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Awani
01-08-2016, 05:55 AM
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/Unknown_zpsvkpfddrn.jpeg

Ok it's fucking time to get down to business. Been putting this off for a long time...

I have known about bitcoin for a long time and at first it can be daunting to understand it, but once you fully grasp it (as I have, although don't ask me how the actually algorithm works) then it is truly a work of art - and most importantly a big fuck you to the illusionary banking industry.


Bitcoin is a digital asset and a payment system invented by the mysterious Satoshi Nakamoto, who published the invention in 2008 and released it as open-source software in 2009. The system is peer-to-peer; users can transact directly without an intermediary.

There are only 21 million Bitcoins. More Bitcoins can't be created so there can not be inflation. It is not backed by gold, but gold is not a stable source of value.

What is value? What people deem valuable. That means the more people use Bitcoins (and not sit on them) the more value they get. So this thread is also propagandha to get you all to be aware of it. As you become aware (if you are not already) you add value. ;)

How are Bitcoins created? Well this I found was very complicated, but really it is very easy. Everyone can "mine" for Bitcoin using their computer. But because of the rise in popularity the power of just a PC is not enough to ever create a Bitcoin because you only get "paid" if you suppy enough calculating power to the Bitcoin "system".

Basically it is like seeding. When you download a movie from PirateBay you can leave it open so others can also download it quicker. Same concept. You basically seed in a sense. And the more you seed the more you get paid.

So to mine for Bitcoin you need an ASIC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application-specific_integrated_circuit). And it needs to put out at least 1 TH/s, which is 1,000,000,000,000 hashes (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hash) per second.

Such a piece of machine costs about 1000 USD.

Now power is the trick... if your electricity is expensive (as in the USA I think, correct me if I am wrong) mining for Bitcoin might not be viable, unless you can "steal" power or create your own (wind or solar). Where I am power is pretty cheap, 0,11 cents per kWh.

Here is a Bitcoin mining calculator: bitcoin-mining-calculator (http://www.coinwarz.com/calculators/bitcoin-mining-calculator)

According to my calculations it is possible to make at least 1000 USD per year per AISC. if the Bitcoin market is fairly stable, which it actually is compared to other markets).

This means if you have 100 AISC you can potentially make a shitload of money. But if you do this you are no longer mining, you are farming! ;)

There are a lot more aspects to this and what I have outlined here are just the tip of the iceberg. There are a lot of YouTube videos on all this if you want to understand more.

-------------------------------------------

Why am I interested in Bitcoin?

Well it is actually not the possibility of making money, although that is very nice... but I like Bitcoin for the same reason I like anything not controlled by middle-men. It is truly the way of the future in the same way as I believe in VR (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4540-Otherland-(the-Rift-is-coming)). And it is very good for the underdeveloped world. It is not easy to "work" with banks if you are poor, but with Bitcoin you only need an internet connection on your phone (which most people have, even the poor).

"Bitcoin will do to banks what email did to the postal industry" - Rick Falkvinge, Founder of the Swedish pirate party

“I do think Bitcoin is the first [encrypted money] that has the potential to do something like change the world." - Peter Thiel, Co-Founder of Paypal

"[Bitcoin] is a techno tour de force." - Bill Gates, Founder of Microsoft

:cool:

zoas23
01-08-2016, 07:21 AM
Take care with the Bitcoins!

It's not a good or safe investment. A somehow close friend who worships the internet as if it was a God invested most of his money in bitcoins.... he lost 2/3 of his money.

http://blog.cex.io/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/market-price.png

As an abstraction, you may like them... but as a long term investment.... it's really risky.

They are, however, good for anonymous purchases... but it is safer to get them directly before the purchase rather than storing them (unless you like gambling and that's fine).

JDP
01-08-2016, 09:54 AM
It is not backed by gold, but gold is not a stable source of value.

Actually it still is. A lot of people invest in gold, specially during times of economic crisis. But you just wait until I get done with it after I discover how to make the Stone and eventually flood the market with gold (while my pockets, safety deposit boxes and foreign numbered bank accounts are filled with cash, and I invest a lot of it in real estate.) It won't be worth a penny. ;)

Andro
01-08-2016, 11:07 AM
The main (if not only) 'commodity' in this VR market place is perception. It's different in the non-VR 'market', but that's another topic.

(Almost) nothing has intrinsic value, only the perception of value. Not even gold (when closed in its metallic cage), especially after JDP will flood the market.

And of course real estate as well (see 2008-2009). Like Brad Pitt's character in the movie 'The Big Short (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1596363/)' says, the next currency is likely to be organic seeds...

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but what better way to do away with 'tangible' (not computer/internet dependent) currencies (that are harder to 'legally' steal i.e. tax) than to create (or hijack) a completely virtual currency, give it a kool grassroots spin/hype, have it endorsed by a few billionaires (Gates, Thiel) and voila, 'Brave New World' is one step closer :)

I don't even have a 'SmartPhone', but I'm occasionally feeling 'peer pressure' and institutional pressure to get one, as it's increasingly difficult to conduct one's affairs without those gizmos...

I was even late to get a PC and even later to have Internet... My days before those things were behind the shadow of a doubt more creative, I had more genuine communication with people, my psychic/telepathic channels were FAR more open than today... you get the picture. Although I use the tech today to some extent, what we're being sold as 'progress' (in the marketplace of perception) might as well be regression in disguise and actually pave the road to Idiocracy. The signs are already here.

The popular counterargument is "it's not the tech, it's what people do with it". Let's have a look around, then...

It's information/data/call it what you will that keeps us from KNOWING. But it's so damn convenient :)

Awani
01-08-2016, 04:49 PM
There is no risk because how can something that does not really exist be lost.

At the core Bitcoin is not about making money, it is about paradigm shifts.

The monetary institutions are irrelevant.

:cool:

theFool
01-08-2016, 05:34 PM
Cryptocurrencies might lose their value with the upcoming advent of quantum computing. This may take a few years (or more ..) from today, but it will eventually come. That day the company (or agency ..) who builds the quantum computer first, will be able to counterfeit or steal the cryptocurrency from random people thus destroying the trust to it (and in consequence its value). Until then, I find it very difficult for bitcoin to stop existing or lose value. It is designed to withstand the attacks pretty well (peer to peer and encrypted). In fact, I think that the value will continue to rise especially since the popularity increases and the amount of issued coins over time nears to zero. (so, good luck dev, it worths the risk!)

It also has some intrinsic properties that no other currency has. It is anonymous and cannot be confiscated at borders or by tax collectors. Would you "pay" to have it? Well, some people do ... and this creates "value".

Andro
01-08-2016, 07:14 PM
It is anonymous and cannot be confiscated at borders

I don't think anything can be anonymous, even more so on the Internet...

Also, confiscation - who says it has to be done at ('physical') borders?

A paradigm shift involves all the aspects that it touches, so it can easily also involve a paradigm shift in methods of taxation/confiscation :).

PayPal, for example, is a financial institution, virtually a bank that has to comply with ever increasing regulations.

Stripe (https://stripe.com/bitcoin), a relatively new payment platform that is founded/financed by the same people who created PayPal (Thiel, Musk), also includes Bitcoin payments.

From the Stripe website:
Bitcoin payments are integrated into the same reporting (https://dashboard.stripe.com) as credit cards.

I suspect it won't stop at this. Other balancing/counterbalancing factors will enter to maintain the illusion of a Status Quo, by the perpetual shape-shifting of old concepts into new (more appealing) forms.

Only the UnCreated cannot be confiscated :) (or otherwise tampered with).
______
I.M.S.I.

theFool
01-08-2016, 09:03 PM
I don't think anything can be anonymous, even more so on the Internet...

Also, confiscation - who says it has to be done at ('physical') borders?
Compared to bank transactions it is much more anonymous. No name or ID is required to do a transaction. If they want to find your name they have to monitor and analyze internet data at least. It cannot be confiscated like gold or banknotes if you go from country to country.

Also, it is not like paypal or any other kind of centralized electronic currency. For example, all the transactions are kept in a big file (GBytes) existing at every computer that runs the bitcoin software. This means that millions of computers know how much money you have. Confiscation would mean that someone acquires control over all those million computers; almost impossible. Also, in case they try to impersonate you and take your money through a transaction, they will stumble accross the encryption. If you don't give them your cryptokey, it is over. In other words, they have to blackmail/torture someone in order to steal the money. Maybe possible for few cases but not plausible in grand scale. Much more difficult to do compared to bank account confiscations throughout a whole country for example (or printing new banknotes, etc..).

Well, nothing is absolutely anonymous and confiscation-proof but cryptocurrencies seem to be very close to it.

thoth
01-08-2016, 09:27 PM
The TV show "The Good Wife" had a good take on it, where the federal reserve tried to close down bitcoin.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2148561/

The sunday times also had a good article on it
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/Magazine/article1379779.ece

I see both paper currency & bitcoin as belief systems, but at least bitcoin, transfers more power to the individual.
It also depends on the environment. In a famine area, Potatoes would be more valuable than Gold

zoas23
01-09-2016, 01:10 AM
There is no risk because how can something that does not really exist be lost.
At the core Bitcoin is not about making money, it is about paradigm shifts.
The monetary institutions are irrelevant.


It is not 100% true that it does not exist in practical terms.

Somebody mentioned taxes and bitcoins... for those who don't understand clearly what they are, bitcoins are not exactly a currency, but something that acts like a currency.
This is a metaphor, but it's also quite literal: imagine that you play one of those "collective videogames" and you can make money in that videogame to purchase stuff that exists in the virtual world of the videogame.

i.e, something like that happened some years ago with the videogame second life, which featured a "virtual world" and it was possible to buy things with the "virtual money" that the game used, this virtual money could be produced by buying it with "real money" or by "virtually working" in the virtual world of the game. that existed. i.e, people could buy virtual houses for their characters, clothes, pets, etc. When the game became popular, some people open real estate agencies to buy and sell houses, but they began to sell them using "real money"... so the "virtual money" of second life became equivalent to a "real currency". When the popularity of the game decayed, the ones who invested in houses lost their "real money".

The bitcoins work very much like second life "virtual money" or any other collective videogame, except that the "fun" part of it is irrelevant ("mining" isn't fun, it does not have an entertainment purpose). However the bitcoins are IDENTICAL to the "virtual money" of any videogame. I don't know the legal status of the bitcoins in each country, but in some countries they are not different than the "virtual money" of any videogame, thus you do not need to declare them to the government... in the same way that you don't need to declare which one is your rank in the candy crush games (if you happen to play them).

HOWEVER you can "lose" money, since it's true that their value depends a lot on "perception"... but it does have an "exchange value".
I.e, if you are saving dollars to buy a house and you decide to switch to bitcoins and use them to store your money until you have enough to buy a house... Well, if the bitcoins value goes down, you probably won't be able to buy the house.

(i.e, the real case of my friend is that he wanted to take a one year vacations in Europe and decided to exchange all his money for bitcoins... the value of the bitcoins fell and he couldn't have the vacations he wanted... he would have been able to have them if he had chosen a different currency).

You are in love with the "virtuality" of them, Dev... but they have an exchange value (if they didn't, then they would not make any sense).

Other than that, they are for sure not the "anti-capitalist" currency of the future... They don't really change the rules of traditional capitalism as it exists today... I don't think they are a "paradigm shift".

Awani
01-09-2016, 02:11 AM
...decided to exchange all his money for bitcoins... the value of the bitcoins fell and he couldn't have the vacations he wanted... he would have been able to have them if he had chosen a different currency...

Well this is the same for any currency. Also it is his own fault for gambling with money he needs. All true gamblers know that you only bet what you don't need.


Well, if the bitcoins value goes down, you probably won't be able to buy the house.

And if it goes up buy two houses.


Other than that, they are for sure not the "anti-capitalist" currency of the future...

Who said we should have that? I am 100 % for a real free market.


I don't think they are a "paradigm shift".

We'll just going to have to wait and see... ;)


A paradigm shift involves all the aspects that it touches, so it can easily also involve a paradigm shift in methods of taxation/confiscation :).

You know people had the same issues and ideas with Email and the Internet. It does not matter really if people like or dislike cryptocurrencies... it will become reality! Just like VR!

Either you "run with it" or you get dragged behind it.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I still think that the most important aspect of cryptocurrencies, and especially the genius of the Bitcoin algorithm, is not appreciated for what it means for the world - not in monetary terms - but in empowering terms. Like I said it is not about money, it is about freedom. And it is about sticking it to the man.

Who cares if the CIA invented Bitcoin... they probably invented the Internet. So what? No one ever heard of the tale of Frankenstein?

:cool:

Awani
01-09-2016, 02:19 AM
...nothing is absolutely anonymous and confiscation-proof but cryptocurrencies seem to be very close to it.


I see both paper currency & bitcoin as belief systems, but at least bitcoin, transfers more power to the individual.

Yes.

For a good general overview have a look at: Bitcoin: The End of Money As We Know It (http://viooz.ac/movies/27439-bitcoin-the-end-of-money-as-we-know-it-2015.html)

:cool:

JDP
01-09-2016, 10:39 AM
PayPal, for example, is a financial institution, virtually a bank that has to comply with ever increasing regulations.

So far it looks like taxes do not apply to certain amounts of money (I think the limit is $20,000) being held as "balance" in your PayPal account. For many years I have had varying amounts of money (sometimes well in excess of $1,000) in it and the IRS does not know about it, or if they do they apparently can't do anything about it, because I have never had any notifications regarding this "undeclared" income. If you move these funds to your bank account, though, things are quite different and you must report this income. PayPal Balance is almost as if it was a virtual safety deposit box where you can keep your virtual cash in, as long as you do not exceed the limit.

zoas23
01-16-2016, 09:55 AM
Something that a friend of mine who is a damn genius when it comes to computers and programming posted on his facebook:

https://medium.com/@octskyward/the-resolution-of-the-bitcoin-experiment-dabb30201f7#.884tphogf

(This friend of mine is a person who works as a freelance programmer who checks the software that huge banks use... and one of the main experts of the world when it comes to encrypted software -also "famous" for having created a software that calculates the astrological heaven for any given time, does all the Shemhamphorasch calculations possible, places the tatttwas in the chart and also integrates the 28 moon houses... he programmed it in a single night -it's only available for his friends, since it is stored in his computer and he has no intention of making it public)... all these nonsensical descriptions of him are simply to explain that he does not post bullshit when it comes to computers.

Awani
01-16-2016, 11:57 AM
https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoinobituaries/

Also if it is Bitcoin or some other crypto cash is irrelevant, but it is easy to find any side to the argument online.

My "go to" source has always been Andreas Antonopoulos:


I disagree with Mike Hearn's analysis and concerns... I thank him for all his work and wish him all the best. Onwards

Bitcoin's invention was an engineering solution to a governance problem. We can solve bitcoin's governance challenges with more engineering.

Best way to respond to all the drama in bitcoin is to focus. Buckle down, work, don't get distracted. Engineering solves problems. Code On!

:cool: