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Awani
06-14-2016, 08:23 PM
In this section everything to do with Shamanism is to be discussed.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/52ede3ede4b08d6717e3faee/t/54bf0c35e4b042c4bf4d56f8/1421806646753/sweet+dreams?format=1000w

Shamanism, and this forum section, cover a wide array of topics such as:


Sacred Plant Medicines: Ayahuasca, Iboga, Shrooms, DMT, Cannabis and more. Generally I prefer to use the word psychedelics over entheogens. More on this here (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2780-Entheogens-or-Psychedelics).
Herbal Medicines
Indigenous Cultures & Practices
Out-Of-Body Experiences
Healing of the self and of others
Altered States of Consciousness
Reports on shamanic journeys
Shamanic techniques: drumming, dancing, singing, sweating etc.

We are also aware that the term "shaman" might not be a suitable label to many of the "healers" of indigenous cultures where they view it as a "white mans word"... but for sake of simplicity it is used here.

:cool:

Quarrox
03-15-2017, 08:57 PM
Although not with a shamanic background or from a shamanic culture ("white man"), i am interested in the topic.

The "civilised" world often looks down on the indigenous people and pride themselves to be advanced, while the tribes are primitive. This could not be further from the truth imo.

Examples:

-The "first world" produces expensive and synthetic drugs and medicaments, basing often on plants. The tribes use these plants since 1000s of years in a holistic manner, as they not only recognize the materialistic/chemical aspects, but also the spiritual aspects of every plant and of the plant kingdom in general.

-The tribes aim for a cure of a illness, while the western pharma industry and its stooges, the doctors, aim for symptom control.

-The tribes do not maintain prisons. The crime rate is low, they punish deliquents differently.

-They apreciate and even worship nature, because they posess a deeper understanding of mother earth. The civilised world still thinks that money is edible.

-They honor and respect the elders.

-Many of the tribe members posess a profound understanding of spirituality and the existence of other worlds. The majority of the west is still trapped in materialistic thinking and behaving.

-Etc.

Of course, every coin has it's two sides and certainly their civilisations are not free of negative aspects. But there are some remarkable differences and aspects that are worth considering, when looking at shamanism ("clergy") and indigenous societies (people).

Side note and off topic: I once asked the shaman how they (especifically his tribe) see or interpret what we call God/divine force/all etc. His answer was very cryptic and i could not really interpret it. I did not understand and hesitated to ask again. I should ask again, and: listen.

Awani
03-15-2017, 10:32 PM
The majority of the west is still trapped in materialistic thinking and behaving.

See this (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4782-People-of-the-Ucayali) thread regarding what one tribe does to the material wealth when its owner dies.

:cool:

Awani
08-04-2017, 10:49 PM
Alchemy = Neo-Shamanism

https://drjoetafur.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Joe-Tafur-Front-Book-Cover.jpg

Doubt it all you want (and I know some of you do)... and even though this cover is contemporary, it is still a perfect symbol for this outlook (that I might be alone in having).

Only the truly sane appear insane. ;)

:p

Schmuldvich
08-05-2017, 08:58 PM
Alchemy = Neo-Shamanism

Doubt it all you want (and I know some of you do)... and even though this cover is contemporary, it is still a perfect symbol for this outlook (that I might be alone in having).
Have you had a chance to read through the whole book yet? Would you recommend it?

Awani
08-05-2017, 09:07 PM
I have not read a word of it, simply posted it because the cover says in visual language what I strongly feel: that shamanism is the original alchemy, in the same way that alchemy is the original chemistry. Go to the source.

I do own the book.

:p

Schmuldvich
08-05-2017, 09:13 PM
I have not read a word of it, simply posted it because the cover says in visual language what I strongly feel: that shamanism is the original alchemy.
It is neat to hear you share you perspective, that the cover says in visual language that shamanism is the original alchemy. I do not feel the same or see the cover visually saying the same thing as you (different perspective obviously). Can you share how the cover visually makes you come to the conclusion that shamanism is the original Alchemy? I am interested to hear your thoughts!

Visceral
08-06-2017, 12:25 AM
Shamanism is the original mother of all traditions. Alchemy is based on earlier practices, this is very clear in the historical record and obvious to anyone who dabbles in alchemy and entheogens/psychedelics.

All the Mystery schools and ancient Egyptian cults had as their final revelation a DEEP state of psychedelic ecstasy and communion with the Logos, this too is a matter of record. Plato has at least one very obvious and vivid trip recollection, I believe most of the ancient philosophers have a similar story they cover as glimpses of heaven, which no true psychonaut would possibly deny is the impression of the deep psychedelic state.

Awani
08-14-2017, 09:42 PM
It is neat to hear you share you perspective, that the cover says in visual language that shamanism is the original alchemy. I do not feel the same or see the cover visually saying the same thing as you (different perspective obviously). Can you share how the cover visually makes you come to the conclusion that shamanism is the original Alchemy? I am interested to hear your thoughts!

I did not see your reply. But let me quote you from another thread as well, because my reply is connected with those words of yours as well.


Why is this such commonthought of this message board!? There is no Truth to this at all. There are not "many forms" of Alchemy...at all. Alchemy was, is, and will forever remain the same.

From my perspective, in terms of spiritual development, those that KNEW the most were pre-society cultures and current indigenous cultures. The majority of quotes, and the majority of alchemical texts, are from somewhere between 1000 up to 1700. And mainly European. Basically late Middle Ages up to the Renaissance. It is highly probable that alchemy in some way or form inspired the rise of the Renaissance and thus ushering in the modern era. Eventually. No smoke without fire.

However the earliest form of alchemy arose in the time of Hellenistic Egypt, some of the earliest alchemists were Gnostics (if not all). And a lot of them were "mythological". So whatever those "Dark Ages" alchemists did, they certainly re-interpreted their source material into physical ideas. It is true that those earliest alchemists did dabble with chemistry, but they were - as I mentioned - Gnostic. So in the same way that perhaps Carl Jung re-interpreted alchemy in the Modern Era, so did the alchemists in the Middle Ages... when it became a fad. Although worth to note there is an account of Paracelsus spending time with the "shamanic" tartars. Wink wink.

I would not place too much spiritual value on anything that comes from the foundation of modern society, because there is a tendency to place matter at the centre of attention. Indigenous cultures, and Gnosticism does NOT... and it is from these sources that alchemy came from.

Now anyone can decide that those earlier alchemists were morons, and that the REAL alchemy began in the Middle Ages. If so, then yes alchemy has nothing to do with anything but lead and gold.

To simply IGNORE the early alchemists Gnostic foundation, would be to ignore something that they themselves most likely viewed as highly important. I have studied Gnosticism for much longer than I have had any interest in alchemy... and the core essential idea - in my opinion - that Gnosticism is about, is the concept that within us all lies a Divine Light trapped by a false God that is incarnated as reality. Only through gnosis can this Light be liberated.

The ONE is very important in Gnosticism. Also called Monad. The Stone. ;)

For me it is clear that Alchemy arose from a foundation that was without a doubt Gnosticism itself (even if they did not call it that, humans name things after they have happened).

Who was the main man in Gnosticism on this Earth? Jesus of course. In what way does Jesus figure in Gnosticism? As a Shaman of course.

I am certain there is a value for people to dabble with physical transmutations, but to disregard the pretty obvious connection with Gnosticism (which is a modern form of Shamanism, when you compare indigenous cosmology with Gnosticism, and when you compare indigenous cultures shamanic practices with Gnostic practices).


I am interested to hear your thoughts!

The cover of that book shows the famous Caduceus. What does the Caduceus look like as a symbol:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Mercury_symbol.svg/360px-Mercury_symbol.svg.png

What is the most common animal that one encounters when drinking Ayahuasca? Snakes or Anacondas. What is the most common Spirit Animal in the cultures that use Peyote? The Hawk/Eagle. And on that cover you also see the famous Shipibo pattern that is basically the wallpaper of the Ayahuasca experience. So for me the cover is a wonderful symbol of Shamanism and Alchemy as one. But it is not scholarly accurate in the sense that there are a lot of accounts of other animals and aspects of Shamanism. It was just a perfect symbol for me, based on my experiences.


Shamanism is the original mother of all traditions. Alchemy is based on earlier practices, this is very clear in the historical record and obvious to anyone who dabbles in alchemy and entheogens/psychedelics.

Yes, one would think so.

:p

Schmuldvich
08-15-2017, 10:45 PM
All I see in the picture is upside down beakers, dicks, electrical plugs, symmetrical trophies, and someone slapping M.D. on the front of a cover of a book in order to make it appear reputable :o

...J/k




The majority of quotes, and the majority of alchemical texts, are from somewhere between 1000 up to 1700. And mainly European. Basically late Middle Ages up to the Renaissance.
The majority of quotes, yes, but the majority of Alchemy texts I believe were far, far greater and older than we have today before the burning of the Library of Alexandria and the hoarding of Alchemy literature by those in power.


It is highly probable that alchemy in some way or form inspired the rise of the Renaissance and thus ushering in the modern era. Eventually. No smoke without fire.
I cannot agree with this at all, with what little I do know of the Renaissance.


However the earliest form of alchemy arose in the time of Hellenistic Egypt
No!!! Alchemy has been truckin' along way before Hellenistic Egypt.


some of the earliest alchemists were Gnostics (if not all). And a lot of them were "mythological".
Yes!!! The Gnostic writings are full of Alchemical Truth! I love the thread we have going on about this, "Alchemy in Magical Grimoires" (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4332-Alchemy-in-Magical-Grimoires).

It is neat to compare "mythology" with Alchemy...





Earth - Adam Hadamah, our Clay
http://i.imgur.com/tD5mbUq.jpg
Hyle


Saturn - our Putrefaction
http://i.imgur.com/pk49ptn.jpg
Lead, Chronus (Ninurta)


Jupiter - our Ashes
http://i.imgur.com/OpcnoIL.jpg
Tin, Zeus (Marduk)


Moon- our Foliated Earth
http://i.imgur.com/CKvU0Ie.jpg
Silver, Artemis (Sin)


Venus - our Vitriol
http://i.imgur.com/ndfc0pY.jpg
Copper, Aphrodite (Ishtar)


Mars - our Saffron
http://i.imgur.com/GCsDmQE.jpg
Iron, Ares (Nergal)


Sun - our Universal Medicine
http://i.imgur.com/zcdJvFf.jpg
Gold, Apollo (Shamash)




So whatever those "Dark Ages" alchemists did, they certainly re-interpreted their source material into physical ideas. It is true that those earliest alchemists did dabble with chemistry, but they were - as I mentioned - Gnostic. So in the same way that perhaps Carl Jung re-interpreted alchemy in the Modern Era, so did the alchemists in the Middle Ages... when it became a fad. Although worth to note there is an account of Paracelsus spending time with the "shamanic" tartars. Wink wink.
Plenty of pseudo-alchemists re-interpreted Alchemy in the Middle Ages (and today!), yes, but real Alchemists did not re-interpret anything; they comprehended the words of the Sages and then put into practice what they learned. Just like a couple of us are doing.



...the core essential idea - in my opinion - that Gnosticism is about, is the concept that within us all lies a Divine Light trapped by a false God that is incarnated as reality. Only through gnosis can this Light be liberated.

The ONE is very important in Gnosticism. Also called Monad. The Stone. ;)
PREACH!!!



For me it is clear that Alchemy arose from a foundation that was without a doubt Gnosticism itself (even if they did not call it that, humans name things after they have happened).
Or vice versa...but really it doesn't matter. Like you put it earlier, humans naming things and putting things into words is not always possible and most of the time detracts from the Truth.



The cover of that book shows the famous Caduceus. What does the Caduceus look like as a symbol:

What is the most common animal that one encounters when drinking Ayahuasca? Snakes or Anacondas. What is the most common Spirit Animal in the cultures that use Peyote? The Hawk/Eagle. And on that cover you also see the famous Shipibo pattern that is basically the wallpaper of the Ayahuasca experience. So for me the cover is a wonderful symbol of Shamanism and Alchemy as one. But it is not scholarly accurate in the sense that there are a lot of accounts of other animals and aspects of Shamanism. It was just a perfect symbol for me, based on my experiences.
Amazing interpretation! Thank you for sharing.

I see very much the same thing as you and think it is worth noting that everything in the image is "connected".

zoas23
08-15-2017, 11:19 PM
I have not read a word of it, simply posted it because the cover says in visual language what I strongly feel: that shamanism is the original alchemy, in the same way that alchemy is the original chemistry. Go to the source. I do own the book.

Impossible to disagree with the statement, though other things got into the mix too (on the path from Shamanism to Alchemy).
The cover of the book is surprising, though in a strange way... To see the two snakes forming a helix is easy in that cover and the caduceus is almost there (the stick in the middle is suggested only, but that's fine).
But I say it is surprising because even if the Serpent was (is) important in several traditions of the Americas... I doubt you will find this specific arrangement in ANY pre-colonial American tradition (It looks Sumerian, it was also used by the Greeks, there's also Far East examples... but I don't really know any pre-colonial American example).

I was going to blame the publisher, because I don't think you'll find this design in any Amazon tradition... so I went to amazon.com :rolleyes: (the other Amazon!)... and it is self-published.

It can be an "artistic license", but if I am not wrong, there isn't any American (non colonial) tradition that actually uses that symbol.

Other than that, I do not disagree with the point though (that Shamanism came before alchemy and alchemy can be considered as an offspring of Shamanism, that's true).

Awani
08-16-2017, 07:00 AM
It can be an "artistic license".

Yes, it is contemporary. It speaks to me. No historical foundation.

:p

Awani
08-16-2017, 07:02 AM
Thanks for the replies Schmuldvich.


I cannot agree with this at all, with what little I do know of the Renaissance.

Well, not sure I agree myself. But one thing always leads to another.

:p

Awani
08-02-2018, 10:13 PM
Doing the podcast I get a lot of requests from shamans that want to appear on the podcast. In the future I might avoid this fully... because I cannot take someone serious that calls themselves a shaman. In a sense it is a semantic issue.

Neoshaman: individuals trained in shamanism from sources that were not indigenous.

It does not mean a neoshaman is worse than a shaman, it simply means that they are not trained for generations in a certain knowledge and mapping of worlds (this one and others)... you need maps to get around. And if you live for generations self-sustained in harmony with nature, you will always have a very different foundation than someone that grew up in the city.

Shaman: technically a white mans word that describe a certain type of individual... the word comes from the indigenous peoples of Siberia although has been used to describe ALL "shamans".

I have spent time with 7 different indigenous cultures so far across the globe, and in their own individual culture they use another term for shaman... this word can usually be translated as "healer"... although because of the power of western influence they also use, these days, the term shaman...

Medicine Man: if we want a western word for the "shaman" then I think "medicine man" is way more accurate... although half the "shamans" I've met, and by now I have met a few, have been women...

---------------------------------------------

Excellent article: The Role of Fear in Traditional and Contemporary Shamanism (https://web.archive.org/web/20120120013711/http://www.ull.es/congresos/conmirel/YORK.html) by Michael York

Some important quotes below:


...to apply the term `shamanism’ to medicine-people and witch-doctor practices belonging to ethnic identities further afield, such as among African tribalists or indigenious Indians in both North and South America, is an Euro-centric misnomer which carries an artificiality akin to the British colonial labelling of the diverse dharma practices of India under the single rubric of `Hinduism’...

Although for sake of simplicity the author employs the term shamanism... and refers to neo-shamanism as "new age".


The contrast between New Age shamanism and pagan shamanism in a modern Western context revolves around the role of fear. In traditional shamanism, the shaman’s initiation is an ordeal involving pain, hardship and terror. In its classic version, the shaman experiences death, often dis-membership or skeletalisation, before undergoing reconstitution and rebirth. New Age, by contrast is a religious perspective that denies the ultimately reality of the negative, and this would devalue the role of fear as well. But in seeking to dismiss the fearsome, New Age also has the propensity to eliminate a central feature of religion qua religion, namely, the experience of awe. The encounter with the mysterium tremendum et fascinans engenders a mixed emotion of fear, reverence and wonder. If, however, all becomes `sweetness and light’ through a New Age agenda, there is no dread. But without the experience of fear, there can then be no real experience of the awesome. New Age shamanism would then seem to constitute an incomplete form of shamanism – one which does not include the central feature of shamanic initiation, and one which also does not include a central feature of religion.

This above passage is very lucid and in simple terms explains what I have been trying to get across when discussing this topic.

As I see it, a "shamanic" experience will contain the following:

- pain
- hardship
- terror
- death
- rebirth
- fear
- and most important AWE

"...without the experience of fear, there can then be no real experience of the awesome..."

Next time I talk to a Gringo Shaman I will ask if he/she can supply all in the above list in a single evening. If not, then it can still be a valid and healing experience... but I would not class it as a "shamanic experience".

:p

Esche
08-02-2018, 10:40 PM
A primitive form of alchemy can be verified in celtic world in it Ogham systems. In the "Auraicept N'aces" the scholars primer of celtic language shows
a primitive path to obtain silver and red gold from white gold, the Huath lettter (Howthorn) is credited to transform pale silver in true silver, through an
amalgam with gold making it a white gold, then bath it amalgam with urine the metal turns into red gold.

The Huath letter (H), the howthorn and it powers perhaps is associated with Morrigham godess.