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Awani
02-08-2016, 09:41 PM
I am sure you have heard of the concept "walk the talk". I for one no longer think there is any merit in such a concept.

Perfect example: John Lennon sings about peace, love and no possessions. But he was very rich and apprently mistreated his child.

So what?

How does that stain his message? Every single human being alive is crippled by weakness - some more or less. That is why we are here. In this game, this experience.

Another example (but this point I am making can be applied to anything):

If a heavy smoker preach that smoking is bad for your health he is a hypocrite. Is he? No he is not. The wisdom is true. Smoking cigarettes is not good for your health. And even though he doesn't "walk the talk" he "stumbles the talk". He is at least in the knowing what the wisdom is, even if he fails to follow it. But he tries and at least he sends the message out into the world.

And the message is always more important than the messenger.

:cool:

Awani
09-02-2017, 10:31 PM
Here is something I have noticed (maybe others have too).

When a person does something that could be classed as positive, they always have to defend any other action they have. But a person that does NOTHING, don't have to defend anything.

I think such attacks on people that do positive things stem from the attackers inherent guilt.

For example I do a lot of work to help the environment and the rainforest, and recently I was eating lunch with a colleague. I had some Thai food with shrimps, and this fucking nitwit said: "...should you be eating shrimps considering what you do for a living..."

I said nothing and smiled, and ate the shrimp. But what I really could have said was:

"...oh really, what about the leather in your shoes? What about the children who made that shirt, what about the chemicals that dyed your trousers blue, what about... actually it does not matter about those things because you are just a fucking consumer and add nothing to anything... cunt..."

You see, when someone does something positive [no matter what it is], small minded people always have to find a fault with that person. This is very common.

Humans are sooooo boring.

:p

Axismundi000
09-02-2017, 11:43 PM
Perhaps when people are attacked for doing a thing it is because of the threat of uncertainty it produces. What I mean by this is if a person or group choose a failure outcome but this is in some way manageable they have achieved certainty and have a comfort zone. If someone try's to do a thing that could lead to either success or failure they produce anxiety in others, loss of certainty and no comfort zone. So the doing person becomes a threat to the 'managed failure' person or group and the response is aggression by personal attack and criticism on the person doing a thing.

Hmmmmm I shall try to be more succinct. Those who embrace the comforting certainty of failure are upset by those who are prepared to face uncertainty and the possibility of success. Those threatened in this way respond with aggression, cynicism and may exert pressure to force conformity.

Awani
09-03-2017, 07:43 AM
Yes I agree with that. But on a simplistic level if I would tell someone I do not drink they automatically assume I don't smoke. Or if I am a vegan they assume I don't drive a car. Or if I am a feminist they are surprised to know I like to participate in street brawls. Etc etc.

If you go out of the norm you have to live up to sainthood, but if you are the norm you will never be questioned.

:p

Axismundi000
09-03-2017, 09:00 AM
I think the social pressure towards conformity and stereotyping is increasing and also kind of flares up and has intense periods. Toffler's future shock explains why this kind of social behaviour is intensifying. As cultural norms and values change at an ever increasing pace their is a need for a stable identity as a kind of bulwark to give a person stability in an ever more bewildering social environment. This in part at least explains why a given thing eg veganism or say going to bars to have a fight are expected to be attached to a whole constellation of other values and beliefs; a paradigm. Due to this increasing future shock people adopt rigid stereotypical attitudes and beliefs and expect the same in others. By doing this people are seeking to reduce anxiety due to uncertainty caused by future shock I think.

Going slightly off topic this is one explanation for religious radicalisation that is occurring currently. If you have a teenager in a family that has immigrated to a more shall we say pluralist culture and has been raised in a traditional Muslim manner. They have the cultural adjustment of any immigrant to a different society and culture as well as the future shock effects all are experiencing in that society. This during teenage years makes them more persuadable by a simplistic religious creed (radical Islam) and can bring about radicalisation to the point of suicidal aggression.

Michael Sternbach
09-03-2017, 09:24 AM
Coming back on topic:

It's: "Do as I say, not as I do." ;)

Axismundi000
09-03-2017, 09:30 AM
I disagree Michael Sternbach I think what happens is: Do what you are 'supposed' to do and so will I. Otherwise I will become angry with you.

Awani
09-03-2017, 12:03 PM
...this is one explanation for religious radicalisation that is occurring currently...

I would not call it currently, it has been going on for a long time. The whole of the United States is built upon religious radicalisation. Radicalisation does not have to imply killing people either, but is basically a form of major brainwashing. USA is a theocracy in disguise, no doubt about it. Even if the leaders are fake-Christians, they still give the appearance of being a Christian which in turn forces the majority to adapt.

USA also has a propaganda about "supporting the tropps", which is a joke and complete bullshit. And the "greatest democracy in the world" slogan that is nailed into the spine of every American, which is also complete bullshit.

Radicalisation turned status quo I guess.

:p

Dragon's Tail
09-03-2017, 02:44 PM
I think you're on to a good point, but I also think that a lot of things come out of ignorance. For instance, the production of solar panels in the far east produces a LOT of waste products that are "harmful" to the environment, depending on your world view. The polarization of everything into "good" and "bad" I think is a driving factor, instead of seeing things in color.
I acknowledge the inherent problems with solar technology, and I know some of its dark secrets, but I'll still be buying solar panels (hopefully next year) for my property.

Like people that bitch about oil companies, but there's been almost no push to build a car that runs on other fuels. There's been some progress yes, but most of us don't want to spend $200 to "fill up the tank." And we don't want to live without an abundance of plastic.

Same goes for the "save the trees" movement. This comes up a lot in my writing groups with people not wanting to print out copies of their manuscript to edit with a pen. They always talk about how they are "saving the trees," but there are more trees in the US than there were when Columbus landed on this side of the world (I'm not speaking for Brazil or other countries). Wood products are grown for these purposes on "tree farms" (I've also seen and worked around these). And then there's the biomass question, where a proper pasture environment can produce more photosynthetic products acre for acre, but let me stop before I get too deep into that rabbit hole.

"Good" and "Bad" are the forms. They are the archetypes of these thoughts. So I don't question people's infatuation with plastic and packaging, or their polar nature. However, when I meet someone who wants to dig a little deeper, we can research and learn together, and tease a little color out of the picture. Suddenly the black and white photo becomes a colorful source of meditation on a topic, rather than jumping in to take a side and then fighting for it by screaming on social media.

I'm also a smoker who will immediately recommend that others don't start this habit.

Awani
09-03-2017, 02:50 PM
Like people that bitch about oil companies, but there's been almost no push to build a car that runs on other fuels.

Who is stopping this "push" you think? ;) Exactly.

:p

Axismundi000
09-03-2017, 04:45 PM
I have one criticism of the USA and I think all the other stuff is less important because there are countless other nations doing the same thing or worse. All I think that can be said about the USA is they are currently better at this method of doing various bad things then other countries many of whom would do the same or worse if they could.

I suggest that the USA is worse then all other countries because they are the only nation who have deliberately used nuclear weapons on civilian population by deliberately bombing Japanese cities. Irrespective of the barbarities of Japan in WW2 the use of nuclear weapons on cities, not military bases is a supreme atrocity which puts the USA head and shoulders above any other nation in the world except perhaps NAZI Germany.

All this other stuff is I suggest 'small beer' and sadly just the general kind of thing various nations do or would do if they were able. It is the application of nuclear weapons to civilians which makes the USA different I feel. As for Americans individually I have liked all of the ones I have personally met.

Awani
09-03-2017, 04:57 PM
...above any other nation in the world except perhaps NAZI Germany.

Which would not have risen to such power without the aid of American Corporations. So then there is that... and not a conspiracy. Look it up those who question this.


As for Americans individually I have liked all of the ones I have personally met.

Sure. And I only speak of the governments. People are generally only at fault in their bias, ignorance or apathy... and saying that, the Bomb would not have fallen on Japan if the American people had not allowed it. That goes for all atrocities committed by governments the world over. In the end we can only blame ourselves.

:p

Dragon's Tail
09-03-2017, 05:12 PM
Who is stopping this "push" you think? ;) Exactly.

:p

You might be surprised if you dig too deeply into that question. As for me. I choose my path. There are people who don't own a car, and bicycle to work. There are people who grow their own food and save seeds without aide from Monsanto. There are those who don't own a TV or read papers, or shop only for what they feel is needed without buying "luxuries." These people exist, and I'm happy to know a few.

For my actions and ideas I can only blame myself. I think the actions of masses of consumers influence the world more than you might think. Might I recommend the book "Trust Me, I'm Lying."

Rockefeller influenced and corrupted billions, not only by buying political influence, but also by supporting groups with "noble causes" and putting them center stage to gain control of the automobile fuel market. I'm speaking here of an early abandonment of alcohol as a fuel through both prohibition, and having a finger in legislative policies that followed. (Again, speaking from a US perspective only) Ask yourself how successful he'd be if nobody was first convinced of a "need" for automobiles. This is how most large businesses are built. Start with a product, create a need for it, and then stir up the media to call attention to it. I'm still at step two with my books, :(

Awani
09-03-2017, 05:37 PM
You might be surprised if you dig too deeply into that question.

I'm not surprised since I know.

:p

Ghislain
09-04-2017, 12:11 AM
My first thought goes to animal instinct, fight or flight, secondly to roll models and education, my third I would
give to media and who controls it.

There is a great deal of knowledge about our buttons and how to push the right ones. I am sure there have
been people who have been aware of this for a long long time, but it really came into its own when Edward
Bernays pondered public relations (PR) and the idea of consumerism.

As consumers we are the batteries of The Matrix, but the real Matrix is not a bunch of sentient machines, the
Matrix is a system. Man created the Matrix, but no one owns it, it has a life of its own and IMO has run wild;
now we have to strive to survive within its atmosphere.

I believe it is time to change the system.

Ghislain

Dragon's Tail
09-04-2017, 02:03 AM
it has a life of its own and IMO has run wild;
Ghislain

Well put. The world today is a place where everyone is their own newspaper, and with minimal work they can reach large audiences, and the system is tiered, and a breeding ground for stories that provoke the most hits, likes, and shares. Ryan Holiday call it "working a story up the chain," and he's used that tactic to manipulate the media for his own purposes.

So as I read this, when I see "change the system," I'm expecting any second for you to superman flight out of your bathroom, lol. On the other hand, since the system itself is so primed, maybe the best way to rip it apart is from the inside. You just have to find the right string and yank on it.

Ghislain
09-04-2017, 06:18 AM
Well now there's the problem DT, as I have told you before I am inherently lazy lol. I walk the line between
vexation and complacency.

Many people are content in their lives perhaps, may I infer, in blissful ignorance, many feign contentment
avoiding issues they know are there, as it is simpler than dealing with them, some, like myself, rant about the
injustices, but do too little to alleviate them.

The question is numbers; how do you convince seven billion people that the system is faulty, let alone come to
a consensus on what it should be replaced with.

My opinion is that it will take a major global catastrophe to bring the world's people together, but I live in the
hope that it won't be the case.

I like the ideas of the late futurist, industrial designer and multi-disciplinarian Jacque Fresco and The Venus
Project, but how do you convince the populace of these propositions against the monumental furtherance of
capitalism, interconnected with monetarism, by the plutocratically controlled, corporate owned, mainstream
media. How do you convince people that continuous growth is an impossible myth, that the world as they
perceive it is a lie and is about to come tumbling around their feet, when they are in denial.

In my opinion, the way forward is a resourced based economy with control handed over to AI, but then AI has
been demonised as the harbinger of death to the human race via the media: The Matrix, Terminator, I-Robot,
Transcendence, Ex-Machina, Wall-E...the list goes on and on. If AI doesn't kill us all the Muslims will; when will
people wake up and see it is all smoke and mirrors.

So, I'll sip my tea and devour my muffins while I sit and wait for the inevitable. ;)

Ghislain

Edit: Check this out and tell me if you see the funny side of it.

World Debt Clock (http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/)

Dragon's Tail
09-04-2017, 01:54 PM
I sputtered out a short story a while back that discussed a different kind of utopia/dystopia revealing the real danger to be the interconnectedness that people are pursuing through social media. I have a story about AI too. Your post amuses me because I'm one of the people that said, "You know what? I'm done. I'm just gonna go make my own stuff."

Still working on that pursuit, but there is a small trend around the world of ditching city politics and nourishing smaller communities. There's even,,, I can't remember the city, but there was an empty lot left over from a torn down building, and a small community in the city turned it into a very productive little garden based on worm farming and other permaculture techniques.

Unfortunately, I don't know if I want that to become the mainstream, because if you totally cut the profit margins that contribute to your countries (any country) GDP, then sure as matches to fire, some politicos will enact laws and red-tape to prevent it from taking hold. Big corporations supply "safety regulations" that squash small industry, and funny enough even the "buy local" people will happily endorse them, because they don't see the shell game.

That's part of the reason I don't try to change the world, only myself. People generally like being uninformed and streaming the headlines. There's a person on Facebook (and I still don't know why she sent me a friend request in the first place) who goes into panic mode every other day about something she saw on the news. I gave up trying to help her, and that was just ONE. Now imagine about 6 billion of those!

No worries though. Rome ripped itself apart, and all if this "modern magic" is only temporary. When nature has had enough, she'll let us know. ;)

Awani
09-04-2017, 03:47 PM
You cannot change the system with the same system that created the problem in the first place.

:p

Awani
09-04-2017, 03:50 PM
Rome ripped itself apart...

Actually it did not. The Roman Empire never ended. That is a delusion. In name it ended perhaps, but that is about it.

:p

Ghislain
09-04-2017, 04:24 PM
Founded in 1968, Auroville is an experimental township in India. At the outset it was hoped to have 50,000 citizens, however today it boasts a multicultural population just short of 2,500.

Auroville (City of Dawn) Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auroville)

I guess utopia cannot be created, but with education and decent role models the children may have a better future; after all, there's a whole universe to explore.

Ghislain

Ghislain
09-04-2017, 05:40 PM
This is a meme post I like on Facebook.

Critical Thinking (https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi1.wp.com%2Fglobaldigitalcitizen. org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F12%2Fultimate-critical-thinking-worksheet.jpg%3Fresize%3D725%2C1007%26ssl%3D1&f=1)

Ghislain