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Awani
12-06-2015, 06:13 AM
You all know the famous serial killer Charles Manson (who actually didn't kill anyone)... well I think he has some very interesting points.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muuobnbp6qQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l2WMuoIuhE

What prison?

:cool:

zoas23
12-09-2015, 08:50 AM
I don't know how much you investigated about C. Manson and "The Family". I did it when I was a teen.

Some facts:

- "The Family" was indeed a neo-Gnostic group... picking ideas from different neo-Gnostic sources, but creating their own subjective cocktail (Mainly the Process Church and the O.T.O.)

-C. Mansons enjoyed and still does playing the role of a prophet.

-If you see a "selection of quotes", depending on the selection you see, he may look like a wise man.

-If you see the whole context, then this idea that he was or is "wise" probably changes. His "gnosis" can't be divorced from his fanatic racism, mostly against black people, though also Jews... and he was mostly a White Suprematist who thought that he was both God and Satan (Mostly taking these terms in the sense that they were used in the Process Church -God as the punisher, Satan as the executor of the Punishment)... and his "group" was mostly involved with the idea of triggering a race war to exterminate the black race (and the Jews in the second place, but Manson was more concerned or worried about the black people).

-The KKK also has a LOT of "gnosticism" mixed into their ideology and ceremonies (the KKK "rituals" are easy to find on the internet).

-If you want to understand Manson, it is impossible to "forget" his racist ideals, his white suprematist ideals, which were the central core of his "gnosis".

-The fact that someone has a "gnostic" influence doesn't instantly make this person "wise" or "interesting"... Gnosticism is similar to a mould, which can be filled with gold, but it can also be filled with crap (the KKK, the Nazi Party... two organizations that certainly used a "gnostic mould", but filled it with racist crap).

-I don't like Manson at all...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKUu0mdQHhg

Awani
12-09-2015, 09:30 AM
You miss the point (it seems) which was my point... :)

Like in the video... listen to what he says, and I paraphrase: "Why make the black man from the jungle into a man? In the jungle he was a god!"

There is "wisdom" in all his subtexts. Or proves the point that it is all about how "it" is perceived.

:cool:

Kiorionis
12-09-2015, 05:12 PM
In other words, present these quotes to someone without telling them it was Charles Manson, and they might think it was Buddha or Christ.

horticult
12-09-2015, 06:50 PM
well i suppose alchemysts have to observe nature
not be correct
int end ded
nffn

zoas23
12-10-2015, 07:55 PM
In other words, present these quotes to someone without telling them it was Charles Manson, and they might think it was Buddha or Christ.

I absolutely agree...

A "selective quoting" can do miracles.

Several years ago a local association (a "non governmental association"/ a "non for profit association") of journalists had created an advertisement. The advertisement used the technique of "selective quoting".

It showed several phrases of a political leader and also a lot of accomplishments of his government (opening an X amount of schools, connecting the country with highways, designing an affordable car, getting rid of the inflation, etc). The advertisement made this politician look almost as the coolest guy that ever existed.

By the end of the advertisement the name of the leader was shown, it was, of course, Hitler.

And after the name was revealed, the "morale" of the advertisement was shown. It simply said something like:

"Whilst watching the news or reading the newspapers, always have in mind that what you see or read is not there to inform you about the truth, but to create in you an opinion. Be cautious and clever whilst watching or reading the news, the information is never objective".

If you decide to ignore the general context of Manson's ideology, a lot of his phrases can sound very cool (he became an ecologist in jail, he always talked about "freedom" and quite often behaved like a libertarian anarchist, an ideology that I do not despise at all... and I know that Dev doesn't dislike it either).

But if you KNOW the general context, that goes beyond the murder of Sharon Polanski & etc by some of his pals... "The Family" was a White Supremacist association that had the megalomaniac fantasy of being the active agents of some sort of prophecy about a "Holy Race War" to exterminate the black race in the USA.

I know that Manson can look as "the rebel", the "outsider", etc... so he may seem like an attractive character... but if you investigate the general context, his ideology was mostly bullshit.

(Besides from the fact that he has spent decades self-boycotting his own freedom... he would be out of jail if he wanted to, but he doesn't... being the paranoid that he is, he's absolutely scared of getting out of jail).

Ghislain
12-11-2015, 04:33 AM
Manson was definitely not playing from a full deck of cards, but what he says about society having made him has a ring of truth about it; it makes us all.

His remarks in the clips from the first post also make a lot of sense.

Was it his anger at society that made him do what he did, was it his lack of control all his life that incited him to control others?

I imagine that his ego played a large part in his targeting of celebrities, feeling let down by Dennis Wilson in respect of his music.

Repeat prison sentence's as a child probably didn't help; serving seven years for forging a $40 something cheque, ludicrous! What does that say about a society?

I think circumstances and society created Manson, but I think on reflection, and he's had a lot of time for that, he has seen the error of our ways. They can't be the error of his ways as his ego wouldn't allow that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaNYB0a6ajo

Ghislain

Illen A. Cluf
12-13-2015, 09:02 PM
My own thoughts are that Manson's comments are not at all that advanced. Perhaps a little more philosophical than the average population, but certainly not even close to the master level. He has just had a lot of time to reflect while in prison, since he says that he rarely reads.

As for society making him what he is, he is totally delusional about that. He just needs someone to blame besides himself because he can never take responsibility for his own actions. Everyone goes through the rules, expectations and temptations that society places on all of us, and if we all gave in as easily as he did, there would be a lot of more Manson's around. Granted, he might not have got as much guidance from loving parents and friends as many others get, but there are many with even less support that rise above these temptations. He was just overly selfish, egotistical, lazy (he had other people do all his dirty work), irresponsible and undisciplined. That is what led him to become who he became. It is our own free will and determination that fights against all those constant temptations and copes with the sometimes ridiculous rules of society. That is what let's us rise over what is often called "evil" and is part of our purpose in life according to the ancient masters - to learn to get over those physical temptations and rise above them. He also has a very convincing, manipulative, crafty nature (which some people erroneously call "charm"). Believe me - he is very deliberately manipulating the audience in his talks, just as he has always done. Look beyond that fake charm.

Let's not worship this loser. There's still a lot of derangement behind his facade.

Awani
12-13-2015, 09:25 PM
I would not worship anyone. But I do think Manson is smarter than most people give him credit... and far smarter than average joe.

Certainly not "pure evil" and "mass murderer" and "serial killer" like the media portray him. Those are lies.

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
12-13-2015, 09:33 PM
I would not worship anyone. But I do think Manson is smarter than most people give him credit... and far smarter than average joe.

Certainly not "pure evil" and "mass murderer" and "serial killer" like the media portray him. Those are lies.

:cool:

I agree - the media lies and/or distorts the truth regularly. He is also smarter than the average person, but then again, that doesn't say much. The average person is incredibly, unbelievably "dumb" and uninformed. That's why Democracy will never work - it is only as "smart" as the dumb average.

Awani
12-13-2015, 09:53 PM
That's why Democracy will never work - it is only as "smart" as the dumb average.

Nice to not be alone with this theory.

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
12-13-2015, 11:30 PM
Nice to not be alone with this theory.

:cool:

You are one of the very few I know who have recognized this theory.

Andro
12-14-2015, 09:50 AM
On a tangent:

Aquarius (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3768572/)


A gritty 1960s cop drama about a cop who goes undercover to track Charles Manson and the Manson Family before their infamous murder spree.

Watching it now. Very good writing & acting, IMO.

Ghislain
12-14-2015, 01:56 PM
Is there a dumb average or do people have different values.

Before I go on let me say that I have the same thought as those above, that the masses are generally dumb and easily led, but...there is always a but ;)...is it that people realise the truth of a situation and don't really care so long as it doesn't interfere with what they value?

If someone has buried their life in the love of Ponies for instance and I try to talk to them about fishing, they may pay me some polite lip service, but are actually waiting for me to finish so they can occupy their mind with more Pony stuff.

My interest is looking at the atrocities happening throughout the world and trying to bring peoples attention to them, but they are just thinking, "what has this got to do with Ponies?"; very frustrating...fuck the Ponies, people are dying! "are the Ponies dying? :eek:"

The best one is, "there's nothing we can do about it?" :confused: I give up.


Ghislain

Illen A. Cluf
12-14-2015, 03:10 PM
Yes, there are at least five main responses:

1) There's nothing a single person can do about it, so why worry?
2) There's always someone else who will do the fighting for me, so why should I bother?
3) As long as I can watch TV and drink beer, it hasn't affected MY life, so who cares?
4) I'm more focused on immediate issues/interests (e.g hobbies, recent death in family, health issues, etc.)
5) I don't get newspapers, don't watch TV, so have no interest in world events.

All of these spell out selfishness, and a lack of self-responsibility and/or concern for others. These people only care about themselves and have no regard for the future welfare of the children of today or their offspring. To me, that is part of the definition of "dumb". These people just don't bother to think out the long-reaching consequences of their actions and are not so different from the criminal mind, such as Manson.