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View Full Version : I may have found (my) universal truth, please prove me wrong!



JinRaTensei
06-20-2016, 12:05 AM
Plz change the sound of the voice with which you think for a long time or without actively focussing on doing so

I have studied many papers, made research in various fields and have spent even more thoughts but no matter what I came across I never could be 100% certain that my view of things was correct.
But I am certain I can not change the sound of my voice with which I think.

What is ego, what is soul, what is mind, what are you?
I do not know any of that for certain
But I know for certain I can not change the sound of the voice with which I think.
Something so obvious, used so much more than breaths I have taken in this life and yet never once truly considered

This is the first absolute truth I personally came across.

So I can "judge" everything regarding or building up on that with complete new thought models, world views and experiencing of self.

The more I try to change the sound of my voice the more I am aware of the me which is trying to break this truth into pieces. I realise so much more clearly what is mind. How many layers "I" truly am and have....and I not only know but can let go of it all much easier or be fully aware in ego like I could never before. To me it is quite beautiful ^^

I do not know how this will be for you if you consider making your own opinion of this, neither do I know what material or which person would specifically relate to this.

But I do know that it does not matter to me since I had to find this out for myself appearantly and thus can accept it more than any outside source could make me.

Awani
06-20-2016, 11:22 AM
Another good topic to consider. Thanks.

You cannot change your thinking voice? Which one do you mean? Is it the one that you are thinking with or the higher more silent voice that is so easily ignored, the one that already knows everything that needs to be known?

If you mean the former it CAN be changed. At least it did for me. But if you mean the latter. No it cannot change, but what can happen is you start HEARING it and that changes everything. ;)

:cool:

JinRaTensei
06-20-2016, 12:46 PM
You cannot change your thinking voice? Which one do you mean?

I mean the only one of them which you can "hear" the sound of in your mind, the one which seems to us to be a representation of your "real voice"
so actually I really ment the former which according to you, and no reason to disbelief, can change.
I also can "change" this voice but only when I actively and consciously do so, the only other change the sound of this voice has undergone I would guess was in puberty when my "real" voice changed significantly for the last time. And I assume the sound of this voice wil further progress with old age when your "real" voice undergoes significant changes for the last time naturally.

I make the hypothesis at this point that the sound of this voice is something which is very closely tied to our persona,mind and ego and maybe for that voice to change pemanently it must also mean a complete change of your persona,ego.

Intuitively I get the sense that the way to change this voice is also one of the clearest and directest ways to your true self. So what methods do you suggest can do such a change? My guess would be everthing which can change/dissolve a persona like trauma, personality disorders, amnesia, hypnosis,etc.

I am curious dev to hear your thoughts I think (speaking for myself) this will lead me to the last piece of the puzzle I need...since tonight with the full moon a certain cycle also will end for me and a new will begin. ^^

As for the later, more subtle voice you mention, the voice of your "higher self" or one of many "higher selfs" that voice for me is soundless in my mind which is why I never had a problem separating them from each other because only with one of them I could think silently.

Awani
06-20-2016, 01:31 PM
You mean you physically hear it? When you say change the sound of it you mean "how it sounds"... not what it actually says?

:cool:

JinRaTensei
06-20-2016, 01:52 PM
No, sorry if I was unclear in what I meant to express. I mean "hear" in the mind. The only time when I refer to the actual physical voice and actual hearing I used "real voice" as an addressor. I hope this can clear things up a little more.

Thinking more and more about this I have come to another, for me, interesting hypothesis.

What if they way to self awareness is as simple as fully realizing and hearing your own voice?

If the voice in the mind is as I assume tightly and maybe unbreakably bound to the persona of the self each of us is currently experiencing and this voice in the mind is a representation of how we assume our voice sounds like, then what will happen if you record your voice and not just listen to it but truly hear it.

I assume if you truly become aware of the sound of your own voice maybe the sound in your mind will change. And if the sound in your mind is as tightly linked to your persona or false self which most of us so tightly experience every aware moment of our lives, then that would mean that becoming truly aware of the physical sound of your voice will also give you the key to leave that persona or dive deeper into it or advance it in any way you please.

Just a current hypothesis. I have to make the practical observations.

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Awani
06-20-2016, 01:57 PM
Then I can't say anything more. I have never heard my voice in the mind nor with the ears. This is confusing. LOL!

If you mean your thoughts then they are transmitted directly. You mean a subconscious voice?

You basically mean then that you won't change your mind if I know for certain I can not change the sound of the voice with which I think?

Sorry, hard to follow what you mean. Maybe I need to take a break and re-read everything you wrote.

:cool:

JinRaTensei
06-20-2016, 03:05 PM
Then I can't say anything more. I have never heard my voice in the mind nor with the ears.

Sorry again for coming across unclear. I do not mean any physical sound but simply how the voice in your mind with which you read these lines "sounds" like. Your inside voice which "sounds" like you personally assume your real voice sounds like

Awani
06-20-2016, 03:12 PM
Well if I get you then I do not know. I have never assumed anything about those things. I don't have a sound in the mind.

I don't even know what language I am thinking in.

:cool:

JinRaTensei
06-20-2016, 03:56 PM
I don't even know what language I am thinking in.

Lol XD but I think I get you, I know of some people who think in images, some think in sounds and some do not really think but rather intuitively "feel" thought processes.

But about what I mean it does not matter, imo how your mind/thinking works because you know this language. If you read this right now and the words turn up in your mind do they not "sound" like something in your mind.

I mean in order to comprehend the words do you not have to recognize them somehow in your mind.Do you not somehow "speak out" those words in your mind when you read anything or think anythink just with the mind.

If nothing of the above makes any sense to you and you truly have no "sound" or certain charateristic of inner voice than I am the more curious what your inner voice expresses itself for you personally.

PS: It would be good if others at some point wish to share their views on this maybe somebody will be able through his words and experiences to shine further clarity on this "inner voice sound" through comparison

Awani
06-20-2016, 04:46 PM
I see. Well personally, unless it is a new word, I read meaning not words that need to translate into meaning. I "see" what I read instantly. But if it is a complicated thing like understanding what you meant in this thread I think about it. But we must be different in this process. There is are no words in my thinking only thought free of words.

But I love words so of course I think about words, but not when it concerns thinking about things.

Also like to hear other peoples thoughts. This is a can of worms.

Ah wait. Sometimes I talk to myself in my mind. Yes that is true. Usually in English. But it is more debating with myself. Things that eventually will become for example a post in this forum. But I don't hear a voice. And if I do I have never considered its sound.

:cool:

JinRaTensei
06-20-2016, 08:05 PM
Also like to hear other peoples thoughts. This is a can of worms.

Ah wait. Sometimes I talk to myself in my mind. Yes that is true. Usually in English. But it is more debating with myself. Things that eventually will become for example a post in this forum. But I don't hear a voice. And if I do I have never considered its sound.

Thx dev how very interesting but before I can continue to make a clear picture for myself I would need to do know "who between us two is the crazy one" XD
is it "normal" to "hear" the "sound" of your thoughts or not. ^^

zoas23
06-20-2016, 08:56 PM
Well if I get you then I do not know. I have never assumed anything about those things. I don't have a sound in the mind.
I don't even know what language I am thinking in.

I liked this idea. Same for me, JinRa... my "inner voice" is not expressed as a voice at all, not even as a language such as Spanish, English or whatever. Quite often it is images, numbers, abstract concepts, ideas, etc.

As for what you were writing, JinRa.... most WESTERN mystical systems work with the idea of a Daimon / Genius / Holy Guardian Angel / Etc... and there's several texts about the "conversation with the Genius"...

The idea of the "Genius" is simply an agent that is placed between the daily Ego and the "uncreated One"... like a "translator" or a "receiver".

In most WESTERN mystical systems a person begins to work with a *fake* Genius or an artificial one that has the only aim of being like a "placebo" of the REAL one and is used to arrive to the REAL one (in several traditions the "placebo" is given with a name and sometimes a seal... but after some time the person -you- has to change it for the "real" one.

A big big "trap" is to assume that this "conversation" is through language and there's this fantasy of "talking" to the Genius as if he was a friend with whom you talk... I'd say that it's a romantic way of saying it, but that it doesn't work that way in most cases... that the "revelations" are in most cases an amazing idea you suddenly have... or suddenly being able to decipher a "mystery" that you didn't understand before, etc... and not really a "conversation" in its literal meaning.

JinRaTensei
06-21-2016, 07:39 AM
Thanks zoas23 for your own experiences...and for making me "the crazy one" XD.

I was so sure that this is how it is for everyone that I did not even consider it being otherwise. And sure I also knew/assumed that different people have different ways of thinking,introspection and in general different kinds of "inner voices" but I thought the "primary Mind" as I call it would be nearly the same for most.


I liked this idea. Same for me, JinRa... my "inner voice" is not expressed as a voice at all, not even as a language such as Spanish, English or whatever. Quite often it is images, numbers, abstract concepts, ideas, etc.



It is likewise for me with what I call "secondary Mind" only that I never had the luxus/joy of thinking in images,numbers or really anything which is also why I would make an lousy artist...well that and the fact that I can not draw or sculpted XD. My "secondary Mind" does not think at all. It seems to be some kind of intuition.
I can not see or feel anything I just somehow know. And because I do not know why I know I have to use my "first Mind" or voice to introspect and find out why I know what I know. Which is why I viewed my "primary mind" as the logical one without any own input or inspiration always living in the past because working in retrospection to find out why my "secondary mind" thinks what it thinks and what that means.

If I want to see images or how I call it "watch TV in the head" I have to just close my eyes and "think" with my "3rd mind" which is neither logical nor intuitive but just a never ending stream of landscapes,nature, mostly geographic and plant life I have never seen. I can not stop nor in any way interact with them I can just watch them pass by. I can not even hold an image in my mind for even a second which is why it literally is like watching TV for me. But with a resolution much better than when I watch TV.

So when you write


Quite often it is images, numbers, abstract concepts, ideas, etc.


I assume I have an idea of what you mean but than again I also thought my way of thinking was/is the norm. So I am very curious all of a sudden to hear about how other people think..but if I would ask you about your way of thinking how could words be ever satisfying enough to relate to this matter o0...but if you wish to try I certainly won´t stop you XD.


The idea of the "Genius" is simply an agent that is placed between the daily Ego and the "uncreated One"... like a "translator" or a "receiver".


Yes this would explain it quite perfectly what you describe as translator I described before as somehow figuring out in retrospect what my "secondary mind" is trying to relate to me. Interesting and thank you for giving me a good clue where to look further. Strangely regarding the mind I mostly used rather mainstream scientific methods far from anything occult like "daimon" although I "strived" similar concepts during my psychology studies regarding old Greek archetypes.

In most WESTERN mystical systems a person begins to work with a *fake* Genius or an artificial one that has the only aim of being like a "placebo" of the REAL one


Sadly I do not know if "my " "Genius" is fake or the real deal since at this point I have nothing to compare it with. But do you have something similar just not expressed as voice or do you just "skip the middleman" in your thinking?


... that the "revelations" are in most cases an amazing idea you suddenly have... or suddenly being able to decipher a "mystery" that you didn't understand before, etc... and not really a "conversation" in its literal meaning.



To me I have to have this literal conversation if I want to become aware of any revelation I "receive" or conclude. Without doing so I still have the insight but it will only be in the way that I understand something. I could not tell anyone why or how I do so and I could not use this insight on other topics/ thought processes. Which has been a classic most my life and I again assume so has it for many people that I had to tell my others " I just know such and such is like that and that but I can not tell you why" which is always a good way to look like a fool to others XD.

These conversations with "Genius" or my "primary mind" usually are broken down to single catch words and thought processes stored in my mind which in themselves describe many many concepts and words. So mostly, except for when I come across concepts which are completely new to me. I do not have linear "conversations" and it can be as fast as blinking an eye or as "deep" and detailed that some of those "conversations" last for years (with pauses in-between obv. ^^ )

Sorry for speaking so much about myself but I do not know how to objectively describe any of this and therefor can just relate on personal experience.
If you wish to I would greatly appreciate to hear how your thought processes function. What your "inner voice" feels like and if you have a different "daimon" or simply need none at all.


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zoas23
06-21-2016, 01:22 PM
That's OK, JinRa.

There's a phrase I like a lot, it's by Salvador Dalí, the painter: "The only difference between a madman and me is that i am not mad".

I've had the luck of getting interested in several systems of Hermeticism when I was quite young and getting initiated in several Orders. I've had the debate or conversation with different persons about the "Orders" and if they are good or not.

I'd say they are good as long as:

1) They are NOT based on the ideas of a specific person who can't be questioned (i.e, all the Orders based on the ideas of Aleister Crowley... and his revelation known as The book of the Law and his commandment that no person "shall not in one letter change this book"... That's bullshit for me, because the book can be very interesting for Crowley himself, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense to spend a lifetime repeating the nonsense the Crowley wrote as if it was the absolute truth).

2) You choose at least 3 which are VERY different... otherwise you end up getting a very narrow perspective... And no Order owns "the Truth"... so knowing at least 3 perspectives (or more, in my case it's more than 3)... such thing helps a lot to create your own personal perspective, which is yours. I don't like at all the "hooligans" of a specific system or Order... it's the easiest way of not thinking by yourself.

______________________________

Anyway, I am commenting this issue (unrelated to the main subject) as to explain why I know several western systems that have a strong emphasis on finding the Daimon / Genius / Guardian Angel / Whatever you want to call it / Etc.

The famous "Ora et Labora" is how this "upper mind" receives its food. This can be translated as study and practice.

Don't worry too much about being "the crazy one", since any system of Theurgy/Magic/Etc involves the idea of being artificially "crazy" (I'd say "psychotic") during some practices. The idea of having an "upper mind" (as to give it a name) is already "psychotic"... except that it's a controlled psychosis.

Anyway... I have commented about my experience in several Orders as to explain why I know which ones were my "fantasies" and which ones were the "fantasies" of others... and how these "fantasies" are often not how things actually work once they happen.

Unrealistic Fantasies:

-The "upper mind" will manifest itself as a voice in your head that tells you "The Truth" all the time. It will almost be like a "person" who knows "The Truth" about anything and tells it to you in a verbal way.

-It will have a clear image and will appear in front of you and start discussing about any subject you want with you.

-And some persons get too obsessed with it and feel the need to "ask" this "upper mind" about every choice they make in their lives (I've seen this same pathology happening with divination systems such as tarot, geomancy, etc)... A friend phones you and asks you if you wanna go to a restaurant to eat a pizza and chat for a while and laugh about life... the "sane" thing to do is to go if you want to... or tell him that you are tired if that's how you feel... but when you begin to feel that you need to use the tarot or the "upper mind" to decide if you wanna eat a pizza with a friend... that's when such things begin to become pathological.

_________________________________

Those are "fantasies" and they CAN happen during a meditation, but that's not exactly the point.

The MAIN expression of your mind can happen through language and that's fine. I'm sure your mind works with symbols too and maybe you do not notice it (i.e, If I tell you to think about a square or a circle... it doesn't matter if you "see" it in your mind and maybe "seeing" it is not truly relevant... I am sure you can understand the concept of a square without hearing an inner voice that says "square" and you can think about it as an "abstract concept"). Understanding what it a "square" is more relevant than being able to "see" it with your mind. Though with some practice you CAN begin to expand your "skill" of seeing things (i.e, this is simply a silly thing you can do, but it will work for sure: use a finger and draw in the air a square as if you were drawing on a paper... feel free to "paint" the line with the color of your choice... if you need it, you can even say aloud "SQUARE" whilst you are drawing it on the air... after a while you will probably "see" it, or at least have the notion that there's a "square" floating in the air there and you will also be able to "see" it inside your head).

As for the "false" and "real" higher self / Daimon / etc... Maybe "false" is not the right word. Think of it as a "substitute" or a "placebo" that you are using to build the "real one"... and it won't happen that in a very specific moment the "substitute" will be replaced by the "real" one. It is a process that takes time and maybe one of the WORST things to do is to define a specific moment in time in which the substitute has been replaced for the "real" one: it is actually a slow transmutation and it definitely does not happen in a specific moment (it's actually a process... like "building" something that takes time... so it's not that one day you'll wake up and say "I am suddenly in touch with my Daimon"... it's more like the process of painting a very large painting: when you begin you already have some "parts" of the painting and you still don't have other parts... and it takes a long time to "finish" it... and even once it is "finished", you may add other details later and decide that what you considered that was finished became something that needed some extra details). The infamous "enlightenment" doesn't happen in a specific day... it's progressive and maybe it's never "completely finished").

Reading your posts in this specific thread, I don't know you, but I'd say you are building the "substitute" of a Daimon and that's perfect. That's like the ground that you need to build later the "real" one... which will never be "completely finished" (and that's good).

JinRaTensei
06-21-2016, 06:33 PM
Just a quick side note.
Thx zoas23 for your reply very interesting! Have been letting what you said "simmer in my mind" for the last hours but still am not yet satisfied enough to reply in any way. Introspection can be a bitch sometimes ^^ but just wanted to let you know that it is anything but lack of interest or appreciation!