View Full Version : Question regarding fundamentals which I canīt find satisfying answers to

12-17-2015, 04:06 PM
I am fairly new to this community and to alchemy as a concious approach and did not find answers to these questions in the threads here/google/alch. or herm. texts/etc.
I would greatly appreciate any opinion or forwarding to material regarding these questions.

1) To my understanding the general path of choosing in internal alchemy is to go up the scale or to purify body,mind and soul more and more or to raise the vibration of one self more or to defeat the red king(ego) and the thin king (thinking/mind) to reach the universal king or to transmute oneself up to "gold" or the spiritus mundi or...

generally as I see it they are all of the same mindset,a holistic and balanced one.BUT what about the polarization of this,the path "alchemist" choose who choose ritual sacrifice of other lifes,ego and the binding of ones concious/soul to "entities,spirits,etc"

If the path towards love seeks immortality(mind or body not relevant) through raising the vibration and thereby loosing ones own material and spiritual density than the path towards fear/hate seeks immortality through lowering the vibration and thereby enhancing ones own material and spiritual density.Since the polarity must be true for the basis to be true as well.

It makes sense to my understanding to choose the love pole and trying to reach other planes of mind and body by raising ones vibration high enough to begin resonating with the lowest vibration with the next highest plane.BUT than equally there must be a path to enlightenment through murder,hate,violence and ego.And this means there must be either also lower planes than this one OR an equal way to the next higher plane than by the path of love.But in all text I find they always say this is the lowest plane in the universe inducing the believe one can only go up...but how can I appreciate the path of love upwards if I dont have anything but contradictories and incomplete concept about the path downwards.
Further on for giving practical examples for this,the elite (not all obv.) who are claimed to sacrifice children and torture/eat them etc I dont believe these people are fools and I dont believe all of there mannerism can be explained through mere sadism and lastly even if "demons" etc exist I dont believe these elite would "offer there soul" in exchange for servitude or just mere promises(hard to bullshit a bullshitter even if you are far smarter because of the general lack of trust in any bullshitter)
I believe that these elite are practicing some alchemical general practice which goes the other way to enlightenment and immortality and I believe it must even be possible for them to achieve this path.If you want light than earth-water-wind-fire in ascending energy and loosing density is cosmologically viewing the same(just polarity)of wanting to reach light through going down or backwards fire-wind-water-earth descending energy and enhancing density,since all is just a circle.

So I would suspect the "backhanded" path would be not purification but calcination.
Ergo also the body and ego would be strenghtened and not the soul(or rather not the love since a cruel soul can still be strong)thereby these people would seek methods of obtaining life force/ spiritus mundi in condensed form with negative emotions which resonates with them and therefor can be processed to own life force....condensed life force and negative emotions JUST the thing you get from drinking the blood of a fresh sacrificed life..coincidence?

Are there materials about the backhanded or "satanic" path and what kind of immortality they seek?And please only if the source can give clear and in detail describtions like most hermetic text do on the matter of ascension but when it comes to decension I never found anything more than just saying its bad,they are fooled etc ascension mentions clearly the different stages but the most about decension has been hidden from the public concious,or mine at least.
As long as I cant understand the path downwards I cant believe ever being told the full truth about the path upwards.

2) mediums and demonic possessed people or for the reason of discussion the before mentioned elite who practice these kind of "approaches" are said to be dumb and mentally weak.BUT following the hermetic principles it would mean that these people are actually using a quite genius and bold method...just so dangerous and with so many repercussion that it truely is dumb viewed from the outside.

all is concious and vibration.so if entities/ghost etc exist than they must vibrate different from us and have different concious because otherwise we either all could experience/see them or become them.So basically this entity or energy for this matter will either raise or lower the vibration and the conciosness from the medium which will result in positive(visions etc) or negative(destruction of body/soul)outcomes.

so in theory it must be possible to reach enlightenment and ascension through being the host for a spirit/demon/angel etc.Because everything resonates with everything to a certain degree and if I have such an entity "inside" me than my body,mind and soul will also resonate and seek harmony or the status quo.thereby a medium with a high vibrating entity inside will over time come to vibrate exactly like the entity unless one devours/consumes the other in the process.Thereby possession should also be one branch of the backhanded alchemical path.There are thousands of books about demon worship etc but I found none which explained these matter from an alchemical/hermetic view and/or gave more than instructions without explanation.
Does anybody know anything regarding this subject?

In general I find it very odd and suspicious that it takes 10 seconds to find everything regarding(supposedly)the only scripts left behind by hermes trismegistus BUT ALL of it only shows the path upwards in some way or another.It is simply not possible that there is no path downwards because it would violate all hermetic principles.Thereby I believe that I will not be able to truely grasp and accept the path of love I want to choose if I donīt tackle these matters now at the base or start of the rest of my life I wish to live in accordance with hermetic/alchemic principles.

Sorry for the text but I donīt know how to express clearly what I mean shorter.I really appreciate anyone even taking the time reading it!

12-17-2015, 06:21 PM
As above so below. Path down is essentially the path up. ;)

But to save you some time my advice, which is futile as the path can only be found by the self, is that "positive" direction is always more powerful than "negative" direction.

Physically immortality is impossible and also pointless. You are already immortal. This life is a temporary experience. And ascension is stronger than "going down". But harder. It is harder to climb than to fall, but regardless you will end up in the same place eventually.

Sometimes it is easier to see the light in the darkness than in daylight.

A demon is a higher spirit. So strange to us that it might seem "bad" but such moral opinions are relative in the infinite cosmos. And everything is a part of everything so to worship a demon is to essentially worship a part of yourself. And what parts of yourself do you really want to empower?

Hope that helps. This is just how I see it. The "truth" is for you to find.


12-17-2015, 06:23 PM
You may look at it like colour...

A particular colour will absorb all spectrums of light except the colour frequency it emits. We can look at multi coloured objects and classify them as being all alike until we look closer under certain conditions.

Dark objects in sunlight get hot, bright objects not so much...what goes on inside those that absorb a lot of light? I've never checked.

So when we look at large groups of people, is there a way to tell where they are spiritually...possibly, but I've never checked.

Is it as difficult to travel downwards as it is to ascend? There is no gravity involved ;)

Sorry if that's not pertinent to your question; it was just a thought.


12-17-2015, 07:03 PM
thank you to both of you...just what I "feared" joining a alchemy forum, in the end I am left with more questions than I began with...wonderful XD.

there are many things regarding your replies which I have a different opinion as of this point which is why I wold appreciate to further discuss some of the peculiarities.Because as I view it this is not yet the answer I am seeking for.

@ dev

-I agree that the positive path is harder but the better(my own choice) and I agree that in the great end of all the path up and down have to end at the same destination.
-I believe physical immortality to be possible.in theory it should be possible.according to hermetics it should be possible.according to the mechanism of or body it should be possible.Further on I have read (but canīt verify a single one obv) of immortal yogis in india of immortal monks/taoist in the himmalayas and tibet.I have read from ancient ascetics from the deepest amazon/maya period to recent western accounts of alchemists/doctors/free masons who all fond a way to rid the body of it impurities...naturally finding such a way in and of itself qualifies for an equal intellect and strong soul.
I agree there is no point of phys. immortality if one can carry on ones memories and essence to another "better" vehicle but still the back handed alchemic path of bodily immortality will hold answers which are simply ignored in the "normal" path upwards and I want to know why.
-I agree I should not judge the entity for the acts of humans I deem cruel,and since I ment to encompass the "good" and the "bad" entities just to iliterate the point of a being with higher vibration I did not care enough to formlate this precise,for this my apologies

I really appreciate your opinion so far but that is exactly what I ment with vage concepts about why one is good and the other bad when there are 100 alchemical books which explain the path up in minute detail but the one out there about the path down are mostly disinfo or imcomplete or just interpret meanings in symbols as it fits their narrative withot any foundation for example the stages of initiation like the night of the soul/albeido being the first up...whats the first down???is there even one text that mentions even that?

@ ghislain

your right ALL of it has nothing to do with my question which pains me because 2 of the things you mentioned are so interesting that I have to think about them as well now XDXD thanks for that ^^

12-17-2015, 07:19 PM
The reason you get more questions is because no one can give you the answer. It can only be discovered by the self. We can only support or suggest but essentially it is your problem to solve. IMO.

Regarding immortality look at this thread: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?978-The-Philosopher-s-Stone-and-Immortality

As for the down path all I can say is:

“Those who say they will die first and then rise are in error. If they do not first receive the resurrection while they live, when they die they will receive nothing.” - Gospel of Philip

Maybe I sound cryptic but really I cannot be anymore clear. ;)


12-17-2015, 07:34 PM
@ dev thank you again I think I understand what you are saying and I agree.But still I do think there are many people who can give me the answers I seek XD.For instance hermes trismegists could give me the anwer himself if I had his other "lost" teachings.Also people who have come across similar literature can give me the answer as can practioners and other who come across.

Please understand,I am sorry for being unclear before,I dont seek the answers to my own path I know nobody can give them to me.what I am doing right now is creating my own personal map for the path upwards I choose.I dont seek the answers.Just the literature which must exist.

Just like very well every other alchemical answer upwards can and is found.the answer that all answer are fond within oneself is also found in alchemical text regarding the pwards path,as are the 7 hermetic principles and the stages of initiation just as basics.so there must and will be stages of initiation downward and matching principles and they are not answers one meerely can rely on oneself to gain but they are teachings and accmulated wisdom which can be read,understood and than transformed into ones own truth

12-17-2015, 07:39 PM
Well I think it is the same stages down as up, like the maxim says: as above so below.

Personally I would look into the gnostic texts, the Dead Sea scrolls in particular Gospel of Phillip and Gospel of Thomas. But I am sure others in the forum has some good tips maybe more fitting to what you are asking for.

The Golden Chain of Homer and The Kybalion are good options also.


12-17-2015, 07:51 PM
thanks mate will look them up for sure since my instinct tells me that gnostic should hold more of the backhanded alchemical path than hermeticism.

Reading homers golden chain since yesterday and its so epic that I am taking the time to read and absorb only 1 principle each day to make a ritual and thereby densining of the information itself XD.
the kybalion got me started and also was the reason why I am so fixated on finding the backhanded path...the kybalion to me is like a work of beauty and art in and of itself complete/hermetic like the name suggest BUT than I looked deeper and believed to see that althogh the principles and teachings are correct and thereby truely complete in itself still the other side of the coin/50% is missing completely....shocked me how it is hidden in plane sight.Because nobody wold choose the negative path it is jst put of as the path of the fools and cruel it is just not mentioned. But hermetic means complete and how can I build a solid foundation if 50% of the teachings in almost ALL hermetic scripts is missing...seems like some individuals at some point decided to hide the missing of this information in a flood of hermetic texts containing the upwards path

12-17-2015, 07:55 PM
You might like Sufism and the poetry of Rumi as well.

For example:

Little by little, wean yourself. This is the gist of what I have to say. From an embryo, whose nourishment comes in the blood, move to an infant drinking milk, to a child on solid food, to a searcher after wisdom, to a hunter of more invisible game.
Think how it is to have a conversation with an embryo. You might say, "The world outside is vast and intricate. There are wheatfields and mountain passes, and orchards in bloom. At night there are millions of galaxies, and in sunlight the beauty of friends dancing at a wedding."
You ask the embryo why he, or she, stays cooped up in the dark with eyes closed. Listen to the answer.
There is no "other world." I only know what I've experienced. You must be hallucinating.


12-17-2015, 07:59 PM
"Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest." - Gospel of Thomas



12-17-2015, 08:06 PM
I like the poem/sufism ? donīt know very much words with rhythmus the unification of the male and the female the logical,rational aspect of words and meanings combined with the structurless underlyng intuitive carrier like rhythm or music....untill this second i never considered that stories are male and music is female by nature and that poesy is the alchemical marriage of both of them...now I also nderstand why in ancient times it was said that only poets and priest can attain enlightenment...and now I understand why priest did not achieve enlightenment,they were cut off of the female principle there own intuition and drive..by following the chrch and religion they never once walked their own path and therefor never could reach any destination...thank you for being a great inspiration so far!

12-17-2015, 10:51 PM
There are some interesting concepts described on the negative path here: http://www.lawofone.info/ (the Ra material), although I doubt that this material is real and not "made up".

Also, Taoist stories mention various things about it, mainly in the form of "sexual vampirism" (if you consider this path negative enough). For example you could take a look in this book: "The Sexual Teachings of the White Tigress: Secrets of the Female Taoist Masters" which describes techniques for women to reach Illumination by absorbing and depleting the male essence.

12-17-2015, 11:56 PM
thank you very much!Have to take my time looking through the material so the simplicity of the thank you canīt represent the value of information yet :)

12-18-2015, 12:49 PM
I like the poem/sufism ? donīt know very much words with rhythmus the unification of the male and the female the logical,rational aspect of words and meanings combined with the structurless underlyng intuitive carrier like rhythm or music....untill this second i never considered that stories are male and music is female by nature and that poesy is the alchemical marriage of both of them...now I also nderstand why in ancient times it was said that only poets and priest can attain enlightenment...and now I understand why priest did not achieve enlightenment,they were cut off of the female principle there own intuition and drive..by following the chrch and religion they never once walked their own path and therefor never could reach any destination...thank you for being a great inspiration so far!

That's a nice point I never thought about. Perfect example of how these forums work. We are all teachers and students. :)



I moved the two posts following this one to the thread The Philosopher's Stone and Immortality (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?978-The-Philosopher-s-Stone-and-Immortality), because they dealt with the possibility of physical immortality, which is a debate/field of its own. ;)

12-22-2015, 09:34 PM
Continued from HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4591-The-boy-who-played-with-fusion&p=40056#post40056).

And now I understand what one of the answers to this thread about the back handed alchemical path I started should be.
The first stage/step towards ascension is claimed as the night of the soul albedo where one is confronted with the ego and all "dark" or "negative" aspects of the soul/memory/past. Then the first stage of the back handed path is to the choosing of the student either the implosion/void path as in eradicating every "light" "positive" aspect of oneself or the explosion/creation path as in strengthening every mind,ego and mental aspect only in discarding the love/soul/heart aspects completely. So where albedo is completed with the death of psyche/ego/self and birth of universal consciousness then I don't know maybe negredo in the back handed alchemical path is completed with the death of unity/love/emotion and the birth of the "tyrannical consciousness" or the being one in oneself in contrast to being one with oneself.

1. How would you best explain "tyrannical consciousness"?

the night of the soul albedoDo you mean Nigredo (black stage)?

12-22-2015, 10:11 PM
2.Your absolutely right.right concept wrong name.And the sad thing is I was almost sure of naming it wrong but still was to lazy to check it up while in the flow of writing...another aspect I have to work on ^^.

1. with one word domination.Following the hermetic principle in its plainest form it should be the exact inversion or polarization.Normaly,at least to my knowledge,it is believed the inversion of love to be fear in its absolut and hate in its moderate.So the inversion of the path of love or rather the pathway direction of love(since there are endless paths towards any end or destination) which would be ascension/enlightenment/immortality should be a path of fear or hate.BUT a backhanded or "evil" spiritual path is still a spiritual path and there is no spiritual path without the need for advancement,control,insight.All things which are fundamentaly lacking in fear (epitomy of the female principle and a lack of control) and hate (epitomy of male principle of lack of control like rage).So the backhanded alchemistic path must be one were an equivalent of spiritual growth compared to the path of love can and must be achieved since both must end at the same destination being neither good nor evil but all as in the all.
Love is freedom.Domination is the inversion of freedom and the contrary to love BUT it still requires control and spiritual growth.Achievieng everything by letting things flow and try to understand and achieving everthing by simple possession and the energy and insight this requires are diffrent sides of the same coin,achieving everything and thereby advancing up or down ascension or descension.

These principles are reflected in the way society as a whole,families as a smaller and mind conciousness as an individual have alwas worked.
the tyrant or the Guru
domination or freedom.

Tyrannical souvereign is a phrase I came across reading chinese fiction wuxia novels which strangely are filled with alchemic expressions and deeper meanings.And that is exactly which this term expresses in my mind.Absolute domination or the outmost spiritual inversion of love and freedom.