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Aaron
06-30-2015, 03:15 PM
Hi everyone,

I recently stumbled upon very very detailled and well explained texts/symbols about the world. The problem is, even though they are in german (old german) I am not able to understand them (Not because of the language, but because of it's meaning). It seems like it was explained for the most simple of minds, but I can't quite get my head around it.

I guess I am not ready to understand it yet.

I would be glad if some of you (especially german speakers) could help get an understanding out of it. Also, I thought it somehow is my duty to share it with you guys, because those PDF's seem to be like the holy grail of knowledge.

Unfortunately I am not able to upload them here (around 65 MB in total). But HERE (LINK) (http://tetraktys.de/mystik-2.html) on the bottom of the page, on the right side you can find them. The download links are called "Heft 1", "Heft 2" and "Heft 3".

To give you a quick impression, I made some screenshots for you guys.

http://i.imgur.com/vJBrSJv.jpg

The text on the bottom of this tablet says the following (Sorry for my bad translation, but it's an old german text written in verse):
The person who understands this table correctly, sees how one happens from the other. Firstly everything [is part of] the number four. The elements, everywhere, from which the three [Beginnings] [emanate / originate], which yield the two sexes. Male, female, from sun and moon, emanates the imperial son: Whom nothing in the world is equal, and surpasses every kingdom.

http://i.imgur.com/wTMKH9X.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wvzos9g.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/mArQpbI.jpg

Best wishes,

Aaron


I just saw in the preview, that the pictures are quite big. If this disturbs anyone, please tell me how to include them more comfortable for reading in this post.

3+O(
07-08-2015, 03:17 PM
An English translation of "The Secret Symbols of the Rosicrucians of the 16th and 17th centuries" can be found at http://www.rosecroixjournal.org/resources/index.html

ArcherSage
11-15-2016, 10:55 AM
The 2nd image is an obvious play on the sefirot from the Kabbalah.

Andro
11-15-2016, 11:22 AM
An English translation of "The Secret Symbols of the Rosicrucians of the 16th and 17th centuries" can be found at http://www.rosecroixjournal.org/resources/index.html

Hi 3+O( -

I can't find the English version of "The Secret Symbols of the Rosicrucians" in the above link. There are other texts, but this one seems to be missing. Or am I missing something?

Thanks...

zoas23
11-15-2016, 05:04 PM
I am very familiar with this text, as well with "Magia Divina" ( http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4973-Magia-Divina )...

Of which I told Andro that they are not what he thought that they were. Both of them belong to the Hermetic & Christian Qabalah tradition... and discuss Alchemy in a philosophical way, but I would not call them "Alchemical books"... they are closer to Knorr von Rosenroth.

Understanding these two texts (Magia Divina and Secret Symbols) involve a quite advanced knowledge of Qabalah because they are very encrypted and the "keys" are not in those texts (you can read them 1,000 times and they won't make sense unless you already know how to decipher them).

The first table is related to two quaternaries YHVH and "God, Son, Holy Spirit and Man"

And it is "opened" by two other pages of the book:

https://s11.postimg.org/5qb0aw15f/Captura_de_pantalla_2016_11_15_a_las_1_30_59_p_m.p ng

https://s11.postimg.org/knjhbwedv/Captura_de_pantalla_2016_11_15_a_las_1_31_42_p_m.p ng

Both books involve the idea that the idea of Jesus (YHShVH) was implicit in the Old Testament and that the Shin came to redeem the demiurgic idea of YHVH (Jehovah), the four elements, with the inclusion of the Shin.

They involve Qabalistic operations which are not truly disclosed there, but are related to extracting the number 666 from the "secret Fire" of the Shin, from the number 5, 6, 7 and 11... though the "how-to-do-it" is not explained there (I don´t really remember a book that explains how to do it).

And the Secret Symbols contain a lot of references to the four worlds of the Qabalah (Atziluth, Briah, Yetzirah, Assiah)... i.e, the last figure posted in the first post shows the four Olam / Worlds.

The two of them contain the whole "philosophy" of Alchemy, but they are not really books that you can take to the Lab and follow them as if they were a "recipe".

i.e, the KEY number in both of them is the number 666, which represents the Stone.
If you wanna know how to extract it from 11, it's simple the Hexagram as the triangle of water and the triangle of fire (Mem and Shin respectively = 40 + 300)... and the Pentagram representing YHShVH (10 + 5 + 300 + 6 + 5 = 326)... and 340 + 326 = 666... and, of course, the Hexagram is representing the Old Testament and the Pentagram is the New Testament.

Other procedures extract the number from the Shin, from the 5, 6 and the 7.

Andro
11-15-2016, 05:46 PM
Both books involve the idea that the idea of Jesus (YHShVH) was implicit in the Old Testament and that the Shin came to redeem the demiurgic idea of YHVH (Jehovah), the four elements, with the inclusion of the Shin.

What's a bit strange (to me) is that YHVH is spelled יהוה in Hebrew, while YHShVH is generally spelled יהושוע in Hebrew - from the root ישע, meaning 'salvation' (and extra ו and an ע, and without a second ה) - - - unless you go for the spelling that makes less contextual sense - יהשוה


The Hexagram is representing the Old Testament and the Pentagram is the New Testament.

From Hex to (Re)pent :)

zoas23
11-15-2016, 06:31 PM
What's a bit strange (to me) is that YHVH is spelled יהוה in Hebrew, while YHShVH is generally spelled יהושוע in Hebrew - from the root ישע, meaning 'salvation' (and extra ו and an ע, and without a second ה) - - - unless you go for the spelling that makes less contextual sense - יהשוה

Y H Sh V H is a very "forced" spelling, but it has been traditionally used like that in Rosicrucian contexts.. with the sole purpose of adding a Shin to YHVH.
I don't even believe that "Jesus" was a real person and even if he had been a real person, I doubt that he wrote his name as "YHShVH"... but there is a LONG tradition of using this "forced spelling". You are not wrong when you say that its orthography is incorrect, but you won't find YHShVO in any "Christian Qabalah" book.

ArcherSage
11-15-2016, 06:56 PM
The Talmud contains a historical record of him as "Yeshu" not too many years before he was supposed to have been born. They accuse Yeshu of being a false prophet who was a disloyal Jew and brought sorcery out of Egypt, remember Christ was raised in Egypt, Alexandria specifically in some texts. They had him hung from a tree not crucified, and they do not mention the Resurrection. I believe it could be the same individual, as they also accused him of worshiping fish imagery.

zoas23
11-15-2016, 07:10 PM
The Talmud contains a historical record of him as "Yeshu" not too many years before he was supposed to have been born. They accuse Yeshu of being a false prophet who was a disloyal Jew and brought sorcery out of Egypt, remember Christ was raised in Egypt, Alexandria specifically in some texts. They had him hung from a tree not crucified, and they do not mention the Resurrection. I believe it could be the same individual, as they also accused him of worshiping fish imagery.

The idea of humans as evolved fishes was a classical Greek idea (Pythagoras, Anaximander) and related to the number 153... which was also equivalent to a frog (this reminds me of the alchemist of the frogs, Mr. Ripley... who metaphorically and literally investigated how to evolve a frog).

Andro
11-15-2016, 07:17 PM
The Talmud contains a historical record of him as "Yeshu" not too many years before he was supposed to have been born. They accuse Yeshu of being a false prophet who was a disloyal Jew and brought sorcery out of Egypt, remember Christ was raised in Egypt, Alexandria specifically in some texts. They had him hung from a tree not crucified, and they do not mention the Resurrection. I believe it could be the same individual, as they also accused him of worshiping fish imagery.

Firstly, I just checked and the Hebrew spelling is ישוע and not יהושוע as I wrote earlier. Still not fitting the 'forced spelling' of יהשוה (thus ignoring the original Hebrew root ישע).

Secondly, the name 'Yeshu' (ישו) is often associated in rabbinical writings with the initials of: ימח שמו וזכרו - meaning "May his name and memory be obliterated".

Religious trolling never grows old, on any side...

zoas23
11-15-2016, 07:50 PM
Firstly, I just checked and the Hebrew spelling is ישוע and not יהושוע as I wrote earlier. Still not fitting the 'forced spelling' of יהשוה (thus ignoring the original Hebrew root ישע).

Secondly, the name 'Yeshu' (ישו) is often associated in rabbinical writings with the initials of: ימח שמו וזכרו - meaning "May his name and memory be obliterated".

Religious trolling never grows old, on any side...



Oh, you won't find ANY reference to YHShVH previous to the XVII century. It is actually a FORCED spelling and a product of Hermetic Qabalah... created because it was convenient.
The name is, as you've said, historically and orthographically, incorrect. I am 100% aware of it (I think that probably ALL the authors that use that name are aware that it is an "artifice" or a "forced spelling").... and the idea is to introduce a fifth letter into the tetragrammaton YHVH as the "secret fire" that creates a transmutation in the four elements.
You are not wrong when you claim that it is historically and orthographically wrong.

I've never read the Talmud to be honest, I'm not very interested in it.

Andro
11-15-2016, 08:16 PM
I am not THAT interested in this topic myself, but I have noticed more than once how original Hebrew root-words and letter combinations are being mutilated by Western occult currents to fit their boxes and theorems. I'm not such a big Hebrew scholar myself, but I happen to have received private lessons (with a private tutor) in Hebrew (my mother is a linguist by training, so it also meant private lessons in other languages as well, including private English lessons from age 3 :)).

Anyway, there is an extremely well founded logic and reasoning to WHY Hebrew words and roots are constructed the way they are constructed, and alterations are highly likely to miss the entire concept/context of the intended meaning.

Personally, if I'd go for Qabalistic teachings, I'd go for the Lurianic system OR for the more modern (and more open-minded) real Hebrew-based schools, especially if there's a Gnostic flavor involved...

My 'advice' to Western R+C schools who dabble in Hebrew-based Qabala would be to either properly study Hebrew (especially the grammar and the root system) OR stick to Latin or to their own native tongues (German, French, etc...)


Oh, you won't find ANY reference to YHShVH previous to the XVII century. It is actually a FORCED spelling and a product of Hermetic Qabalah... created because it was convenient.
The name is, as you've said, historically and orthographically, incorrect. I am 100% aware of it (I think that probably ALL the authors that use that name are aware that it is an "artifice" or a "forced spelling").... and the idea is to introduce a fifth letter into the tetragrammaton YHVH as the "secret fire" that creates a transmutation in the four elements.
You are not wrong when you claim that it is historically and orthographically wrong.

I've never read the Talmud to be honest, I'm not very interested in it.

zoas23
11-15-2016, 08:44 PM
I am not THAT interested in this topic myself, but I have noticed more than once how original Hebrew root-words and letter combinations are being mutilated by Western occult currents to fit their boxes and theorems. I'm not such a big Hebrew scholar myself, but I happen to have received private lessons (with a private tutor) in Hebrew (my mother is a linguist by training, so it also meant private lessons in other languages as well, including private English lessons from age 3 :)).

Anyway, there is an extremely well founded logic and reasoning to WHY Hebrew words and roots are constructed the way they are constructed, and alterations are highly likely to miss the entire concept/context of the intended meaning.

Personally, if I'd go for Qabalistic teachings, I'd go for the Lurianic system OR for the more modern (and more open-minded) real Hebrew-based schools, especially if there's a Gnostic flavor involved...

My 'advice' to Western R+C schools who dabble in Hebrew-based Qabala would be to either properly study Hebrew (especially the grammar and the root system) OR stick to Latin or to their own native tongues (German, French, etc...)

Andro:

1) The so called Hermetic Qabalah is 100% based on Luria and completely Gnostic.

2) ALL the systems of Qabalah are mostly identical... I've had the great experience of talking to a Rabbiwho had studied Qabalah for 50 years (the translator of the works of Philo of Alexandria to Spanish) for some 6 hours... his basis was Rabbinic, my basis was Hermetic, and yet our language was the same... we found no contradictions in our ideas. It is actually the SAME thing.

3) Probably the only difference is the inclusion of YHShVH... I get why such "artifice" was included, but if you forget that "alteration", then it's the same thing.

4) The person who taught me Qabalah was a collaborator of Kaplan, probably the most notorious and best contemporary Rabbi (he's dead nowadays, but he died a decade ago or so). They never had a problem in collaborating and sharing ideas even if their basis were "different".

5) There is only ONE Qabalah.***

6) The Rosicrucian tradition never gave much importance to Latin, neither to Greek.

7) The roots are very important in Qabalah... this is also true for the Rosicrucian use of Qabalah. Some things don't even make sense without understanding them.

8) The basis for Qabalah is always the Sepher Yetzirah, the Sepher Bahir, the Zohar, etc... this is true for a Rabbi, this is true for a "Hermetic Qabalist"... I think that most of your complains are not truly justified and it's a prejudice (assuming that something works in a way, when it works in a different way).


*** The only person who did something a bit "strange" was Abulafia, but still the prophetic Qabalah of Abulafia is not a "different" Qabalah actually.

Andro
11-15-2016, 08:57 PM
I think that most of your complains are not truly justified and it's a prejudice (assuming that something works in a way, when it works in a different way).

Maybe. But I've seen other examples in Western mysticism (not just YHShVH) 'mutilating' Hebrew roots and twisting/rearranging them to fit their theorems. It's even worse when they 'translate' it to English, assuming that the same linguistic templates & alphabetically expressed thought-forms apply. Maybe it doesn't occur at the more 'initiated' levels', but it's a rather common phenomenon in various circles...

Andro
11-15-2016, 09:22 PM
Questions:

How much (if any) of R+C Christian mysticism is based on the New Testament?

What was the original language of the books compiling the New Testament? (gospels, epistles, etc...)

Did/do those who are mostly influenced by Christian Gnosticism also use the Qabala as an initiatory and/or operative system?

zoas23
11-15-2016, 09:57 PM
Maybe. But I've seen other examples in Western mysticism (not just YHShVH) 'mutilating' Hebrew roots and twisting/rearranging them to fit their theorems. It's even worse when they 'translate' it to English, assuming that the same linguistic templates & alphabetically expressed thought-forms apply. Maybe it doesn't occur at the more 'initiated' levels', but it's a rather common phenomenon in various circles...

There are bad books about Qabalah, in the same way that there are bad books about Alchemy, bad books about Gnosticism and bad books about Quantum Physics.
In my own case, as I've said, I had the chance of speaking for some 6 hours with a Rabbi who studied Qabalah for 50 years (I am not even 50 years old) and the conversation was very interesting for both of us... and I don't remember any disagreement between us (the only strange thing for him was that I was not a Rabbi and found it odd that someone like me was interested in Philo and in Qabalah).

Other than that, everyone who studies Qabalah in a serious way drinks from the SAME sources (Sepher Yetzirah, Sepher Bahir, Zohar, the early Hekhalot corpus, Sepher Raziel HaMalakh, The Sword of Moses, etc, etc, etc)... and then some people likes Abulafia and others hate him (I like him)...

The worthy authors don't translate the expressions, though transliterations are quite common due to the complexity of using Hebrew fonts... but saying מלכות and Malkuth is the same as long as you remember that its gematria is 496, which is reduced to 10.

Alchemy is quite diverse (I've tried to read a text of Chinese alchemy and all I got was a headache), but Qabalah isn't.

The BIG differences between more Christian oriented visions of Qabalah are not in the ignorance of the basis, but in giving interpretations to some things that a more jewish oriented Qabalah would not accept. As to give an example, it is typical in Hermetic texts, when the Luriatic פרצופים are discussed to identify the זְעֵיר אַנפִּין with Christ, whilst a Rabbi will probably not agree, because the idea of Christ does not make sense to him... and yet the זְעֵיר אַנפִּין means the same and has the same "functions". The "differences" are very similar to this example... and yet I see no difference, because it's the same thing.

I am aware of the existence of books which are "Qabalah for dummies"... but they have the same value than any book that is "X thing for dummies". Don't expect to find something of worth there.

ArcherSage
11-15-2016, 09:58 PM
I personally believe in the historical Yeshu who later the story of Christ was based upon. The Talmud makes almost no difference between the two stories, just a few minor differences regarding his "miraculous" birth. Yeshu claimed to be the son of God and a virgin but there are theories that this was his way of hiding the fact that his mother committed adultery with a roman soldier. But I do believe he led a secret society of sorts that was based off of Hermetic traditions and the knowledge of transmutation and other things. And of course the pisces symbolism of him bringing forth a new age is obvious, with early christian drawings having Jesus in the center of the zodiac with the disciples surrounding him.

Check out this video, this guys youtube channel is based on him asking questions to people who live in the middle east regarding many issues including ancient topics, skip to 12 mins to see one of the more interesting things a modern Jew had to say about him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCUxTFt8pB0

zoas23
11-16-2016, 06:02 AM
Questions:

I missed this post!!! I had not seen it.... good questions and useful to clarify some issues. I feel that the honest answers can be controversial... but that's OK for me.


How much (if any) of R+C Christian mysticism is based on the New Testament?

That's a hard question (or long one to explain rather than hard).

-The central figure of the tradition is clearly Christian Rosenkreuz, whose biography was explained is the 3 founding books (two manifestos and one novel). The biography was willingly written in a way that makes it willingly obvious that the character is 100% fictional. The early Rosicrucian texts show an absolute rejection for Religious fanaticism and giving the main role to a character that even a fool would notice that is fictional was probably part of that project.

-His myth involves a pilgrimage that lead him to create an Order. In his mythic pilgrimage he studied with muslims, persians (zoroastrians) and jews. The tradition is clearly Christian, but in an explicit way accepts to be a Christian hybrid of many religions... and strongly rejecting religious prejudices against other religions (quite the opposite, it gives them a value, it makes them become part of the big "puzzle").

-The manifestos have a very strong political tone and their main target is the Roman Catholic church, which is even taken as an enemy. Some other comments in the manifestos involve a criticism of the conquest of American continent and the injustices committed there just for greed.

-The Bible is one of the books that the manifestos mention, but they claim that it contains scientific ideas denied by the church... the position of the manifestos is identical to the position of Galileo and his "two books" (the Bible and the "book of Nature" -i.e, Nature itself). The tone is certainly scientific (with a XVII century definition of science, something that didn't exclude alchemy, astrology and magic).

-The four books mentioned in the manifestos in an explicit way are the Bible and 3 Books called respectively "M", "H", and "I" (about alchemy, magic and Astrology; Qabalah; and the Theurgy of the Order).

-The Rosicrucian mysticism is 100% GNOSTIC... So the New Testament is NOT interpreted in a literal way... and the inner secrets, which are quite explicit in later texts like the "Secret Symbols" show a clear doctrine that would be considered the WORST heresy by any of the established Churches (Roman, Orthodox and Protestant). The nature of this "heresy" is very clear here:


https://s13.postimg.org/k9hk08t2f/Captura_de_pantalla_2016_11_16_a_las_2_23_07_a_m.p ng

(Image taken from the "Secret Symbols"... describing 4 entities with an equal onthological status... 3 of them are explicitly written... no Church would ever accept this idea, which somehow changes the whole meaning of the Bible).

-The "novel" doesn't mention the Bible or Jesus at all and only deals with Greek Pagan deities... especially Venus and Cupid.

-The rite itself is strongly focused on the contact with a female entity: Venus-Sophia-Isis... just like the classical Gnosticism.


What was the original language of the books compiling the New Testament? (gospels, epistles, etc...)

Since I know you are not an ignorant, but quite the opposite, I assume this one is a rhetorical question... Koiné Greek, of course.


Did/do those who are mostly influenced by Christian Gnosticism also use the Qabala as an initiatory and/or operative system?

YES and that's explicit even in the original manifestos. I would like to add that the True origins of Qabalah are to be found in Christian Gnosticism (to be precise, Marcosian Gnosticism). If you don't believe me, just read the Iraneous chapter on Marcus on "Against the Heresies" and the Sepher Yetzirah and you will find out that it's exactly the same thing.

The Roman Conquest was a slap in the face to a lot of National Prides and several traditions "plagiarized" (I'm not using the word in a derogative sense, I love the texts I will talk about) the most neo-platonic side of Gnosticism, but giving them a "National Pride" sense. That's how Qabalah was created, that's how the Chaldean Oracles were invented, that's how Hermeticism was invented (it is impossible to read the Corpus Hermeticum and not notice that ONE of its messages is "we are Egyptians, we are better than the Greeks and the Romans").

So Qabalah is, essentially, Gnostic (and strongly influenced by Christian Gnosticism -Marcosianism)... which is fine for me, no other of these traditions has gone as far as Qabalah did in preserving a knowledge that would otherwise be lost. Thus when I say "plagiarism" I do not mean it in a derogative at all... it's an adaptation of Gnostic ideas that was used to go deeper into the Jewish religion... but its Gnostic influence is so obvious that it can be used to understand any of the traditions I mentioned above.

I.e, the "Secret Symbols" clearly propose a Gnostic Christian Theology... but they are impossible to understand without using the tools that Qabalah provides.

The Rosicrucian tradition is, in that sense, very inclusive and strongly opposed to the idea of "we can't use X thing because it's not Christian"... the ideology is almost identical to the inclusive ideology of the 900 Thesis of Pico della Mirandola (a person I admire the most... and who mostly tried to show that the "truth" can be found in ANY religion and that none of them was "better" than the others... and that it was stupid to reject an idea just because it belongs to a Religion that is not "your Religion"... Pico mostly said: I am Christian, and all the other religions are as good as Christianity and I NEED them to understand my own ideas -and he did something lovely i his testament / last will... he had a HUGE book collection and gave it to a friend, but his Testament clarified that his books should be given to his friend to another person after his death and so on, but NEVER, NEVER, NEVER any of them should be donated or given to a Church).

Andro
11-17-2016, 02:40 PM
Since I know you are not an ignorant, but quite the opposite, I assume this one is a rhetorical question... Koiné Greek, of course.

Not entirely rhetorical as it turns out, because I learned a new word: Koiné (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koin%C3%A9_language) :)