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Michael Sternbach
11-10-2015, 09:07 AM
Hi people,

If you were to commence the Great Work based on using gold prepared in a colloidal (possibly mono-atomic) form, how would you go about it?

Which are the most helpful texts in this regard?

Best,
Michael

Florius Frammel
08-29-2016, 06:44 PM
Hi Michael,
Are you still interested?

If you can read German try this:

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://duepublico.uni-duisburg-essen.de/servlets/DerivateServlet/Derivate-27927/Diss_Mahl.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwih05axoOfOAhXBbxQKHQzADi0QFggsMAE&usg=AFQjCNFugoa5gC0dp50rUY5ppVy2LhXWCA&sig2=CakKEggiHoqwPEhihk_AnQ

But maybe we have different definitions of "colloidal" and monoatomic. If you want monoatomic gold, then just solve it in aqua regia.
Colloidal gold consists of Goldnanoparticles in water (not solved).
I did that once with silver and gold and had access to a REM to actually see them. They can differ in size and form. It is very hard to get one particular size and/or form without the control of this very expansive microscope.

Nevertheless, the interesting thing about those nanoparticles is, that depending on form and size, the liquid where they're in has a different color.
I observed liquids turning from blue to yellow/green to red. And some even had a different color when watched in a different angle to the light source.
This effect in modern physics is known as "Mie Scattering"

Chasm
08-29-2016, 09:40 PM
Hi people,

If you were to commence the Great Work based on using gold prepared in a colloidal (possibly mono-atomic) form, how would you go about it?

Which are the most helpful texts in this regard?

Best,
Michael
Hey Mike,
If you're looking for classical texts, there aren't any.

Florius Frammel
08-30-2016, 06:59 AM
Hey Mike,
If you're looking for classical texts, there aren't any.
You can't be absolutely sure about that I think. In classical texts they sure didn't use the words "colloid" or "monoatomic". Instead they might have used a more flowerish description. We will probably never be sure about that. Anyway, all the material needed to produce colloids was available in old times. And the color changing effects of those colloids might be a hint that someone is on an interesting way.

theFool
08-30-2016, 07:12 AM
Useful thread:
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?341-Is-M-State-Alchemy

Florius Frammel
08-30-2016, 08:11 AM
It also could help reading other opinions:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/ORMUS

Note that there's a difference between m-state and colloidal gold. I didn't know about this ORMUS, that's why I was puzzled about the word "monoatomic".
Actually when solved in aqua regia the gold particle is alone ("mono") but is in charged form (an "ion"). Some use the words atom and ion equally.
That m state theory looks interesting but seems to be pretty unlikely.
Again, this has nothing to do with colloids, which do sciencely proven exist.

theFool
08-30-2016, 09:14 AM
It also could help reading other opinions:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/ORMUS There are interesting quotes in the thread I mentioned about the "calx of gold" and references to alchemical literature. Don't let the title keep you away from it.


If you want monoatomic gold, then just solve it in aqua regia. Consider the possibility that this is not true. When gold is disolved in A.R. with a small amount of HNO3 it is easier to reduce to metal compared to gold dissolved in A.R. with a higher HNO3 proportion. We don't know the exact reason.

Florius Frammel
08-30-2016, 11:38 AM
Right, your link is an interesting read.

Am I right that you first oxidize metallic gold with a.r. to get gold ions (or a chlorido-complex of gold ions) and then reduce it again to atoms? That's exactly the same procedure when making colloids.
I could imagine that the more HNO3 you are using, the more gold atoms after the reduction are oxidized back to ions. When you reduce the amount of HNO3 there may still be enough molecules to oxidize all atoms in the first place, but no more once they are reduced again. Just a theory..

theFool
08-30-2016, 01:28 PM
I could imagine that the more HNO3 you are using, the more gold atoms after the reduction are oxidized back to ions. When you reduce the amount of HNO3 there may still be enough molecules to oxidize all atoms in the first place, but no more once they are reduced again. Just a theory.. You are right, this is probably what happens if you leave the HNO3 in the solution and try to reduce the gold back to atoms. Depending on the amount of HNO3 dissolved and the concentration of the gold ions, you get various yieds. That is why the usual practice involves removing the HNO3 (e.g. with repeated evaporations) before reduction.

I want to say something different. Imagine the following two solutions:
1) Dissolve colloidal gold in A.R.
2) Dissolve gold leaf in A.R.
Both solutions should be identical chemically. But when an attempt to reduce them is made, different results are obtained. Actually, it is very difficult to reclaim the metal from the colloidal solution in A.R. for some reason.

Ghislain
08-30-2016, 02:57 PM
Here was a very unscientific experiment at making a colloid of gold...it was very hit and miss and as I made my acids to dissolve the gold via the same unscientific method I did not try the end result.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCqhFDVZqUc

Note the use of sodium citrate is to coat the gold nano particles to stop them recombining...I think ;)

Ghislain

Edit: I think the measure of sodium citrate should have been 0.15g not 1.5g :( oh well!

Ghislain
08-30-2016, 03:10 PM
it is very difficult to reclaim the metal from the colloidal solution in A.R. for some reason.

In my failed first attempt, by adding too much sodium citrate the gold precipitated out of solution. I washed this and added it back to my dissolved gold and after a few minutes it had reconstituted back to what may be loosely called Chloroauric acid;)

I would think if you were to smelt the black precipitate you would end up with gold metal maybe?

Ghislain

theFool
08-30-2016, 03:46 PM
I would think if you were to smelt the black precipitate you would end up with gold metal maybe? Probabaly yes. I think it requires high temp furnace and a flux.

Florius Frammel
08-30-2016, 09:21 PM
@theFool: what are those different results?

@Gishlain: The sodium citrate has two functions. You are right. It prevents the nanoparticles from growing bigger and it reduces the goldparticles to atoms.
These atoms bond together and form nanoparticles which in a solution is a colloid.
You can use other substances for coating, for example PVP or gummi arabicum but then an other suitable reducing agent is needed. I used NaBH4 but I think it's hard to get.

In this operations almost anything is important. For example you get different results when using different amounts of sodium citrate.
Also very important is the duration you drop in your solution of sodium citrate.
You recognize if you really made a colloid when the liquid gets a color. The nanoparticles then have the same size as wavelengths of light. Depending on size and form the absortion is at a different wavelength and you see different colors.

If the nanoparticles keep on growing they become bigger than the wavelength of light and therefore visible as a dirty looking precipitate.

I made some pictures of some of my nanoparticles and the color of the liquids. If your interested I could upload some.

theFool
08-30-2016, 09:36 PM
@theFool: what are those different results?
For example while one solution gives a black precipitate with SMB, the other gives almost none.

Florius Frammel
08-30-2016, 09:57 PM
If the colloidal gold becomes a black precipitate that can only mean the nanoparticles grow bigger. Maybe they bond together. Normally they should be reduced like the gold in the plate. Strange indeed.

theFool
08-30-2016, 10:15 PM
If the colloidal gold becomes a black precipitate that can only mean the nanoparticles grow bigger. Maybe they bond together. Normally they should be reduced like the gold in the plate. Strange indeed. Sorry I meant the opposite. The colloidal does not give precipitate (#1 solution). The #2 gives the usual black precipitate.

But since the colloid nanoparticles are dissolved first in A.R., we shouldn't care from where they came ..