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Andro
04-08-2010, 11:39 PM
You will absolutely have to bypass the emotional bias (stemming from the traumatic historical context) to comprehend the following analogy:

It is well known that the ruling party in Germany during WW2 was not lacking in occult foundations.

One of their main slogans was:

One People - One State - One Leader

Or in German:

Ein Volk - Ein Reich - Ein Führer

It's impossible not to notice the striking similarity to:

One Matter - One Vessel - One Fire

The People/Volk are the Matter, the State/Reich is the Vessel and the Leader/Führer is the Fire.
________________________________________

Now before anyone gets offended, make sure you understand that I am talking exclusively about the Alchemical implications of this analogy, and NOT about the horrifying historical events generated by the dark and monstruous abuse/misuse of this occult power.

I do not, have not and will not support/endorse any ideology (political or otherwise) based on the aforementioned slogan and the movement that created it.
The aforementioned slogan is only to be taken as an Alchemical allegory and nothing more.

Joy
04-09-2010, 08:12 AM
With respect:

All did start deep down in the secrets of knowlege, with a plan for transformation.

Secrets can be used both ways, lost in the matter or diving up.

When I rest in my armchair, going the lunar way, moving in the 28th path of
the Qabalah, where Lucifer is the guide, I get an better understanding.

zoas23
07-23-2016, 07:02 PM
You will absolutely have to bypass the emotional bias (stemming from the traumatic historical context) to comprehend the following analogy:

It is well known that the ruling party in Germany during WW2 was not lacking in occult foundations.

One of their main slogans was:

One People - One State - One Leader

Or in German:

Ein Volk - Ein Reich - Ein Führer

It's impossible not to notice the striking similarity to:

One Matter - One Vessel - One Fire

The People/Volk are the Matter, the State/Reich is the Vessel and the Leader/Führer is the Fire.
________________________________________

Now before anyone gets offended, make sure you understand that I am talking exclusively about the Alchemical implications of this analogy, and NOT about the horrifying historical events generated by the dark and monstruous abuse/misuse of this occult power.

I do not, have not and will not support/endorse any ideology (political or otherwise) based on the aforementioned slogan and the movement that created it.
The aforementioned slogan is only to be taken as an Alchemical allegory and nothing more.

I didn't know if it was better to be off topic here or in the spagyrics thread!

The 1-1-1 of Hitler:

Most of the symbolism of Nazism was taken from late XIX manifestations of Rosicrucian orders (symbolism and not ideology).
No, I have not interviewed Hitler... but such thing is obvious for anyone who know them and sees the Nazi symbolism.

The triple 1 is related to the spelling of the Hebrew letter Aleph (A L P or 1 + 30 + 80 = 111).
The Aleph is used as the Swastika... The Swastika is also used as a sign of Isis (http://www.kaaos.org/faerie/lhr.html).

https://cdcruz.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/hexagramsigns.jpg
(See "Isis Mourning")

Isis is also in correspondence with the Aurora (Lucifer)
The 1-1-1 is also used to decipher the meaning of the Mountain of Abiegnus by three variations of the word that have 3 meanings... They are VERY related to the 3 ideas of the Nazi propaganda... and, if you take them out of context, they sound incredibly racist.

Last, but not least, all these symbols united (all of them related to the 111 or 1-1-1) represent the idea of a "triumph in the past", then a "defeat" and finally the return of a "triumph", but bigger.

Chasm
08-28-2016, 11:19 PM
I didn't know if it was better to be off topic here or in the spagyrics thread!

The 1-1-1 of Hitler:

Most of the symbolism of Nazism was taken from late XIX manifestations of Rosicrucian orders (symbolism and not ideology).
No, I have not interviewed Hitler... but such thing is obvious for anyone who know them and sees the Nazi symbolism.

The triple 1 is related to the spelling of the Hebrew letter Aleph (A L P or 1 + 30 + 80 = 111).
The Aleph is used as the Swastika... The Swastika is also used as a sign of Isis (http://www.kaaos.org/faerie/lhr.html).

https://cdcruz.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/hexagramsigns.jpg
(See "Isis Mourning")

Isis is also in correspondence with the Aurora (Lucifer)
The 1-1-1 is also used to decipher the meaning of the Mountain of Abiegnus by three variations of the word that have 3 meanings... They are VERY related to the 3 ideas of the Nazi propaganda... and, if you take them out of context, they sound incredibly racist.

Last, but not least, all these symbols united (all of them related to the 111 or 1-1-1) represent the idea of a "triumph in the past", then a "defeat" and finally the return of a "triumph", but bigger.
Great stuff here zoas23. I get it! Mt. Abiegnus represents our sublimed spirit doesn't it?

Last, but not least, all these symbols united (all of them related to the 111 or 1-1-1) represent the idea of a "triumph in the past", then a "defeat" and finally the return of a "triumph", but bigger.
Doesn't this sound like the life of Christ? What do you think? Isn't it all symbolic of the Work?

Chasm
08-28-2016, 11:30 PM
Great stuff here zoas23. I get it! Mt. Abiegnus represents our sublimed spirit doesn't it?

Doesn't this sound like the life of Christ? What do you think? Isn't it all symbolic of the Work?

By the way, I'm not in the least bit religious, that is , unless alchemy can be called a religion. Is not Isis Diana or the moon?
When Isis is mourning, are her tears not dripping down our flask...cleansing, calcining, opening, putrefying?
Manly P Hall teaches that these myriad ways of allegory and metaphorical correspondences are in fact what he calls Acroamatic Cyphers. Taken as such, I see nothing offensive, at all, in pointing out the correlation with the socialist party in the 30's-40's Germany.

zoas23
08-31-2016, 12:07 AM
Great stuff here zoas23. I get it! Mt. Abiegnus represents our sublimed spirit doesn't it?

Doesn't this sound like the life of Christ? What do you think? Isn't it all symbolic of the Work?

The Mount Abiegnus represents:
-The sublimated spirit of the Adept*.
-The meeting place of the Adepts.
-The work from beginning to end (i.e, not the final product, but the whole of the work)

*.Take this word as a GRADE... which is probably more sane than taking it as an ontological condition... And understand that the grades are symbolical (anyone who gives them an extraordinary importance is an ass -as to use a classical metaphor by Apuleius).

The word Abiegnus is also what Chasm mentioned as an "Acroamatic Cypher" which has 3 meanings:
- Jesus
- Son of God*
- The RACE of the Adepts and the promise to keep the RACE alive*

* This is a symbol... The grades can be 3, 7, 12, 33, etc... but the REAL ones are often 3 (even if these 3 real grades can be divided in several phases): son of the Earth, son of Man and son of God.

* This is another symbol, under the word Abiegnus the adepts promise to keep the RACE of the adepts alive... it is odd that the word "race" has been chosen, but it's the word that it is used. In a literal way, it simply means not letting the tradition die... there is absolutely nothing racist about it (i.e, the genetical race of the adept does not matter at all). However, if you take the idea out of context, it really sounds like something conceived by Hitler.

That's why I think that the origin of "one leader (Jesus), one state (sons of God) and one people (the race of the adepts)" comes from XIX century Rosicrucian orders, which were taken out of context.


As for the idea that it sounds like the life of Christ... yes, it sounds like the life of Christ under the symbolism of Osiris... and that's 100% intentional.

And the idea that it is symbolic of the work, that's intentional too... and very explicit.
The general idea is coded under the word LVX... As I've shown in the symbols of the previous post.
L = the mourning of Isis (the Prima Materia)
V = Typhon and Apophis (the secret fire)
X = Osiris slain and risen

BUT "LVX" (light) is also a key word for Lucifer / Venus / Isis / Diana... So she is the beginning, the middle and the end of the work.


By the way, I'm not in the least bit religious, that is , unless alchemy can be called a religion. Is not Isis Diana or the moon?
When Isis is mourning, are her tears not dripping down our flask...cleansing, calcining, opening, putrefying?

Yes!
The word "Religious" doesn't make much sense in this context... it's a symbol. Isis, Diana... a symbol. As Austin Spare used to say: "Believe symbolically or with caution".

The idea of Diana is perfect.
The idea of Isis has a triple correspondence: Stars, Venus and Moon (and sometimes Earth too).

... Other than that, it's obvious for me that the structure and symbols of the Nazi party were taken from XIX Rosicrucian Orders... but completely taken out of context and in a perverse way (i.e, something identical happened with the Ku Klux Klan and Freemasonry... it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the external symbols of the KKK come from Freemasonry... and yet the point of Freemasonry has nothing to do with lynching black persons and becoming a racist redneck).

Chasm
08-31-2016, 06:36 PM
... Other than that, it's obvious for me that the structure and symbols of the Nazi party were taken from XIX Rosicrucian Orders... but completely taken out of context and in a perverse way (i.e, something identical happened with the Ku Klux Klan and Freemasonry... it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the external symbols of the KKK come from Freemasonry... and yet the point of Freemasonry has nothing to do with lynching black persons and becoming a racist redneck).
I totally agree with you. I believe ALL of the old texts and scriptures are taken out of context. It's a shame!
I've read that even the high initiates of freemasonry are practicing out of context to the actual literature of their order.

I'm not German and I'm not white, however, I'm still sitting high on the fence where Hitler was concerned. I don't mean any offence to anyone but, I find it hard to believe the historical accounts of 1930's to the fall of the Third Reich Germany.
Contrary to what is taught in the texts, I believe that Germany, unbeknownst to the foreign populace, fought the good fight.

I believe they fought against a corrupt banking establishment that invaded countries and took control through usury.
Somewhere inside my thick head, I still believe that Hitler adopted the black star symbol situated within the white circle with red background ,to show those in the know, that he was initiated...aware. I believe that Churchill wanted him stopped at all cost not because he was dangerous per se, but because he was dangerous to the banking establishment.

I'm sure many will disagree with me. Unfortunately, the surviving populace who lived through the era, are all aged and or lost. I've had the privilege of speaking to a few of these people. The story they tell is vastly different from the history books.

Again no disrespect to anyone, but I think the symbolism speaks for itself.

zoas23
08-31-2016, 08:08 PM
I totally agree with you. I believe ALL of the old texts and scriptures are taken out of context. It's a shame!
I've read that even the high initiates of freemasonry are practicing out of context to the actual literature of their order.

The times of Elias Ashmole were probably better in this regard.
Though I don't think it makes any kind of sense to talk about "Freemasonry" as if it was ONE thing... since it became a name used to describe a wide diversity of practices... I like some of them and some others, I don't.


I'm not German and I'm not white, however, I'm still sitting high on the fence where Hitler was concerned. I don't mean any offence to anyone but, I find it hard to believe the historical accounts of 1930's to the fall of the Third Reich Germany.
Contrary to what is taught in the texts, I believe that Germany, unbeknownst to the foreign populace, fought the good fight.

Not really my favorite character... if someone needs to murder jews, gays, marxists, artists with avant-garde views, gypsies, masons... Then I can't call such thing a "good fight".

I like the artist Austin Spare and there's a nice story regarding him and Hitler. The German ambassador in England had purchased a portrait of Austin Spare and sent it to Hitler, then Hitler was impressed and wrote a letter to Austin Spare requesting him to travel to Germany and portrait him. Austin Spare sent a portrait of himself as Hitler and wrote a note on the painting: “Only from negations can I wholesomely conceive you. For I know of no courage sufficient to stomach your aspirations and ultimates. If you are superman, let me be for ever animal.”

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Tyk2yoqzVkE/TEWaDBGC-oI/AAAAAAAAA7w/_8a-250Akgw/s1600/z.jpg
"Self as Hitler" - Austin Osman Spare, 1936
(A copy that Spare did later, since the original was lost/destroyed)

Chasm
08-31-2016, 09:00 PM
Zoas23 wrote:
Not really my favorite character... if someone needs to murder jews, gays, marxists, artists with avant-garde views, gypsies, masons... Then I can't call such thing a "good fight"

I'd agree if satisfactory proof existed that all of these things were true. In fact, I held the same opinion as you, but opened up to considering an alternative view of history. It's not popular but that doesn't bother me. I know history is written by the victorious and until I'm ever privy to the actual historic data, then I'll continue to sit on the fence.


I like the artist Austin Spare and there's a nice story regarding him and Hitler. The German ambassador in England had purchased a portrait of Austin Spare and sent it to Hitler, then Hitler was impressed and wrote a letter to Austin Spare requesting him to travel to Germany and portrait him. Austin Spare sent a portrait of himself as Hitler and wrote a note on the painting: “Only from negations can I wholesomely conceive you. For I know of no courage sufficient to stomach your aspirations and ultimates. If you are superman, let me be for ever animal.”
I guess Austin Spare wasn't a fan of Hitler either, but he sure was a skilled artist:D

zoas23
09-01-2016, 04:06 AM
I'd agree if satisfactory proof existed that all of these things were true. In fact, I held the same opinion as you, but opened up to considering an alternative view of history. It's not popular but that doesn't bother me. I know history is written by the victorious and until I'm ever privy to the actual historic data, then I'll continue to sit on the fence.

I won't get into that debate or things won't end up well.
I knew very well one of the daughters of Himmler and his granddaughter... both of them extremely against any kind of racism or totalitarianism... and his daughter knew very well what his father did. I had the privilege of meeting them and talking to them (well, his granddaughter was one of my closest friends when I was a teen)... and I use the word "privilege" because with them I learnt that even a person who has been heavily indoctrinated to be racist and a potential murderer can end up being a non-racist person who rejects that indoctrination.

Anyway, I simply hope that the future will make you reconsider your views.


I guess Austin Spare wasn't a fan of Hitler either, but he sure was a skilled artist:D

Yeah, he didn't like Hitler at all... He was amazing as an artist.

Chasm
09-01-2016, 01:35 PM
I won't get into that debate or things won't end up well.

Anyway, I simply hope that the future will make you reconsider your views.
I'm hoping for that clarification as well. Because of my non-white status, I get a lot of flack for the position that I take. But truth be told, the elderly Germans I've spoken with were all very kind and knowledgable. Their didn't appear racist at all.

By the way, it is a privilege to meet a part of living history regardless of what their age was at the time. As you can testify, the opportunity has given you clarity. I'm just not there yet. But let's see what the future brings. Til then, que siga la conversacion. ;)

zoas23
09-01-2016, 09:25 PM
I won't get into that debate, Chasm, because things won't end up well...

You feel the need to explain again and again that you are "not white"... which is interesting, it means you are conscious that this is about races. I am unable to appreciate any kind of wisdom in a totalitarian regime that even decides which races have the right to exist.

My grandma had no teeth, a Nazi officer broke her teeth with a stick after shooting his father and mother in the head (during the invasion of Poland)... They were a normal anarchist family (something typical in the 1930's in Poland), my grandma was later sent to Argentina by a kind nun who lived in the house next door. The rest of her brothers were murdered by the Nazis. So I can't discuss if her teeth were broken with a stick or not... or if her parents and brothers were murdered.

Other than that, I've learnt a lot with her... she was a part of living history too, with a vast knowledge of how the anarchist collectives worked in the border between Poland and Russia. She kept on being an anarchist during the whole of her life. By 1945, the general Peron became the president of Argentina... a person who was very influenced by Italian fascism. My grandma had a small shop in her house (she sold vegetables). A few months after Peron became president, a group of inspectors came to her house and told her that she had to name her shop "President Peron" and they told her that they were going to paint the face of Peron in the front of her shop. She refused. She was told that her options were to obey or to have her shop destroyed. She said: "You can destroy my house, but I won't accept totalitarian rules". Thus her shop was destroyed... and she became a freelance photographer.

After the war finished, she found that nun again... and they became lifetime penpals.

I can't discuss if that history is true or not... because it's true.

My favorite song in homage to two anarchists who were also murdered by the hands of another type of totalitarianism:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp420cZZ0c4

Chasm
09-01-2016, 10:14 PM
I won't get into that debate, Chasm, because things won't end up well...

You feel the need to explain again and again that you are "not white"... which is interesting, it means you are conscious that this is about races. I am unable to appreciate any kind of wisdom in a totalitarian regime that even decides which races have the right to exist.

Other than that, I've learnt a lot with her... she was a part of living history too, with a vast knowledge of how the anarchist collectives worked in the border between Poland and Russia.
Zoas, I had already put this to bed. What I meant was other conversation.

I understand that it's a difficult topic and honestly, my heart goes out to ALL who've suffered through war.

In stating that I am non white, I had only hoped to convey that someone of colour could have an opposing opinion as to what was and is taught today as history. War is hell and crimes occur on both sides.

What I was especially interested in with your last post is the anarchist collectives that existed between Poland and Russia. Were there not Germans in that area as well? I have reason to believe that many Germans were horribly treated after the Great War. Information of what led to WW2 is scarce. But we can leave this alone. I will continue to study and who knows, perhaps I will learn more.

The story of your grandmother ended quite well :D
And the music was absolutely beautiful!

zoas23
09-02-2016, 08:23 AM
Zoas, I had already put this to bed. What I meant was other conversation.

I understand that it's a difficult topic and honestly, my heart goes out to ALL who've suffered through war.

In stating that I am non white, I had only hoped to convey that someone of colour could have an opposing opinion as to what was and is taught today as history. War is hell and crimes occur on both sides.

What I was especially interested in with your last post is the anarchist collectives that existed between Poland and Russia. Were there not Germans in that area as well? I have reason to believe that many Germans were horribly treated after the Great War. Information of what led to WW2 is scarce. But we can leave this alone. I will continue to study and who knows, perhaps I will learn more.

The story of your grandmother ended quite well :D
And the music was absolutely beautiful!

It's quite off topic, since I don't find much connection between the history of my grandma, the Eastern European anarchist movements and alchemy.

Anyway, from my mother's side, both my grandma and my grandfather lived in anarchist communities of Poland during their youth; they lived quite close actually, but in different towns (though they meet for the first time in Argentina, after their exile... my grandma came here with the invasion of Poland by the Nazis, my grandfather came earlier).

They were Germans, but lived in Poland. Their mother language was Pole, German, Ukranian and Russian... none of those languages was like a "second language" for them, so I assume this was typical for the whole zone (to speak the 4 languages).

I know more stories about my grandmother than I know about my grandfather, because he died when I was around 8 years old.
As for my grandmother and the anarchist movement in Eastern Europe: the Anarchist movement was quite big in her zone, they did not support murder, but they did support violent actions (specially setting factories on fire... factories that treated the workers as slaves... I know my grandmother did such thing many times). Other than that, they certainly lived in a very multicultural atmosphere (just have in mind that they spoke 4 languages).

As I've said, they were anarchists, so nationalities did not matter (they hated flags and anthems... this issue probably influenced me, since it's compulsory here in Argentina to make the "promise to the flag" when you are 10 and again when you are 15 -it is done at school, the promise involves stating that you are willing to die for the flag. I refused to make the "promise to the flag" when I was 10 and when I was 15 -I escaped from school both times).

What else to say? They didn't have the anti-mystic tone of a Bakunin at all... both of my grandparents were very interested in mysticism, though they despised organized Religion and disliked Religious buildings of any kind.

Anyway... I don't think this is related to alchemy or alchemical symbolism in politics.

No State - No Leader - No chosen people.

Chasm
09-05-2016, 06:30 AM
It's quite off topic, since I don't find much connection between the history of my grandma, the Eastern European anarchist movements and alchemy.


Anyway... I don't think this is related to alchemy or alchemical symbolism in politics.

No State - No Leader - No chosen people.
There is no direct connection. I wanted to know the political situation of those Germans who were separated from Germany in the regions that had its borders redrawn after the Great War.
Apparently Hitler invaded Poland to save these people from the mass mistreatment of the ruling government.
Anyways, I'm always looking for facts from this era. Its difficult to say the least.

Chasm
09-06-2016, 01:41 AM
I believe my exposure to this doc http://thegreateststorynevertold.tv/ is what kept me on the fence. I'm looking at verifying what I can from anywhere.
This doc doesn't make any alchemical connection to the Reich, but it acknowledges the occult links to the Thule society.
I made the alchemical link long ago. When I saw this doc, I felt aha!!! This is the stuff that was missing. It was all contrary to the historic account. It appears genuine.

Hitler and his alchemical symbols I believe stood for good. The alchemists spoke often about charity. Hitlers policies reenergized the German economy. The people loved him. People were employed, the economy was booming. Was it mass mesmerization?

I read an article somewhere of a British mission to destroy some Uboat base in Antarctica. A huge submarine was found to contain a large amount of Mercury. I know exotic technology was pursued by the Germans and I keep up on these things, but I know of no use at that time for such a large amount of Mercury.
I thought that perhaps it was for the production of gold. Who knows? Connecting the dots is riddled with redacting.
Why did Hitler adopt such visible symbolism?
The Knights Templar/ Rosicrucian Order was a fighting force. From what I know, they conducted themselves honourably and were very wealthy on account of that they possessed the Stone. The Templars were attacked by a pope ,(can't recall which), out of envy. Their Order was decimated. Curiously, the Swiss have adopted their symbol. The Swiss are also a neutral country.

Hitler appeared to envy the Templars. Did he really? If , and I don't know for certain if they were, but if the Templars were honourable in their business, would not Hitler have been the same? Considering that bad happens on both sides of war, and considering history is told by the victors, could Hitler have gotten a bad rap?

This more than anything, I long to explore. Did the Germans escape with the Stone and knowledge to transmute Mercury to gold? Did the defeated Germans mean to regroup?

Japan's symbol was the Rising Sun of the East. Together they looked to change the world.

The Rising Sun, The Swastika...certainly can seem coincidental, but who knows who rules behind the scenes.
What really is odd though is that we see the symbolism of the Reich as evil. But the truth is that these very symbolisms, denote positive traits.
Anyways I'm rambling. Have you seen this doc and what do you say about it.
im open to your honest opinion in pure exploration.

Ghislain
09-06-2016, 10:28 AM
The Thule Society was the forefather of those seeking a pure Aryan race, basically bigots and racists
in today’s standards. They had to swear to the best of their knowledge that there was no Jewish or
Black blood running through their lineage.

They believed Ultima Thule was a lost landmass located in the north somewhere near Greenland or
Iceland said to be the capital of a mythical land know as Hyperborea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperborea)

They adopted the Hindu symbol of the svastika a sacred symbol used by religions in India in
Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, only they reversed it.

Hitler’s regime did bring Germany out of recession, but you have to ask yourself how as you don’t
build great industry and infrastructure out of nothing; they were funded by outside influences for a
given purpose.

There has always been an Oligarchy present in the world and they were the ones who bankrolled
Hitler’s rise to power. The main objective was to put down the Russian Communist Movement. You
see the people had risen up and taken out their Oligarchic Overlords and if this turned out to be a
successful strategy other nations may decide to do the same; this could not happen and the
Oligarchs around the world came together to make sure it didn’t.

I believe the people loved Hitler at first, but then they realised the oppression they were living
under, neighbours were encouraged to report on neighbours of any descent, and punishments were
hard. It is said that the people walked around with a fake smile all day in case someone reported
them for not being at one with the regime.

Full control of the masses is a given if you want power. This was done through fear and propaganda
as it is still being done today.

Referring to the Mercury, could it be that Mercury was very heavy and a liquid, perhaps it was used
as a balance to stabilise the craft.

The Knights Templar was wealthy due to banking, not the possession of a stone. Their downfall
began when King Philip IV of France, who in the 1300’s was deeply in debt (especially to the
Templar), trumped up charges against the wealthy members of the Knights Templar, many of them
were arrested, tortured into giving false confessions, and then burned at the stake. Philip used his
influence with Pope Clement V to disband the Templars in 1312. It was their sudden disappearance
that gave rise to all the legends and speculation.

The Swiss were only allowed to be neutral due to the fact that the Oligarchy needed somewhere to
hide their spoils of war; a sort of super bank, IMO. Plus who would want to fight in such a
mountainous region.

I don’t think you need to be honourable in your dealings if war is your business and you are on the
winning side; you write the history. Everyone must be aware of the saying, “all is fair in love and
war”. Having said that I have heard stories that the Germans did make a record of goods they took
when occupying other countries and gave the people a chit so they could receive some
compensation, whether that would be fair compensation who can tell. This brings me to another
common saying, “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”, so one may start off with
honourable intensions, but may later become a tyrant.

I don’t believe the German’s escaped with the stone, I believe they are a very large country with a
suitably large population, good general resources in a centralised position, which all adds up to a
formidable power base ripe for the pickings. I am sure the German Oligarchs escaped from the war
with considerable wealth. We know the Americans were complicit in the escape of many of the
“war Criminals”.

All I can say about Japan was they were fanatics who looked upon their Emperor as some sort of god
and would die before dishonouring him. I also believe they were used as a tool in the same way as
Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, ISIS, Al Qaeda...etc. They had to bring America into the war and
in so doing were given free range to invade their outlying region.

All wars are fabricated to bring about a given outcome to a particular agenda created by an
international Oligarchy; we are just the pawns in their game, expendable pieces.

This Oligarchy is tied by blood and marriage rather than nationality, like a giant mafia.

I think the symbolism here is more coincidental than of purpose; we all like to exhibit the team
emblems and colours; how easily we are lead. ;)


Ghislain

Edit: In reading, another order came to light, which I wasn't aware of called The Knights Hospitaller (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller), an interesting read.
Note: All Templar possessions apart from the cash were handed over to the Knights Hospitaller. Their emblem is the
Maltese Cross.

zoas23
09-06-2016, 03:11 PM
I believe my exposure to this doc http://thegreateststorynevertold.tv/ is what kept me on the fence. I'm looking at verifying what I can from anywhere.
This doc doesn't make any alchemical connection to the Reich, but it acknowledges the occult links to the Thule society.
I made the alchemical link long ago. When I saw this doc, I felt aha!!! This is the stuff that was missing. It was all contrary to the historic account. It appears genuine.

I won't watch the doc because I may die of boredom. It's not really my favorite genre.
If I wanted to, I could perfectly write a 700 pages academic book on the occult roots of Nazism explaining where each idea came from.
You simply have to look at Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Lanz_von_Liebenfels), Rudolf von Sebottendorf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_von_Sebottendorf) and, specially, Guido von List (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_von_List).

The "Templar" thing came from Jörg Lanz... and it was simply his own idiosyncratic version of the rite of Strict Observance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_Strict_Observance) with an anti-semitic twist... Hitler didn't take much from Lanz... and the rite of Strict Observance didn't really have anything truly "Templar" in it (as it was demonstrated in the Convent of Wilhelmsbad in 1782).

The greatest influence came from Guido von List, who mostly took ideas from Helena Blavatsky (who was already a bit absurd) and arrived to laughable visions about the Aryan race... which he mixed with English Rosicrucian sources that he took in a very literal way (specially the book "the forthcoming race"* of Edward Bulwer-Lytton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bulwer-Lytton)) and some symbolism that came from the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (Specifically, its Zelator grade)... and making the effort of replacing Qabalah with his own invented system of Runes.

*The Nazi fascination with "The Forthcoming Race" arrived to levels of amazing idiocy... very much as if someone decided to read Peter Pan and wanted to travel to Neverland, believing that if the book describes it, then it has to literally exist somewhere.

I don't really see any worth in the occult roots of Nazism.

Chasm
09-06-2016, 11:46 PM
I won't watch the doc because I may die of boredom. It's not really my favorite genre.
That's too bad Zoas, you sound very knowledgeable. It's ok though, you've given me some tidbits to look into.

If I wanted to, I could perfectly write a 700 pages academic book on the occult roots of Nazism explaining where each idea came from.
You simply have to look at Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Lanz_von_Liebenfels), Rudolf von Sebottendorf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_von_Sebottendorf) and, specially, Guido von List (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_von_List).
I will follow the breadcrumbs.

The "Templar" thing came from Jörg Lanz... and it was simply his own idiosyncratic version of the rite of Strict Observance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_Strict_Observance) with an anti-semitic twist... Hitler didn't take much from Lanz... and the rite of Strict Observance didn't really have anything truly "Templar" in it (as it was demonstrated in the Convent of Wilhelmsbad in 1782).
So you see, this is the stuff I need to learn.

The greatest influence came from Guido von List, who mostly took ideas from Helena Blavatsky (who was already a bit absurd) and arrived to laughable visions about the Aryan race... which he mixed with English Rosicrucian sources that he took in a very literal way (specially the book "the forthcoming race"* of Edward Bulwer-Lytton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bulwer-Lytton)) and some symbolism that came from the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (Specifically, its Zelator grade)... and making the effort of replacing Qabalah with his own invented system of Runes.
I possess the Secret Doctrine and Isis Unveiled. Bulwer-Lytton and his ,The Coming Race, I am familiar with. William Colville made a mockery of Blavatsky in his book "Dashed Against the Rock"


*The Nazi fascination with "The Forthcoming Race" arrived to levels of amazing idiocy... very much as if someone decided to read Peter Pan and wanted to travel to Neverland, believing that if the book describes it, then it has to literally exist somewhere.

I don't really see any worth in the occult roots of Nazism.
I like to know the causes of things Zoas. Even in politics. The "Nazis" were a game changing force that had the world rally against them. The world we know today is rife with all types of crimes, yet there hasn't been a major conflict in some time.
Also, there isn't an army dressed in alchemic symbolism standing up to the IMF either.
Still, I wonder and this fence hurts my ass!;)

Awani
09-07-2016, 01:42 AM
I find it hard to believe the historical accounts of 1930's to the fall of the Third Reich Germany.
Contrary to what is taught in the texts, I believe that Germany, unbeknownst to the foreign populace, fought the good fight.

In a sense you are correct. The official accounts of WWII is totally biased and incorrect.

Hitler was working (knowingly or unknowingly, don't matter) for rich American corporations, many run by Jews (ironically).

However the documentary you link to is obvious neo-Nazi propaganda and I wouldn't give it a time of day. What we have here (in regards to WWII and its players) are a bunch of immature low-lives that used millions of people as collateral in order to make a buck or two. Fuck those rich Jews, their Nazi allies and all other "sides" of the war. They are all guilty in some degree, and their money making schemes have just gone from killing jews, to killing Nazis, to killing communists, to killing terrorists (arabs)... it's all the same. Back in Rome it was all about killing Germans.


Hitler and his alchemical symbols I believe stood for good.

Hitler/Nazis did use a lot of symbolism that is interesting and has merit (on their own)... but in regards to Hitler/Nazis themselves no more merit than if Britney Spears puts a painting of Hermes himself on the cover of her next album. Doesn't make her some alchemical magus. Just makes her a pop whore with good taste in covers. That's it.

Why don't I go out and rape some little girl, and afterwards I murder her and carve a peace symbol into her face. Yes, that makes all the difference. Namaste.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/11186956_1600377950209256_119257668_n_zpshkmo2f83. jpg

:cool:

zoas23
09-07-2016, 02:34 AM
That's too bad Zoas, you sound very knowledgeable. It's ok though, you've given me some tidbits to look into.

I am an accidental expert!

I have many fetishes, fascinations... one of them is neo-platonism, another one is academic essays on the occult (though ONLY when they are related to any form of neo-platonism)... and then the genealogy of some Orders.

The issue is that in the contemporary academic literature on neo-platonism & hermeticism written in Spanish, there is a HUGE sector devoted to writing crypto-nazi literature... financed by one of the richest persons of the world (not a famous name internationally, just another nobody who is in the top 2% of the richest persons).

The "nazification" of the academic literature on neo-platonism (only in Spanish), which begun some 15 years ago, made me investigate their sources... and I am good with genealogies. So I ended up knowing a lot on the occult movements that were the forerunners of Nazism, even if it's a subject that it's not really interesting for me.

If you want my opinion, there is nothing of worth there... They were simply persons with a collapsed Ego who invented fairy tales as a way to justify some absurd megalomaniac ideas... in a huge project of "alternative anthropology" that involved re-writing the history of mankind, though based on absolute nonsense.

Chasm
09-07-2016, 01:22 PM
I am an accidental expert!
No doubt!

I have many fetishes, fascinations... one of them is neo-platonism, another one is academic essays on the occult (though ONLY when they are related to any form of neo-platonism)... and then the genealogy of some Orders.
It's intriguing how we each gravitate towards that which fascinates.


The issue is that in the contemporary academic literature on neo-platonism & hermeticism written in Spanish, there is a HUGE sector devoted to writing crypto-nazi literature... financed by one of the richest persons of the world (not a famous name internationally, just another nobody who is in the top 2% of the richest persons).For me, this is a puzzle to be solved. Why only in Spanish. Why is Spain and Argentina so isolated in a way.


The "nazification" of the academic literature on neo-platonism (only in Spanish), which begun some 15 years ago, made me investigate their sources... and I am good with genealogies. So I ended up knowing a lot on the occult movements that were the forerunners of Nazism, even if it's a subject that it's not really interesting for me.
When we follow the crumbs, who knows where it leads Zoas. Something is always gained, nonetheless.


If you want my opinion, there is nothing of worth there... They were simply persons with a collapsed Ego who invented fairy tales as a way to justify some absurd megalomaniac ideas... in a huge project of "alternative anthropology" that involved re-writing the history of mankind, though based on absolute nonsense.
This could be true. It may also be partially true and simply not correctly understood.

I believe that knowledge and the power of the stone drives major world events and that it's only those at the highest levels, who I believe are very few, that are cognizant of this.
Scripture tells us that a bearer of the stone can rule a nation. How one rules I feel is the cause of turmoil. In any case, as I weave through historic events, I always look to see if there's an alchemical link.
I'm convinced of Hitlers link. Question for me is, what side was he on?

zoas23
09-07-2016, 04:18 PM
No doubt!
It's intriguing how we each gravitate towards that which fascinates.
For me, this is a puzzle to be solved. Why only in Spanish. Why is Spain and Argentina so isolated in a way.

Yes, we all gravitate around our fetishes. In my own case, this is because I like philosophy (in its more "profane" definition)... and because I know that the Hermetic Tradition has always been linked to philosophy.
i.e, a random example that came to my mind: Kircher and Leibniz were friends and heavily influenced each other... but nowadays Leibniz is "philosophy" and Kircher is "occult". And I KNOW that we must study the works of both if we want the whole picture.

In the same way that nowadays it's easy to find "Gnostics" who have never touched a book by Plato or Plotinus... and that's absurd to me.

I did not say that the problem of the "nazification" of the academic literature on Hermeticism was specific of Argentina and Spain... but your assumption is 100% right.
The reasons for this issue are very simple: a billionaire man with a bored wife who tried to get into the weird world of very modern forms of "sex magic" (Aleister Crowley style), only to find that it was something very silly... And then she got in touch with a specific Lodge that has these Nazi views and a "traditionalist" (in the bad sense of the word) approach... and her husband became the infinite source of cash to promote some authors as to give her silly wife a good position in the Lodge where they participate (they sometimes let her write short prologues)... and with tons of cash, they created a very good marketing campaign and managed to invade the market.

And that's the whole of the "secret".

As for the "occult" ideas that preceded Nazism, the ideas that existed in the context of Nazism and the new neo-nazi occult writers that began to write after WWII... I see no worth in them. It is not only that I do not like their ideology, but mostly that their claims are absolute nonsense and always bizarre in the worst sense of the word.

The neo-nazis have gone so far into the realm of absurdity and it's hard not to laugh at them. Two early and classical examples can be Miguel Serrano (from Chile) and Nimrod de Rosario (from Argentina).
The two of them got into their own version of "esoteric nazism" and travelled to the South Pole to find Hitler, but they did not find him.

Other than that, Serrano wanted to be popular in Chile, where most of the population is Mapuche (the main aboriginal culture of Chile):

http://img.soy-chile.cl/Fotos/2014/03/22/file_20140322182228.JPG

... and ended up stating that the Mapuches are "Aryans" (his incredibly weird justification involves some UFOs).

On the other hand, Nimrod was the son of a mixed couple: a white woman and an Argentinean aborigen... So when her mother and him went neo-Nazi and Nimrod started to write as a "prophet", he declared that his TRUE biological father was an "Aryan alien that came in a UFO and had sex with his mother"...

http://www.luisfelipemoyano.com/nimrod%20de%20rosario.jpg

... Which is quite strange, because the Alien Aryan Nimrod looks just like an average South American aborigine.

O.K... these two examples are post-nazism... but if you dig into the roots of Nazism, you'll end up finding the same type of nonsense.

For me, it's just a mix of tragedy and comedy.

Awani
09-07-2016, 06:18 PM
I'm convinced of Hitlers link. Question for me is, what side was he on?


In a sense you are correct. The official accounts of WWII is totally biased and incorrect.

Hitler was working (knowingly or unknowingly, don't matter) for rich American corporations, many run by Jews (ironically).

However the documentary you link to is obvious neo-Nazi propaganda and I wouldn't give it a time of day. What we have here (in regards to WWII and its players) are a bunch of immature low-lives that used millions of people as collateral in order to make a buck or two. Fuck those rich Jews, their Nazi allies and all other "sides" of the war. They are all guilty in some degree, and their money making schemes have just gone from killing jews, to killing Nazis, to killing communists, to killing terrorists (arabs)... it's all the same. Back in Rome it was all about killing Germans.


Hitler and his alchemical symbols I believe stood for good.

Hitler/Nazis did use a lot of symbolism that is interesting and has merit (on their own)... but in regards to Hitler/Nazis themselves no more merit than if Britney Spears puts a painting of Hermes himself on the cover of her next album. Doesn't make her some alchemical magus. Just makes her a pop whore with good taste in covers. That's it.

Why don't I go out and rape some little girl, and afterwards I murder her and carve a peace symbol into her face. Yes, that makes all the difference. Namaste.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/11186956_1600377950209256_119257668_n_zpshkmo2f83. jpg

:cool:

As for rulers having the Stone: they don't. IMO.

:cool:

Chasm
09-07-2016, 08:39 PM
As for rulers having the Stone: they don't. IMO.

:cool:
I don't mean the visual ones. I'm of the opinion that some one or two powerful families possess it that may be at odds with one another; Like "Star Wars"...well, kind of.
Two polar opposite mentalities. One that wants to rule and oppress. The other that wants to see the profane grow up and take responsibility for the decisions made in their lives.

I take the Hermetic philosophy quite seriously. I always seem to find the wisdom in the words. "As above, so below for the attainment of the one thing" I look at this phrase in many ways. I look at humanity as the vile chaotic matter that through time, polarizes, separating into the enlightened and the ignorant.
Coction, (time), causes the ignorant to be lifted up to the enlightened sphere.
It's the same thing within our flasks.
I'm just curious to know if this could actually be the case and who it may be, that represents these polarities...that is to say, who stands at the polar axis of humanity.
Yes, yes, I've put everything into a flask, but aren't all of our religious texts telling us the same thing?

Why don't I go out and rape some little girl, and afterwards I murder her and carve a peace symbol into her face. Yes, that makes all the difference. Namaste.

I get what you're saying here....totally! But in reference to Hitler, was he a some type of magician to have so many stand with him against the world? I don't think, ( I really don't know enough), he and a few followers could have done what they did without mass collective effort.
It doesn't look like he wore his symbols falsely. I'm not saying he was Sainted, I'm saying that he had the British Army cornered at Dunkirk and he let them go. Makes no sense for a madman with competent generals following him.
Mind you, little unbiased information exists. Much of what we hear is spin and propaganda. I just want truth.
Maybe you're right and he was just another puppet; but whose puppet was he?
As common people, we're not privy to what matters, only what they want us to know.
Who knows?
I wish somehow I could put all the known facts into a flask and separate the bullshit!

Chasm
09-07-2016, 09:06 PM
Yes, we all gravitate around our fetishes. In my own case, this is because I like philosophy (in its more "profane" definition)... and because I know that the Hermetic Tradition has always been linked to philosophy.
i.e, a random example that came to my mind: Kircher and Leibniz were friends and heavily influenced each other... but nowadays Leibniz is "philosophy" and Kircher is "occult". And I KNOW that we must study the works of both if we want the whole picture.Kircher and Leibniz are two greats. Both had keen minds. Leibniz died too young before he was able to formulate his theories which were nurturing a wholistic view of nature within a scientific foundation.


In the same way that nowadays it's easy to find "Gnostics" who have never touched a book by Plato or Plotinus... and that's absurd to me.
It's insane! That's why I dive into first causes. Political spin just makes one dizzy.
The oldest books are generally the best. The newer books are written by dizzy authors.;)


I did not say that the problem of the "nazification" of the academic literature on Hermeticism was specific of Argentina and Spain... but your assumption is 100% right.
The reasons for this issue are very simple: a billionaire man with a bored wife who tried to get into the weird world of very modern forms of "sex magic" (Aleister Crowley style), only to find that it was something very silly... And then she got in touch with a specific Lodge that has these Nazi views and a "traditionalist" (in the bad sense of the word) approach... and her husband became the infinite source of cash to promote some authors as to give her silly wife a good position in the Lodge where they participate (they sometimes let her write short prologues)... and with tons of cash, they created a very good marketing campaign and managed to invade the market.
I haven't finished following the crumbs. I take on too much at once. Seriously, I get paranoid as I become more insightful.
This billionaire, what's his background?


And that's the whole of the "secret".
Yet I'm just not satisfied, but I hope to be one day.


As for the "occult" ideas that preceded Nazism, the ideas that existed in the context of Nazism and the new neo-nazi occult writers that began to write after WWII... I see no worth in them. It is not only that I do not like their ideology, but mostly that their claims are absolute nonsense and always bizarre in the worst sense of the word.
The Neo nuts I can totally agree with. But the occult ideas came from somewhere where perhaps a master was pulling the strings of his minions. I don't know. But I do most certainly wish to know.

The neo-nazis have gone so far into the realm of absurdity and it's hard not to laugh at them. Two early and classical examples can be Miguel Serrano (from Chile) and Nimrod de Rosario (from Argentina).
Truer words were never spoken ;)

The two of them got into their own version of "esoteric nazism" and travelled to the South Pole to find Hitler, but they did not find him.
Now if they'd have found that submarine full of common Mercury, I'd be piqued with curiosity.


For me, it's just a mix of tragedy and comedy.
Wasn't it Shakespeare who said that "all the world is a stage".
Funny how he built his Globe Theater in the form of a flask.
As Flammel says, we should look to the buildings to learn of history, not the written texts.
Somehow, I feel alchemy is behind ALL!

zoas23
09-08-2016, 06:23 AM
Kircher and Leibniz are two greats. Both had keen minds. Leibniz died too young before he was able to formulate his theories which were nurturing a wholistic view of nature within a scientific foundation.

I am very interested in their experiments with LANGUAGE and LOGIC, following the ideas of Llull.
The two of them sometimes made mistakes (the book by Leibniz on the Chinese language is laughable), but I truly admire them.


It's insane! That's why I dive into first causes. Political spin just makes one dizzy.
The oldest books are generally the best. The newer books are written by dizzy authors.;)

I don't reject modern authors (I am obsessed with the Tractatus of Wittgenstein), but it's good to know the genealogy of the ideas we like.



I haven't finished following the crumbs. I take on too much at once. Seriously, I get paranoid as I become more insightful.
This billionaire, what's his background?

I've said too much about the billionaire.
In economics he's similar to, say, Donald Trump or any average billionaire.
Culturally... he is a very well read man with an extraordinary passion for the avant-garde (maybe in the style of Saatchi) and certainly NOT a Nazi... and probably not interested in Hermeticism at all.
The one with that weird fetish is his wife, not him. I guess he simply makes his wife happy by financing her interests.
That's all I can say, since being more explicit may end up creating a problem for a third person who is very close to me.



Wasn't it Shakespeare who said that "all the world is a stage".
Funny how he built his Globe Theater in the form of a flask.
As Flammel says, we should look to the buildings to learn of history, not the written texts.
Somehow, I feel alchemy is behind ALL!

You made me think of something which is very relevant to this thread.
1. I will never like Hitler.
2. I think his "alchemical influence" is by far smaller than you assume (I think he was more influenced by "occultism" rather than "alchemy").
3. But the important thing for me is that some ideas are MARVELOUS (for me) when they remain as myths, allegories... and TERRIBLE when they are taken to a literal and political realm.

This is somehow a rant, but you'll follow the idea:
One of the worst cultural crimes of Hitler (though Goebbels was more responsible than Hitler) was completely destroying the German Film Industry.
You know why *we* watch films made in hollywood? Because of Hitler!
The main film industry before 1933 was the German film industry and it was incredibly interesting... it was absolutely experimental and, at the same time, "commercial" (i.e, it had profits)

Hitler and Goebbels in 1933 destroyed such industry when they decided that movies were going to be on of their main propaganda tools... and started to control the scripts as to make them fit their ideals (the resulting films were even boring for the most enthusiast Nazis and the German film industry collapsed... and was replaced by Hollywood).

My favorite silent movie is "Metropolis" by Fritz Lang*... a perfect Gnostic Allegory.
(Of course that "Maria" is Mary Magdalene and Sophia... and the whole myth of the fall of Sophia and her redemption is in the movie).
The movie is PERFECT if you understand the Gnostic allegory (which is quite explicit if you know a thing or two about classical Gnosticism).

BUT if you watch it as a "political film", then I must say that I hate its political message (and it is my favorite silent film).

Some ideas do not work, in my opinion, very well when they descend from their allegorical realm to a literal and political realm.

*If someone says that he has not watched "Metropolis" by Fritz Lang, but the Japanese Anime and asks if it's the same thing, I will personally behead that person (and that's an alchemical symbolism too, isn't it? :p )

Chasm
09-08-2016, 01:12 PM
I am very interested in their experiments with LANGUAGE and LOGIC, following the ideas of Llull.
The two of them sometimes made mistakes (the book by Leibniz on the Chinese language is laughable), but I truly admire them.
I had no idea about a book on the Chinese language. But there is some interesting references to his work in The Textbook on Harmonics, by Hans Kayser. I possess this book translated from German to English by Ariel and Jocelyn Godwin.
It is my bible. I'm a language buff as well and possess the book The Archeometer, by Yves Saint Alveydre. it's an incomplete work but very informative. After conversing with you just briefly, I can see that the book is very master race like, with Wotan being the master language. I guess I can thank you for the new insight.


I don't reject modern authors (I am obsessed with the Tractatus of Wittgenstein), but it's good to know the genealogy of the ideas we like.
You totally get my point.


I've said too much about the billionaire.
In economics he's similar to, say, Donald Trump or any average billionaire.
Culturally... he is a very well read man with an extraordinary passion for the avant-garde (maybe in the style of Saatchi) and certainly NOT a Nazi... and probably not interested in Hermeticism at all.
The one with that weird fetish is his wife, not him. I guess he simply makes his wife happy by financing her interests.
That's all I can say, since being more explicit may end up creating a problem for a third person who is very close to me.
It's all forgotten, rather unimportant really. I'm not interested if there's no Hermetic link.


You made me think of something which is very relevant to this thread.
1. I will never like Hitler.
2. I think his "alchemical influence" is by far smaller than you assume (I think he was more influenced by "occultism" rather than "alchemy").
3. But the important thing for me is that some ideas are MARVELOUS (for me) when they remain as myths, allegories... and TERRIBLE when they are taken to a literal and political realm.
To be honest, my investigations began about 25 years ago with free energy. In descending into the rabbit hole, things I wasn't even interested in, like Hitler, came into the picture. The link was the German "occult" technology.
But this recent thing with alchemy, well, this has sort of swept me away. It is the mean path so to speak through all that remains hidden. It is a light that illuminates the darkness of ignorance. (For me anyways),.


This is somehow a rant, but you'll follow the idea:
One of the worst cultural crimes of Hitler (though Goebbels was more responsible than Hitler) was completely destroying the German Film Industry.
You know why *we* watch films made in hollywood? Because of Hitler!
The main film industry before 1933 was the German film industry and it was incredibly interesting... it was absolutely experimental and, at the same time, "commercial" (i.e, it had profits)

Hitler and Goebbels in 1933 destroyed such industry when they decided that movies were going to be on of their main propaganda tools... and started to control the scripts as to make them fit their ideals (the resulting films were even boring for the most enthusiast Nazis and the German film industry collapsed... and was replaced by Hollywood).
Youre absolutely correct! Berlin had the whole tv broadcasting thing under lock. They were the ones to first air the olympics.
If I recall correctly, Berlin had degraded into a cesspool of a fetish haven after the Great War. A lot of seedy films were being made and Hilter and Goebbels had issue with this. It wasn't the stuff of the master race.....
So he cleaned it up by having his people inject his moral ethos into the new German films. Still, I haven't looked deeply into this. Hitler really is an accidental discovery to me.

My favorite silent movie is "Metropolis" by Fritz Lang*... a perfect Gnostic Allegory.
(Of course that "Maria" is Mary Magdalene and Sophia... and the whole myth of the fall of Sophia and her redemption is in the movie).
The movie is PERFECT if you understand the Gnostic allegory (which is quite explicit if you know a thing or two about classical Gnosticism).

BUT if you watch it as a "political film", then I must say that I hate its political message (and it is my favorite silent film).

Some ideas do not work, in my opinion, very well when they descend from their allegorical realm to a literal and political realm.

*If someone says that he has not watched "Metropolis" by Fritz Lang, but the Japanese Anime and asks if it's the same thing, I will personally behead that person (and that's an alchemical symbolism too, isn't it? :p )

I will try and find it so that I can watch it. Sounds interesting for certain.

Awani
09-09-2016, 01:57 AM
One of the worst cultural crimes of Hitler (though Goebbels was more responsible than Hitler) was completely destroying the German Film Industry.
You know why *we* watch films made in hollywood? Because of Hitler!

This is a very good point. Some of my all time favorite films are M and Nosferatu... but the list is long when it comes to the German contribution to the art of film. Basically instead of going to film school watch Nosferatu a few times. Everything you need to know is there.

But it is more than that... the great German heritage has been tainted by Hitler... music, books, painters...mention Germany to someone and they are more prone to conjure up Hitler than Beethoven for instance.

And never forget that Hitler tried to copy the Roman Empire, which was ironically destroyed by the Germans (of old).

Germany has given so much, and it is a shame that all it will be remembered for is some little puppet working for the relatives of George Bush.

---------------------------------------------------------

Chasm:

You can find lots of occult symbolism and inspiration in the Nazi culture... but that is all it ever was. The closest the Nazi's ever got to something of spiritual value, or some Stone, was in Indiana Jones.

Famous philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein#Jewish_background_and_Hitler) went to the same school as Hitler, and this is what he thought:


Language as a Source of Philosophical Confusion

While Wittgenstein repeats that ordinary language is fine as it is, he also identifies the misuse of that language as the source of much philosophical confusion. Language is suited to its everyday business of facilitating communication between people. Philosophers make the mistake of abstracting language from its ordinary contexts to understand the essences of things. For example, when people talk about knowing things, in most contexts it is perfectly obvious what they mean. But despite the fact that we can talk about what we know without complication, we are puzzled when confronted by a question like, what is knowledge? All of a sudden, we are faced with an abstract concept, “knowledge,” divorced from the contexts in which this concept is used. When philosophers get confused over the question of what knowledge is, they are not confused because the essence of knowledge is difficult to identify. Rather, they are confused because they have abstracted a word from the contexts in which it has a function and find that, outside these contexts, the word loses its meaning. If philosophers were careful about how they use language, Wittgenstein believes, philosophical confusion would cease to exist. - source (http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/wittgenstein/themes.html)

So Hitler's fellow student clearly answer your own questions about the meaning of Nazi symbolisms.

:cool:

Chasm
09-09-2016, 04:13 AM
This is a very good point. Some of my all time favorite films are M and Nosferatu... but the list is long when it comes to the German contribution to the art of film. Basically instead of going to film school watch Nosferatu a few times. Everything you need to know is there.
The title is familiar to me, I'm sure I saw it, but long before I began my journey. I will definitely watch it again with your comments in mind.

But it is more than that... the great German heritage has been tainted by Hitler... music, books, painters...mention Germany to someone and they are more prone to conjure up Hitler than Beethoven for instance.
Question for me is, is that a good thing? Hitler didn't start WW1. More truths are emerging about the cause of that war which continued into WW2. I don't want to pass judgement without facts. War is hell. The Russians slaughtered many. There's more to this story I'm sure. Something deeper that has been covered up. By the way, aren't those Germans just clever people? They have some of the best books.


And never forget that Hitler tried to copy the Roman Empire, which was ironically destroyed by the Germans (of old).
This is true, The Romans weren't perfect by far, but they're an important part of the Wests evolution.


Germany has given so much, and it is a shame that all it will be remembered for is some little puppet working for the relatives of George Bush.
Yeah, this part gets me every time. It just fans the flames. Wasn't just the Bush family either. Hitler dared to step out of the status quo. This is clear. That made him a major threat. What did he threaten so badly that the allies had to torch major cities when the fight was already over? Why crush the will of the people?


---------------------------------------------------------


Chasm:

You can find lots of occult symbolism and inspiration in the Nazi culture... but that is all it ever was. The closest the Nazi's ever got to something of spiritual value, or some Stone, was in Indiana Jones.
;) almost forgot about that. It was before my journey began as well.


So Hitler's fellow student clearly answer your own questions about the meaning of Nazi symbolisms.
:cool:
Wittgenstein is correct. It's not just the alchemical philosophers, but the early theologians as well. Sendivogious said as much.
Like I said, I'm on the fence about Hitler. There's just too much propaganda and much that doesn't add up. I never lived through the time and I don't like hate, so I won't hate the Germans. Hitler alone couldn't mobilize all of Germany without a willing populace.
*Note: I am not and will not ever condone the genocide of any people. Free speech must be free and truth must be told. The state keeps its minions bathed in lies.

Chasm

zoas23
09-09-2016, 08:58 AM
I had no idea about a book on the Chinese language. But there is some interesting references to his work in The Textbook on Harmonics, by Hans Kayser. I possess this book translated from German to English by Ariel and Jocelyn Godwin.
It is my bible. I'm a language buff as well and possess the book The Archeometer, by Yves Saint Alveydre. it's an incomplete work but very informative. After conversing with you just briefly, I can see that the book is very master race like, with Wotan being the master language. I guess I can thank you for the new insight.

Kircher and Leibniz were very interested in language and one of their fascinations was the iconographic alphabets. The BIG goal for them was to create an universal written language (or iconographic alphabet) that could be "read" by anyone regardless of their language. Leibniz couldn't complete this task, the closer he got was a book on the Chinese language (which he completely misunderstood)... whilst Kircher tried many ways, but none of them truly worked (he tried to decipher the Egyptian language in his Oedipus Aegyptiacus... and then he tried a different way, by patiently creating a set of dictionaries in which each word was numbered... so his idea was to write something like "23450 451 5678 9856 2383" and then each person would be able to pick the dictionary that had the correspondences in his mother language and replace the numbers with words again, but the experiment gave him worst results than google translate).

Gonna check the book on harmonics you mention, I don't know it, but I've been recently reading a lot on music and hermeticism.

As for the Archeometer... it's OK, but hardly my favorite book.

I don't get what you mean with the "master race of books".


Youre absolutely correct! Berlin had the whole tv broadcasting thing under lock. They were the ones to first air the olympics.
If I recall correctly, Berlin had degraded into a cesspool of a fetish haven after the Great War. A lot of seedy films were being made and Hilter and Goebbels had issue with this. It wasn't the stuff of the master race.....
So he cleaned it up by having his people inject his moral ethos into the new German films. Still, I haven't looked deeply into this. Hitler really is an accidental discovery to me.

Well... it's not really like that.
Germany had, before 1933, the biggest and BEST film industry of the whole world.
The typical films were not "seedy" at all... neither "indecent". They were deep and very claustrophobic... and, quite often, quite "dark" and obscure. Besides from being also filled with esoteric allegories.

When Hitler came into power, he wanted to make exclusively "Nazi propaganda films" (direct propaganda). Goebbels deeply disagreed with Hitler on this issue and thought that "direct propaganda" was a bad idea for films... and he became, as Minister of Propaganda, the official censor of all the scripts. So, finally, it was only possible to film what Goebbels wanted.
Unlike Hitler, Goebbels thought that it was a good idea to make "indirect propaganda films"... so under his claw, a new genre was invented, which is often informally called "mountain films": films where a group of males had some sort of adventure at a mountain and confronted a problem, but together they would find a solution to the problem and become "heroes". In most cases they were escapist films without any depth and designed to keep the audience "happy". And then a second genre that became important was comedy, but they were really bad comedies too.

The films were SO BAD that Goebbels forbid film criticism or any kind of "review" of the films in any media (newspapers, magazines, etc)... As I've said, even the most rabid Nazis thought that these films were completely idiotic. That's how the German Film Industry was destroyed.

Hitler was not in love with the idea of Goebbels, but he trusted him... He made an exception with "The Triumph of the Will" (by Leni Riefenstahl), which was certainly a "direct propaganda" film... but it was a rare case (there are a few others "direct propaganda films", but the immense majority of films followed the idea of Goebbels, "indirect propaganda").

Anyway... the morale of the story is: Who is to blame for the success of Hollywood??? Hitler and Goebbels!!!!


I will try and find it so that I can watch it. Sounds interesting for certain.

Yeah... a life without watching "Metropolis" at least once is not worth living!!!


This is a very good point. Some of my all time favorite films are M and Nosferatu... but the list is long when it comes to the German contribution to the art of film. Basically instead of going to film school watch Nosferatu a few times. Everything you need to know is there.

But it is more than that... the great German heritage has been tainted by Hitler... music, books, painters...mention Germany to someone and they are more prone to conjure up Hitler than Beethoven for instance.

And never forget that Hitler tried to copy the Roman Empire, which was ironically destroyed by the Germans (of old).

Germany has given so much, and it is a shame that all it will be remembered for is some little puppet working for the relatives of George Bush.

Yes, "M" and "Nosferatu" are master works... and exactly the kind of films that Goebbels hated.
Germany had a rich tradition of experimental art, but as you've said, it was completely destroyed by the Nazis.
The only interesting art that was created during the Nazi era was by those who were opposed to Nazism. John Heartfield was a damn genius... and I must say that I love and admire Ernst Jünger, whose courage is unrivaled; probably the only author who had the guts to write strong words against Nazism and managed to stay alive due to his good reputation (He even forbid the Völkischer Beobachter, the official newspaper of the Nazi party, to publish any article by him, forcing them to publish his letter in which he stated that he was opposed to the National Socialist party and refused to be used by the party as "propaganda".

Besides from his courage and being the amazing writer he was... when he writes about Alchemy, the beauty of his words is probably unrivaled.

As for Wittgenstein... !!! Definitely one of my two favorite philosophers of the late XIX century, early XX century (the other one is Henri Bergson). Funny, the two of them were Jewish... Hitler would not approve my tastes! (The two of them are, in my opinion, a must-read for anyone interested in alchemy).

By the way... both Wittgenstein and Bergson could perfectly be used to explain the question you asked in a different thread: "Why alchemy is not pseudo-chemistry?".
A Wittgenstenian (am I inventing this word?) answer would be that chemistry is constrained to the realm of logic, but logic is unable to explain its own sense... the sense comes from something else that is "above" language and logic and is transcendental in a real way... and that's what alchemy works with... and that's what chemistry CAN'T work with.

Chasm
09-09-2016, 03:01 PM
I don't get what you mean with the "master race of books".
I only meant to convey how the book may have been written with racial emphasis in mind after considering that the author claims Wotan as the master tongue. I only say this in light of what we've discussed so far. The book deals a lot with harmonics as well. It attempts to do what Kircher and Liebniz undertook in creating a universal translator.

Well... it's not really like that.
Germany had, before 1933, the biggest and BEST film industry of the whole world.
The typical films were not "seedy" at all... neither "indecent". They were deep and very claustrophobic... and, quite often, quite "dark" and obscure. Besides from being also filled with esoteric allegories.
I've no reason to disagree Zoas. The "thread" that I'm following is what happened after the Great War and what led to WW2. This is the context of my investigations. What did Hitler convey through his obvious symbolisms to the British and its allies?
You appear well informed of the era. I'm looking for any crumb that I can find to help me form an educated opinion of what the truth really is about Hitler.
I absolutely believe what you're telling me.
But is it myth about the moral state of Berlin coming out of the Great Depression? The elder Germans I've spoken with claimed that Hitler cleaned things up. He gave Germans pride again. He was a leader and privy to the stirrings of other nations. This we know for certain. My father in-law tells me how people weren't allowed to gather in the streets to talk. Hitlers name was not allowed to be mentioned.
I realize war measures require acts of security, but are we getting the whole story?
I don't want to be misunderstood, perhaps one day I'll happen upon a long lived alchemist who'd enjoy telling me about his midlife. I'm simply looking for truth whatever it may be.

When Hitler came into power, he wanted to make exclusively "Nazi propaganda films" (direct propaganda). Goebbels deeply disagreed with Hitler on this issue and thought that "direct propaganda" was a bad idea for films... and he became, as Minister of Propaganda, the official censor of all the scripts. So, finally, it was only possible to film what Goebbels wanted.
Unlike Hitler, Goebbels thought that it was a good idea to make "indirect propaganda films"... so under his claw, a new genre was invented, which is often informally called "mountain films": films where a group of males had some sort of adventure at a mountain and confronted a problem, but together they would find a solution to the problem and become "heroes". In most cases they were escapist films without any depth and designed to keep the audience "happy". And then a second genre that became important was comedy, but they were really bad comedies too.

The films were SO BAD that Goebbels forbid film criticism or any kind of "review" of the films in any media (newspapers, magazines, etc)... As I've said, even the most rabid Nazis thought that these films were completely idiotic. That's how the German Film Industry was destroyed.

Hitler was not in love with the idea of Goebbels, but he trusted him... He made an exception with "The Triumph of the Will" (by Leni Riefenstahl), which was certainly a "direct propaganda" film... but it was a rare case (there are a few others "direct propaganda films", but the immense majority of films followed the idea of Goebbels, "indirect propaganda").
This is amazing information Zoas, gives me perspective. I appreciate you sharing all of this and being fairly unbiased in how you respond to my inquiries.

Anyway... the morale of the story is: Who is to blame for the success of Hollywood??? Hitler and Goebbels!!!!
And now their productions form public opinion. I love the invention of television;
But it's uses (at least here in North America), is all about sodomizing the public both mentally and physically...the commercialism acts as a vehicle for this imho!

Andro
09-09-2016, 07:17 PM
sodomizing the public both mentally and physically...

What do you mean by 'sodomizing'?

Chasm
09-09-2016, 09:43 PM
sodomizing the public both mentally and physically...
What do you mean by 'sodomizing'?

Taken in its full context, it means the public is being mentally reamed through the abusive psycho-physical manipulation occurring via commercialization and its adjuncts.
These may include subliminal messages and all other tactics devised to tap the potential or pocketbooks of the consumer. The greater context of the comment was that television in North America is largely used negatively against the populace.