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Loki Morningstar
07-27-2016, 02:33 PM
While reading a reply on a thread to a post I started called What Is Alchemy To Me? (http://http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4812-What-Is-Alchemy-To-Me). I felt a little rush as I read JinRaTensei’s metaphor about Internal Alchemy:


The body the temple, the mind the lab, and the heart the cauldron. I invent the change I desire in my lab, then create that change by cooking in my cauldron so that the change takes visible form in my temple, which again ensures that my lab has all the materials it needs.

I really liked this metaphor, and feel it could be expanded upon. So I will attempt to do so on this thread. I feel the core concepts hold strong, although there is so much more that could be added. As I read the quote I thought of the Lab as being a mind palace. A place you could build in meditation and eventually learn to access in a dream state.

It may have a dashboard for what is going on in your cauldron and temple, perhaps a secondary cauldron like a pensive from the infamous Harry Potter; a place to reminisce or store memories. It could have a bookcases with duplicates of our journals. I personally think this metaphor would easily become a working metaphor. With a little hard work and perseverance. Perhaps even the addition of binaural beats to assist the Theta waves.

I am also going to be expanding on this thread over time. I have plenty of other ideas for this. I just wanted to get the initial thought down as a place holder and reminder. I am now going to go and do some work on my Objectivity/Subjectivity writing and research. Which I have been meaning to do for some time.

So was hoping that people may share some ideas of what you could have in a Alchemist’s Mind Palace. Or perhaps some of your favourite Internal Mental Alchemy tools which could fit well.

Awani
07-27-2016, 05:03 PM
I see it a bit different.

Body = Temple
Gut = Lab + Cauldron
Heart = Psychological arcehtype to achieve a specific state of mind
Mind = Gateway

:cool:

Loki Morningstar
07-27-2016, 05:12 PM
Thats interesting, I love a bit of variety. I wonder how many others have variations of a similar idea.

JinRaTensei
07-27-2016, 05:46 PM
I really liked this metaphor, and feel it could be expanded upon. So I will attempt to do so on this thread. I feel the core concepts hold strong, although there is so much more that could be added

Thank you for your kind words! This metaphor actually is not something I thought up myself but just my own understanding of an alchemical concept which will cross your path at some point if you continue this road.
In its simplest form it is the concept of the trinity Mercury, Sulfur and Salt.
Mercury = mind or spirit
Sulfur = soul or your essence
Salt = your body or material objects

Many sources will mention these substances instead of saying mind/soul/body. The goal is to find your personal balance/equilibrium and to elevate yourself(all of them except for the ego part in short) and to also elevate the body(all of them as in different energy bodies).
Cultivate only the mind and your wisdom and knowledge will increase to the maximum of the spectrum being omiscience but you will only know how to be immortal but not be it.
Cultivate only the soul and your love, compassion and "way of being" will increase to the maximum of the spectrum being pure love or light. You will be immortal and omniscience but you will not be you and you will not be able to act according to your own will since neither your will has been cultivated to the same level as well as your body has not so in short you have neither a driver nor a vehicle but limitless gasoline.
Cultivate only the body and your energy,endurance,shape,ability will increase to the maximum of the spectrum being omnipotence but you will only have a immortal body your mind will not be able to comprehend/use this higher energy body and your mind will at some point opt out what is called insanity.Also your soul will also not be able to comprehend/use this immortal body and will not be able to keep up the energy. So at some point you will have no desire to live, no wishes and hopes, just nothing. But a different nothing from what you experience in meditation, the soulless nothing is like a black hole sucking energy away into nothingness/void while meditation is like a empty hole in the earth which slowly fills with water (spiritual essence, spiritus mundi, the one matter etc).

If one wants to create ones own mindpalace or entire cosmos I would suggest learning the rules/laws governing the building of the palace first. But remember it is not about knowledge but comprehension. For instance I sometimes read one and the same book/text several times over the course of several years and allthough I objectively allways read the same my comprehension of what I read changes each time greatly.

A very good example, imo, of the difference between comprehension and knowledge is the great Buddha himself.
Vigyan Bhairav Tantra which you can find in its entirety here in this forums ressource section.
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?84-Alchemy-PDF-s-amp-E-books
It s a compilation of dozens of different breathing techniques and ways to harness energy/refine consciousness. There are 112 different techniques from different schools explained.
The very first technique:
Radiant One, this experience may dawn between two breaths.After breath comes in (down) and just before turning up (out) – the beneficence.

Nothing more. Just these lines. But, this is said to be the only technique the great Buddha used to reach immortality,enlightenment and everything else which is associated with the Buddha.
It was not his knowledge but his comprehension. Today with the internet many of us probably have much more knowledge than Gautama ever had in his earthly lifetime but it is all useless and a deflection because we have no comprehension.

I would advise you to take a look at the hermetic principles or golden chain of homer as a foundation since this will give you "the little rulebook" with which you will comprehend all other or more advanced concepts on a whole different level.

But than again this is just what I would suggest. I am neither able to give you the best advice for your own life nor am I the most experienced you will find in this forum( not even close ^^ ). But since being a novice myself maybe I can relate to what is leading your heart in the beginning of your journey.

And never forget, enjoy :)

JinRaTensei
07-27-2016, 06:03 PM
dev

Very interesting if you donīt mind could you expand a little


Gut = Lab + Cauldron

Do you mean by this the lower dantian/ first energy center of the body?
Since this physically really seems to be the "boiling room" of the body the cauldron part would fit perfectly but I am a bit curious about the lab part. Do we have different understandings of the metaphor lab in this regard or why is it that you would put your mind/spirit here? For instance according to my current understanding I would say the gut is the cauldron+recipe but not the actual lab where you think of/create the recipe.


Heart = Psychological arcehtype to achieve a specific state of mind

In which way do you refer to archetype in this specific discussion? In my mind an archetype is more akin to a fundamental concept/principle of some sort. So it confuses me that an archetype could achieve anything like a specific state of mind in that sense. You can, your heart can, your soul can (imo) but I feel I am lacking the understanding of an archetype in this regard. Because isnīt an archetype something akin to inspiration it does nothing by itself but inspires/catalyses reactions in the observer.

Loki Morningstar
07-27-2016, 07:42 PM
JimRaTensei:
So much good information here! There is no point me quoting my favourite parts, I would end up quoting most of your post. Thank you for sharing this with me. I am slightly silenced and in awe.

When I get some time I am going to sit down and really contemplate what you have offered me in this post. It really deserves some focused time dedicated to it.

As a general update for anyone who is interested. I am still working on my "Objective vs. Subjective" piece. Although it seems to have transmuted into a "What is it to 'know'?" piece at the moment as I search for the smallest piece of information (Which as a tid-bit of my findings appears to be 'data'). This piece is certainly going to take me more than a few days working flat out. Which luckily I have at the moment. So I am hoping for completion in about 3 days.

JinRaTensei
07-27-2016, 08:31 PM
So much good information here! There is no point me quoting my favourite parts, I would end up quoting most of your post. Thank you for sharing this with me. I am slightly silenced and in awe.

Thank you very kind but just wait until you get to know more about the other alchemists here and you will see that what I can offer is nothing much really but if I hear the great motivation in your words correctly than I have done my little part :).


This piece is certainly going to take me more than a few days working flat out. Which luckily I have at the moment. So I am hoping for completion in about 3 days.

Looking forward to it but donīt feel forced to hold a certain time frame you mentioned.


"What is it to 'know'?" piece at the moment as I search for the smallest piece of information (Which as a tid-bit of my findings appears to be 'data')

Is there data without any kind of observer?How does a observer recognize data? also with some kind of (own) data? So there has to be something "before" or even "smaller" than data maybe?
What recognices is consciousness, so what is consciousness?

A really hard and deep topic you chose with more than one absolute answer like everything else I assume. Looking forward to your thoughts on this :)

Aaron
07-27-2016, 08:53 PM
Mercury = mind or spirit
Sulfur = soul or your essence
Salt = your body or material objects

The goal is to find your personal balance/equilibrium


To add my few cents:

Mind = thoughts/ideas
Soul/Heart = desires
Body = actions

Mercurius is the messenger right? In other words Mercurius, mind, thought is the messenger between desires and actions. The inner world (desire) and the outer world (actions).

You have the desire to reach a goal, but your actions have nothing to do with it? Think about your goal. Keep the goal in your mind. Repeat it to yourself... If you do this, your hearts desires will be translated into actions. That's atleast the way I understand this concept.

Your thoughts should fit your desires, aswell as your actions. Desire one thing, think about another, will lead to "doing nothing".
Desire one thing, think about achieving it, will make you work on it.


I just looked something up I once wrote down for myself. It mainly differs in the meaning of salt, which I wrote here, but it might help the discussion:

Sulfur = passion / willpower
Mercury = thoughts / imagination
Salt = consciousness that combines Sulfur and Mercury

Below I noted a text phrase of which I forgot where I got it from (google points towards "an idiots guide to alchemy" but I am pretty sure I never read this book; no idea where I got that quote from; sorry):

"Both the Imagination of Mercury and the Will of Sulfur must be called into action. When the two are conjoined and the Imagination creates an image and the Will directs and uses that image, then marvelous magical effects can be obtained."

Awani
07-27-2016, 09:51 PM
Do you mean by this the lower dantian/ first energy center of the body?

There is a lot of wisdom in the well-known phrase "you are what you eat"... using various diets to achieve different states of mind/body the stomach is like an alchemical lab.


In which way do you refer to archetype in this specific discussion?

It was the only word that I could think of. When you say "think with the heart" you are really thinking with the mind... but you are using the archetype of the heart (compassion/love and so on).

:cool:

Loki Morningstar
07-28-2016, 11:23 AM
Thank you very kind but just wait until you get to know more about the other alchemists here and you will see that what I can offer is nothing much really but if I hear the great motivation in your words correctly than I have done my little part :).

Well currently I can only compare yourself to myself, and your knowledge seems to far outweigh my own with regards to Alchemy currently. Your humbleness abounds and that can only be a good thing.


Looking forward to it but donīt feel forced to hold a certain time frame you mentioned

Thank you, and I feel that I sometimes work better under a time frame. I hope to at least have something up wishing three days. Even if not finished article. To be honest, what I am struggling with is that the working out is large, perhaps more than anyone will be willing to read. My difficulty is that I cannot condense it until I have fully particulated it. If that was a real word. I am sure Alchemy would have a better word for it. I may share my a brief post explaining my goal and process, and the post a link to a document in my blog?


Is there data without any kind of observer?

As for your first question. I believe the we in the question makes this quote clear. Although I totally agree with your train of thought.


How does an observer recognise data?

This is very much what my article will be about. Currently I have managed to get to 'idea' (meaning see, or form, a pattern), to 'suggestion', which links to 'associate'. So this means I am practically down to my core words. And they are becoming more and more objective. I am getting somewhere but it is a long process. Should have a beautiful piece of work by the end of it, but currently it is a mess.


what is consciousness?

Yet again, this is very much the goal of my article, to explain this is as simple a way as possible. Using concisely defined, objective based, words.


A really hard and deep topic you chose with more than one absolute answer like everything else I assume. Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

If it was easy, it would be worth doing. ;)

Thanks for your support with this. It is really nice to be able to come up for a breather and have a chat with someone while doing it. You are much appreciated sir.

Loki Morningstar
07-28-2016, 11:25 AM
Dev, and Aaron, Thanks again for your input on this. This is all such great stuff. I am really enjoying seeing how much diversity there is between all your ideas, and how they all work. They all seem to have underlying ideas/concept, I wonder if we could get to those.

Ghislain
07-29-2016, 07:29 AM
Is there data without any kind of observer?How does a observer recognize data? also with some kind of (own) data? So there has to be something "before" or even "smaller" than data maybe?
What recognices is consciousness, so what is consciousness?


The video below is interesting to watch in its entirety, but there is one point that is made at 58:40 thinking of our brain, not as a generator of consciousness, but as a receiver; is our consciousness external to our body?

As with a computer that recognises a text file (our body and mind), there are many text files which may be external to the computer which are only translated once received via some medium, either a keyboard (self created), a storage device or a channel on the internet (an exterior source).

It depends on the programmer who creates the interpreting program as to how the file is interpreted. Obviously we come to some agreement that there will be a certain format so we can all interpret a text file in the same way or the intended information will be lost. However, as we create our interpreters within ourselves these may have many varying rules of interpretation and thus you create a personality.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PIHu1ev7rk&ab_channel=ConsideringReality

Ghislain

Ghislain
07-29-2016, 09:14 AM
Different ways of interpreting the same code.

Hexdecimal string of code.

48 65 6C 6C 6F 20 4A 69 6E 52 61 54 65 6E 73 65 69 2C 20 69 74 20 69 73 20 61 20 70 6C 65 61 73 75
72 65 20 74 6F 20 74 61 6C 6B 20 77 69 74 68 20 79 6F 75 2E

Decimal string of code.

72 101 108 108 111 32 74 105 110 82 97 84 101 110 115 101 105 44 32 105 116 32 105 115 32
97 32.112 108 101 97 115 117 114 101 32 116 97 108 107 105 110 103 32 119 105 116 104 32
121 111 117 46

Binary string of code. (what a computer actually sees)

01001000011001010110110001101100011011110010000001 001010011010010110111001010010
01100001010101000110010101101110011100110110010101 101001001011000010000001101001
01110100001000000110100101110011001000000110000100 100000011100000110110001100101
01100001011100110111010101110010011001010010000001 110100011000010110110001101011
01101001011011100110011100100000011101110110100101 110100011010000010000001111001
011011110111010100101110

Note: the computer interprets the above code in groups of eight bits.

Code interpreted as text.

“Hello JinRaTensei, it is a pleasure talking with you.”

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We know that some plants contain mind altering compounds, each different and with higher or
lower strengths. We eat plants and thus ingest these different compounds and so doing we may
change our interpreter...we tune in to different channels so to speak.

Most of the time we use the same interpreting formula thus we understand words we hear and
speak. If I see a cup then you see a cup, but there may be subtle differences in our interpreter that
allow us all to see the world slightly differently, or in some cases with vast difference.


There is a lot of wisdom in the well-known phrase "you are what you eat"... using various diets to achieve different states of mind/body the stomach is like an alchemical lab.


Ghislain

Loki Morningstar
07-29-2016, 05:11 PM
Hi Ghislain,

Your addition was very enjoyable. I feel it accentuates, and add validity, to the original idea. I shall attempt to explain why. I would like to share, what I think, an interesting theory regarding the repetition of ideas in dream state. I do not personally have enough data to make full conclusion; and so cannot judge the validity of any other ideas. This just rings most true to me.

I find it interesting that you talk about computer code. I feel we may have similar concepts. I hope that my other post which I am working on will be a good adjunct to this concept. Although it is turning out to be a large work and so I am not sure when I shall complete it.

I will explain two concepts before finally concluding and adding a final slightly separate third point.

Ancestral memory, the power of the subconscious, then a conclusion. Finally, collective consciousness.

Apologies in advance, it may be a bit long, although I attempt to make it as concise as possible.

Ancestral Memory

Evidence shows every cell in our body capable of holding large amounts of information. DNA, the cell membrane, etc. Dogs are bred to be more capable to do certain jobs. The dog becomes more proficient at a job, generation on generation. Chicks kept in sensory isolation, in a white room, fed by a man in a white suit. A silhouette of the chicks mothers passed over them, the chicks reach up as if reaching for food. A silhouette of the chicks natural predator passed over them, the chicks attempt to hide themselves.

Clearly this shows there must be mental information hard wired into the brain before ‘nurture learning’ takes place. Biologists state we are born with only basic functions. Yet chicks show recognition of shape, and attachment of meaning to the shape. And the chicks have much less grey matter than a human.

The Power of the Subconscious

We know the subconscious is powerful due to its ability to create wonderfully complex dream realities; where we spend around an eighth of our time on earth. Sometimes feeling more real than reality.

The video stated for 195,000 years humans were the same bodily. No changes in behaviour until 33,000 years ago, then a dramatic change; drawing on walls, showing signs of spirituality. 33,000 years for complex ideas to be created in the subconscious, and passed generation to generation.

That is a lot of dream time. Perhaps long enough to create separate consciousnesses to our own within our subconscious, passed along ancestrally. Similar to how we can now create virtual machines/computers, on the cloud/internet servers, or run an operating system, within another operating system.

Perhaps our parents whole memory before they conceived could be passed onto the child. Children are supposed more likely to see ghosts. Perhaps having not yet fully built their own character/consciousness they are more able to commune with the ancestors in their subconscious.

Conclusion

The reason for common ideas in our dream states could be that we all come from common ancestors, and so would have common ideas, especially when from similar cultures. And the reason I think it is so important to learn to create things mentally, such as a mind palaces to harness this potential, is we may be able to encode more useful info into our genetics for future generations, especially if we teach the young.

Collective Consciousness

As a third concept, that I would like to keep slightly separate, as I think the above concept works on its own. Perhaps there is also a collective consciousness created be a field of sub atomic particles that form data streams in the air, that could perhaps be too small for us to currently observe.

There has even been some evidence of this also, with regards to an experiment done with chimps. Potatoes dropped in sand. Some chimps learnt to wash them. Once the idea reached critical mass, it seems the majority of the chimps learnt to do so without even needing to see the act objectively.

Sorry again that this has been a bit long, I attempted to make it as short as I could, although it seemed to need to be this length to get all this info across.

Loki Morningstar

JinRaTensei
07-29-2016, 11:42 PM
Ghislain



Code interpreted as text.

“Hello JinRaTensei, it is a pleasure talking with you.”

It has been a pleasure as well :), not in the mindset to reply yet but while pondering about your post for a while other experiences/"knowledge" of mine connected and I had an personal "enlightenment". Have to sleep on it but I think I have for myself just made a great improvement in my understanding of life, reality and magic.
It was just this personal faithfull moment where everything was there in the right place at the right time.

Your post + my experiences with a triumvirat symbol +a phrase from Nikola Tesla I never had heard of before today
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3,6 and 9, then you would have the key to the universe

so thanks alot for your helping hand XD.

Loki Morningstar
07-30-2016, 02:16 PM
Hey JinRaTensei,

Still working on this writing. I think you were right it is going to take a lot longer than I thought. I didn't realise there was so much circular reasoning in the English language. :(

I am really interested to learn more about your epiphany. Love those moments where everything is in the right place at the right time. I hadn't heard of a 'triumvirate' until you said it. So did a little research, interesting concept. And I would love to hear your view on the Tesla quote.

Look forward to hearing from you. :)

Loki Moriningstar.

JinRaTensei
07-30-2016, 06:13 PM
Loki Morningstar

Thx, I am also looking forward to your work! Like you I also will need some days of deepening my comprehension regarding "my" discoveries otherwise it would get a pages long giant mess ^^.
But to me "my" findings are quite interesting and profound so I hope I will be able to present them to others at least in a stringend way. :)

Loki Morningstar
07-30-2016, 10:11 PM
I have really begun to struggle. I think I might have to post the problem rather than the solution. And then post my progress rather than trying to do it in one hit. I'm going to give it a break for the weekend now. Pick it back up Monday. I think fresh eyes might help.

Ghislain
07-31-2016, 01:50 PM
Loki Morningstar, as the originator of this thread, “The Mind Palace”, I would like to ask you if you believe that the world in which we live is, in your opinion, a figment of your imagination (self created), an experience of another being’s imagination (a creator) or a random set of mathematical events interpreted by us as “our worldly existence” (just a phenomena we experience only as observers)?

While you ponder this I have included below some mind candy. The first video is a lecture by Baroness Susan Greenfield CBE, a British scientist specialising in the physiology of the brain, she researches the impact of 21st century technologies on the mind, how the brain (in Susan’s opinion) generates consciousness and novel approaches to neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.


http://www.youtube.com/watch v=k_ZTNmkIiBc#t=3648

The second video scientifically argues the two conflicting trains of thought of Plato vs Democritus, where Democritus believes in materialism and that all that exists is based on the construction of atoms, which are the only things that really exist and thus consciousness is a product of physical processes in the brain, a hypothesis followed by the likes of Newton, Darwin and many other Western scientists. Plato built his philosophy on the concept of Idealism, where ideas are more fundamental than atoms, that consciousness is primary and gives rise to all physical matter and process.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqULEE7eY8M&ab_channel=FairWindFilms

I have to say that I, at this moment in time, lean more towards Plato’s reasoning; I have not arrived at this conclusion through scientific process, but through meditation, psychedelics and gut feeling; as such I am still open to persuasion. ;)


Ghislain

Loki Morningstar
08-02-2016, 10:32 AM
Hi Ghislain,

Thank you for your question, and for sharing your mind candy. I enjoyed both videos. I will try to answer your questions the best I can. To do so, I will have to explain some of my beliefs*. Sorry that it took me a while to write back, it is a large question, and I wanted to take the time to answer.

The language we use to communicate these kinds of conversations, is not up to the task. It could be, but it is not. Philosophical language needs to be more like mathematics, strict rules, strict definitions of terms. Or at least for the person to set their own terms beforehand.

Unless we all do the hard work of creating good working definitions, which I am working on, and would love to work together with people from the forum to do so. Then no one can truly explain their beliefs. If one says red, and the listener sees green, both parties get nowhere.

To do this work of defining. I like to start at “I AM”. Asking myself:

“Am I? How do I know I am? What is it to be?”

Because I perceive, I reason?

Then I must define these things.

“What is it to perceive?”

The ability to receive data, and store the data collected?

Then I must define what an ability is, what data is, etc. I shall not now. Although an important question related to your topic may be:

“Where does data come from?”

Our language unravels at this point. Most definitions assume objectivity. Also, many dictionaries use circular reasoning. Such as data is information, information is data; which is useless.

Although information theory seems to be talking about using shannon's bits/shannon's entropy https://youtu.be/JnJq3Py0dyM, which will likely be useful for probability waves. I like this concept, and shall likely use it myself.

This happens similarly when it comes to reason.

“What is it to reason?”

Creation of links between collections of mental bits?

Complex pattern recognition?

What are the bits, where do they come from, how is it stored, what is the process?

Scientists move forward, and find answers to these questions, but to truly move forward we must create definitions, unbiased toward either materialism, or idealism (Until we know for sure, of we ever can), and which have more utility in conversations of this kind.

Perhaps different names for “information” based on its “size” and “content” (For want of better words). Perhaps: Bits: Datum: Data: Information: Knowledge: Smallest to largest. Visual Data, Audio Data, Emotional Data, etc.

If you wish me to answer in a more conventional fashion. I would say that all is true, as I cannot know any different with the data I currently have. Even if a cop out, I like this kind of view. I feel it keeps me open to new ideas.

The Hermetic works seems to state it is a paradoxical state where both exist at the same time, all is vibration, all exists, all is 'real' and not 'real'. Two poles of the same thing.

We see in the videos, it will all depend on definition of, and how/if we perceive “matter”,"real", "existence". It seems perception is able to change “matter”.

Which is it? I believe it is none, and all. All and none. Real as we will ever know, and also illusionary. I don’t know how to put it better than that at this current time.

*I hope no one minds but I have decided to stop bothering with, in my opinion, my belief, etc. As I feel it adds unnecessarily to the text, hope you don’t mind. I am thinking about putting a warning about such in my signature.

Awani
08-02-2016, 12:52 PM
A shorter version I have that I think you might agree with is: the illusion is real

:cool:

Loki Morningstar
08-02-2016, 01:17 PM
Very much so. :D ... If we can define what 'illusion' and 'real' is. ;)

Awani
08-02-2016, 01:28 PM
I think I just answered that. ;)

:cool:

Loki Morningstar
08-02-2016, 01:33 PM
I agree with the concept as I understand it. Although can it be communicated without circular reasoning? :confused:

How do we define 'real'? How do we define 'illusion'?

Perhaps a topic for another thread?

Awani
08-02-2016, 09:21 PM
There are some already (or start new one):


The Reality of Illusion (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4251-The-Reality-of-Illusion)

The Delusion of Reality (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4806-The-Delusion-of-Reality)

Otherland (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4540-Otherland-(the-Rift-is-coming))

Are we living a virtual reality? (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4660-Are-we-living-a-virtual-reality)

And a few more... (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/tags.php?tag=reality)

:cool:

Loki Morningstar
08-02-2016, 09:57 PM
Brilliant. Thanks Dev, really appreciate it. I'll have a good look through. :)

Ghislain
08-04-2016, 06:20 PM
Loki Morningstar

I have to say you stumped me with your reply on information theory as it includes the mathematics of probability not my favourite field and
probably one of my worst subjects, hence the former ;)

You are looking at the information as bits of data, I like that idea as I am looking for a possible data stream that could be responsible for
creating our reality. One possibility I like to ponder is that light is the data stream and thus nothing can travel faster than light as that would
mean applying data that has not yet arrived :)

To apply information theory one would have to know the type of information one is applying that theory to. If it was a series of bits of ones
and zeros then the answers would have been discovered by better scientists and mathematicians than me...I cannot speak for you as I do not
know your competence in mathematics..

Lets take an example of Binomial (B) Distribution...the rules where x~B(n,p)

1. You would need a given number of trials to produce “n”; as life appears to be an infinite course of events this would make “n” infinite.

2. There has to be two outcomes in a trial, eg win/lose; I cannot see a way of putting conscious experience into two boxes apart from
conscious or unconscious.

3. Trials must be independent, and as we know there are so many circular effects in life that one cannot say if trial one affected trial two or
even if trial ten had an effect on trial one...to eliminate that possibility we would have to agree that time is linear ;)

4. If we could put consciousness into two boxes then we would have to work out the probability (p) of a successful outcome of a trial; I have
no idea what we would be checking for in the outcome, for if we don’t know what consciousness is how can we classify something as
conscious or unconscious; is something that appears materially real conscious, e.g. a rock?

Do you think we may be trying to apply our mathematics to something that has no mathematical foundation in our frame of reality?

Perhaps the Prima Materia is one particle of a quantum pair and the creator of our reality has the other. He just manipulates the one and its
partner becomes whatever the creator decides via quantum entanglement ;). What is the medium for the transfer of data through quantum
entangled pairs?

Ghislain

Edit: Is it possible that consciousness can manipulate material at the quantum level...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc&ab_channel=BradCameron

Loki Morningstar
08-05-2016, 09:21 PM
Ghislain,

Thanks for your reply. I do not know as much about it as I would like either to be honest. I tend to look at things above my reach and they begin to make sense as I begin to put the other pieces together. I only use it for it’s seemingly good definition of ‘shanon’s bits’. And I really like the definition used in the video for information, “A perceived difference that can make a difference.”

"You are looking at the information as bits of data."

The reason that I look at the information as bits, is that at the current time, the only consciousnesses that we know of use synapsis or we could say ‘and gates’. Current thinking states they only have two modes, on and off.

I am not sure about your theory of light as a data stream. Perhaps you will have to explain what makes you think this is a possibility.

"To apply information theory one would have to know the type of information one is applying that theory to. If it was a series of bits of ones and zeros then the answers would have been discovered by better scientists and mathematicians than me...I cannot speak for you as I do not know your competence in mathematics."

As above, it is my understanding that all consciousness we are aware of operates on binary systems of some sort. And at the same time. It seems to say in the video that information theory can be used on information of varying qualities and values, such as a roll of a dice. Not as bits as in binary digits, but as shannon’s entropy. The video explains much better than I can.

"Do you think we may be trying to apply our mathematics to something that has no mathematical foundation in our frame of reality?"

I think it has mathematical foundation. What makes me wonder more is if it is based on mathematics, whether we truly have free will. Can our consciousness in its complexity somehow transcend the mathematics?

Ghislain
08-05-2016, 10:17 PM
I like to believe there is an answer to every question...I only hope that if some of my questions are answered I will have the capacity to understand them ;)

I don't believe we do have free will as everything is connected as one you have what is described as the butterfly effect, so what we perceive as free will is a sort of pseudo-free-will.

Ghislain

Loki Morningstar
08-06-2016, 02:08 PM
I like to think so to. I kind of hope that one day I will be at the forefront and be able to answer something no-one else has, as of yet. Big dream, quite unlikely, but we must dream eh? I think your dream is perhaps more realistic. Perhaps I should take that hope up myself.

As a little bit of extra information regarding the above. It seems that neurones are like AND gates, although rather than being triggered by a certain binary digit. It seems that they are triggered by certain voltages. It is to do with something called 'summation' (neurophysiology). Don't get me wrong. I do not pretend to understand it, although hope one day I will.

I am beginning to think that to fully understand all this I am going to have to learn a whole lot of physics.

I am not sure on the whole free will thing yet. I have some theories regarding it. With regards to it being our individuality/separateness, the things we cannot know, coupled with the entropy of data systems, the nature of the universe to become less and less ordered, that may give us the ability to have/seem to have free will. Although could completely agree that there is also a high chance that we may be perceiving automatons. Bit of a scary thought, although may be the unfortunate truth.

Loki Morningstar
08-06-2016, 03:25 PM
I would like to explain a bit more of my idea reagrding the way that entropy can cause a version of free will.

Over time data stored in a data collection device degrades, unless reinforced. As we are self aware beings, we have a perceptual feedback loop, which can also access our own memories. We have the ability to decide which parts we wish to reinforce, and which parts to allow to degrade.

As we have no prior knowledge of which parts will go together to form a useful pattern, until we reach some level of success, we cannot truly know which is the right choice. At which point we make our best guess thereby making a choice, free will.

The secondary aspect being that as we do not know which choice is going to be benefit us most, we could decide to reinforces a certain piece of information, or let it degrade. We may hope the reinforced information is the truth, or we could hope that during the degradation process we fall upon another piece of information that will fit in its place. Or that as it degrades, some of the random creativity formed by the degradation of the data could give us some more insight into the problem (dreams).

Thereby we have free choice because of what we do not know, rather than what we do.

If we all knew everything there was to know, we would all make the same choices.
(the one which would be best in our perception).

"We can never see past the choices we don't understand."