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Xerilon
04-11-2016, 09:08 PM
Sorry for the click bait if it works that way, but I have an important question :p

As a fresh member of this forum, I have got the impression that there is a ton of philosophy discussed, and experiments of various sorts.

But. Is magic even real as what the laymen would see it?

Can anyone actually bend any physical law with a higher law, as stated in the Kybalion?

I got into this forum mostly to transmute myself to heal, but also to look for the real Alchemy of old, like immortality, or reverse aging with magic, yet most people only discuss the symbolism of it. If we all have an immortal spirit or soul anyways there would be no need to even live, other than to enjoy the earthly life. The spirit life would be revealed in the end no matter what we do.

I think it is simply fear that drives us to prepare for death. Also the fear of weaknees that drives us to look for power. The way many try to envision the perfect way to walk life is to be like Jesus, namely: Walk slowly, help others, do miracles. Yet the only thing we can do is mention others through history that could do amazing things like teleportation, immortality, levitation. Walk slowly and help others is actually the easy part.

And that is that. Miracles none of us can replicate.

I have experienced many events of real magic, but that was in the environment. And I am not a sceptic, and I am aware of the James Randi Hoax and that real magic is "unstable".
But, can anyone DO real magic?

No? Okay.
Yes? Please tell :)

Awani
04-11-2016, 09:14 PM
Well in my experience everything is in the Mind. To quote something I am working on at the moment:


Magic is the art of influencing events and creating miracles with unseen forces. The mind cannot be seen. The mind is a force. The mind can influence events, and by so doing it can create miracles. There are not any tricks or techniques to perform magic, only mind. If the mind is fed with magic, then magic will excrete from the mind. If it is fed with rational materialism, then rational materialism is what will be experienced.

:cool:

Xerilon
04-11-2016, 09:22 PM
Very interesting :)
Does that mean that the mind is the main tool for creating miracles that others outside the mind can observe? And by miracles I mean of course laws over lower laws, or "supernatural" events.

If so, my mind is not yet filled to the brim with magic. I can not even spin the paper on the needle :P

Awani
04-11-2016, 09:23 PM
In my opinion and experience. But true magic is not parlor tricks... that is energy gone to waste.

:cool:

zoas23
04-11-2016, 09:50 PM
Can anyone actually bend any physical law with a higher law, as stated in the Kybalion?


I'm not even sure if I would describe magic as "bending physical laws"... it somehow sounds like bending spoons with the mind.
There is often too much fantasy about what magic is....
And the harsh truth is that its reality is by far more interesting than those fantasies.

Also, Alchemy and Magic are like twins, but at the same time they are different.

Awani
04-11-2016, 10:12 PM
...it somehow sounds like bending spoons with the mind...

I know what you think of the movie, but it cannot be NOT said: there are no spoons... ;)

:cool:

zoas23
04-11-2016, 10:28 PM
I know what you think of the movie, but it cannot be NOT said: there are no spoons... ;)

:cool:

I will travel to your lands, slap your face and come back home.

As for Xerilon... forget the physical laws and specially don't forget to never quote The Matrix.

A great book to understand what magic really is: "Eros and Magic in the Renaissance" by Ioan P. Couliano... no, it's not a grimoire, it's not a manual, but an essay. It is very good for understanding what magic is actually about and probably forget the most "Harry Potter" fantasies that everyone has.

Ghislain
04-12-2016, 12:05 AM
I believe magic was once here, that there may be people who can still perform it, but its explanation would need a whole leap of faith.

Ghislain

Kiorionis
04-12-2016, 01:05 AM
but its explanation would need a whole leap of faith.

Ghislain

I think it depends from which perspective you percieve it. From the bottom looking up, it's irrational magic. From the top looking down, it's logical and orderly creation.

'Magic' is just the term used by people who don't understand the science of it.

Kiorionis
04-12-2016, 04:02 AM
As a fresh member of this forum, I have got the impression that there is a ton of philosophy discussed, and experiments of various sorts

[. . .]

I got into this forum mostly to transmute myself to heal, but also to look for the real Alchemy of old, like immortality, or reverse aging with magic, yet most people only discuss the symbolism of it.

You'll find on our forum a preference for the underlying principles of Nature. If we told you how to use them, it would be religion or a cult. But you're free to use the symbolic expressions in more practicle ways, if you're so inclined :cool:

You'll probably hear it often, that if you dont understand the principles, you'll not get very far in alchemy.

Personally, I take these philosophical discussions and apply them to internal alchemy and the 'sublimation' of Self. You could say that this is where the real magic happens.

Kiorionis
04-12-2016, 04:06 AM
Also, Alchemy and Magic are like twins, but at the same time they are different.

I certainly wouldn't mind reading an elaboration of this concept ;)

Salazius
04-12-2016, 09:05 AM
As far as I know, bending spoon with the mind comes from several things :

- Hypno-Telepathy
- No will, no force, just seeing in advance what will happen and transmiting it to the spoon
- Magnetism

Energy is what makes the magick to happen, it is what vehiculates the information.

Xerilon
04-12-2016, 09:34 AM
I agree with all of you on this, and I have never quoted the Matrix :p

And as I agree that "parlor tricks" is just waste of energy, the use of energy to manipulate matter directly from the mind, or by other "magical" means is certainly not wasteful use. It can be used for so many good and helpful things it becomes too much to list up here :)

I know I may wrongly use the term "magic" but it's just to differentiate between ordinary things, otherwise just lifting your arm would be considered "mind over matter" and that way everybody is doing magic all the time.

Awani
04-12-2016, 02:29 PM
Nothing wrong with quoting The Matrix or Britney Spears or whatever. It is the message that is important, not the messenger.

Ops I did it again. ;)

As for magic it also depends how it is defined.

:cool:

Seth-Ra
04-12-2016, 04:02 PM
There are a lot of "fantasy" notions out there that are more or less artistic depictions of Principles in a fantastical showing/setting. (Books, movies, most magickally inclined media)

That doesn't mean that miracles and really powerful magick don't work or don't exist. Usually things operate far more subtly; for instance, one may not throw full on fireballs from their hands... But one could work some magick and see within a fairly short timeframe some sort of "burn" occur; you may cast one night, and they come in the next day with a really bad sun burn, or maybe their house catches fire due to "unknown causes" or some such. The possibilities are endless. It's about intent, Will, and the skill of the Artist. (No different than lab work, or anything else for that matter.)

With all that said, and to quote Winston from Ghostbusters, "I've seen shit that would turn you white!"

I've seen healing, and killing with magick, I've observed weather manipulation and interactions with spiritual entities.
Things aren't as flashy as the media, but the real deal can be just as fantastic and fascinating. (If not more so)
Tread lightly, this is "holy ground" - just like at all other areas of being, repercussions/reactions occur for actions.
Have fun. :)




~Seth-Ra

Xerilon
04-12-2016, 06:58 PM
Well, I have seen really weird things myself that would attest to the existence of "real magic", the problem is just how to aquire and apply the priciples of it.

I have read many books of various caliber within the esoteric, and that would be equivalent to shooting in all directions not hitting the target even once.

It all boils down to: "In order to do magic, you must quiet your mind and just do it! But do not try too hard, just let it happen." And that is where it all fails. Also I think one problem is that it is difficult to have a clear gaol and get feedback from yourself. It is not as lifting weights: You learn the principles, the movements, the program, and you have a goal, and you get feedback of progression at almost every workout when you do it right.

To compare, when I do spiritual work in meditation etc. I can easily visualize anything, but I can not really "feel" it, and I get no feedback telling me if I am doing it right or wrong. When I attempt Astral Projection, I have no problems relaxing the body and avoid movement, but I can lay there limp as a corpse, imagining all kinds of techniques for an hour until my body aches and I want to shift position. It's very demotivating.

Could these "principles" we have to start with (which I believe is very simple) actually be the stuff that is hidden in secret out-of-reach books, or in the highest levels of an Order or Cult?

Awani
04-12-2016, 09:09 PM
And that is where it all fails.

That is where the magic begins. :) So yes, in my experience it is as easy as that... but easy can be very difficult and I am not saying I can predict the future or read minds at will... but certainly more often than before when I tried to use various techniques.

Magic = just do it
Illusion = practice

What is magic?

To paraphrase Rupert Sheldrake... the paranormal is normal, the supernatural is natural...

:cool:

Xerilon
04-14-2016, 01:58 PM
Yeah, I'm with you on that, and Rupert is really a good guy :)

But it sounds often like trying to blow on the sail on the boat you are sitting in. It's not for nothing the great Alchemists called this and that "The Work", and that "Art" really means "To Learn" (if i'm not mistaken there). It all implies some form of action.

A good example would be how military remote viewers actually trained. They had real practical protocols to train the analytical brain to shut up and fade out so that the intuitive brain could get information. I would really want something similar, but at the same time preserve my "will" so that I can make my action and direction when the brain is ready. Also, as I mentioned before, the lack of feedback is also a bit frustrating. It could be that I simply do not recognize the feedback for what it is, and that is where learning and information on the subject comes into the picture.

Also so called "useless" magic is often cool because it is an Art, just as dancing and painting is "useless" it is appreciated to look at and healthy to learn :)

The reason I started this thread was to keep the eye on the target. I know that many are satisfied with philosophy and herbal medicine and entheogens, but many also want to learn how to get in touch with that "magic" that is objective and tangible. I certainly know it exists as I have seen it so no one can tell me it only exists "within", that is simply not true ;)

Awani
04-14-2016, 02:33 PM
I understand your frustration but to know/use magic can be compared with to know/see God (if one pretend one believes in God). In other words it can't be taught, it can only be embraced. Of course there are tech to learn, like awareness which is very difficult to fully obtain. But the path is individual that is why I can't teach you or you me. We can only push/encourage each other forward.

Psychedelics, herbal medicine and philosophy are tools not tech.

My offering is shamanism, that is the only path IMO that really can teach one magic (regardless if it is psychedelic shamnism or non-psychedelic shamanism).


I certainly know it exists as I have seen it so no one can tell me it only exists "within", that is simply not true

Ask yourself: is not everything within? All is mind. What is true? Nothing. Only your mind. So it is within. And what is within is without. As above, so below.

In my humble opinion.

I offer only wisdom based on my own direct experiences. I teach only what I study. I claim no authority other than what I myself author. ;) So I cannot be wrong. But I am only right if you discover the same in your journey.

This thread is valid even if many posts seem fluffy. :) I think there is a lot to understand from what seems to be empty feedback. No one in these forums know more or less than you. We only share our individual paths and sometimes they cross paths... And many times they do this a lot. I think Alchemy Forums collective wisdom is very high compared to the rest of the Internet, the vibration is high here. Not saying we are better than everyone else. I just think we are "on to something". ;)

Everything vibrates. Sacred music is tech to connect with the divine vibration (even an atheist cannot deny that the cosmos is amazing i.e. divine).

The target is being conscious about this and walking the path, the rest comes naturally.

:cool:

Xerilon
04-14-2016, 03:43 PM
Thank you, that last line there definitely has a high value :) I would take that advice!

And I agree: This foum has the highest collective vibration I have seen in years!

zoas23
04-14-2016, 08:50 PM
I certainly wouldn't mind reading an elaboration of this concept ;)

Both alchemy and magic can be easily defined as a Gnostic activity that seeks to aprehend the knowledge of the Divine.

Porphyry explained the concept incredibly well: " Of that nature which is beyond intellect, many things are asserted through intellection, but it is surveyed by a cessation of intellectual energy better than with it; just as with respect to one who is asleep, many things are asserted of him while he is in that state by those who are awake; but the proper knowledge and apprehension of his dormant condition, is only to be obtained through sleep. For the similar is known by the similar; because all knowledge is an assimilation to the object of knowledge."

Probably "assimilation" in the key word.

The phrase by Porphyry was used to define his Philosophy... but is is also, in my opinion, an accurate definition of alchemy and an accurate definition of alchemy.

Alchemy and Magic are simply two paths to the same thing...

And both arts make some people lose their aim by misunderstanding what they are (i.e, those who confuse P.N.L. with magic... those who confuse alchemy with making tons of money).

Thus I think they are like twins, but they are different.

I.e, I admire a lot the works of Martinez de Pasqually when it comes to "magic", but I do not think his alchemical views have much worth. Then Louis-Claude de Saint-Martin following Pasqually used a lot of alchemical symbolism... that works fine in a magical context, but if you read his ideas from an exclusive alchemical point of view... I never found any worth in his ideas (and I am talking about an author that I respect a lot). Same thing happens to me with Samuel Mathers, I love his texts on magic (I specially mean some texts that never got published)... and yet when he writes about alchemy, he often gets into a big mess of invocations, gestures with an alchemical symbolism, planetary hours... and a lot of things which are very nice, but not truly incredibly relevant for an alchemical practice (when it comes to alchemy in his tradition, I certainly prefer A.E. Waite -whilst the texts of Waite on Magic are not really among my favorites).

They are, in my opinion, two different paths which are very similar... and yet when they are wrongly mixed up, they somehow stop making sense.

These two paths follow the old idea of "Know thyself"... but their methods are not the same.

Going back to the topic as it was flowing:

There are always a lot of "fantasies" when someone gets interested in magic... and I am not against those fantasies at all. It is a process of learning and a process that changes the person who is learning (his views, his perceptions, his philosophy, etc). The "fantasies" are simply the desire to learn, which is a good sign... and what you finally get is certainly more interesting than those fantasies.

(i.e, there was a post about "levitation" and if it is possible to levitate in a physical way... in my opinion, the answer is no***... and yet it is possible to do things which are more interesting than a physical levitation).


*** Maybe someone shows up and claims that he can levitate... fine, I would simply say: "Congratulations, Superman!".

Kiorionis
04-14-2016, 09:56 PM
Thanks, zoas23.

--------


I would really want something similar, but at the same time preserve my "will" so that I can make my action and direction when the brain is ready.

A popular 'guidebook' for this sort of thing is Franz Bardon's Initiation into Hermetics.

Ghislain
04-15-2016, 01:18 AM
http://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12963749_604104309748410_6621900086306882735_n.jpg ?oh=a35d0c76c065c91fc2b31449b04763e2&oe=57B96C5C

Ghislain

Kiorionis
04-15-2016, 05:11 AM
just as with respect to one who is asleep, many things are asserted of him while he is in that state by those who are awake; but the proper knowledge and apprehension of his dormant condition, is only to be obtained through sleep. For the similar is known by the similar; because all knowledge is an assimilation to the object of knowledge.

I very much like this part. This is why alchemists in particular need a common Hermetic Vision, so that we can try to achieve the same perspective.

If real magic is merely 'to spell', then we must necessarily be working with the same definitions

Xerilon
04-15-2016, 09:39 PM
Thanks, zoas23.

--------



A popular 'guidebook' for this sort of thing is Franz Bardon's Initiation into Hermetics.

Thanks, I'll look into that :)

Awani
04-15-2016, 10:36 PM
so that we can try to achieve the same perspective.

i.e./or vibration

:cool:

Kiorionis
04-16-2016, 02:24 AM
Hmm, I'd rather see alchemists vibrating at different frequencies, while maintaining the same perspective, than alchemists with the same vibration and the same frequency and the same perspective. It would make for better conversations and more profitable growth, imo :)

Unless there was some sort of ceremony going on, then unity is a must!

Awani
04-16-2016, 09:26 AM
I was just saying that perspective and vibration can mean the same thing, but that is another subject I guess.

:cool:

Andro
04-16-2016, 10:13 AM
but is is also, in my opinion, an accurate definition of alchemy and an accurate definition of alchemy.

Two birds (who are one bird) - with One Stone :)


there was a post about "levitation" and if it is possible to levitate in a physical way... in my opinion, the answer is no***... and yet it is possible to do things which are more interesting than a physical levitation).

*** Maybe someone shows up and claims that he can levitate... fine, I would simply say: "Congratulations, Superman!".

I have experienced levitation only once in my life. I was in a sort of 'deep state', lying on the floor, and at some point I noticed I was 'floating' 20-30cm above the floor... I didn't do anything to consciously produce this effect, and I also couldn't 'go back down' by my own will. I also couldn't move while I was 'floating'. Eventually I came back down 'automatically', and the experience never repeated itself ever since. It almost seems that it happened only to 'show' me that it's possible. Superman? Far, far from it :)

zoas23
04-17-2016, 04:02 AM
Two birds (who are one bird) - with One Stone :)



I have experienced levitation only once in my life. I was in a sort of 'deep state', lying on the floor, and at some point I noticed I was 'floating' 20-30cm above the floor... I didn't do anything to consciously produce this effect, and I also couldn't 'go back down' by my own will. I also couldn't move while I was 'floating'. Eventually I came back down 'automatically', and the experience never repeated itself ever since. It almost seems that it happened only to 'show' me that it's possible. Superman? Far, far from it :)

Hahaha... I've noticed that I wrote "but is is also, in my opinion, an accurate definition of alchemy and an accurate definition of alchemy"... I obviously meant an accurate definition of alchemy and an accurate definition of magic, but I think everyone got what I wanted to write.

As for the levitation thing... Well, I am not a person who has hallucinations (using a very broad psychological classification, I'm definitely a neurotic and not a psychotic), but I've seen at the living room of my house two 5 meter high dragons, one of them blue, the other one red, fighting against each other (no drugs involved!)... and it didn't happen during a ceremony or after a ceremony or anything like that. I simply got home and they were there, so I shouted the name of my cat (for some reason my instant reaction was to call him to protect me, so I shouted "Sigil", such was his name... and he saw what I saw and he adopted the "angry cat" gesture for the only time in his life:

http://felineforever.com/images/angry-cat2

... and meowed very aggressively at the dragons, which banished with his meow... and then the cat jumped into my arms... and somehow we both looked at each other with a "What the fuck was that?" expression.

And yet, I don't think of this event as something specially relevant in what I call "magic". It could have never happened and my perception of what is magic would be exactly the same one. What was that? I have no idea... but it was not something incredibly relevant for me when it comes to defining what magic is about.

Having seen two dragons fighting in my living room, I have no authority to question your levitation experience... but was such thing something that completely redefined your understanding of magic? Or was is something that simply happened and it was incredibly odd, but didn't become the focus of your life and your perceptions about the world?

Brennus
05-19-2016, 01:34 PM
Sorry for the click bait if it works that way, but I have an important question :p


Can anyone actually bend any physical law with a higher law, as stated in the Kybalion?

And that is that. Miracles none of us can replicate.

No? Okay.Yes? Please tell :)

Replication in mainstream science is rare:
when you say physical law, what do you mean by; 1) Physical and 2) Law?