PDA

View Full Version : The Rosemary Magisterie



Axismundi000
03-17-2016, 07:57 PM
Here is the final steps of Rosemary Magisterie
The final distillation as the salts also come over

http://i68.tinypic.com/mjmf7k.jpg

The viscous liquid collecting in the nose of the retort

http://i65.tinypic.com/e8lcfn.jpg

The purified salts in a dish being heated to remove water of crystallisation so they can be added to the Rosemary oil in the retort.

http://i67.tinypic.com/24qibfn.jpg

Steve Kalec has written a PDF which shows a lot of the method but leaves out a part towards the end. I shall stick my neck out here and say what I did.

:- The hot salts added to the oil in the retort, the oil distilled but the temperature not further raised to distill the thick oil remaining with the salts.

:- This done 3 times, after the final rotation this oil smelling of the salts set aside in an airtight flask. The thick oil that would require a much higher temperature remains with the salts in the retort.

:- The alcohol that had been previously rectified and kept with potasium carbonate to keep as water free as possible is then added to the retort and distilled across. The temperature is raised towards the end the thicker liquid in the retort starts to distill across and also has thermal decomposition of material in the retort. This is when these 'volatised' salts come across.

:- These two liquids added together 1:1 ratio and incubated until they are done.

A lot has been made of this process and the 'volatisation' of salts. I do not see anything special or secret in this process, just basic lab method. If you boil liquid with salts in it some of the salts leave with the vapour, so this is nothing special.

zoas23
03-17-2016, 08:22 PM
Thank you for the tips.

I would like to try this method without adding the salts and compare the results as to see if the salts are really being volatilized or if the "volatilized salts" are actually coming from the oil itself.

Did you try to solve the resulting salts in water again? Do they mix with water?

Axismundi000
03-17-2016, 08:58 PM
I soaked in cold water to try and clean the retort that had a black residue (including salts). This did not seem to dissolve anything. So I then tried soapy water no use, then bleach still no result. So it could be the residue salts are insoluble but it could be that the melange of burnt stuff which contains the salts is insoluble.

BTW I stopped distilling on the final run when I began to smell burning, the whole final run of distilling over salts part required small increments of temperature increase to keep the white mist rising off the blackening matter in the retort and the gelatinous fluid collecting in the nose of the retort.

So this method uses up a retort it would seem.

The other thing that is perhaps usefull to add: The first three rotations distilling the oil left faint salt residue in the nose of the retort. The resultant oil smelled faintly of the salt mixed in with the Rosemary smell. This leads me to suspect that if there is water content in the oil it dissolves and brings across some of the salt. Also after the first three rotations of oil distilling, the volume of the salts in the retort was reduced by 15-20%.

Kiorionis
03-18-2016, 03:56 AM
A lot has been made of this process and the 'volatisation' of salts. I do not see anything special or secret in this process, just basic lab method. If you boil liquid with salts in it some of the salts leave with the vapour, so this is nothing special.

Curious. Isnt the 'trick'supposed to be in Sublimating the salts?


I soaked in cold water to try and clean the retort that had a black residue (including salts). This did not seem to dissolve anything. So I then tried soapy water no use, then bleach still no result. So it could be the residue salts are insoluble but it could be that the melange of burnt stuff which contains the salts is insoluble..

Did you try soaking them overnight in vinegar?

zoas23
03-18-2016, 06:54 AM
I The first three rotations distilling the oil left faint salt residue in the nose of the retort.

This is what I meant... if this salt residue dissolves in water or not... I don't understand if what you said that doesn't dissolve in water in the (probably burnt) residue at the bottom of the flask or the salts in the neck.


Did you try soaking them overnight in vinegar?

When no solvent seems to work and you want to "save" a flask or a retort, an alternative that often works is doing a long calcination with a strong heat (though not as strong as to break the glass)... and turn your "sticky" residue into dry ashes that will be very easy to clean. At least I've had better experiences with this method than with vinegar, bleach or acetone (but I've had a bad experience too with cleaning by calcination -a plant stone that somehow became like glass and it was impossible to separate from the ceramic... but I think that the problem was that I used much more heat than I should have used).

Andro
03-18-2016, 07:09 AM
Hi Axismundi000,

Did you manage to separate the 'volatilized' salts from the liquid?

If so, are they still water soluble? Or have they changed their properties?

It's basically simple work to 'volatilize' potash by means of an oil, however some texts (such as 'Elixir Proprietatis') specify that this is not the 'way of the Adepts', who use different ways for salt 'volatilization' in order to achieve the often described as 'miraculous' effects of their elixirs.

Here is one experiment with volatilized salt with a mixture of methods.

First, the resulting volatilized salts from the 'Steve Calec' method, also with Rosemary oil:

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/VolaRetortDetail03_zpsmosvsdm4.jpg

Then, after separating and treating with a different spirit, this new salt is clearly no longer potash.

It is insoluble in water, but soluble in SVR and Di-Ethyl Ether.

The image below shows the salt acquiring 'levity' and gradually climbing up the walls of the glass by itself, with no heat source or any other external 'mover'.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/Climbing%20Salt_zpseuvskfae.jpg

Axismundi000
03-18-2016, 08:20 AM
i didn't think to soak the burnt matter in vinegar or use a high temperature to burn off the residue to clean the retort.

The retort did have faint salt marks during the first 3 distillations but if steam distilled and separated Rosemary oil has any water in it this could be the reason. Salts did come over on the final distillation but just thinking about the simple chemistry of this some of the oil could have had saponification and this would have facilitated the distillation of some of the salts on the final distillation.

The volume of solid material in the burnt residue at the end was less then half that at the beginning so the salts must be in the liquid in some form.

Being a little blunt here I do not think there is a 'secret of the adepts' for this, it is basic chemistry and lab method.

Edit: to clarify after the first 3 oil distillations the salt volume in the retort reduced by 15-20%, the final distillation starting with alcohol and steadily raising the temperature, the final solid residue about 40 - 45% volume of starting mass of salts in flask. I look askance at this whole method and the hushed awe expressed about it. All this stuff about the salt transmuting into a non-water soluble material. My personal view could be characterised by the fairytale when the boy in the town points and says "the emperor has no clothes".

Axismundi000
03-28-2016, 04:10 PM
Curious. Isnt the 'trick'supposed to be in Sublimating the salts?

.....

I have deliberately left this thread alone for a short while so that I may give a measured response rather then a knee jerk retort.

I know the difference between the chemistry view of sublimating and the Alchemical approach to sublimating, the essential difference between them. I have no problem clearly describing this if need be. Knowing this I find it personally heinous that people try to keep this secret but are charging money for services and Alchemy products as some who have posted a response here do. I agree totally with the late Jean Dubuis that charging money for Alchemy is to the do with the pursuit of 'lucre' and will cause problems and be not adequately spiritual for progress.

Andro
03-28-2016, 04:25 PM
All this stuff about the salt transmuting into a non-water soluble material. My personal view could be characterized by the fairy-tale when the boy in the town points and says "the emperor has no clothes".

My final 'volatilized' salts (depicted above) were no longer water soluble.

In another particular experiment, not even alcohol dissolved the sublimed salts, only Di-Ethyl Ether and their own Spirit.


I know the difference between the chemistry view of sublimating and the Alchemical approach to sublimating, the essential difference between them.
I have no problem clearly describing this if need be.

How do you view the difference between the chemical approach and the alchemical one?

Axismundi000
03-28-2016, 05:23 PM
Whether or not a basic Spagyric method (Magisterie) actualy transmutes a salt is not at issue here, it does not need to be. Particularly as some material that is white after calcination is found to be insoluble in water during leaching. This same material could be what is left in the retort when the liquid soap which has the salts has distilled over.

The Chemistry definition of sublimation is that a heated material changes from solid to gas without an intervening liquid state. The Alchemical view of sublimation is entirely different the example of cinnabar (Mercury sulphide) clearly illustrates. Add Mercury to sulphur you get a black Mercury sulphide, heat this to 350-400 centigrade it changes to red but DOES NOT become gaseous. A much higher temperature is required for that and it will be black again if collected on a cooler surface, the red cinnabar is the Alchemical sublimation, the black metacinnabar made at higher temp is from chemistry sublimation. So the crystal matrix is what has changed, for brevity I simply observe that in Alchemy crystal formations are considered spiritual 'magnets'. Alchemically, sublimation does not require the solid to gas transition which is the chemical definition for sublimation. A change of solid allotrope ( in chemistry terms) to produce a different crystalline formation is instead performed. This does not preclude the solid to gas transition, rather this change does not constitute the alchemical sublimation, the solid-gas transition is a chemistry definition.

Too many people charge money for these so-called secrets in my opinion.

Axismundi000
03-28-2016, 07:34 PM
Mercury is a dangerous material the following PDF is evidence. The second paragraph on the second page relates specifically to what I have explained.

http://www.dcr.fct.unl.pt/sites/www.dcr.fct.unl.pt/files/images/FichaVermelh%C3%A3oAg2011_corr.pdf

zoas23
03-29-2016, 05:31 PM
I have deliberately left this thread alone for a short while so that I may give a measured response rather then a knee jerk retort.

I know the difference between the chemistry view of sublimating and the Alchemical approach to sublimating, the essential difference between them. I have no problem clearly describing this if need be. Knowing this I find it personally heinous that people try to keep this secret but are charging money for services and Alchemy products as some who have posted a response here do. I agree totally with the late Jean Dubuis that charging money for Alchemy is to the do with the pursuit of 'lucre' and will cause problems and be not adequately spiritual for progress.

From the Cathechism of the Higher Chimia (http://greenmanscreations.com/2011/03/14/catechism-of-the-higher-chimia/) by Karl von Eckartshausen:


Q: What are the outward chemical sins?

R: 1. To advise someone into the chemical mistake. 2. To encourage others to sin. 3. To agree to someone else’s mistake. 4. To praise someone else’s mistake. 5. To remain silent in the presence of someone else’s mistake. 6. To close the eyes one someone else’s mistake. 7. To join in to someone else’s mistakes. 8. To defend these mistakes. This is how we participate to someone else’s mistakes, as if we have committed them our selves.

I love that Catechism... especially its *ethical* side.
I love this forum too... it's very generous and kind.

Alchemy has always been populated by charlatans, tricksters and merchants... But I always see them getting kicked out of here with no exceptions.

Those who made comments were doing exactly what Eckartshausen suggests... which is simply helping by offering tips and hints.

I was recently stuck with a problem... an alchemical problem... and I couldn't find a solution, so I finally asked someone... What did I get in return? Certainly not a "recipe" with the solution of the problem, but simply the title of a book.

The person who simply suggested me a book certainly knew how to "fix" the problem and describe it in more or less a simple way... but he didn't give me the "recipe", this person only suggested me a book.

There's different ways to understand that situation:
A) "What an idiot!!! I could have simply received the *recipe* and a simple explanation and I would have done it and I would be simply doing it!!!"

B) "How incredibly kind!!!! This person saved me a LOT of time by naming a specific book... and forcing me to read and THINK about the issue from other perspectives and arrive to my conclusions".

My own experience with Hermeticism has always been that the road of A leads to the palace of idiocy... whilst the road of B sometimes leads to the palace of wisdom (and sometimes it doesn't... but there is no other way to get there).

I don't see the merchants here, but some persons offering their own experience and showing you where they see a problem and trying to make you think. The old fashioned "ORA, LEGE, LEGE, LEGE, RELEGE, LABORA ET INVENIES" is the real path of alchemy.

(In my own case, I wasn't trying to correct your path... simply trying to help you to clean the retort... because it looked expensive and It didn't sound like a good idea to simply leave it with a sticky mess of oil and potassium that looks like a bubblegum... and I got good at cleaning my own vegetable disasters).

Axismundi000
03-29-2016, 08:17 PM
Should I perhaps find some flowery Alchemical text to respond in kind.... I think not. I shall instead stick to what I have been clearly asked.

The difference between Chemical and Alchemical sublimation:

A well known modern text Real Alchemy by Robert Bartlet pp116 line 3 "The resulting black mass is a crude form of cinnabar which is the sulfide ore of mercury. We can proceed with the black variety of cinnabar or we can improve this matter by sublimation to obtain the beautiful orange variety of cinnabar which is best."

Bartlett is a qualified chemist who has worked commercially as such. Therefore he clearly knows what the chemistry view of sublimation is and must therefore know that the black to red process will not be sublimation in chemical terms. He is clearly talking about Alchemical sublimation here just as I have previously described.

And yet time and again I see cryptic remarks about sublimation when clarity is best in pursuit of truth. I have a striven to be clear and completely uncryptic here. As for people not charging money for products or services being present on this forum. A simple click on links at the bottom of some members posts will show the truth of the matter.

zoas23
03-29-2016, 09:23 PM
Should I perhaps find some flowery Alchemical text to respond in kind.... I think not. I shall instead stick to what I have been clearly asked.

... Is it too hard to simply ask: "Interesting, what do you suggest me to read as to see this same issue from another perspective?"... ?
Or you can keep on perceiving those who are helping you 100% for free as filthy merchants who are willingly keeping you far from a knowledge that you desire.


As for people not charging money for products or services being present on this forum. A simple click on links at the bottom of some members posts will show the truth of the matter.

My own sig has a link to a web with artists who work with Hermeticism and charge money for their art (it even features some members of this same forum). I don't make a single cent from that web.
As for the other person who has a signature with links... Oh my... LOL, you are cursing against a person with a golden integrity and a special type of kindness that is hard to find in this world.

Your own prejudices are stopping yourself from receiving what some other people are giving to you as a gift...

Alchemy involves a LOT of learning how to deal with the infamous "frustration" (same thing is true for any other thing you want to learn, we all make mistakes whilst learning something -art, music, alchemy, tango dancing, etc). If you get mad at those who are trying to help you... you'll become blind to the gifts you are receiving from them (for free) here.

Alchemy works a lot like a mirror between the "subject" and the "matter"... if you fill yourself with poison, don't expect or assume that such thing won't "touch" what you are creating.

Axismundi000
03-29-2016, 10:15 PM
Expressing opinion supported by fact and reasoned argument is neither anger or poison. Clearly money is charged by forum members for services as you have agreed although initially denied. When I have been asked a question I have given a clear response, not flowery aphorisms and ad-homini.

I am neither surprised or angry that this has occurred, forums always degenerate in this way. I hope what I have shown with the Rosemary Magisterie and the difference between chemical and Alchemical sublimation is of use to those who are less inclined to contend with such disputes.

zoas23
03-30-2016, 12:23 AM
Expressing opinion supported by fact and reasoned argument is neither anger or poison. Clearly money is charged by forum members for services as you have agreed although initially denied. When I have been asked a question I have given a clear response, not flowery aphorisms and ad-homini.

I am neither surprised or angry that this has occurred, forums always degenerate in this way. I hope what I have shown with the Rosemary Magisterie and the difference between chemical and Alchemical sublimation is of use to those who are less inclined to contend with such.

Oh my... this degenerate forum! Oh, please!

I am aware of the fact that my signature has a link to a web of mine in which artists from all over the world show their art for free and sell it (Filthy criminals! Artists who sell their paintings! First time I hear about such aberration... Entartete Kunst for sure! ). The artists pay me $0 every year to keep their galleries there... and I have a reasonable commission of 0% for each painting that gets sold (you wouldn't believe the fortune I've made with this non-for-profit web!).

I am aware of the fact that Salazius creates like an artisan Black Mirrors and sells them (I like them, I am tempted to get one in the future... mostly waiting till the legislation of my country changes a bit when it comes to imported items).

And the über-evil Andro has a web in which he teaches some sort of Shamanic meditation therapy and charges for it (though his web doesn't even mention the word "alchemy" at all... not even once).

Then there's the Satanist Dev, who certainly has this free forum as a mere excuse to make us all listen to his podcasts, because he makes fortunes with his free podcasts and we all know that you have to pay a fortune to be featured in one of them.

Last, but not least, some of us have recently participated in a collective book that will be sold... true degenerate and malicious merchants!!!! Shame on us!!!

Your perception of a room full of merchants made you ignore all the hints you were given... for free... for kindness.
Oh, man... change your perception before your perception eats you alive!
And I don't mean your perception about money.

Kiorionis
03-30-2016, 04:42 AM
A kind reminder everyone, please try to stay on topic.

Thanks again.

:cool:

Axismundi000
03-30-2016, 08:14 AM
I think I have contributed all that I can of usefulness to this thread. So I shall take a 1 month hiatus.

Salazius
03-30-2016, 08:45 AM
I worked with Archangels of the highest nature. They charge the service.

Nothing is for free, even less when it is seemingly given for free.

zoas23
03-30-2016, 10:11 AM
I think I have contributed all that I can of usefulness to this thread. So I shall take a 1 month hiatus.

Are you sure about this decision?
What if you give up your *paranoid* perception of being surrounded by persons who want your money and you begin to listen.

You are clearly not an expert when it comes to external alchemy (though you are neither inept or completely unexperienced), but the good thing is that this isn't a test and you don't need to demonstrate anything. Unlike other forums, this isn't a place where I see people judging other forum members based on their "alchemical skills".

The big issue here is Salt Volatilization... and you have the rare privilege of having a few individuals who know a thing or two on the subject and are explaining you in different ways that what you have achieved is interesting, but that you should investigate other paths of doing something similar to arrive to better results.

You can take a 1 month hiatus... Or you can relax and stop being stubborn and accept the help you are receiving without feeling offended... and accept a simple: "that's good, but if you investigate a different way you can arrive to a better result"... and ask for some help on the subject. If I were you, I would choose the second option.

During my life I've made a LOT of disasters with the infamous vegetable Salt (some of my own failures include: heating a plant for a whole month without ever getting out of the "black ashes", over-heating a Salt till it became completely green and melted with the crucible, causing the explosion of another crucible with Salt because I've removed it from the oven without letting the crucible cool down a little bit, fainting after consuming a vegetable stone because I consumed much more Potassium Carbonate than it was reasonable and my blood pressure dropped and made me fall to the floor, etcetera and etcetera). Each time I faced one of these problems I commented it here and nobody looked down on me, but quite the opposite: I received the type of help that made me correct my own mistakes.

You have clearly demonstrated that you dominate the "Kalec Volatilization"... and you have even discovered a few of its hidden "tricks" by yourself (which is fantastic).
Maybe you expected an *applause* and you got a "that's not really the best way to do it"... which is excellent, because the sound of an applause if quite pleasing, but we learn nothing from them.

This isn't a competition about who is the best "salt volatilizator" of the forum... but simply a friendly conversation about a subject that you proposed.

JDP
03-30-2016, 11:00 AM
Should I perhaps find some flowery Alchemical text to respond in kind.... I think not. I shall instead stick to what I have been clearly asked.

The difference between Chemical and Alchemical sublimation:

A well known modern text Real Alchemy by Robert Bartlet pp116 line 3 "The resulting black mass is a crude form of cinnabar which is the sulfide ore of mercury. We can proceed with the black variety of cinnabar or we can improve this matter by sublimation to obtain the beautiful orange variety of cinnabar which is best."

Bartlett is a qualified chemist who has worked commercially as such. Therefore he clearly knows what the chemistry view of sublimation is and must therefore know that the black to red process will not be sublimation in chemical terms. He is clearly talking about Alchemical sublimation here just as I have previously described.

And yet time and again I see cryptic remarks about sublimation when clarity is best in pursuit of truth. I have a striven to be clear and completely uncryptic here. As for people not charging money for products or services being present on this forum. A simple click on links at the bottom of some members posts will show the truth of the matter.

The quoted passage from Bartlet's book, as it is (without any further context), sounds like only a general description of making artificial cinnabar. This is certainly not "alchemical sublimation" but a very common and well known procedure still practiced by ordinary chemistry today: simple grinding of mercury and sulfur in the appropriate proportions produces the black sulfide of mercury (the so-called Ethiops mineral of the old "chymists"), which when submitted to sublimation turns into the red sulfide of mercury (the so-called cinnabar.)

There is, by the way, a safer and simpler method of turning the black mercury sulfide into the red one: digestion in an alkaline hydroxide solution

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3994-Artifical-Cinnabar-Vermillion-Synthesis

Salazius
03-30-2016, 01:43 PM
Example of tartar salt volatilized during a plant work.
The salt look dirty because of the volatilized oil of the plant. Here Guarana.

http://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/11/17/05/29/p2021912.jpg

http://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/11/17/05/29/p2021911.jpg

http://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/11/17/05/29/p2021910.jpg

z0 K
03-30-2016, 06:00 PM
It's basically simple work to 'volatilize' potash by means of an oil, however some texts (such as 'Elixir Proprietatis') specify that this is not the 'way of the Adepts', who use different ways for salt 'volatilization' in order to achieve the often described as 'miraculous' effects of their elixirs.

Volatilizing potash with an essential oil of a plant is not the “way of the Adepts,” for sure. It is not Philosophically prepared. Even though it has been sublimed or distilled depending on how you look at it such is not animated with Spirit. The processes described in this thread are lacking in the preparation of the Spirit.

So far Spirit is being confused with a distillate or sublimate. The sublimate or distillate when subjected to chemical analysis is always found to be ordinary molecules. These materials are merely bodies animated by Spirit (Spiritus Mundi).

Everything contains Spiritus Mundi but only living things have Spirit that can be extracted somewhat safely. One cannot extract all of it without ripping Space/Time apart as the quantum physicists are trying to do.


Salts did come over on the final distillation but just thinking about the simple chemistry of this some of the oil could have had saponification and this would have facilitated the distillation of some of the salts on the final distillation. [...] Being a little blunt here I do not think there is a 'secret of the adepts' for this, it is basic chemistry and lab method.

Saponification is what is happening in that process. One needs Philosophical soap as Starkey promoted to get really alchemical. That is the secret.

Nice photos of sublimated matter in this thread. If you can do that then you can sublimate Philosophical matter. It is no more difficult. Chasing that Spirit around in your lab requires adept attention and observation. Flee Atalanta! I’ve caught her only to loose her. Which means one has to find her again once she is loose. Alas if she escapes into the air she is lost and you will have to start over.

Azismundi000 is right about a growing commercialization of our Art around simple chemistry processes configured into a pop apothecary industry. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Apothecary medicines made by enthusiastic craftsmen are far better nostrums than most of the poison remedies of big pharma

-----------------------------------

Andro
03-31-2016, 09:24 AM
Thanks z0 K for the insights. Your posts are rare but valuable.

I initially didn't feel it necessary to express it on this thread, but I see the 'Spiritus' (SM) as the agent (acting as a passenger/guest of carrier/host matters) which facilitates the philosophical sublimation and (in some cases) the acquired 'levity' as well as the significant change in properties of the 'volatilized' salts (solubility, sublimation temperatures, etc..).


Flee Atalanta! I’ve caught her only to loose her. Which means one has to find her again once she is loose. Alas if she escapes into the air she is lost and you will have to start over.This has often happened to me and to a few colleagues/friends. The prepared salts/earths attracting/rendering a Spirit/Humidity even in closed vessels, only to vanish upon opening the vessel. It can be disheartening, because the quantities of the attracted Spirit are noticeably larger with a 'magnet' than with no 'magnet'.

In my case, the 'magnet' salts/earths need to be (IMO) further worked upon to not only have the ability to render/attract/manifest the Spirit, but also to hold/contain it without determining/specifying it. It's a tough one to crack at this point (for me), but I'm getting there...
____________________

BTW, since it may have been obliquely suggested on this thread, I have never charged money for so-called 'alchemical secrets' (I part-time practice a different 'skill-trade'). Whatever I have to share alchemically, I share on this forum or in private exchanges with trusted friends, on a foundation of mutual respect and individual discernment, and with NO money involved. So there.

Axismundi000
05-01-2016, 08:37 AM
The quoted passage from Bartlet's book, as it is (without any further context), sounds like only a general description of making artificial cinnabar. This is certainly not "alchemical sublimation" but a very common and well known procedure still practiced by ordinary chemistry today: simple grinding of mercury and sulfur in the appropriate proportions produces the black sulfide of mercury (the so-called Ethiops mineral of the old "chymists"), which when submitted to sublimation turns into the red sulfide of mercury (the so-called cinnabar.)

There is, by the way, a safer and simpler method of turning the black mercury sulfide into the red one: digestion in an alkaline hydroxide solution

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3994-Artifical-Cinnabar-Vermillion-Synthesis

Here is the Wikipedia link giving sublimation which I checked this morning.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_(phase_transition)

The first sentence of the Wikipedia entry clearly shows what chemical sublimation is. The black to red phase of cinnabar is not chemical sublimation the material remains a solid but changes colour and molecular structure. Interestingly the Wikipedia entry then goes on to define Alchemical sublimation in more or less Chemistry terms which is problematic. The chemical process you provide JDP is interesting, however I am reluctant to try it because you lack a grasp of basic facts you describe the cinnabar heat transition from black to red as sublimation but in chemical terms it clearly is not as I mention it remains a solid.

Why then do modern Alchemical authors (including qualified chemists) describe procedures without solid to gas transition as sublimation? They must surely understand the chemical definition.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=sublimation


Because the Alchemical sublimation is to raise or elevate which does not always have the solid/gas phase transition. So in chemistry sublimation is solid directly to gas. In Alchemy, sublimation is raising or elevating the material for example changing molecular structure but not always solid to gas.

Referring to the Wikipedia entry it describes how heating and collecting the vapour of ammonium chloride is not sublimation because the material changes into two separate compounds before returning to ammonium chloride form but now with a different molecular structure which gives a yellow to orange colour rather then the original white colour. Yet in Alchemy this is described as sublimation even though in chemistry it is not sublimation because the vapours are chemically different to the starting or final ammonium chloride. It is the new crystalline molecular structure that constitutes in part at least the sublimatio, the 'elevation' clearly.

I wonder how many people have paid money and adopted unctuous and sycophantic behaviours for this information within the pyramid selling business model of modern Alchemy

elixirmixer
11-16-2016, 05:01 AM
Andro...? Did you consume or taste these volitalized salts. If so, did they differ much from there original form? If not, what did you decide to do with these salts.

Have you tried to cohobate with rosemary oil or spirit of wine again? What i mean is, can you unite these volatized salts with a sulfur and mercury?

Karma Rinchen
11-21-2016, 04:55 AM
Another couple questions for Andro: you mentioned that these salts are only soluble in SVR and diethyl ether. Excuse me if this is a dumb question, but what is SVR?

Also, do you know if there is a way of volatilizing the salts (rendering them as agents of Spiritus) that leaves them still water-soluble? I ask because I have wondered if the method for making the Ens Melissa is missing something - i.e. that the Salts need to be worked upon and rendered Philosophical prior to being made into a tartar water in which the herb is submerged.

Just a few days ago, I happened upon some instructions in The Compendium of Alchemical Processes for purifying tartar. Although I confess I am confused as to whether the author is here talking about pot carb or wine stones (potassium bitartrate). Regardless, I am fascinated with this process and to read here of a method that goes beyond what Kalec taught. Can you please give some hints as to what spirit it is that you treated it with?

Andro
11-21-2016, 07:23 AM
what is SVR?

Rectified Spirit of Wine.


Also, do you know if there is a way of volatilizing the salts (rendering them as agents of Spiritus) that leaves them still water-soluble?

Not to my knowledge. Also, it depends what 'water' you are referring to...


I ask because I have wondered if the method for making the Ens Melissa is missing something - i.e. that the Salts need to be worked upon and rendered Philosophical prior to being made into a tartar water in which the herb is submerged.

A FULL (or fuller) 'recipe' for the Ens is available in RAMS. That particular method involves both common potash AND a spiritualized/elevated/magnetized salt.

The quintessence/living Sulfur of any matter is best obtained with a genuine Alkahest (or Circulatum, etc...)


Regardless, I am fascinated with this process and to read here of a method that goes beyond what Kalec taught. Can you please give some hints as to what spirit it is that you treated it with?

Some clues here: How can salts be volatilized? (https://www.labyrinthdesigners.org/faqs/how-can-salts-be-volatilized/)

PS: I recommend reading the Golden Chain of Homer, especially the parts dealing with the Acid Principle and its connection to volatilization & fixation of salts. Also, since Dew partakes of the Acid Principle ('Nitre', or the Celestial expression of Spiritus), Roger Guasco's book Dew Burns The Salt (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roger-guasco-livres.net%2Flivres-html%2Frosee%2Fp_2.php) is also a good read, especially the 'Salt' chapter.

For the Terrestrial (Alkaline Principle) expression of Spiritus, Von Welling's 'Opus Mago-Cabalisticum et Theosophicum' is a very good read.


--------------------------------------------------------

Karma Rinchen
11-22-2016, 05:20 AM
Wow, thank you!! That gives me a very good place to start from. Could you please tell me, if you remember, what document from RAMS? Searching through titles in the digital library, I came across something entitled Sal Enixum & Abbíe Rousseauís Primum Ens Salis by Sir Kenelm Digby. Would this be it?

SVR = Rectified spirit of wine. Thanks. Is this a philosophical product or simply 95%+ alcohol?

I would like to share with you at some point a method of making the CM that a friend knows and has tried. I have not (yet), but he says while it works, there is a problem, since it requires fresh water added to it to make the separation happen.

As an aside, I've been rather disappointed in the past with the poor quality of editing and transcription with RAMS. A number of years ago, I noticed a few glaring errors in their edition of Golden Chain of Homer. I can't remember what they were, I'll have to see if I can find them again, but it was enough to make me wary about reading any of their stuff. Which is too bad. If possible, I'll see if I can find a scan of an original copy of anything i read from them.

Andro
11-22-2016, 06:57 AM
Is this a philosophical product or simply 95%+ alcohol?

Just the purest grapes/wine ethanol you can get.


Could you please tell me, if you remember, what document from RAMS?

I don't remember, but I have the entire process separately (see below).

Also, a First Being (Primum Ens) of a thing, when Alchemically rendered, floats on top of the Alkahest according to most texts :cool:.

The process below can also be of good assistance on how to approach the Circulatum Minus Alkahest version of Urbigerus.

Here is the text from RAMS:



THE FAMOUS ELIXIR OF LIFE



(Prepared from Balm)



In the proper season of the year, when the herb is at its full growth, and, consequently, its juices in their whole vigor, gather at the fittest time of the day (when Jupiter is rising and the Moon in Cancer is applying to a conjunction, sextile or trine aspect thereto), a sufficient quantity of Balm, wipe it clean and pick it; then put it in a stone mortar, and by laborious beating, reduce it into a thin pap.

Take this glutinous substance and put it into a bolt head, which is to be hermetically sealed, place it in a dunghill or gentle heat equivalent thereto, where it must digest for forty days.

When it is taken out, the matter will appear clearer than ever, and have a quicker scent.

Then, separate the grosser parts, which however are not to be thrown away.

Put this liquid in a gentle bath so that the remaining gross particles may perfectly subside.

In the meantime, dry and calcine the grosser parts (which remained after the above separation) and extract their fixed Salt, which is to be joined to the liquor when filtrated.

Next, take sea Salt, well purified, melt it and by setting it in a cold place, it will dissolve in the humidity of night air and become clear and limpid.

Take of both Liquors and mix them thoroughly, and having hermetically sealed them in a proper glass, let them be carefully exposed to the sun, in the warmest season of the year for about six weeks.

At the end of this space, the Primum ENS of the balm will appear swimming at the top like a bright green oil, which is to be carefully separated and then preserved.

Of this oil, a few drops taken in a glass of wine for several days together, will bring to pass those wonders that are reported of the Countess of Desmond and others; for it will entirely change the juices of the human body, reviving the decaying frame of life and restoring the spirits of long lost youth.

The author who records this curious discovery remarks: “If after the medicine is thus prepared, if any doubt be had of its efficacy, or of its manner of operation, let a few drops be given every day on raw meat to any old dog or cat, and in less than a fortnight, by the changing of their coats and other incontestable changes, the virtue of this preparation will sufficiently appear.
_________________________________

Notes:
extract their fixed Salt, which is to be joined to the liquor
Sometimes, 'joined' implies more than merely dissolving the salt in the liquor, but rather first make the salt 'spiritual' and only afterwards make the salt & the liquor into ONE inseparable entity.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with this specific process, as I haven't performed it, but obscuring/omitting this detail (among others) is often common in Alchemical 'recipes'.

Also worth noticing, is the absence of explicitly mentioned ethanol/SV. We're most likely dealing with another Spirit here :) ...

In any case, I think it can be a good idea to compare and cross-reference different texts dealing with the Alkahest (Universal or Vegetable), such as from Van Helmont, Urbigerus, Paracelsus, Royal Society, etc - to get a wider perspective, as one text reveals what another conceals, etc... Also Artephius and the ICH/Cyliani lineage mention an Oil (the Philosophical Sulfur) floating/swimming on top (in the Second Rotation), by means of the Ph. Mercury obtained in the First Rotation.

Karma Rinchen
11-22-2016, 06:58 PM
Ah yes, I do know this recipe! Thank you. I first saw this in Heliophilus's book - Alchemy Rising. It's from the Book Of Formulas. There are many questions around this work.

A friend of mine has had brief contact with Heliophilus, who says he deliquesces the "sea salt" (if it is in fact regular sea salt - it's possible; I have heard of making quintessences using sodium chloride) in burlap sacks hanging over a bowl that catches the drips. Couldn't get more information than that, however. But then if it is being deliquesced in the night air, then it's not the same magnetized salt you were discussing earlier in this thread, or is there something I'm missing?

Here is the text from his book:


Let us now consider the original recipe written by Paracelsus's own hand. The
mystery is hidden in the terms digestion and, more importantly, dissolved salts,
which he uses in the extraction of the First Entity of Herbs, Gems and Sulphur.
By unlocking this secret we unlock the rest of Paracelsus's First Entities and
more importantly, the true Primum Ens Melissae; take note, gentle philosopher.
THE FIRST ENTITY OF HERBS
Take celandine or balm; beat them into a pulse, shut them up in a glass vessel
hermetically sealed, and place in horse dung to be digested for a month.
Mterwards separate the pure from the impure, pour the pure into a glass
vessel with dissolved salt, and let this, when closed, be exposed to the sun
for a month. When this period has elapsed, you will find at the bottom a
thick liquid and the salt floating on the surface. When this is separated you
will have the virtues of the balm or of the celandine, as they are in their first
entity; and these are called, and really are, the first entities of the balm or
of the celandine.
If we do not look closely at the procedure it becomes barely workable, for as well
as the digestion process the term dissolved salt is ambiguous. We must examine
other recipes if we are to unravel this mystery.
The following receipt for the Primum Ens has been drawn from the Book of
Formulas, which uses alchemical symbolism to describe the work and does much
to clarify the process. We have translated those symbols, but otherwise leave the
recipe intact.

Heliophilus makes a case that the digestion is more than it appears.
"If we do not look closely at the procedure it becomes barely workable, for *as well as the digestion process* the term dissolved salt is ambiguous." He is here referring to the recipe penned in Paracelsus's hand before moving on to quote the recipe you pasted above.
Yet there seems to be no ambiguity about this in the text. Anaerobic decomposition, plain and simple. Or do you think he is referring to the "joining" of the salt and liquor?


Also worth noticing, is the absence of explicitly mentioned ethanol/SV. We're most likely dealing with another Spirit here ...

Yeah, I wasn't even sure if a solvent/Spirit was used at all here, but that makes no sense. That being said, I know anaerobic decomposition does generate a very small quantity of alcohol, which would carry the Mercury.

Axismundi000
11-22-2016, 07:15 PM
I remember discussing this with Heliopolis on Facebook. The use of potassium carbonate was the main issue and I agreed with Heliopolis that it is incorrect to use pot carb. Before that conversation I made the so called Primum Mellisa Ens but I didnt like the final oil even though it looked correct, my feeling was that potassium carbonate is the wrong stuff. Perhaps if I do this process again I will employ sea salt.

Andro
11-22-2016, 07:42 PM
if I do this process again I will employ sea salt.

The 'salt' in this case would need to be elevated/spiritualized/opened/magnetized in order to achieve a genuine Primum Ens/First Being. The process I've posted hints at that.

It is most likely that common sodium chloride will give almost nothing but 'phlegm' (i.e. 'plain water'), as will common potash.

Karma Rinchen
11-22-2016, 08:17 PM
Here is relevant thread
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4178-The-Central-Salt&highlight=salt

Axismundi000
11-22-2016, 10:32 PM
Interesting stuff thanks for the link.

Karma Rinchen
11-23-2016, 11:59 PM
So Andro, I am a little confused in regards to this "magnetized" salt and was wondering if you could please shed a little more light. On the one hand, there is the salt that you posted earlier that climbs up the glass walls, but is not soluble in water. On the other hand, there is this salt from the recipe from the Book of Formulas that deliquesces in the night air. Not the same salts? The thread here - Fixation of Sea Salt (http://www.forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?656-Fixation-of-Sea-Salt-towards-the-P-Stone) - discusses a salt that is most likely anhydrous and melts like candle wax at low temperatures. Can you please share whether you have made or seen this salt? Would this be the salt that opens the true Ens?