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Awani
07-24-2016, 03:44 AM
I was first going to post this in the thread The Reality of Illusion (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4251-The-Reality-of-Illusion), but after writing it I deemed it worthy of its own thread.

It is easy to state that reality is an illusion. Not everyone is a "Neo"... the reality of reality is very overpowering. Only in death will we truly "see" the illusion of reality.

But there is another aspect which I think is worth talking about: the delusion of reality. The illusionary aspects of reality is something we don't really necessarily have to concern ourselves with. After all there is very little we can do about it. But the delusionary qualities of reality, well that is something that can be taken care of right away.

A delusion is having a false, or unrealistic, belief or opinion... one such opinion is that reality is real. Now you could argue that there is no way for anyone to know if this is true or not so perhaps I am delusional in stating that reality is an illusion. But since everything I post in this forum is only my own perspective... and since they are all based on direct experiences... then I must conclude that what I think about reality is in fact the true state of affairs... for me.

Because I only value direct experience. And I can only speak from my own perspective. I am only preaching to myself. Now I would not be surprised if society at large would consider my views on reality to be delusional, but also I don't care if they think that because "common knowledge" is usually delusional by default as it is built on a foundation of indirect experiences - not direct experiences.

When we think about reality not being real we might think about the chair we are sitting in, that it is really not there. We might look out the window and whatever we see is really not there. It is all a virtual reality. If we could, we could and would, walk right through the wall. Because the wall is not there.

But all this only concerns the "matter" aspects of reality. And that is quite boring. This part of reality does not really matter if it is real or not real. By being able to perceive that the chair you are sitting in is only in your mind is not something that will change your life... and this is an alchemy forum after all. Let's not focus on the small things. ;)

What about your best friend? Is he or she real? What about your mother? To be fair it is impossible to know as I cannot enter the mind of my mother and find that out. But my stand is that my mother's spirit is real. Her physical body is not. Her gender is not. Even many of her traits are not real. Just different apps she's downloaded.

Imagine you go to the bank to get a loan for a new car. You set a meeting and meet your bank manager. He wears a suit. He has a diploma from the Bank School. And he has the right to grant you a loan. In a sense it is a business transaction. And regardless of what papers you need it comes down to a face to face meeting.

I have already stated that the body of the bank manager is not real. The building itself is not real. But most important the event itself is not real. This is where the delusion comes in. Maybe that is why I love when the Joker says: Why so serious?

Another example to try and explain what I mean concerns the law. Here is a quote by comedian Joe Rogan: "Law is a bunch of words written on paper by people who are generally considered to be liars and thieves."

The reason I bring up laws are because they are one of the most "real" things in our lives. Most people follow them without question. Same with traditions. Same with language. Same with gender roles. And on and on.

All these things are delusions of reality.

The only thing real in the unreal reality you find yourself in is YOU and how you feel about it, and ultimately what you do. Anything else is a delusion.

If it is your own delusion then go with it... but if you are following the delusion of others stop and consider what is going on.

Anyway just thought I'd put this out there. Perhaps it will give someone a bit of pleasure. Personally I have been trying to understand the delusion of reality for many decades now and I feel I am coming close to some sort of singularity concerning this issue. But it is very hard to put it into words, although writing about it helps me process my own conclusions, so the one that gets most out of this post is myself.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/tumblr_nxvmkuAwRv1rmv620o1_500_zpserjudhls.jpg

Appreciate any thoughts on this issue.

:cool:

Awani
08-08-2016, 08:37 PM
Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

:cool:

JDP
08-09-2016, 01:35 AM
As I have told you in other discussions about similar topics, anyone questioning what's "real" and what not perhaps should jump down from the top of a 10 story building to see "what happens": they will see whether reality is real or not when they quite predictably hit the bottom and break every bone in in their bodies. And why should anyone expect a different result? Empirical experience proves this will invariably be the outcome of such an action, no matter what the subject of the experiment thinks will happen. Anyone who manages to survive the "experiment" will never again question what's real and what not. Things like gravity = reality. What we fancy or think about reality = subjective interpretations that will not alter the facts.

Don't let speculative delusions confuse you regarding the reality of reality.

Note: the "laws", traditions, languages, etc. of men are subjective too, they change from one place to another, from one culture to the next, therefore they are not a good analogy. Physical facts are the same for all, unlike arbitrary man-made "laws", languages, traditions, etc. The gravity pulling you down and preventing you from floating around doesn't care one bit whether you are a bank robber or a cop, whether you speak Chinese or English, or if you like Mexican food more than Thai food. It will pull you down all the same. No exceptions, no preferences. Reality does not play favorites and has no prejudices. It is very egalitarian.

Ghislain
08-09-2016, 06:19 AM
JDP if only it were that simple...I do like your posts as it makes one think...there are rules to the illusion and they are very hard to break; killing yourself without control is the last thing you want to do.

In the film The Matrix, if you die within the matrix you die in reality.

Here if you end the game that is it, it is over, but you can learn to bend the rules.

Another thing people do not understand is that many of their actions are controlled by outside influences that are
fairly imperceptible. As Dev said...




If it is your own delusion then go with it... but if you are following the delusion of others stop and consider what is going on.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AegLdB7UI4U&ab_channel=AhmadShdefat

How many of your views are your own and how many are from conformity?

Ghislain

Awani
08-09-2016, 07:49 AM
JDP: your answer is not related to this thread, it is not about physical reality. But even if it is you still miss the point, but that is fine. It does not matter to me what delusion or illusion people choose to live in. The only thing that matter is what I choose.

Also your jumping from a building example show that the level you are thinking on is different than mine, and whatever I reply to such an argument will be useless to a mind that present such an argument to an issue such as what this thread is about.

Here is a good example actually: I was playing Minecraft (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3813-Minecraft) the other day. This game does not look very realistic, and I was not playing it in VR but on a normal monitor. Even so I was deeply into it. So much so in fact that when a monster surprised me the hair stood up on my neck and I tried to run away... I stumbled off a cliff and fell to my death. Butterflies in stomach and I even uttered a "no" when this happened.

If this is my reaction to Minecraft imagine what I would react in VR, or even better in what you call reality.

One aspect especially interesting with Minecraft is that you can have the option to play it with only ONE life. I never do this, because it makes it way too intense... But this is what reality feels like. If you die then that is it... even if you can restart and play a new game. But all your progress is lost forever.

:cool:

JinRaTensei
08-09-2016, 10:18 AM
Thinking about what JDP said maybe there are some aspects I would personally agree with, but mostly my perspective is closer to the one of Dev.

The delusion of illusion and the illusion of delusion. What do they both seem to have in common? a core of truth. the observer may change from personal introspection to society as a whole but both seem to have a grain of truth.

Think about it, if we are all spirits/parts of spirit incarnated than what and how will judge. If you have ANY goal in life than there always must also be judgement.Because only judgement/discernment will tell you if you have reached the goal. So there is always some form of observer AND some form of personal or global "value system".


Things like gravity = reality. What we fancy or think about reality = subjective interpretations that will not alter the facts.

instead of debating of whether or not this is the case is it not curious why "reality" seems to have the power to break personal illusions and delusions. Why is that?
Why is there a common denominator on the outside which rules most people?

People, objects, events etc are not real BUT something about the way we interact with the world and each other "judges" us gives us polarity.

You are a good person you go to heaven.
You are a wise buddha you will become enlightened.
You are a bad person you go to hell.

Maybe the only thing real in this "reality" is not our will,soul,spirit or anything else but JUST some kind of "judgement" some kind of cosmic approval/disapproval.


If that is the case than nothing in this world matters except for what you personally deem good, pure and "right" AND how/if you act accordingly.

The crazy person who thinks it is good and "right" to eat rocks for breakfast and drink sand for dinner will achieve more/cultivate higher than the lets say a firefighter hero who saves 10 lives every year BUT does not believe in what he is doing and just views it as job.

All what makes us human is our judgement
This is why when judgement is taken away we either become gods or demons.

Awani
08-09-2016, 10:48 AM
Thinking about what JDP said maybe there are some aspects I would personally agree with...

Sure I feel the same, I had that line of thinking for at least 15-20 years.


Maybe the only thing real in this "reality" is not our will,soul,spirit or anything else but JUST some kind of "judgement" some kind of cosmic approval/disapproval.

Yes, I think there is a general consensus that creates reality. If there were no moderators in this forum - and even though we would suffer a lot of trolls and spam - it would still be about alchemy (for the most part).


become gods or demons.

Demons are just a term for guiding spirit, inner oracle etc. It is the Church that placed the Demon with the Devil. I have befriended a lot of demons over the years and they are certainly "gods" and not "evil". But on the other hand what is evil? From the perspective that you have when looking into this world our rules, ethics and morals may look like a childish moronic joke. Guess this is another topic altogether.

:cool:

JinRaTensei
08-09-2016, 11:01 AM
Demons are just a term for guiding spirit, inner oracle etc. It is the Church that placed the Demon with the Devil. I have befriended a lot of demons over the years and they are certainly "gods" and not "evil".

Agree, we are always both gods and demons just depending on who judges when for whatever reason.

Although I have to say just casually throwing befriending demons in there, got to love this place :).

JDP
08-09-2016, 03:20 PM
JDP: your answer is not related to this thread, it is not about physical reality. But even if it is you still miss the point, but that is fine. It does not matter to me what delusion or illusion people choose to live in. The only thing that matter is what I choose.

Also your jumping from a building example show that the level you are thinking on is different than mine, and whatever I reply to such an argument will be useless to a mind that present such an argument to an issue such as what this thread is about.

Here is a good example actually: I was playing Minecraft (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3813-Minecraft) the other day. This game does not look very realistic, and I was not playing it in VR but on a normal monitor. Even so I was deeply into it. So much so in fact that when a monster surprised me the hair stood up on my neck and I tried to run away... I stumbled off a cliff and fell to my death. Butterflies in stomach and I even uttered a "no" when this happened.

If this is my reaction to Minecraft imagine what I would react in VR, or even better in what you call reality.

One aspect especially interesting with Minecraft is that you can have the option to play it with only ONE life. I never do this, because it makes it way too intense... But this is what reality feels like. If you die then that is it... even if you can restart and play a new game. But all your progress is lost forever.

:cool:

I think it is you (and Ghislain) who keep missing the point. Neither you nor I have any "choice" when it comes to reality. It is the exact same one for all of us. The same gravity that is pulling you down and preventing you from floating around is the exact same one that does the same to me. The same oxygen in the air that is keeping you from asphyxiating is the exact same one that is preventing me from asphyxiating too. The water that is keeping you hydrated is the same one that does the same to me. And so on. How we choose to interpret that reality is what is different (theories & speculations regarding what exactly is the "gravity", "oxygen", "water", etc. that affect our existence), but the empirical facts remain the same for all. This is the very basis of reality (what you keep trying to put question marks on but unnecessarily since we can plainly perceive how real it is.)

theFool
08-09-2016, 03:37 PM
One aspect especially interesting with Minecraft is that you can have the option to play it with only ONE life. I never do this, because it makes it way too intense... But this is what reality feels like. If you die then that is it... even if you can restart and play a new game. But all your progress is lost forever. Cool analogy.
I suppose you will stop restarting the game only after you finish it a few times and the interest is lost. Then you download more games to play because of the extreme boredom. After all that, you may one day move on to become a game developper and programmer, who knows..

Ghislain
08-09-2016, 06:02 PM
If you are always looking forward you will never see what is happening behind you.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8c/cb/5a/8ccb5a39b8d5221059437b19370934ac.jpg

Matthew 7:7

Ghislain

Awani
08-09-2016, 08:41 PM
I think it is you (and Ghislain) who keep missing the point. Neither you nor I have any "choice" when it comes to reality. It is the exact same one for all of us. The same gravity that is pulling you down and preventing you from floating around is the exact same one that does the same to me. The same oxygen in the air that is keeping you from asphyxiating is the exact same one that is preventing me from asphyxiating too. The water that is keeping you hydrated is the same one that does the same to me. And so on. How we choose to interpret that reality is what is different (theories & speculations regarding what exactly is the "gravity", "oxygen", "water", etc. that affect our existence), but the empirical facts remain the same for all. This is the very basis of reality (what you keep trying to put question marks on but unnecessarily since we can plainly perceive how real it is.)

This is a perfect example of the delusion of reality. ;)

But to be serious for a moment this what you write is never what we are talking about. Just because gravity appears real doesn't mean it is.


I suppose you will stop restarting the game only after you finish it a few times and the interest is lost.

Well no, because you can play for days and days and build amazing things... discover new lands, collect lots of gold and other minerals and create potions like a true lab alchemist and then one day you die and everything you have done is gone. Like real life.

So it can be very intense. You really fear death. As in this "real life".

But I would not say no to develop games, especially VR ones.

:cool:

JDP
08-10-2016, 02:42 PM
This is a perfect example of the delusion of reality. ;)

But to be serious for a moment this what you write is never what we are talking about.

On the contrary, what I write gets at the very basics of what you keep trying to put question marks on.


Just because gravity appears real doesn't mean it is.

If it isn't real, then why aren't you floating around, either willing or unwillingly? Why isn't our planet just drifting into space instead of orbiting around a more massive body? If gravity is "not real", then why is it that it is so easy to predict what will happen if you jump down a cliff? And if you could live to tell about it after spending a good time at the hospital healing your wounds, and then jumped down the cliff again the result would exactly be the same as before. And so on. Gravity "appears real" because it actually is. As real as the monitor which allows you to read these very words, and which also allows you to try to put strange question marks on reality in these forums.

Awani
08-10-2016, 03:08 PM
I am not trying to convince anyone. I know what I know and that is enough for me. But I never said the illusion is not real. Still illusion though...

:cool:

theFool
08-10-2016, 04:23 PM
Every law has its weaknesses and can be manipulated or "hacked". For example hot air ballons and airplanes circumvent the law of a body falling off the cliff. Wether we will be able one day to rewrite the law of gravity remains to be seen (for example antigravity machines, podkletnov effect etc.).

If everyone was taking the "facts of life" for real facts, we would never have hot air ballons and airplanes.

JDP
08-10-2016, 04:39 PM
Every law has its weaknesses and can be manipulated or "hacked". For example hot air ballons and airplanes circumvent the law of a body falling off the cliff. Wether we will be able one day to rewrite the law of gravity remains to be seen (for example antigravity machines, podkletnov effect etc.).

If everyone was taking the "facts of life" for real facts, we would never have hot air ballons and airplanes.

Not a good example because we in fact know that things like hot air balloons seem to "defy" gravity (which "defiance" is really just an illusion, by the way; ironically, in the end it is actually thanks to gravity that air balloons can work!) It is because other facts (different air densities) which are just as real as gravity is. I never said that gravity was the only fact. I merely use it as a good example of what facts are.

theFool
08-10-2016, 05:23 PM
... we in fact know that things like hot air balloons seem to "defy" gravity ... We know it today. Imagine saying that a hot air balloon can make a man fly in an era before its invention... Or saying that a machine heavier than air can carry a man and fly! I find it hard to believe even today.

Awani
08-10-2016, 06:12 PM
If those that argue against what I am saying understood my words, then they would use different arguments, because the ones in use now show they don't "get it".

Yes gravity kills if you jump from a tall building, YES... but I am saying there is no building there.

:cool:

JinRaTensei
08-10-2016, 06:18 PM
I find it hard to believe even today.

Same here, strangely whenever I ponder about these "Paradoxes of our pereception" the story of Columbus discovering America comes to my mind.
In many tales and fables (no idea if true obv.) it is said that the natives could not see the gigantic sailing ships of the europeans even when they landed on the beach right in front of them.
They literally could not see what their perception deemed to be not real. So vice versa I always wondered if passenger planes would fly if we as a society would view them just as piece of heavy metal..

So which law is it in the case of Columbus and the natives, the law of perception or the law of physics. If the story is true than our delusions are stronger than "reality", if the story is not true it is still a nice thought experiment, imo. :)

Awani
08-10-2016, 06:29 PM
Of course the delusion is stronger than reality. Look at world affairs and all the people who re-elect the same people they know fucked them over time and time again. It is all a joke. So I always ask: why so serious? ;)

:cool:

JinRaTensei
08-10-2016, 06:43 PM
True Dev but I mean in the sense that not just our perception is stronger but that our perception dictates the laws of physics.

I remember a video I saw about 10 years ago which totally flashed my understanding of the world.

The video showed a stage hypnotist at an event who gathered a couple of peoples from the crowd and hypnoticed them on stage.

Than he said to one of the hypnoticed people that he himself does not materially exist, that he himself has no body. He than stood before the hypnoticed person and showed different objects and hand signs behind his back and the hypnoticed person could see them as if truely no person was standing right in front of him blocking his view.
Up until that point I "believed" in hypnotism as in that our perception is stronger than reality but it would not change reality just the way we experience it personally. But if this video I saw is not just some "trick" which it obv. could be than this would change the importance of perception to a whole other level.

JDP
08-10-2016, 07:28 PM
If those that argue against what I am saying understood my words, then they would use different arguments, because the ones in use now show they don't "get it".

Yes gravity kills if you jump from a tall building, YES... but I am saying there is no building there.

:cool:

If there isn't any building there, then how could you possibly have jumped? The facts don't add up with the claims.

Awani
08-11-2016, 12:04 AM
...but that our perception dictates the laws of physics.

Yes I have seen the cases you mention before as well as others, and some personal ones. It is very easy to be certain about something until you experience the opposite. I am not certain about anything, but my views on the tings we have been talking about are based on direct personal experience and nothing more. Sometimes I back these up with other sources, but one can always pick and choose what fits any model.

I am not afraid of being wrong in regards to my views. I change my mind all the time on different matters, but so far all counter-arguments I have heard just don't hold water for me because those arguments lack a basic understanding of the thing they are trying to argue against, which is a bit funny. What is even more funny is that I know for a fact how gravity works, and that I die if I jump of a cliff or that I die if I shoot myself with a bullet... but I am not saying that those things are not real.

I am sure you (and most people) have had a nightmare, a horrible dream... and you just wish it was a dream so you can wake up... and you scream... and finally you wake up and thank God that it was only a dream. Happy that it wasn't real.

But in the dream it was real. It was very real. Only when you woke up did you understand that it was only a dream.

The illusion is real. And there is nothing we can do about that. But - and this is what I meant this thread to be about - we can do something about the delusion... because there is a big difference knowing the illusion is real from thinking it is just "real". Some find it horrifying, some find it liberating... I am in the latter category.

I forgot to mention this before (I think it was brought up in some thread, can't recall where), but Jedi mind tricks do work. I've done it on occasion... but there is nothing special about it... people only call things magic because they don't understand it. If they did understand, it would not be magic.

Ok I rambled enough. Again I am not preaching the truth, just sharing how I feel and think about these things.

:cool:

JDP
08-11-2016, 12:40 AM
Yes I have seen the cases you mention before as well as others, and some personal ones. It is very easy to be certain about something until you experience the opposite. I am not certain about anything, but my views on the tings we have been talking about are based on direct personal experience and nothing more. Sometimes I back these up with other sources, but one can always pick and choose what fits any model.

I am not afraid of being wrong in regards to my views. I change my mind all the time on different matters, but so far all counter-arguments I have heard just don't hold water for me because those arguments lack a basic understanding of the thing they are trying to argue against, which is a bit funny. What is even more funny is that I know for a fact how gravity works, and that I die if I jump of a cliff or that I die if I shoot myself with a bullet... but I am not saying that those things are not real.

I am sure you (and most people) have had a nightmare, a horrible dream... and you just wish it was a dream so you can wake up... and you scream... and finally you wake up and thank God that it was only a dream. Happy that it wasn't real.

But in the dream it was real. It was very real. Only when you woke up did you understand that it was only a dream.

The illusion is real. And there is nothing we can do about that. But - and this is what I meant this thread to be about - we can do something about the delusion... because there is a big difference knowing the illusion is real from thinking it is just "real". Some find it horrifying, some find it liberating... I am in the latter category.

I forgot to mention this before (I think it was brought up in some thread, can't recall where), but Jedi mind tricks do work. I've done it on occasion... but there is nothing special about it... people only call things magic because they don't understand it. If they did understand, it would not be magic.

Ok I rambled enough. Again I am not preaching the truth, just sharing how I feel and think about these things.

:cool:

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/files/2015/02/NOTJedi1-300x172.jpg