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zoas23
08-27-2015, 02:36 AM
Pardon me for asking such a silly question.

I tried to find the answer using the search box, but I didn't find the answer in the results.

After a simple and conventional plant calcination and reducing it to ashes...
The ashes are solved in water and after filtering and etc you finally get K2CO3.

However, after this procedure it is possible to do the same with the ashes in alcohol and follow an identical procedure and get a salt that is soluble in alcohol (I've seen it being called "salt of sulphur" somewhere). An alcohol-soluble salt... it is obviously not K2CO3, but what is it?

crestind
08-27-2015, 03:10 AM
The main components of ashes are K and Na carbonates. Na carbonate is supposedly slightly soluble in alcohol. Alcohol is a nonpolar solvent, but most of the compounds in ashes should be polar.

So it's possible it's not an ordinary chemical reaction, but an extraction of something. Alcohol is often used for extractions. Reminds me of Paracelsus and his rocks.

It would help if you posted the full process too so that we may all learn from it. The more context the better. Process, title, author, location, date, etc. can all give insights as to what is happening. Author can give us an idea of what else the individual has worked with, dates can give us an idea of the state of scientific knowledge and rule out certain processes, etc.

Edit, found one mention of "salt of sulphur" here
https://books.google.com/books?id=BPWDrnEJ7UsC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=salt+of+sulphur&source=bl&ots=aUKZbQUPLb&sig=7-D7n8FO1iCkeP9DMxmpI3C7vF4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAmoVChMI0OGwjqnIxwIVTRKSCh1JLApR#v=on epage&q=salt%20of%20sulphur&f=false

zoas23
08-27-2015, 03:31 AM
The main components of ashes are K and Na carbonates. Na carbonate is supposedly slightly soluble in alcohol. Alcohol is a nonpolar solvent, but most of the compounds in ashes should be polar.

So it's possible it's not an ordinary chemical reaction, but an extraction of something. Alcohol is often used for extractions. Reminds me of Paracelsus and his rocks.

It would help if you posted the full process too so that we may all learn from it. The more context the better. Process, title, author, location, date, etc. can all give insights as to what is happening. Author can give us an idea of what else the individual has worked with, dates can give us an idea of the state of scientific knowledge and rule out certain processes, etc.

This is simply a rudimentary work I did with Melissa without doing anything too complex.
I don't have pics, but I will do it again next week probably.
I will shoot photos of everything (don't expect anything that goes beyond the most basic procedures).
I assumed it was "normal".
I got "non polar" salts from the Melissa. I believe I can do it again (though I believe that anyone can -no "big secrets" involved at all).

Andro
08-27-2015, 08:01 AM
Zoas,

This Alcohol-soluble Salt you mention, does it have any 'Levity'?

(i.e. does it have a tendency to 'climb' the walls/sides of the vessel by itself, without an external stimulus, such as heat?)

Does it form 'unusual' patterns on the sides of the glass?

zoas23
08-27-2015, 10:13 AM
Zoas,

This Alcohol-soluble Salt you mention, does it have any 'Levity'?

(i.e. does it have a tendency to 'climb' the walls/sides of the vessel by itself, without an external stimulus, such as heat?)

Does it form 'unusual' patterns on the sides of the glass?

The salt crystalized on the walls of the vessel, yes.

The vessel I use to crystalize looks more or less like this:

http://g02.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1khnYHpXXXXa9aXXXq6xXFXXXk/235CM-high-temperature-resistant-400-degree-pyrex.jpg

(ignore the "advertisment", I simply wanted to show the vessel and a "real" photo didn't make sense).

With the vessel filled with alcohol almost to the top, the salt crystalized on the walls, but on the lower 1/3 of the walls (i.e, no salt on the upper 2/3 of the walls)... and almost no salt on the flat bottom of the vessel either. Other than being crystalized on the walls, the salt did nothing specially "amazing"... and it was a bit yellowish (white, but with a certain yellow tone... the color of a very old white t-shirt as to explain it somehow).

The leeching in alcohol was done AFTER several leechings in water until there was nothing water-soluble left.

Other than that, what I used was Melissa... the calcination was done with a normal cooking pot first and fire (both direct* and indirect)

Direct = torch

And then with a bunsen and a porcelain crucible.

As I've said: no "secret procedures" or "unusual procedures" were used... we are talking about the most vulgar calcination possible.

I will do it again next week and shoot photos of everything. Hopefully the result will be the same.

To be honest, I thought that this whole thing was "usual".

(the water I used for leeching in water was rain water -distilled- Maybe there was some "shit" in the water like pollution???)

(The alcohol I used was commercial alcohol with 98% ethanol).

But, as to be clear... all I did is the most basic standard procedure and nothing "strange".

EDIT: absolutely unrelated to the post, but I wanted to say that I am VERY VERY VERY pleased to have the privilege of being able to have conversations with you again, Androgynus. I owe you more than I am able to explain.

Ghislain
08-27-2015, 01:10 PM
Just a quick one relating to calcination...is it ok to allow naked flame onto the material being calcinated?

I have done this before, but it felt wrong.

Ghislain

Dendritic Xylem
08-27-2015, 06:38 PM
Alcohol is a nonpolar solvent, but most of the compounds in ashes should be polar.

I thought alcohol was a polar solvent. Isn't that why it dissolves in water, whereas a non-polar solvent like ether would not easily dissolve in water?

zoas23
08-27-2015, 08:48 PM
Just a quick one relating to calcination...is it ok to allow naked flame onto the material being calcinated?

I have done this before, but it felt wrong.

Ghislain

This is somehow "off topic", but I'll give you my view.
I got this idea from this forum, from Salazius if I am not wrong (I think I am not).

It does not make a "big" difference in the result, but it makes a HUGE difference in the amount of smoke with "horrible smell" that you get whilst doing the calcination.
If "lots of smoke with bad smell" is a problem to you due to your circumstances.... then I really suggest the "torch" for the initial parts of the calcination (once the calcination advances, the torch can no longer be used simply because the pressure of the gas that it liberates makes the ashes fly all over the air... but whilst the matter is more "heavy", the torch CAN make a huge difference when it comes to undesired bad smells).

crestind
08-28-2015, 06:56 PM
I thought alcohol was a polar solvent. Isn't that why it dissolves in water, whereas a non-polar solvent like ether would not easily dissolve in water?
Now that I look into it, apparently it's both.
http://www.easychem.com.au/production-of-materials/renewable-ethanol/ethanol-as-a-solvent