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zoas23
06-06-2016, 02:07 PM
Why is Fulcanelli so popular?

That's a big question mark for me. At least in the Spanish speaking world, he is definitely considered the #1 alchemist.

If you go to a *normal* bookstore, you won't find ANY books about alchemy... with the exception of one of the two books by Fulcanelly... which are quite likely to be there.

If you ask a person who only has a minor interest in alchemy to name a famous alchemist, in most of the cases you'll hear "Fulcanelli".

We currently have another thread about him: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4749-Be-Careful-with-Fulcanelli!

But this one has the intention of being more "relaxed"... so only 2 questions:

1) Is Fulcanelli extremely relevant for you? Why?

2) Why do you think that he became the "most popular" or even "mainstream" alchemist when his books are not really the most "user-friendly" books on the subject?

Michael Sternbach
06-06-2016, 02:53 PM
Because he is one of few better known contemporary alchemists. He is even believed to have reached the highest heights of the art. According to Canseliet, he could rejuvenate himself, became an immortal, and ascended to a higher plane of existence.

That he is so mysterious and intangible contributes to his myth. Some kind of Doctor Who, really!

My own introduction to Fulcanelli (in fact, to alchemy) was by The Morning of the Magicians, a book I read with great interest as a teenager.

What does he mean to me now? Well, I still find the legend around him inspiring, whether it's based on facts or not. And I read what he has written with interest, but I don't necessarily consider him more reliable than other authors. At the moment, I tend more towards Medieval alchemists like Geber, Lull, Arnald, but I consider that, in practical alchemy, it's important to keep an open mind.

z0 K
06-06-2016, 05:40 PM
I wrote some comments for the other thread but did not post because those folks are discussing processes. Fulcanelli has no process. It is just entertainment. That’s why Fulcanelli is so popular.

Fulcanelli is not relevant to lab work for me. It did fascinate me with the historical perspective on the Cathedrals and the curious alchemical emblems found there and in some dwellings. That material was the most interesting but it was plagiarized.

Fulcanelli was not an alchemist nor was he a contemporary of anyone, just a composite character like Harry Potter invented to serve a purpose and that was entertainment.

Morning of the Magicians was a very popular book full of the best enticing lore from alchemy and other mysterious subjects. It inspired many to investigate alchemy further. So did Harry Potter and Full Metal Alchemist cartoons.

Since Fulcanelli was an invented character why would anyone want to study the lab work of his apprentice. It is all the folly of those creators of Fulcanelli believing in their creation.

This Fulcanelli phenomenon reminds me of the Mandela Effect discussed in another thread. People still see Elvis in Burger King and Jesus in a ham sandwich. Alchemists still try to put together some lab experiments based on Fulcanelli’s writings even though it is fairly common knowledge on internet alchemy forums that Fulcanelli was an invention of possibly three people.

True Initiate
06-06-2016, 07:13 PM
What concerns enigmatic statues carved in stone there are not much alternatives. Fulcanelli is one of the few who deals with it. I would love to read a book about Stephansdom cathedral in Vienna but there isn't such a book.

zoas23
06-06-2016, 11:46 PM
Interesting perspectives.

Fulcanelli and Canseliet (specially Canselit) have been a BIG influence for me, but mostly their ways of making comparisons between alchemy and art in their own peculiar ways (I prefer Canseliet in that sense). Though I am still surprised by the popularity of Fulcanelli... probably one of the least "user-friendly" alchemists I could mention.

Your vision, z0 K, is very interesting for me... the idea that the "process of Fulcanelli" doesn't exist. I can't give my opinion on the subject, but I can say that if there is one, then it's for sure one of the most complicated ones ever imagined (or at least his way of explaining it).

pierre
06-07-2016, 02:13 AM
In a few words, I think the myth of Fulcanelli touches some archetype of our unconscious, which makes us identify with him.
The mysterious and unfashionable character, follower of a tradition invaluable and almost lost, possessed of an ancient wisdom, are irresistible engaging elements.
Come on, who does not like being Fulcanelli?
Clearly, we are psychologically projected on him. At least I believe so...

Awani
06-07-2016, 07:15 PM
At least in the Spanish speaking world, he is definitely considered the #1 alchemist.

Strange. Thought it would be Llull.

I think Paracelsus, Roger Bacon, John Dee, Count de Saint Germain, Cagliostro and Basil Valentinus would be - in general - the most famous names.

:cool:

zoas23
06-07-2016, 09:15 PM
Strange. Thought it would be Llull.
I think Paracelsus, Roger Bacon, John Dee, Count de Saint Germain, Cagliostro and Basil Valentinus would be - in general - the most famous names.

Hahaha... no, not at all. Though there is an area of fame for Llull:the Island of Mallorca in Spain... but mostly because he is the local hero.
In the rest of the Spanish speaking world... the levels of popularity would be:
Paracelsus: similar to Woody Allen... who hasn't watched a film by him?

Roger Bacon: Parajanov

John Dee: Stan Brakhage

Saint Germain: a weird case... he is famous among the followers of a very widespread school of Spiritism (Kardec) that follows the teachings received in alleged channelings by Cony Mendez (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conny_M%C3%A9ndez) and Rubén Cedeño (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rub%C3%A9n_Cede%C3%B1o)... though both of them and their disciples constantly write books by "Saint Germain", who somehow replaced "Jesus" in their Religion... commonly known as the Religion of "I am" (or "Yo soy" in Spanish... a phrase that "Saint Germain" told Cony Mendez during a channeling, obviously taken from the Hebrew AHYH and the episode of Moses when he received the laws).
So the "Saint Germain" that is popular is mostly Cony Mendez's Saint Germain... unrelated to Alchemy and actually unrelated to Saint Germain. Some books of this weird trend:

http://www.grupotomo.com.mx/images/media/lowres/140-9.jpg http://www.bohindra.com/static/img/portadas/9786077628200.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WqsEEDA3POc/TmjNZyFPZPI/AAAAAAAAAdY/cL8nqRvkZSg/s1600/platicas-de-yo-soy-saint-germain.jpg http://images-cloud.fiuxy.com/FZRs5KC.jpg

The titles of these books by "Saint Germain" are, following the order in which I showed them:
-"The Practice of the Flames (I am the resurrection and the life. I am the light, the path and the truth)"
-The Violets of love
-Conversations about "I am"
-Knowledge of the Being in depth.

So THIS Saint Germain is somehow "famous", but unrelated to alchemy and unrelated to the real Saint-Germain.

Cagliostro: Derek Jarman

Basil Velentine: Dziga Vertov

(There is however a school of Kardecian spiritism, the "competence" of Cony Mendez, called "Basil Valentine"... but they don't relate this name to the Alchemist, but a spirit that used that name and is NOT the alchemist).

____________________________________________

Fulcanelli is definitely the "most popular" in the Spanish speaking countries. I wouldn't be able to say who is the "second most famous", but the second is miles away from Fulcanelli.

____________________________________________

Of course, I assumed that the situation was identical all over the word. Those who aren't shy about where they live:

Where do you live and who is the most popular alchemist in your country?

Michael Sternbach
06-08-2016, 12:58 AM
I live in Switzerland, and the most famous alchemist here is Paracelsus. Quite recently, I visited the pharmacy museum in Basel which is located in a house frequently visited by Theophrastus, because a rich long term patient of his was living there. Besides loads of pharmaceutical preparations, you can see two restored alchemical laboratories there. Those of you who visit Switzerland, don't miss the opportunity to visit this inspiring exhibition (and do drop me a message in advance :)).

Awani
06-08-2016, 08:21 AM
Most popular in Scandinavia are Strindberg and Swedenborg.

:cool:

zoas23
02-23-2017, 05:43 AM
I was about to create a new thread, but I remembered this one and I thought it was better to use it instead of creating a new one.

O.K... I am not a rabid enthusiast of the path of Fulcanelli (I simply like how he somehow inaugurated a new way of perceiving art)... So I have a silly question that his most rabid enthusiasts will know:

I saw several times quotes from some interviews to Fulcanelli... though they never explain which one is the source. However, if I saw "quotes", then I assume that they are published somewhere... which ones are the SOURCES of the "interviews" with Fulcanelli???

JDP
02-23-2017, 07:50 AM
I was about to create a new thread, but I remembered this one and I thought it was better to use it instead of creating a new one.

O.K... I am not a rabid enthusiast of the path of Fulcanelli (I simply like how he somehow inaugurated a new way of perceiving art)... So I have a silly question that his most rabid enthusiasts will know:

I saw several times quotes from some interviews to Fulcanelli... though they never explain which one is the source. However, if I saw "quotes", then I assume that they are published somewhere... which ones are the SOURCES of the "interviews" with Fulcanelli???

As far as I am concerned, seeing as the man's very own identity has been a matter of endless debates, in order for anyone to prove that they have access to an "interview" with him would also have to provide proof that the person being interviewed was in fact "Fulcanelli".

Regarding the "path of Fulcanelli": there is no such thing. He simply follows an old method whereby the secret solvent is produced in a solid form, instead of the more common liquid form.

Regarding how he "inaugurated a new way of perceiving art": Fulcanelli was not a very original writer. Even that whole idea that churches/cathedrals and other old religious or civil buildings have alchemical messages/knowledge in public display in the manner of pictographs/drawings/paintings/statues was already around since at least late antiquity. One of the earliest mentions of this I have found so far is in the alchemical dialogue between two (apparently Egyptian) Kings called Marqunis and Sanfaja, which appears to have been originally an Alexandrian or Byzantine text, but has only partly survived to our times in its medieval Arabic rendering. That text already refers to a woman alchemist who built a temple which she decorated with alchemical pictures/drawings so that aspiring alchemists would stop bothering her with questions and would go and learn the secrets of the trade for themselves. Incidentally, this same alchemical dialogue is also the thus far discovered oldest source that already mentions the solid form of the secret solvent. So Fulcanelli did not invent any of these key features (1. Solid form of the secret solvent 2. Alchemical meaning in paintings/drawings/pictographs/statuary found in old buildings) of his two books. The only thing that appears original in an alchemical setting is that whole "phonetic cabala" thing, which so far I have not been able to discover in any alchemical author before him (but Fulcanelli himself implies that he did not invent this, and he cites older authors who already used these kinds of "games" with words. But alas! none of the sources he cites regarding this are written by alchemists. I am talking about an actual alchemical author who makes this claim; so far I have not found any older than Fulcanelli.)

zoas23
02-23-2017, 08:57 AM
As far as I am concerned, seeing as the man's very own identity has been a matter of endless debates, in order for anyone to prove that they have access to an "interview" with him would also have to provide proof that the person being interviewed was in fact "Fulcanelli".

Yes, that's right. Though I still keep the question... which ones are the sources of the "maybe fake" interviews?


Regarding the "path of Fulcanelli": there is no such thing. He simply follows an old method whereby the secret solvent is produced in a solid form, instead of the more common liquid form.

Yes, that's what I don't like... It is surprising for me that such an elegant writer had chosen such a non-elegant path. This is an aesthetical consideration.



Regarding how he "inaugurated a new way of perceiving art": Fulcanelli was not a very original writer.

I think this one is his biggest contribution to alchemy (and Canseliet did it better, I don't care if he didn't make the stone). Of course, you can find sources in which such thing is done too (two novels I love and which clearly do it are the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnerotomachia_Poliphili) and the Manuscript found in Zaragoza (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manuscript_Found_in_Saragossa) ... though they are novels, not essays). BUT I give him the credit of having a marvelous sense of association of ideas.
I do believe that a LOT of his claims are simply the result of a pareidolia... BUT I love the pareidolia effect (same thing goes for Canseliet).
I.e, I think that Moby-Dick is the perfect alchemical novel... but it can be my pareidolia and MAYBE Melville had no alchemical intentions at all... but does it matter?
I am sure it has happened to you at least one time: you saw the book or painting or sculpture of a friend of yours who knows NOTHING about alchemy and you see in it something 100% alchemical... so does it matter if he didn't have an alchemical intention?


The only thing that appears original in an alchemical setting is that whole "phonetic cabala" thing, which so far I have not been able to discover in any alchemical author before him (but Fulcanelli himself implies that he did not invent this, and he cites older authors who already used these kinds of "games" with words. But alas! none of the sources he cites regarding this are written by alchemists. I am talking about an actual alchemical author who makes this claim; so far I have not found any older than Fulcanelli.)

I think he coined the term and maybe no other author speaks about it, but it's quite obvious in several texts. Some medieval treatises written in Spanish use a lot the "concept" that Fulcanelli describes (the ones I know are more "funny" than "deep", in most cases written as poems)... and several French authors do it in a very hilarious way. It doesn't always work as Fulcanelli wants it to work, but some texts use techniques which get VERY close to what he describes. The Rosicrucian texts (I know you are not in love with them) contain a lot of the same "effect".

His theory of the horse is a bit hilarious though...

Hmmm... do you have the "Alchemy Forums Anthology"? If not, then I'd like to send you a copy for free as to show you an essay about language (I wrote it and I would like to know what you think about it).

Illen A. Cluf
02-23-2017, 01:56 PM
I was about to create a new thread, but I remembered this one and I thought it was better to use it instead of creating a new one.

O.K... I am not a rabid enthusiast of the path of Fulcanelli (I simply like how he somehow inaugurated a new way of perceiving art)... So I have a silly question that his most rabid enthusiasts will know:

I saw several times quotes from some interviews to Fulcanelli... though they never explain which one is the source. However, if I saw "quotes", then I assume that they are published somewhere... which ones are the SOURCES of the "interviews" with Fulcanelli???

I think you might be referring to "The Morning of the Magicians" by Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier, written in 1960. See:

https://www.amazon.com/Morning-Magicians-Louis-Pauwels/dp/0880291915/ref=pd_cp_14_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0880291915&pd_rd_r=NWDB3QP6WP3A3JWNB9TQ&pd_rd_w=55ZcX&pd_rd_wg=W1qFh&psc=1&refRID=NWDB3QP6WP3A3JWNB9TQ

BTW, a close friend saw someone who claimed to be Fulcanelli at the famous Chateau Heuroville in Paris in June 21, 1971, during a recording session. Fulcanelli had just come from an exhibit of the late Jean Cocteau's work at his home. He gave my friend a signed colored pen and pencil drawing of Le Table Ronde by Cocteau.

zoas23
02-23-2017, 10:29 PM
I think you might be referring to "The Morning of the Magicians" by Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier, written in 1960. See:

https://www.amazon.com/Morning-Magicians-Louis-Pauwels/dp/0880291915/ref=pd_cp_14_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0880291915&pd_rd_r=NWDB3QP6WP3A3JWNB9TQ&pd_rd_w=55ZcX&pd_rd_wg=W1qFh&psc=1&refRID=NWDB3QP6WP3A3JWNB9TQ

Oh, yes, I know that book.... So that's the source. I once had it, but I only read the first part and then hated it so much that I gave it to a friend. Thank you! So that's the source.


BTW, a close friend saw someone who claimed to be Fulcanelli at the famous Chateau Heuroville in Paris in June 21, 1971, during a recording session. Fulcanelli had just come from an exhibit of the late Jean Cocteau's work at his home. He gave my friend a signed colored pen and pencil drawing of Le Table Ronde by Cocteau.

Well, that's nice... I'm glad to hear that when he got older he understood that contemporary art is by far more interesting than medieval art!
Is it even possible not to ADORE Jean Cocteau?

(now in my imagination his famous third part of the unfinished trilogy, Finis Gloriae Mundi, was all about Dadá and Surrealism and explaining that there's more worth in the works of Duchamp than in the whole cathedrals of the world... but decided that the world was not ready to understand such a higher truth).

Illen A. Cluf
02-24-2017, 02:16 PM
Is it even possible not to ADORE Jean Cocteau?

(now in my imagination his famous third part of the unfinished trilogy, Finis Gloriae Mundi, was all about Dadá and Surrealism and explaining that there's more worth in the works of Duchamp than in the whole cathedrals of the world... but decided that the world was not ready to understand such a higher truth).

You (and others on the forum) might enjoy this surrealistic play called: "Fulcanelli's Shoes" which delves into the relationship between the artisitic and the alchemical worlds of Fulcanelli and Jean Cocteau.

https://vimeo.com/20105017

Here's a description of the play:

Reconsider your histories. We live in an age of holocaust deniers and the Da Vinci Code, the information age has become the age of fabricating the past. Reality has become something malleable, flexible to the needs and whims of whomever happens to be recalling what has already been.

"Fulcanelli's Shoes" is a response of sorts to this cultural phenomenon, by artist, composer and writer Ergo Phizmiz. Weaving a tale with one foot paddling in truth, and the other firmly embedded in lies, the piece presents a rewritten cultural history of the 20th century, presenting the relationship between the artistic and alchemical worlds at the beginning of the century as the catalyst for the creative, scientific and political revolutions of the proceeding times.

Discover how Jean Cocteau could travel in time; the secrets of the Large Hadron Collider; hear a genuine alchemical transmutation of base metal into gold; find out how anagrams built the universe; learn how to fix anything that is broken .....

Part lecture, part opera, part documentary, this is a uniquely 21st century artwork, bringing together strands of forms into a unified but scattershot form. Collaborating with film-maker Martha Moopette and performer Vulnavia Vanity, Ergo Phizmiz has created a truly experimental piece of anti-art, with the feel of something akin to being kicked in the face with a Ferrero Rocher boot.

Recorded live at Soundart Radio, Dartington, UK, February 5th 2011.
Written, Composed, Narrated & Produced by ERGO PHIZMIZ
Shadow-Puppets, Animation, Video editing, Consultancy by MARTHA MOOPETTE
Music based on themes by
ERIK SATIE
CAMILLE SAINT-SAENS
CLAUDE DEBUSSY
MAURICE RAVEL
CLAUDIO MONTEVERDI
EDVARD GRIEG
FRANCIS POULENC
IGOR STRAVINSKY
GIOVANNIA BATTISTA PERGOLESI
GEORGES AURIC
With film extracts from
JEAN COCTEAU
KAREL ZEMAN
HANS RICHTER
JOSEF VON BAKY
MICHAEL POWELL & EMERIC PRESSBURGER
SERGEI EISENSTEIN
JACQUES TATI
ORSON WELLES
ALEXANDER CALDER
FERNAND LEGER

zoas23
02-24-2017, 05:14 PM
Illen!!!!!

I saw the first part and I couldn't finish the last part because I'm a bit sick (fever).

But YES... this play is pure gold to me. Satie & Debussy!!! The two musicians associated with Joséphin Péladan into the creation of an occult avant-garde (I have a love-hate relationship with Péladan... he had so many negative traits, and yet he is, for me, the true inventor of the avant-garde art).

And a marvelous selection of the best Dadá & Surreal filmmakers... and a few classics who are beyond those movements, but fantastic (monsieur Tati!!!).

NOW this is pure gold to me... it is EXACTLY what I adore and love. You are not wrong at all when you say that I may enjoy it.... I am speechless! (I have a web that is solely devoted to contemporary artists doing these things).

Illen A. Cluf
02-24-2017, 06:50 PM
Illen!!!!!

I saw the first part and I couldn't finish the last part because I'm a bit sick (fever).

But YES... this play is pure gold to me. Satie & Debussy!!! The two musicians associated with Joséphin Péladan into the creation of an occult avant-garde (I have a love-hate relationship with Péladan... he had so many negative traits, and yet he is, for me, the true inventor of the avant-garde art).

And a marvelous selection of the best Dadá & Surreal filmmakers... and a few classics who are beyond those movements, but fantastic (monsieur Tati!!!).

NOW this is pure gold to me... it is EXACTLY what I adore and love. You are not wrong at all when you say that I may enjoy it.... I am speechless! (I have a web that is solely devoted to contemporary artists doing these things).

I knew you would enjoy it! It's synchronistic how it combines Fulcanelli, Cocteau, Satie, Debussy, and your fascination for this type of surrealistic anti-art form. Hope you improve soon and can view the rest of this insane play!

zoas23
02-24-2017, 07:55 PM
I knew you would enjoy it! It's synchronistic how it combines Fulcanelli, Cocteau, Satie, Debussy, and your fascination for this type of surrealistic anti-art form. Hope you improve soon and can view the rest of this insane play!

Yes! It seems to be an artist who shares my obsessions. I will try to contact him as to see if he wants to display some of his works at my web.
But you perfectly understood what I like!

His play made me remember a LOT of my favorite Theater Play, which is "Artaud Remembers Adolf Hitler and the Romanische Café" by the Berliner Ensemble* (which is not truly related to alchemy, but the contradictions of the avant-garde).

*The theater company created by Bertolt Brecht and later re-shaped by the GENIUS Heiner Müller...

This other play is about an actor playing the role of Artaud, who remembers to have seen Hitler at a pub and gives a radio message to him (which is the whole of the play).
Artaud is at a "radio station" broadcasting with the hope that Hitler will listen and will help him to reshape art by labeling the whole of the art of the past as "degenerate art" and create a new vital art, but explaining again and again how the past must be destroyed, that there is a destructive work that has to be done.

It is a marvelous play because the Berliner Ensemble is certainly opposed to Nazism and it is an avant-garde theater company... but this play makes a comparison between Nazism and the logic of the avant-garde art... which is very cruel, but clever. A very cruel criticism of the avant-garde by an avant-garde theater company (probably the best company in the world).

Several years ago I wrote an essay about Duchamp and Alchemy in Spanish. (http://salonarcano.com.ar/galeria/contenidos/literatura/ensayos/duchamp/DUCHAMP.htm).. I will translate the introduction, because it's quite related to how I think:


We constantly fall into an error: Where is the genuine alliance between Alchemy and Art? "In the Gothic Cathedral" echoes the chorus with Fulcanelli.

But when did the choirs have said something sensible, genuine or honest?

The confluence of Alchemy and Art will occur at each time in the place where the culture is boiling; In the place where the Royal Art can subvert our culture.

If the quintessential site of prehistoric culture is the cave, the Alchemical Art will show up there with a bird-headed man with an erect phallus who stings a bull using a lance.

If the Temple and the funeral rites are the two great spheres of the classical culture, that is where Alchemy will find its vehicle of manifestation through art.

Clearly in an era of ecclesiastical rule, the Cathedral will be the justified canvas.

When there is a bourgeoisie that likes to change its place of living from Palazzo to Palazzo according to the mood of the day, the need for a new transportable format like the painting will make the disciples of Marsilio Ficino choose this as the new way to immanentize the eschaton.

In an age where culture finds one of its main paths in the galleries and museums, it is not surprising then that these ones will become the battleground of the new Farmers of Heaven.

I used to be by far more "punk" when I wrote such thing... nowadays I like both classical and avant-garde art... BUT I still think that if we get obsessed with the gothic cathedrals, then we are losing some 800 years of our tradition (I also find it odd when I see persons talking about alchemy and always using the past tense... "The alchemists were...", "Alchemy was...", "The old alchemists transmuted...", etc... I LOVE the classics, I even think that there's no way to go further without them... But speaking about it always in the past tense? It does not make sense at all to me.)

So I love this work that takes out Fulcaneli from the Cathedrals and brings him to the XX century early avant-garde movements. If not, we are always trapped into something that looks almost like the myth of the "noble savage"... and the idea that the future is in the past (holy nostalgia... well, we don't live in the past, we have to deal with such thing... and nothing is uglier than living in the past***).

*** These new modern medieval festivals with a weird cosplay are the most silly thing I saw in my life. I think that people who goes to pokemon cosplay meetings are even more clever than those who get into medieval cosplay... even if the two things are absurd to me.

Illen A. Cluf
02-24-2017, 08:53 PM
(I also find it odd when I see persons talking about alchemy and always using the past tense... "The alchemists were...", "Alchemy was...", "The old alchemists transmuted...", etc... I LOVE the classics, I even think that there's no way to go further without them... But speaking about it always in the past tense? It does not make sense at all to me.)

So I love this work that takes out Fulcaneli from the Cathedrals and brings him to the XX century early avant-garde movements. If not, we are always trapped into something that looks almost like the myth of the "noble savage"... and the idea that the future is in the past (holy nostalgia... well, we don't live in the past, we have to deal with such thing... and nothing is uglier than living in the past***).


Interesting comment. I think that the reason why some refer to the past alchemists is that they regard them as the more legitimate source of alchemical understanding. In more recent times, these people (myself included) feel that alchemy has come off the tracks and has completely distorted what the past alchemists were trying to say. For the most part, alchemy doesn't modernize. It is a specific process that only works in a specific way. So alchemy doesn't really relate to past or modern trends. Thus, for these people, we revere the past and find the writings far more valid than the more modern writings.

But for other things, I agree. We all seem to think that the past was better. Sure, things were more romantic then, and much more honorable, but today's society is so much better off than the past society. Health, education, science, medicine, technology, have all improved immensely. The only major things that have not changed for the better are politics and religion. Those are the two past Demons that we seem unable to ever improve upon.

zoas23
02-24-2017, 09:13 PM
Interesting comment. I think that the reason why some refer to the past alchemists is that they regard them as the more legitimate source of alchemical understanding. In more recent times, these people (myself included) feel that alchemy has come off the tracks and has completely distorted what the past alchemists were trying to say. For the most part, alchemy doesn't modernize. It is a specific process that only works in a specific way. So alchemy doesn't really relate to past or modern trends. Thus, for these people, we revere the past and find the writings far more valid than the more modern writings.

If we are talking about the quite famous contemporary authors who offer their $1000 dollars seminars (no need to offer names, we all know who they are)... then you are right.
Other than that, some simply technologies probably improved the practice of alchemy (I assume that most of the "old" alchemists would have LOVED to have something as simple as a digital thermometer).
But I don't agree with the idea of a "lost tradition"... I actually think that at all times there were persons doing something of worth and persons doing nonsense. I simply don't like the mentality of "how unlike I am! If only I had been born in the XIII century!"... this does not mean that I do not adore the classics (I do and this is not limited to alchemy).


But for other things, I agree. We all seem to think that the past was better. Sure, things were more romantic then, and much more honorable, but today's society is so much better off than the past society. Health, education, science, medicine, technology, have all improved immensely. The only major things that have not changed for the better are politics and religion. Those are the two past Demons that we seem unable to ever improve upon.

Yeah, I don't get the "Romantic vision" of the past... some people has different fetishes with different times (i.e, those who think that the classical Athens was like a paradise and do not realize that it was a society ruled by a small elite and based on slave work -I love Plato, but he was far from living in "Paradise").

The hemlock is present at all times, it simply "mutates"... and there is always someone being forced to drink it under different shapes. No need to romanticize the past.

Illen A. Cluf
02-24-2017, 09:36 PM
If we are talking about the quite famous contemporary authors who offer their $1000 dollars seminars (no need to offer names, we all know who they are)... then you are right.
Other than that, some simply technologies probably improved the practice of alchemy (I assume that most of the "old" alchemists would have LOVED to have something as simple as a digital thermometer).
But I don't agree with the idea of a "lost tradition"... I actually think that at all times there were persons doing something of worth and persons doing nonsense. I simply don't like the mentality of "how unlike I am! If only I had been born in the XIII century!"... this does not mean that I do not adore the classics (I do and this is not limited to alchemy).

That's why I said "for the most part". I do believe that some processes were improved, but that the basics remained the same. I actually DO believe that alchemy today is mostly a "lost tradition", and I wouldn't hesitate to say that there is nobody alive today that has actually made the true Philosophers Stone. I also STRONGLY believe that the majority - if not all - of the processes commonly talked about today are totally off the mark.




Yeah, I don't get the "Romantic vision" of the past... some people has different fetishes with different times (i.e, those who think that the classical Athens was like a paradise and do not realize that it was a society ruled by a small elite and based on slave work -I love Plato, but he was far from living in "Paradise").

Life in those days was certainly not as rosy as many seem to suggest. However, there were periods such as during the Renaissance, when the pursuit for knowledge was encouraged, and knightly honor, dignity and honesty was also highly encouraged and practiced. Today, honor, honesty and dignity has lost most of its meaning, and few practice it.

zoas23
02-24-2017, 10:37 PM
That's why I said "for the most part". I do believe that some processes were improved, but that the basics remained the same. I actually DO believe that alchemy today is mostly a "lost tradition", and I wouldn't hesitate to say that there is nobody alive today that has actually made the true Philosophers Stone. I also STRONGLY believe that the majority - if not all - of the processes commonly talked about today are totally off the mark.

I don't agree with the idea of a "lost tradition"... I think that the amount of people doing nonsense compared to the amount of people doing something of worth was more or less similar at all times.


Life in those days was certainly not as rosy as many seem to suggest. However, there were periods such as during the Renaissance, when the pursuit for knowledge was encouraged, and knightly honor, dignity and honesty was also highly encouraged and practiced. Today, honor, honesty and dignity has lost most of its meaning, and few practice it.

I love a lot of Renaissance authors... but do you mean the times when the Americas were being raped in a greedy search for gold? The times in which the Church was selling indulgences of salvation and people were buying them as candy? The times in which the Medici family did both amazing things and the most corrupt things?

The Golden Age is happening all the time... The worst time is also happening all the time.

A quote that I love... by Wittgenstein:

" If good or bad willing changes the world, it can only change the limits of the world, not the facts; not the things that can be expressed in language.
In brief, the world must thereby become quite another. It must so to speak wax or wane as a whole. The world of the happy man is a different one from that of the unhappy man".

Hahaha... I like it when conversations travel from subject to subject... but my dear Andro gets nervous when such thing happens.

Illen A. Cluf
02-24-2017, 11:09 PM
Hahaha... I like it when conversations travel from subject to subject... but my dear Andro gets nervous when such thing happens.

Yes, I think we're down to opinions now, and we are definitely straying off course.

archerner
02-25-2017, 05:54 PM
I appreciate Fulcanelli because he is unique, very well written, mysterious and complicated.

If anyone has a spare copy of The Dwellings of the Philosophers lying around I'd love to have it!

Florius Frammel
06-02-2017, 10:44 AM
What concerns enigmatic statues carved in stone there are not much alternatives. Fulcanelli is one of the few who deals with it. I would love to read a book about Stephansdom cathedral in Vienna but there isn't such a book.

I recognized interesting symbols on the Stephansdom too when I visited Vienna. For example, what I saw immediately was the Woman and the lion and she held the lion's head just like on the tarot card "La Force". It is above the main entrance on the right side.

I am reading Fulcanellis Cathedrals these days and it has quite an effect on me. I like to think about those language of the birds thing and come up with some play on word by myself. Further, after having thought about the symbol of the old man finding the alcahest in the roots of a hollow oaktree and Fulcanelli referring to Maria as the Morningstar and "the root" I remembered that in my hometown until the 1920ies there was still a hollow oaktree called "Donarseiche" (Oak of Thor/Donar), where people put through small sick babies so that they get well again. The priest of course, should not have known anything about those things.
Now very close to where this tree was standing, today there is still an ancient coppermill. It didn't really blew my mind, but this is a connection only I could discover, so it was quite fun. If it's any worth or not.

True Initiate
08-22-2017, 09:17 AM
After reading Fulcanelli yet again i am more and more inclined to think that it was authored by few people. The reason being that some parts of the book contradict the other parts. The brilliant part of the book is how to read a cathedral like a book carved in stone (authored by R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz) but the most important part, about practical alchemy was authored by Champagne.
This explains why Canseliet was totally lacking the brilliance of Fulcanelli in his own works because he was only the pupil of Champagne but not of R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz!!

The mystery of the cathedrals which bears encrypted insights into the practical alchemical opus, can be recognised as a fluid amalgam of

(1) Schwaller’s material on the alchemical symbolique of the cathedrals;

(2) numerous symbolic digressions on the ‘phonetic kabbalah’ adapted from the work of the deeply erudite classicist and Hermetic philosopher, Pierre Dujols (1862-1926); and

(3) the overall synthesis and presentation of Champagne himself, who also furnished the illustrations.

Great article about this matter:

http://www.aaroncheak.com/call-of-fire/

Illen A. Cluf
08-22-2017, 02:00 PM
Great article about this matter:

http://www.aaroncheak.com/call-of-fire/

Aaron Cheak is likely the World's greatest authority on Rene Schwaller de Lubicz.

Coleridgean
08-31-2017, 12:17 AM
Oh lol so that's where Illen comes from. IllenACluf fulCAnellI

Kibric
08-31-2017, 12:33 AM
boo

Illen A. Cluf
08-31-2017, 02:13 AM
Oh lol so that's where Illen comes from. IllenACluf fulCAnellI

Yes, kind of neat how it worked out, although it sounds a little old-fashioned and stiff with that middle initial. I also considered "Illena Cluf" as a possibility but it seemed to be a feminine name.

Fulcanelli's book made a huge impact on me when I first started studying alchemy, and I must have read his books cover to cover at least 6-8 times.

The avatar is also from Fulcanelli's book (Dwellings).

IMO, the reason he became so popular is that he is allegedly the very last adept who actually made the Stone, and his books are very accessible and fairly easy to follow (at least compared to some of the older texts). Although he is not accurate in everything he says, a novice can still learn a lot of the basics from reading his books.