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elixirmixer
06-07-2016, 12:27 PM
Hey guys, so I was wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of some 'Gurr' literature, or any other great 'water world' literature?

All I've found so far is Robert Bartlett's prima, real alchemy... but modern stuff is just not as exciting to study. You don't get the "IM ON TO SOMETHING!! " Feeling you get when your deciphering a good old classic.

Any clues? Also, has anyone looked into this new trend, "water impellers"?? Like a whirlpool but inside out, suppose to 'energize' the water in some way. ..

elixirmixer
06-12-2016, 10:01 AM
What... water too boring for ya's!? Has anyone made gurr? I wonder if the brown substance made by zoas during the Nav saga was a type of gurr?

The Nav thing isn't over btw... just waiting for the right time...

What do people think of fractional distillation of water?

ghetto alchemist
06-12-2016, 01:55 PM
I don't even know what this "gurr" is...care to elaborate?

What do you mean by "fractional distillation of water"?
If you mean low pressure distillation, then I think it's one of the keys of alchemy.

Still waiting for your Nav2010 analysis........

elixirmixer
06-12-2016, 02:17 PM
Gurr... what is gurr... that is one tough question. Seed of life? Platform from which to grow the spine of DNA... maybe...

You have to wait for the sun to come out. Yet the Nav Mundi will not be released publicly. I saw how grateful people were the first time. Doesn't seem like the attitude has. Changed much there. Alchemy is a spiritual science. A divine gift. If you want her gifts, you need to live up to them.

Kiorionis
06-12-2016, 02:36 PM
There are a number of interesting posts scattered about the forums on water work, but it takes a little digging. Here's some I came up with:

Water (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3795-Water&highlight=Gur%2C+water)
Simply Water. . . Or is it that simple? (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2767-Simply-Water...or-is-it-that-simple&highlight=Gur%2C+water)
Water charged by Tibetan Singing Bowl (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3316-Water-charged-with-Tibetan-Singing-Bowl&highlight=Gur%2C+water)
Revitalizing Water with a Powerful Water Vortexer (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2729-Revitalizing-Water-with-a-Powerful-Water-Vortexer&highlight=Gur%2C+water)
An alternate magnetically treated water (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1350-an-alternate-magnetically-treated-water&highlight=Gur%2C+water)
Water - the First Material Principle (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2022-Water-The-First-Material-Principle&highlight=Gur%2C+water)

Not specifically about Gur, but enough to get started I think. I also left out quite a few interesting threads because I started to get bored of copying and pasting :)

Michael Sternbach
06-12-2016, 03:35 PM
A classic on "water alchemy" seems to be the Mute Book.

elixirmixer
06-12-2016, 04:08 PM
Thank you. Will look all these up in the morning. Robert Allen makes claims that gurr can develop new form's of life so I suppose that is the 'main' characteristics of it.

That's the only place I've seen it in literature. I have email conversations with his wife. I might try and ask her about it and are what her definition is.

Michael Sternbach
06-12-2016, 04:47 PM
Thank you. Will look all these up in the morning. Robert Allen makes claims that gurr can develop new form's of life so I suppose that is the 'main' characteristics of it.

That's the only place I've seen it in literature. I have email conversations with his wife. I might try and ask her about it and are what her definition is.

Good idea. Do let us know. Kirchweger's Aurea catena might also be worth looking into, BTW.

elixirmixer
06-15-2016, 10:32 PM
The wife of Robert Allen Bartlett's official 4 word answer (I wouldn't exactly say we're friends ) is......

The Universal Seed of Nature.

elixirmixer
06-15-2016, 10:38 PM
So there you go. That's what gurr is, and I dare say worth looking into. In his book 'A primer on practical alchemy' Bartlett describes the process and some of the pretty spectacular things you can do with this stuff. I personally believe that this gurr is the missing ingredient to what the life scientists have been trying to do for decades. Build a DNA signature from scratch. One day I'm going to try it out.

But for now, I used to own that book, but I lent it to a person who never returned it. So if anyone else has it could they post the procedure please so we can all give it a go?

Seth-Ra
06-16-2016, 02:26 AM
Gur to me is the manifested body/quintessence itself.
If starting with rain, dew, snow, whatever - a pure (universal or non-specific) material, you can grow a gur, it starts subtle and will adapt over time given the artist and conditions.

Or you can extract the quintessence/Spirit/Life out of matter and allow it grow a new body (gur), and by further working, make it more subtle and pure and essentially work it backwards/forwards to being universal again.

To work with the gur is work with Life manifested.
Whereas to work with a Philosophical Magnet, is to work with the rectified body to draw in the matching frequency of Spirit/Life.

Get a feel for both, and rectify and capture body and spirit, more rapidly and of higher quality.



~Seth-Ra

elixirmixer
06-16-2016, 07:04 AM
Gur to me is the manifested body/quintessence itself.

The Manifested body!? This is an interesting concept. Please share more!

You speak quite authoritivly on the subject. Please share where you have learnt this opinion concerning the "manifested body"

Seth-Ra
06-18-2016, 11:05 PM
The Manifested body!? This is an interesting concept. Please share more!

You speak quite authoritivly on the subject. Please share where you have learnt this opinion concerning the "manifested body"

The only "authority" I speak with, is my own experience in growing, extracting and working with such.
There isn't a lot more to share, except maybe pics... A decent amount of my work, theory and practice, has been shown on this forum. (Even if some images are gone due to broken links; the words are there and I retain all pics somewhere.)
I encourage to try it and see. :)



~Seth-Ra

Rebus7
06-20-2016, 04:31 AM
Seth-Ra is correct, and the word GUHR has both an alchemical and a more general meaning.

GENERAL MEANING:
Originally from the German and Sanskrit, it refers to:
A loose earthy deposit from water occurring in the cavities of rocks, being mostly white but sometimes red or yellow, and consisting of a varying mixture of clay or ocher.
Also, [by shortening] : Kieselguhr, which is diatomaceous earth; an organically derived form of silica.

And from an early encyclopedia: “The Guhr is a leaking or pappy mineral matter, which drips as stalagmite in caves. The most of mineralogists take it as the first matter and mumush of minerals. Maybe it is formed by decomposed minerals. At least Guhr is a sign of some metallic veins, furthermore the hardened and reddish one. When red it designates an iron vein, if green and blue a copper one, if white and blue a silver.”

ALCHEMICAL MEANING/S:
In the pattern of most obscure alchemical definitions, Guhr is used to refer to the Alchemical Subject at different stages of the Great Work. The common denominator is that the Guhr contains both Our Mercury & Sulphur, but is actually the Stone in various stages of maturity, and needs further work.

Firstly, as hinted from the General Meaning, Guhr can refer to the First Matter of Metals or Prima Materia as found in mines, but also to the white Nitre or Spiritus Mundi, when condensed from underground water as well as from dew and rain water with the appropriate catalyst at the equinox times of the year, particularly.

These sources may be termed Macrocosmic, whereas the Microcosmic or organic plant and animal sources need to first produce the Alkahest (Azoth or Universal Spirit), which contain the Guhr in hidden form (Mercury dominating), and will only manifest as a dark Earth (Sulphur dominating) when the Alkahest acts/ dissolves a common host matter such as a metal salt or even the Macrocosmic Prima Materia.

Rebus7

theFool
06-20-2016, 07:32 AM
The process to obtain the gur according to Bartlett is to place the rainwater ..

.. in a warm spot (30 to 40 degrees) to ferment for at least a month but longer is better. Some wait a year or even more. At the end of this time you should see white to brownish solid-like tufts of cotton floating in the water. This is the Universal Gur or Seed of Nature

His source is the book "Golden Chain of Homer".

If I remember well, after the fermentation, a kind of "sal-ammoniac" or "niter" is distilled out of water (called like this because it leaves needle crystals when the distillate is evaporated) and somehow combined with the gur later.

My understanding is that the gur is the sulfur and the distillate the mercury which should be combined.

Rebus7
06-20-2016, 08:24 AM
The Macrocosmic Guhr or White Sulphur can be obtained in 8 hours by rapid boiling of dew, rain water or underground water as the "Brothers of the Boiled Dew", the Rosicrucians, have said.

Rebus7

Michael Sternbach
06-20-2016, 11:19 AM
The only "authority" I speak with, is my own experience in growing, extracting and working with such.
There isn't a lot more to share, except maybe pics... A decent amount of my work, theory and practice, has been shown on this forum. (Even if some images are gone due to broken links; the words are there and I retain all pics somewhere.)
I encourage to try it and see. :)



~Seth-Ra

I would like to hear and see more about this. Thanks. :)

Michael Sternbach
06-20-2016, 11:23 AM
The process to obtain the gur according to Bartlett is to place the rainwater ..


His source is the book "Golden Chain of Homer".

If I remember well, after the fermentation, a kind of "sal-ammoniac" or "niter" is distilled out of water (called like this because it leaves needle crystals when the distillate is evaporated) and somehow combined with the gur later.

My understanding is that the gur is the sulfur and the distillate the mercury which should be combined.

The Golden Chain of Homer is identical with Kirchweger's Aurea Catena Homeri I mentioned before - another classic on working with celestial water, and one of Goethe's main sources on alchemy.

Michael Sternbach
06-20-2016, 11:25 AM
The Macrocosmic Guhr or White Sulphur can be obtained in 8 hours by rapid boiling of dew, rain water or underground water as the "Brothers of the Boiled Dew", the Rosicrucians, have said.

Rebus7

Where did they say this? Does anybody have experience with this? It would seem that all you would end up with is steam.

z0 K
06-20-2016, 02:48 PM
Gur is azotobacter the original first life on earth, a bacteria that can fix nitrogen from the air. It is the father and mother of all of us. Its spores float in the air. You can germinate its invisible spores in water. You can find it in unspoiled earth. It runs in strands of white chalky material. When placed into water it will soften and grow.

It is what you do with it that makes it alchemy.

Not much chance of Bartlett giving out any advice. His wife told me he was the alchemist not her when I questioned a chart she posted detailing the sequence of laboratory work for Hollandus plant stone. Of course no response from him.

Kiorionis
06-20-2016, 04:38 PM
I would like to hear and see more about this. Thanks. :)

In regards to Seth-Ra's many works, you can select the link to "Find All Threads Started" by him on his profile page (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/member.php?152-Seth-Ra).

elixirmixer
06-21-2016, 01:34 AM
Yes Bartlett is another snobby. Getting his wife to do all his dirty work. You would think that an alchemist as prestigious as Robert wouldn't have the need to charge $400 for 4mls of product. That's $100,000 per litre. Greedy much?

I appreciate everyone's contributions here. Deffinatly enough to get me started. Thankyou.

Rebus7
06-21-2016, 03:47 AM
Where did they say this? Does anybody have experience with this? It would seem that all you would end up with is steam.

We have good yields of the insoluble White Sulphur after 8 hours boiling down from distilled bore water, rain water and dew, but under the conditions that I mentioned earlier.

Rebus7

Rebus7
06-21-2016, 03:54 AM
Gur is azotobacter the original first life on earth, a bacteria that can fix nitrogen from the air. It is the father and mother of all of us. Its spores float in the air. You can germinate its invisible spores in water. You can find it in unspoiled earth. It runs in strands of white chalky material. When placed into water it will soften and grow.

It is what you do with it that makes it alchemy.



Not much chance of Bartlett giving out any advice. His wife told me he was the alchemist not her when I questioned a chart she posted detailing the sequence of laboratory work for Hollandus plant stone. Of course no response from him.

No way are the condensed White Nitre or Alchemical Guhrs derived from soil bacteria or fungi.....
The waters we use are first distilled but still are able to condense usable material salt volumes from the Spiritus Mundi.


Rebus7

Andro
06-21-2016, 05:25 AM
I dug up my almost 10 years old 'ormus' files and found this. I sadly don't remember who the author is, neither can I confirm the process(es). It can be interesting to juxtapose with what Uncle Rebus has shared with us and see what happens... The water should indeed be distilled, to get rid of whatever crap is already dissolved in it to start with :)

PS: I once accidentally forgot some Dew in a flask for a year or so, and all that formed was a fungus. It wasn't distilled or heated.

Here's the text:

Guhr

1. Take some water, from whatever source you prefer, though Dew water contains the most.

Rain Water is also quite good, even natural spring water shows a good amount, yet fairly much any good fresh water will do.

Place this water into a Pyrex Erlenmeyer flask and seal it with doping wax, so that it is air tight.

Bury the flask in sand that has a heater under it set to 37.5 Deg C. Sand is a good way of keeping the warmth surrounding the entire flask.

After 8 weeks, a brown substance will appear in the water. Alchemists call this "Guhr" and it is a product of fermentation of water.

Separate the brown sludge from the water and put into a Pyrex test tube so that the test tube is 1/3 full of brown sludge and 2/3 air.

Seal the test tube with doping wax and again bury it in your sand "incubator".

After 3 months, the brown sludge will go black and in 6 to 7 months, it goes white as snow.
__________________________________________________ ___________


2. When you putrefy dew/rain water, you get a brownish substance known to Alchemists as "Guhr". It will eventually go red after many months.

If you look at it closely or with a magnifying glass, it has a crystalline structure to it - quite unique.

You can speed up the process by maintaining heat at about 37Deg C and have the water in a sealed flask.

The flask should be air tight and be no more than 1/3 full to allow for expansion without blowing the flask apart or the lid off.

The water condenses on the upper part of the flask and trickles back down into the water, which maintains a constant cycle.

The "Guhr" will go red after about 90 days when doing it this way.

elixirmixer
06-21-2016, 05:52 AM
So we've heard some great ways to create Guhr. But what is it used for?

Rebus7
06-21-2016, 06:39 AM
So we've heard some great ways to create Guhr. But what is it used for?

Indeed, that is the right question.
If one has the true Prima Materia Guhr and not just a fermented fungal concentrate, then there will be a very insoluble white salt that ONLY a Universal Spirit/ Alkahest/ Azoth will condense/putrefy to a Crow (another level of Guhr). And that is a whole other story.

Rebus7

Andro
06-21-2016, 06:48 AM
Indeed, that is the right question.
If one has the true Prima Materia Guhr and not just a fermented fungal concentrate, then there will be a very insoluble white salt that ONLY a Universal Spirit/ Alkahest/ Azoth will condense/putrefy to a Crow (another level of Guhr). And that is a whole other story.

So in a way, it corresponds to the 'Philosophical Earth' (or to Cyliani's 'Androgynous Matter'?), to be imbibed with the 'Philosophical Heaven'.

theFool
06-21-2016, 10:00 AM
.. then there will be a very insoluble white salt that ONLY a Universal Spirit/ Alkahest/ Azoth will condense/putrefy to a Crow (another level of Guhr). And that is a whole other story.

Rebus7 I believe the same.
Do you think we could somehow ingest this guhr for medicinal purposes? It is insoluble in acids but it could be soluble in alcohol or essential oils (I correlate it with Hudson's ormes). May I ask, where does your information about the insolubility of this white salt comes from? Is it from some alchemical writing? It would be interesting for me to study that source.

Rebus7
06-21-2016, 11:32 AM
So in a way, it corresponds to the 'Philosophical Earth' (or to Cyliani's 'Androgynous Matter'?), to be imbibed with the 'Philosophical Heaven'.

YES

Rebus7
06-21-2016, 11:42 AM
I believe the same.
Do you think we could somehow ingest this guhr for medicinal purposes? It is insoluble in acids but it could be soluble in alcohol or essential oils (I correlate it with Hudson's ormes). May I ask, where does your information about the insolubility of this white salt comes from? Is it from some alchemical writing? It would be interesting for me to study that source.

This White Sulphur condensate seems totally inert, insoluble even in aqua regia, and only yields to a strong Alkahest, but then becomes a black Guhr, rather than dissolving. This information is our own experience. Hudson's true white ormes is likely the same, but a lot of phoney ormes exist for sale which can do nothing.

Rebus7

theFool
06-21-2016, 12:00 PM
Thank you for the detailed answer.

There is one more thing you can do with this guhr. One can put it in a porcelain crucible and heat it red hot with a torch. It will get darker. When it cools again, try to bring a magnet close to it, it will attract like iron. I have seen this phenomenon occuring in the brown variety of the rainwater guhr (but didn't check the solubilities back then).

Also, a similar brown precipitate can be obtained from sea salt (we have threads dedicated to this if someone is interested). I don't know if it is the same as the rainwater guhr. This sea salt "guhr", I have seen it to be insoluble in acids.

z0 K
06-21-2016, 05:32 PM
No way are the condensed White Nitre or Alchemical Guhrs derived from soil bacteria or fungi.....
The waters we use are first distilled but still are able to condense usable material salt volumes from the Spiritus Mundi.


Rebus7

You seem pretty convinced about what gur is not. Yet the “Alchemical Meaning” you posted says it, the meaning, is derived from a pattern of most obscure alchemical definitions. That leaves a lot to the imagination. But the common denominator, you say is Guhr contains both Our Mercury & Sulphur, but is actually the Stone in various stages of maturity, and needs further work.

The nitrogen fixing bacteria azotobacter when cultured most certainly contains both Our Mercury and Sulphur when put to the wheel of operations the Stone is produced. It also contains Spiritus Mundi. It is living Azoth in my opinion.

Several people have posted what they think the Gur is. If it is based on personal labwork I respect that. Otherwise it is speculation which is OK too. It is good to have photos or video of experiments for comparison of products obtained. Similarities may be seen between works with varying starting materials. You seem enthused about your work. It is good to discuss that and get feedback. I can appreciate that.

elixirmixer
06-22-2016, 02:31 AM
As soon as the word philosophical is thrown in front of something my brain shuts down. What might be the philosophers heaven? Special wee wee's? Ormus oil? Some crazy nitrate distillation's?

theFool
06-24-2016, 03:04 PM
Here it is, in the vase and some of it on a glass:

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/13/27/64/97/gur110.png

The water was rainwater.
It was filtered through coffee filter (unfortunatelly it allows small particles to pass).
The lid was not completley airtight but it was tight.
It took around two weeks to appear.
It seems insoluble in acids and alcohol.
After chemical reduction, it can dissolve (partially) in acid and gives positive tests for iron. Given also that it is magnetic, I interpreted it as some kind of iron oxide contamination back then.

Today, I would give to it one more chance. Share whatever properties you find it to have. I'm especially intrigued by what Rebus7 claims about it being able to distill over before the putrefaction.

Some parameters I would like to research:
Is rainwater necessary or water from a dehumidifier will do the same?
The lid on the vase must be airtight, breathing or it doesn't matter?

It is not really difficult to try out this experiment, one could use a yogurt machine that keeps temperature at 40 deg C.

theFool
06-28-2016, 07:48 AM
This quote comes from the book "Secret teachings of all ages" and speaks about the opinion of Baron von Welling about this salt (or "precipitation"):


"Take sweet clean water and seal it in a large bottle, leaving about one-fourth empty. Place the bottle in the sun for some weeks until it rots, showing a precipitation in the bottom. This precipitation, when properly manipulated by distillation, will produce a clear, fiery, burning oil, the constituents and use of which are only known to the wise."

I think the original writing can be found in von Welling's book "Philosophy of the Universe".

Kiorionis
06-28-2016, 05:16 PM
The water work I've been following is from John French's Art of Distillation (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/jfren_5.html):


There will first come forth a white fume which, being condensed, descends in a straight line to the bottom. Next will come over a red oil of great efficacy, exceeding the virtues of the spirit of salt or nitre. For confirmation of part of this process, take May dew gathered in the morning (when it has not rained the night before) and put it into a glass vessel, covered with a parchment pricked full of holes, and set it in the heat of the sun for the space of four months. There will store of green feces fall to the bottom, the residue of the water being white and clear.
http://i1071.photobucket.com/albums/u502/chorvidus/19cfaff1-2bf9-4de8-9b73-1924e10c2107_zps6hiaotem.jpg

The 'green feces' could easily be a species of algae, but after the evaporation of the water, the green part collected at the side of the jar and a white salt residue was left over which eventually turned reddish. The process, however, has taken me a couple years rather than four months (I've been moving through it quite slowly). I don't have enough of the salt to do anything else, at the moment.

Anyways, John French's essay on the 'Spagyrical Anatomy of Water' is a good read as well.

theFool
06-28-2016, 08:30 PM
The 'green feces' could easily be a species of algae...I've seen this green precipitate too sometime but discarded it as algae. This green precipitate is different from the brownish precipitate that forms after digestion. I don't know how to check if it is algae; maybe dissolve some of it in HCl acid, usually organic matter dissolves in it while the brownish precipitate does not.


Anyways, John French's essay on the 'Spagyrical Anatomy of Water' is a good read as well. Indeed, thanks for pointing to it.

theFool
06-29-2016, 04:21 PM
Here it is:

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/13/27/64/97/gur210.png

Very similar to your pic, but this is not the "guhr" in my opinion.

Kiorionis
06-30-2016, 12:04 AM
I agree, Mr. theFool, that it isn't the Gur -- but I do think the formation of the 'green precipitate' indicates a properly fermented rain/dew water.

Michael Sternbach
06-30-2016, 02:32 AM
The water work I've been following is from John French's Art of Distillation (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/jfren_5.html):


http://i1071.photobucket.com/albums/u502/chorvidus/19cfaff1-2bf9-4de8-9b73-1924e10c2107_zps6hiaotem.jpg

The 'green feces' could easily be a species of algae, but after the evaporation of the water, the green part collected at the side of the jar and a white salt residue was left over which eventually turned reddish. The process, however, has taken me a couple years rather than four months (I've been moving through it quite slowly). I don't have enough of the salt to do anything else, at the moment.

Anyways, John French's essay on the 'Spagyrical Anatomy of Water' is a good read as well.

Did you really use dew as French suggests?

Kiorionis
06-30-2016, 02:46 AM
I did, but with a fairly loose definition of 'dew'. It was most definitely "tiny drops of water that form on cool surfaces at night, when atmospheric vapor condenses."

But there are always other principles and conditions involved in particular works.

theFool
06-30-2016, 07:11 AM
but I do think the formation of the 'green precipitate' indicates a properly fermented rain/dew water. I guess that common tap water will not form this green precipitate but I am not sure since I have not tried similar experiment.

Seth-Ra
06-30-2016, 01:10 PM
When gathering dew, I recommend picking a night when the few fall is heavy enough to soak your hand if you touch the ground, and use a paper towel to gently pat the grass until the towel is soaked; wring it out into a glass jar/container and continue until you have sufficient. Take it and filter it well. The water should be a light golden color, smelling of fish. (Niter)



~Seth-Ra

JDP
06-30-2016, 07:52 PM
When gathering dew, I recommend picking a night when the few fall is heavy enough to soak your hand if you touch the ground, and use a paper towel to gently pat the grass until the towel is soaked; wring it out into a glass jar/container and continue until you have sufficient. Take it and filter it well. The water should be a light golden color, smelling of fish. (Niter)



~Seth-Ra

I think this manner of collecting dew is tantamount to "self-cheating". By soaking dew that is in contact with plant matter one can never know what salts it might have dissolved from the surface of the plants. The true method of collecting dew should be right above the ground, without the collecting medium (whether a clean cold object or an absorbing material like a clean towel) actually touching the plants. If there is anything to the claim that dew contains some special "salt" or whatever this should be the way of collecting it in order to test it.

From collecting lots of dew by means of clean bottles filled with ice and suspended above ground (with a clean collecting dish placed under the cold bottles to receive the condensed dew), so far I can't find any basis to the claim that there is something "special" here. Just a few impurities that always seem to accompany the dew, which is nothing else but ordinary and plain H2O. This water will never, ever, not in a million years, eventually coagulate itself by heating it at any degree, unlike the actual "water" of alchemy, which is the very "food" and "flesh & blood" of the Stone. Thus dew = a blind alley, a total dead end in alchemy. The relatively modern claims about dew having something to do with alchemy have their origin in too literal interpretations of some older alchemical texts, like the Turba Philosophorum, where this substance was already used among the "decknamen" for the "water" of alchemy.

Seth-Ra
07-01-2016, 02:06 AM
I think this manner of collecting dew is tantamount to "self-cheating". By soaking dew that is in contact with plant matter one can never know what salts it might have dissolved from the surface of the plants. The true method of collecting dew should be right above the ground, without the collecting medium (whether a clean cold object or an absorbing material like a clean towel) actually touching the plants. If there is anything to the claim that dew contains some special "salt" or whatever this should be the way of collecting it in order to test it.

From collecting lots of dew by means of clean bottles filled with ice and suspended above ground (with a clean collecting dish placed under the cold bottles to receive the condensed dew), so far I can't find any basis to the claim that there is something "special" here. Just a few impurities that always seem to accompany the dew, which is nothing else but ordinary and plain H2O. This water will never, ever, not in a million years, eventually coagulate itself by heating it at any degree, unlike the actual "water" of alchemy, which is the very "food" and "flesh & blood" of the Stone. Thus dew = a blind alley, a total dead end in alchemy. The relatively modern claims about dew having something to do with alchemy have their origin in too literal interpretations of some older alchemical texts, like the Turba Philosophorum, where this substance was already used among the "decknamen" for the "water" of alchemy.


Call it whatever you want. That isn't the only method I've used to catch dew, but every time it was done correctly it appeared the same; a yellow-golden liquid that smelled of fish (and the above stated is just my preferred method, it's easy and cheap to do, and gives you plenty of time in Nature with the material as you gather it).
It isn't JUST H2O from the atmosphere.
Nor did I say that it is THE water of Alchemy or that it would congeal into the stone. The topic is Gur, and it does produce a gur that can be congealed into a mineral form. (I've done it; it was reddish brown, could made thin and transparent red, or into a pebble that was more brownish red. The amount I worked with was to small and the product was easily lost in the chaotic and tiny space I was working in. But it's valuable in learning about the Life Essence itself and its manifesting, which is essential.)

JDP, if you don't believe me, then don't. Let your extensive knowledge of ancient texts and their "true/proper" meanings guide you right to the Truth.



~Seth-Ra

theFool
07-01-2016, 07:44 AM
If one cannot find natural dew, rainwater can be used too. It is possible that the "artificial" dew does not contain the "precursor of gur" in it, or contains it in much lesser degree than natural dew. So just use the rainwater.

Andro
07-01-2016, 10:54 AM
Thus dew = a blind alley, a total dead end in alchemy.

If one cannot find natural dew, rainwater can be used too. It is possible that the "artificial" dew does not contain the "precursor of gur" in it, or contains it in much lesser degree than natural dew. So just use the rainwater.

Here we are finally touching on one of the basic, fundamental differences between Chemistry and Alchemy.

There is no problem at all with employing the 'scientific method' with Alchemy. Many Alchemists do. However, as opposed to chemistry, in Alchemy we are searching for the 'occult' (hidden) ingredient, this elusive 'X-Factor' which is (in most cases) NOT physical (neither visible nor tangible, let alone assayable by chemistry). It needs to be RENDERED as such by the Alchemist.

There was an experiment (I don't recall the details, whoever is interested is welcome to look it up), where they made an exact chemical replica of rainwater. This artificial rainwater was found to be completely devoid of the growth and regenerative effects that natural rainwater has, even though the two 'waters' were chemically IDENTICAL. However, the artificial rainwater was lacking the 'occult' ingredient, the 'Blind Passenger' that needs to be either rendered tangible or at least significantly concentrated by the Alchemist in a suitable 'Carrier'.

All sorts of natural waters (Dew, Rainwater, Waters from Healing Springs, etc... Urine as well...) contain an 'invisible seed' (for lack of a better term) of this occult ingredient. This 'starter seed' is one which can attract more of itself, given the appropriate conditions AND energetic alignments. (Astrology, seasons, etc... this is well documented in the literature).

Quoth Robert Frost:


"And that has made all the difference."

Salazius
07-02-2016, 08:32 AM
It was Marciel VIOLET and Georges LAKHOVSKY for the experiments with water if I remember well. They are both good reads.

Michael Sternbach
07-02-2016, 04:21 PM
Here we are finally touching on one of the basic, fundamental differences between Chemistry and Alchemy.

There is no problem at all with employing the 'scientific method' with Alchemy. Many Alchemists do. However, as opposed to chemistry, in Alchemy we are searching for the 'occult' (hidden) ingredient, this elusive 'X-Factor' which is (in most cases) NOT physical (neither visible nor tangible, let alone assayable by chemistry). It needs to be RENDERED as such by the Alchemist.

There was an experiment (I don't recall the details, whoever is interested is welcome to look it up), where they made an exact chemical replica of rainwater. This artificial rainwater was found to be completely devoid of the growth and regenerative effects that natural rainwater has, even though the two 'waters' were chemically IDENTICAL. However, the artificial rainwater was lacking the 'occult' ingredient, the 'Blind Passenger' that needs to be either rendered tangible or at least significantly concentrated by the Alchemist in a suitable 'Carrier'.

All sorts of natural waters (Dew, Rainwater, Waters from Healing Springs, etc... Urine as well...) contain an 'invisible seed' (for lack of a better term) of this occult ingredient. This 'starter seed' is one which can attract more of itself, given the appropriate conditions AND energetic alignments. (Astrology, seasons, etc... this is well documented in the literature).

Quoth Robert Frost:

It has been shown that different water samples, although identical according to chemical analysis, can greatly vary in their effects due to the quasi-crystalline structures they contain. The latter are due to the water molecule's ability to form so-called H bonds. I once read somewhere that a certain kind of restructured water could be used as a nearly universal solvent, which seems very interesting from an alchemical perspective. While studies so far focussed on effects in biological systems, there is really no reason why there could be no differences in the chemical effects of various kinds of water too (biological effects must be partially chemical too, to be sure).

Axismundi000
07-02-2016, 05:04 PM
I would add a brief practical observation. I did about 4 litres and got a very small amount, not really enough to work with. Based on the quantity I obtained I think in terms of rainwater at least 40 litres is needed, perhaps if you use dew the amount of initial water needed would be less.

Ghislain
07-03-2016, 01:15 AM
I used an open freezer at night and then collected the ice from the freezer. I don't see why this would not be the same a dew.

It didn't produce anything.

But then I did use it to try the DSS experiment, not to produce Gur.

Ghislain

theFool
07-06-2016, 09:14 AM
After cohobating 4 times the putrefied rainwater on the gur this golden colored solution was acquired:

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/13/27/64/97/gur410.png

Unfortunately the residue was burned at the fifth time.
This golden solution has an acidic taste, like vinegar. Its pH is measured around 2.0

Axismundi000
07-06-2016, 10:01 AM
May I ask the quantity of rainwater you started with? I did some with 4 litres and didn't get as much as you have. I'm thinking of trying next spring using say 8 litres but Dubuis recommends 40 litres.

theFool
07-06-2016, 11:33 AM
May I ask the quantity of rainwater you started with? Sure, it was about 1/3 of a litre rainwater. It was collected from a thunderstorm.
Even if the gur you see is a small quantity, do the experiment. During the process, it gave the impression that it grows/swells somehow. In the end it became black (from brown).

Axismundi000
07-06-2016, 12:04 PM
I am thinking the thunderstorm was the extra special thing here. Sheet lightning storms can occur in the spring were I live so I shal be mindful of this, many thanks.

Seth-Ra
07-07-2016, 12:02 PM
Thunderstorms are preferable due to the Lightning - it's sort of like capturing the "spark of life" within the water.
Dew is still more preferable, as it possesses more of this "Spark" - it's literally like a tangible spirit within the air.
But good quantities of good quality rain water (with lots of lightning) is good to work with.

To give a comparison from the animal kingdom (not to derail, but just to make the cross-over point); it is said 1 drop of human seed is worth 10 drops of blood. In the water works, it would be 1 of dew is worth 10 of rain.



~Seth-Ra

theFool
07-07-2016, 06:13 PM
Here is the gur that turned to black (left) and the golden liquor above it (right):

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/13/27/64/97/gur510.png

Upon heating in a porcelain crucible it evaporates completely leaving neither residue nor any kind of smoke. At the beginning, it would behave magnetically and would not evaporate ... hm, were the vessels changed mistakenly somehow during the process, lol :confused:

According to literature, a white smoke should have been seen during the cohobations and they should have passed over the helm but probably the spirit was mistreated and left the inexperienced operator alone :)

Axismundi000
07-07-2016, 09:15 PM
Thanks for the info. So if I get 4 litres of dew it will be like 40 litres of rainwater. Also rain during a thunderstorm will be better the standard rainwater this is usefull.

theFool
07-16-2016, 10:32 AM
The black gur can be extracted easily

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/13/27/64/97/gur610.png

zoas23
01-12-2017, 05:22 AM
PS: I once accidentally forgot some Dew in a flask for a year or so, and all that formed was a fungus. It wasn't distilled or heated.

Here's the text:

Guhr

1. Take some water, from whatever source you prefer, though Dew water contains the most.

Rain Water is also quite good, even natural spring water shows a good amount, yet fairly much any good fresh water will do.

Place this water into a Pyrex Erlenmeyer flask and seal it with doping wax, so that it is air tight.

Bury the flask in sand that has a heater under it set to 37.5 Deg C. Sand is a good way of keeping the warmth surrounding the entire flask.

After 8 weeks, a brown substance will appear in the water. Alchemists call this "Guhr" and it is a product of fermentation of water.

Separate the brown sludge from the water and put into a Pyrex test tube so that the test tube is 1/3 full of brown sludge and 2/3 air.

Seal the test tube with doping wax and again bury it in your sand "incubator".

After 3 months, the brown sludge will go black and in 6 to 7 months, it goes white as snow.
__________________________________________________ ___________


2. When you putrefy dew/rain water, you get a brownish substance known to Alchemists as "Guhr". It will eventually go red after many months.

If you look at it closely or with a magnifying glass, it has a crystalline structure to it - quite unique.

You can speed up the process by maintaining heat at about 37Deg C and have the water in a sealed flask.

The flask should be air tight and be no more than 1/3 full to allow for expansion without blowing the flask apart or the lid off.

The water condenses on the upper part of the flask and trickles back down into the water, which maintains a constant cycle.

The "Guhr" will go red after about 90 days when doing it this way.


Being myself a rainwater storer, I got Guhr is my old bottles naturally (naturally = I simply stored the rain for 5 to 7 years).

I am writing because I have the brown Guhr is most of them... BUT one of them did something completely different: it created WHITE crystals that create squares and the water is a bit less transparent which makes me BELIEVE that it is a saturated solution full of these white and square-shaped salts. I will try to get a good pic and post it here. It is a 5 liters flask... and I do not know why the reaction has been so different.

I am thinking about what to do with it, though I thought of separating the salts by distillation and then put them in my incubator. I will try to take a GOOD pic and post a photo:

Here's the photo in original size: https://s23.postimg.org/mfw2cyzgr/15992016_10211961296935571_1971209739_o.jpg

Here's a reduced size for the forum:
https://s27.postimg.org/xpwi8dwr7/15992016_10211961296935571_1971209739_o.jpg

(I am posting the one with reduced size and a link to the full size one)

There are some salts floating on the surface and some crystals in the water too (similar to the water of a typical lixiviation once some of it has been evaporated and you begin to see the crystals dancing in the water).

It is a 5 liters flask and the photo isn't amazing (cell phone camera)... the crystals floating on the surface are 0.5 cm "cubes" (I think this is hard to see in the photo)... and some crystals with a smaller size can be seen in the water, but without floating. It looks like a saturated solution to me.

My surprise is that the BROWN Guhr, I've seen it happening "naturally"... but this doesn't look like ANY of the other ones I've seen (I suspect WHY something different may have happened... the cork of this flask is less dense and it allows the water to "breathe"... I shaked the flask and my hands got wet, I mean that some water escaped through the cork... I would say it's a "bad quality" cork, but it gave a different result... the putrefaction has been semi-aerobic).