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nav2010
10-17-2015, 06:29 PM
By the look of the votes, this is a done deal already so lets get on with it.
The Prima Materia.

Like all the other Sages that walked before me I swear by almighty God that this is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
The Sages before me had previously sworn never to divulge the Prima Materia in which nature performs cold fusion, which is the only scientific explanation I can give for it. I, however having stumbled upon this good fortune, am not prepared to selfishly keep this information to myself and have chosen to reveal what all previous people have selfishly not revealed.
I hope that the information will be used to the good of mankind and brings health, happiness and salvation to those who need it, so help me God.

There is an air that the Sages tried to gather by the Moon and by the stars at night and in the morning dew. This air is an Oxygen bond that is created when the Ultraviolet light of the Sun and the stars shine on the atmosphere of the Earth. This is why the Sages called it the Hermaphrodite child of the Sun and Moon. In early days it was gathered by placing sheets pegged in each corner so that the dew was impregnated by the light of the Sun and the Moon and stars. This Oxygen is known as the Serpent and has an half life of 3 days when it in normal air and a very short half life of between 12 minutes and 3 hours when it is trapped in the dew of the sheets or water.
This is represented by in the book of Abraham the Jew by Saturn stood on a cloud with an hour glass on his head, for this Oxygen is bound by the constraints of time in which it can cut through the hardness of the noble metals.
The Mercurial waters in the drawing by Abraham show the serpents escaping through the hills as it is released by the water and on another drawing the Oxygen is blown by the north wind onto the tree and then into the roots of the tree where it appears in the garden as springs.
This Oxygen is known to us as Ozone.
Ozone only appears in nature high up in the atmosphere produced when Ultraviolet light shines on Oxygen, deep underground as a result of trioxides, sometimes it is chemically bonded into root systems such as Marigolds and certain trees and by lighting strikes on Earth during storms. It can be produced very easily with Electrolysis of normal water, or running fresh water by a strong UV bulb or in air using Plasma arks or coronal discharge.
There is however, an unlearned truth about this Oxygen bond, which I am going to tell you.
Take two pieces of stainless steel, you can cut them from an old knife or anything really, you just need about 2 square inch of thin stainless steel so you have two separate plates of one square inch each.
Take the two plates and make a sandwich of them, so they are 3mm apart, place two thin plastics strips that are 3mm square between them to hold them apart so you have a stainless steel sandwich held apart by the plastic strips. Place the strips at either end of the stainless steel so there is a void in the middle. You can use silicone sealant to glue the whole thing in place but only use small amounts of silicone. This is an anode and cathode of a device we will use to create and collect Ozone in water. Once the silicone has dried, get a glass beaker of approx 500ml in volume. With a blob of silicone in the middle of one of the plates, glue it to the inside of the beaker so that the plastic spacers are pointing towards the bottom of the beaker and so the whole thing is three quarters inside the beaker and a quarter of it would be in air should the beaker be full of water.
Fill the beaker with double distilled water or water from a very clean stream or river, do not use tap water. Take the 9v battery and the wires, which need to be about 8 inches long each. Place crocodile clips on either end of each wire so that you can connect the battery to the wires and the wires to each of the plates. They need to be small clips for to connect onto the plates so that you dont touch both plates with one clip and short circuit the plates. This whole apparatus will take you about an hour at most to construct. Fill the beaker with the specified water making sure that a quarter of your plates are out of the water. Connect the positive lead to the plate that faces the middle of the beaker and the negative to the plate that is nearest the glass. Dont let the crocodile clips touch the water; only let them touch each respective plate only.
This is the hardest part of the work done.
What happens is @ 1.23v Oxygen and Hydrogen separate into their respective elements and will leave the water as bubbles. @ 1.51v the same process takes place but this time O3 Oxygen molecules form on and around the Anode of the device. Let this happen for a while and keep producing O3 bonds for 5 minutes but if the water temp increases to 37C then stop. Take the water out but do not dismantle your device because you are going to need it in the next few days.
Place the O3 laced water in a tightly sealed glass container within seconds of creating it. If you use a jam jar or anything with a rubber seal, the O3 will attack the rubber within seconds and it will begin to leak. You will smell a very pungent Chlorine smell because of the leak so therefore it must be sealed with silicone rubber. When our process gets into the later stages there is nothing in this world that it will not attack apart from glass but its something you learn to live with.
Once sealed in a vessel, keep it at 37C and out of direct sunlight and you are going to see something that is just going to blow your mind. After a few hours white shining oil starts to appear in the water and after two days it starts to take over the vessel. The constant evaporation and distillation is none stop and the volume of water starts to reduce in the vessel as the white oil increases. After a number of days it will start to get really, really volatile and you will run out of water and you will be scratching your head where this water has gone because the white oil is nowhere near the original volume of water but feel the weight of the vessel and you will know. Go through your electrolysis process five minutes before you put more water in the vessel and give it half as much water as you did the first time, 250ml. Using a rubber glove and not your bare fingers to just feel the white oil, it does not wet the rubber glove and feels like you are poking something solid and the best description is that its like poking your own stomach, feeling heavy and lazy. In scientific terms I would not know how to describe what is happening, all I can say is that there seems to be cold fusion going on and a heavy element is being created while another is being destroyed. The crucified serpent in the book of Abraham the Jew is the explanation that the Sages gave.
It will not evaporate the whole of the 250ml that you provided and it stops. This is the end of this stage I think. A word of warning at this stage, the white oil is by now very dangerous and it will dissolve anything and I mean anything including your skin, do not touch it or smell it and keep it sealed. It will eat through any metal but the glass of the beaker seems not to be touched by it. When you give it something to eat, the evaporation and distilling starts all over again and the volatile state increases
again. This stuff at first tries to eat itself for a time then when its had enough of itself it wants to eat other things like metal and will do so until you feed it what it wants.
I made a few mistakes with it at first, I tried giving it metals like iron filings and lead filings thinking it would turn them to gold but it doesnt do anything.
There is no heat involved at all, it just dissolves absolutely anything then eats the vapour inside the beaker that came from the reaction. Its PH is neither acid nor alkaline. I was for a long time struggling to find something to do with it and then one day about six months ago I did something. I had on my left arm malignant melanoma. The cancer was in the early stages, two patches about half an inch in diameter each and in the black and bleeding stage of the disease. For some reason unbeknown to myself I decided that I was going to cure it with my stuff and silver, it just felt right to do so. I took a small amount of the white water and separated with a Stanley blade and let it eat silver filings till it would eat no more. It changed the consistency of the oil to a more buttery stuff and I was shitting myself with what I was about to do. I could either burn my arm off with it, in which case the cancer would be gone anyway, poison myself with it or die of cancer anyway so I thought fuck it and buttered it on my arm on one of the patches but very thin. The first two days were a nightmare, talk about itch, it was driving me potty, then on about the fifth day a black scab appeared which dropped off after a few more days, the other patch did the same on its own and now as God is my witness the cancer was gone in a week, there is just a different coloured skin where it was. I made the stupid mistake of showing someone who had seen my melanoma in previous weeks and I couldnt tell him what Id done but I got an evil and distasteful look from him.
It was at this stage that I knew what I had achieved with my white stuff. I havent got the money to carry on with the rest of my work because the Prima Materia needs to absorb Gold for the next stage and my Gold is poor being only 18crt.
There are two questions which need answering:
The first one is how the hell can you start off with 500ml of Ozone water in a sealed vessel at 37C and end up with a white spongy oil of 50ml that weighs the same as the whole of the water?
Secondly, how did the amalgam of it and silver kill my cancer?
I honestly do not know the answers but that is what happened.
The reason that many have failed in this is because they do not know about the half life of O3 in water, which in turn forms back into O2 within minutes of creating it in water. They never fully understood how UV creates it in the world we live in.
You now know the Prima Materia and that as they say, is that.
See you in another four years folks.

archerner
10-17-2015, 07:03 PM
Truly fascinating. Thank you for putting forward your work. I feel regeneration, longevity, and enlightenment are as much a birthright as the hair on your head. We've been deceived and forgotten our divine heritage. It's high time humanity saw the light, this world needs it now more than ever.

crestind
10-17-2015, 07:55 PM
Bravo! Thank you for sharing your findings. I think there is truth in what you say and this opens up many new avenues for study.

Just wondering when and how did you begin to form this conclusion? Mainly, what was the aha moment for you.

nav2010
10-17-2015, 08:00 PM
Truly fascinating. Thank you for putting forward your work. I feel regeneration, longevity, and enlightenment are as much a birthright as the hair on your head. We've been deceived and forgotten our divine heritage. It's high time humanity saw the light, this world needs it now more than ever.
Last week my wife and I watched a film called The Age Of Adaline. The film was about a woman that was involved in a accident and then struck by lightening. This led to her having a gene disorder that stopped her from aging. She felt lonely and constantly ran away from those who surrounded her so that she could remain anonymous to the world and they wouldn't discover her secret. I thought about it for days and came to the conclusion that I want to get old, I want to die before my children and have a fulfilled life like many before me. This technology doesn't need to be used selfishly, it doesn't need to be used in illgotten ways like the Sages used it, They are the ones who abused it, they are the ones that ran away just like Adaline did in the film. I think there are people in this world who already know about this and use it responsibly and I think that they know that soon it will become common knowledge and this film is a warning.


Bravo! Thank you for sharing your findings. I think there is truth in what you say and this opens up many new avenues for study.

Just wondering when and how did you begin to form this conclusion? Mainly, what was the aha moment for you.
As soon as I saw the oil on the water and the water dissapearing into knowhere, I knew that this was never going to be a normal experience. As for the cancer, i'm still shaking my head with disbelief. Its just magical and a feel humbled that nature showed me a way. I don't even know how I got to where I am, I had a lot of weird dreams and nightmares and i'd given up on it then decided to have one last go at it.

archerner
10-17-2015, 09:06 PM
I'll have to check that movie out, sounds good. I agree it shouldn't be used selfishly. This is my own opinion, but I can feel a change in the wind. Humanity is trapped in illusion, more so now with the advent of artificial intelligence and the dream of artificial immortality. Both good and evil will seek to use whatever technology is present, though ultimately I believe this is all a part of something greater. The Buddha said even the soul must be transcended. Even the most potent of physical substances is merely a symbol of greater things to come. For better or worse it is a divine gift, if anything it's obscurity has left us without recourse to the evils in this world and let them fester. For evil to flourish good men need only do nothing, it seems from here this is what the secrets of alchemy have lead to. Concrete, guns, chemistry, medicine, and so much more alchemy has given the world, yet the truly redeeming aspect has been held secret. We cannot go on without the divine. We will not make it. So I thank you again for what you've given to us.

Kiorionis
10-17-2015, 09:16 PM
Archemical water work? Interesting explanation of Ozone nav! The only other work I've seen with water is the Gur work, and some mentions by John French. But your work goes well with Backstrom's 'electrified flask' comment as well.

But you say it will eat through any metal.. but also that you haven't tried it with gold yet?
Could you clarify this?

Illen A. Cluf
10-17-2015, 09:47 PM
Thanks for sharing your discovery, nav2010! This certainly merits some experimentation. You mentioned that you could not afford gold for your further experiments. Have you thought of using pure Silver instead? The Alchemists always said that either gold OR Silver could be used.

JDP
10-17-2015, 09:57 PM
By the look of the votes, this is a done deal already so lets get on with it.
The Prima Materia.

Like all the other Sages that walked before me I swear by almighty God that this is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
The Sages before me had previously sworn never to divulge the Prima Materia in which nature performs cold fusion, which is the only scientific explanation I can give for it. I, however having stumbled upon this good fortune, am not prepared to selfishly keep this information to myself and have chosen to reveal what all previous people have selfishly not revealed.
I hope that the information will be used to the good of mankind and brings health, happiness and salvation to those who need it, so help me God.

There is an air that the Sages tried to gather by the Moon and by the stars at night and in the morning dew. This air is an Oxygen bond that is created when the Ultraviolet light of the Sun and the stars shine on the atmosphere of the Earth. This is why the Sages called it the Hermaphrodite child of the Sun and Moon. In early days it was gathered by placing sheets pegged in each corner so that the dew was impregnated by the light of the Sun and the Moon and stars. This Oxygen is known as the Serpent and has an half life of 3 days when it in normal air and a very short half life of between 12 minutes and 3 hours when it is trapped in the dew of the sheets or water.
This is represented by in the book of Abraham the Jew by Saturn stood on a cloud with an hour glass on his head, for this Oxygen is bound by the constraints of time in which it can cut through the hardness of the noble metals.
The Mercurial waters in the drawing by Abraham show the serpents escaping through the hills as it is released by the water and on another drawing the Oxygen is blown by the north wind onto the tree and then into the roots of the tree where it appears in the garden as springs.
This Oxygen is known to us as Ozone.
Ozone only appears in nature high up in the atmosphere produced when Ultraviolet light shines on Oxygen, deep underground as a result of trioxides, sometimes it is chemically bonded into root systems such as Marigolds and certain tree’s and by lighting strikes on Earth during storms. It can be produced very easily with Electrolysis of normal water, or running fresh water by a strong UV bulb or in air using Plasma arks or coronal discharge.
There is however, an unlearned truth about this Oxygen bond, which I am going to tell you.
Take two pieces of stainless steel, you can cut them from an old knife or anything really, you just need about 2 square inch of thin stainless steel so you have two separate plates of one square inch each.
Take the two plates and make a sandwich of them, so they are 3mm apart, place two thin plastics strips that are 3mm square between them to hold them apart so you have a stainless steel sandwich held apart by the plastic strips. Place the strips at either end of the stainless steel so there is a void in the middle. You can use silicone sealant to glue the whole thing in place but only use small amounts of silicone. This is an anode and cathode of a device we will use to create and collect Ozone in water. Once the silicone has dried, get a glass beaker of approx 500ml in volume. With a blob of silicone in the middle of one of the plates, glue it to the inside of the beaker so that the plastic spacers are pointing towards the bottom of the beaker and so the whole thing is three quarters inside the beaker and a quarter of it would be in air should the beaker be full of water.
Fill the beaker with double distilled water or water from a very clean stream or river, do not use tap water. Take the 9v battery and the wires, which need to be about 8 inches long each. Place crocodile clips on either end of each wire so that you can connect the battery to the wires and the wires to each of the plates. They need to be small clips for to connect onto the plates so that you don’t touch both plates with one clip and short circuit the plates. This whole apparatus will take you about an hour at most to construct. Fill the beaker with the specified water making sure that a quarter of your plates are out of the water. Connect the positive lead to the plate that faces the middle of the beaker and the negative to the plate that is nearest the glass. Don’t let the crocodile clips touch the water; only let them touch each respective plate only.
This is the hardest part of the work done.
What happens is @ 1.23v Oxygen and Hydrogen separate into their respective elements and will leave the water as bubbles. @ 1.51v the same process takes place but this time O3 Oxygen molecules form on and around the Anode of the device. Let this happen for a while and keep producing O3 bonds for 5 minutes but if the water temp increases to 37C then stop. Take the water out but do not dismantle your device because you are going to need it in the next few days.
Place the O3 laced water in a tightly sealed glass container within seconds of creating it. If you use a jam jar or anything with a rubber seal, the O3 will attack the rubber within seconds and it will begin to leak. You will smell a very pungent Chlorine smell because of the leak so therefore it must be sealed with silicone rubber. When our process gets into the later stages there is nothing in this world that it will not attack apart from glass but it’s something you learn to live with.
Once sealed in a vessel, keep it at 37C and out of direct sunlight and you are going to see something that is just going to blow your mind. After a few hours white shining oil starts to appear in the water and after two days it starts to take over the vessel. The constant evaporation and distillation is none stop and the volume of water starts to reduce in the vessel as the white oil increases. After a number of days it will start to get really, really volatile and you will run out of water and you will be scratching your head where this water has gone because the white oil is nowhere near the original volume of water but feel the weight of the vessel and you will know. Go through your electrolysis process five minutes before you put more water in the vessel and give it half as much water as you did the first time, 250ml. Using a rubber glove and not your bare fingers to just feel the white oil, it does not wet the rubber glove and feels like you are poking something solid and the best description is that its like poking your own stomach, feeling heavy and lazy. In scientific terms I would not know how to describe what is happening, all I can say is that there seems to be cold fusion going on and a heavy element is being created while another is being destroyed. The crucified serpent in the book of Abraham the Jew is the explanation that the Sages gave.
It will not evaporate the whole of the 250ml that you provided and it stops. This is the end of this stage I think. A word of warning at this stage, the white oil is by now very dangerous and it will dissolve anything and I mean anything including your skin, do not touch it or smell it and keep it sealed. It will eat through any metal but the glass of the beaker seems not to be touched by it. When you give it something to eat, the evaporation and distilling starts all over again and the volatile state increases
again. This stuff at first tries to eat itself for a time then when it’s had enough of itself it wants to eat other things like metal and will do so until you feed it what it wants.
I made a few mistakes with it at first, I tried giving it metals like iron filings and lead filings thinking it would turn them to gold but it doesn’t do anything.
There is no heat involved at all, it just dissolves absolutely anything then eats the vapour inside the beaker that came from the reaction. Its PH is neither acid nor alkaline. I was for a long time struggling to find something to do with it and then one day about six months ago I did something. I had on my left arm malignant melanoma. The cancer was in the early stages, two patches about half an inch in diameter each and in the black and bleeding stage of the disease. For some reason unbeknown to myself I decided that I was going to cure it with my stuff and silver, it just felt right to do so. I took a small amount of the white water and separated with a Stanley blade and let it eat silver filings till it would eat no more. It changed the consistency of the oil to a more buttery stuff and I was shitting myself with what I was about to do. I could either burn my arm off with it, in which case the cancer would be gone anyway, poison myself with it or die of cancer anyway so I thought fuck it and buttered it on my arm on one of the patches but very thin. The first two days were a nightmare, talk about itch, it was driving me potty, then on about the fifth day a black scab appeared which dropped off after a few more days, the other patch did the same on its own and now as God is my witness the cancer was gone in a week, there is just a different coloured skin where it was. I made the stupid mistake of showing someone who had seen my melanoma in previous weeks and I couldn’t tell him what I’d done but I got an evil and distasteful look from him.
It was at this stage that I knew what I had achieved with my white stuff. I haven’t got the money to carry on with the rest of my work because the Prima Materia needs to absorb Gold for the next stage and my Gold is poor being only 18crt.
There are two questions which need answering:
The first one is how the hell can you start off with 500ml of Ozone water in a sealed vessel at 37C and end up with a white spongy oil of 50ml that weighs the same as the whole of the water?
Secondly, how did the amalgam of it and silver kill my cancer?
I honestly do not know the answers but that is what happened.
The reason that many have failed in this is because they do not know about the half life of O3 in water, which in turn forms back into O2 within minutes of creating it in water. They never fully understood how UV creates it in the world we live in.
You now know the Prima Materia and that as they say, is that.
See you in another four years folks.

That's it? This is the thing that is supposed to knock our socks of? As I suspected, claims that have hardly anything to do with alchemy, properly. Pure sensationalism and fishy boasts. To start with, practically nothing of what you describe was known to people from centuries ago, so they obviously could not have been doing such things. Also, the fact that you say that you have not been able to continue these experiments for lack of money and only having 18K gold (what's the matter, you are such a great "alchemist" and yet do not know how to perform simple purifications of gold?) finally answers the question I asked you before in another thread, about whether you have really prepared the Stone or not and tested whether it does transmute metals, and which you basically avoided to give a direct and unambiguous answer to. And the answer is obviously "NO!". If you really had, then you would not have need for money to continue. Use your supposed "white stuff" to make silver out of cheaper metals like lead or tin so you can finance your own experiments. I guess you can't because it doesn't really transmute metals into silver. Now, what were you saying to me in another thread about being "embarrassed"? Oh, yeah, that's what you should feel after this sensationalist fiasco. This is what happens to people with the mentality I described in the other thread: people who have not really fully and appropriately tested their beliefs and speculations to make absolutely sure that they are correct, but yet they still proclaim success. Unfortunately, the usual outcome of these habits is to make others waste their time and money in things that are almost always mistaken. Think of Starkey and his antimony regulus and mercury claims as a perfect historical example of this. Throngs of people for the last roughly 300 years have been wasting their time and money "cooking" and distilling antimony amalgams in the hope of getting the "Philosophical Mercury" because of this guy and his bad habit of passing his speculations and theories as if they were proven facts. A look at Starkey's laboratory notebooks, however, tells a very different story of his repeated failures to get anywhere with such methods, despite his assurances and promises of success to others.

alfr
10-17-2015, 10:05 PM
hi nav2010 very thank you for sharing your findings.very thanks all this open many door of many possible experiment very interesting thanks

my best regard

Seth-Ra
10-18-2015, 02:57 AM
Ozone won't dissolve gold, platinum or iridium.
It alone is a powerful oxidize and can oxidize the lesser metals easily to their highest oxidation state.

You essentially made a sort of colloidal silver... Silver butter, if you'd like. The oil/gel bit is curious in and of itself - but prolonged exposure to ozone is harmful to the lungs and an irritant to the eyes and skin; it's named after that chlorine-like smell, which in and of itself is a warning that you're fixing to piss off your lungs in the long run.
A combination of the silver's antibacterial and antimicrobial effects, and the ozone's powerful oxidizing, is probably what ate your cancer.

The Stone, it is not, however.

Awani
10-18-2015, 03:21 AM
The Stone, it is not, however.

I would have to agree, but I am no expert in chemistry... at first glance it reminded me of some sort of advanced ORMUS process...

There are many things that can cure cancer: colon flush, cannabis oil, ayahuasca etc... so alas I don't think that the fact it cured cancer is proof that it is the Stone.

The most powerful cure is the mind, so with the faith you had that it might be the Stone could be the very thing that cured you. And by believing in the Stone you are creating the Stone... so in a sense it is the Stone.

Why do alchemists always think the Stone is in physical form? ;)

:cool:

Spin-off thread created from this post: Is alchemy sacred? (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4531-Is-alchemy-sacred)

Andro
10-18-2015, 06:50 AM
From A Rosicrucian Notebook (https://books.google.com/books?id=o_RXyW-XizkC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=rosicrucian+notebook+ozone&source=bl&ots=K7F-kpEaWB&sig=UANWP8ifkS8mrNHCHXeU77_TIuQ&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=rosicrucian notebook ozone&f=false):

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/RC%20Ozone1_zpsty8aie7c.jpg

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/RC%20Ozone_zpsqsuxr6ra.jpg

More in the book.

However, from notes on the same chapter in the book:

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/Ozone_zpsyfz3un83.jpg


-------------------------------------------------------------

zoas23
10-18-2015, 09:18 AM
He shared his discoveries... no need to attack his views!
There are kinder ways to agree or disagree. This isn't a competition.

YOu know, he posted something interesting, which may have mistakes or not... but at least it is something to think about.

As a song goes: "It's so easy to laugh, It's so easy to hate, It takes strength to be gentle and kind".

I do not understand some things of what he explained, maybe it's the language barriers:


By the look of the votes, this is a done deal already so lets get on with it.
The Prima Materia.

(...)

There is however, an unlearned truth about this Oxygen bond, which I am going to tell you.
Take two pieces of stainless steel, you can cut them from an old knife or anything really, you just need about 2 square inch of thin stainless steel so you have two separate plates of one square inch each.
Take the two plates and make a sandwich of them, so they are 3mm apart, place two thin plastics strips that are 3mm square between them to hold them apart so you have a stainless steel sandwich held apart by the plastic strips. Place the strips at either end of the stainless steel so there is a void in the middle. You can use silicone sealant to glue the whole thing in place but only use small amounts of silicone. This is an anode and cathode of a device we will use to create and collect Ozone in water. Once the silicone has dried, get a glass beaker of approx 500ml in volume. With a blob of silicone in the middle of one of the plates, glue it to the inside of the beaker so that the plastic spacers are pointing towards the bottom of the beaker and so the whole thing is three quarters inside the beaker and a quarter of it would be in air should the beaker be full of water.
Fill the beaker with double distilled water or water from a very clean stream or river, do not use tap water. Take the 9v battery and the wires, which need to be about 8 inches long each. Place crocodile clips on either end of each wire so that you can connect the battery to the wires and the wires to each of the plates. They need to be small clips for to connect onto the plates so that you dont touch both plates with one clip and short circuit the plates. This whole apparatus will take you about an hour at most to construct. Fill the beaker with the specified water making sure that a quarter of your plates are out of the water. Connect the positive lead to the plate that faces the middle of the beaker and the negative to the plate that is nearest the glass. Dont let the crocodile clips touch the water; only let them touch each respective plate only.
This is the hardest part of the work done.

Does anyone dare to draw this "apparatus" with paint or photoshop?

I don't understand the details of the device itself.




What happens is @ 1.23v Oxygen and Hydrogen separate into their respective elements and will leave the water as bubbles. @ 1.51v the same process takes place but this time O3 Oxygen molecules form on and around the Anode of the device. Let this happen for a while and keep producing O3 bonds for 5 minutes but if the water temp increases to 37C then stop. Take the water out but do not dismantle your device because you are going to need it in the next few days.

I don't understand this part either... What does he mean with "@1.23v" and "@1,51v"????

I have a POOR understanding of electricity... can someone explain it in a "retarded way". He said he was using 9 volt batteries... isn't the energy ALWAYS 9 volts? (a constant flow of energy) Or 1,23v means something else?

Can you explain this part to me?

nav2010
10-18-2015, 11:02 AM
He shared his discoveries... no need to attack his views!
There are kinder ways to agree or disagree. This isn't a competition.

YOu know, he posted something interesting, which may have mistakes or not... but at least it is something to think about.

As a song goes: "It's so easy to laugh, It's so easy to hate, It takes strength to be gentle and kind".

I do not understand some things of what he explained, maybe it's the language barriers:



Does anyone dare to draw this "apparatus" with paint or photoshop?

I don't understand the details of the device itself.



I don't understand this part either... What does he mean with "@1.23v" and "@1,51v"????

I have a POOR understanding of electricity... can someone explain it in a "retarded way". He said he was using 9 volt batteries... isn't the energy ALWAYS 9 volts? (a constant flow of energy) Or 1,23v means something else?

Can you explain this part to me?

1.51v is the voltage at which Ozone starts to be produced. At 9v much more is produced but also more Hydrogen and Oxygen.
There has been much spoken since my last visit. All I am going to say is this: It is difficult in life to be able to seperate truth from untruth, to be able to seperate the clean from the filthy and the wrong from the right.
What is the cost of this knowledge that I gave to you? What will be the cost to yourself if you were to try what I told you?
The answer is nothing.
What have I demanded from anyone regarding this? At what cost is there to anyone who read these posts?
The answer is nothing.
So, there is nothing to lose by any venture other than a small amount of your time. I have given you a path to the Prima Materia, those who don't believe it without giving it a go, that is your own choice. Those who give it a shot, you will see the magic of nature. Some of the Sages have commented in the past: Beware the arrogance of men that reject the simple, for it is they who cast darkness into the light of the beholder.
Always remember that.

theFool
10-18-2015, 11:36 AM
I would like to share my opinions also on the begining post of this thread. I will move along the lines of "everyone is innocent until proven guilty" and "keep a small basket". Supposing this is not some kind of a fake report, I find it hard to swallow that simply digesting "electrified" distilled water can produce the effects described. However, if I was to simply reject it without giving the idea any hope, I would not be in this forum.
So, lets get to the details.

First, I like that nav2010 shares openly something that has value to him. Even if it is not the "prima materia" or turns out to be a false discovery, it doesn't matter because very few people would act in that way. Usually we keep secret whatever we think is of value (fake or not) and this is what dampens our progress. I think that stumbling upon discoveries of that kind requires the intervention of "divine providence" or "luck", and it seems that sharing, causes it to accumulate for your benefit.

Now the criticism, nav2010:
Since you use scientific words like "electrolysis" and "ozone" I cannot help it but point out that electrolysis (at 9V) cannot happen in distilled water, let alone to say that ozone is produced. I doubt that you see any bubble. A 5 min electrolysis in distilled water would only produce microliters of gas. I doubt that the smell you describe later in the digestion step is because of ozone; the amount produced is zero. If you want my opinion, try to explain the phenomenon using the concept of "electrical fluid" that comes out of the battery and charges the water. The term is semi-scientific and in that way people who know about science will not criticise and you can achieve whatever goal you have easier.

Except if you do something different or add some secret ingredient you don't tell (H2SO4 for example), I don't believe that ozone can be produced neither electrolysis happens. I continue by assuming that some kind of "electric fluid" has somehow changed the water. Of course I'm open to any criticism against my explanations you may have too since I do not have hands on experience on this matter.

Now, digesting the "electrified water" creates a white oil that concentrates the volume of the water eats metals etc. Hm, I cant say anything on this, I have to see it. To the people who are going to try it, maybe you could also digest water electrified from an ioniser or other high voltage source. But I doubt you will achieve anything. Those kind of "simple" discoveries usually work only for their first inventor and no matter how much in detail they are described, they cannot be replicated by random others. There is usually an unidentified "ingredient" or process left out from the original "how to" (usually unintentionally) that may wait for you to discover "by accident" later. Or not ...

Awani
10-18-2015, 01:13 PM
At what cost is there to anyone who read these posts?

Well time is money. ;)


It is difficult in life to be able to seperate truth from untruth, to be able to seperate the clean from the filthy and the wrong from the right.

This applies to both sides (the giver and the receiver of said truth). Only direct experience is truth, IMO, of which in this thread only you have (on this Ozone experiment)... but I don't think that what you describe is that "simple"... sounds very complicated and the path to the Stone (for me) is far simpler than that. But if it works for you then great.

Alchemy is a personal journey that is why it is funny when "alchemists" always try to give others the path... it will never work like that. I am not critical of this thread specifically (speaking more in general, this forum has had its fair share of threads like this; "this is the secret" etc.)... I just feel, still, that the secret impresses no one. The trick you use it for is everything. :)

Ozone Therapy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_therapy)

:cool:

nav2010
10-18-2015, 04:13 PM
So many experts and so many speak of the art as if they were the Sages themselves yet none have past even the first step of the art, you dream and talk as if you are Hermes yourselves! Bahahahaha. Sorry but it just makes me giggle.
The first time in your lives that you are presented with the Prima Materia on a plate and you scorn and reject it, not even having the decency to even perform what I have said before you condemn it. It makes me wonder what you would do if an ancient Sage presented you with his stone, Perhaps use it as a door wedge? Hehe
It matters not what any of you say and think anymore, there are people that will learn to prepare the Prima Materia from these threads and they will succeed in this art.
Good luck all and take care and to all those self proclaimed Hermes wannabees, chill man, you'll get the picture eventually.

zoas23
10-18-2015, 04:39 PM
Nav:

Can you take pictures/photos of the device you are using????

Or maybe draw it using a software... I do not understand some technical details of its construction.

Other than that, I do not know if you have something of worth or not, but I thank you for openly sharing.... whilst I also disagree with the lack of respect that some people comment your ideas, which were important for you to share (without caring if they are "the truth" or just "a mistake"). We must respect each other ALWAYS.

Awani
10-18-2015, 04:43 PM
So many experts and so many speak of the art as if they were the Sages themselves

I never claimed to have any wisdom whatsoever... you on the other hand behave as if you are sage and mage. Which is fine... but also the main reason I ain't buying.

I am only saying that there are multiple cures for cancer, and great that you found one of them.


Like all the other Sages that walked before me... What is the cost of this knowledge that I gave to you? The first time in your lives that you are presented with the Prima Materia on a plate...

A little humility goes a long way...


Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up. - Jesse Jackson


Good luck all and take care and to all those self proclaimed Hermes wannabes...


...whilst I also disagree with the lack of respect that some people comment your ideas, which were important for you to share (without caring if they are "the truth" or just "a mistake"). We must respect each other ALWAYS.

This is a forum and anything posted here will naturally be discussed. That is what it is all about. You get as much respect as you give. But I do agree JDP had a very "strong" objection. :)

:cool:

nav2010
10-18-2015, 05:56 PM
Nav:

Can you take pictures/photos of the device you are using????

Or maybe draw it using a software... I do not understand some technical details of its construction.

Other than that, I do not know if you have something of worth or not, but I thank you for openly sharing.... whilst I also disagree with the lack of respect that some people comment your ideas, which were important for you to share (without caring if they are "the truth" or just "a mistake"). We must respect each other ALWAYS.

This is my Ozone producer which I built a while back, these are larger plates than I explained that allow me to produce Ozone very quickly and the battery pack is high current, because the spacing between the plates is only 1mm it allows me to use distilled water and I still get current transfer and Ozone, I noticed one of the forum members said this was impossible. That is an error on their part. The plates are seperated by plastic nuts and bolts with washers inbetween.
The other picture are the melonoma or rather where they used to be on my arm.
I also read one of the members refering to the white oil as Oxygen, it is no longer Oxygen in my opinion, 50ml of it weighs about half a Kilogramme, it ain't no Oxygen I can assure you. During the evaporation and distilling it smells like Chlorine for a while then it loses its odour until you let it eat metals then the odours return. When it attacks silver and dissolves it, you can smell a bad eggs until it eats the vapours from the reaction then there is no smell again. When you give it silver filings, if you drop them on the top of it little by little they just dissolve into it and its swells up and becomes buttery. The swelling that takes place is larger than the silver that you put in though.
I'm no scientist, but what i've seen isn't normal and I know it isn't regardless of the ridicule i've had on here and all I ask is for people to do what I have done then make a decision regarding this. There is no point bickering and pointing fingers at me until you have a look at the material for yourselves. So what i'm going to do is make a video of the Materia, show you the weight on my electronic scales and show it eating the silver. I cannot be fairer than that. I'll also make a video of the Ozone white water being produced when its at its most volatile.

theFool
10-18-2015, 09:05 PM
.. I noticed one of the forum members said this was impossible. That is an error on their part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDGqya_jcuc

I guess I'll have to "eat my hat", oh well ..

JDP
10-18-2015, 09:06 PM
So many experts and so many speak of the art as if they were the Sages themselves yet none have past even the first step of the art, you dream and talk as if you are Hermes yourselves! Bahahahaha. Sorry but it just makes me giggle.
The first time in your lives that you are presented with the Prima Materia on a plate and you scorn and reject it, not even having the decency to even perform what I have said before you condemn it. It makes me wonder what you would do if an ancient Sage presented you with his stone, Perhaps use it as a door wedge? Hehe
It matters not what any of you say and think anymore, there are people that will learn to prepare the Prima Materia from these threads and they will succeed in this art.
Good luck all and take care and to all those self proclaimed Hermes wannabees, chill man, you'll get the picture eventually.

You don't need to wonder about what anyone would do if the "ancient Sages presented you" with the Stone, you can actually see it for yourself by actually giving samples of your alleged "Stone" so that others can put it to the test to see if you really have achieved what you claim, instead of making people waste money and time on things that look very suspiciously implausible. There is nothing remotely "weird', or "unusual", or "unknown" about ozone or ozonised water, so it is not like you are making any supposedly big "revelations" here.

zoas23
10-19-2015, 05:47 AM
This is a forum and anything posted here will naturally be discussed. That is what it is all about. You get as much respect as you give. But I do agree JDP had a very "strong" objection. :)

A lot of what I learnt was in the context of a (non-masonic) lodge.

I will reveal some off topic "secrets" which are not "secrets" anyway... all of them are about the way in which the WORD can be understood.

In some lodges the WORD is called "the dove"...

So the point of a meeting is to FEED THE DOVE.

To do such thing is very easy and very hard, since some rules should be followed.

-The "dove" flies from person to person and each one has the OBLIGATION of feeding the dove.

-Expressions such as "you are wrong", "you are not right" are 100% forbidden. This is known as "stealing the food of the dove".

-If you don't agree with what other person said, which is something that can happen a lot of time, you use the chance to LEARN how this other person thinks... and you may use the word (dove) yourself later and offer a different point of view, as to "feed the dove" with new food for thought.

-To directly criticize what another person said is 100% forbidden. So you have to learn how to express you opinion without destroying the opinion of the other, since he common goal of everyone is to "feed the dove".

-Nobody ever has the need to defend his position or point of view, since the "dove" is not owned by anyone and it's for everyone.

This whole thing is incredibly off topic... but thinking about this ideas may make the whole conversation more interesting for everyone. Too much time is wasted on "you are wrong", "I am right", etc... the whole conversation can be more interesting if we all avoid these things. Even if we disagree.

I like Nav and I like JDP and everyone here... let's be kind with each other and accept that we can all get along with our different experiences and views.

___________________

Going back to the topic, I do not get at all how the device works... I will try to draw it myself and see if someone can tell me which one is the right design to repeat what Nav is doing.

THank you for the photos, Nav, they helped me a bit, but I am still lost with some technical parts of your "device". I will try to draw it and you'll tell me if I am doing it right.

Is this your device:

http://s21.postimg.org/3lcwmadxj/aaaaa_Device.jpg

Am I missing any part or misunderstanding something?

Are you using "something else" to control the Voltage or it is always 9 volts????

nav2010
10-19-2015, 11:04 AM
That is not the way you connect batteries together and you do not need to connect batteries together anyway. 9v is a good voltage to create Ozone, so is a 12v alarm battery, a motorcycle battery etc etc. Ozone is released in water once you reach 1.51 volts, anything above that is good. The battery you saw in the picture is a rechargable cold cathode battery of 7.2v.
In releases 7.2v at an higher current than a 9v square battery but that is because I prefer to create Ozone much quicker when I'm using water out of a stream. The reason being stream water loses its O3 very quickly compared to double distilled, double distilled however is slow to release O3 but keeps it for longer, up to 3 hours.
My experience was to have DD water, stream and spring water at hand, spring water is cheap from any shop and stream water from any clean stream is free. When you produce Ozone in a container always allow the hydrogen gas to escape upwards, don't allow it to build up in the top of the container. It is a risk to do so. If you look at my container, the lid is designed to hold the plates in place not to seal the container. Because I was producing Ozone for months this design suited me the best.
If I were you I would study for a while on the web how to produce Ozone using electrolysis, you will benefit greatly by doing so.

JDP wrote:

You don't need to wonder about what anyone would do if the "ancient Sages presented you" with the Stone, you can actually see it for yourself by actually giving samples of your alleged "Stone" so that others can put it to the test to see if you really have achieved what you claim, instead of making people waste money and time on things that look very suspiciously implausible. There is nothing remotely "weird', or "unusual", or "unknown" about ozone or ozonised water, so it is not like you are making any supposedly big "revelations" here.

I have agreed to make a video showing the process, the heavy white oil, the weight of it and the process in which it eats metals and still you are calling me a liar and are demanding I mail you the white oil.
You, my dear fellow are a very dodgy person and not the type of person that should be trusted on these forums or indeed on these forums. How many other people have you done this to in the past, who gave you the right to call me a liar, what gives you the right to demand my oils?
The oils you are demanding, let me speak a little about them. If I mailed them in a test tube and for some reason that test tube broke, the oil would eat through the packaging, through the van or whatever was carrying them or indeed through a person who just happened to get in the way, i've told you this and you still insist they be mailed, you are irresponsible and not thinking about what you are saying.
If I did let someone have a sample, it would be by face to face and it wouldn't be you. I would also make it clear to this person that the tests carried out and the results obtained would not be made known to you.
The people on this forum, when you obtain the white oil which I promise you will, do not make the results known to JDP, keep it among yourselves and keep this evil man out of the loop because it is what he deserves.
JDP, in English terms of the worst kind, you are a prick. Bahahaha

Andro
10-19-2015, 11:56 AM
keep this evil man out of the loop because it is what he deserves.

JDP, in English terms of the worst kind, you are a prick. Bahahaha

Personal insults/attacks are NOT allowed on this forum. See the Rules & Guidelines (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/announcement.php?f=5&a=3).

It's a shame to get banned for personal issues, really. Especially when discussed topics are evolving so interestingly.

If you really need to, 'attack' the ideas/concepts, not the person. Never attack the person.

Personal attacks are often also a logical fallacy known as 'Ad Hominem'.

Nav, please don't do that.

First/last/only warning.

nav2010
10-19-2015, 12:11 PM
Personal insults/attacks are NOT allowed on this forum. See the Rules & Guidelines (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/announcement.php?f=5&a=3).

It's a shame to get banned for personal issues, really.

If you really need to, 'attack' the ideas/concepts, not the person. Never attack the person.

Personal attacks are often also a logical fallacy known as 'Ad Hominem'.

Nav, please don't do that.

First/last/only warning.

My apologies to the forum for the outburst, the reason I did that was because of one persons bad Karma. I made a mistake on this forum, what I should have done was to make a few video's first showing all the processes, pictures and a better explanation then people like JDP wouldn't have felt the need to call me a liar.
I need to rethink how i'm going to get this over to folks without all this bad Karma around me. I'm not good with web based technology like vids and such, i'll get help. I'll come back with a better presentation.

Andro
10-19-2015, 12:16 PM
My apologies to the forum for the outburst [...].
I made a mistake on this forum.

Thank you, Nav.

Now please, let's all continue this interesting topic without getting personal.

zoas23
10-19-2015, 12:23 PM
That is not the way you connect batteries together and you do not need to connect batteries together anyway. 9v is a good voltage to create Ozone, so is a 12v alarm battery, a motorcycle battery etc etc. Ozone is released in water once you reach 1.51 volts, anything above that is good. The battery you saw in the picture is a rechargable cold cathode battery of 7.2v.


So, something like this would do the trick?
You are right about the batteries... electricity is not really my field of knowledge at all.

http://s16.postimg.org/3oc7xndqt/bateria_gel_12v_9a_para_ups_recargable_906401_ML.j pg




My experience was to have DD water, stream and spring water at hand, spring water is cheap from any shop and stream water from any clean stream is free.

No streams in my city! And Spring water is not a "product I've ever heard of"... Rain water would be fine? I have an insane amount of it stored at home.



When you produce Ozone in a container always allow the hydrogen gas to escape upwards, don't allow it to build up in the top of the container. It is a risk to do so. If you look at my container, the lid is designed to hold the plates in place not to seal the container. Because I was producing Ozone for months this design suited me the best.
If I were you I would study for a while on the web how to produce Ozone using electrolysis, you will benefit greatly by doing so.

So, your experiment has 2 parts.

Part 1: "Ozonizing" the water, the recipient has to be open and NOT hermetic.

Part 2: "Storing" the water, and it has to be a glass recipient following the other tips you explained. Am I right this time?



You, my dear fellow are a very dodgy person and not the type of person that should be trusted on these forums or indeed on these forums. How many other people have you done this to in the past, who gave you the right to call me a liar, what gives you the right to demand my oils?
The oils you are demanding, let me speak a little about them. If I mailed them in a test tube and for some reason that test tube broke, the oil would eat through the packaging, through the van or whatever was carrying them or indeed through a person who just happened to get in the way, i've told you this and you still insist they be mailed, you are irresponsible and not thinking about what you are saying.


If your description if right, then it sounds reasonable not to send any of that by mail due to security issues.

Other than that... JDP is an EXCELLENT person and often VERY willing to help (he has helped me a lot with several questions I've asked).

It takes two to tango.... The relationship between JDP and you started with the "left foot"... I believe the two of you are still on time to say: "I am sorry, I've been a bit rude whilst replying, I don't agree, but I respect your views".

The two of you are clever persons and the two of you are having an incredibly stupid forum fight...

Tolerance, friendship, respectful disagreement, understanding that everyone has the right to have his own view and opining... the two of you should learn such thing. It seems obvious that the two of you do not agree, but you do not need to be enemies.

Something very corageous and brave would be if either of you dares to take the first step and say something as simple as: "I'm sorry if I have offended you, lets have a civilized conversation".

The internet is full of shit, but this place managed to be like a "sanctuary" where bullshit doesn't have a place. Let's all respect each other, even when we do not agree.

EDIT: I've seen that the mods have mostly said the same thing and you've taken the first step in that sense... thank you. I am VERY glad to see such thing happening.

nav2010
10-19-2015, 01:05 PM
So, something like this would do the trick?
You are right about the batteries... electricity is not really my field of knowledge at all.

http://s16.postimg.org/3oc7xndqt/bateria_gel_12v_9a_para_ups_recargable_906401_ML.j pg




No streams in my city! And Spring water is not a "product I've ever heard of"... Rain water would be fine? I have an insane amount of it stored at home.



So, your experiment has 2 parts.

Part 1: "Ozonizing" the water, the recipient has to be open and NOT hermetic.

Part 2: "Storing" the water, and it has to be a glass recipient following the other tips you explained. Am I right this time?



If your description if right, then it sounds reasonable not to send any of that by mail due to security issues.

Other than that... JDP is an EXCELLENT person and often VERY willing to help (he has helped me a lot with several questions I've asked).

It takes two to tango.... The relationship between JDP and you started with the "left foot"... I believe the two of you are still on time to say: "I am sorry, I've been a bit rude whilst replying, I don't agree, but I respect your views".

The two of you are clever persons and the two of you are having an incredibly stupid forum fight...

Tolerance, friendship, respectful disagreement, understanding that everyone has the right to have his own view and opining... the two of you should learn such thing. It seems obvious that the two of you do not agree, but you do not need to be enemies.

Something very corageous and brave would be if either of you dares to take the first step and say something as simple as: "I'm sorry if I have offended you, lets have a civilized conversation".

The internet is full of shit, but this place managed to be like a "sanctuary" where bullshit doesn't have a place. Let's all respect each other, even when we do not agree.

EDIT: I've seen that the mods have mostly said the same thing and you've taken the first step in that sense... thank you. I am VERY glad to see such thing happening.

It was not the fact that he disagreed with what I have written, people disagree all the time and it is a fact of life, if you can't deal with that then you're not normal. It was the fact he more or less implied I was a liar in an an attempt to discredit my work, that is very annoying especially in the light of what I know myself and also the fact he has absolutely no experience in this field. I saw this as a personal attack rather than just constructive criticism but that is water under the bridge and I will learn from this.
Back to the Ozone. Make the Ozone in the way I have described using electrolysis and any battery above 1.51 volts, my initial explanation of the glass beaker and the small plates I described was for a reason. It is better to start off in this path slowly, if you start making Ozone that will react at 37C much quicker because of the large volume of trapped O3 in the water it gives you less time to observe the reaction when you have it trapped in the vessel at 37C. Take it easy, let the serpent eat itself slowly and observe what takes place in the vessel.
Just to clarify, once you make Ozone trapped in water, it has an half life. YOU MUST get the O3 water out of your electrolysis container into the sealed glass vessel at 37C right away. Don't give it time to decompose into O2 naturally. Once its in there it will begin to evaporate straight away, once O3 in the air inside the vessel its half life increases to 3 days, the process then begins of the serpent eating itself and firstly you will see white shiney streaks in the water thin and wavery like little worms. Watch over the days the increase in activity and the vapours changing colour and become volatile and begin to smell like chlorine. Your water will begin to decrease slowly as the white oil increases into a slimy podge till there is no water left.
I will show video's and present a better case.

Hellin Hermetist
10-19-2015, 03:55 PM
I have agreed to make a video showing the process, the heavy white oil, the weight of it and the process in which it eats metals and still you are calling me a liar and are demanding I mail you the white oil.
a prick. Bahahaha

Ι think that he asked you to send him a sample of a substance which during melting transmute many times its weight of an imperfect metal in to pure silver or gold. Not some white oil which eat through metals. If you are so sure about your path why dont you make a loan from the local bank to buy some gold and prepare the philosophers stone from that gold and your white oil? You shall be able to pay your loan and make a lot more money by the artificial gold which you will produce when your work shall be accomplished.

Seth-Ra
10-19-2015, 05:39 PM
nav2010,


Gold isn't THAT expensive for testing and creating small samples of things. You can buy 24k gold leaf here. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LZ18MZS?keywords=gold%20leaf%20loose&qid=1445275857&ref_=sr_1_5&sr=8-5)

I typically buy several packs at a time, and am able to do many experiments and produce plenty of useful work from such.

Also, while I personally doubt this ozone-oil of yours, Im not going to write it off without some testing. I don't currently have the means to create it (nor the time to create the apparatus you describe), but when you make your videos, if you can show that it will handle gold, then i'll be more in favor of thinking you might have something other than simple oxidized/dissolved/colloidal silver. :D





~Seth-Ra

theFool
10-19-2015, 08:13 PM
I already did a small test with two knife blades (around 1cm x 10cm) separated at about 2 mm and at 15 Volts. I used deionised water, not distilled. According to my knowledge it should not create bubbles, but it did produce some, obviously because of the very small distance between the blades. The current consumption was about 30 mA only. However, with bigger area electrodes it seems that you can draw more current and produce more bubbles as I can see in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDGqya_jcuc

The gas produced probably is not ozone. I could not smell any ozone but also the guys who use much bigger devices to produce HHO gas or Brown's gas as they call it, have not reported anything about ozone production. My current opinion is that the device produces this HHO gas (which has been reported to have some "miraculous" properties too by HHO experimenters)

The nature of the gas remains to be discovered in future tests, but I would not fight over its name if it can turn into an oil whith digestion :p

For the time being I don't care much about going this way (missing equipment and time) but I'm happy to learn something I didn't know about the water electrolysis, thanks nav!

zoas23
10-19-2015, 09:18 PM
It was not the fact that he disagreed with what I have written, people disagree all the time and it is a fact of life, if you can't deal with that then you're not normal. It was the fact he more or less implied I was a liar in an an attempt to discredit my work, that is very annoying especially in the light of what I know myself and also the fact he has absolutely no experience in this field. I saw this as a personal attack rather than just constructive criticism but that is water under the bridge and I will learn from this.

His reaction didn't help. Your reaction to his reaction didn't help either.

I sometimes baby-sit my 5 years old nice and her friends... the fights she has with her friends are often more dramatic than the one you had with JDP... but they always FINISH at some given point because they have learnt the magical trick of saying: "I am sorry"... without having much discussions about WHO has to say "I am sorry" first.

As I've said, JDP is a very nice person who often helps persons who ask questions. The two of you deserve to give each other a chance. You know, you may end up becoming friends.

You are a kind person who shared his discoveries with the convinced belief that they are valuable (I also think that your ideas need more "testing").... You definitely have SOMETHING, but nobody is sure HOW it can be used and WHICH one would be the result.

I have no idea if it would do anything with GOLD, it may be absolutely impossible to do anything with it and gold.... and yet what you have is interesting and it opens many areas of experimentation.

I.e, let's forget about GOLD for a second... can this become an interesting "alternative method" of calcination for the simple spagyrics? Maybe.... So if it does not "work" with gold, we may all still have something that can be used in a different way.

It is also interesting fro me your affirmation that it will eat "ANYTHING" except for glass... I've asked myself the obvious question: Why the hell it does not "eat" the glass? Which other substances it will "refuse to eat"? There is at least one substance that it does not eat (glass).




Back to the Ozone. Make the Ozone in the way I have described using electrolysis and any battery above 1.51 volts, my initial explanation of the glass beaker and the small plates I described was for a reason. It is better to start off in this path slowly, if you start making Ozone that will react at 37C much quicker because of the large volume of trapped O3 in the water it gives you less time to observe the reaction when you have it trapped in the vessel at 37C. Take it easy, let the serpent eat itself slowly and observe what takes place in the vessel.


The process itself heats the water?
Would it be convenient to begin with cold water (20C) and wait till it reaches 37C...?
Or the idea is to work all the time with 37C water?



Just to clarify, once you make Ozone trapped in water, it has an half life. YOU MUST get the O3 water out of your electrolysis container into the sealed glass vessel at 37C right away. Don't give it time to decompose into O2 naturally. Once its in there it will begin to evaporate straight away, once O3 in the air inside the vessel its half life increases to 3 days, the process then begins of the serpent eating itself and firstly you will see white shiney streaks in the water thin and wavery like little worms. Watch over the days the increase in activity and the vapours changing colour and become volatile and begin to smell like chlorine. Your water will begin to decrease slowly as the white oil increases into a slimy podge till there is no water left.
I will show video's and present a better case.

I got that part easier than the first... but with your help I think I now understand the whole process.

I thank you for sharing your discoveries.

Kiorionis
10-19-2015, 10:51 PM
I think that he asked you to send him a sample of a substance which during melting transmute many times its weight of an imperfect metal in to pure silver or gold. Not some white oil which eat through metals.

It would be strange if he did ask for this, because as far as I've read from nav's posts, at no point has he said he has a stone which projects onto an imperfect metal and turns it to silver or gold. So in my opinion, the most anyone can confirm about this process is the production of the heavy oil which dissolves metals.

And if it does eat gold, that at least makes it an aqua regia right?

Kiorionis
10-19-2015, 10:55 PM
I.e, let's forget about GOLD for a second... can this become an interesting "alternative method" of calcination for the simple spagyrics?

I was thinking along the same lines today. What if an herbal tea is brewed in the doubly distilled water and set into the apparatus? Would the addition of the herb create problems for electrolysis?

And what would be more interesting is, if it works as an herbal tea, the tincture digested into an oil..

But all this is speculation and daydreaming :)

zoas23
10-19-2015, 11:27 PM
I was thinking along the same lines today. What if an herbal tea is brewed in the doubly distilled water and set into the apparatus? Would the addition of the herb create problems for electrolysis?

And what would be more interesting is, if it works as an herbal tea, the tincture digested into an oil..

But all this is speculation and daydreaming :)

A lot of things were discovered trying to create "something else"...

You know, I use "finasteride" to prevent going bald like the rest of my family (works really nice, no hair loss at all... I'm the non-bald one in the family, which is something I like).

This drug was created to help elder people with prostate pain (like a "pain-killer" specific for the prostate). The effect it had in that sense wasn't too worthy, but the individuals who tested it complained that they still had their prostate pain, but the weird side effect that they were no longer bald and the hair on their heads begun to grow again.

Nav is offering something new and it can be a "finasteride", it may end up being a "fiasco" for gold (or not), but SOMETHING ELSE may be done with it. So it is a matter of being open minded and seeing how it can be useful, it can be gold, but it may end up being useful for something absolutely unrelated to gold. So it is a nice discovery.

Seth-Ra
10-20-2015, 12:45 AM
And if it does eat gold, that at least makes it an aqua regia right?

Yes, and potentially a good philosophic one.
Hence why id like to encourage him to make this oil and test it on gold.

Whether it's good for spagyrics or other such, is personally irrelevant to me, as it was claimed as a way to the Stone; so it should be able to get the blood from the lion.
If not, then it's just a minor curiosity - which is fine and dandy for those who wanna play with it. (I personally have eyes and funds geared towards more grander expressions of things, as I suspect others do as well.)




~Seth-Ra

JDP
10-20-2015, 05:35 AM
My apologies to the forum for the outburst, the reason I did that was because of one persons bad Karma. I made a mistake on this forum, what I should have done was to make a few video's first showing all the processes, pictures and a better explanation then people like JDP wouldn't have felt the need to call me a liar.
I need to rethink how i'm going to get this over to folks without all this bad Karma around me. I'm not good with web based technology like vids and such, i'll get help. I'll come back with a better presentation.

It wasn't "bad karma", just a criticism of your claims.

JDP
10-20-2015, 05:37 AM
Ι think that he asked you to send him a sample of a substance which during melting transmute many times its weight of an imperfect metal in to pure silver or gold. Not some white oil which eat through metals. If you are so sure about your path why dont you make a loan from the local bank to buy some gold and prepare the philosophers stone from that gold and your white oil? You shall be able to pay your loan and make a lot more money by the artificial gold which you will produce when your work shall be accomplished.

Exactly correct. On all counts.

Also: he does not even need to apply for a loan. If he really has made the white Stone, he could simply transmute lead, tin, copper, etc. into silver, which would give a nice profit (lead, for example, is about $10 a pound, while silver is about $16 an ounce. If you transmute a whole pound of lead into silver that is about $256 return for a roughly $10 investment! Even after considering other expenses that still would leave a nice profit), enough to allow him to buy at least a few grams of pure gold and continue to try to make the red one.

In fact, his claim that only having access to 18k gold hasn't allowed him to continue is not convincing at all either. Can't he simply just separate the copper and/or silver from the gold alloy by inquartation and parting with nitric acid? This is very elemental assaying known to most alchemists for at least the last 600 years.

JDP
10-20-2015, 05:55 AM
It would be strange if he did ask for this, because as far as I've read from nav's posts, at no point has he said he has a stone which projects onto an imperfect metal and turns it to silver or gold. So in my opinion, the most anyone can confirm about this process is the production of the heavy oil which dissolves metals.


But he originally implied that he did make the Stone, that was the whole point of his "revelation" that was going to change the world forever. I asked him several times but he would not give a totally clear and unambiguous answer, just implications that he did make it. That's why I kept telling him to send samples (not necessarily only to me, but to any interested party who requests it) so his claim about having made it could be put to the test by others independently.

thoth
10-22-2015, 10:15 PM
Coincidently, I was listening to the Natural born alchemist podcast 41, while in my car, and there was also a reference to ozone. Well worth a listen.

http://www.naturalbornalchemist.com/episodes/2015/9/26/episode-41-rubaphilos-salfluere

ghetto alchemist
10-23-2015, 12:48 PM
Nav2010....you sir are a fucking legend.

My 2 dreams which I never thought I would realise in this lifetime are:
1: to find a real bona-fide sage here in this world, in the 21st century.
2: to ever get to see the precious philosophical mercury in a flask in my hands and look with my own eyes.
After your posts, I now know that both these dreams might actually be realised within my lifetime.

I remember once hearing a quote from several centuries ago that went something like this:
"show me a metal with a bright shiny yellow lustre, that is incorruptible (eg never tarnishes), and I care not whether it is actually gold"

Well I have a similar but slightly different motto:
"show me a medicine that can cure cancer in 5 days, and I care not whether it can transmute base metals to gold"

Dev mentioned that cannabis oil can cure skin cancer, and indeed it can. But what Dev did not mention is that cannabis oil requires over 3 months to do so. Nav2010, your medicine is 20 times faster!!! (and cannabis oil is in itself a 'miracle cure')

Nav2010, you are truly an asset to the human race, forget Jesus, bhudda, mohommad....I say the greatest man who ever lived is you!!

For revealing what you have revealed so openly without any expectation of reward...I am making a promise to you....set yourself up a public key (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4405-Sending-Receiving-messages-with-Public-Key-Cryptography) so I can send you an encrypted message. Then I will tell you my name, address and phone number. You have the option never to reveal yourself to me forever, but who I am is free for you and your family to know (but not others). I regret to say that I live in Australia, probably a long way from you.
But in spite of that....,

I offer my house as sanctuary for you or any member of your family who ever need it.
If you or any member of your family ever get into trouble, call me and I will do whatever I can to help.
If the lives of you or any member of your family are ever threatened, or placed in danger, call me and I will drop everything in my life to travel and stand shoulder to shoulder to face whatever threat/s you are up against.

This is the least that I can offer to the person who I so cynically thought does not even exist in this world. The above offers are absolute, unconditional, and permanent. Lastly, please check in to this forum again regularly, just so we can all know you are ok. It would be a bit cruel of you to disappear for 4 years as you hinted, leaving us wondering about your well-being.

zoas23
10-23-2015, 04:47 PM
Yes, do not leave!

I will try to do it on 10th November (approximately) and I would like to show you my results and ask questions.

Andro
10-23-2015, 05:02 PM
To the Ormus guys here:

I remember, years ago, seeing some material on the web from Barry Carter's "Jim", dealing with Ozone in a very particular manner.

If I remember correctly, "Jim" even described a special formula of O6, as opposed to O3.

Could anyone shed some light on this? Or does anyone have a link to those materials?

crestind
10-23-2015, 06:13 PM
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/ozone.htm
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/mystory.htm

zoas23
10-23-2015, 07:41 PM
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/ozone.htm
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/mystory.htm

Very interesting, but I don't understand how they make it.

Can someone have the patience to explain how to build this other device to produce O6????

ghetto alchemist
10-23-2015, 09:00 PM
Zoas: Can someone have the patience to explain how to build this other device to produce O6????

Here are some instructions for building a simple ozone generator HERE (http://www.bigclive.com/oz.htm). As far as I can tell, even the commercial units operate on the same basic principle of passing oxygen through an electrical spark or corona.

To be honest though, Nav2010's way is far easier and cheaper.
I already built the plates by cutting 2 stainless steel kitchen knives, as he suggested.
And to cut the knives, space them apart with plastic strips from a milk bottle, and glue together with silicon took less than 1 hour to make, exactly as he said it would.

The difficult stuff from Nav2010 instructions is making the double distilled water, which took me quite a few hours. And finding a way to keep your flask at 37 degrees, something I'm still working on.

What I'm saying is that Nav2010 very simple apparatus and instructions are already difficult enough to realise, so why make things harder still?

Illen A. Cluf
10-23-2015, 09:27 PM
Nav2010, I'm not sure that your discovery matches the practices of the past Philosophers, but nevertheless, it appears that you have discovered something unique and worth pursuing. Many others have made ozone, including making it in distilled water, but have not come up with the results that you have. Other than the temperature, what other aspects of your process do you consider to be unique, and which may contribute to your particular results?
Thank you.

Kiorionis
10-24-2015, 01:26 AM
The difficult stuff from Nav2010 instructions is making the double distilled water, which took me quite a few hours. And finding a way to keep your flask at 37 degrees, something I'm still working on.


You might want to try with oil or ghee candles + sand bath. I've had ghee candles last for 24 hours. If you mix it with beeswax it will probably last longer. If you keep the bottom of the flask warm, and the top exposed to the ambiance room temperature, the two ought to balance out.

The deeper you bury the flask, the more heat it will consume. The more the flask is exposed, the easier it will be for the heat to escape. ;)

Of course, it might take some playing with to get it right. And some fire bricks to prevent things from getting out of hand while you're not at home.

black
10-24-2015, 02:02 AM
Hi Ghetto Alchemist


I use plywood boxes fitted with light globes and a $14 temperature controller.

By varying the wattage of the globes and adjusting the temp controller
you can get and hold very accurate temps.

Googlehome made incubators.

Here is a link to temp controller.
These work realy good for the price.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10A-110-220-240V-Digital-Temperature-Controller-Temp-Heat-Cool-Sensor-Thermostat-/400843199029?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item5d541dd235&_uhb=1

crestind
10-24-2015, 04:02 AM
Thanks for the photos and all, nav2010. Makes more sense now. More or less as I had assumed, sort of like an electrolysis setup, except at lower voltage. Where did you first see that an electrolytic type setup could generator ozone?

The oil you describe is very interesting and I have no idea what it is. Just so I'm understanding you correctly, you basically let the setup in your photos run for 5 minutes or until it hits 37C, then you pour the water into a sealed vessel to store the stuff? Then after you incubate the water just miraculously disappears and leaves you with a grease?


In releases 7.2v at an higher current than a 9v square battery
Voltage = current * resistance
Given constant resistance, a higher voltage in a circuit would yield a higher current, so I'm a bit confused by this part, how a lower voltage would yield more current? The current rating on a battery dictates the maximum current that it can deliver in a circuit dependent upon the resistance. So it is not a figure that dictates how much current it will always deliver.

As for people looking for spring water or whatever, just get that super expensive Fiji stuff. I've heard people have had good results with it in other fringe type experiments vs regular water.

However, I will say if you have dissolved silver, see if this oil plus the silver also acts as a stone! If it is a philosophic mercury then it should have created a silver stone via the undifferentiated mercury + sulfur method. Get some lead and try projecting onto it.



Zoas: Can someone have the patience to explain how to build this other device to produce O6????
Pretty sure that stuff was speculative on Jim's part.

zoas23
10-24-2015, 08:07 AM
Here are some instructions for building a simple ozone generator HERE (http://www.bigclive.com/oz.htm). As far as I can tell, even the commercial units operate on the same basic principle of passing oxygen through an electrical spark or corona.

To be honest though, Nav2010's way is far easier and cheaper.
I already built the plates by cutting 2 stainless steel kitchen knives, as he suggested.
And to cut the knives, space them apart with plastic strips from a milk bottle, and glue together with silicon took less than 1 hour to make, exactly as he said it would.

The difficult stuff from Nav2010 instructions is making the double distilled water, which took me quite a few hours. And finding a way to keep your flask at 37 degrees, something I'm still working on.

What I'm saying is that Nav2010 very simple apparatus and instructions are already difficult enough to realise, so why make things harder still?

If you want a cheap incubator, there's two easy ways:

1) A "wet" incubator:
a) http://www.amazon.com/Flexzion-Submersible-Aquariums-Adjustable-Temperature/dp/B0155XBLA4/ref=sr_1_10?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1445672943&sr=1-10 (aquarium heater) <--- make sure it reaches 37c... most of the good ones do. The one I posted is just a random example.
b) http://www.plastic.co.nz/productimages/lmh/polystyrene-boxes/1913_1.jpg
c) normal water.
d) silicone glue.

Instructions:
-CUT the cable.
-dig a hole in the box for the cable... seal it with silicone.
-Repair the cable... though the "reparation" must be OUTSIDE the box... and after using tape, also use silicone.
-Fill the box with 1/3 of water....

And that's it....

2) A dry incubator (my prefered choice).
-Find a SMALL FACTORY of incubators for CHICKEN eggs (the best option is a typical "family owned business").
-The incubators they sell will not be useful for you because they will have many "devices" that don't make sense for alchemy (i.e, egg rotation, holes designed for eggs, etc).
-Tell them that you want one to produce mead... so that their "models" don't work for your needs.
-Convince them to sell you the electrical parts of the incubator ONLY, not the "box" or the "extra devices".
-Ask them how many cubic centimeters it heats.
-Create a box with a HARD wood and "install" the electric parts yourself, it's VERY easy, since incubators are quite basic.
(Hard wood: something like oak... and definitely not pine)

The explanation will make sense, because the chicken incubators have the priority of WIDTH... whilst the incubator you will need will probably have the priority of HEIGHT rather than width... but as long as you make it have more or less the same amount oc cubic centimeters, you'll be fine and it will work perfectly.

I did this "option 2" and I must have payed 40 to 50 dollars if I "translate" my local currency to dollars. Whilst a normal incubator with a "big size" costs from $150 to $400.

Edit:

A factory that produces this type of incubators:
http://www.incubadorasmartinez.com.ar/imagenes/productos/65h-didactica/d-65-cerrada-ch.jpg

And NOT this type of incubators:
http://static2.agroterra.net/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/800x800/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/o/incubadora-mod-108-masalles-3073385___mod.108.jpg

... because the first ones are often "hand-made" by the owners of the "family owned factory", so everything will be easier.

Option 3)
A wooden box with a reptile heater inside with a dimmer (of course, ask if it reaches 37c... not all of them do.

My suggested choice is the #2... but it's also the most expensive one.... but in the "long term" it will be the better.

Edit #2:

This is the one I made myself (Option 2)... it was easy to make it and it's in my living room, because if you make it yourself it CAN look nice instead of "ugly" (as normal incubators do):

http://s9.postimg.org/xg6t7ue73/aaaaa_DSC01107.jpg

crestind
10-24-2015, 03:02 PM
An incubator is not hard to make. Get a styrofoam box, put an incandescent light bulb inside (make sure it doesn't melt anything), maybe stick a fan in there to circulate air, done. Maybe cover the light with aluminum foil. Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't.

Salazius
10-24-2015, 05:02 PM
A bit of sand in a dish, a hot plate at 40 C, thermomether inside, aluminum foil to cover, "tadaammm" :D

theFool
10-25-2015, 12:29 PM
If I were you I would study for a while on the web how to produce Ozone using electrolysis, you will benefit greatly by doing so. Here is one link (http://www.ozonia.com/media/pdf/app/pure_water-e.pdf) that describes ozone production from electrolysis. We can see there that a special membrane is used between the electrodes. As they say, it acts as the electrolyte and also has a catalytic layer that "inhibit the formation of diatomic oxygen and encourage the formation of ozone."
In few words, you need this special membrane to produce ozone. Simply puting the electrodes side by side seems that it will not produce it.

We know that ozone has a distinctive smell even at low concentrations. If your simple design can produce it, the smell should be detectable at the beginning.

Until a member of this forum smells that, my opinion will be that the device produces a mix of oxygen and hydrogen gas or if you want a fancier word, HHO.

Anyway, if someone thinks that digesting an ozone solution can give an oil, they could just bubble some ozone in water and digest that.

ghetto alchemist
10-25-2015, 01:39 PM
This process very much reminds me of the pioneer Joe cell experimenters.
Eg using the "right water".
"charging" the water in an electrolytic cell, then transfer the charged water to
the actual joe cell to try to get it "breeding".

Perhaps the ozone stuff is simply Nav2010's attempt to rationally explain what he was seeing in his experiments.

Does it even matter to have a rational hypothesis to explain it, when initially we're only aiming to replicate the result?

BTW..thanks everyone for your help with the sand bath, you helped me, and no doubt many future readers of this thread on how to get a working solution.

amoodikh
10-25-2015, 03:42 PM
I have run a test on battery water for little more that 5 minutes following Nav2010 and kept the water inside a closed glass vessel overnight, and when opened it there was chlorine smell. :)

crestind
10-25-2015, 04:35 PM
What type of water did you use? Tap water in the US contains chloramines, which might explain the chlorine smell.

I would tend to agree with theFool. I'm not sure that any ozone is being produced here, but something unusual is happening.

amoodikh
10-25-2015, 05:48 PM
What type of water did you use? Tap water in the US contains chloramines, which might explain the chlorine smell.

I would tend to agree with theFool. I'm not sure that any ozone is being produced here, but something unusual is happening.

Battery water..that you use for vehicles/cars. it is a type of distilled water. Before processing it with electrolysis it did not have the type of chlorine smell Nave2010 mentioned...I tend to believe it is the smell created in the atmosphere air that is prorduced after stormy rain that I realized in the distilled water after going thruogh elecrolysis process.

theFool
10-25-2015, 08:40 PM
I have run a test on battery water for little more that 5 minutes following Nav2010 and kept the water inside a closed glass vessel overnight, and when opened it there was chlorine smell. :) Nice, I'll have to "eat my hat" one more time!

I found an interesting link today from David Wolfe: http://www.naturalnews.com/026387_Ormus_food_hydrogen.html#

Among others he reports that ozone around ormus gold will disintegrate aluminum foil. I don't know if this is connected to the experiment of this thread and the way metals are said to be eaten away but it could give ideas.

zoas23
10-28-2015, 04:41 AM
I've been talking to an open minded chemist about this issue...

I am preparing the device (all that's left is the metallic plates... I didn't want to use random plates, so I ordered two to a factory of stainless steel plates -they were cheap, so it was worthy to do it instead of fighting with two knives and trying to cut them).

My chemist friend said that if the process has been described in this way by Nav, he has no reason to disbelief in his account of the events (he also told me that the "cure of the cancer" with a heavy metal is something that sounds to him 100% logical and that it was a known fact for him that heavy metals work very well against cancer -he had the opinion that any solution containing dissolved silver would have done the job).

His other opinion was that this has nothing to do with Ozone... and whilst he was surprised by the described effects, he said that his opinion is that the device is producing hydrogen and O2, but not O3... and trying to follow the "alchemical logic", he said that probably this "Prima Materia" was not ozone, but Hydrogen.

He found the process very curious, but doubted the idea that it will "create" any gold (he doesn't "believe" in alchemy at all and thinks as a chemist, but I found his opinions interesting... other than that, they are just opinions of a chemist who read a description of the procedure -i.e, I can't confirm or deny if he's right or not).

Awani
10-28-2015, 05:00 AM
he has no reason to disbelief in his account of the events (he also told me that the "cure of the cancer" with a heavy metal is something that sounds to him 100% logical and that it was a known fact for him that heavy metals work very well against cancer -he had the opinion that any solution containing dissolved silver would have done the job).

Cancer is basically a parasite... like being possessed. Werewolves and vampires are both killed with silver.

Maybe we should listen more closely to those old folktales! ;)

:cool:

JDP
10-28-2015, 05:05 AM
I've been talking to an open minded chemist about this issue...

I am preparing the device (all that's left is the metallic plates... I didn't want to use random plates, so I ordered two to a factory of stainless steel plates -they were cheap, so it was worthy to do it instead of fighting with two knives and trying to cut them).

My chemist friend said that if the process has been described in this way by Nav, he has no reason to disbelief in his account of the events (he also told me that the "cure of the cancer" with a heavy metal is something that sounds to him 100% logical and that it was a known fact for him that heavy metals work very well against cancer -he had the opinion that any solution containing dissolved silver would have done the job).

His other opinion was that this has nothing to do with Ozone... and whilst he was surprised by the described effects, he said that his opinion is that the device is producing hydrogen and O2, but not O3... and trying to follow the "alchemical logic", he said that probably this "Prima Materia" was not ozone, but Hydrogen.

He found the process very curious, but doubted the idea that it will "create" any gold (he doesn't "believe" in alchemy at all and thinks as a chemist, but I found his opinions interesting... other than that, they are just opinions of a chemist who read a description of the procedure -i.e, I can't confirm or deny if he's right or not).

Did your chemist fried read such parts of his account as this one, for example?:

"I also read one of the members refering to the white oil as Oxygen, it is no longer Oxygen in my opinion, 50ml of it weighs about half a Kilogramme, it ain't no Oxygen I can assure you."

I find it very difficult to believe that any modern chemist will easily accept that by simply digesting some "ozonised" water it will condense into an "oil" of such great density.

JDP
10-28-2015, 05:21 AM
Cancer is basically a parasite... like being possessed. Werewolves and vampires are both killed with silver.

Maybe we should listen more closely to those old folktales! ;)

:cool:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7116/144/1600/edgar%20and%20alan.jpg

zoas23
10-28-2015, 08:57 AM
Did your chemist fried read such parts of his account as this one, for example?:

"I also read one of the members refering to the white oil as Oxygen, it is no longer Oxygen in my opinion, 50ml of it weighs about half a Kilogramme, it ain't no Oxygen I can assure you."

I find it very difficult to believe that any modern chemist will easily accept that by simply digesting some "ozonised" water it will condense into an "oil" of such great density.

Long version of the story:

My chemist friend believes that alchemy and chemistry are one and the same thing, but that the alchemists explain chemical processes using a terminology that is absolutely foreign to modern chemistry... and that in most cases the processes that the alchemists perform actually work, but not because of the reasons that the alchemists "believe" that they work.

I did not agree with him, so he asked me to discuss the issue with him, which I accepted.

I am VERY far from being an expert in modern chemistry.
I told him that I knew that the law of conservation of mass ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass ) has some "exceptions" when it comes to quantum mechanics or very "tiny" systems like a group of atoms and ONLY under very specific conditions.

So I told him about a well-known alchemical process, which is exposing antimony to the sun using a magnifying glass... that the result is that the antimony will gain weight (something between 2% to 4% of the original weight). I told him that the alchemical explanation is that the antimony has "absorbed some of the sulphur of the Sun" (I also had to explain what "sulphur" means in alchemy, as to avoid confusions. He understood my explanation).

He agreed with the result of the operation, but said that the explanation is completely wrong and that it's not even an exception to the law of conservation of mass: "You are oxidizing the antimony into antimony trioxide (Sb 2 O3), basically *fixating* oxygen from the air into solid form, hence you have a addition of weight (but not mass!)".

He also said that the same experiment would do "nothing" if it is done in a vacuum, so that the responsible for this reaction was oxygen and not "the sulphur of the sun".

WE also discussed the possibility of creating 100% ethanol with a vigreaux and adding pottasium carbonate to the mix of alcohol and water before distillation. Even if that's not exactly an "alchemical" process, he was VERY skeptic about it and said: "100% ethanol is difficult to attain as it forms an azeotrope with water just below 96% EtOH, you need a third molecule to break that azeotrope, a vigreux is not enough. Also inherintly it will make ether by dehydrating (2 C2H5OH => C2H5-O-C2H5 + H2O), hence it usually has a extra molecule keeping that from happening. A vigreux is just a destillation column, a semi-fractional destillation column. It won't be able to make 100% ethanol. Neither when adding potassium carbonate, which would just sit in the bottom with the rich water azeotrope.

Now what you can do is use vacuum destillation, seems the azeotrope isn't present under 25C."

His opinion was interesting for me.

After discussing other issues, I remembered about Nav's experiment and I explained it to him with all the possible details I remembered (the shape of the device, the idea that it creates O3, the idea that it *dies* after 3 days in the air and after some minutes in the water, that it becomes an *oily white substance* and that it has to be kept in a sealed glass container in an incubator set at 37C).

He DID believe in the honesty of Nav's account of the events, but also had the opinion that his "interpretation" of what was going on was wrong (from a chemical point of view): he said that the reaction of this electrolysis was charging the water with H+ ions that due to a reaction that I did not really follow would end up creating H2O2 (average Hydrogen peroxide) and that the gas was probably H+ ions ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_ion ) and that any "ozone" created would react with the H2O2 creating SOME small amounts of H2O3 and even more H+ ions.

So, mostly, he said that the "Prima Materia" of Nav is not exactly ozone, but H+ / H2O2 / H2O3... and agreed that such thing would "eat" metals and not glass.

As for the "cancer cure", he agreed that it was possible, but discarded the importance of this "prima materia" and said that silver or other heavy metals dissolved in any solvent would have had the same result for a skin cancer.

(I may be making some minor mistakes here because I was taking notes fast).

After talking to him, since I am not a chemist, I investigated by myself. I found the idea of H2O3 interesting, because it has properties that perfectly match some things that Nav claimed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trioxidane


Trioxidane readily decomposes into water and singlet oxygen, with a half-life of about 16 minutes in organic solvents at room temperature, but only milliseconds in water. It reacts with organic sulfides to form sulfoxides, but little else is known of its reactivity.

So I thought that probably Nav invented a "factory" of H2O3 that is continuously creating and killing H2O3 in a mix of H2O2 and H+ (this last phrase is 100% speculation that comes from me after talking to the chemist... since my knowledge of chemistry is very poor, it is possible that I may be stating something completely wrong and stupid from a chemical point of view).

By the way, DEV: a dialogue between an alchemist and a "friendly" chemist about different subjects can be truly interesting for an episode of your "Natural Born Alchemist" podcasts... ideally it should be an alchemist with a good understanding of chemistry.

MrMantura
10-28-2015, 09:52 AM
This reminds me of the Jerel Path. In fact, the red compact mass he derived from gold could very have been because of Ozone.

Let's compare.

Jerel's Method was to take distilled water and add a pinch of Potassium Nitrate to a beaker. Two gold electrodes were placed in the beaker and a voltage of 42V was passed through. After some time, the gold electrodes become tarnished with a dark purple or black colour. The electrodes are removed and then placed in another beaker of distilled water with contains a pinch of sodium chloride. The solution then, over time, becomes red.

Jerel did this more than 100 times. In his own words, after a while, ""the [gold] diatoms polymerize and will separate from the liquid. You ingest each material as you get it. The solid is 100s of times more potent."

It could very well be that Jerel inadvertently created ozone and then created an a thick gelatinous mass of gold diatoms.

Very interesting work Nav.

Take care.

Awani
10-28-2015, 07:28 PM
Zoas23: that is a great idea. Would need help to find the suitable alchemist. Chemist is easy.


This reminds me of the Jerel Path. In fact, the red compact mass he derived from gold could very have been because of Ozone.

We cover a lot about Jerel (if it is the same individual I am thinking of) in this episode: Episode 41 (http://www.naturalbornalchemist.com/episodes/2015/9/26/episode-41-rubaphilos-salfluere)

:cool:

zoas23
10-28-2015, 09:20 PM
Zoas: that is a great idea. Would need help to find the suitable alchemist. Chemist is easy.

Androgynus!!!!

Andro
10-28-2015, 09:30 PM
Androgynus!!!!

There are much better suited people here for this kind of dialog.

Besides, we're slip-sliding a bit off topic :)

Seth-Ra
10-28-2015, 10:46 PM
Zoas23,

Your chemist friend sounds to be more on the money for this.
I have used H2O2 and a couple of salts to dissolve gold before - it works well and isn't as toxic or costly as normal Aqua Regia (nitric and hydrochloric).

To that end - there may be something worth noting here if we shift the focus from the ozone, and put it on Hydrogen. :)




~Seth-Ra

ghetto alchemist
11-01-2015, 06:18 PM
Just wanting to add here that so far I have been unable to replicate the result.

I tried piping ozone directly into a flask (made by ozone machine from air) with no result.
And I also tried the electrolysis method as described with no result.
For the electrolysis, I used 2 large kitchen cutting knives cut to shape and
separated with milk bottle plastic and silicone (as per spec), but electrolysed
with my car battery.

Been trying to work out why I failed, and the only thing I can come up with
is that my kitchen knives stick very strongly to a magnet. And this
normally doesn't happen with stainless steel.

So I will try to find some other type of food grade (non-magnetic) stainless
steel and try again. My next attempt will be with cut down sections of stainless
steel pots.

But in the meantime, I add news of my failure here for others trying to replicate
Nav2010's results.

theFool
11-01-2015, 07:21 PM
Just wanting to add here that so far I have been unable to replicate the result.May I ask, what kind of water you used? Did you see the tiny bubbles during the electrolysis?
Thanks.

ghetto alchemist
11-01-2015, 10:28 PM
May I ask, what kind of water you used? Did you see the tiny bubbles during the electrolysis?
Thanks.

I used rain water collected from my roof, and then distilled twice by me.

The plates are very close together and one third of them was sticking out of the water (according to spec), which made it impossible to see or measure the gas produced. But some bubbles were displaced under the water through the sides of the spacers, and I could hear a faint fizzing noise the entire time, meaning gas was indeed being produced. I also should add that I had the electrolysis going for 40 mins before I transferred the water into a stoppered flask and put it into the sand bath.

Since I know you are a man of science, I realise that you're probably scratching your head as to why non-magnetic stainless steel could possibly make any difference. And the answer is that I checked some Joe cell videos a week ago to get some clues as to what the fuck might be going on. And I saw an interview where Joe said that it is crucial to use 316 stainless with the seams lined up for replicating his cells. Curiously he also said that the design is not his at all, but in fact was acquired from Ron Davis (I already knew that, but was surprised to finally see Joe become frank enough to start to admit the truth).To my understanding 316 stainless has a higher nickel content, and is almost the same as mu-metal, so I'm assuming the magnetism might be a crucial aspect in this technology.

But...for a man of science I have an even better answer still.....classic science tells us that nuclear materials are highly sensitive to magnetic fields

zoas23
11-01-2015, 10:52 PM
I've ordered 2 stainless steel plaques, I will get them in the next 4 days... cut with this shape |__________| if you see them from the side (translated to dolllars, the cost of both of them was $4).

I will not use plastic, but pieces of 3mm glass.

The plaques are 0,7 cm thick, so they won't bend (they are indeed quite hard to bend using your own hands).

I will try it as soon as I have them... in just a few more days.

If your plaques bend and touch each other, the most obvious solution would be to add some more "plastic" between them as to avoid such thing.

Awani
11-01-2015, 11:38 PM
I must say I am enjoying the activity... it's like a project that is going on across nations... just what these forums are about.

Looking forward to pics.

:cool:

thoth
11-02-2015, 08:03 PM
I wonder if it would make any difference using "heavy water"

crestind
11-03-2015, 07:13 PM
Will nav be back to post his video?

Awani
11-03-2015, 09:23 PM
Will nav be back to post his video?

Yes in 4 years. ;)

Send him a PM, maybe he has the setting he will get an email notification.

:cool:

ghetto alchemist
11-06-2015, 06:54 PM
The more I read about this, the more amazed I am....


Zoas says:
any "ozone" created would react with the H2O2 creating SOME small amounts of H2O3 and even more H+ ions.

So, mostly, he said that the "Prima Materia" of Nav is not exactly ozone, but H+ / H2O2 / H2O3... and agreed that such thing would "eat" metals and not glass.


The wikipedia article says:
Trioxidane can be obtained in small, but detectable, amounts in reactions of ozone and hydrogen peroxide, or by the electrical dissociation of water.

So it seems that Nav's electrolysis is probably generating this mysterious trioxidane (H2O3)


wikipedia also says:
Trioxidane readily decomposes into water and singlet oxygen, with a half-life of about 16 minutes in organic solvents at room temperature, but only milliseconds in water

This matches Nav's observation that the water must be transferred into a stoppered flask very quickly, before his "ozone" comes out of solution.

But here is something really of interest...there is a startup company using trioxidane to disinfect hospital rooms (through the reaction of ozone and hydrogen peroxide). Link is here. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/new-hospital-germ-killer-mimics-human-immune-system/article4246986/)

But here is the killer quote from that webpage:
“When you go back in the room, it smells like a nice spring evening after a lightning storm,”

That's the smell!

ghetto alchemist
11-06-2015, 07:07 PM
Also...just to keep the forum up to date with a previous post.....I tried to electrolyse water again with non-magnetic stainless steel plates, but still no success. So that wasn't the problem after all.

Still trying....

zoas23
11-06-2015, 07:41 PM
Also...just to keep the forum up to date with a previous post.....I tried to electrolyse water again with non-magnetic stainless steel plates, but still no success. So that wasn't the problem after all.

Still trying....

I'm doing it today, my device is finished... will post the first results later.

Dendritic Xylem
11-06-2015, 10:52 PM
You can get stainless steel in the form of blank wall outlet plates at hardware stores like Home Depot and Lowes in the U.S.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Pass-Seymour-1-Gang-Blank-Wall-Plate-Stainless-Steel-SL13CC20/202655336

Based on the comments in this thread...I may be the most experienced one here when it comes to building hho electrolysis units.
The amount of ozone or peroxide created with such little current (distilled, no electrolyte) in such a short period of time would be negligible imho.
Sure you may smell it (noses are amazingly sensitive), but I don't think it's enough to dissolve hardly any silver...at least in the amounts worked with in this thread.
If you don't believe me then go buy a $2 bottle of peroxide from the first aid section, and submerge a silver coin in it.
Or get a $13 ozone generator on ebay and bubble it through water for days, then submerge coin in it. It may tarnish, but won't dissolve at any significant rate.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC110V-500mg-hr-Ozone-Generator-Tube-Water-Air-Sterilizer-Ozonizer-Purifiers-10W-/111489781301?hash=item19f54f0e35:g:LLcAAOSwcu5UQ~9 h


If nav was telling the truth, then I think they stumbled onto something more occult than oxygen. I would really like to see the video...

zoas23
11-08-2015, 06:41 AM
I did not have the time during the weekend as to try it due to different activities with my girlfriend, so I will do it on monday.
These photos may help though:

http://s13.postimg.org/cp7dejfuf/DSC01108.jpg

http://s13.postimg.org/821bcrshj/DSC01109.jpg

http://s13.postimg.org/vcfh8g4xj/DSC01111.jpg

http://s13.postimg.org/3rmnh6nef/DSC01112.jpg

That's my version of the "Nav device".

It's two metal sheets bought at a store that only sells stainless metal sheets and they curved those angles which will be useful. The plaques are separated with a 3mm glass glued with silicone (it made more sense than plastic... I bought them at a glass shop and they charged me something like $0.10 dollars... almost nothing).

I used one on the top, one on the bottom and one in the middle.

the plaques are very hard and impossible to bend using just the hands, the cost of them was less than $5 dollars. The size I've used is 10 cm x 25 cm (total), but the bent angles reduce the surface in which the plaques face each other.

The upper angle makes it easier to connect to an electrical current, the bottom angle makes it simple to keep it "standing" instead of having to blue them to something else like Nav did.

I think the design is simpler, we'll see if it works this monday.

zoas23
11-09-2015, 12:14 PM
I will post in "real time", so I will be editing this one as I prepare the water...

I am using 12 Volts and 8 amperes.

9:05 am: Water temperature: 18C.... the electricity is switched off.

http://s29.postimg.org/uaic8876v/12207680_10208125827691237_247388212_n.jpg

9:10 Electricity switched on: a few small bubbles in the "anode" plaque... no bubbles at all in the "cathode" plaque.

http://s29.postimg.org/dy8aihsvb/12207876_10208125827771239_514270832_n.jpg

9:20 am: water temperatue is 20C... some more bubbles showed up between the plaques, the anode plaque in the side that is further from the other plaque has the same amount of bubbles it had before...

http://s13.postimg.org/y36356xs7/12233220_10208125874732413_1895503599_n.jpg

9:33 am: water temperature is 24C.... no need to shoot another photo, so far everything looks identical to the previous photo.

9:43 am: water temperature is 25C... the "cathode" plaque had no bubbles in the outer surface, now it has one:

http://s30.postimg.org/xikmdhuox/12207808_10208125943334128_2090211894_n.jpg

10:00 am: water temperature is 26C.... from time to time a small bubble ascends to the surface, but quite far from a "bubble fiesta"... maybe one small bubble per minute. So far the experiment is not more interesting than watching a glass of water, but I expect interesting things to happen later.

10:27 am: the water temperature is 27C... nothing worth mentioning has happened since the last 30 minutes...

11:12 am now I see that Nav wrote: "What happens is @ 1.23v Oxygen and Hydrogen separate into their respective elements and will leave the water as bubbles. @ 1.51v the same process takes place but this time O3 Oxygen molecules form on and around the Anode of the device. Let this happen for a while and keep producing O3 bonds for 5 minutes but if the water temp increases to 37C then stop."

My interpretation had been "keep on doing it till the water reaches 37C and stop there"... but now I think he meant: "do it for 5 minutes and stop, though if the water gets hotter than 37C, then stop before those 5 minutes".

The temperature of the water is still 27C.... it does not look that this is going to get warmer. Maybe I misunderstood the whole thing.

11:35 am: the water is in two sealed vessels.... I'm currently doing it again, this time following the other possible interpretation of "do it for 5 minutes and stop". This water will go to a third vessel.

11:49 am: I followed the other possible interpretation of "do it for 5 minutes", I did it for 5 minutes exactly.

And now the water of the Experiment #1 is in the "plain" vessel and the "luted" vessel... whilst the water of the Experiment #2 is in the "decorated" vessel and in the blue vessel. The four of them are on a hot plate set at 37C...

http://s8.postimg.org/jectbmohh/12233364_10208126558869516_578004194_n.jpg

And covered with an ugly sweater to protect them from the sun:

http://s8.postimg.org/q3jcrn9th/12226430_10208126558589509_156908757_n.jpg

15:40 pm: So far the water in the vessels produced some circulation, that is expected from any water trapped in a vessel that is on a hot plate... I've opened for a second a bottle of a vessel of the experiment #1 and one of the #2... they do not smell like chlorine, they have no smell... nothing "strange" is happening. This may take some patience... I wish Nav was around; because right now I am confused.

I will post in the next days what happens with the 4 vessels...

Since this is the first time, I decided to add nothing to the water and let it follow its own process without including anything else.

P.S, if someone has "tips", "comments" or whatever... they are welcome.

amoodikh
11-09-2015, 08:42 PM
I will post in "real time", so I will be editing this one as I prepare the water...

I am using 12 Volts and 8 amperes.

9:05 am: Water temperature: 18C.... the electricity is switched off.

http://s29.postimg.org/uaic8876v/12207680_10208125827691237_247388212_n.jpg

9:10 Electricity switched on: a few small bubbles in the "anode" plaque... no bubbles at all in the "cathode" plaque.

http://s29.postimg.org/dy8aihsvb/12207876_10208125827771239_514270832_n.jpg

9:20 am: water temperatue is 20C... some more bubbles showed up between the plaques, the anode plaque in the side that is further from the other plaque has the same amount of bubbles it had before...

http://s13.postimg.org/y36356xs7/12233220_10208125874732413_1895503599_n.jpg

9:33 am: water temperature is 24C.... no need to shoot another photo, so far everything looks identical to the previous photo.

9:43 am: water temperature is 25C... the "cathode" plaque had no bubbles in the outer surface, now it has one:

http://s30.postimg.org/xikmdhuox/12207808_10208125943334128_2090211894_n.jpg

10:00 am: water temperature is 26C.... from time to time a small bubble ascends to the surface, but quite far from a "bubble fiesta"... maybe one small bubble per minute. So far the experiment is not more interesting than watching a glass of water, but I expect interesting things to happen later.

10:27 am: the water temperature is 27C... nothing worth mentioning has happened since the last 30 minutes...

11:12 am now I see that Nav wrote: "What happens is @ 1.23v Oxygen and Hydrogen separate into their respective elements and will leave the water as bubbles. @ 1.51v the same process takes place but this time O3 Oxygen molecules form on and around the Anode of the device. Let this happen for a while and keep producing O3 bonds for 5 minutes but if the water temp increases to 37C then stop."

My interpretation had been "keep on doing it till the water reaches 37C and stop there"... but now I think he meant: "do it for 5 minutes and stop, though if the water gets hotter than 37C, then stop before those 5 minutes".

The temperature of the water is still 27C.... it does not look that this is going to get warmer. Maybe I misunderstood the whole thing.

11:35 am: the water is in two sealed vessels.... I'm currently doing it again, this time following the other possible interpretation of "do it for 5 minutes and stop". This water will go to a third vessel.

11:49 am: I followed the other possible interpretation of "do it for 5 minutes", I did it for 5 minutes exactly.

And now the water of the Experiment #1 is in the "plain" vessel and the "luted" vessel... whilst the water of the Experiment #2 is in the "decorated" vessel and in the blue vessel. The four of them are on a hot plate set at 37C...

http://s8.postimg.org/jectbmohh/12233364_10208126558869516_578004194_n.jpg

And covered with an ugly sweater to protect them from the sun:

http://s8.postimg.org/q3jcrn9th/12226430_10208126558589509_156908757_n.jpg

15:40 pm: So far the water in the vessels produced some circulation, that is expected from any water trapped in a vessel that is on a hot plate... I've opened for a second a bottle of a vessel of the experiment #1 and one of the #2... they do not smell like chlorine, they have no smell... nothing "strange" is happening. This may take some patience... I wish Nav was around; because right now I am confused.

I will post in the next days what happens with the 4 vessels...

Since this is the first time, I decided to add nothing to the water and let it follow its own process without including anything else.

P.S, if someone has "tips", "comments" or whatever... they are welcome.

In your photo before last I see that the water has a yellowish ting..if so then you have leached some iron from your stainless steel plates. Check them...This could be caused by your 8 amps and long run your experiment I guess. I have run it 5 minutes and caught the chlorine smell but when I run it for 1/2 hr I did not get the chorine smell but I only saw small bubbles in my water inside the closed bottle...I could be wrong though.

zoas23
11-10-2015, 01:39 AM
In your photo before last I see that the water has a yellowish ting..if so then you have leached some iron from your stainless steel plates. Check them...This could be caused by your 8 amps and long run your experiment I guess. I have run it 5 minutes and caught the chlorine smell but when I run it for 1/2 hr I did not get the chorine smell but I only saw small bubbles in my water inside the closed bottle...I could be wrong though.

You are right about the yellowish color. I don't know how to explain it, though it can be many things:
-The plaques came with "stickers" covering the whole of them to avoid scratches... so it can actually be the remaining glue of those stickers. They were also cut using a machine, so it can be "grease" of the machine.

I boiled and cleaned the plaques after the experiment #1 because of this yellowish color.

11:15 pm So far, the Experiment #1 still has this yellowish color, I don't smell something strange and some bubbles showed up inside the bottle:


http://s22.postimg.org/ae3ub9fpd/12207974_10208129597785487_430479983_n.jpg


11:15 pm - Experiment #2

I shot another pic of the bottle, I didn't see any strange thing....

http://s22.postimg.org/po3pigb7l/12233277_10208129597345476_1147672790_n.jpg

... Until I returned to this thread to post about my feeling of "not much going on" and I saw the previous picture and I got my first WTF experience with this experiment. I have compared the two photos, I've made a collage to show it:

http://s22.postimg.org/ffb8cmn5t/Water_is_gone.jpg

The "absurd" explanation that Nav gave about the water that was going to disappear... it is happening.

EDIT: This flask is perfectly hermetic... there's no way to explain this issue by stating that the water "evaporated". So now this is getting interesting. I decided NOT to open this flask, I will keep it shut for 3 days and simply observe what goes on.

zoas23
11-10-2015, 08:05 AM
If everything goes well with Nav's experiment, so far I am seeing the first results, I thought I may give this "alternative" design a chance:

http://s13.postimg.org/kr2hylatz/alternative.jpg

I've noticed that TIME is a key factor (an extended time seems to give worst results rather than better results).

The "alternative" design is still "Nav's device", the only difference is that it extends a lot the area in which the metal plaques are in contact with the water... it may make a difference.
All the plaques would have the same size, it's just a matter of placing one closer to the left, the next one closer to the right, the next one closer to the left, etc...

Watching the experiment made it obvious that most of the "action" happens between the plaques... so maybe this alteration of the "Nav's device" can increase that "action" without increasing the time factor.

(And the cost of the device, without the battery, should be around $10... and it's maybe even easier to build than the original design -at least for those who have a drill, but anyone has at least one friend who owns a drill if you don't have one yourself).

I may give it a try later.

A question I have. TheFool posted a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDGqya_jcuc

Is anyone able to explain why the results of the "Nav's device" and the results of the "HHO device" are so different when the "device" itself is not specially very different?????

5:47 am (Day #2)

The water is certainly "disappearing", though no signs of the "white oil" yet.

The animated gif compares the photo I shot when it was 22:15 pm (day 1) and the photo I shot when it was 5:47 am (day 2)... some 7 hours later... and some 2 extra centimeters of water that "vanished" again... the flask has not been opened.

http://s8.postimg.org/lzlqj7vt1/output_yl_NF5_L.gif

EDIT: the other flask (Experiment #1) shows absolutely no signs of "vanishing water", but the water has completely changed and now it's filled with tiny brown dots floating everywhere... They can be anything... maybe iron from the plates, maybe grease from the machines used to cut and mould the plaques... maybe remains of the glue that the anti-scratches stickers had... or even fungus. I'm certainly more enthusiast about the "experiment 2" than i am about the "experiment 1", which I take it as a failure... but I found these brown dots interesting:

http://s30.postimg.org/68az82x7l/12233379_10208131247586731_2020405613_n.jpg

"interesting" does not mean "useful" or "worthy", but they are a curiosity for me. I can't speculate about what is it, but I don't really think it is something of any worth (maybe it is grease or glue).

theFool
11-10-2015, 01:11 PM
A question I have. TheFool posted a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDGqya_jcuc

Is anyone able to explain why the results of the "Nav's device" and the results of the "HHO device" are so different when the "device" itself is not specially very different?????
I think the reason the device of the video produces more bubbles is because he uses larger electrode area and also the gases seem to concentrate in the cylindrical electrodes. I don't see other big differences.

zoas23
11-10-2015, 07:16 PM
I think the reason the device of the video produces more bubbles is because he uses larger electrode area and also the gases seem to concentrate in the cylindrical electrodes. I don't see other big differences.

Interesting. So maybe it makes sense to improve Nav's original device and increase the area.

As for my promised reports:

16:30 pm day 2: the bottle of "experiment 2" looks identical to the previous photo, no more water "vanished", if I shoot a photo it would look identical.

Kiorionis
11-10-2015, 09:32 PM
Interesting. So maybe it makes sense to improve Nav's original device and increase the area.

Wouldn't it make more sense to adjust the other variables first (amount of water, length of time, digestion vessels and methods of digestion, types of batteries, etc), rather than the original device?

Nav's apparatus was apparently enough to produce something, so I don't see why that's the first thing that needs to be changed in your attempts...

zoas23
11-10-2015, 10:09 PM
Wouldn't it make more sense to adjust the other variables first (amount of water, length of time, digestion vessels and methods of digestion, types of batteries, etc), rather than the original device?

Nav's apparatus was apparently enough to produce something, so I don't see why that's the first thing that needs to be changed in your attempts...

My experience watching the process with the naked eye has been that the "action" happens between the plaques during the preparation of the water.
I've also experienced that a long amount of time creates "nothing", whilst 5 minutes creates something that gets closer to what Nav described.

I think that increasing the surface in which there is a contact between the water and the gap that divides the plaques makes sense... it is still "Nav's device", it's simply the same thing with an increased area of contact.

I am, of course, open to test ANTHING and adjust all the possible variables.

This is just my "round #1".... I still have done nothing related to testing the corrosive nature of this water (which was described by Nav).

Since I don't have Nav helping, I think the best idea is to advance with "little steps" and get close to a "reverse engineering"... that's why my "round #1" ONLY included water and nothing else (silver, etc).

The "alternative design" can produce three different results:
-It can be better.
-It can produce the same result.
-It can be worst.

Since the cost and effort of doing it is minimum, I thought that it was worth to give it a shot.

My other idea would involve to get my super magical wands and swords and invoke the visible and audible presence of Nav in my living room :p

Or recite an alternate version of the Psalm 22: "My Nav, my Nav, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish?" ;)

... but I will do a few more tests because I believe that such thing makes more sense.

Do you have any suggestion, Kiorionis? I'm all ears... and I am simply trying to reproduce in the "touchable world" something that I only know, just like everyone else here, from a verbal description that was very poetic, but not exactly quite complete when it comes to technical details.

Dendritic Xylem
11-11-2015, 02:58 AM
Zoas, I think the reason you saw some water evaporate is because the glass on glass joint isn't normally a perfect seal. But once some water condensed near the joint it flowed into it via capillary action, effectively sealing it. I replicated the experiment as nav explained except I used a glass on glass joint sealed with bees wax. It has been 2-3 days and the water looks exactly the same as it did in the beginning. Perfectly clear, and of the same volume. I normally wouldn't have done such an experiment...but I already had the tools/supplies and it took very little time to set up. I used a digital thermostat that controls to the 1/10th of a degree...distilled water and a 12v car battery.


So far, it's looking like nav was pulling our chain. But I would love for him to come back and prove me wrong...

Kiorionis
11-11-2015, 03:04 AM
Sounds reasonable then :)


Do you have any suggestion, Kiorionis?

From my understanding, nav's process revolves around principles of electricity, especially the idea of using the water as a capacitor before congealing it with digestion (interestingly enough, capacitors used to be called condensors).

But in my mind, it seems similar to the way blood coagulates over an open wound. The parts which contact the air coagulates first not only to keep the blood from going out, but the air from going in. That way everything beneath it can mature appropriately...

Maybe it's the same for electrified water? But I haven't tried the process. Just my thoughts :)

zoas23
11-11-2015, 05:20 AM
Zoas, I think the reason you saw some water evaporate is because the glass on glass joint isn't normally a perfect seal. But once some water condensed near the joint it flowed into it via capillary action, effectively sealing it. I replicated the experiment as nav explained except I used a glass on glass joint sealed with bees wax. It has been 2-3 days and the water looks exactly the same as it did in the beginning. Perfectly clear, and of the same volume. I normally wouldn't have done such an experiment...but I already had the tools/supplies and it took very little time to set up. I used a digital thermostat that controls to the 1/10th of a degree...distilled water and a 12v car battery.


So far, it's looking like nav was pulling our chain. But I would love for him to come back and prove me wrong...

You can be right, but I think that almost 1/4 liter of water evaporated in 12 hours is a little bit "too much"... and this flask is not perfectly hermetic but it's the kind of flask that you can put upside down for a long time on a paper and the paper will not show a single drop of water on it (I actually did such thing before the experiment).

On the other hand, the flask of the "failed" experiment shows no "missing water".


This is just my "round 1"... I will do it again a few more times... and I will have other cautions I did not have:
-I did not weight the flasks... the next time I will.
-I will also store some in a flask with a plastic seal and see if it actually "eats" it or not.
-I will test if it has any kind of corrosive effect.

I do not feel I am "ready" to jump to conclusions and I am mostly "watching" and "analysing"... it's too "early" for me to state a conclusion on this subject.

As an off topic comment related to evaporation:

Back in 2012 a person told me that if I mixed Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) with salt, I was going to get "square crystals". I was told about it because I have some sort of "fetish" for square crystals and a small collection of different crystals, stones and metals that naturally grow as squares.

So I did it to get those square crystals (for decoration, absolutely unrelated to "alchemy")... I mixed pure Hydrogen peroxide with salt (I am talking about average salt). I left the mix in a flask.

I waited for a year and nothing had evaporated.

I placed it on top of a heater during the whole of a winter and an autumn (6 months)... no evaporation either. I also left it on a hot plate with a temperature of some 80C for several days... it didn't evaporate at all.

The flask I used is not specially good to accelerate evaporation, but I still have this mix of H2O2 + salt in this flask since 2012... I can't understand why it does not evaporate.

http://s12.postimg.org/ha8jylf65/12226770_10208135654056890_1654897811_n_1.jpg

This is just an off topic comment and not truly related to alchemy.

EDIT: Nav wrote:


9v is a good voltage to create Ozone, so is a 12v alarm battery, a motorcycle battery etc etc. Ozone is released in water once you reach 1.51 volts, anything above that is good. The battery you saw in the picture is a rechargable cold cathode battery of 7.2v.
In releases 7.2v at an higher current than a 9v square battery but that is because I prefer to create Ozone much quicker when I'm using water out of a stream. The reason being stream water loses its O3 very quickly compared to double distilled, double distilled however is slow to release O3 but keeps it for longer, up to 3 hours.
My experience was to have DD water, stream and spring water at hand, spring water is cheap from any shop and stream water from any clean stream is free. When you produce Ozone in a container always allow the hydrogen gas to escape upwards, don't allow it to build up in the top of the container. It is a risk to do so. If you look at my container, the lid is designed to hold the plates in place not to seal the container. Because I was producing Ozone for months this design suited me the best.
If I were you I would study for a while on the web how to produce Ozone using electrolysis, you will benefit greatly by doing so.

And he also wrote:

This is my Ozone producer which I built a while back, these are larger plates than I explained that allow me to produce Ozone very quickly and the battery pack is high current, because the spacing between the plates is only 1mm it allows me to use distilled water and I still get current transfer and Ozone, I noticed one of the forum members said this was impossible. That is an error on their part. The plates are seperated by plastic nuts and bolts with washers inbetween.
The other picture are the melonoma or rather where they used to be on my arm.
I also read one of the members refering to the white oil as Oxygen, it is no longer Oxygen in my opinion, 50ml of it weighs about half a Kilogramme, it ain't no Oxygen I can assure you. During the evaporation and distilling it smells like Chlorine for a while then it loses its odour until you let it eat metals then the odours return. When it attacks silver and dissolves it, you can smell a bad eggs until it eats the vapours from the reaction then there is no smell again. When you give it silver filings, if you drop them on the top of it little by little they just dissolve into it and its swells up and becomes buttery. The swelling that takes place is larger than the silver that you put in though.
I'm no scientist, but what i've seen isn't normal and I know it isn't regardless of the ridicule i've had on here and all I ask is for people to do what I have done then make a decision regarding this. There is no point bickering and pointing fingers at me until you have a look at the material for yourselves. So what i'm going to do is make a video of the Materia, show you the weight on my electronic scales and show it eating the silver. I cannot be fairer than that. I'll also make a video of the Ozone white water being produced when its at its most volatile.

And you wrote:

...distilled water and a 12v car battery.

I can assume 2 things about Nav:
a) That he is a prankster and created this elaborate hoax just to laugh... but it seems unlikely, because when I requested him to show me the device he created, he had no problems in showing the device... and he also showed the melanoma cancer... and a "google search" using the images gives no results for any of his images (which means that it is unlikely that he has borrowed them from the internet, unless he borrowed them from a private forum or from any web that requires a password to see the images). I think this is too elaborate as to be a "hoax".
b) that he was being honest... but got offended very easily about a few comments that criticized his claims.

I believe that "b" is the case. Such thing doesn't mean that this is the "Prima Materia", that this is going to create gold, etc (Nav himself could not even demonstrate such thing to himself and those were mostly "speculations" he had). The only things he stated that he had effectively demonstrated to himself are:
-That the water "vanishes", but loses no weight.
-That it is corrosive.
-That is dissolves silver and glue.
-That it creates a white "oil".

When he suggested me sources of electricity, he said: "9v is a good voltage to create Ozone, so is a 12v alarm battery, a motorcycle battery etc etc. Ozone is released in water once you reach 1.51 volts, anything above that is good. The battery you saw in the picture is a rechargable cold cathode battery of 7.2v."

A google search allowed me to investigate the differences.
The source of electricity that Nav used gives 7.2 Volts and 1 or 2 Amperes.
The source of electricity that you used gives 12 Volts and something between 200 to 1,000 Amperes (I've seen that the car batteries run within this range of Amperes, depending on the model of the battery).

I've seen that TIME makes a big difference (i.e, that 5 minutes is better than 1 or 2 hours).

Could it be that your source of energy has an amount of amperes that is way too high for this experiment?

Again, I am trying to do some sort of "reverse engineering" and understand what Nav was doing. It is true that he suggested "a motorcycle battery" among other sources of energy... but I have no evidence that he ever used a motorcycle battery, according to his words and images, he used these batteries that will only give 1 or 2 amps... and according to his words, it's quite obvious that this "device" was a recent discovery for him. So it is likely that he was suggesting things that he had not tested (i.e, sources of energy with a high amperage).

If TIME is a factor... and TEMPERATURE is a factor too (according to Nav, I have not tested such thing)... I think it's safe to assume that AMPERAGE is a factor too.
If his "experiment" only works under very specific conditions (time, temperature, etc)... I'd say that such a HUGE difference in the amperage may have "spoiled" the whole thing (if we assume that Nav was being honest).


__________________________________________________ _____________________

EDIT #2 about my "off topic concerns":

I've asked about this issue to the chemist I am talking to... I am enjoying the conversations with him a lot.
It is funny for me that he doesn't "believe" in alchemy at all, but he does not distrust at all the effects that Nav described and witnessed (he didn't give me an opinion about the "speculations" of Nav or the effects that he claimed that his "Prima Materia" could also have, but he could not test -i.e, that it can produce gold, etc). I've only discussed with him what Nav has been able to do, including the cure of his cancer.
Then again, he thinks that Nav's interpretation of the events is wrong from a chemical point of view and whilst he believes that Nav was telling the truth, he also believes that his chemical explanation is wrong and that the right chemical explanation is different, but has the same practical effects or consequences.

As for the "mystery" of my mix that never evaporated... he told me:


Hydrogen peroxide is hardly volatile and together with salt (NaCl) it would even try to keep more moisture than it releases.

H2O2 and NaCl would give a very hygroscopic and stable mix that won't evaporate on its own.

Extra note: hydrogen peroxide has a tendency to explode at higher temperatures (near its boiling point, 150C), definatly if disturbed, be carefull!

And yes, NaCl crystals are square if allowed to form bigger crystals (the ones you started from are broken down for ease of use). I got a couple of these aswell as its easy chemistry with no real danger, good for a first year chem course. Note that if you filtrate your NaCl solution you more easely form bigger crystals (less impurity's which start the start the crystal forming)

I used to distrust orthodox chemists, but this person showed me how enjoyable it can be to have a conversation with someone who has an absolutely different point of view when both parts aren't trying to "win" as if it was a debate, but simply exchanging ideas and points of view about different issues. I even told him about my suggestion to Dev, he liked the idea, but he didn't want to be the chemist who participates in the podcast (he believes that such thing may ruin his career or reputation, so he does not want to take any risk in that sense)... but I still think that any chemist who is not "grumpy" about alchemy talking to a member of this forum can be an amazing podcast.

I've also discussed with him about my idea of a "sandwich device" with some 8 or 10 plaques and he thought that it was probably going to improve the effects.

I know I am getting "off topic", but I have always had good experiences with "Lateral thinking" and for some reason "Nav's water" reminded me of this "water that never evaporates"... Sometimes an absolutely unrelated issue can help to understand another issue, at least such thing works well for me.

_____________________________________

EDIT #3:

11:55 am day 3:
I've just poured some water from the blue flask into a glass bowl and I threw a coin inside it (in an unsealed bowl). This specific coin is mostly an amalgam of many metals, but it's mostly Nickel.
Effects:
-The coin showed no immediate signs of corrosion.
-After some 10 seconds the coin got completely covered with a layer of small bubbles. The bubbles somehow "emerged" from the coin, they were not there for the first seconds... as if the coin was acting like a "magnet" for the bubbles.
-I decided to touch the water with my hands... it is definitely NOT corrosive for the skin, at least not right now. It is however true that it feels like "oil" and not really like "normal water"... It feels closer to "Johnson's Baby Oil" than to water. It would be interesting for me to get a densimeter (the one I had got broken) and test if the density has changed... the sense of touch can be tricky and it's not possible to completely trust it, but a densimeter may show if there is any difference between "Nav's water" and "normal distilled water" when it comes to density.

-The water of the experiment #2 definitely smells like a soft chlorine.
-Te water of the experiment #1 (the "failed" one) smells like a public toilet. I do not discard the chances of a contamination with bacterias in the "experiment #1", then again, the warm temperature provides the perfect breeding ground for bacteria.

I think I am ready to give my results about the "round 1":
-Water vanished: yes
-Became like an oil: yes
-The color changed to white: no
-It is corrosive: It does not seem to be corrosive on the third day.

I think I got close to SOME of the results of Nav, whilst other results didn't happen... but my intention is to keep on trying.

horticult
11-11-2015, 04:26 PM
- weigh that smaller water
- there IS a BIG difference exactly in these "electrolyses", between tap water, really distilled water, or "distilled" water /4 cars etc, which is not distilled but osmosis or whatever/ - we must know exactly, which water Nav used.
- Ohm

Dendritic Xylem
11-11-2015, 06:29 PM
Zoas, the current (amps) is dictated not only by the battery size, but also by the plate distance and electrolyte content of the water.
I guarantee that your setup and navs and mine are flowing much less than 1 amp. That's why very few bubbles formed in any of the setups.
Check it with an ammeter if you don't believe me. This isn't rocket science.
Just because your battery has a certain amp/hour rating, doesn't mean that's what's flowing between the plates.
Do you have any idea how silly it is to think that my circuit was flowing "200 to 1,000 Amperes" ?!?!?!

Seriously though, I hope you succeed and document your results. I'm not just a close-minded skeptic...otherwise I never would have tried the experiment.
I'm going to leave the flask in digestion for another week before I give up on it.

zoas23
11-11-2015, 09:19 PM
Zoas, the current (amps) is dictated not only by the battery size, but also by the plate distance and electrolyte content of the water.
I guarantee that your setup and navs and mine are flowing much less than 1 amp. That's why very few bubbles formed in any of the setups.
Check it with an ammeter if you don't believe me. This isn't rocket science.
Just because your battery has a certain amp/hour rating, doesn't mean that's what's flowing between the plates.
Do you have any idea how silly it is to think that my circuit was flowing "200 to 1,000 Amperes" ?!?!?!

Seriously though, I hope you succeed and document your results. I'm not just a close-minded skeptic...otherwise I never would have tried the experiment.
I'm going to leave the flask in digestion for another week before I give up on it.

No, I have no idea of how silly is to think that your circuit was flowing 200 to 1,000 amperes.
I am not very good with physics, specially not with electricity.
But if you state that the idea is silly, then I'll trust you.

There's a lot of things I do not understand at all here... I don't know why the "magic" numbers of 5 minutes, 37C and 3 days are relevant here and why "2 hours", "90C" and "3 years" are not.
This isn't rocket science, it is simply a process that I honestly do not understand and I am doing an effort trying to understand it.

I am trying to understand which ones are all the "factors" (time, temperature, time of digestion, surface of the plaques, distance between the plaques -Nav claimed that he used 3mm and 1 mm-, etc).

I shared my procedures and results in the most complete way that was possible for me as to allow others to check what I'm doing and find errors, mistakes, ideas, etc.

As a side note, the only person who taught me about electricity was my professor at high school when I was 16. She was the sister of a very famous local gay comedian... and spent most of the time in class mocking me and comparing me with his brother, whom she disliked. So I did not learn much at that class because it was really a torture.

What I said is simply a comment that comes from someone who does not understand a lot of things about how electricity works and is trying to figure out which ones are all the factors here.
I thought about "amperage". You have explained that it's not a factor worth considering and that a car battery will flow the same amperage in this device than a battery designed for a small toy. I had no idea about it.

Let's avoid words like "silly", "stupid", etc... I was talking about the pleasant conversations I'm having with this chemist. They are pleasant because there is a context of respect, which allows a high amperage of ideas to flow. I don't know much about electricity, but I figured out that words like "silly" reduce the amperage of the communication a lot. Let's be kind. We are both doing or trying to do something that none of us completely understands... so if one of us knows about an issue more than the other one, it is a good thing to correct the mistakes of the other one in a kind way.

Dendritic Xylem
11-11-2015, 10:30 PM
I thought about "amperage". You have explained that it's not a factor worth considering and that a car battery will flow the same amperage in this device than a battery designed for a small toy. I had no idea about it.

I never said that. Please go re-read my post. If you have enough electrolyte from mineral waters or low quality plates leaching, then a large battery may flow more current than a tiny button battery. But for distilled water and such little current flow...similar voltage batteries of the sizes we're using will effectively act the same. But I don't know how important the current flow is to the experiment because nav never made that clear.



Let's avoid words like "silly", "stupid", etc... I was talking about the pleasant conversations I'm having with this chemist. They are pleasant because there is a context of respect, which allows a high amperage of ideas to flow. I don't know much about electricity, but I figured out that words like "silly" reduce the amperage of the communication a lot. Let's be kind. We are both doing or trying to do something that none of us completely understands... so if one of us knows about an issue more than the other one, it is a good thing to correct the mistakes of the other one in a kind way.

You were the one who tried to debate my electrical setup, even though you admittedly "don't know much about electricity".
I never called you "stupid"...and I shouldn't have called you "silly"...my apologies.

Good luck.

zoas23
11-11-2015, 11:19 PM
I never said that. Please go re-read my post. If you have enough electrolyte from mineral waters or low quality plates leaching, then a large battery may flow more current than a tiny button battery. But for distilled water and such little current flow...similar voltage batteries of the sizes we're using will effectively act the same. But I don't know how important the current flow is to the experiment because nav never made that clear.




You were the one who tried to debate my electrical setup, even though you admittedly "don't know much about electricity".
I never called you "stupid"...and I shouldn't have called you "silly"...my apologies.

Good luck.

Just to be clear:
I was not discussing your set up. I am completely open to say that I do not understand a lot of very basic laws of electricity. You seem to be more skilled than me in that area. Yes, I don't know much about electricity... I am trying to understand and a lot of things I say can be wrong and it's OK to correct me, it actually helps me to learn and understand better what is going on with this experiment we are both doing.

Again, I was simply making a list of factors to consider:
-Time of preparation of the water.
-Temperature of the water.
-Digestion method.
-Volts.
-Amperage.
-Surface of the metal plaques.
-Etc.

It is quite clear that my experience and your experience differ from Nav's experience. My results confirmed for me SOME of the ideas that Nav expressed, whilst other of his statements clearly didn't happen.

So I was following your relate of your experience and when I read "car battery" I thought: "Oh! A Car Battery and a Battery designed for toys are very different!", so I SPECULATED: "could it be that such thing made a difference?".

You have explained why my way of reasoning has a mistake... that is clearly related to my lack of knowledge about electricity (I have no problem with accepting that I don't understand a lot of things about electricity... I am not here to pretend that I am an "expert", I am actually the opposite when it comes to electricity).

I think it will be interesting if we go on with our conversation accepting that we all have weak areas and strong areas in our knowledge... and that it is right to correct a wrong statement explaining where is the mistake. I accept that I stated something that is wrong and you have explained why.

I mean, that's the point of this forum... If we all have patience and we don't try to "win" as if it was a debate, then we all "win", which is better.

Apologies accepted! I thank you for correcting my mistake, your knowledge is certainly useful for me to understand better this procedure we are both working with.

Dendritic Xylem
11-12-2015, 03:42 AM
I mean, that's the point of this forum... If we all have patience and we don't try to "win" as if it was a debate, then we all "win", which is better.

Agreed



I'm curious, did you taste the water which obtained an oily consistency?

zoas23
11-12-2015, 05:18 AM
Agreed
I'm curious, did you taste the water which obtained an oily consistency?

Noooooo!
I still don't understand a lot of the principles behind this experiment and I have no idea of what I have in that flask. What if it is H2O2? (I'm giving a random example).

I believe it's 99% likely that it would be safe to taste it. There's still a 1% of chances that it can be poisonous or dangerous. I don't play Russian Roulette.

I think it was Dev the one who wrote it recently: never use yourself as a "guinea pig" for your experiments.

Unless you are doing something that you are 100% sure that is safe (and being 100% sure involves something more than simply "assuming" that it is safe), never consume, drink or eat anything that you created at the lab, unless you have evidence that shows you that it's safe.

I do suggest the same for you. Do not drink that liquid, it is very likely that it's safe... but what if it ends up giving you a health problem or even killing you?

I've taken the risk of smelling it and touching it, but that's the further I will go, unless someone (or myself) comes up with a reliable evidence that shows that it is safe to taste it.

"Curiosity killed the cat". :)

JDP
11-12-2015, 10:13 AM
Noooooo!
I still don't understand a lot of the principles behind this experiment and I have no idea of what I have in that flask. What if it is H2O2? (I'm giving a random example).

I believe it's 99% likely that it would be safe to taste it. There's still a 1% of chances that it can be poisonous or dangerous. I don't play Russian Roulette.

I think it was Dev the one who wrote it recently: never use yourself as a "guinea pig" for your experiments.

Unless you are doing something that you are 100% sure that is safe (and being 100% sure involves something more than simply "assuming" that it is safe), never consume, drink or eat anything that you created at the lab, unless you have evidence that shows you that it's safe.

I do suggest the same for you. Do not drink that liquid, it is very likely that it's safe... but what if it ends up giving you a health problem or even killing you?

I've taken the risk of smelling it and touching it, but that's the further I will go, unless someone (or myself) comes up with a reliable evidence that shows that it is safe to taste it.

"Curiosity killed the cat". :)

It was me who made the "guinea pig" remark, and with good reason. People have killed themselves by ingesting their own concoctions thinking that they had really discovered some very powerful "elixir" that would grant them health and/or youth. And I am not just talking about the many ancient Chinese seekers after the Elixir who ended up in an early grave by using themselves as "guinea pigs" for tests. Even in our times there's still people doing this kind of "daredevil alchemy".

crestind
11-12-2015, 08:11 PM
The water loss is certainly interesting... I'm not sure I would attribute that to evaporation.

Yes, the 200-1,000 amperes is insane lol... take it from someone who did not pay attention in physics class and ended up painfully relearning the basics with one of the experiments on this site. The amp rating on a battery only dictates the maximum possible current. It doesn't mean if you stick the battery in a circuit it automatically delivers that many amps. Otherwise if it were true, all batteries would discharge within minutes and lead acid batteries would probably boil over or blow up or something, I don't know. The battery's amp rating is dictated by internal resistance (influenced by the design of the battery).
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/rising_internal_resistance This site helped me a lot.

Car batteries can deliver that much in theory but only briefly, the amount of time needed for the starter to get the engine going. Any longer and you'll have a literal meltdown of wires from the heat generated. Get a simple multimeter and it will tell you how many amps you're running. If it's too many, get a clamp ammeter. Realistically due to the lack of bubbles I'd say probably 0.05 amps or so.

voltage = current * resistance
Your voltage is obviously fixed due to the battery at 12 volts. That leaves the resistance and current variables. Your resistance is dictated by the design of the electrolysis setup - size of plates (large plates equals more surface area for reaction), distance of plates (closer means less resistance due to less water between plates), temperature (have to look it up), concentration of electrolytes in the water (more electrolytes more conductive). and other factors. So unless you change the design, this is also set. Leaving the current. You might be able to use the ohmmeter function on a multimeter to determine the resistance of your setup and then calculate the current that way.

A few things... OP stated to use double distilled water or water from a clean stream, but he did not specify what type he used. These are obviously very different, even if the stream is "clean".

Very interesting results nonethless, and thank you for sharing. Meanwhile, where is nav with his video? Maybe nav = CIA and was just messing with us lol.


My thoughts as to what is happening here... "tension". From what I see there are only two (???) fundamental forces in the universe and no matter what we do we are working with these two. All atoms have electrons flying around them (so they say) and magnetic moments and whatnot. Magnetic or electrostatic, in this case the latter. Perhaps altering the water somehow by prolonged exposure. Magnets allegedly alter water somehow to create a grease. Perhaps this is the "electrostatic" version of it. After all, it seems like not much current is flowing. Along the lines of quartz and piezoelectricity. No current, but it's creating voltage. Joe Cellesque? I also read a claim online that by running water through a large mass of clean quartz sand, this could "restructure" the water somehow.

zoas23
11-12-2015, 08:22 PM
The water loss is certainly interesting... I'm not sure I would attribute that to evaporation.

Yes, the 200-1,000 amperes is insane lol... take it from someone who did not pay attention in physics class and ended up painfully relearning the basics with one of the experiments on this site. The amp rating on a battery only dictates the maximum possible current. It doesn't mean if you stick the battery in a circuit it automatically delivers that many amps. Otherwise if it were true, all batteries would discharge within minutes and lead acid batteries would probably boil over or blow up or something, I don't know. The battery's amp rating is dictated by internal resistance (influenced by the design of the battery).
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/rising_internal_resistance This site helped me a lot.

Car batteries can deliver that much in theory but only briefly, the amount of time needed for the starter to get the engine going. Any longer and you'll have a literal meltdown of wires from the heat generated. Get a simple multimeter and it will tell you how many amps you're running. If it's too many, get a clamp ammeter. Realistically due to the lack of bubbles I'd say probably 0.05 amps or so.

voltage = current * resistance
Your voltage is obviously fixed due to the battery at 12 volts. That leaves the resistance and current variables. Your resistance is dictated by the design of the electrolysis setup - size of plates (large plates equals more surface area for reaction), distance of plates (closer means less resistance due to less water between plates), temperature (have to look it up), concentration of electrolytes in the water (more electrolytes more conductive). and other factors. So unless you change the design, this is also set. Leaving the current. You might be able to use the ohmmeter function on a multimeter to determine the resistance of your setup and then calculate the current that way.

A few things... OP stated to use double distilled water or water from a clean stream, but he did not specify what type he used. These are obviously very different, even if the stream is "clean".

Very interesting results nonethless, and thank you for sharing. Meanwhile, where is nav with his video? Maybe nav = CIA and was just messing with us lol.


My thoughts as to what is happening here... "tension". From what I see there are only two (???) fundamental forces in the universe and no matter what we do we are working with these two. All atoms have electrons flying around them (so they say) and magnetic moments and whatnot. Magnetic or electrostatic, in this case the latter. Perhaps altering the water somehow by prolonged exposure. Magnets allegedly alter water somehow to create a grease. Perhaps this is the "electrostatic" version of it. After all, it seems like not much current is flowing. Along the lines of quartz and piezoelectricity. No current, but it's creating voltage. Joe Cellesque? I also read a claim online that by running water through a large mass of clean quartz sand, this could "restructure" the water somehow.

Thanks for your help with electricity.
Something else I have also confirmed about what Nav said is that something was going to go on for "3 days" and then stop.
That's what I saw: action for 3 days... and now it is "stable"... and it doesn't keep on "vanishing" or "changing" in any possible way.

I have made a .doc with all the posts by Nav on the subject.
He stated that he used:
-Double Distilled water from "spring water" and conventional "car water" (commercial distilled water).
-A current of very few volts (he was talking about less than 2 volts for the first water... and 7.2 volts for the seconds water.
-2 different devices: one with a small area and the plaques 3mm away from each other for the first water... and another one (which he pictured) with 1mm and larger plaques.

Dendritic Xylem
11-14-2015, 11:47 AM
Noooooo!
I still don't understand a lot of the principles behind this experiment and I have no idea of what I have in that flask. What if it is H2O2? (I'm giving a random example).

I believe it's 99% likely that it would be safe to taste it. There's still a 1% of chances that it can be poisonous or dangerous. I don't play Russian Roulette.

I think it was Dev the one who wrote it recently: never use yourself as a "guinea pig" for your experiments.

Unless you are doing something that you are 100% sure that is safe (and being 100% sure involves something more than simply "assuming" that it is safe), never consume, drink or eat anything that you created at the lab, unless you have evidence that shows you that it's safe.

I do suggest the same for you. Do not drink that liquid, it is very likely that it's safe... but what if it ends up giving you a health problem or even killing you?

I've taken the risk of smelling it and touching it, but that's the further I will go, unless someone (or myself) comes up with a reliable evidence that shows that it is safe to taste it.

"Curiosity killed the cat". :)


Of course you shouldn't eat anything which could potentially be toxic.
But this is a flask of distilled water, is it not? Maybe a small amount of h2o2...ozone?
The bottles of 3% h2o2 that are sold everywhere say you can use it as mouthwash.
I have consumed 15 drops of 30% h2o2 in a glass of water daily for weeks on end.
There were numerous health benefits. Because I researched it before doing it.
People do the same with ozonated water, check it out.
I just meant to put a drop on the tongue and spit it out...not drink the flask.
I guess you could worry about deadly bacteria colonizing the water.
Or mind melting spiritus mundi juice.

zoas23
11-14-2015, 10:45 PM
Of course you shouldn't eat anything which could potentially be toxic.
But this is a flask of distilled water, is it not? Maybe a small amount of h2o2...ozone?
The bottles of 3% h2o2 that are sold everywhere say you can use it as mouthwash.
I have consumed 15 drops of 30% h2o2 in a glass of water daily for weeks on end.
There were numerous health benefits. Because I researched it before doing it.
People do the same with ozonated water, check it out.
I just meant to put a drop on the tongue and spit it out...not drink the flask.
I guess you could worry about deadly bacteria colonizing the water.
Or mind melting spiritus mundi juice.

My most important alchemical achievement: the chemical wedding that created the universal stone. Here's the image of that experiment:

http://s7.postimg.org/edfw6k6wr/10301584_10203778462449823_1345919730678027774_n.j pg

When it comes to alchemy, she ONLY asked one thing from me:
"Never do anything that may kill you, because I need you alive".

I won't do anything that goes against that promise. I've made a pact with her, I'm not going to break it... and I have this nice oily substance, but I have no idea of what it is.

I'm not against creating "products" for consumption and I've done it several times, you did it too of course... but my rule is that I won't consume ANYTHING unless I know it's 100% safe.

I try to stay aware of my priorities when it comes to alchemy. This girl is the priority #1, the most sacred stone.

Again, that's my policy... we all have different ways to play "the game", but I follow those rules.

EDIT: I declare my round #1 finished. Some things stated by Nav happened, some others didn't.
I will have a "round #2", but changing the device.... This time I'll use a bigger surface and 1mm distance between the plaques instead of 3mm...
(Yes, I am stubborn).

Nibiru
11-15-2015, 04:07 AM
Hi everyone :) I've only read bits and pieces of this thread but I do have a couple of suggestions for these experiments for anyone willing to listen, since this seems to be a popular discussion topic at the moment.. I'll admit that I've never tried the particular method that Nav suggested, though I can see a relation to nature in a way with what he's said.. Keep in mind the idea of quantum entanglement, observer effect, will-power, faith, and belief when working these type of methods. Current location, personal health and mind-state, as well as astrological factors may also play a role in the outcome. IMO, It's not so much about finding someone else's recipe as it is understanding the natural principles and utalizing that wisdom in the hopes of eventually creating/forming your own path to a Stone/Truth or whatever it may be that you/we seek through our efforts. Remember the whole above/below, within/without idea when trying to create along these lines or lack there of. What works for one, may not potentially work for another. It may also help to constantly stay aware that our particular projects should/could contain at least some aspect of our unique selves that we are idealy attempting to evolve, and this is how we actually get somewhere with our practice IMO.. As we begin to grow, so should our ability to create better or more noble forms of 'medicine'. As we evolve through our works, our works should evolve with us. Something akin to a reverse Plinko game in a way, a cycle of cooperative improvement of virtue. Varying paths can be quite subjective to the individual. :)

Zoas, from what I see in your images, I would try using less water when adding to the bottle for circulation. Maybe try to Invision your flask for circulation in a manner similar to the Earth, water bodies, and its surrounding atmosphere all in-closed with the prior prepared material (charged water in this case, it seems).. Except keep in mind here that you're working from Genesis, so to speak. Meaning that there is
only water and atmosphere and hopefully a valid catalyst in this case. IMO the Earth can form on its own when the other elements and principles of Nature/Creation are in balance along with Time of course..

I may try something similar to this soon and when/if I do I'll let you know of my results as well... Good luck and best wishes to everyone :)

zoas23
11-15-2015, 06:48 AM
Zoas, from what I see in your images, I would try using less water when adding to the bottle for circulation. Maybe try to Invision your flask for circulation in a manner similar to the Earth, water bodies, and its surrounding atmosphere all in-closed with the prior prepared material (charged water in this case, it seems).. Except keep in mind here that you're working from Genesis, so to speak. Meaning that there is only water and atmosphere and hopefully a valid catalyst in this case. IMO the Earth can form on its own when the other elements and principles of Nature/Creation are in balance along with Time of course..
I may try something similar to this soon and when/if I do I'll let you know of my results as well... Good luck and best wishes to everyone :)

Thank you!
I will change a lot of things for my "round #2", even the device itself and other factors.
When it comes to alchemy, I have NEVER had a "good result" the first time I tried to do something... it always took me several attempts to achieve something.
But I'd say that the results of the "round #1" went further than I expected for a "first attempt".
I've also learnt a lot from my observations and from different comments expressed on this thread (even about how electricity and batteries actually work).

Rueb
11-16-2015, 03:38 AM
37C ...
half life of a few minutes ...
oxides ...

anyone ever thought about our digestive tract? and moreover breathing itself ...
the temperature ...
digesting food is PRIMARILY oxidizing (burning) it ... (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/nutrient-intake-nutrient-storage-and-nutrient-oxidation.html/
food or rather "energy" in form of calories is actually absorbed within minutes and mostly useless within a day ... (excretion...)

... who was that highly proclaimed alchemist that was asked to show his king the subject matter ...
... he followed up showing his king a pile of shit ...



from wiki: Electron Acceptor

Examples of electron acceptors include oxygen, nitrate, iron (III) = rust, manganese (IV), sulfate, carbon dioxide ...

In biology, a terminal electron acceptor is a compound that receives or accepts an electron during cellular respiration or photosynthesis. All organisms obtain energy by transferring electrons from an electron donor to an electron acceptor. During this process (electron transport chain) the electron acceptor is reduced and the electron donor is oxidized.


... thats why you eat to get the one AND breath to get the other ...


... also from wiki:
Common oxidizing agents (O-atom transfer agents)

Ozone (O3)
Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) and other inorganic peroxides
Fluorine (F2), chlorine (Cl2), and other halogens
Nitric acid (HNO3) and nitrate compounds
Sulfuric acid (H2SO4)
Peroxydisulfuric acid (H2S2O8)
Peroxymonosulfuric acid (H2SO5)
Chlorite, chlorate, perchlorate, and other analogous halogen compounds
Hypochlorite and other hypohalite compounds, including household bleach (NaClO)
Hexavalent chromium compounds such as chromic and dichromic acids and chromium trioxide, pyridinium chlorochromate (PCC), and chromate/dichromate compounds
Permanganate compounds such as potassium permanganate
Sodium perborate
Nitrous oxide (N2O)
Potassium nitrate (KNO3), the oxidizer in black powder



Besides all that also from wiki:
The key process of electrolysis is the interchange of atoms and ions by the removal or addition of electrons from the external circuit.

Electrolysis is a electrochemical redox reaction!!!

... oh what again is going onhttp://www.ozoneservices.com/glossary/o/oxidationreductionreaction.htm

zoas23
11-16-2015, 08:52 AM
3
... who was that highly proclaimed alchemist that was asked to show his king the subject matter ...
... he followed up showing his king a pile of shit ...

(...)
Common oxidizing agents (O-atom transfer agents)

Ozone (O3)
Potassium nitrate (KNO3), the oxidizer in black powder


You did me a GREAT favor with this post.
I was investigating yesterday about how to convert Potassium Carbonate to Potassium Nitrate (mostly because someone from this forum once told me to investigate different ways of making the polar Potassium Carbonate turn into a non-polar substance).

I have been reading about different methods which involve shit, pee, dew, copper, long list of etceteras...

During my "round #2" of this experiment I will use several flasks to test different things, but I am curious about if this experiment may turn Potassium Carbonate into Potassium Nitrate. If it does, I will feel VERY happy.

Rueb
11-19-2015, 10:07 PM
Is Ozone Harmful Or Not?
http://inspiredliving.com/airpurifiers/ozonemisconception.htm

from the link:
Ozone is found naturally in many places, usually ones that humans seek out because they enjoy the way they feel when they're in this kind of environment. Higher than average concentrations are found at the seashore, at waterfalls and in mountain forests. That sweet, bleachy smell you detect in the air after a thunderstorm is actually ozone. Remember the smell of sheets fresh off the line? That's ozone. Wherever sunlight, water and wind get together, you will find plenty of ozone, and, where feasible, plenty of people who are eager to soak it up! Yes, there is a physiological reason why people feel better at the beach, around waterfalls and in the mountains. Ozone is a large factor, as are beneficial negative ions.

Peter Barnes
11-25-2015, 03:26 PM
nav2010 ... Thanks for the great post, have to get back and read it properly as I have to go pick my daughter from school. I know what its like being sick and tired and I myself became interested in Alchemy because of the Elixir of life, if somehow God could answer my prayers and stumble upon an elixir or substance that would save my health, doctors seem only to drug you but not cure you and you become dependent on drugs until they cause other complications and so on till cancer rears its ugly head then its time for more heroic interventions, I will be back later and read the full post, GREAT to hear you fixed your cancer, that is truly wonderful, lovely. God bless you.

Peter Barnes
11-25-2015, 06:55 PM
What happened to Nav? Ive read through the posts, seen photos and some people experiment but nobody eplicated Nav's achievement. Seems interesting but worried eeing s nobody has succeeded in re-creating Nav's elixir.

Kiorionis
11-25-2015, 07:29 PM
What happened to Nav?

Hey there Peter Barnes,
Most people on the forum don't log on regularly, and I bet nav's one of them.
If I recall correctly, this thread was one of his first posts in a few years.

Why hasn't anyone been able to replicate it yet?
I think nav has withheld some important information ;)
The search wouldn't be fun otherwise!

Peter Barnes
11-25-2015, 10:31 PM
Oh I see, hope he posts again soon

zoas23
11-26-2015, 06:19 AM
What happened to Nav? Ive read through the posts, seen photos and some people experiment but nobody eplicated Nav's achievement. Seems interesting but worried eeing s nobody has succeeded in re-creating Nav's elixir.

He stated that he was leaving the forum and said that he was "returning in 4 years".
I believe he got offended when his ideas or descriptions were questioned.

Nobody has been able to get the same results that Nav had or replicate his experiment.
I am not surprised by this fact.

Nav's instructions are a bit ambiguous (i.e, the water has to be heated to 37c whilst doing the electrolysis or AFTER doing the procedure? He also talked about the plaques being separated by 3mm and then explained that he also created a second device with a separation of 1mm).
If you make a .doc with all the posts by Nav, you will find that he talks about several different ways to perform his experiment... and they are different in some details.

The first time I wanted to "create" a Salt... it took me 4 or 5 months to arrive to a decent salt... and a long process of trial and error... and I had some 10 books explaining the process in a very detailed way + a few persons helping me with "tips" of "suggestions".
Nowadays I can do it in 24 hours without any errors.

I don't know about the other persons here, but my experience so far with alchemy is that whenever I want to do something NEW, something I have not done before, in most cases I do NOT arrive to the desired result in the first attempt, neither in the second. It always took me several attempts to master a NEW technique...

So I am not surprised by the fact that nobody has replicated the results that Nav has had yet.

I do agree with Kiorionis when he says that Nav has withheld some important information... but probably this information is not that he willingly hid something, but simply some specific details about how to do it properly, the "secret" is probably his experience and a long time that he spent doing almost the same thing with small variations till he reached the result he expected.

If Nav was being honest, I do believe that he was being honest, then it will take a lot of patience and a lot of attempts to replicate his results.

It is a clich to state that alchemy is an art... but it is an art... an art that needs probably a 99% of patience and a 1% of inspiration.

I have managed to replicate SOME of the results he had, whilst other things clearly didn't happen.
I have the intention of doing it again, but trying to correct the possible mistakes... and get each time closer to his results.

True Initiate
11-26-2015, 08:13 AM
I do agree with Kiorionis when he says that Nav has withheld some important information... but probably this information is not that he willingly hid something, but simply some specific details about how to do it properly, the "secret" is probably his experience and a long time that he spent doing almost the same thing with small variations till he reached the result he expected.


The first thing that comes to my mind regarding what Nav might have just hinted at or left out is this:


There is an air that the Sages tried to gather by the Moon and by the stars at night and in the morning dew. This air is an Oxygen bond that is created when the Ultraviolet light of the Sun and the stars shine on the atmosphere of the Earth. This is why the Sages called it the Hermaphrodite child of the Sun and Moon. In early days it was gathered by placing sheets pegged in each corner so that the dew was impregnated by the light of the Sun and the Moon and stars.

Nav stated that this process in Nature is accomplished by the action of Ultraviolet light on Air and the process that he has given us is kind of a substitute for the real process. Maybe ultraviolet light needs to be applied?

It is like making barbecue on open wood fire vs electrical stove. There is a big difference.

Peter Barnes
11-26-2015, 11:40 AM
Thanks for the replies, I want to try the experiment and knowing that it may take many attempts, now at least one can prepare for that situation.

Strange, why would a person leave?, I suppose if he was getting hassle then that would stress anybody out.

zoas23
11-26-2015, 06:28 PM
The first thing that comes to my mind regarding what Nav might have just hinted at or left out is this:


There is an air that the Sages tried to gather by the Moon and by the stars at night and in the morning dew. This air is an Oxygen bond that is created when the Ultraviolet light of the Sun and the stars shine on the atmosphere of the Earth. This is why the Sages called it the Hermaphrodite child of the Sun and Moon. In early days it was gathered by placing sheets pegged in each corner so that the dew was impregnated by the light of the Sun and the Moon and stars.

Nav stated that this process in Nature is accomplished by the action of Ultraviolet light on Air and the process that he has given us is kind of a substitute for the real process. Maybe ultraviolet light needs to be applied?

It is like making barbecue on open wood fire vs electrical stove. There is a big difference.

O.K.... nice idea!

I do have 5 huge ultra-violet lamps (the typical ones which are used to grow Marihuana indoors).

I don't smoke Marihuana, I am a freak who tried to grow Bonsais indoors, it didn't work in the long run... purchasing the lamps was very fun, because the seller assumed that "bonsai" was my "code word" for "Marihuana"... so he gave me a lot of tips about how to breed marihuana and winked an eye to me each time I explained that I was into Bonsais, not into Marihuana... one of the most surreal conversations I had in my life...

Me: I need 5 UV lights.
Sellers: Oh, OK... you have to turn them on for 14 hours per day... and check which plants are female and which ones are male, probably you know about it.
Me: It's for Bonsais.
Seller: O.K... I also breed... Bonsais. [winks an eye]
Me: I need them to breed bonsais indoors.
Seller: Yes, I am an expert in breeding... bonsais indoors. Once you have discarded the male plants, you have to go on till you see the fist flowers... once you see the first flowers, you can leave the lamps on for 24 hours a day to get the maximum amount of them... and then you cut the plants and let them dry upside down.
Me: With "Bonsais" I mean Bonsais.
Seller: I also have this soil/dirt that is the best substrate for "bonsais", you will notice a big difference when you smoke them. [winks an eye again]

LOL... similar things happened to me whilst purchasing lab supplies for alchemy... it is funny when you are talking about something and the other person assumes that you are talking about something else in a weird way.


Going back to the subject, I will try the experiment again using my UV lights, which seem to produce more UV light than the sun itself and the plaques separated by 1mm instead of 3mm. I need to get new plaques again and build my "device #2".

Though Nav insisted that the sunlight has to be AVOIDED during the digestion/incubation... but maybe it has to be used during the electrolysis. I will definitely give it a try.

I may try with the real sun and some magnifying glasses too.

Thank you for the idea.

Kiorionis
12-08-2015, 12:40 AM
Though Nav insisted that the sunlight has to be AVOIDED during the digestion/incubation... but maybe it has to be used during the electrolysis. I will definitely give it a try.

Something I noticed while reading through this thread again, the apparent temperature increase in nav's process:


What happens is @ 1.23v Oxygen and Hydrogen separate into their respective elements and will leave the water as bubbles. @ 1.51v the same process takes place but this time O3 Oxygen molecules form on and around the Anode of the device. Let this happen for a while and keep producing O3 bonds for 5 minutes but if the water temp increases to 37C then stop.

What then is causing the temperature increase, if not the electrolysis?

zoas23
12-22-2015, 05:20 AM
Something I noticed while reading through this thread again, the apparent temperature increase in nav's process:
What then is causing the temperature increase, if not the electrolysis?

I think your comment suggests something related to the heat of the Sun maybe following the logic of True Initiate...
However, I have to say that ANY electrolysis of anything creates heat... of course such thing does not discard the idea that something else (the sun?) can be increasing the temperature too, but the electrolysis itself causes an increase of the temperature (the closer you are to a "short circuit", the more the temperature will increase).

Other than that: I've had busy weeks with a different experiment, so I postponed further investigations of Nav's idea (my next step will be to create a new device, but I have not done it yet.... and also "play" a bit with the UV light, both natural and artificial).

HOWEVER, something interesting happened. I've created this thread recently:

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4579-Salt-and-glass-stoppers-joints

The interesting fact is that I had "abandoned" the water in the flaks due to lack of time.... simply in a shelve, no 37C... without avoiding the natural light, etc.

The non luted (transparent) flasks have not changed at all.
Whilst the LUTED flasks, ALL of them, have become a "single piece"... the piece of glass that closes the flask (LOL, speaking in a foreign language and having aphasia are sometimes too similar) has completely melted with the flask.

After "gently tapping" the piece of glass that closes the flask, I decided to use some REAL strength... and I finally switched to rubber gloves to increase the friction and try to spin it or move it in any direction... impossible, they completely fused.

The non luted flasks open perfectly as if nothing had ever happened... the luted ones... they seem to have become a single piece of glass (I even boiled them to see if the increase of pressure could force them to open... but even boiling them did not work). Interesting.

[I had not use any kind of "sealer" like bee wax or anything]

Making these flasks obsolete was not pleasing at all, but at the same time such thing made me smile and gave me the idea that some interesting shit happened in the LUTED flasks (pardon my formal English :p ).

theFool
12-22-2015, 06:55 AM
You may find this article interesting:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/magneticalteration.htm

I noticed some similarities between the "magnetic charging" described in the article and the experiment of this thread:
- Triple distilled water is used.
- Ozone or H2O2 is said to be produced also during "magnetic charging" (http://amasci.com/freenrg/wassrmag.html)
- "Magnetic charging" has to take place only for 5- 10 minutes and not more.
- A small current through the water is said to increase the effects.

Kiorionis
12-22-2015, 02:53 PM
However, I have to say that ANY electrolysis of anything creates heat...

Thanks for the clarification zoas23.

theFool
01-06-2016, 05:55 PM
I gave a few tries try to this experiment. The main strange thing observed was a chlorine (bleach) smell evolving during the first minutes of the electrolysis; after that it stops.
Digestions gave nothing interesting.

Now, this smell is a strange thing for me to observe. I took precautions to clean the vessels from any possible salts, washing them with deionised water in order to avoid the contamination of chloride salt. It is still produced.

It appears when the water is freshly double distilled (minutes after distillation). Used spring water. I think those two details are important.

This smell by no way can be interpreted as ozone. Nav's explanation with ozone seemed wrong to me from the begining. That is why I questioned also the truth of his story; how can you invent this process with a wrong understanding? You have to be very very lucky to stumble across it by following a mistaken idea. The other way is to be given the process from someone else or copy it from some hidden forum.

crestind
01-13-2016, 06:15 AM
You may find this article interesting:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/magneticalteration.htm

I noticed some similarities between the "magnetic charging" described in the article and the experiment of this thread:
- Triple distilled water is used.
- Ozone or H2O2 is said to be produced also during "magnetic charging" (http://amasci.com/freenrg/wassrmag.html)
- "Magnetic charging" has to take place only for 5- 10 minutes and not more.
- A small current through the water is said to increase the effects.
I tried a similar air magnetization setup, with 6 sets of magnets on the line, both in attractive (NS) as well as repulsive (NN or SS) configurations. There was no appreciable visible change to the water or any change in the taste after nearly 2 weeks of bubbling for 12 hours or so a day. It did manage to take on a tremendous amount of plastic flavor from the air tube though... Don't know if anyone else had different results. I am of the opinion that Mr. Long is suffering from a strong placebo effect.

theFool
01-13-2016, 12:44 PM
I tried a similar air magnetization setup... Was the water triple distilled? What was the source? I also had no positive results with any kind of magnetic water experiment.

crestind
01-13-2016, 05:40 PM
It probably was not triple distilled, as they were gallons of "Distilled" water from the store. The labels claim they are distilled, carbon filtered and RO'd if you can believe it. I imagine they should be close to 0ppm.

The only "positive" result I ever got was magnetically spinning impure water from natural sources like from streams around magnets. It causes the water to cloud up. It will not work with clean water such as distilled, which suggests to me the magnets are simply affecting impurities in the water and causing them to clump up somehow, resulting in a murky appearance. Murkiness usually being an indicator of larger particle sizes.

I tried the air tube magnetization because of the claim from this guy here...
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?367-Modified-Methods-For-Producing-Ormus-Material


Ormus water bubbler- concentrator
Take a fish tank air pump and put ceramic magnets nn ss so the all hover over each other over the tubing. Put the air stone on the end and bubble your water to charge your ormus in the water. Different types of water have different amounts of Ormus elements . City water will have the least amount of Ormus. charge for 5 minutes or longer. The longer it runs the more iridescent and cloudy the water will become. Some postulate this is due to fine m-state elements being in the air. Or the super charging of the M-state elements in the water. This procedure has also produced the oily film that moved through the glass and has a sweet flavor.

theFool
01-13-2016, 06:21 PM
It probably was not triple distilled, as they were gallons of "Distilled" water from the store. The labels claim they are distilled, carbon filtered and RO'd if you can believe it. I imagine they should be close to 0ppm. Still ,it may be different than distilled water from a spring. Distillation does not mean to remove everything that is inside the water. It acts in a different way than RO or carbon filtering. Just an idea.

ghetto alchemist
05-31-2016, 11:55 PM
I'm currently trying to electrolyse with curved electrodes (stainless steel bowls instead of flat plates)
and charging with higher voltages than Nav2010, 70V instead of Nav's 12V.
I'm seeing incredible things happening to the properties of the water that defy all scientific principles.

- the water behaves differently when poured (increase in viscosity)
- bubbles generated from pouring stay on the surface far longer giving the appearance of soapy water
- brown scum appears in the water after only a couple of minutes of electricty is applied
- dirty water sitting in the immediate area of the electrolysis cell cleans itself by separating out particulate matter
- the taste of the water changes.

Haven't tried to hold this new water at 37 degrees yet, spending all my time filtering the brown scum out
and trying to make the water more and more charged. I'm only putting this up now because these results truly are interesting in and of themselves.

Andro
05-31-2016, 11:59 PM
Hi,

1. Are you using distilled water?

2. Have you checked for changes in the freezing point after treatment?

3. What power source are you using for 70V?

Thanks.

elixirmixer
06-01-2016, 02:42 AM
i was just reading nav2010's post actually and im quite intriged also. how have you gone so far in your attempts?? any tips as i was just about to take a trip down to thw hardware store to get the supplies. what did you use to regulate the current??

elixirmixer
06-01-2016, 03:14 AM
i cant believe how much bullshit ive had to read to try to get the info om this. and you fucling scared nav2010 away... geeeesssss. going to buy all this equipment right now. talk is cheap.

"He who has made the Stone may cast the stone."

zoas23
06-01-2016, 05:12 AM
I'm currently trying to electrolyse with curved electrodes (stainless steel bowls instead of flat plates)
and charging with higher voltages than Nav2010, 70V instead of Nav's 12V.
I'm seeing incredible things happening to the properties of the water that defy all scientific principles.

- the water behaves differently when poured (increase in viscosity)
- bubbles generated from pouring stay on the surface far longer giving the appearance of soapy water
- brown scum appears in the water after only a couple of minutes of electricty is applied
- dirty water sitting in the immediate area of the electrolysis cell cleans itself by separating out particulate matter
- the taste of the water changes.

Haven't tried to hold this new water at 37 degrees yet, spending all my time filtering the brown scum out
and trying to make the water more and more charged. I'm only putting this up now because these results truly are interesting in and of themselves.

I got identical results... though with 12V.

HOWEVER I got the results YOU describe and not the ones that NAV described (the most notable effects are the increased viscosity, some *unexplained* amount of water that seems to vanish, absolutely no "white colored water"... and a weird brown stuff that I thought that could be grease or glue, but it keeps on showing up even after perfectly cleaning everything.

But this is very far from the stuff that Nav described:
-My water does not corrode metals in a different way that it would do before the electrolysis... it certainly does not dissolve silver... it doesn't create a "white" mysterious stuff... and it doesn't "eat everything".

Kiorionis
06-01-2016, 06:13 AM
@zoas

Perhaps 'water' is to be reinterpreted? Alcohol is technically a water. So is vinegar.

elixirmixer
06-01-2016, 06:47 AM
okay so i apologize for calling it all bullshit, i had only read half way (the first half was alot of bullshit)

Now... i wanna bet my right swollen nut (sorry mods i know i said id behave...) that thia needs to be done with dew, from a thunderstorm and that nitrates are the secret ingredient.

i want to draw on some points that no one has touched on. Alchemy is a sacred science is it not? A divine art? Nav was in a bad place, as a result of some nasty thoughts about cancer, his desire to create a product capable of helping himself (even subconciously) was FAR more of a driving factor than most others have just to see if this "VERY" cool sounding little project works or not. And considering is complete openness and seemingly good heart (i value my intuition and i dont believe he told a word of a lie, even if things could habe been explained better) im sure he actually PRAYED about this at some stage or another... so i just want to you too think about that... you got some of his results didnt you? shows he did actually perform the experiment.

i certainly would not give up hope on this idea, i mean consider the simplicity if it! its beautiful!

so im on board now! (arnt you all excited) and im going to do my best to first do exactly what is vaguely said. im going to warm up an incubation spot first. im using 316 stainless steel (although using stainless doesnt make heeeeaps of sense to mw but anyway, im going to use alot less water than the photos i saw. im going to pray. and when all of this turns out the same results we have already seen, then im going to repeat with sol UV and luna nitrates.

zoas23
06-01-2016, 07:12 AM
@zoas

Perhaps 'water' is to be reinterpreted? Alcohol is technically a water. So is vinegar.

I don't think so, though you are also right.

I don't think so: Nav described his method and he gave a very specific explanation of the types of water he used... and nothing in his words suggests that he was using the term as a metaphor. I think that when Nav said water, he meant water.

Though you are also right: sure... this same experiment can be done with ethanol, methanol, vinegar, distilled urine, dew, etc... AND such thing may give interesting results (or not)... but I think Nav was doing it with water in a literal way (he even described the different results he got with different types of literal water). Of course, that's not a reason to ignore all the other liquids a person can conceive.

ghetto alchemist
06-01-2016, 01:02 PM
Andro asked:
1. Are you using distilled water?
2. Have you checked for changes in the freezing point after treatment?
3. What power source are you using for 70V?

1 water is from the local river, I harvested from a section that snakes around a bit and with a couple of areas with the water flowing around rocks, very little run-off from farms in the area where I harvested. Water was a bit dirty when I first harvested it too.

2 I tested today.....hard to be totally sure, but it seems that the freezing point of the charged water is the same as uncharged. Not as exciting as we hoped huh.

3 Power source is a variable autotransformer (VARIAC) which has been bridge rectified but no capacitor for smoothing. There is a better description on Moshe's site HERE (http://www.moe-joe-working.com/moe_joe_cell_charging.html) under "Method 1". It's a mad scientist method, most of you won't have a VARIAC, and it's not very "ghetto" either. But I simply couldn't find a cheaper way to get the higher voltages.

I copied Moshe's design, but used 3 stainless steel bowls instead of his expensive setup. For spacers I used pine dowelling and washers cut from a white cutting board. You'll find a video on his site where he shows how to set up a hemisphere cell (half-cell) for charging water only. I used that video to get some ideas on how to cut the washers.

Ironically Moshe used to be a member of this forum until he got himself banned.

elixirmixer
06-01-2016, 01:07 PM
Ive been doing some research and found some things of value. This post assumes our goal to be the creation of ozone. Also, if your not aware, the lethal does for humans of ozone is 50ppm for 30mins.

a) the choice of electrodes is important. obviously. if it is ozone we are trying to create then a platnium anode, preferably dielectricly coated, is ideal.

b) uv radiation, perhaps directed by a magnifying glass onto the bubbles acumulating on the anode will create ozone (has the possibility to violently explode apparently.

c) There is Russian research that has shown that water is effected by magnetic fields and the emerging properties caused by a magnetic field are benefitual to an ozone creating environment.

d) ozone is diamagnetic, meaning that is activley repels itself from magnetic fields, which i was thinking could be a away of "holding down" the ozone in the water, since you might choose to be using a magnet anyway to help catalyise these changes.

Hope this helps. Is anyone still working on this?

ghetto alchemist
06-01-2016, 01:38 PM
Zoas23 says:
-My water does not corrode metals in a different way that it would do before the electrolysis... it certainly does not dissolve silver... it doesn't create a "white" mysterious stuff... and it doesn't "eat everything".

Did your water get that really thick surface tension water like in Moshe's videos?

I'd love to do a vacuum distillation on that kind of water, just to see what happens.


elixermixer says:

b) uv radiation, perhaps directed by a magnifying glass onto the bubbles acumulating on the anode will create ozone (has the possibility to violently explode apparently.

c) There is Russian research that has shown that water is effected by magnetic fields and the emerging properties caused by a magnetic field are benefitual to an ozone creating environment.

I reckon either or both of these might be fruitful avenues....you probably saw when Nav said to look into how exactly to make ozone from electrolysis for better information.

Wigwamman
06-01-2016, 07:48 PM
I'm currently trying to electrolyse with curved electrodes (stainless steel bowls instead of flat plates)
and charging with higher voltages than Nav2010, 70V instead of Nav's 12V.
I'm seeing incredible things happening to the properties of the water that defy all scientific principles.

at first congrads on your experiment,
and thanks for sharing :)

if u like and if u know how to, you might want to degausse/quench the SS316 as worked SS316 is still quite magnetic and that is something that is not desirable... the less its magnetic the better, as u only want it to be a conductor of static to the water not conducting any magnetic field on its own, this allows the magnetic field to only flow through the water, :) not ressisiting to any other field like if u use still magnetic steel, this makes for a way better effect (field shape..), if the SS is conpleetly non magnetic and your cell is constructed correctly it can run at as match as 3V just makes sure you have good spacers(Non magnetic/electric conducting) and some neutrals, the key is to create the field only in the water, this will structure the water,..
hope this might help u in your experiments, just be carefull drinking the stuff, depending on the charge N/S +/- it can be greate medicine or highly toxic...
kind regards..

zoas23
06-01-2016, 08:52 PM
Did your water get that really thick surface tension water like in Moshe's videos?

Yes and no...
I actually got the same results, but on a lower scale...

I got the same thing that Moshe got, except that in his case the whole thing is more noticeable (by far more noticeable) and it's probably due to a better design and a higher voltage.
But, yeah, I got the same results, except that "less" (I'm having a struggle with English right now... if this was a vegetable maceration to produce ethanol, I'd say that I got a 10% of ethanol and Moshe got a 60% of ethanol... as a way to explain it).

My results can be described as:
- Higher water tension: YES... it became closer to an "oil".

-It eats everything: NO... I can even touch it and it simply feels like touching a water that got more dense and nothing else (i.e, it's not like touching bleach that hurts your skin... or an acid).

-It corrodes metals like an alkahest: NO... definitely it doesn't.

-When it is sealed an important part of the water "vanishes": YES

-When the water is vanished it gets replaced by a mysterious white substance: NO

-The source of the water is very important: NO (I used commercial distilled water, distilled rain water and water from a river... my results didn't show any difference).

-Something weird happens if it is kept for a LONG time in a luted sealed flask: YES... it melted the "stopping" of the flask with the flask and I couldn't separate them. Such effect did not happen with non-luted flasks.

I will try to change my "device" and switch to a higher voltage... maybe we can all return to a "team work" and seeing if we all arrive to something.

Dendritic Xylem
06-01-2016, 09:12 PM
3 Power source is a variable autotransformer (VARIAC) which has been bridge rectified but no capacitor for smoothing. There is a better description on Moshe's site HERE (http://www.moe-joe-working.com/moe_joe_cell_charging.html) under "Method 1". It's a mad scientist method, most of you won't have a VARIAC, and it's not very "ghetto" either. But I simply couldn't find a cheaper way to get the higher voltages.

I copied Moshe's design, but used 3 stainless steel bowls instead of his expensive setup. For spacers I used pine dowelling and washers cut from a white cutting board. You'll find a video on his site where he shows how to set up a hemisphere cell (half-cell) for charging water only. I used that video to get some ideas on how to cut the washers.

Ironically Moshe used to be a member of this forum until he got himself banned.


The lack of capacitive smoothing is probably where your brown sludge came from.
I've made hho cells which are powered by rectified 120vac, and the plates corrode much faster than true dc.

Also, I'll come right out and say it.....I think Moshe is completely full of shit.
I have one of his moe-joe cells, which he kindly sent for free so I could test it. That was nice...
But during email exchanges I found out he basically had little or no success with the device he was selling.
When I told him I wasn't getting any results with the cell...he told me he was trying electrolytes and would let me know if that worked....:rolleyes:
Aren't you supposed to do that kind of basic testing BEFORE selling the product?

Take his words with a grain of salt.

zoas23
06-02-2016, 08:02 AM
On the issue of generating 70v... a question from someone with a vast ignorance of electrical appliances:

Wouldn't a transformer 220 to 70... or 110 to 70 (depending where you live) do the trick????

And then, wouldn't a simple dimmer prepared for 70V do the "trick" of controlling the current? (of course, the dimmer would be connected to the wires that "get out" of the transformer, not the ones that "get in").

This is cheap and I think it should work (unless "normal" transformers are sensitive to short circuits and the electrolysis itself creates a small short circuit -I am not too sure about this issue).

Dendritic Xylem
06-02-2016, 09:05 AM
Please don't play with AC higher than 25 volts or DC higher than 60 volts unless you understand what you are doing.
Remember, electricity can kill.

zoas23
06-02-2016, 11:36 AM
Please don't play with AC higher than 25 volts or DC higher than 60 volts unless you understand what you are doing.
Remember, electricity can kill.

I'm very aware of the dangers of electricity and I have worked many times with 380 Volts and a very high amperage (the lamps used in the film industry sometimes work with that current)... and I know by heart all the cautions to take.
[I even had to take a 4 months class about this specific subject: safety with electricity]

An accident with 380 volts is almost a death certificate... So I know how to be cautious and avoid doing stupid things.

My question is mostly related to technical issues where I have doubts... I don't know if a transformer being used as the "power generator" for an electrolysis of distilled water can produce a short circuit and be ruined. My main concern is such thing... but I won't end up electrified... I am mostly concerned with destroying the transformer (as to be very clear, I am not an expert in this field and I am not sure if my idea has a technical problem that will simply ruin the transformer... but I still know very well what NOT to do myself as to avoid a fatal accident).

Dendritic Xylem
06-02-2016, 05:30 PM
Sorry if I offended you. My comment was also aimed at potential readers, not just you.
Whether the cell acts as a short circuit will depend on the voltage, electrode spacing, and electrolyte content.

If the goal is to create 70v dc cheaply...you could connect (8) 9v batteries in series.
Not exactly 70v, but it would make a smooth 72v dc supply.
You can get rechargeable ones if you want to do more than a few tests.

A boost converter connected to a 12v supply might be a good cheap option.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-600W-10-60V-to-12-80V-Boost-Converter-Step-up-Module-car-Power-Supply-OY-/281797179064?hash=item419c6bb6b8:g:A-AAAOSw4SlV8uDp

ghetto alchemist
06-02-2016, 07:14 PM
Wigwaman says:
if u like and if u know how to, you might want to degausse/quench the SS316 as worked SS316 is still quite magnetic and that is something that is not desirable... the less its magnetic the better, as u only want it to be a conductor of static to the water not conducting any magnetic field on its own,

Ah yes....good point.
I neglected to mention that I originally purchased 5 bowls, all different diameters. The largest bowl was completely free of magnetism, the other 4 had a bit of magnetism. The 2 smallest bowls were thrown into a really hot coal fire for 3-5 mins and air cooled, then lightly sanded to remove most of the rainbow oxide on them. This removed most of the magnetism, and those are the 3 bowls that I'm using (the 2 small bowls plus the biggest bowl).

The other 2 bowls (3rd and 4th biggest) were too big and couldn't get hot enough from being placed in coals. With those 2, I surrounded them with loads of wood and did a solid burn, periodicly rotating them, and adding more wood. This removed their magnetism in some places only, and left them with a very thick black oxide coating almost too difficult to remove. Because of their residual magnetism I didn't bother to use them.


Wigwaman says:
just be carefull drinking the stuff, depending on the charge N/S +/- it can be greate medicine or highly toxic...

What would I have to do to make the water toxic? I connected negative lead to center, and positive lead to outside. Are you saying if the leads are swapped that it will produce a toxic water?

Seems like you have some experience with this stuff...would you care to share some more?

Andro
06-02-2016, 07:33 PM
Slightly off-topic:

While Ozone may or may not be a 'prima materia', I talked with a friend yesterday who explained to me a bit about the healing effects of ozonation (your drinking water or your own blood via IV circulation).

Allegedly, it may kill most pathogens (viruses, bacteria, fungi, etc...). Some people are rumored to be free of HIV, HPV, Hep. C, etc, after having their blood circulated through Ozone exposure.

ghetto alchemist
06-02-2016, 07:47 PM
The lack of capacitive smoothing is probably where your brown sludge came from.
I've made hho cells which are powered by rectified 120vac, and the plates corrode much faster than true dc.
I only left the capacitor off because I was eager to start charging. It's easy enough for me to add one and observe for any difference.

Have you seen the brown scum form before in your own cells? It seems to me that you haven't, but if so surely you've heard other HHO guys talk about it before. Let me say that even though annoying to clean it out, it's pretty amazing to watch it form. It appears right before your eyes seemingly from nowhere, makes me wonder what the fuck is going on.


Also, I'll come right out and say it.....I think Moshe is completely full of shit.
Come on...don't pussy-foot around, tell us what you really think. :D:D:D


Take his words with a grain of salt.

Since he's now selling stuff, I always regard him as a slick salesman to be weary of. But I remember him from his early days when he contributed his research to various forums only for the sake of sharing. I've seen videos released by him back in those days of water with very thick surface tension like half-set Jello. That's all I'm aiming to replicate.

Seems like you have a lot of experience to offer on this topic. Care to share some more?
What setup of plates did you electrolyse with?
Use pure water, or electrolytes?
What voltages and currents did you work with?
Did you ever see any anomalous effects?

------------------------------------------------------

theFool
06-02-2016, 08:55 PM
Have you seen the brown scum form before in your own cells? It seems to me that you haven't, but if so surely you've heard other HHO guys talk about it before. I've seen it sometimes and interpreted it as electrode corrosion. What do "HHO guys" think about it? My opinion is that it is nothing but corrosion, but sometimes nature works in mysterious ways.

Dendritic Xylem
06-03-2016, 07:56 AM
Have you seen the brown scum form before in your own cells?

Yes. My cells slowly corroded and produced brown "scum" which required cleaning. 316L stainless


Seems like you have a lot of experience to offer on this topic. Care to share some more?
What setup of plates did you electrolyse with?
Use pure water, or electrolytes?
What voltages and currents did you work with?
Did you ever see any anomalous effects?

I only have experience with hho production and ozone production via air/arc. Nothing exotic.
Numerous plate setups.
Distilled as well as a couple of different electrolytes in many concentrations.
3-180v 20A on 12v and around 5-6A on 120v with 180v spikes.
No anomalous effects, but I only played with brute force electrolysis like everyone in this thread.

I've tried the Joe cell type orgone conditioning, and the setup in this thread, unsuccessfully...but don't let me deter you!
Check out Vernon Roth and George Wiseman's comments on strange manifestations in hho cells.
http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/blog/browns-gas/browns-gas-transmutation/browns-gas-transmutation

zoas23
06-03-2016, 08:50 AM
I've seen it sometimes and interpreted it as electrode corrosion. What do "HHO guys" think about it? My opinion is that it is nothing but corrosion, but sometimes nature works in mysterious ways.

The brown stuff... We are all getting it.
It doesn't look like corrosion to me.

I still have stored the results of my first experiments... the brown stuff is still there, but the water is still transparent. Shouldn't the corrosion of steel "stain" the water and give the whole of it a "brownish" tone???

I've just taken this pic:
http://s33.postimg.org/9sgw6j78f/WP_20160603_05_30_05_Pro.jpg

It is the bottom of a flask with lots of "brown stuff"... it acts like a phlegm that doesn't dissolve in water and it clearly looks viscous... and it "groups" itself in small shapeless concentrations that don't stick with each other.

I even shacked the flask as if I was doing a cocktail and they float in the water for some hours and then they slowly "fall to the ground" again.

If someone has an idea about how to test what it is, I can for sure put the water in a bowl and dry it and see what happens with the "brown remains". They don't look like the corrosion of steel to me.

EDIT: I've just did a simple test as to have some more hints: I have a strong magnet... the brown stuff is clearly not affected by magnetism (it doesn't interact with the magnet... it's not attracted or repelled to it).

Wigwamman
06-03-2016, 11:31 AM
Ah yes....good point.
I neglected to mention that I originally purchased 5 bowls, all different diameters. The largest bowl was completely free of magnetism, the other 4 had a bit of magnetism. The 2 smallest bowls were thrown into a really hot coal fire for 3-5 mins and air cooled, then lightly sanded to remove most of the rainbow oxide on them. This removed most of the magnetism, and those are the 3 bowls that I'm using (the 2 small bowls plus the biggest bowl).

The other 2 bowls (3rd and 4th biggest) were too big and couldn't get hot enough from being placed in coals. With those 2, I surrounded them with loads of wood and did a solid burn, periodicly rotating them, and adding more wood. This removed their magnetism in some places only, and left them with a very thick black oxide coating almost too difficult to remove. Because of their residual magnetism I didn't bother to use them.


What would I have to do to make the water toxic? I connected negative lead to center, and positive lead to outside. Are you saying if the leads are swapped that it will produce a toxic water?

Seems like you have some experience with this stuff...would you care to share some more?

hello..
yes quench is a bit of a bitch, this is way i like to degausse, as quenching "make the steel charry red and then dip it in oil to cool it very quickly", this breaks the crystal latise of the SS and so will become non magnetic, but it can also couse the steel to decarbonate, and form chromium carbite at the outside of the steel,, IE the Black stuff, making the steel useless, degausing is way more simpel but less effective..
a bit on the charges, as far as i figured out.

N- cleans water and gives a cold water "crapp will drop to bottom"
N+ cleans water and gives warm water "crapp will flowed to top"

S- makes water more dirty "clone" and makes it a dead cold
S+ makes water more dirty "clone" and heats water up to a dead wormth

not drink south waters only drink north waters. :)
ps this is not about HHO production its about magnetic field effects in water, changing the water..

kind regards

theFool
06-03-2016, 02:26 PM
If someone has an idea about how to test what it is, I can for sure put the water in a bowl and dry it and see what happens with the "brown remains". They don't look like the corrosion of steel to me. Try with copper or other inert electrodes, probably it will not form or will have different color (e.g. copper hydroxide).

Dendritic Xylem
06-03-2016, 07:39 PM
I've just did a simple test as to have some more hints: I have a strong magnet... the brown stuff is clearly not affected by magnetism (it doesn't interact with the magnet... it's not attracted or repelled to it).

Only metallic iron is ferromagnetic. I think hematite might be also, but very very weak. Also magnetite of course.
Most iron compounds/salts won't react to a standard permanent magnet.
You could probably dissolve the brown precipitate in hcl and test for the iron/chromium/nickel.
Unless you have iron hydroxides, which may be difficult to dissolve.
I'm not sure what agents you would use...other members here are better with chemistry.

theFool
06-19-2016, 09:28 AM
You could probably dissolve the brown precipitate in hcl and test for the iron/chromium/nickel.
Unless you have iron hydroxides, which may be difficult to dissolve.
Well, just checked, it dissolves fine and shows positive for iron if you do this test (http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Core/Inorganic_Chemistry/Descriptive_Chemistry/Elements_Organized_by_Block/3_d-Block_Elements/Group_08%3A_Transition_Metals/Chemistry_of_Iron#Testing_for_iron(III)_ions_with_ thiocyanate_ions).

With great certainty, it is iron but this was pretty obvious from the beginning I think.

elixirmixer
10-11-2016, 11:56 AM
I would love to write up one of my smart arse post's and continue this epic voyage of replications; but unfortunately, the session of my ego is shortly coming to a close... Therefore i will, in the depths of my humility.. share with you, what has been shown to me via revelation from The Lord, concerning the NavMundi...

Nav was indeed pious IMHO in his explanation and the sharing of his technique. It is MHO that none of the experiments performed in an attempt to replicate the NavMundi (For i believe this to contain a great Celestial Fire, possibly one of the strongest of all magnets.) ...were very well orientated to creating the desired effects, but rather, that the group has dug deep into paths of electrical variables, without focusing on the core hypothesis, which was to create and trap ozone, with a glass container, hermetically sealed, and mildly incubated.

The creation of ozone... within the context of what we are refering to in this situation... is only generated through the oxygen bubbles, created from the electrolysis, being exposed to UV radiation, of a particular wavelength in particular which escapes my memory right now.. but that creates a change in electronic configuration, with the end cause being the creation of ozone.

You must use, the suns rays in the summer/spring, angled towards the bubbles of oxygen, created by electrolysis in distilled water , using either stainless steel or platinum electrodes, in order to create the ozone which you seek. (Obtaining a commercial UV light with the desired wavelength proved to be very difficult ((IN AUSTRALIA)))

The brown precipitate is likely to be alchemically prepared amino acids, which is natures general reaction to electrolysis and water (this effect has boggled biologists for quite some time.)

Magnets... neodymium magnets extracted from computer harddrives will work well, placed at the TOP of the water container, (and pointing downward) will propell oxygen to the surface, and ozone downward into the water.

This is due to the paramagnetics of oxygen and the diamagnetics of ozone.

Also: the magnets help the distilled water to begin reacting and creating oxygen. It increases the waters electromagnetic potential, so even distilled water, can be a little more conductive.

Magnets and the Sun people... which Nav did share softly, and which i also encouraged the group with, but to no acknowledged avail.

A summery: The electronics in discussion are not the principal variable that need be discussed, it is the wavelength of UV radiation on pure oxygen that is the principal focus. Of which focus, should be done with a magnifying glass ;)

I wish the best to all seekers of the truth.

ghetto alchemist
10-11-2016, 08:02 PM
Thanks for that, it was worth waiting for.

About the magnet, would polarity matter?
Eg south pole, better than north pole?

zoas23
10-11-2016, 09:04 PM
Interesting.

I still have my flasks stored in a shelve... which catches some of the sun rays during the morning (dawn till 10 or 11 am).
The "quick" effects didn't happen.

What happed is:
-The LUTED flasks melted and became a single piece (I can't open them anymore). The water didn't seem to change though.

-The NON LUTED flasks are currently filled with more or less 1/8 of water and 7/8 of something that looks like a "vanilla milkshake", but it does NOT act like an alkahest, it floats on water, it's not more volatile than water is.... but it's clearly white and absolutely non-transparent (it looks like milk with lots of bubbles). This happened WITHOUT incubation (though I did the 3 days incubation)... but these flasks are as old as this thread is. No "super powers" were detected in the "white stufff" and I have no idea of what it is (I asked a chemist friend who came home to visit and asked him to explain it to me, he said: "as a chemist, I can't offer any kind of explanation, other than it doesn't make sense... it can be a colony of Bacterias, but it's unlikely because they have no *food* there... and it doesn't look like a fungi either, so I have no explanation"). Though other than saying "this is VERY bizarre", I can't say that my "milkshake" has any kind of super special power.

Oh... someone dares to answer some questions? (I'm not testing your knowledge, I don't have an answer myself):

-Why the LUTED flasks melted and the NON-LUTED flasks didn't????

-Could it be that Nav was describing a LONG process and his "3 days" were a trick? (I am getting closer to his results by doing nothing, except for waiting -though I'm far from his results, other than getting the "white thing").

Lux Natura
10-12-2016, 12:28 AM
There may be thing easier to work on than ozone, and much more common and readily available. If one understands how these simper things are formed, one can work with any matter whatsoever, because these things one can work with evolve during the processes, and not necessarily from the matter one begins one. All paths thus become viable.

The solar spirit produces a transformation, and this new matter further produces more transformations. At each stage we get complexification, less subtle, more hidden, and a chained manifestation.

We can work with matters at various levels, to work back towards release that initial solar spirit, or we can work on capturing that solar spirit in our own fashion, or we can recreate that solar spirit in the lab. Greatly different timescales in the different processes though.

The best I can tell, some of these processes that are deemed to be alchemical secrets are known about in the general science and chemistry community - but are sectioned off as rarely thought about oddities because there is no real application for the products. My research shows that there is no understood idea of timescales. The word "spontaneously" are often used. My thinking is that as soon as the first seed is formed, it quickly chain reacts, but the methodology of forming that first seed they do not know about. I've read it on this forum many times, and people explain it in their own interesting ways.

It seems I've said opposing things - that IT is contained in the matter and can be brought forth - versus - it is produced by the process and not inherent to the matter. Both these things are true and completely valid.

I think sometimes we are so preconceived with what we imagine the things we are looking for to be, that we completely miss the most simple things. A mystery is a mystery because we do not know it. But at some point it becomes something extravagant, and we give it all the possible qualities that we imagine it should be, to the point where we will cast it aside because "surely it can't be that!". We get caught up in the mystery, and in that search we are only searching through our own illusions.

I think what elixirmixer says above is a "big thing" and we can reduce and simplify it even more, just looking at the most base principles of what he is saying, and remember that we can recreate many aspects of nature in the lab.

zoas23
10-12-2016, 04:04 AM
There may be thing easier to work on than ozone, and much more common and readily available. If one understands how these simper things are formed, one can work with any matter whatsoever, because these things one can work with evolve during the processes, and not necessarily from the matter one begins one. All paths thus become viable.

(...)

I think sometimes we are so preconceived with what we imagine the things we are looking for to be, that we completely miss the most simple things. A mystery is a mystery because we do not know it. But at some point it becomes something extravagant, and we give it all the possible qualities that we imagine it should be, to the point where we will cast it aside because "surely it can't be that!". We get caught up in the mystery, and in that search we are only searching through our own illusions.

I agree with the first paragraph... I simply decided to give it a try because it was way too easy and something in the procedure attracted me (I can't explain what, but probably the idea of doing something 100% different than anything I've done before -i.e, using electricity).

As for the "myth" and how easy is to get trapped in illusions... hmmm... My attitude with this experiment has always been "let's see what happens" without expecting something specific (to be honest, I got "much more" than what I expected)... and yet the procedures are so "new" and "modern" to me that I'm mostly lost in a different way (not truly lost in "the myth" or "prejudices", but into a simple "So... what is this white thing?").

A transmutation happened, that's something that my eyes see... but it's still uncertain to me if my "white yogurt" has any value (other than not having a clear chemical explanation -that's not MY opinion, but the opinion of a friend who is an excellent chemist and works in a field of chemistry that gets quite close to spagyrics -he works 100% with essential oils to produce flavors and aromas... I always thought that such thing was "evil", but with all his explanation I value what he does -no strange chemicals, only essential oils... and a very ethical person, in the sense that he refuses to work with cheaper options which are unhealthy).

In short: I obtained *something*, but I don't know what this *something* is (I can only describe its properties... and some of them coincide with the descriptions of Nav, but some others don't).

And then there's some questions I can't answer.

i.e, the LUTED flasks became a "single piece" (or melted and the joints fused)... but the water inside doesn't look interesting. I don't want to break them though, so I am investigating how to open them.

The NON-LUTED flasks followed a very different reaction and created this "yogurt", thus I agree with the idea of the importance of the Sun... but I don't know what is what I have inside them.

Dendritic Xylem
10-14-2016, 05:52 AM
Hey zoas, what do you mean by the flask "melted"?
Do you just mean the stopper is stuck?
What did you use for luting?

Can we see some pics of the white stuff? Does it have a smell?

zoas23
10-14-2016, 07:00 AM
Hey zoas, what do you mean by the flask "melted"?
Do you just mean the stopper is stuck?
What did you use for luting?

Can we see some pics of the white stuff? Does it have a smell?

Yes, with melted I mean that the stopper is stuck... this happened in ALL the luted flasks (I have many, since I studied variants of the same thing... I even have a luted and a non luted flask with normal distilled water with NO electrolysis at all as to compare results). Since the experiment was so beyond my usual ways, I had to be more "scientific".

but the flask didn't MELT in the sense that it looks like the clocks of Dal... but the stopper and the vessel became a single piece of glass... as if they fused/melted with each other.

I used nothing for luting, the flasks are already luted (those dark brown flasks designed to filter UV rays).

Yes, I will posts the pics soon, I'm having an unexpected and somehow serious medical problem right now.

No... I do remember to have smelled something like "bleach" a LONG time ago, but it could have been induced by the comments of others... what I have right now does not have any kind of smell (i.e, no difference in smell with normal water).

JDP
10-14-2016, 11:21 AM
Yes, with melted I mean that the stopper is stuck... this happened in ALL the luted flasks (I have many, since I studied variants of the same thing... I even have a luted and a non luted flask with normal distilled water with NO electrolysis at all as to compare results). Since the experiment was so beyond my usual ways, I had to be more "scientific".

but the flask didn't MELT in the sense that it looks like the clocks of Dal... but the stopper and the vessel became a single piece of glass... as if they fused/melted with each other.

I used nothing for luting, the flasks are already luted (those dark brown flasks designed to filter UV rays).

Yes, I will posts the pics soon, I'm having an unexpected and somehow serious medical problem right now.

No... I do remember to have smelled something like "bleach" a LONG time ago, but it could have been induced by the comments of others... what I have right now does not have any kind of smell (i.e, no difference in smell with normal water).

It seems to me that what happened with the glass stoppers and flasks is just some kind of "seizure" (to use common lab lingo for when ground glass stoppers/adapters become "stuck"):

http://www.clemson.edu/research/safety/manuals/labSafety/sop2.html

elixirmixer
01-13-2017, 04:10 AM
Okay people, I know you've all been waiting for it.

ELIXERMIXERS NAV2010 REVIVAL!

Now I am choosing to take this in a little bit more of a philosophic approach. Im not really so much interested in Nav's machine, and his design ect... as I am, replicating his results.

We are looking for a water, that will shrink in size over 5 times, turn a ghosty transparent white, and maintain its first weight.

Now, if memory serves me correctly, Nav basically said "here's my design", but I don't think he actually told you what he was doing. Arguments broke out real real quickly and I don't think he was too interested to give away the secret to people who where swining away his pearls.

So, THIS will be the experiment that I will perform.

Close quarters electrolysis, for 5 mins, in the sunlight, and using a magnifying glass, I am going to aim concentrated sunlight at the oxygen bubbles during the five minutes of electrolysis.

I will also be using neodymium magnets to encourage a migration of the ozone downward, so as to have more hope in capturing it.

I'm not doing the experiment straight away, but I will get prepared for a kick off in about two weeks. Next week i'm finishing off my giant essential oils extractor :cool:

Vidocq
01-24-2017, 03:21 PM
Ozone can produce nitric acid or nitric oxide, producing corrosive effects on the apparatus used to treat water with ozone.

lapisph
03-23-2017, 10:38 AM
Hello guys!
Ive been reading this post and its interesting...

I tried the experiment for the first time, and in my glass appears a little brown "spots"... when i shake it it looks better...

zoas23,
in one of your vessels appears this "brown things", right?
Sorry for my english, but I cant understand very well when you referred to "LUTED FLASK and NON LUTED FLASK"... can you tell me in spanish what do you mean with those words, please...
Did you tried the experiment a second time...?
I hope you can answer me...

Ill try for a second time...

zoas23
03-23-2017, 05:31 PM
zoas23, in one of your vessels appears this "brown things", right?

In ALL of them actually. I've heard it's iron oxide, but it does not make a lot of sense to me since I always used stainless steel.
(though I think that MOST people got the same "brown stuff").


Sorry for my english, but I cant understand very well when you referred to "LUTED FLASK and NON LUTED FLASK"... can you tell me in spanish what do you mean with those words, please... Did you tried the experiment a second time...? I hope you can answer me...

English is not my first language, so I think I got confused with the expression.
When I wrote "luted flask" I meant "amber flasks" (frascos mbar / marrones).
When I wrote "non luted", I meant "transparent flasks" (frascos transparentes.... en los dos casos SIEMPRE us frascos con boca esmerilada y tapn de vidrio).

The amber flasks protect what is inside from the UV rays, the transparent ones do not.
What happened next in the amber ones and in the transparent ones is VERY different.

Amber = not much noticeable action, but the glass joints "melted" with the flasks and they became impossible to open.
Transparent = a FEW of the effects described by Nav happened, but only a FEW (water that vanishes, it becomes white for some time -though after a LONG time... it becomes transparent again later). In my case it was NEVER corrosive or even slightly corrosive... It was for sure NOT a "pure Spiritus Mundi" (having seen both things, I can say that what I got was not such thing, maybe a very diluted Spiritus Mundi, but somehow useless... there are other ways to get it with by far more purity -IF such water was a diluted Spiritus*, which I honestly don't know).

*Yes, water is in itself a diluted spiritus, but I meant that I do not know if the concentration increased or not. If it did, it was not significant.

And, yes, I tried the experiment more than a "second time"... I had (and still have) everything that was needed, so I did it a LOT of times with different variations (sunlight, darkness, moon... 37C, 27C, 40C... 5 minutes of electrolysis, 15 minutes, 2 hours, etc... these variations did not give me any noticeable change).

I completely gave up trying with this method, some curious things happened, but I would call them "curiosities". I never got what Nav claimed to have reached.
I decided to stop because I did not understand the PHILOSOPHY behind this idea, so my variations were always quite "scientific" (as to give it a name)... i.e, making lots of variations changing factors and seeing what happens (and even keeping a non-electrolyzed water as a "sample" to see the differences).

I am unable to say "this is completely useless" or "Nav was not telling the truth"... BUT if he was honest, then I'd say that I never got what he got using this method (and then I learnt absolutely different methods which proved to be more useful and very unrelated to this one, so I decided to stick to these other ones).

Unless I have an "electrical epiphany" (LOL), I doubt I will do this thing again.

lapisph
03-24-2017, 11:03 AM
First of all, thank you zoas 23 for your answer and the details. I hope you can help me a little bit...

Yes, I have the same "brown stuff".
Thanks for the explanation of the luted and non luted flask...



And now the water of the Experiment #1 is in the "plain" vessel and the "luted" vessel... whilst the water of the Experiment #2 is in the "decorated" vessel and in the blue vessel. The four of them are on a hot plate set at 37C...

* Did you always keep the temperature of the flasks with this hot plate?
* How this hot plate had the 37 C? with fire (gas) or electrical? it was like a grill?
* How did you measure the temperature of the liquid inside the flask (without open the flask)?

I ask you because I keep the temperature with a light bulb... I puted the flask in a jar with water... and before the first attempt, I measure the temperature of the water of the jar, the flask, the room temperature and the liquid inside the flask and all are different temperatures (until I reached the same between the jars water and the water inside the flask).
Maybe its obvious the different temperatures, but my point is that maybe you puted the hot plate in 37 grades but the liquid inside the flask had another temperature... Or just the bottom had the temperature...

* Did you shake the flask to stabilize the temperature?

I used a power supply of 12 volts and 1 amp.
* I saw that you used a power supply, right? Whats the voltage and amperage of that power supply?

I made 3 electrolysis, one after another. When I made the first I saw the bubbles, but when I made the second I almost did not see bubbles (I threw out the water)...
Before the 3rd electrolysis I washed the stainless steel plates, and then the bubbles appeared again...
* Did you washed your plates in every electrolysis?


I hope you do not disturb with many questions...
Ill try for a second chance, using your answers to try another path...

Ill report my results too...

zoas23 thank you for your support!