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Illen A. Cluf
09-18-2015, 06:15 PM
This is something I've long wondered. Many texts mention that either a White or Red Stone can be made, depending on whether Sol or Luna is used. I know that the White Stone is supposed to transmute metals into Silver, and that the Red Stone is supposed to transmute metals into Gold, but other than that, what difference is there in the medical or other use of each of these two Stones? I have not seen one treatise specifically mention the use of the White Stone. If both have the same medical or longevity attribute, other than for the greedy purpose of making Gold, why even bother making the far more expensive Red Stone at all?

Kiorionis
09-19-2015, 06:48 AM
I think this has to do with keeping 'secrets'. Some alchemists talk little about White and some talk mostly about Red.

What really needs to be talked about imo is the interaction between the White and the Red

Illen A. Cluf
09-19-2015, 05:28 PM
I think this has to do with keeping 'secrets'. Some alchemists talk little about White and some talk mostly about Red.

What really needs to be talked about imo is the interaction between the White and the Red

I know that there is "red" and "white" all along the process, from the initial preparation, the "starting matters", the colour changes, and the final powder, whether white or red. So there can be interaction DURING the process, but I have not heard or read of any "interaction" between the final red OR white powders AFTER the process.

I'm very interested in learning what, specifically, is the interaction that you are referring to?

Seth-Ra
09-19-2015, 10:20 PM
From my understanding and experiments; the White is prepared by using Silver (Ag), leading to a white crystalline powder good for medicine. The Red is made from Gold (Au), making a red crystalline powder, that in small doses, prepared right, can be a great medicine.
But these are but Sulphur and Salt, and need to be joined in the Alchemical Wedding (via Mercury (not Hg)) to make The Stone.



~Seth-Ra

Illen A. Cluf
09-20-2015, 12:48 AM
From my understanding and experiments; the White is prepared by using Silver (Ag), leading to a white crystalline powder good for medicine. The Red is made from Gold (Au), making a red crystalline powder, that in small doses, prepared right, can be a great medicine.
But these are but Sulphur and Salt, and need to be joined in the Alchemical Wedding (via Mercury (not Hg)) to make The Stone.

~Seth-Ra

Circles and circles! So confusing! My understanding is that the alchemical wedding occurs BEFORE either the white or red stone is made. It is after our Sulphur (Gold or Silver depending on whether a white or red stone is desired) and our Mercury (Secret Fire - a compound also consisting of red and white) are joined in the alchemical wedding.

Seth-Ra
09-20-2015, 01:54 AM
Circles and circles! So confusing! My understanding is that the alchemical wedding occurs BEFORE either the white or red stone is made. It is after our Sulphur (Gold or Silver depending on whether a white or red stone is desired) and our Mercury (Secret Fire - a compound also consisting of red and white) are joined in the alchemical wedding.

Yes, it is circles within circles. :)
You're right - it happens within the singular materials, making them whole unto themselves - and then unifying them together - a greater cycle than before.
It's akin to what happens between a male working to make himself spiritual and whole, and a female doing the same - and then they come together in harmonious unity as wholes, and oppisames - a paradoxical, homogenous, androgengous mixture giving birth to an all-encompassing, all-realizing/manifesting Singularity.




~Seth-Ra

Kiorionis
09-20-2015, 02:09 AM
Couldn't have said it better myself Seth-ra ;)

Illen A. Cluf
09-20-2015, 02:39 AM
Yes, it is circles within circles. :)
You're right - it happens within the singular materials, making them whole unto themselves - and then unifying them together - a greater cycle than before.
It's akin to what happens between a male working to make himself spiritual and whole, and a female doing the same - and then they come together in harmonious unity as wholes, and oppisames - a paradoxical, homogenous, androgengous mixture giving birth to an all-encompassing, all-realizing/manifesting Singularity.

~Seth-Ra

True, that deals with the processes leading to the initial androgynous union, but we still haven't got to my initial concern - the two resultant androgynous powders resulting from the two separate processes. We no longer are dealing with a single, all-encompassing singularity, but the contradictory state of TWO all-encompassing "singlularities" - the white and red powders. As I asked before, why bother with two different powders when one will suffice? And if one suffices, why bother using Gold, which is many times more expensive than silver? The question remains as before.

Seth-Ra
09-20-2015, 03:01 AM
That's just it, they aren't exactly the same. My last post was about the two androgynous powders. They aren't the same, though similar. They are still oppisames that can be united.
The difference between them as stand-alone substances, are similar to the differences between gold and silver themselves. Both are valuable. Both are healing. It's a thing of polarities and energies.




~Seth-Ra

Kiorionis
09-20-2015, 03:34 AM
. . .the two resultant androgynous powders resulting from the two separate processes. We no longer are dealing with a single, all-encompassing singularity, but the contradictory state of TWO all-encompassing "singlularities" - the white and red powders. As I asked before, why bother with two different powders when one will suffice? And if one suffices, why bother using Gold, which is many times more expensive than silver? The question remains as before.

I don't see Gold and Mercury creating an androgynous stone. I see it as having made a diluted and enlivened Gold.

But, I'd imagine it depends on the goal of the alchemist. We work with different matters to experience different states and different effects.

JDP
09-20-2015, 04:30 AM
This is something I've long wondered. Many texts mention that either a White or Red Stone can be made, depending on whether Sol or Luna is used. I know that the White Stone is supposed to transmute metals into Silver, and that the Red Stone is supposed to transmute metals into Gold, but other than that, what difference is there in the medical or other use of each of these two Stones? I have not seen one treatise specifically mention the use of the White Stone. If both have the same medical or longevity attribute, other than for the greedy purpose of making Gold, why even bother making the far more expensive Red Stone at all?

The literature does distinguish between the power of both Stones, both for transmutation as well as for medicinal purposes. Regarding transmutation, the red Stone transmutes metals into gold in larger amounts than the white Stone has the power of changing metals into silver (but the transmuting power of both Stones depends apparently on certain factors of their preparation which are not always clearly explained, some samples of them only transmuting a few times their own weight while other samples transmute a lot of times their own weight.) Regarding medicinal uses, the white Stone is less potent, and some authors claim it's more beneficial for women's health issues, while the red Stone is more potent, and according to some authors also more suitable for men's health issues.

Also, the literature does not agree at all whether gold and silver are really used for making the Stone. Some authors vehemently deny that they are used at all, calling those who employ actual gold and silver "fools", "sophists", "puffers" and other such names for not having understood that what alchemists call "gold" or "Sol" and "silver" or "Luna" are actually something else that are prepared during the operations; others say that real gold and silver are only used for "fermenting" the Stone for transmutation (fermenting with silver for the white Stone, fermenting with gold for the red Stone), but they are not employed if you want to use the Stone for medicinal purposes (so, in other words, gold and silver are not employed until AFTER the Stone itself has been prepared, and only if you want to use it for transmutation); while yet others claim that real, actual, bona fide metallic gold and silver are indeed used in making the Stone, period, no ifs or buts. Obviously someone has to be wrong here, so until you actually manage to succeed in making it, who knows who is right or wrong!

Illen A. Cluf
09-20-2015, 01:16 PM
That's just it, they aren't exactly the same. My last post was about the two androgynous powders. They aren't the same, though similar. They are still oppisames that can be united.
The difference between them as stand-alone substances, are similar to the differences between gold and silver themselves. Both are valuable. Both are healing. It's a thing of polarities and energies.

~Seth-Ra

But I have read hundreds of treatises and have never come across any that suggest mixing the two resultant powders. Are you aware of any specific document which suggests this?

Illen A. Cluf
09-20-2015, 01:28 PM
I don't see Gold and Mercury creating an androgynous stone. I see it as having made a diluted and enlivened Gold.

But, I'd imagine it depends on the goal of the alchemist. We work with different matters to experience different states and different effects.

There are many treatises that suggest that actual gold or silver is used as 'ferments" in the creation of the Stone, and suggest that actual gold is used to create the red powder, and actual silver is used to create the white powder. However, other treatises suggest that actual gold or silver are not used, and that "gold" and "silver" are words used to refer to something else. Others take these statements to mean that, although these authors say that actual gold and silver are not used, what they really mean is that only the inner "tincture" from actual gold or silver is used, not the metallic substance itself. So actual gold and silver do not form part of the Stone, but rather their tincture. As for the Mercury, it seems almost unanimous that, in this case, "Mercury" does not mean common Mercury (although there are some treatises that suggest that common Mercury actually IS used). The "Mercury" generally seems to refer to at least two different states of the matter as it is processed. Many seem to imply that the first state is when a regulus is completed, as in the regulus of antimony (made using iron and stibnite). The second usage of the word "Mercury" seems to be when this regulus is mixed with the clear, shiny water, often just called "our water", menstruum, Secret Fire, or dozens of other descriptive words.

Illen A. Cluf
09-20-2015, 01:32 PM
The literature does distinguish between the power of both Stones, both for transmutation as well as for medicinal purposes. Regarding transmutation, the red Stone transmutes metals into gold in larger amounts than the white Stone has the power of changing metals into silver (but the transmuting power of both Stones depends apparently on certain factors of their preparation which are not always clearly explained, some samples of them only transmuting a few times their own weight while other samples transmute a lot of times their own weight.) Regarding medicinal uses, the white Stone is less potent, and some authors claim it's more beneficial for women's health issues, while the red Stone is more potent, and according to some authors also more suitable for men's health issues.

Also, the literature does not agree at all whether gold and silver are really used for making the Stone. Some authors vehemently deny that they are used at all, calling those who employ actual gold and silver "fools", "sophists", "puffers" and other such names for not having understood that what alchemists call "gold" or "Sol" and "silver" or "Luna" are actually something else that are prepared during the operations; others say that real gold and silver are only used for "fermenting" the Stone for transmutation (fermenting with silver for the white Stone, fermenting with gold for the red Stone), but they are not employed if you want to use the Stone for medicinal purposes (so, in other words, gold and silver are not employed until AFTER the Stone itself has been prepared, and only if you want to use it for transmutation); while yet others claim that real, actual, bona fide metallic gold and silver are indeed used in making the Stone, period, no ifs or buts. Obviously someone has to be wrong here, so until you actually manage to succeed in making it, who knows who is right or wrong!

Thanks, JDP! That's the type of answer I was looking for. Do you have any sources for your information about the practical differences between the white and red stones? For example, I had never come across the claim that the white stone is more beneficial for women's health issues, although that would seem to make sense, based on the philosophies as expressed by the adepts.

Hellin Hermetist
09-20-2015, 04:31 PM
Batsdorff, Fillet de Artiande.

Illen A. Cluf
09-20-2015, 04:40 PM
Batsdorff, Fillet de Artiande.

Thanks, Hellin. I searched for a copy of the treatise (in French) and will have to brush up on my French. This has likely never been translated in English.

Is this the reference?:

"L'Elixir blanc fait merveilles aux maladies de tous les animaux, et particulièrement à celle des femmes avec lequel elles ont le plus de sympathie, ainsi que dit un savant.."

Michael Sternbach
09-20-2015, 10:52 PM
Isn't there a concept that the albedo leads to the White Stone, which further evolves into the Red Stone during the rubedo? I seem to remember having read that somewhere.

Illen A. Cluf
09-21-2015, 12:26 AM
Isn't there a concept that the albedo leads to the White Stone, which further evolves into the Red Stone during the rubedo? I seem to remember having read that somewhere.

There is a stage following the blackness (crow's head) where the matter becomes white (end of second rotation). With much more time and heat, at the end of the third rotation, it eventually becomes red. However, the white stage is not yet the completed stone.

Michael Sternbach
09-21-2015, 07:18 AM
There is a stage following the blackness (crow's head) where the matter becomes white (end of second rotation). With much more time and heat, at the end of the third rotation, it eventually becomes red. However, the white stage is not yet the completed stone.

Thanks, but I knew that already. I thought that some authors identified the result of the white stage with the White Stone. However, I have no references for that at hand, and I might be mistaken.

JDP
09-21-2015, 08:29 AM
Thanks, JDP! That's the type of answer I was looking for. Do you have any sources for your information about the practical differences between the white and red stones? For example, I had never come across the claim that the white stone is more beneficial for women's health issues, although that would seem to make sense, based on the philosophies as expressed by the adepts.

Besides the Batsdorff reference, Sancelrien Tourangeau in his "Key of the Great Work" also makes such a claim. In fact, he goes further and says that the white elixir has such effects on older women that it renews their bodies and makes them seem like they are no more than 19 years old. Needles to say Tourangeau was a very exaggerated writer, a lot of what he claims can't possibly be taken seriously.

Hellin Hermetist
09-21-2015, 08:50 AM
Thanks, Hellin. I searched for a copy of the treatise (in French) and will have to brush up on my French. This has likely never been translated in English.

Is this the reference?:

"L'Elixir blanc fait merveilles aux maladies de tous les animaux, et particulièrement à celle des femmes avec lequel elles ont le plus de sympathie, ainsi que dit un savant.."

You are right there is no English translation. Ok I shall translate few paragraphs for you:

"The White Elixir does wonders to the diseases of creatures of the animal kingdom, and especially to those of women, with whom it has a certain sympathy. if they take it dissolved in any liquor appropriate for that disease. And if somebody wants to use it to protect himself from some foul air, he has to take it in an empty stomach dissolved in the spirit of wine, as we will describe with more details later, and it will give him an unparalleled power to protect himself from any type of foul air, even from one polluted by the plague. In this way it will protect him from any kind of disease, as this liquer is the true Luna potable of the ancients, about which they have written so many incredible and supernatural things.
Among other things, if a woman wants to get young again, and make her body as beautiful and vigorous as it was at her younger years, she has to put herself three times in a bath with orodiferous herbs. in which she will cleanse her body, and after that she will wipe away the excessive wateriness. Then, she will put herself in another bath, in which iit shall have put three grains of the white elixir dissolved in a pint of spirit of wine six timew rectified, and after she have been stayed only for a quartere of an hour in this bath, she will get away without wipe away the excessive humidity from her body. Then she has to stay for some time in front of a storng fire, the heat of which will dry this precious water which shall be all over her body, and in that way, her body will becoma vigorous, beatiful and of an extraordinary whiteness.
This White Elixir dissolved in a pint of spirit of wine five or six times rectified, in the quantity which the spirit of wine is able to dissolve, is the true oil of talc of the ancients, which they have hidden all the times, and about which they have mentioned many wonderful things, especially as regards the treatment of the human face, in which you have to put one or two drops of that liquer, which will extend by itself all over the face, and it will give it a whiteness so bright that will surprise you".

The author mentions after that some more uses of the White Elixir and of the oil of talc. But as JDP mentioned, the most interesting part is to declare if the white and red stones have as their basis common gold and silver as mention Basil Valentine, Vallois and his companions and some other authors, or if its made from some mineral with low value as mentions Urbigerus, Limojon and some others.

Illen A. Cluf
09-21-2015, 04:56 PM
Besides the Batsdorff reference, Sancelrien Tourangeau in his "Key of the Great Work" also makes such a claim. In fact, he goes further and says that the white elixir has such effects on older women that it renews their bodies and makes them seem like they are no more than 19 years old. Needles to say Tourangeau was a very exaggerated writer, a lot of what he claims can't possibly be taken seriously.

Thanks, JDP. It's odd how rare this type of information seems to be. All we read about are transmutations and sometimes longevity, but rarely about the more specific medicinal benefits. It's unfortunate that more of the French texts haven't been translated into English.

Illen A. Cluf
09-21-2015, 05:03 PM
You are right there is no English translation. Ok I shall translate few paragraphs for you:

"The White Elixir does wonders to the diseases of creatures of the animal kingdom, and especially to those of women, with whom it has a certain sympathy. if they take it dissolved in any liquor appropriate for that disease. And if somebody wants to use it to protect himself from some foul air, he has to take it in an empty stomach dissolved in the spirit of wine, as we will describe with more details later, and it will give him an unparalleled power to protect himself from any type of foul air, even from one polluted by the plague. In this way it will protect him from any kind of disease, as this liquer is the true Luna potable of the ancients, about which they have written so many incredible and supernatural things.
Among other things, if a woman wants to get young again, and make her body as beautiful and vigorous as it was at her younger years, she has to put herself three times in a bath with orodiferous herbs. in which she will cleanse her body, and after that she will wipe away the excessive wateriness. Then, she will put herself in another bath, in which iit shall have put three grains of the white elixir dissolved in a pint of spirit of wine six timew rectified, and after she have been stayed only for a quartere of an hour in this bath, she will get away without wipe away the excessive humidity from her body. Then she has to stay for some time in front of a storng fire, the heat of which will dry this precious water which shall be all over her body, and in that way, her body will becoma vigorous, beatiful and of an extraordinary whiteness.
This White Elixir dissolved in a pint of spirit of wine five or six times rectified, in the quantity which the spirit of wine is able to dissolve, is the true oil of talc of the ancients, which they have hidden all the times, and about which they have mentioned many wonderful things, especially as regards the treatment of the human face, in which you have to put one or two drops of that liquer, which will extend by itself all over the face, and it will give it a whiteness so bright that will surprise you".

The author mentions after that some more uses of the White Elixir and of the oil of talc. But as JDP mentioned, the most interesting part is to declare if the white and red stones have as their basis common gold and silver as mention Basil Valentine, Vallois and his companions and some other authors, or if its made from some mineral with low value as mentions Urbigerus, Limojon and some others.

You're very kind to translate those paragraphs - it's very much appreciated! I'm really quite surprised to see this type of valuable information, as this is the first time I have come across it. I find it very odd that such an important treatise has never been translated from English, because finding specific details about the medicinal and health-related benefits of the Stone is severely lacking in most treatises. There seems to be an undo focus on the transmutation effects, and so little about non-material benefits such as health benefits. The distinction between the benefits of the white stone as opposed to the red stone is also quite fascinating and instructional.

I do agree that it would be valuable to determine whether or not actual gold and silver are used in the process. There are some treatises which insist that they are, while others suggest that they are not. I have also seen treatises that say that gold and silver are the "best" sources, while other matters will also work, but not so effectively. So maybe both are right.

thoth
09-21-2015, 09:03 PM
You might be interested in "A Compendium of alchemical Processes" published by Kessinger, which comprises extracts from Glauber, Valentine & others.
Of the various processes some describe the Stone, while others refer to different stones such as vegetable ones

for example :
"The preparation of the volatile spirits of metals (Glauuber part 2, P 162b)" - ...provokes a sweat, opens obstructions of the liver, spleeen & lungs and comforts the stomach


"The preparation of the so-called Alkahest" - ....an excellent medicine, and is used in the same manner as is the primum ens melissae

" A vegtable elixer" - a few drops will change the juice of the human body, revive the flame of life, and restore spirits of waning youth

"Medicine of antimony" - four grains of this oil taken with St Benedicts corial, cures quotidian, tertian, and quartan fevers, .. also effective against the plague, when taken with vinegar

he also mentions various extractions of antimony, which can cure leprosy, or the French disease, purifies the blood, dispels melancoly, removes asthma etc..

Illen A. Cluf
09-21-2015, 09:43 PM
You might be interested in "A Compendium of alchemical Processes" published by Kessinger, which comprises extracts from Glauber, Valentine & others.
Of the various processes some describe the Stone, while others refer to different stones such as vegetable ones

for example :
"The preparation of the volatile spirits of metals (Glauuber part 2, P 162b)" - ...provokes a sweat, opens obstructions of the liver, spleeen & lungs and comforts the stomach


"The preparation of the so-called Alkahest" - ....an excellent medicine, and is used in the same manner as is the primum ens melissae

" A vegtable elixer" - a few drops will change the juice of the human body, revive the flame of life, and restore spirits of waning youth

"Medicine of antimony" - four grains of this oil taken with St Benedicts corial, cures quotidian, tertian, and quartan fevers, .. also effective against the plague, when taken with vinegar

he also mentions various extractions of antimony, which can cure leprosy, or the French disease, purifies the blood, dispels melancoly, removes asthma etc..

Thanks, thoth - these references are very helpful. It would be interesting to make a compendium of these type of sources.

JDP
09-21-2015, 10:07 PM
You might be interested in "A Compendium of alchemical Processes" published by Kessinger, which comprises extracts from Glauber, Valentine & others.
Of the various processes some describe the Stone, while others refer to different stones such as vegetable ones

for example :
"The preparation of the volatile spirits of metals (Glauuber part 2, P 162b)" - ...provokes a sweat, opens obstructions of the liver, spleeen & lungs and comforts the stomach


"The preparation of the so-called Alkahest" - ....an excellent medicine, and is used in the same manner as is the primum ens melissae

" A vegtable elixer" - a few drops will change the juice of the human body, revive the flame of life, and restore spirits of waning youth

"Medicine of antimony" - four grains of this oil taken with St Benedicts corial, cures quotidian, tertian, and quartan fevers, .. also effective against the plague, when taken with vinegar

he also mentions various extractions of antimony, which can cure leprosy, or the French disease, purifies the blood, dispels melancoly, removes asthma etc..

These are specific substances with specific medicinal claims attached to them by Glauber, who seems to never have claimed to have actually made the Philosophers' Stone. So these are "spagyrical" medicines, not really alchemical.

Ghislain
09-22-2015, 12:06 PM
I have read that the white stone has the same properties of the red stone, however the effects of the white stone are not permanent.

It stated that one should beware of taking the red without first trying out the white as one may not like what they find.

I wish I could remember where I read this.

I have a good idea what the implications of this may be, but that is just my opinion.

Ghislain

Illen A. Cluf
09-22-2015, 01:03 PM
I have read that the white stone has the same properties of the red stone, however the effects of the white stone are not permanent.

It stated that one should beware of taking the red without first trying out the white as one may not like what they find.

I wish I could remember where I read this.

I have a good idea what the implications of this may be, but that is just my opinion.

Ghislain

Thanks Ghislain! I would be interested in the source, if you happen to find it.

Illen A. Cluf
09-28-2015, 02:07 AM
Thanks, but I knew that already. I thought that some authors identified the result of the white stage with the White Stone. However, I have no references for that at hand, and I might be mistaken.

Actually, that is correct, although this is not the same as the "White Stone" at the end of the process. Some authors did refer to the product at the white stage, before Gold or Silver were joined with it, as the "Hermetic White Stone". This was also known as "White Mercury", "White Magnesia", "Foliated Earth", "Hermetic White Stone", the "One", "Serpent of Two Compositions", "Mercurius Duplicatus", "Algarot Powder", and many other names. This was supposedly a dry white powder, likely an oxychloride.

crestind
09-29-2015, 02:30 AM
There seem to be a variety of ways as pointed out.

One way is taking an undifferentiated mercury and reacting it with luna or sol to get each, but while this might be good for a tinging one, it doesn't seem right.

The other path which imo is the correct one, is a single substance, which splits into white and red, and is then recombined to go through the color changes all on its own without luna or sol. This is the method where there is the least amount of information available.

Illen A. Cluf
09-29-2015, 03:04 AM
The other path which imo is the correct one, is a single substance, which splits into white and red, and is then recombined to go through the color changes all on its own without luna or sol. This is the method where there is the least amount of information available.

Fascinating! It has a certain simplicity to it which is attractive. Which treatise(s) apply this method? (Please send me a private message if you would rather it not be too public).

Salazius
09-30-2015, 10:16 AM
There is two cases.

White Stone and Red Stone made out of a "single substance", understand this philosophically speaking, giving in the order colours, or planetary regimens of fire : First is the regimen of Mercury, few speak about it and is the very first colour of the compound, sometime yellow, sometime green and blue, whatever, then comes Black and Saturn, peacock tail and venus, green and venus too (I tend to make a distinction between the two because, it is not really the same thing), then grey and jupiter, then WHITE and Luna, which is the White Stone, or Albedo stage, follows citrinitas or yellow - not linked to a plant seemingly-, then red to Mars, or Rubedo, and Purple to the Sun. Which is the red stone in its ful glory.

The second case : You take the same Secret Fire and two different ferments or Sulfurs. In one case, "silver" and in the other, "gold", here, it is more the signature than the possible metal that is important, let's be philosophers instead of sophists. Then you cook, and every coction is a multiplication by itself. Then, you enhance the potency of the Sulfur used.

So, what makes Silver at first, and Gold, will be enhanced in their powers.

Ever heard about the two majors initiations, given by the moon first, and then the Sun ? Baptism and Unction. These are the roles or these Stones. Washing first, and then transmuting and protecting from "oxydation".

Illen A. Cluf
09-30-2015, 02:31 PM
There is two cases.

White Stone and Red Stone made out of a "single substance", understand this philosophically speaking, giving in the order colours, or planetary regimens of fire : First is the regimen of Mercury, few speak about it and is the very first colour of the compound, sometime yellow, sometime green and blue, whatever, then comes Black and Saturn, peacock tail and venus, green and venus too (I tend to make a distinction between the two because, it is not really the same thing), then grey and jupiter, then WHITE and Luna, which is the White Stone, or Albedo stage, follows citrinitas or yellow - not linked to a plant seemingly-, then red to Mars, or Rubedo, and Purple to the Sun. Which is the red stone in its ful glory.

The second case : You take the same Secret Fire and two different ferments or Sulfurs. In one case, "silver" and in the other, "gold", here, it is more the signature than the possible metal that is important, let's be philosophers instead of sophists. Then you cook, and every coction is a multiplication by itself. Then, you enhance the potency of the Sulfur used.

So, what makes Silver at first, and Gold, will be enhanced in their powers.

Ever heard about the two majors initiations, given by the moon first, and then the Sun ? Baptism and Unction. These are the roles or these Stones. Washing first, and then transmuting and protecting from "oxydation".

Salazius, thanks for nicely summarizing the two perspectives that we have been discussing. One involves the regimen of colours during the process, while the other involves the two products, one traditionally involving purified gold, and the other purified silver.

However Crestind mentioned another rare path involving a single substance, splitting into a red and white product, which are then recombined, without the use of any other substance, including gold or silver. Perhaps an acetate path?

Michael Sternbach
09-30-2015, 08:27 PM
I vaguely recall a certain Alchemist writing that the White Stone is not all that hard to gain, but that it's very rare that somebody can produce the Red Stone thereof.

JDP
09-30-2015, 09:56 PM
Salazius, thanks for nicely summarizing the two perspectives that we have been discussing. One involves the regimen of colours during the process, while the other involves the two products, one traditionally involving purified gold, and the other purified silver.

However Crestind mentioned another rare path involving a single substance, splitting into a red and white product, which are then recombined, without the use of any other substance, including gold or silver. Perhaps an acetate path?

The whole idea that the Stone can be made from a "single substance" is nothing but a trap if taken too literally. There is no single simple substance in nature that can do all the things the alchemists describe. What some authors maliciously call "one matter" (often called "Magnesia" in the older Greek and Arabic literature) is really the COMPOUNDED matter AFTER it has been made out of the several possible starting substances. Countless seekers throughout the centuries have fallen for this trap and have submitted virtually all naturally occurring substances found in the mineral, animal and vegetable kingdoms individually to destructive distillation to see if they could obtain the results that the alchemists describe, but of course no one found anything but failure by trying this approach. Contrary to what some writers pretend, nature does NOT make this "only one matter", the alchemist does by combining several initial matters into "one" (in appearance), which is then given a multitude of strange or misleading names ("Chaos", "Molybdochalkos", "Magnesia", "Adrop", "Gum", "Gum Adrop", "Vitriol", "Azoquean Vitriol", "Red Lead", "Antimony", "Sericon", etc.) This is the most deliberately obscure and hidden part of the whole of alchemy, because all of it depends on this. Even most of the best authors only speak vaguely or rather confusingly about it. Only a few have written a bit more clearly and sincerely about this crucial initial stage.

JDP
09-30-2015, 10:18 PM
I vaguely recall a certain Alchemist writing that the White Stone is not all that hard to gain, but that it's very rare that somebody can produce the Red Stone thereof.

You are probably thinking of Thomas Norton in his "Ordinal" (see chapter V.) This is, of course, an exaggeration on his part. The white Stone is no more or less difficult to figure out how to make than the red one since the basic starting materials are the same. If you figure out how to make the white one, then you will sooner or later figure out how to make the other one too. It's only a matter of time and patience. A bit of trial and error until you hit the nail on the head.

Norton, by the way, says that at the time he wrote the "Ordinal" he had not yet made the red Stone because one of his servant-assistants stole the white Stone from him. So obviously he is implying that you need to first have the white Stone in order to make the red one.

Illen A. Cluf
10-02-2015, 01:39 PM
The whole idea that the Stone can be made from a "single substance" is nothing but a trap if taken too literally. There is no single simple substance in nature that can do all the things the alchemists describe. What some authors maliciously call "one matter" (often called "Magnesia" in the older Greek and Arabic literature) is really the COMPOUNDED matter AFTER it has been made out of the several possible starting substances. Countless seekers throughout the centuries have fallen for this trap and have submitted virtually all naturally occurring substances found in the mineral, animal and vegetable kingdoms individually to destructive distillation to see if they could obtain the results that the alchemists describe, but of course no one found anything but failure by trying this approach. Contrary to what some writers pretend, nature does NOT make this "only one matter", the alchemist does by combining several initial matters into "one" (in appearance), which is then given a multitude of strange or misleading names ("Chaos", "Molybdochalkos", "Magnesia", "Adrop", "Gum", "Gum Adrop", "Vitriol", "Azoquean Vitriol", "Red Lead", "Antimony", "Sericon", etc.) This is the most deliberately obscure and hidden part of the whole of alchemy, because all of it depends on this. Even most of the best authors only speak vaguely or rather confusingly about it. Only a few have written a bit more clearly and sincerely about this crucial initial stage.

Thanks, JDP. Your interpretation must be right since nobody else seems able to either substantiate their claims or provide any reference whatsoever.

Arrakis
10-04-2015, 02:23 AM
Hello,
I don't think that the red stone is so hard to obtain in comparison with the white one. The main difficulty are the multiplications after it.

Arrakis
10-04-2015, 02:42 AM
Ever heard about the two majors initiations, given by the moon first, and then the Sun ? Baptism and Unction. These are the roles or these Stones. Washing first, and then transmuting and protecting from "oxydation".

Yes, but isn't red sulphur itself an oxidation? Unless you get sulphur solely from sunlight, depending on the way.

Salazius
10-04-2015, 12:10 PM
Arrakis,

I was speaking about the oxydation of the bodies after the ingestion.
And there is no difficulties in the multiplication, whatsoever.

crestind
10-07-2015, 04:47 AM
Fascinating! It has a certain simplicity to it which is attractive. Which treatise(s) apply this method? (Please send me a private message if you would rather it not be too public).
Can't recall any in particular except for several mentions on Levity.com but they usually talk about a white queen or red king or something and then they are said to fuse and turn into some two headed thing once they sleep or die together, something like that. Problem is they never tell you how to get the white and red in the first place.


Salazius, thanks for nicely summarizing the two perspectives that we have been discussing. One involves the regimen of colours during the process, while the other involves the two products, one traditionally involving purified gold, and the other purified silver.

However Crestind mentioned another rare path involving a single substance, splitting into a red and white product, which are then recombined, without the use of any other substance, including gold or silver. Perhaps an acetate path?
I think Salazius might be describing the same process in the first paragraph, but I'm not sure. Basically from one substance, we split, and recombine. One of the antimony paths in POTPOURRI describes this, iirc it has you deliquesce butter of ant, then slowly distill it to get some stuff, then repeat and collect the distillate and digest, which turns into something that looks like an open sore. We distill this to get a white clear material and a red oil, which are then combined and digested to stone. Antimony is nasty stuff though I'm not gonna touch it anymore. Tired of these pleb paths that yield nothing more than possible heavy metal poisoning. I want something pure and clean.

JDP
10-07-2015, 07:15 AM
I think Salazius might be describing the same process in the first paragraph, but I'm not sure. Basically from one substance, we split, and recombine. One of the antimony paths in POTPOURRI describes this, iirc it has you deliquesce butter of ant, then slowly distill it to get some stuff, then repeat and collect the distillate and digest, which turns into something that looks like an open sore. We distill this to get a white clear material and a red oil, which are then combined and digested to stone.

As you can see, even if such a "path" was real, then it is not really by working with only "one matter". There is no way of making antimony butter with "only one matter". You need at the very least two separate substances and make them react to obtain it (and one of these substances, the one that provides the chlorine, is itself made up by combining several other substances.) There is no such "only one matter" path. It is simply impossible. There is no single simple natural substance that can do all the things the alchemists describe. The basic matter of the Stone is not made by nature, it is composed by the alchemist himself out of several substances. The "only one matter" adage is a booby trap for all those who take such mystifying utterances too literally.


Antimony is nasty stuff though I'm not gonna touch it anymore.

Antimony is not that dangerous, and bismuth even less. Arsenic and phosphorus are much more toxic and require a bit more caution when experimenting with them.


Tired of these pleb paths that yield nothing more than possible heavy metal poisoning. I want something pure and clean.

Unfortunately, there very likely isn't any. Since the days of Alexandrian and Byzantine alchemy we can see references to the potentially toxic/poisonous effects of some substances employed in the composition of the Stone.

Ghislain
10-07-2015, 09:57 AM
JDP perhaps the use of those substances are to gain access to the one matter.

Ghislain

JDP
10-07-2015, 10:51 AM
JDP perhaps the use of those substances are to gain access to the one matter.

Ghislain

Even if that was the case, it would still not be "only one matter". You would still have to manipulate those other substances to get to the "one matter". So the point is that if you take this "one matter" claim as it is presented by many writers, in the sense that you must only handle one matter from the very start, you will never achieve anything because there simply is no such single matter found in nature that will perform what the alchemists describe. So the way many present this "one matter" assertion is a malicious trap.

Hellin Hermetist
10-07-2015, 12:22 PM
We have to create the first matter of the Stone first and in the second stage digest that matter alone in the athanor. Valois and his companions have described some parts of the process in great detail, but as he says that his agents are common gold reduced to a powder and spirit of niter, the whole work seems impossible. Maybe we can make a spirit of niter capable to dissolve gold, if we volatilize the capuut mortuum which stays back after the distillation of the spirit (Kirchweger has given some instructions at his Golden Chain), or calcinate gold in such a way that it shall be able to be dissolved by nitric acid (Some authors have described a calcination of gold using fire alone which produce a salt of gold which can be dissolved even in common water).

The pure substance (usually gold) contains the fire of Nature and the dissolving agent contains fire against Nature (the authors have mentioned many agents like spirit of niter, aqua regia, corrosive sublimate, etc). We need to combine both of those fires in one substance, and let them fight one against the other in th bossom of that one substance, and thats the stage which the authors call putrefaction and divides the pure from the impure part.

Illen A. Cluf
10-07-2015, 04:35 PM
I think Salazius might be describing the same process in the first paragraph, but I'm not sure. Basically from one substance, we split, and recombine. One of the antimony paths in POTPOURRI describes this, iirc it has you deliquesce butter of ant, then slowly distill it to get some stuff, then repeat and collect the distillate and digest, which turns into something that looks like an open sore. We distill this to get a white clear material and a red oil, which are then combined and digested to stone. Antimony is nasty stuff though I'm not gonna touch it anymore. Tired of these pleb paths that yield nothing more than possible heavy metal poisoning. I want something pure and clean.

I think the confusion lies in the tradition that many treatises deceptively START with the "prepared substance" (flowers of antimony, butter of antimony, or whatever) and treat THAT as the "one only thing". Very few treatises explain the initial preparation of the matter, which involved more than "one thing", often antimony, iron filings, fluxes and the secret fire (which consisted of various substances, depending on the process, such as ammonium chloride, sea salt, urine, etc., all of which contained the key - chlorine atoms). The initial preparation and the "secret fire" was almost always hidden to confuse the "unworthy". Even after the preparation of the "one thing", often yet another "thing" was added as a "ferment" - such as refined (vulgar) gold or silver calx.

Arrakis
10-08-2015, 04:04 AM
We are talking about different ways obviously, some have trully one matter, whilst others, such as the butter of antimony, have several matters into the equation. But that might depend on the concept given as all those varieties, including high temp., corrosives, etc. are only a previous phase of the GW and the preparation of a single matter.

JDP
10-08-2015, 08:29 AM
We are talking about different ways obviously, some have trully one matter,

Once again, anyone with practical experience will have no second thoughts about strongly doubting the claim that there can possibly be a "truly one matter" way to make the Stone. In order for it to truly be "only one matter" there must be NO previous purposeful & man-induced mixture and reaction with anything else, so by force it has to be a single naturally-occurring substance. However, name even one that can actually perform all the things the alchemists describe.


whilst others, such as the butter of antimony, have several matters into the equation. But that might depend on the concept given as all those varieties, including high temp., corrosives, etc. are only a previous phase of the GW and the preparation of a single matter.

Another thing that anyone with lots of experience and acquaintance with the history of the subject must put into heavy doubt is the claim that there are a great multitude of ways working with many different matters, all leading to the same success. If this was true, then we should not expect such a high rate of total failure to achieve the desired results by such a great number of seekers for more than 2000 years, who put a huge number of substances and combinations thereof to the test (not to say anything here about the investigations of chemistry in the last 200+ years, which would very likely have also stumbled upon something that worked, even if only by accident.) Evidently the possible number of materials that do work and give positive results must be rather limited and not huge, otherwise we should logically expect a much higher rate of success among seekers after the Stone. But the limited amount of successes strongly argues against such a notion. The substances, and their combinations, that do work must be more restricted and limited, therefore much more difficult to discover, which explains the high rate of failures throughout history.

Ghislain
10-08-2015, 04:52 PM
nature does NOT make this "only one matter", the alchemist does by combining several initial matters into "one"


It's only a matter of time and patience.

Using Occam’s Razor, which states, “Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.”

What do we think we know...

http://thealchemyforum.com/Images/Matter

Everything is one matter.

Ghislain

archerner
10-08-2015, 06:56 PM
I've been wanting to jump in but Ghislain said it better then I could. :)

I'm sure there is a singular material from which the true stone is created, but I believe the process by which the stone is created is the true treasure.

JDP
10-08-2015, 08:40 PM
Using Occam’s Razor, which states, “Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.”

What do we think we know...

http://thealchemyforum.com/Images/Matter

Everything is one matter.

Ghislain

But these are the modern theories of physics and chemistry, and yet they keep on insisting that transmutation through what they call "chemical reactions" is impossible (they do not make any distinctions between any reactions, unlike the alchemists and transmutational chymists, who separated a "vulgar/common/ordinary chymistry" and its ineffective methods/operations to alter metals from theirs.) This brings us back to a topic that was already discussed elsewhere: the huge difference between theories/speculations and empirical facts. The first are designed to try to give an explanation for the second ones and keep on changing through the centuries as more empirical evidence comes to the surface, while the second do not change and always remain the same. Classic example: the gravity that Aristotle, Descartes and Newton observed and tried to explain is exactly the same empirical fact, yet look at how differently they sought to explain this fact. Future generations will continue to observe this exact same fact, and in their turn will attempt to "explain" it in a manner that satisfies their intellects.

The alchemists themselves had "everything is one matter" theories, adapted from those of ancient philosophers like Aristotle, but this did not stop them from realizing that transmuting one metal into another one is not an easy feat and that plenty of seekers kept on failing to achieve this. They had their own theories (like the difficulty of removing "accidental qualities" impressed on this fundamental "prime matter") to try to rationalize this empirical difficulty. So "all is one matter" theories do not really answer anything regarding this issue.

archerner
10-09-2015, 02:14 PM
I love how concatenated and winding threads are here. Never know what you're going to learn.

To answer the original question the red stone is more mature and the fructification of the white. More riddles ;)

Also the "one matter" question seems path dependent. The acetate path would have a different substance than the regulus of antimony. Amirite? It seems to me Ghislain is on to the root of the problem, even if people on here know and have this substance it'd be a great disservice to reveal it cut and dried. The essentials and elements within materials, whichever you may chose should be examined. The great work requires earth air fire and water to be indissolubly combined. Furthermore the stone is at the same time animal vegetal and mineral, perhaps this one matter truly is in everything and it's a matter of recognizing it, then to search it out through direct experience.

Illen A. Cluf
10-09-2015, 02:44 PM
To answer the original question the red stone is more mature and the fructification of the white. More riddles ;)



No, this wasn't the complete answer. The answer was that there were at least two different perspectives regarding the "white" and the "red" Stones. The first perspective concerns the colour changes while confecting the Stone - the "three revolutions". The key changes in colour of the matter, in order, are black, white and red. Some call these the black, white and red stones just to add to the overall confusion. The second perspective, the one I was really asking about, is the one regarding the RESULTANT Stones. One traditional approach is to mix pure vulgar gold filings with the alkahest, resulting in the "red Stone", while the other approach is to mix pure Silver filings with the same alkahest resulting in the "white Stone".

My original question concerned the differences in properties between the two resultant Stones. This was answered from sources that I had not been aware of. The discussion then continued into whether or not there was a "one matter" perspective to making the Stone. This in turn was addressed by the practical fact that most treatises begin their process with with a single matter that was already previously prepared. It was prepared with various substances, and only then became the "one matter" of the alchemists. From there the discussion deviated into a modern string theory of matter, which could not have been the intention of the past alchemists when they talked about their "one matter". Their "one matter" was supposed to represent their prepared matter or alkahest.

archerner
10-09-2015, 06:11 PM
Interesting, I'm still in the plant realm of work, but love to read and study the mineral world. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but it was my understanding that the red stone was achieved by digesting the white stone. From what you've said both stones can be achieved independently of each other? Further more is this one matter or alkehest the same as the philosophical Mercury required for the work?

Illen A. Cluf
10-09-2015, 06:57 PM
Interesting, I'm still in the plant realm of work, but love to read and study the mineral world. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but it was my understanding that the red stone was achieved by digesting the white stone. From what you've said both stones can be achieved independently of each other? Further more is this one matter or alkehest the same as the philosophical Mercury required for the work?

As mentioned, there are TWO separate perspectives involving the same general process. During the confection of the Stone (the goal being either a Red or a White Stone), the matter goes through various colour changes as it is digested - primarily, Black first, then White, then Red (although there could be brief appearances of other colours during these phases). These are often viewed as the three main stages (or "Revolutions") of the Work, and are sometimes called black, white or red Stones (although they only represent different phases of the same work). Some believe that the colours actually relate to the moisture content and degree of heat of the matter, just as greyish plant ash turns white when heated long enough. When either gold or silver (for example) is added during the latter stage of the work, when the matter has been cooled down and made into powder, the result is either a reddish powder (when gold is used) or a white powder (when Silver is used). These are the true Red or White Stones of the Philosophers, used for further projection (concentration).

archerner
10-09-2015, 08:41 PM
Thanks for elaborating. I love the frictionless open discussion here. Best of luck on your quest!

Arrakis
10-10-2015, 08:28 AM
There aren't so many matters to make the stone, but indeed quite a few can. Don't forget that all matters have the 3 principles and the 4 elements. So that is reason enough to work with any matter alchemically. But, obviously alchemists choose those that are richer in Sulphur and Mercury.

Hellin Hermetist
10-10-2015, 08:44 AM
Their "one matter" was supposed to represent their prepared matter or alkahest.


Alkahest has nothing to do with the Stone. Thats another of the sophistries of Fulcanelli. Paracelsus mentions that word as a pharmaceutical substance, and Helmont and after him Starkey as a special solvent which acts as the Circulatum Minus of Urbigerus or as a volatilized alkali.

Ghislain
10-10-2015, 10:22 AM
"Difference Between the White and Red Stones"

May be the same as the difference between the RED and the BLUE pill. ;)

Ghislain

Illen A. Cluf
10-10-2015, 12:16 PM
Alkahest has nothing to do with the Stone. Thats another of the sophistries of Fulcanelli. Paracelsus mentions that word as a pharmaceutical substance, and Helmont and after him Starkey as a special solvent which acts as the Circulatum Minus of Urbigerus or as a volatilized alkali.

Perhaps "Universal Solvent" would be a better term. It's the prepared matter in which gold or silver is dissolved.

Hellin Hermetist
10-10-2015, 01:26 PM
The term "universal solvent" is another sophistry and many of the old chemists have shown the absurdness of this word. If a solvent is able to dissolve all the substances in the world, how can it be kept inside a glass or earthern vessel, without dissolve the vessel and get out of it?

Illen A. Cluf
10-10-2015, 01:31 PM
The term "universal solvent" is another sophistry and many of the old chemists have shown the absurdness of this word. If a solvent is able to dissolve all the substances in the world, how can it be kept inside a glass or earthern vessel, without dissolve the vessel and get out of it?

The ancients loved to exaggerate and confuse. Obviously they didn't mean that it would dissolve everything. It applied to all or almost all of the metals, depending on the treatise. Maybe "sophic mercury" might be a more appropriate term.

JDP
10-11-2015, 12:16 PM
Alkahest has nothing to do with the Stone. Thats another of the sophistries of Fulcanelli. Paracelsus mentions that word as a pharmaceutical substance, and Helmont and after him Starkey as a special solvent which acts as the Circulatum Minus of Urbigerus or as a volatilized alkali.

It wasn't so much Fulcanelli who was responsible for this confusion but rather many writers from the 17th century who did not understand this claim and its origin very well. The whole confusion was started by Van Helmont, who, as you pointed out, took the name of a specific Paracelsian medicine for the liver and turned it into this mysterious solvent that could allegedly radically dissolve and alter all materials, while itself remained unchanged. For some strange reason many people after Helmont continued to further confuse this whole thing and started pretending that this was the secret solvent of the alchemists, even though Helmont never claimed he had made the Stone (he manipulated already made samples of it, which were donated to him by others, but he himself never had claimed to have made it.) Already in the 17th century Weidenfeld noticed the flagrant contradiction and made a nice debunking of it by pointing out that the alchemical solvent, far from remaining unaltered, in fact radically joins itself with the mineral/metallic matters it dissolves and thus generates wholly new substances (the so-called tinctures of alchemy) which are no longer capable of returning to their component parts (in other words, neither the solvent nor the matter dissolved can be recovered.) So the Helmontian "alkahest" really has nothing to do with "alchemy", properly. It's more of a "chymical" claim.