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JinRaTensei
05-26-2016, 03:09 PM
in the last weeks I have been reading and "inheriting" the teachings/philosophies of
Castaneda or rather Don Juan Matus(if he was a real person and not just a vehicle for the concepts of Castaneda)

personally I have by now read hundreds of alchemical/esoteric books,manuscripts etc but Castaneda is special to me in some way.his metaphorical way of relaying his concepts somehow resonates much stronger with me than most other more cerebral approaches of other "men of knowledge".this surprises me since I tend to be a rather cerebral and emotionally closed of person.

what are your thoughts and opinions on Castaneda ?
is his shamanistic way a path you yourself would prefer/walk right now or are you more comfortable with other approaches (lab work, asian cultivation methods like taoism,esoteric approaches like wicca/gnostic)
if one feels most in tune with a shamanistic / strong nature path what other authors/sources would you recommend looking into?
do you think Don Juan Matus was a real person and no matter if yes or no do you belief in indian magic and "astral" travel ?

generally everything you have to say or ask about Castaneda/Don Juan Matus fits here

Awani
05-26-2016, 03:12 PM
I have read a lot of his work through second hand sources, but never his own books. But I have some of them and plan to read them as soon as I am finished with some other books.

Right now I have only one thing to say: it does not matter if what he wrote was real or not, the message is more important than the messenger.

If you feel in tune with Shamanism there are no good books. Only direct experience. ;)

:cool:

JinRaTensei
05-26-2016, 03:46 PM
true good advice ! but since direct experience can not be forced the inpatient youth which dwells in me wants more and that now XD

btw if you wish I would recommend looking on youtube for audiobooks of his first 3 books,that was how I got started.they are dubbed really really well,imo

and personally I understand knowledge better heard than read...also a reason why I like your podcast ^^

Awani
05-26-2016, 03:54 PM
Thanks.

But shamanism is an oral tradition. I have read many books but it is "doing" it and "seeing" that is the key. So if you really want to go into it save money and travel to Africa or Latin/Central America (Asia also but I have no personal experience) where you can find real shamanism.

Or come to Amsterdam in august. ;)

:cool:

Andro
05-26-2016, 04:25 PM
So if you really want to go into it save money and travel to Africa or Latin/Central America (Asia also but I have no personal experience) where you can find real shamanism.

Or come to Amsterdam in august.

Shamanism is everywhere. No need to travel to some remote location to find 'real' shamanism.

It's already present where you are. Allow yourself to be initiated.

Also, auxiliary substances (to help achieving altered states), while needed by some, are not an absolute requirement.

Awani
05-26-2016, 04:32 PM
I never said you need to take any substance. And it is true it is everywhere. I practice it on a regular basis myself. I just mean that if you want to study under a shaman I think going to the source is generally better than second hand sources.

Although I personally believe that shamanism without plants are only half the story. And not all plants are directly "psychedelic". I have worked with some of those myself although in this forum I have mostly shared about the psychedelic ones.

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
05-26-2016, 04:37 PM
I read all of his books as soon as they came out, starting in the 1960's. At the time, I was very impressed. I have since learned that all of his books were entirely fictional. He made a lot of money on his books, which were based on a Yaqui Medicine Man who never existed. He also earned a Doctorate for his work, from the Department of Anthropolgy, UCLA, which he presented as factual. Later, when the faculty discovered that his work was a fraud, they took his Doctorate back.

See:
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/03/24/fake-carlos-castaneda-24168

I know, I know. Now everyone will tell me that it's not whether or not it was true, but rather the "message" that's important. I disagree. True meaningful messages can only come from those who are honorable and have integrity. This man was an outright liar (not just about his book, but also about his background) who did so to amass riches, so that he could live in his Los Angeles mansion which he shared with three of his girlfriend/followers. His estate was worth close to $20 million when he died.

I have absolutely no respect for this liar. He was a good writer - that is all.

Awani
05-26-2016, 04:58 PM
Carlos played the game really well. Who got hurt? No one IMO.

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
05-26-2016, 05:21 PM
Carlos played the game really well. Who got hurt? No one IMO.

:cool:

I certainly did. I was a naive, trusting student at the time, and believed his nonsense (as did numerous Anthropology students). It hurt deeply as it was a signifiicant contribution to my current, almost total distrust for most men of authority or otherwise. Lying has become almost universally accepted as a way of life. I have learned that many other authors also lied in order to amass fame and money. Lyall Watson is just another example of a well-known author with no principals, who also got "found out". There are also many Historians who lie outright about historical events. I even checked the references of one popular author, and found that he also totally lied about the source of one of his main "facts".

JinRaTensei
05-26-2016, 05:42 PM
So if you really want to go into it save money and travel to Africa or Latin/Central America (Asia also but I have no personal experience) where you can find real shamanism


Shamanism is everywhere. No need to travel to some remote location to find 'real' shamanism.

It's already present where you are. Allow yourself to be initiated.

I think the bias I have is trusting so called shamans in my nearer surroundings to be authentic and not just people who belief they are.I have great respect for anybody who dwelves on these matters but "make belief" is just not for me.there is no reason why a shaman in africa/asia/south america would be automatically authentic but I think in those rural cultures shamanism has practical usage in every day life and therefor at least works for them but here in europe aside from some gypsie folk(donīt know any other term which would be more respectful) there is no active tradition at least not public so even if I was to find a shaman I donīt think he would be what I am looking for,which is why I self study the most I can.


Also, auxiliary substances (to help achieving altered states), while needed by some, are not an absolute requirement.

if you know some good literature in this regard would be awesome because like dev mentioned that way I could make own experiences.not that I have anything against substances(not even slightly ^^) but the ones I would need I canīt find or buy o0.


Although I personally believe that shamanism without plants are only half the story

I think so also but maybe without plants is still enough for building a foundation if ones has enough determination?!

Illen

thank you for that information! but it really disappoints me since the image of the wise old yaqui indian has become to be something I hold dear.
and although I agree that a message has value no matter if the speaker is honest it still changes things greatly for me.I think almost more important than the message itself is the degree of trust/credibility one puts into it.
a "just free your mind" becomes a monumental treasure from a trusted teacher which in time will show true results because I am willing to put my energy and myself into it but a 30 page extremely detailed narrative of how to free your mind by a known liar will not bring the same results even if the message is true because there is always some kind of gap...maybe the only important thing is if you can make any message into a truth in your own life but it is much much harder without the trust part.
I feel like I want you to be wrong no matter if the message remains the same no matter what because even just hearing this has changed my "feeling" I had the last weeks...maybe also the reason why I never cared to check deeply if Don Juan Matus is real until now o0

Awani
05-26-2016, 05:42 PM
And that is why the only truth is direct experience. And also my point about only paying attention to the message. I do not care who said it, or why it was said or even if it is true. If the messae speaks to me that is all that matters.

And who knows. You can lie about lying as well. ;)

:cool:

zoas23
05-26-2016, 07:33 PM
I have read a lot of his work through second hand sources, but never his own books. But I have some of them and plan to read them as soon as I am finished with some other books.

Right now I have only one thing to say: it does not matter if what he wrote was real or not, the message is more important than the messenger.

As others said in this thread, the problem with his books is that they are only a collection of lies. To say it in a simple way, he completely invented a Latin American shamanic tradition that was "user-friendly" for North Americans... but was completely false.

As you know, and I think you know it from direct experience, there are several Latin American shamanic traditions.

Castaneda simply wanted to be the "Grand Master" of one of them... so he end up inventing a "tradition" that is not even based on anything that actually exists... So, the "message" was simply something that hardly makes any kind of sense.

I prefer honesty and honest writers who give a honest message (this is something I love about Austin Spare... he talks about a lady who made him get interested in sorcery when he was very young.... but then, when he writes, he simply takes the honest path of saying something as: "this stuff doesn't come from any secret tradition... I have invented it by myself and it worked for me and I don't give a shit if it works for you or if it doesn't... this is my experience and your experience should be different and will be different... and that's perfect. So don't follow my steps, because your own steps are what you should follow and I am not you... and you are not me".... fantastic).

As for Castaneda, I can only say something quoting this other author who never wanted to be quoted: "The threshold of the 'psychic' is the playground of the charlatan." (AOS).

Awani
05-26-2016, 08:06 PM
“We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”
― Carlos Castaneda

“We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”
― Adolf Hitler

“We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”
― dev

See my point?

:cool:

zoas23
05-26-2016, 08:55 PM
“We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”
― Carlos Castaneda

“We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”
― Adolf Hitler

“We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”
― dev

See my point?

I get your point... but the problem of the books by Castaneda is not WHO signed them or WHY... but that they portrait a "secret shamanic tradition" of Latin America... and the "secret shamanic tradition" that is described never existed...

... And it's incredibly easy to find at least 15 shamanic traditions in Latin America which are "real".

So I don't get the point of reading the details about something that has absolutely no relation with the real shamanic traditions of Latin America.

My problem with him is the message, not the messenger.

“The Earth is flat.”
― Carlos Castaneda

“The Earth is flat”
― Adolf Hitler

“The Earth is flat”
― dev

... That's my point! ;)

Awani
05-26-2016, 09:03 PM
Well like I said earlier I have not read any of his books so I can't really say for sure. But I am more interested in the "spiritual insights" such as the quote of him I posted earlier. Although the little I have read second hand doesn't seem that inaccurate.

:cool:

JinRaTensei
05-26-2016, 09:44 PM
zoas23

I canīt let you of the hook so easy after mentioning so many different shamanic traditions and one particular practitioner ^^
if you donīt mind please give me one or two more names and a short sentence why you think them to be authentic,it would be greatly appreciated

dev

maybe the messenger is equally or more important when your relation to this messenger is a message/information in itself


JinRaTensei: I love you
zoas23: I love you
your spouse: I love you

3 times the same message but one of them is worlds apart from the other two although the message in itself is rather simple

maybe the message and the messenger are unchangeable intertwined.

Illen A. Cluf
05-26-2016, 09:44 PM
Well like I said earlier I have not read any of his books so I can't really say for sure. But I am more interested in the "spiritual insights" such as the quote of him I posted earlier. Although the little I have read second hand doesn't seem that inaccurate.

:cool:
That's the real danger. Any con artists knows how to mix truth with lies - lies just don't work well without a considerable amount of truth. However, the truth in the statements adds false credence to the lies in his statements, until people begin to believe everything he says. So, from all the statements from anyone - Hitler, Nietsche, Castanedo, Bin Laden, famous corrupt Politicians - you can always pull out any of the true statements and say - well it's the message that matters. But does that make the messenger Truthful? Or the entire "message"? Does that make the lies any better? The messenger does indeed matter. The message is not the individual messages within it that ring true - it's the ENTIRE message, which could be riddled with falsities, but done with so much subtlety, that it could play psychological havoc with your belief systems.

That's exactly how brainwashing works.

zoas23
05-27-2016, 09:11 AM
zoas23
I canīt let you of the hook so easy after mentioning so many different shamanic traditions and one particular practitioner ^^
if you donīt mind please give me one or two more names and a short sentence why you think them to be authentic,it would be greatly appreciated

It is not a *belief* I have.

With authentic and real I simply mean that there are several shamanic traditions in Latin America which survived the Inquisition of the conquest and are still alive and they are very easy to find.
There's no need to "justify" them... it's very much like asking if there are still Hinduists in the world: yeah, go to India and you'll find plenty of Hinduists... not exactly a secret that is kept hidden.

i.e, with REAL I mean that this is something that exists:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Quechuan-shaman.jpg
The Quechua culture in Bolivia and Perú.

http://www.melohadichounpajarito.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/chaman.jpg
http://blogs.lainformacion.com/laregladewilliam/files/2009/07/davikopenawa600.jpg
The diversity of cultures of the Amazonian jungle are real.

http://www.provinciasannicolas.org/imgs/noticias/9171/5910.jpg
The Tarahumara culture of Mexico is real.

http://darkroom.baltimoresun.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/AFP_Getty-520765058.jpg
The Aymara culture of Bolivia and Argentina is real.

http://img.soy-chile.cl/Fotos/2014/03/22/file_20140322182228.JPG
The Mapuche culture of Chile and Argentina is real.

These are just a few examples...
All of these are complex cultures and can't be reduced to the experience of consuming a *narcotic* (or entheogen or whatever you want to call it)... with complex ideologies and a shamanic way of life.

I do remember a FANTASTIC experience I've had in the north-west of Argentina several years ago:
I went to the middle of nowhere and after hours of walking I arrived to a tiny village, I can't even call it a "town" and there was a very poor woman sitting at a chair, very old. It's probably that she was illiterate.
Anyway, she called me and asked me if I wanted a necklace and I said that I did. She was making them with wool... and making knots in the wool.
So she asked me what I wanted... if it was love, happiness, knowledge, etc. I can't remember what I replied.
So she took some threads of wool and started to make knots in it and adding other threads... and started to explain me what she was doing. I had assumed that she was simply going to make a nice decorative necklace.... but she was probably bored and started to explain me everything, the whole of the logic that she was following. Each thread had a mathematical and mythical sense, each knot was following a very rich mathematical metaphor...
She was saying things like: "The space has six directions, the four sides and above and below, so I'm going to make these 6 knots in this blue thread, blue as the space... and then this other red thread is you, in the middle of the six directions, so I'm going to make twenty knots in it, because ten is the number of your body and ten is the number of your mind, so your mind and your body are here together in the number 20.... and then a white thread on top of the red one, because that's the color of the light and with 2 dots only, because you see the light with your two eyes... " (I am not quoting her, I can't remember all the details, it's just an example of how she was talking).
So I finally didn't receive simply a necklace, but a whole cosmology filled with numbers, ideas, very abstract concepts... a complete philosophy expressed in a simple necklace made of wool... and it was obvious for me that she was simply keeping an oral tradition.
And once the necklace was finished I picked my wallet and asked her how much it costed and she laughed and asked me if I have something to eat. I had a package of potato chips and I showed it to her and she asked me if they were sweet or sour, so I said that they were fried potatoes with a lot of salt, so she opened the package and she ate some and said: "they are fine".

I was absolutely fascinated... I was more or less 25 years old by then... and the whole experience was absolutely psychedelic for me (yeah, no entheogens involved).
I simply wanted a cool souvenir... and in return I got a complex theory about the universe as a whole... a theory that survived the conquests and genocides...

... And that's shamanism too: a living culture, a way of life, a philosophy, a necklace.... and not just a *narcotic*.


My problem with Castaneda is that he wanted to be the "Guru" of something... So he invented fairy tales and a "super secret aboriginal culture" which has been again and again demonstrated to have absolutely no connection with anything that actually exists, but he became the "great authority" of that "super secret aborigine culture" (and the ONLY one actually, because nobody else had ever heard about anything similar to his ideas in the context of the aborigine cultures of Latin America).

And the "Shamanic Culture" he invented is not even interesting when you compare it with the ones that actually exist and are not exactly hard to find...

And with the little I know about Dev and the kind of culture he has... I bet that after reading 30 or 40 pages of Castaneda he'll probably say: "Oh my... what a load of bullshit!"
(If I am wrong, I will post a picture of myself with a hat decorated with donkey ears and a sign that says: "I have stupid prejudices and I am narrow-minded"... but I don't think I have many chances of losing this bet).

Awani
05-27-2016, 10:58 AM
That's the real danger. Any con artists knows how to mix truth with lies - lies just don't work well without a considerable amount of truth. However, the truth in the statements adds false credence to the lies in his statements, until people begin to believe everything he says. So, from all the statements from anyone - Hitler, Nietsche, Castanedo, Bin Laden, famous corrupt Politicians - you can always pull out any of the true statements and say - well it's the message that matters. But does that make the messenger Truthful? Or the entire "message"? Does that make the lies any better? The messenger does indeed matter. The message is not the individual messages within it that ring true - it's the ENTIRE message, which could be riddled with falsities, but done with so much subtlety, that it could play psychological havoc with your belief systems.

That's exactly how brainwashing works.

I do not see it as brainwashing. You do not have direct experience of Carlos life. You do not know what transpired. Neither do I. I guess we have to agree to disagree but I no longer share your opinion.

Everything in the world is mine for the taking. I do not care whom I take it from. If it can help my life it is mine.

You can find shit on anybody and if you go down that road the world will be empty.

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
05-27-2016, 02:07 PM
I do not see it as brainwashing. You do not have direct experience of Carlos life. You do not know what transpired. Neither do I. I guess we have to agree to disagree but I no longer share your opinion.

Everything in the world is mine for the taking. I do not care whom I take it from. If it can help my life it is mine.

You can find shit on anybody and if you go down that road the world will be empty.

:cool:
I'm not asking you to change your mind - I'm just expressing my opinion. If you'd prefer to listen to and read those who like to lie, and still get benefit from them, then benefit is the key. I would rather read and listen to those few who still believe in honor and integrity, like Krishnamurti. Their entire message resonates with me and has benefit. I'm not looking to find shit in anybody, I'm looking for those few who still have good in them. I can't help it that I trusted Castanenda and only found out decades later that he made it all up. If anything, he has taught me a great lesson - not to trust anybody blindly just because of the superficial eloquence of their words. That lesson is repeated daily when I listen to the words of some of the notable/popular Politicians like Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump (and most high level politicians) and compare them to past actions.

Awani
05-27-2016, 02:12 PM
I can't help it that I trusted Castanenda and only found out decades later that he made it all up. If anything, he has taught me a great lesson - not to trust anybody blindly just because of the superficial eloquence of their words. That lesson is repeated daily when I listen to the words of some of the notable/popular Politicians like Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump (and most high level politicians) and compare them to past actions.

Well yes, maybe I have the advantage of knowing about all this before reading his books. I go into knowing it is "fiction", which makes it not bother me. In my view - in the area of research I am most interested in - it is bad form not to have read at least one of his books. So I feel it is my duty.

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
05-27-2016, 03:51 PM
Well yes, maybe I have the advantage of knowing about all this before reading his books. I go into knowing it is "fiction", which makes it not bother me. In my view - in the area of research I am most interested in - it is bad form not to have read at least one of his books. So I feel it is my duty.

:cool:
Yes, I wish I had that advantage when I read his books. I think the books will be fascinating from that perspective, and you will marvel at the brilliance of his writing ability. He is incredibly persuasive, and appears to be very humble. I think he would have done much better if he had claimed his work to be fictional from the outset. He could have become one of the great fiction writers.

Andro
05-27-2016, 04:10 PM
Yes, I wish I had that advantage when I read his books. I think the books will be fascinating from that perspective, and you will marvel at the brilliance of his writing ability. He is incredibly persuasive, and appears to be very humble. I think he would have done much better if he had claimed his work to be fictional from the outset. He could have become one of the great fiction writers.

I found some value in what I read from Castaneda, but mostly of a psychological nature.

It is already widely known/exposed that Don Juan & Co. were his fabrications, so it would have been indeed a better idea to publish it as fiction, leaving the reader to speculate whether it actually happened or not.

When reading fiction, the author's personal life has nothing (or very little) to do with critiquing his work.

However, when the author presents his work as non-fiction and himself as 'initiated', then his personal life is no longer immune from scrutiny, seeing if he indeed 'walked the walk' as well as talking the talk. This level of personal scrutiny can help assessing the value/validity of the materials, when they are presented as actual occurrences - as opposed to fiction, philosophy, etc...

JinRaTensei
05-27-2016, 05:56 PM
zoas23

thank you very much for taking the time to elaborate so detailed and with personal pictures!

I wanted to respond to some of the things you mention but at this point


I do remember a FANTASTIC experience I've had in the north-west of Argentina several years ago: and following

I understand very clearly not just mentally but rather spiritually that like others have also mentioned I have to experience it there is really nothing words can do for me in this regard! I think I also understand the role of trance and transcendental stages of the mind as a whole to the shamanic tradition now much better.

I wanted to walk the path of a shaman but there is nobody to initiate me where I am now
so I wanted to find a way to initiate myself but I came to understand that this initiation is not something mere information as written in books can compensate for
so I wanted to find a way to induce the trance myself but I lack the money and mode of delivery to receive these botanical vehicles.

so what is left for me to do...drink tea,advance my own mental landscape and wait till life itself gives me what I desire.
when the student is ready the teacher will appear or so it is said...but its all so retroactive and passive ^^.why is it said btw that you can not become a shaman but only be initiated sounds like monopolizing the good stuff to me ^^

Awani
05-27-2016, 06:04 PM
Well like Andro said earlier you can start the shamanic path anywhere in the world... but I would suggest doing any "activity" in nature as shamanism and nature are strongly linked.


...why is it said btw that you can not become a shaman but only be initiated sounds like monopolizing the good stuff to me...

Everyone who is initiated into the Bwiti in Gabon become a shaman (or an Nganga). My name is Awani Na Koudou. Although this [Nganga] is more of a title than a "right" to start doing shamanic work on people. Often a shaman don't get to choose it. Although I think to become a shaman you first have to go through illness and then be healed, and also I think the title "shaman" is given to you by those around you. There is a fine line between being a shaman and a charlatan. ;)

You don't become a plumber by just wanting to be one. You probably have to study a few years first and even then you are not a plumber. A real plumber has done plumbing for at least 10 years. That is the kind of plumber you want to hire.

Also I don't think you need to be a shaman to be on the shamanic path.

Without shamanism no alchemy IMO. So you are already on the path.


...when the student is ready the teacher will appear or so it is said...but its all so retroactive and passive...

This is so true. Practice patience. We live in a world of the quick fix or the instant gratification. This does not go with shamanic practices. Recently I had a vision of how hard it is to walk the path of a shaman. It requires that I do it daily for the rest of this life and the next. It is not something that can be done an hour on the weekend. It is a constant struggle. But the rewards are awesome.

When what some call "magic" and "miracles" are allowed to exist around you, those things will appear. Your mind creates your world. ;)


...but I lack the money...

Don't be afraid to be a criminal ;), if that fails see below:

Get a drum and start doing meditation and shamanic drumming. That can put you in a trance. It is very effective.

http://shamanicdrumming.com

You don't even need to spend money on a drum. One time I had a stick that I was beating against a log, next to a fire, like so: dam dam dam dam dam dam. I was doing it for hours and it worked just as well. Although I got blisters in my hand. No pain, no gain.

:cool:

JinRaTensei
05-27-2016, 07:44 PM
thanks dev as always great advice!


Don't be afraid to be a criminal , if that fails see below

XDXD sadly being a criminal these days does not bring money with it automatically...who to steal from when nobody has money ^^
and I am already a criminal far far worse than hitler...since he at least paid taxes XD


When what some call "magic" and "miracles" are allowed to exist around you, those things will appear. Your mind creates your world.

beautifully described and I have already miracles in my life,or so I believe,the problem is more the control and willfully directing part ^^.I to often experience what is called synchronicities but the problem is they are preaching to the quire ^^ I donīt need confirmation but experience.


Also I don't think you need to be a shaman to be on the shamanic path.

Without shamanism no alchemy IMO. So you are already on the path.

very true,I think.this is also what I am looking for the path,experience and control I do not care if others would call me shaman or donkey for doing so.



but I would suggest doing any "activity" in nature as shamanism and nature are strongly linked.

I do almost daily and if I had to rate myself on a scale of how adept oneself is in and with nature I would rate myself 9 out of 10....10 being the reincarnation of crocodile dundee ^^
but is "just" having a connection to nature of any use or rather just personal predilection?like for instance somebody with a predilection for scientific work would choose alchemical lab work as his path but would such a persons connection to his for instance cauldron be a path or a predilection or are they ultimately the same...we choose the path of our liking and what we like is what becomes our path.
many streets lead to rome kinda thing ?!


Although I think to become a shaman you first have to go through illness and then be healed
I am right now and have for the last 2 years which is why I have not given an concrete answer on joining the get together in august.
my problem is I have decided to take the gamble and either find the reason and solution for my illness in nature or death will find me.I have abandoned doctors etc 2 years ago because I somehow now that I need this suffering to grow and solve it myself but nothing is working for me which is how I know I have not yet found my path but I will :)...but this is not why I am on this journey its rather like I never had another choice in this much to boring world ^^.


You don't even need to spend money on a drum. One time I had a stick that I was beating against a log, next to a fire, like so: dam dam dam dam dam dam. I was doing it for hours and it worked just as well. Although I got blisters in my hand. No pain, no gain.

actually you gave me a great idea there..if I understand correctly it is not so much about a specific beat( it just should be monoton and repetitive ?!) but more about the physical and mental exhaustion,I think.so if I would combine such a drumming session with my little green friend MaryJane it should give me transcendental stages which either on its own would not...offcourse I suppose it is a fine line between trance and dehydration XD

Andro
05-27-2016, 08:14 PM
JRT,

1. You don't necessarily have to be initiated by physical teachers. It can happen in OOB or lucid dream simulations (they appear as real as 'real life' when you're in them), but then you will have to apply what you've learned in your 'physical' everyday life.

2. It can take approximately 10 years before you are given the 'green light' to perform shamanic work for others. (that's what it took me)
But you don't need to go all the way to this, you can live a 'shamanic' life without it. To best summarize this experience, it's like existing/moving 'between worlds'. At some point it becomes autonomous/second nature.

3. 'MJ' (cannabis) is actually hindering/blocking lucid dreaming/OOB.

4. You can also use binaural beats or even recorded mp3s of shamanic drumming. Usually they're around 4bps (beats per second - high Delta waves). Not the 'real thing', but it will do the job. Eventually you won't need any external accessories at all.

5. If you don't want to share your health condition publicly, you're welcome to PM me, if so inclined.

6. You are located in Germany, if I'm not mistaken?

JinRaTensei
05-27-2016, 09:21 PM
Andro
thank you very much for your further interest!

1

the will to apply or change ones life accordingly is not the problem if problem is the right term it is rather the lack of control and interpretation
I tried and try every night to achieve something similar to OOB or lucid dreaming but I am not even able to achieve the lowest basics.my dreams are vivid and have no lack of interpretation roads to choose but they are just that dreams.I can not influence or even acuratly remember them.my current approach mainly is daily meditation and certain "tasks" I set myself like trying to force a certain object from my daily life appear in my dreams and for me to remember seeing that object in my dreams but to no avail

2


To best summarize this experience, it's like existing/moving 'between worlds'. At some point it becomes autonomous/second nature.

that is all I try to achieve.I do not believe to be able to help others even if I were to be a experienced shaman.I want to explore and cultivate and if able share with those who desire to know but the healing and leading others is not something I feel to be fated to do o0

I literally canīt even imagine what it must be like to being able to see things similar to the nature of what you have seen and done...but what would life be without goals greater than ordinary men ^^

3
yes I heard that,too...and to be fully honest I can count the days I have not consumed MJ in the last 10 years at one hand but to me MJ brings greater benefits than merely hardening OOB/lucid dreaming.at least it is my current assumption that cannabis just works negatively in those aspects in regard to spiritual work?
being a poker player from more or less choice MJ gives me the calm to sometimes play 7hours in tournaments online in a road without the luxus of making a single wrong decision even once...and still than lady luck can be a cruel mistress ^^.and also MJ makes it easier to watch imaginative landscapes in your head float by like a tv show when you close your eyes which I enjoy watching^^

4

thanks for the hint! naturally I have stumbled on such beats on youtube as has everyone else I always assumed them as easy clickbait and avoided them ^^

5

oh no its no problem just that I thought it to be of no importance to the discussion and it is the most humiliating illness I have seen so far..so I wonīt go shouting it off rooftops if not asked...but due to personal credo I also will never hide anything if asked honestly...personal beliefs are a real bitch XD

since no doctor(6 different of them) could exactly tell me what it is I also can not tell you with certainty what it is or what it is called but it is some kind of funghi or bacterium which has invaded my stomach,is immune to it acid and thereby also in an environment were most classical medicine can not operate.it all happened 2 years ago after I had to stay in a pension for 1 week before being able to move into my new apartment and was exposed to a more than shitty room it being last minute reservation and finding a tiny room with black funghi creeping beneath the walls.after 2 days I got so sick I called ambulance and was taking to hospital were they made all the tests and did the most stupid of all things for me and destroyed my trust in normal medicine.they gave me stomach acid blockers to lower the ph level and stop my pain convulsions...but that also let whatever invaded me spreat all over and nest.long story short no medicine I tried and I tried many worked.

I feel no pain,I have no visible symptoms I am athletic and could run 5KM without problems so no energy deficit of to big proportion to before all would be fine would there not be the cruel fact of the smell.for 2 years I have been living with a smell I can not rid,a smell so foul it has made me a social outcast...would I not earn my money online I could not hold any job.the smell I have lived now with for 2 years is so bad that every person I cross paths looks at me as if I am the most disgusting garbage if I donīt hold my breath.I have abandoned friends,family and love.it has even turned surreal because in the tree in front of my bedroom a bird has started to harass me with its frantic squawking from sunrise at 5:30 to sunset at 21:30 without break.I am truly amazed this births does not stop even for 5 minutes and somehow he has persevered for almost 2 weeks now....quite impressive I have started to kinda like him a bit for that feat actually XDXD. but I do not feel sad nor should anybody pity me because I have already walked many paths in this life and this kinda hell is not even enough to make angry in the least or afraid I just endure and wait because I never fail...but sadly I also never get the easy road...well I guess it also pays of to having once sought a profession in the field of psychology XD

having made you read through all of this I hope I have made both of us regret equally you having asked, just kidding..or am I XD

6. yes I live between the cities Bonn and Cologne if your location is correct I assume to have an idea of the area where I live ^^

Andro
05-27-2016, 09:48 PM
Thanks for the openness!

No, I don't regret me asking and you replying!

And yes, my location is correct :)

For fungus or bacteria, you can try Bioresonance therapy. The 'Bicom' device is rather popular in Germany, but there are practitioners (Heilpraktiker) who use other systems.

Also, speaking from shamanic experience, many types of such fungal/bacterial 'intrusions' also tend to have a non-physical/astral counterpart 'entity' of sorts. You can try visualization techniques to locate such an entity and expel it in your visualizations. Repeat as often as needed. In many cases, it's the non-physical counterparts of the infestation which supply the fungus or bacteria with the 'life force' they need to thrive and stay in your system. Once these are gone, you are much more likely to respond better to treatments.

Edit: For another alternative of Bioresonance therapy, I've heard there's a practitioner in Lübeck who is also extremely spiritual and uses a system called e-Lybra.

JinRaTensei
05-27-2016, 10:58 PM
Andro
thank you very much indeed ^^
since I have never heard of any of the things you mentioned they are absolutely worth checking into and trying out for me!!

Awani
05-28-2016, 10:19 AM
...and I am already a criminal far far worse than hitler...since he at least paid taxes...

Hear hear. Sieg Heil. ;)


'MJ' (cannabis) is actually hindering/blocking lucid dreaming/OOB.


at least it is my current assumption that cannabis just works negatively in those aspects in regard to spiritual work?

This is true when it concerns smoking it (especially on a regular basis) and later going to bed. Although I currently don't work with cannabis anymore you can get a lot from Cannabis if you do it properly: which is to eat it. Then it is possible to get the lucid dream/OOB experience in the waking state.

Go to nature, make a little campfire, ingest some Cannabis (and do a proper chunk... if it is Hashish I would not eat less than 10 gram - but if you never eaten it before maybe try 5 grams first time), sit and beat a monotonous repetative beat till you can't do it anymore. And no need to do this beat "fast" or "hard"... don't worry it will be physically difficult eventually even if you do it fairly slow and soft. ;) If you find this difficult (which it is) then just sit still, eyes closed and meditate.

And do it at night!!! I would even do it without the campfire in the pitch black... but to get your "shamanic" juices flowing there is nothing like a live fire. Also fast (don't eat) before hand as you probably (not certainly) will Purge (puke). Look here (http://www.naturalbornalchemist.com/the-importance-of-ritual/).

As for fungal issues have you tried a sugar detox? Even if it might not cure it, it will certainly make it weaker.


...I do not care if others would call me shaman or donkey for doing so...

Shamans of indigenous cultures are never called shamans. In the Bwiti it is Nganga which really just means a keeper of supranatural powers of healing and clairvoyance and hexes and spells (sort of). In the Shipibo they are called Vegetalista (which just means they are working with plants), or Curandero (healer) or Ayahuasqero (which means they are specialised in working with Ayahuasca in particular, but not only).

I think the reason we call it shaman is due to the fact that northern Europe and Asia calls their Shamans that, or Saman. In Scandinavia there is the Sami people. Sadly the government outlawed their practices, although the Amanita Muscaria is still symbolically important. But that it another story (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2891-Happy-Shroom-Mass).

Personally I use this word [shaman] as I think it is a beautiful word, although I would never utter it in the presence of a Vegetalista for instance as it is a gringo word... and they don't like gringos generally (which is understandable considering what the gringos have done to them).

:cool:

JinRaTensei
05-28-2016, 03:42 PM
thanks for the advice!

Although I currently don't work with cannabis anymore you can get a lot from Cannabis if you do it properly: which is to eat it. Then it is possible to get the lucid dream/OOB experience in the waking state.

just out of curiosity do you mean just eating a Cannabis Bud raw? or do you mean extracting the THC via oil/gas etc and than eating it?...in either case 10g seems huge like a whole bowl of salad made entirely out of Cannabis and priced here were I live at about 120€ for 10g and one single experience.concentrating it via THC extraction and thereby making a much more cost efficient and imo much more potent product like Cannabis oil should do the trick also I suppose?

actually I do similar things, on a very amateurish level 2-3 nights each week.not a problem but what disturbs my mind is that for those activities I go to the darkest parts of my local forest and although I am not a fearful person I still can not shut my subconscious entirely from going into awareness by each unexpected noise as part of some survival instinct.and if I shut sound off via headphones I can not shake the feeling of being defenseless of anything or anybody who wants to sneak up on me but I have started getting better at this...quite ironic imo actually,do be able to even enjoy a single minute of complete peace outside in the darkest nature one has to give up every notion of security and self preservation instincts .true peace seems to be the death of self.



As for fungal issues have you tried a sugar detox? Even if it might not cure it, it will certainly make it weaker.

yes I have twice already and should try a third time doing it properly o0.what broke my neck so to speak the last time after 3 weeks of no sugar(or so I thought) was finding out that no sugar also means no fructose from fruits and some vegetables.basically one would not belief how hard it is to find something eatable without sugar so I strived to doing other methods which seemed more promising to bring results...but I am aware that this is maybe just an excuse for seeking the easy path out...which does not work for me ^^.


Personally I use this word [shaman] as I think it is a beautiful word

I also find it to be a very beautiful word, a magical word itself since it contains the word Mana and the female nature of this practice as in sh for she so I personally always viewed it as referring to the female nature of the magical arts which for me is every magic rooted in nature/gaia as in contrast to magic derived from men/personal consciousness...although I assume the lines between them are only illusory and they arrive from the same "source"

I have to come back regarding the links you posted and the rest you wrote later but a little thanks right here for the time you gifted to me!

Awani
05-28-2016, 04:21 PM
You are welcome.

I mean hashish 10 gram. Never tried the green stuff because hashish is so easy to eat. Just make sure you take it in small digestable bits. 10 grams of hash is cheap, at least in the old days when I did it. Or make cookies. Melt the hash into the butter, THC binds to it. And then make whatever cookie you want with that butter. But for one cookie use at least the same amount as you would in five joints. Macrodose not microdose.

Regardless the reward is greater than the cost. ;)

As for nature at night: no one said the shamanic path is not scary. ;) Try and conquer your fear. Just doing that will give you great joy.

:cool:

zoas23
05-28-2016, 07:43 PM
zoas23

thank you very much for taking the time to elaborate so detailed and with personal pictures!

I wanted to respond to some of the things you mention but at this point

and following

I understand very clearly not just mentally but rather spiritually that like others have also mentioned I have to experience it there is really nothing words can do for me in this regard! I think I also understand the role of trance and transcendental stages of the mind as a whole to the shamanic tradition now much better.

I wanted to walk the path of a shaman but there is nobody to initiate me where I am now
so I wanted to find a way to initiate myself but I came to understand that this initiation is not something mere information as written in books can compensate for
so I wanted to find a way to induce the trance myself but I lack the money and mode of delivery to receive these botanical vehicles.

so what is left for me to do...drink tea,advance my own mental landscape and wait till life itself gives me what I desire.
when the student is ready the teacher will appear or so it is said...but its all so retroactive and passive ^^.why is it said btw that you can not become a shaman but only be initiated sounds like monopolizing the good stuff to me ^^

JinRa... I wrote a LONG reply, but my "token" expired (a forum issue) and I lost the reply.

There's many paths to do something similar... but some paths involve taking HUGE life decisions and some others now.

I.e, I have a friend from France with whom I got in touch for the first time around 1998.
by the year 2000 he had vacations in Bolivia... he met there the Aymara culture... and went back to his normal life in Paris, where he had a nice house, high positions in several hermetic orders, a good job...

... But he wrote me an e-mail: "I can't believe the bullshit I've been living until now, I'm selling all my stuff and moving to Bolivia".... and he did it, he still lives there since 16 years ago.

He became part of the Aymara culture, lives as an Aymara farmer, practices the Aymara shamanism and does not try to write "academic" articles about it (he was a MARVELOUS academic writer on Hermeticism before his travel).

Some years ago he wrote to me an e-mail which made me smile: "Fuck Crowley, Fuck Austin Spare, Fuck Canseliet and Fulcanelli, Fuck the Qabalah and Fuck Flamel... I'm living in the biggest Shaminic Culture of the world, blessed be the Cholas!".

(Cholas is the female Aymaras... the Aymara culture is very Matriarchal).

I laughed about how my friend from Paris changed his previous *glamorous* life for an Aymara lifestyle... but he's so happy there that I get what he means. We* all thought that he was crazy... he showed us that we were stupid. Fantastic! Now I applaud what he did and I admire it.

*We = we had (and have) a few friends in common.

You definitely can't become an Aymara Shaman WITHOUT taking such an adventure.
And it is, of course, a BIG decision.

___________________________________________

BUT BUT BUT... Andro is RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT !!!!

There are many ways to do it and you don't even need a *plant* / *narcotic* / *entheogen*.... You CAN'T become an Aymara Shaman living in Germany, it would not make sense. You have to live with the Aymaras and embrace a whole new lifestyle.

But "Shamanism" is simply an abstract word to describe a lot of practices... and you CAN train yourself without using any *plant*.

Meditation techinques are perfect way to begin. Andro suggested binaural beats and I agree with that idea (they are, of course, not "traditional" of any Shamanic culture... but they are fantastic and there's no need to reject modern technology).

Andro talked about "walking between worlds" (I strongly suggest the book "The Theater and its double" by Antonin Artaud... the idea is expressed so clearly there).

And paraphrasing Huxley: "If the Doors of perception were open..."
An *initiator* can provide some keys, but finally the one who has to open the door is you... no initiator can open the door for you, s/he may give some hints, but that's all.

(A painter can teach you how to paint, but only you can teach you how to become a true artist... and several self-trained artists are more interesting than those who studied with a painter for years -and some others aren't).

__________________________________________

As for the fungi or bacteria: is there any way to isolate it????

If you can isolate it, then maybe you can do your own Antibiogram tests testing different non-lethal substances (to humans) and try to find out what kills this thing.

[of course, I am not sure if you are able to isolate it... if it has spread to some areas of your skin, it should be easy]

Awani
05-28-2016, 07:55 PM
Meditation techinques are perfect way to begin. Andro suggested binaural beats and I agree with that idea (they are, of course, not "traditional" of any Shamanic culture... but they are fantastic and there's no need to reject modern technology).

I agree with this. However my position is firmly rooted below...

Both quotes by Terence McKenna:


“Nature loves courage. You make the commitment and nature will respond to that commitment by removing impossible obstacles. Dream the impossible dream and the world will not grind you under, it will lift you up. This is the trick. This is what all these teachers and philosophers who really counted, who really touched the alchemical gold, this is what they understood. This is the shamanic dance in the waterfall. This is how magic is done. By hurling yourself into the abyss and discovering its a feather bed.”


"Shamanism is not some obscure concern of cultural anthropologists: shamanism is how religion was practised for its first million years. Up until about 12,000 years ago, there was no other form of religion on this planet; that was how people attained some kind of access to the sacred. And so shamanism then becomes about technique, and if any of you are students of the literature of shamanism, you probably know that one of the great overviews of shamanism is contained in Mircea Eliade’s book, Shamanism: The Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy. In other words, shamanism is not so much a religion, as ordinarily conceived, as it is a kind of pre-rational science; a kind of methodology for attaining a certain kind of experience.

Well, if you analyse thousands and thousands of these shamanic experiences, both drug-… both plant-induced and non-plant-induced, the overwhelming connecting thread is boundary dissolution. This is what the experience is that we are all seeking, that we call terrifying, wonderful, desirable, horrible, but what it is, is it’s the experience of having the roof fall in and the floor fall out – all at once! Boundary dissolution. Why should that be so important, so wonderful? Because it acts psychologically, in the human being, like a birth experience. The world is made new. Everything is seen through newly opened eyes.

Now, there are many techniques of shamanism, or attaining this state: celibacy, withholding food, ordeals, flagellation, mutilation – that doesn’t sound like a program for a lot of fun, does it? – and then, hallucinogenic plants.

And I don’t believe that shamanism without hallucinogens is authentic shamanism or comfortable shamanism. Now, this is a great debate in anthropology. Mircea Eliade, on one side, saying “When shamanism turns to narcotics, it has entered a decadent and final phase”. The very use of the word “narcotics” betrays such a botanical naivety that you know you’re not going to be happy with what follows! Wasson, on the hand, said, “A shamanism that does not resort to hallucinogenic plants is a shamanism that has lost its roots”; a shamanism that relies on ordeals, pathological personalities, and withholding of food, is a shamanism that has lost a sense of its techniques and its efficacy."

I don't reject non-plant shamanism as invalid. Not at all. But I think to utterly dismiss it as not necessary for the full shamanic experience is a big mistake.

There are those - few - that can enter these states almost at will... but most people are not those people. And most would not want to be. It would not be nice to suddenly slip between the cracks without having pushed a button. Very freaky... that is why there are some great shamans locked up in mental asylums (sadly) in the Western World.

:cool:

Andro
05-28-2016, 08:06 PM
I wrote a LONG reply, but my "token" expired (a forum issue) and I lost the reply.

It's not a forum issue. See this on what it is and how to prevent it: Log In Time-Out (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3415-Log-In-Time-Out)

JinRaTensei
05-28-2016, 08:59 PM
zoas23


Some years ago he wrote to me an e-mail which made me smile: "Fuck Crowley, Fuck Austin Spare, Fuck Canseliet and Fulcanelli, Fuck the Qabalah and Fuck Flamel... I'm living in the biggest Shaminic Culture of the world, blessed be the Cholas!".


not just you,I donīt even know your friend but it makes me smile,too :).I love people who "do their thing" and pull through,inspiring.

JinRa... I wrote a LONG reply, but my "token" expired (a forum issue) and I lost the reply.although thank you sounds somewhat condescending since...well you know but still thank you very much for the double effort!!



You definitely can't become an Aymara Shaman WITHOUT taking such an adventure.
And it is, of course, a BIG decision.

I came across the term psychonaut derived from an astronaut traveling the psyche which I have come to like quite a bit.I think that term would be the most fitting to describe what I am currently trying to achieve.I always was/am more interested in the traveling/exploring part than the "power" or "abilities" or healing part of a traditional shamanistic path(although I expect that the parts intersect obv.)
so even if at this moment I canīt and would not want to be initiated I still want to achieve the means to see what is currently hidden before my eyes.
not that I fear such a decision or lack the will but I know I am not ready yet and would only bother my teachers ^^.
personally I hope to move to south korea or japan(if fukushima truly turns out to be some hoax for land grabbing purposes) since I always felt the biggest connection to the asian culture and their values of respect and honesty.

Meditation techinques are perfect way to begin. Andro suggested binaural beats and I agree with that idea (they are, of course, not "traditional" of any Shamanic culture... but they are fantastic and there's no need to reject modern technology).


Andro talked about "walking between worlds" (I strongly suggest the book "The Theater and its double" by Antonin Artaud... the idea is expressed so clearly there)


thanks I always love thoughtful reading tips it will go on my list for the next weeks.


And paraphrasing Huxley: "If the Doors of perception were open..."
An *initiator* can provide some keys, but finally the one who has to open the door is you... no initiator can open the door for you, s/he may give some hints, but that's all.


brave new world Huxley? always love when the architects of the current chaos dwelve in melancholia regarding the stupidity of normal men ^^


As for the fungi or bacteria: is there any way to isolate it????

If you can isolate it, then maybe you can do your own Antibiogram tests testing different non-lethal substances (to humans) and try to find out what kills this thing.


thanks great idea.hard to say since the infection seems to be limited to my stomach and its acidic environment,without a clinical biopsy.but currently I am trying a promising treatment path with a alternative medicine called "MMS" in germany which is something similar to chlorane dioxide and which oxidices/kills all foreign pathogens without harming healthy cells and it is one of the very few medicines which function in the stomach acid.But I will keep your advice in the back of my head if this path should also proof to be a failure.

dev

strange synchronicity I just read or rather heard that exact phrase from Terrence today.I like him alot,his "no need to torture yourself if you donīt want to approach" speaks directly to my soul XD...personally I can hardly understand why people would choose self deprivation over botanical vehicles if not forced due to lack of such hallucinogens.maybe it has something to do with a certain view of self mastery and wanting to avoid the middle men who knows....but it certainly is a good way for the "head gurus" to exert some kind of control.

zoas23
05-29-2016, 08:28 AM
I don't reject non-plant shamanism as invalid. Not at all. But I think to utterly dismiss it as not necessary for the full shamanic experience is a big mistake.

There are those - few - that can enter these states almost at will... but most people are not those people. And most would not want to be. It would not be nice to suddenly slip between the cracks without having pushed a button. Very freaky... that is why there are some great shamans locked up in mental asylums (sadly) in the Western World

I'm mostly trying to think for a person who is in the circumstances of JinRa... and trying to say that it is possible to do it.

We are all unbalanced, so I am biased by my own experiences (the altered states of mind have never been a HUGE problem for me... whilst other *normal* skills like reading a map are a nightmare for me).

My main idea is that he doesn't need a *plant* to begin.
One thing I know: our circumstances are never an excuse for saying: "I can't".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRGkcWE22Ug

(this audio was very inspiring for me when my interest in these issues began).

I'm 100% against the "flagellation" paths... but *entheogens* are not, for me, the only PLEASANT path... but I get your point and it is true that it's the most natural path.

So I don't disagree with you. I simply think there are other ways which are also valid and unrelated to self-torture.


It's not a forum issue. See this on what it is and how to prevent it: Log In Time-Out (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3415-Log-In-Time-Out)

Thank you, Andro.

My problem was different and happened to me a few times (I am already "perpetually signed in")... I think that the forum has some sort of counter and it gives a LONG time to hit the "submit reply" button since the moment in which we press the "reply" button and begin to write.

But if you begin to write something, then you go to sleep, you spend the next day doing something else and on the next night you finish your message... then you get this "your token has expired" message WITHOUT being "automatically" logged off. The "log in" doesn't expire, but the time to write the message does.

No need to fix this *problem*... it only happens when you take like 30 hours to finish a message... and probably it's a good thing, because quite often the conversation has already *moved* to other areas.

Awani
05-30-2016, 07:04 AM
I'm mostly trying to think for a person who is in the circumstances of JinRa... and trying to say that it is possible to do...

I agree with your position. :) Like I have said many times; there is no point really giving advice because what is perfect for one cause damage for another. There is nothing to say other than sharing personal direct experience.

Since there are no real facts and that everything is, and is not, it makes it futile to even participate in a forum. My presence here is becoming more and more difficult as I feel it is meaningless to say anything.

So mainly I hang around out of social needs (or the scientist in me that need to document things). And if I ever debate it is more from habit than need. I really feel I have reached a point in my spiritual evolution when it no longer includes other people. When the wisdom is personal, private and of no use to anyone but me.

It is, for me, only about my personal relationship with the Divine Mystery.

:cool:

Andro
05-30-2016, 07:30 AM
Since there are no real facts and that everything is, and is not, it makes it futile to even participate in a forum. My presence here is becoming more and more difficult as I feel it is meaningless to say anything.
“Since we cannot really say anything about anything, let us be content to talk about the way in which we say nothing.” That is an excellent way to organize futility. After all, even nothingness has its dignity: but here not even the dignity of nothingness is respected. There must be the mechanical clicking of the thought machine manufacturing nothing about nothing, as if even nothing had at all costs to be organized, and presented as if it were something. As if it had to be talked about."

~Thomas Merton
So mainly I hang around out of social needs (or the scientist in me that need to document things). And if I ever debate it is more from habit than need.
I really feel I have reached a point in my spiritual evolution when it no longer includes other people. When the wisdom is personal, private and of no use to anyone but me.

So is it closing time soon?


It is, for me, only about my personal relationship with the Divine Mystery.

Other people are just as much a part of the 'Divine Mystery'.

Awani
05-30-2016, 07:47 AM
No need to close anything.


Other people are just as much a part of the 'Divine Mystery'.

And? Don't understand your point in relation to what I wrote.

:cool:

Andro
05-30-2016, 08:01 AM
And? Don't understand your point in relation to what I wrote.

This is why I wrote that other people are just as much a part of the 'Divine Mystery':


I have reached a point in my spiritual evolution when it no longer includes other people. [...] It is, for me, only about my personal relationship with the Divine Mystery.

Awani
05-30-2016, 08:11 AM
Philosophically yes. But it is still an individual evolution that concerns only I and my tribe (at best). And I will not gain much from saying this or that, only from sharing what I have experienced/felt... although I question what good that does to anyone else. Regardless you got to at some point form a private relationship with the Divine Mystery unless your plan is to be a Messiah/Prophet, which for me it isn't.

Although "only the true Messiah would deny being the Messiah"... ;)

:cool:

Andro
05-30-2016, 08:20 AM
sharing what I have experienced/felt... although I question what good that does to anyone else.

I think this sort of sharing (but without the 'debating') can actually be very useful. Sharing mode can do a lot of 'good' IMO, as opposed to preaching/antagonizing mode.


Although "only the true Messiah would deny being the Messiah"... ;)

Haven't we had this particular exchange before? :)

Awani
05-30-2016, 01:33 PM
Ops... this thread got closed by mistake for some reason. It is re-opened now.


I really feel I have reached a point in my spiritual evolution when it no longer includes other people.

Got a PM regarding this quote of me, and I understand it was not fully understood.

When you train to be a Chef you first go to school. You make cooking friends. And you learn a lot from each other. Then after some years you finally graduate as a Chef. You might work under some Master Chef for a few years. And one day you open your own restaurant. At this stage there is nothing more that you can get from other people as far as cooking. Now it is time to find your own voice, and go your own way. You don't need other people anymore in regards of you becoming your own Master Chef.

This is what I mean when I am talking about my spiritual path. It doesn't mean I would reject other people (or not care about them). It just means that at some deep stage the spiritual path is very private, personal and irrelevant to anyone else... and any advice from me would be meaningless for someone else. Doesn't make me better or worse than anyone else. I hope I make myself clear on this issue.

We are not cooking the same dish... (and mine is quite spicy)... :)


Sharing mode can do a lot of 'good' IMO, as opposed to preaching/antagonizing mode.

Agreed.

:cool:

zoas23
05-30-2016, 11:41 PM
Ops... this thread got closed by mistake for some reason. It is re-opened now.



Got a PM regarding this quote of me, and I understand it was not fully understood.

When you train to be a Chef you first go to school. You make cooking friends. And you learn a lot from each other. Then after some years you finally graduate as a Chef. You might work under some Master Chef for a few years. And one day you open your own restaurant. At this stage there is nothing more that you can get from other people as far as cooking. Now it is time to find your own voice, and go your own way. You don't need other people anymore in regards of you becoming your own Master Chef.

This is what I mean when I am talking about my spiritual path. It doesn't mean I would reject other people (or not care about them). It just means that at some deep stage the spiritual path is very private, personal and irrelevant to anyone else... and any advice from me would be meaningless for someone else. Doesn't make me better or worse than anyone else. I hope I make myself clear on this issue.

We are not cooking the same dish... (and mine is quite spicy)... :)



Agreed.

:cool:

LOL... I'm the one who sent a PM "protesting" for your comment.

My "protest" involved the idea that YOU, Mr. Dev, created my favorite Alchemy Forum... with a spirit that is quite an expansion of yourself.
I've also been in circumstances where I NEEDED an URGENT help from my friends, but the help came from you (the fact that I finally didn't need it is pointless or does not matter, the fact is that you offered it).

The idea of creating a collective book... I blame YOU... and the authors are aware that what we paid for the books was very much like a "revere swindle" (You did some tricks to make us pay LESS money than what we should have payed... it doesn't matter if it happened because you had a way to do it... the fact is that you did it).

So I do not buy at all the idea that you are some sort of solipsist... Being myself a *Cheff*, I'd say that knowing a fellow *Cheff* like you is a GREAT privilege for me... and I KNOW I'm not the only one who thinks that way (and I'm sorry that my geographical circumstances don't let me have a dinner at your *restaurant*, but didn't you organize a meeting of several *Cheffs*?).

Love you! And you have no fucking idea of how marvelous you are!

And this is unrelated to the idea if you like "debates" or not... but I KNOW you like friends, companions... and you are far from living this life as a Hermit who has lost his interest in other people. Yeah, your spiritual path is yours, same thing is true for everyone... and yet there is something that makes us, say, participate here... among other things.

Awani
05-30-2016, 11:54 PM
Thank you for the kind words!!! :)

All the nice things you say are heart warming, but in a way none of the things you mention I thought much about when I did them. For me those were all just normal things I think anyone would have done (and if not they should have... LOL).

Luke 6:31 [NIV]: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."


...but didn't you organize a meeting of several *Cheffs*?

Indeed. And we will be dining on the body of Christ, and drink the blood of Christ! ;)


...and you are far from living this life as a Hermit who has lost his interest in other people. Yeah, your spiritual path is yours, same thing is true for everyone... and yet there is something that makes us, say, participate here... among other things.

I don't really know how we got into this track at all... my point was not about not needing other people... I just mean for my own private spiritual path (as well as other peoples private spiritual path) there comes a time when you got to roll up your sleeves and do it on your own. That is all I meant. ;) Compassion I have a lot, although I daily try to express/show more compassion than I do. Personally I could be better (which is part of my spiritual path).

As for being a hermit it is true to a degree. If I don't count my family (which is a part of me) I don't really "hang" with anyone. I like to be in my home and not go out unless I have a reason (usually this involves money... through work I often have to be social but I get paid for that, so it is ok). I guess I go for quality instead of quantity. I try to keep as few friends as possible off-line and online. It goes with another "theory" of mine that (in line with this thread) is a bit shamanic in a sense.

Historically the word "sacred"is connected with the area around a temple: the sanctum. If my body is a temple then everything around me, a circumference at arms length, is sacred space. Anything that happens in that circle is sacred. And that includes the people I allow inside that sphere.

:cool:

Andro
05-31-2016, 06:42 AM
LOL... I'm the one who sent a PM "protesting" for your comment.

It is known to happen from time to time... you sending 'protest' PMs of righteous indignation :) That's sweet!

I understand better now what dev meant.

And now that I understand better, I see how I myself am not that different after all. (Am I doing the 'Leo thing' again, saying how it is for me? :))

I also hardly allow anyone into my 'sacred space' ('home and family').

I also (mostly) see/talk with other people for work reasons, although mostly through Skype or OOB - not in person)

The only person whom I ever considered a 'spiritual' mentor has betrayed me miserably.

While I enjoy hearing different perspectives, my path is my own and I can't 'take' anyone with me on this path even if I wanted to. But it doesn't mean I have to walk alone.

One day we'll all be drinking together in Valhalla. First round on me.

Awani
05-31-2016, 06:53 AM
Well I think that kind of shows that you have gone beyond your mentor. The student is now the teacher.


While I enjoy hearing different perspectives, my path is my own and I can't 'take' anyone with me on this path even if I wanted to. But it doesn't mean I have to walk alone.

Maybe I should have expressed myself like this and saved people from doing about twenty posts. LOL. At least we ain't wasting paper writing these.

:cool: