View Full Version : Lead Acetate oil and Kerkrings menstruum

10-01-2016, 12:20 PM
Cerrusite was powdered and put with home made not concentrated wine vinegar. After 3 months the liquid was decanted. I have added more home made freeze concentrated vinegar because grey lead looks like it is still present. The acetate/vinegar liquid I had decanted was evaporated and rain water added, re-evaporated until no acetic acid content remaining. I ended up with this oil.

To this I added kerkrings menstruum today and to my surprise found they are not miscible. Nothing I have ever read about this procedure has ever identified that the alcohol and oil do not mix. I gave the jar a good shake they are definitely not miscible.

Specifically Rubaphilos Saffleur in his third book describes how alcohol will break the metal acetate molecule open, he describes that the lead will then precipitate out of the liquid. But if they are not miscible I do not see how this can be so?

This current experiment is heading more towards the so called Mellisa ens procedure where organic molecules migrate up into the alcohol and then the alcohol is distilled off leaving behind an oil. Presumably the lead acetate will have influenced these organic molecules such that some of the soul/oil of the metal is present. Both the oil and the alcohol are miscible in water so I suppose I could add rainwater to see if this allows the alcohol to interact with the lead acetate. For the time being it will sit in the incubator and I will take look at it in a month or so.

I will crystallise and dry distil next time I think. I wonder what other stuff happens that nobody has mentioned. Perhaps I have had an unusual result, or have people actually tried this? Perhaps most practitioners go straight to the dry distillation.

NB: here is the thread of how I do the Kerkrings menstruum, with the batch I used here I did not 'cook off' the salts at the end because I will resublinate them to make more Kerkrings with fresh alcohol.

10-01-2016, 01:25 PM
Specifically Rubaphilos Saffleur in his third book describes how alcohol will break the metal acetate molecule open, he describes that the lead will then precipitate out of the liquid. But if they are not miscible I do not see how this can be so? Just my guess, they don't mix because of the high concentration of the lead acetate. (similar to why in Ens process concentrated potassium carbonate doesn't mix with alcohol). Add some water and they will probably mix.

This current experiment is heading more towards the so called Mellisa ens procedure where organic molecules migrate up into the alcohol and then the alcohol is distilled off leaving behind an oil.

Both the oil and the alcohol are miscible in water so I suppose I could add rainwater to see if this allows the alcohol to interact with the lead acetate. Do you think that the red liquid is an oil of an organic substance? It is mostly concentrated lead acetate in water, right?

The idea that something might migrate from the red phase into the alcohol is interesting especially since you used a natural ore. Could this be a way to avoid the acetate distillation?

10-01-2016, 05:24 PM
An interesting suggestion which would do no harm to try. The oil can always be re-evaporated if it doesn't work, so all that would be lost is about 50ml of Kerkrings menstruum.

10-01-2016, 05:57 PM
Also, testing only small quantities of the oil + alcohol + water for dissolution could help perform many experiments.

10-01-2016, 10:09 PM
Thank you for your suggestions, testing a small amount; adding water does produce a precipitate but it is light brown not white, possibly due to being in a thick organic soup.

10-06-2016, 10:10 PM
It looks to me like you have to use water as a reagent otherwise the oil and the alcohol do not mix. Only with a reagent like the water can the alcohol catalyse the acetate.

10-07-2016, 01:33 AM
Im a fan of the Lead acetate path... but i havent read anywhere that alcohol is to be used. Only the dry distillation of lead actetate crystals. Why the alcohol? and Could you write out the step by step process you are following here?

10-07-2016, 06:21 AM
I am not making lead acetate crystals for dry distillation on this occasion. This is a simpler initial exploration. Once the vinegar has had time to make lead acetate the liquid is reduced to remove acetic acid then alcohol is added to separate the lead metal from its organic acetate molecule. It seems I reduced the liquid too far and so need to add a little water.

Rather than write out a whole set procedure I shall provide two contemporary sources:

The Acetate Path Resource Papers volume 1 collected by Russel House (the first few pages by Jean Dubuis).

The Hermes Paradigm book III metallic oils of the first order by Rubaphilos Saffleur (he gives this free on his website).
Also there is a thread on this forum


(10th post on that thread).

I am not following either of these rigidly this is exploratory work and as I have observed the oil and alcohol are not miscible so there must be water present as a reagent. This has not been mentioned, it was an interesting surprise. My work is exploratory rather then being fully goal oriented. I'm thinking that this acetate work in general requires vast quantities of vinegar to be made by me so I'm looking at other options also.

10-10-2016, 03:17 AM
Nice, certainly interesting work your doing. I will eventually be setting up some fume hoods and trying out the lead acetate path, and i think your right... best to work of vinegar brewing before even thinking about this path... believe me i started that path but just cant be bothered with the vinegar anymore

10-10-2016, 07:27 AM
Its not difficult or expensive to make the vinegar it's just the sheer quantity required. I used a small test piece of Cerrusite. Would need a kilo of lead to do it properly so I would need about 2 barrel loads of vinegar. At present I make 4 demijohns of wine using sultanas and fresh grapes, the sultanas are soaked in water overnight. A food liquidiser macerated it all. This gives me 9 litres of wine I take the water out of the airlock stoppers and add a little commercial flowers of sulphur to the wine. This prevents mildew and there is air for the acetobacter. So I'm not getting a vinegar mother I just get the initial mucus film on top as ithe wine sours to vinegar. Then I just freeze and and let the vinegar drain out of the ice 2 times so it is about 1/3 rd concentration ( for safety acetic acid is dangerous at higher concentration).

So I reckon it would be at least about 150 demijohns to make enough vinegar, I would be spending a year just producing vinegar. Using more demijohns etc would speed it all up but frankly this whole process currently is far from parsimonious. So I'm just looking to get the basic wet method planetary oils.

10-10-2016, 07:58 AM
I would recommend getting a vinegar mother, just for the fact that a lack of mother increases the likelihood of having strange foreign bacteria creating un-desired results.

Im deffinatly keen to hear how you go with this and what method you use to get your oil.

Do you intend to consume this Oil of Saturn?

10-10-2016, 11:25 AM
Yes there is a lot of stuff written about the vinegar mother if I get deeper into this acetate work I shall consider it. Certainly if I were planning to make the vast quantities of vinegar needed I would need a larger 20-25 litre container then I could just keep taking the vinegar from it and topping up with more wine. This would facilitate the acetobacteria multiplying sufficient to sink down and form a mother.

The issue then personally is not the vinegar mother but making these vast quantities of vinegar.

I am more interested in the hermetic/magical applications of these planetary oils rather than ingesting them. Yes I will add to this thread as I progress the work especially as I get some good pointers from people sometimes.

11-07-2016, 09:55 PM
Update: With Fresh batch of acetate from my Cerrusite sample I got repeat results. With still some water left I added Kerkrings menstruum there is almost a fizzing and a very sweet smell that seems to persist. Similar to very sweet orange scent. The lead after this effervescence settles to the bottom. Currently I decant, reduce by evaporation and repeat.

I think this sweet smell could be the Mercury Principal flying away.

Here is the original small piece of Cerrusite, it is surprising how much vinegar you need.

11-10-2016, 03:15 AM
If my chemistry serves me well, it may have been better to calcine your cerrusite into Lead Oxide before you continued with vinegar. That's why you needed so much vinegar, because it is the oxide form that is most readily interminable with vinegar.

Tip: Pump oxygen into your vinegar mix using air stones. This will greatly increase the speed at which vinegar is produced.
Tip: Try to pump the air bubbles so that they make a little vortex in the water. If there is any real evidence and practical application of vortex mathematics; its the incredible boosts in yeild when dealing with bacteria swimming in a vortex. (This is how they brought penicillin to the whole world)
Tip: If you are doing dry distillation of lead acetate crystals... may I ask, and have you consider... what are you doing about the terrible, horrible toxic fumes that will be spewing out of your apparatus?
Tip: Since, Axis, you intend to work with these planetary energies quite a lot, by the sounds of it, may i suggest doing a very large batch of this lead spirit and oil. As you will require the spirit of lead in order to work with other metals of higher calibre. MAKE HEAPS OF IT SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO REPEAT THE EXPERIMENT LATER ON!

Request: Would love you to send me a small vial of your lead spirit, so that i can compare it with the spirit of sodium that i have prepared.

11-10-2016, 08:56 AM
8PbCO3 + 9CH3COOH = 8Pb(C2H3O2) + 10CO2 + 6H2O

The carbonate seems fine to me.

Elixir mixer I appreciate your comments about dry distillation which I am not currently planning to do. Such work may not occur until 2018 I will probably use a closed partial pressure system with cow/pig adapter so escaping fumes will hopefully be less of a problem.

When I finally have some oil I will not be ingesting it or sending it to anyone else for them to have for safety reasons. The oil will be used in hermetic work with magic mirrors, I am not expecting to get much so it will be a few drops added to a liquid mirror/accumulator which itself will be a Spagyric preparation e.g. a Magisterie.

11-12-2016, 12:09 AM
... to a liquid mirror/accumulator which itself will be a Spagyric preparation e.g. a Magisterie.

Care to share?...

11-12-2016, 12:29 AM
I'm happy to share. It has been suggested that physical evocation can be assisted with basic Spagyrics evaporating this in a fondue pot evaporating in the triangle of art. I have found that a Spagyric is not adequate for visible appearance in this way. So making a higher quality Spagyric, e.g. a Magisterie and this being the liquid body of a magic mirror gives borderline actual visible appearance. Poke Runyon's candle method allows even relative beginners to get very good results and using a liquid mirror of a Magisterie Spagyric with the spirits seal floating on the surface of the liquid vastly improves the evocation. Add to this the Enochian angelic material and excellent results can be achieved, as I say borderline visible appearance even for a beginner. Whilst I can get clear visible contact I'm looking for a way for less advanced magicians to get visible appearance. I think the planetary oil from acetate will further enhance this mirror work and perhaps make visible appearance much easier to achieve. For the triangle of art I think some kind of genuine Alcahest at least will be required, not working on that yet though.

11-14-2016, 06:38 PM
So after several iterations; adding more Kerkrings menstruum, leaving for a day before reducing and pouring into another jar does not leave behind any lead. Rinsing the first jar carefully with water cleans it, no discernible lead so time to distil.

Initially at 105-110 Centigrade water comes over.


Then at a much higher temperature a clear oil comes over, I will rotate 6 more times (add back and re-distil) but put the water aside so that I just rotate the oil.


This oil is very light and clear not like the stinky gloop left over after the lead metal has been removed, the stuff in the jar smells nasty, the distillate is much nicer.

A lot of what I am finding is not described specifically in books e.g a light clear oil that has a lesser but similar odour to the stuff left behind in the flask. Have other people had similar results with this kind of work?

I have decided to rectify rather than rotate, the smell being the main reason. So distil off the water put aside, then distil the oil, then subsequently distil this oil discarding residue in flask, continue until it smells 'right'. Anyone done this or care to offer a theoretical opinion?

11-15-2016, 12:08 AM
You should be bringing over a yellow-transparent water or Philosophical Spiritus Vini, and then a blood red oil is what you are looking for if its the Saturn oil you want.

Im not sure about this clear oil unless you are refering to the Vini, but this is mainly acetone and defiantly a water not an oil.

I have just had all of my chemcs rock up so i may think about re-creating this one again soon.

Is this a vac set up?

Also, if you do successfully create the oil, and have no use for the water, i would love the water for my own experiments, as i do need quite alot of this particular vini for my work.

11-15-2016, 12:10 AM
There is the possibility that.... you did not calcine your lead acetate crystals before beginning distillation. This could explain the lightness in your oil.

This calcination that i am referring to is just a gentle heat to push of any H20 caught in crystal lattice.

In more alchemical words, you need to fixate your crystals before distillation.

Edit: I would also like to add, that your set up for this seems very very basic...

With this setup you will lose the most volatile of the waters (definitely, they are hard to capture, need ice trap)

Another thing.... you know those fumes are dangerous right?? boiling lead in your bedroom is never good on the ol' penal gland.

One property i found interesting in these oils is that they seem to be strangely magnetic. Test your clear oil by dropping a bit of silver or copper in there and see if the oil tries clinging to it.

11-15-2016, 12:26 AM
I did not have lead acetate crystals at any time, this is a much more basic procedure with liquid lead acetate in solution catalysed using alcohol to get rid of the lead. I am only getting this water, then some slightly yellow oil, the matter in the flask was starting to burn but no red oil. I thought you only got the red oil stuff when you dry distil lead acetate crystal. This was lead acetate in solution with the lead knocked out of the molecule by alcohol (Kerkrings menstruum). You get rid of all the lead before distilling, so no actual lead present in the boiling flask it was all removed during the add alcohol and evaporate iterations.

If I finished too early I have another lead acetate batch incubating at present so I could push the heat higher when I do that batch in the new year. In the future I may send unused materials however at present quantities are small and in this instance the water will probably be used with the second batch of lead that is currently incubating. I definately have an oil here but it is not red. It smells similar to the stinky stuff in the flask but not so strong and a higher pleasant note faintly behind.

I didn't vacuum distil.

I appreciate the safety comments, thank you. The distillation occurred in the lab room which is a rather small room but not a bedroom, it is a specific lab only room, perhaps one day I will have more space to do these works.

11-15-2016, 03:03 AM
Ahhh i see, this is not a typical acetate distillation. Interesting that you have found another method of extraction. Interesting results you've found. If the oil is clear, does this suggest that you have not separated out the soul of the metal?

11-15-2016, 08:26 AM
This is possibly so elixirmixer, I refer you to post 8 of this thread which gives modern sources for this type of work. Also a more well known book Real Alchemy by Bartlett. The 12th chapter preparing minerals specifically, rather than distilling and re-distilling the oil he advocates the use of ether. For safety reasons I shall avoid the use of ether, I intend to successively rectify until the oil smells OK.

Here is the oil distilling.


11-15-2016, 11:40 PM
To summarise:

I got the alcohol to sit on top of the oil which is like the extraction method given in Bartlett's real Alchemy the idea being the oily qualities rise up into the alcohol menstruum. I decided to add water to act as reagent so that alcohol and oil would mix; to knock the lead out from the acetal molecule and then distil this stuff to get an oil. I will stop when the oil is no longer stinky, nicer odours are starting to emerge.

With the second batch I'm thinking to just do this Bartlett method of having the alcohol sit on top of the oil and then Draw the alcohol off. Distil off the alcohol which can be reclaimed leaving behind the oil that was drawn up into the alcohol. This is similar to the so called Primum Mellisa ens plant oil procedure.

None of this involves dry distilling acetate crystals, it is basic starting off mineral Alchemy.

11-16-2016, 04:00 AM
Okay, I read Metallic oils of the first order last night and I think I'm up to speed now. I did not realise that you can extract these oils without dry distillation.

After reading that book and contemplating, I think that this procedure (the one your doing) is in fact superior to the dry distillation procedures, just because it is a less destructive form of 'isolation'. In this method, the acetic acid is taking on the energy signature of the metal and then being gently dried, as opposed to a full blown decomposition of the materials parallel to the energy exchange.

I found this very interesting:
The rule is, in all things alchemical, that any final product is not truly philosophic (to be of use in alchemy), until it has passed the still head. That means, that it has been distilled (for liquids), or sublimated (for solids). A product that has passed the still head is thus free of all its terrestrial grossness, and is as pure and volatile as we can make it, and … has touched heaven, and received there a subtle and philosophic character that is the signature of alchemical products. This is important from an energetic point of view, and, in the Great Work, from the view of a substance’s ability to form homogene relationships with other substances native to it

Are your oils coming over the helm? I am putting in a surge of effort to re-establish my laboratory, after a large shipment of equipment and basically made it impossible to move in there... As soon as the lab is back up and running, I will be doing a full investigation into these Metallic Sulphurs, and hopefully, reach my goal of having a medicine capable of great internal changes.

I wish i knew more about Qaballah, or Theurgy to be more precise... is it Theurgy you are practising Axis? Or maybe a bit of Necromancy??? ;)

This method of Sulfur extract seems a lot safer aswell, no puffs of toxic white smoke ect...

What dissapoints me quite heavily, is that the auther of the metallic oils of the first order, basically says, that while he has prepared sulfurs from each of the metals, none of them proved to be overly medicinal, expect he believes that the sulfur of antimony made from its glass is superior to the other sulfurs, and i believe it is this path that the author chooses to create his 'stone'.

I'll finish by saying, that i truly love metallic spagyrics. It is such a great way to learn some of the most critical points in our Art.

A hidden gem for those who are looking: These oils are actually not 'extracts' at all, but rather, a transmutation of energy signatures within the acetic acid, which is caused by the metal itself. Therefore these oils are organic, and if prepared correctly, having removed all of the crude metal from there-in, are ingest-able, and do pass on the energy signatures of the metals to the person who is consuming them.

IMO, the way quantum physics is heading, it will not be long before there is a full scientific explanation of this process.

11-16-2016, 09:19 AM
I think using natural minerals rather than scrap metals and making your own vinegar will improve the quality of these oils. Also doing the evaporating below 90centigrade before distilling in accordance with Dubuis theory of vegetable life, a theory which this Rubaphilos guy doesn't agree with.

However I am not planning to ingest these oils, i will use them with magic mirrors and I think this 'metal oil stuff' is a basic primer work before moving on to the dry distillation of acetate crystals which I'm not totally sure I will do. I'm a magician of over 3 decades who has come to Alchemy 4 years ago, they are not I think two discreet disciplines but are often presented as such. My focus in magic is Franz Bardon's hermetic works and John Dee and Edward Kelly's Enochian material and there is clear overlap with contemporary Alchemy. Personally I would not waste my time with necromancy.

Yes the oil is coming over the stil-head but needs to do so several times. When the oil is incubating with Kerkrings menstruum I have it with a planetary talisman, a similar idea to Paracelsus archidoxes of magic perhaps.

11-17-2016, 12:48 AM
Okay, so funnily enough I actually had a jar of galena sitting in some pure aectic acid in the shed for about 3 months. I filtered, evaporated and obtained a lovely red oil. (This galena was not very calcined, we tried but failed)

Then the stupidity began.. I used spirit of wine to try and dissolve this oil for filtration and rectification.. but what happened (and is still happening right now) is that the alcohole is re-acting with the oil and turning it all milky orange, it is quite an active process you can watch it, it looks very 'alive'.

What is going on here? i thought that spirit of wine was a perfect medium for this kind of oil? Im worried that maybe my SoW is contaminated with the plastic bottle its been stored in...

Any suggestions?

EDIT: The smell is strangly seductive. Something about it is making me really really tempted to taste some. A strange liquid indeed, never seen anything quite like it and i think its given me a headache.

ANOTHER EDIT: It has now dissolved all of the oil. is an orange milk smelling strongly of the alcohol. Going to filter and evaporate, was expecting crystals in the process. Got none.

11-17-2016, 03:09 AM
so the orange milk ended up separating and I have isolated my Red Oil of Lead.

I think i have consumed almost everything ive ever made, but I will not be consuming this... at least not yet. Going to re-read metallic oils of the first order and make sure i have gotten all the lead out.

I'm rather excited, i didn't even intend to make an oil of lead, i actually was waiting to do a full blown dry distillation, but noticing the high quantity of oil from a very small batch of galena has got me really excited to make some more in this method. Only down side is there is no spirit of lead being produced....

I have also found some more random acetic acid mixes in the shed.

I've got some Oil of Tin ready for extraction and also some Oil of Indium... I wonder if anyone has ever made that before.. I might be one of the first! Buuuut probably not...

I will get back to you with a pretty picture of the end product of my Oil of Lead. You say that this oil will distil over... how easily? One distillation?

EDIT: I think the SoW worked well, it dissolved the oil and then separated from it, strangely, but this made for a very clean product indeed.

11-17-2016, 04:52 AM
So i did taste it... bad idea, it was sweet and now i have a headache. For those who dont know, lead acetate is sweet to the taste, often refereed to as 'Sugar of lead'

This tonic is both poisonous and medicinal... I feel it poisoning me and healing the body at the same time (It is my Chi Gung practise that makes me able to sense the happenings of my organs)

Yep, definitely a powerful detoxifier, which is great if you just got lead poisoning :)

11-17-2016, 06:15 AM
Question? Axis, can you give me some instruction as to how i might perform some kind of magical operation with this oil?

I am very limited with my understanding of ritual magic, (not without trying to learn) and i would love to try something from someone elses perspective. (Ive mostly been stuck on the basic pentagram rites ect..)

11-17-2016, 10:20 AM
I am alarmed that you chose to ingest this before it is fully processed, as you know I do not intend to ingest the completed product let alone a partially completed oil.

First of all elixirmixer I should say this is the first time I have done mineral Alchemy and specifically I have not done this method before. Your observation that there is almost an effervescence and a strong sweet smell is exactly what I found. Like I mentioned before I think it is the Mercury principal flying away.

The add alcohol evaporate, decant then evaporate until no more lead precipitated I did thoroughly.

So far I have distilled 3 times, it was hard work cleaning the flask the first time. This is were I differ from the described method I do not rotate by putting my oil back on the residue. I have rectified, distilling off the oil and cleaning the residue from the flask each time. The aroma of the oil has shifted from burnt rubber and excrement to now it is like somewhat burned digestive biscuits. The oil is clear and light with a yellow residue in the small amount left over in the boiling flask.

With regard to magical advice I shall post separately I will assume you have the pentagram and hexagram rituals only. I know you haven't asked this but I shall say it for general knowledge. I do not take magical students I only give informal advice and discussions. To explain, I was a tutor at hermeticacademy .com giving free tuition but I left due to family commitments. I will post a template talisman ritual on this thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4975-Talisman-Ritual) which is limited to GD pentagram and Hexagram rituals.

11-17-2016, 11:41 AM
Yes, quite foolish to injest, i do regret it. That being said, its not the end of the world. The roman's would store their vinegar in lead pots, because it appeared to sweeten the taste. It was common for them to ingest the sugar of lead (Some have speculated that this assisted in the demise of the empire).

Im very much looking forward to trying out a bit of magic on this vial. After it is completed of course. I still need to do distillations.

Im really glad you got this thread happening axis otherwise i never would have found that old jar of galena. Im pumped again about these planetary oils. All the more cool that i can try out a bit of magic now too.

Thank you very much.

11-17-2016, 12:00 PM
Elixirmixer your Blasť attitude to ingesting lead continues to alarm me, I think it was what may have killed sir Isaak Newton in the end.

I use the talisman after the first batch of alcohol (Kerkrings menstruum) is added and the effervescence has finished, I seal the jar put the talisman on silk underneath the jar, wrap in kitchen foil and put in the incubator. My thinking is that the Kerkrings menstruum will work over time with the help of the talisman. So then the decant evaporate cycles occur after that which is again different from the outline given by Rubaphilos.

I'm curious also to compare all this with the alcohol sitting on top of the oil to get an extraction as outlined in Bartlett's Real Alchemy that I mentioned earlier. I'm liking all this straightforward lab method as an introduction to the mineral and metal works.

11-17-2016, 12:17 PM
I cant believe i missed this in Bartletts book, i must have read them ten times through...

You have definitely stumbled across a better way of 'starting' in the mineral realms.

My 'intro' was with bartletts dry distillation of sodium acetate early this year. A lot more preparation and equipment required... these extractions are brilliant ways to isolate the sulfurs. Of course, the dry distillation gives us Spirit of Metals, which you would need for stone ect... so there is still an important place for the dry distillations.

Im not too blase about it, i got some on my finger, and naturally thought 'hmmm, wonder what it tastes like' and as soon as i tasted the sweetness, i realized how completely f'ing stupid what i had just done was and heavily rinsed out my mouth with water.

Sir Issac Newton (My all time alchemical favourite after Jesus) died from (well lets get real, the ortopsies wern't very good back then) or at least, that evidence was found to suggest that he died of mercury vapours.

Now mercury on the other hand is something I am very fearful of doing something stupid with; and so I am completely staying away from it until i do grow some further lab maturity.

Lead is bad, really bad. Will lower your IQ in a heartbeat, mercury on the other hand, will simply dissolve your brain and have it melting out your nose. I may create another thread in my "what not to do" series and address this foolish mistake.

While on the subject, even though old Rubaphilos didnt get much out of these medicinally, Im not sure why, because with the Red oil of Gold i consumed, I felt it quite strongly, and when I took this Sulphur of Lead, I felt the hot flushes and sweeting that is described when consuming the 'stone of Saturn' but obviously not on such a high level.

Don't take drugs kids! Especially if you made them yourself ;)

11-17-2016, 12:40 PM
Spin-off thread: Talisman Ritual (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4975-Talisman-Ritual)

11-18-2016, 06:37 PM
Update: I have a feeling my first attempt at this has failed and the oil is burnt. After 5 rectification/distils the burnt smell persists in the oil though it is clear and light. I think I shall do reflux vacuum distil on the next batch to avoid thermal decomposition, which makes this method far less basic. Bartlett's alcohol on top of the oil to get an extraction is the more straight forward beginning approach I think. Once I get a decent product from both methods I will be able to compare them. This will be after Christmas because I am waiting on a batch of Kerkrings menstruum.

I'm down to 75 ml of the current oil so 2-3 more distillation is all I will be able to achieve, I will see if it improves its aroma.

11-19-2016, 01:54 AM
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you might have stuffed this one axis. I think if you burn it, there is little that can be done to fix it. But its still an interesting experiment to see if distillations will help salvage it or not, i could always be wrong.

11-19-2016, 09:21 AM
It is likely the oil is spoiled in the case yes. On a practical note this means that this method probably requires vacuum distillation because the heat was only just enough for the oil to come over the stil-head. This situation seems to be that the oil suffers thermal decomposition before distil temp is achieved. I will vacuum distil to avoid thermal decomposition the next batch and compare the two. The 2nd batch will not be ready until the new year.

Hopefully this is the only hitch I encounter, when I did the basic plant Spagyric work which I started 4 years ago I had two failures before my first succesfull Spagyric elixir.

11-19-2016, 08:20 PM
Here is the final colourless light oil.


The burn smell is now very faint but there is not enough to keep distilling. So it does not have much thermal decomposition after the first distil otherwise the burn smell would not fade slowly. Definately vacuum distil I think though for the next try. It has a sweet smell with faint burn smell. I do not consider this one a success.

11-19-2016, 11:59 PM
I used to own bartletts first book but i have regrettably lent it out and never seen it again. Could you write out this procedure you follow, as I am still quite confused as to why your oil has no colour. Mine is a deep red, which traditionally, Oil of Saturn is always deep red.

Again, not to say that you haven't developed a very interesting oil yourself, but i'm un-sure where our paths differed??

11-20-2016, 12:03 AM
Also, i'd like to ad and ask you... have you smelt the acetate after one of these distillations before? It has quite an unusual smell and taste. One, i believe, could possibly perceive it as a 'burnt' smell. Maybe its not burnt at all but it fine. The smells are very unusual... I would have thought that if you actually burnt it, it wouldnt be crystal clear...

11-20-2016, 09:46 AM
Interesting what you say elixirmixer. I think vacuum distilling the next batch should reduce the possibility of thermal decomposition so if it still smells burnt after then it may be OK. This clear sweet oil with faint burn smell, if I had been able to distil more the smokey burn smell may have gone completely.

Bartlett's stuff can be viewed online here:


11-20-2016, 10:07 AM
Here is the basic process I did this time.

Vinegar and ground Cerrusite
After a few months evaporate and add water then re-evaporate until no acetic acid residue.
Leave sufficient water for Kerkrings menstruum to mix (see first photos in this thread which shows if the oil is too thick).
Incubate with talisman for at least 1 month
Distil off water put aside then raise temperature to distill off oil
Clean boiling flask, re-distil oil to improve smell.

Rubaphilos says to rotate the oil back over the residue I didn't do it that way. I cleaned the boiling flask each time and rectified.

Bartlett's method is the initial oil is thicker so the alcohol sits on top (like in first photos of this thread), leave it to extract in incubator, then pour off the alcohol distil it to reclaim it and the oil residue in the boiling flask is the product.

11-20-2016, 10:04 PM
Okay I see now. I have not used kerkrings mens.

I used galena, in pure acetic acid, filtered, added Spirit of wine, filtered. Done.

Its not really ready, I will be adding more spirit of wine, filtering again, and then attempting a distillation, mind you, I do not have a vaccume apparatus. For some reason my brain is having a hard time wrapping my head around that one...

I will attempt it anyway. Wish me luck.

So Axis, you have created this oil, in hope's that it will assist in a type of 'summoning' ritual. Is that correct?

11-20-2016, 10:32 PM
Yes, I use a liquid as the mirror and will add a few drops of this to liquid in a bowl which constitutes the mirror, to assist with the visible appearance in the bowl of liquid. At present I find a Spagyric Magisterie is useful, it would be good to use a more basic easier to make liquid body for this mirror and add a few drops of a more powerful metal oil. In magic various preparations are used as 'accumulators' to provide a better medium for visible appearance. So I'm looking at various Spagyric and Alchemical preparations to allow much easier visible appearance. Firstly in a magic mirror and subsequently as a 3D visible image in the triangle of art.

I can achieve visible appearance in a mirror or as a visible 3D form in a triangle. It took many years, perhaps an established Alchemical preparation could have helped me earlier on. This would be a good thing to find out about and share.

11-20-2016, 10:39 PM
Good work your doing here Axis. Would be great if you are successful, I will be trying to continue making these oils and sharing my procedures on this forum.

11-21-2016, 12:42 PM
The more people share the more is learnt. I will add fresh stuff as the work is done so probably January 2017.

12-08-2016, 10:27 AM
Axis, I was thinking, and I don't assume to know exactly why your doing what your doing, but aren't your ritual skills better used to summon Saturnian energy into the lead oil itself, rather than directed at the menstruum??

I believe these oils, truly are only of their greatest assistance, that which is an assistance to the mind, if well performed ritualistic theurgy commands the intellectual force of the spheres, down into the oil. In fact I view these oils as Gods vehicles to do specifically as I have suggested.

Just want to hear more about the overall methods and practises we
Can conjure as a community, perhaps we will find some truly magnificent treasures??

12-15-2016, 11:08 PM
I wanted to give this some carefull thought before responding.

A finished oil can have work done on it, I would evoke an Enochian Angel into the oil for example.

More interesting to me is application of magic throughout the process rather then on the final product. Because Kerkrings menstruum is described as a bridging menstruum I think that more basic talismanic Magickal work can help with the transfer of the planetary energy to the organic oil eventually produced. My thinking is that a talisman would be something more readily useable. Evocation is something that many aspire to but few achieve, Talismans whilst not exactly a beginner thing is more within reach so these can help people who have perhaps not spent decades studying magic like I have.

Once I develop my lab technique more I will be researching the use of magic with the dry distillation of the acetates. The main reason for this is because I started out in ritual magic and came to Alchemy decades later. So naturally I choose to integrate both in one hermetic pursuit. I appreciate that this is an Alchemy forum so generally I intend to only discuss magic when it is directly applied to specific lab Alchemy methods.

01-26-2017, 07:38 AM
i have become disenchanted with this method of getting the oil/Sulphur because the only way I have found to avoid burning the oil is to vacuum distil. So my thinking is if you have to vacuum distil may as well dry distil acetate crystals possibly also using a vacuum pump because technically it is not that much further to go.

Only Bartlett's alcohol on top of oil extraction method is a feasible basic method that I have seen. I just don't see how with the approach by Rubaphilos the oil doesn't undergo thermal decomposition unless you put a vacuum on it. So may as well 'roll with it' and actually employ thermal decomposition with dry distil of acetate.