionary" is just a word. One can stay out in the cold for one night and will understand the "illusion" of cold :) To me, all this "illusionary" theory seems to be a new age story to keep people in apathy.

Mon Cher, Mr. Fool :)

Remember my talk in Amsterdam?

It's an illusion and it's real, simultaneously. Claiming only one of them, is a 'Half Truth', so to speak.

As for my goals with Alchemy, they have nothing to do with anything that has time/space as a part of it. In virtually manifest creation - conflict, suffering and duality are not only inevitable, but also essential for maintaining it. If people can't see that and think they can have it both ways, it's not directly my problem :)

I want nothing to do with the Knowable.

Or 'nothing to do', period.

When you are, doing is obsolete.

It's the Universal Exit.

This is my alchemical goal, and the reason I wait and don't rush into various trodden paths.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just so it doesn't get too 'heavy'...


I'm not a cat so I should be ok ;)

Hmm...


I tawt I taw a puddy tat!

;)


------------------------------------------------------

Awani
04-19-2015, 10:52 AM
If you have to eat, if you feel cold, if you get sick, if you have to die (and probably start all over from zero afterwards), then you are not free.

Oh there are rules to the game. Otherwise it would be boring to play. God mode is overrated. Alan Watts has a cool take on it (start at 1:12 if you are in a hurry)...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU0PYcCsL6o


One can stay out in the cold for one night and will understand the "illusion" of cold :) To me, all this "illusionary" theory seems to be a new age story to keep people in apathy.

Quite the opposite. Is it empowering. Slavery is apathy. IMO.


To see through all illusion and understand the core of being (illusion), to find the purpose of what is (to see through all illusion and understand the core of being)...

IMO the answer is in the question (see my inserts above in red).


illusion (n.)
mid-14c., "act of deception," from Old French illusion "a mocking, deceit, deception" (12c.), from Latin illusionem (nominative illusio) "a mocking, jesting, irony," from illudere "mock at," literally "to play with," from assimilated form of in- "at, upon" (see in- (2)) + ludere "to play" (see ludicrous). Sense of "deceptive appearance" developed in Church Latin and was attested in English by late 14c. Related: Illusioned "full of illusions" (1920).- source (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=illusion&allowed_in_frame=0)


It's the Universal Exit.

You mean the Entrance... ;)

:cool:

theFool
04-19-2015, 01:27 PM
You can say that a game was a "piece of cake" only after you finish all the levels first.

http://ankurmans.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Overcoming-The-Fear-Of-Starting-Over.jpg

In the same way, one can say that this world is an illusion after he transcends it.


Oh there are rules to the game. Otherwise it would be boring to play. God mode is overrated. Alan Watts has a cool take on it (start at 1:12 if you are in a hurry)... So, I made this world out of boredom and left my "god powers" besides. In that case it works pretty well for the time being.. :) Plus I think there is some purpose behind this "game" process; it is not out of boredom only.

From a taoist perspective:

One can simply transform the physical body into the immortal body and leave this world or return to it at will. [..] The final goal of ascending to heaven in broad daylight is reached. There are many records in Chinese history of many thousands of Taoist immortals who reached the level of daylight ascension in the presence of many witnesses. In the Bible, Elijah and Moses also accomplished this feat. In the final stage of this practice, the adept can unite the immortal spirit body, the energy body, and the physical body, or operate them at will. It is then that the human being knows full and complete freedom as an immortal, where no world has a boundary.

... :cool:

Ilos
04-19-2015, 02:17 PM
Transcendence.

Dendritic Xylem
04-19-2015, 04:05 PM
Like T.I and alfr, I would also like to live around 2 centuries.

Many people want to move on to the next level of existence, because they are bored with their current physical existence. They seem to think the physical existence is unimportant.

It reminds me of being a young child.
Children often can't wait to grow up.
They tend to take childhood for granted.
But once they become adults, they realize how great it was being a child.

Sometimes I wonder how we would feel once we actually evolve into spirit beings beyond this material world.

A spirit might actually be somewhat jealous of us humans.
We get to experience delicious food, sex, sun bathing, pretty smelling flowers...

Non-physical beings might not be able to experience things like this.
It's just a theory...I don't necessarily believe all of this.



But getting back on topic...

I need gold to build my spaceship...:cool:

theFool
04-19-2015, 06:35 PM
I need gold to build my spaceship...:cool: :)
hm .. couldn't it be made from a lighter metal? :rolleyes: (just joking!)

JDP
04-19-2015, 07:10 PM
Like T.I and alfr, I would also like to live around 2 centuries.

Many people want to move on to the next level of existence, because they are bored with their current physical existence. They seem to think the physical existence is unimportant.

It reminds me of being a young child.
Children often can't wait to grow up.
They tend to take childhood for granted.
But once they become adults, they realize how great it was being a child.

Sometimes I wonder how we would feel once we actually evolve into spirit beings beyond this material world.

A spirit might actually be somewhat jealous of us humans.
We get to experience delicious food, sex, sun bathing, pretty smelling flowers...

Non-physical beings might not be able to experience things like this.
It's just a theory...I don't necessarily believe all of this.



But getting back on topic...

I need gold to build my spaceship...:cool:

Not to mention that there is no certainty that "a next level of existence" actually really exists. If modern medicine came up with a "pill" that could extend your life for centuries or indefinitely, while enjoying good health and physical aptitude (I am including here not becoming a "living fossil", in other words, without suffering the effects of aging), you can rest assured that all sane, rational people would take it. No one in his/her right mind would like to take a chance at giving up life and good health just to find out if there really is "something" after biological death since there is no guarantee. For all we know biological death might be the end of human consciousness: period, finito, kaput, the end, nothing else "out there". You would have to be a very compulsive gambler to want to take a chance like this voluntarily. We currently "take it" because we have no other choice, biological death is an inescapable certainty, it will come sooner or later, which is a very different situation than given a choice.

Your objectives regarding alchemy seem to be more a match to those of the Chinese alchemists, physical immortality, or at least the long extension of life, being their priority, then the transmutation of base metals into silver and gold, rather than the Western alchemists (I am including here the Islamic ones as well, as they belong to this tradition, their acquaintance with alchemy being primarily due to the pagan and early Christian Alexandrian, Byzantine, Syrian and Persian alchemical literature rather than the Chinese or Indian ones), transmutation of base metals into silver and gold being their priority, then the curing of diseases and the extension of life (notice that the concept of physical immortality is absent in this tradition as it conflicts with their religious beliefs.)

Awani
04-19-2015, 08:44 PM
Not to mention that there is no certainty that "a next level of existence" actually really exists.

The certainty of life after death is greater and more logical than the certainty of achieving immortality.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jtpf8N5IDE

:cool:

Andro
04-19-2015, 09:07 PM
The certainty of life after death is greater and more logical than the certainty of achieving immortality.

So it appears that some certainties are more certain & logical than other certainties :)


Queen - Who Wants To Live ForeverYep...

Besides - Birth (not life) is the opposite of Death.

Life is Life, regardless of physical Entry & Exit points. And life, like everything else, can occur in various states, not limited to the physical state.

Who wants to stay bound/chained to the limitations of the physical state for so long?

Perhaps those who don't have an experiential point of reference/comparison while still in the physical state.
______
I.M.S.U.

Awani
04-19-2015, 11:21 PM
So it appears that some certainties are more certain & logical than other certainties :)

Certainly.

:cool:

Bennu
04-19-2015, 11:26 PM
The certainty of life after death is greater and more logical than the certainty of achieving immortality.


I will respond that life after death implies the absence of death and presence of immortality. Isn't the perceived physicality of our existence an illusion? :o)

Awani
04-20-2015, 12:09 AM
Yes that is what I have been saying. For debates pro/con the immortality game see: Philosopher's Stone and Immortality (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?978-Philosopher-s-Stone-and-Immortality.)

:cool:

Dendritic Xylem
04-20-2015, 01:19 AM
:)
hm .. couldn't it be made from a lighter metal? :rolleyes: (just joking!)

I need a golden ship to impress the sexy aliens.




Your objectives regarding alchemy seem to be more a match to those of the Chinese alchemists, physical immortality, or at least the long extension of life, being their priority, then the transmutation of base metals into silver and gold, rather than the Western alchemists (I am including here the Islamic ones as well, as they belong to this tradition, their acquaintance with alchemy being primarily due to the pagan and early Christian Alexandrian, Byzantine, Syrian and Persian alchemical literature rather than the Chinese or Indian ones), transmutation of base metals into silver and gold being their priority, then the curing of diseases and the extension of life (notice that the concept of physical immortality is absent in this tradition as it conflicts with their religious beliefs.)

Thanks for the info, I hadn't noticed that particular distinction before. Definitely need to read more eastern works.

Kiorionis
04-20-2015, 12:13 PM
Like T.I and alfr, I would also like to live around 2 centuries.

Many people want to move on to the next level of existence, because they are bored with their current physical existence. They seem to think the physical existence is unimportant.

It reminds me of being a young child.
Children often can't wait to grow up.
They tend to take childhood for granted.
But once they become adults, they realize how great it was being a child.

Sometimes I wonder how we would feel once we actually evolve into spirit beings beyond this material world.

A spirit might actually be somewhat jealous of us humans.
We get to experience delicious food, sex, sun bathing, pretty smelling flowers...

Non-physical beings might not be able to experience things like this.
It's just a theory...I don't necessarily believe all of this.



But getting back on topic...

I need gold to build my spaceship...:cool:


Thanks for the info, I hadn't noticed that particular distinction before. Definitely need to read more eastern works.

My alchemical agenda is similar to the Eastern works as well, Mr. DX.

Except I don't much care for living for centuries. My designs are closer to finding a way to open up 'pre-natal breath' (the breath you used while in the womb), so that I no longer need to waste my 'post-natal breath' (the breath you use outside of the womb).
But I'm in no rush. Rushing around is one way to use up life force.

If you're interested in spaceship building, I would look into the 'Immortal Fetus'

There is also this: The Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji (http://www.taoiststudy.com/content/zhong-l%C3%BC-chuan-dao-ji-%E9%90%98%E5%91%82%E5%82%B3%E9%81%93%E9%9B%86%E9%9 2%9F%E5%90%95%E4%BC%A0%E9%81%93%E9%9B%86) (鐘呂傳道集/钟吕传道集)

The book is a dialogue between two of the eight immortal Taoist alchemists on alchemical terminology and methods, and divides Immortality into five different classes:


Guǐxiān ("Ghost Immortal"): A person who cultivates too much yin energy. These immortals are likened to Vampires because they drain the life essence of the living, much like the fox spirit. Ghost immortals do not leave the realm of ghosts.

Rénxiān (“Human Immortal”): Humans have an equal balance of yin and yang energies, so they have the potential of becoming either a ghost or immortal. Although they continue to hunger and thirst and require clothing and shelter like a normal human, these immortals do not suffer from aging or sickness. Human immortals do not leave the realm of humans. [21] There are many sub-classes of human immortals.

Dìxiān (“Earth Immortal”): When the yin is transformed into the pure yang, a true immortal body will emerge that does not need food, drink, clothing or shelter and is not effected by hot or cold temperatures. Earth immortals do not leave the realm of earth. These immortals are forced to stay on earth until they shed their human form.

Shénxiān ("Spirit Immortal"): The immortal body of the earthbound class will eventually change into vapor through further practice. They have supernatural powers and can take on the shape of any object. These immortals must remain on earth acquiring merit by teaching mankind about the Tao. Spirit immortals do not leave the realm of spirits. Once enough merit is accumulated, they are called to heaven by a celestial decree.

Tiānxiān (“Celestial Immortal”) – Spirit immortals who are summoned to heaven are given the minor office of water realm judge. Over time, they are promoted to oversee the earth realm and finally become administrators of the celestial realm. These immortals have the power to travel back and forth between the earthly and celestial realms.

Salazius
04-20-2015, 12:59 PM
Alchemical Agenda ?

1. Stone of Pure SM
2. Stone of Bastard way
3. Stone of Erzats way
4. Tests of transmutations
5. Tests of rejuvenation, and bye bye, exit at the end of the duty.

6. Giving it to animals, plants, oceans, air, earth. Generation of news species. Healing bees. Giving it to humans.

Michael Sternbach
04-20-2015, 05:09 PM
I think immortality could be a lot of fun. Seeing mankind's developments over the centuries and making a personal contribution every now and then.

Illen A. Cluf
04-21-2015, 02:17 PM
And what would be the alchemical pursuit for you?



For me, the real alchemical pursuit is a means to bring us closer to the Creative Force, whether you call it 'God', 'Creator', or whatever.

The pursuit of gold is just a blind, created by the past alchemists to mislead the profane. I believe that the ancient alchemists were actually pursuing meditative states that led to “peak experiences”. Their real purpose was not material possessions but the spiritual progress of the soul. Alchemy became a means to study how spirit and matter intermingled and became one. At the same time, the alchemist tried to mingle his own soul/spirit with his “creation” and so enter a journey of discovery of how he was part of everything.

I believe that we made a wrong turn several centuries ago when we tried, through Logic and Science, to separate everything from each other. The alchemists attempt to bring it all back together again through a process of divine Union. Only when there is total, inseparable Union of Soul, Spirit and Body, can one begin to understand the Will of the Creator.

In my opinion, there is nothing more important than the pursuit of advancing our Soul/Spirit by removing the many veils that have been erected by civilization through various forms of “control” and “power” to hide the real truths from ourselves.

Andro
04-21-2015, 02:40 PM
Salazius Mon Cher, your less than perfect English is no match for your wonderful words :)

You also summarized the fundamentals of my own agenda, in different words...

Agenda:


Bye bye, exit at the end of the duty.

(I would replace 'duty' with 'addiction', though... And refer to this Exit as 'The Great Perfection')

The means to support this agenda, combined with the compatible "mind state":


Stone of Pure SM

And lastly, the "Will & Testament":


Giving it...

:cool:

thoth
04-21-2015, 10:49 PM
https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/wizard-of-oz.gif

I'd like to see whats really behind the curtain - got a little glimpse in Amsterdam :)

I think the queue to enter this life could be like the queue in the fun park to get on one of the best rides. Why leave the party early, but it would be nice to be more AWARE so the party is even better, (or get on one of the exclusive secret rides !).

Bel Matina
05-08-2015, 06:16 AM
I've long said that if you want to live forever, it's got to be now.

Until recently I didn't have the leisure of thinking through my agenda. It was all following Ariadne's thread, trying to make sense of the mess of a world that I'd found myself in.

Now that I think about it, it doesn't make sense to me to think of an agenda as mine. The work lives through me now, instead of the other way around. What moved me was always the desired to be liberated from need. Fairly indifferently to whose need, whether mine I couldn't meet or those that moved others to harry me with incomprehensible demands. The pain is leaving now, but as I rise I see the force that lifted me race out against the lack of resistance, out past my own toward the need around me, that I can see, that I can conceive of, maybe beyond.

Weird.