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Schmuldvich
10-30-2016, 03:10 PM
Our Art has been accomplished for thousands of years--without the use of electricity, without the use of extreme methods, and under not so wonderful circumstances all over the world! This leads me to believe what the Sages say is true: There is no need for vast arrays of laboratory equipment, nor is there need for countless elaborate processes carried out by the Artist! Alchemy takes time, and I feel as if most people just getting their feet wet fail to observe this vital fact: Putrefaction must occur before we see all the changes in our flask that the Ancients described.


Are we all in agreement that Putrefaction is an absolutely necessary early stage of our Great Work? Must not every one of us wait about one philosophical month, or 40 days, before seeing the blackest of the black?






"From the putrefaction therefore in this water, there first appears blackness, like unto broth wherein some bloody thing is boiled."


"Now I have shown you that this operation is at no great remove from the living things, nor was anything over born or endowed with spirit or growth except for putrefaction and change of appearance. Thus it is that an authority has said that this operation avails nothing until after decay."


"Our venerable Water of the Philosophers, original Hyle of the Sages; it is the stone that one revealed for you in this treatise. It is the first matter of the perfect body, as you have determined. Put your matter in a furnace, into a clean vessel, clear transparent and round, whose opening you will hermetically seal, so that nothing can escape. Your matter is to be placed on a level bed or surface, slightly hot. You will leave it there for one Philosophical month. Maintain the heat evenly, so that the perspiration of the matter will sublime, until it sweats no longer, that nothing rises or descends, that it begins to putrefy."


And this blackness is that which conjoineth the body with the spirit. Then saith Rhasis, the government of the fire being observed for the space of forty days, both (to wit the white liquor, and the citrine body) are made a permanent or fixed water, covered over with blackness; which blackness, if rightly ordered, cometh to its perfection in forty days space. Of which another philosopher saith, so long as the obscure blackness appeareth, the woman hath the dominion; and this is the first conception or strength of our stone; for if it be not first black, it shall never be either white or red. Avicen saith, that heat causeth blackness first, in a moist body; then the humidity being consumed, it putteth off or loseth its blackness; and as the heat increaseth, or is continued, so it grows white. Lastly, by a more inward heat, it is calcined into ashes, as the philosophers teach. In the first decoction, which is called putrefaction, our stone is made all black, to wit, a black earth, by the drawing out of its humidity; and in that blackness, the whiteness is hidden. And when the humidity is reverted upon the blackness again, and by a continued soft and gentle digestion is made fixed with its earth, then it becomes white. In this whiteness, the redness is hidden; and when it is decocted and digested by augmentation and continuance of the fire, that earth is changed into redness, as we shall hereafter teach.


The highest mystery of the whole Work is the Physical Dissolution into Mercury, and the reduction into primary matter.


Take then in the name of the great God, the venerable matter of the Philosophers, called the first Hyle of the Sages, which contains the above named Philosophical Mercury, termed, the first matter of the perfect Body, put it into its Vessel, which must be clear, diaphanous and round, and closely stopped by the Seal of Seals, and make it hot in its place, well-prepared, with temperate heat, for the space of a Philosophical Month, keeping it six weeks and two days in the sweat of Sublimation until it begins to be putrefied, to ferment, to be coloured and to be congealed with its metallic humidity, and be fixed so far, that it do no more ascend in aery fumous substance, but remain fixed in the bottom, turned from what it was, and divested of all viscous humidity, putrefied and black, which is called the sable robe, Night, or the Head of the Crow. Continue therefore its decoction with a gentle fire, until all the black matter appearing in the superficies be quite dissipated by the Magistery, which blackness is by the Philosophers called the dark mantle of the Stone, which afterwards becoming clear is termed the cleansing water of the earth, or rather the Elixir. And note, that the blackness which appears is a sign of putrefaction. And the beginning of the dissolution is a sign of the conjunction of both natures. And this blackness appears sometimes in forty days, more or less, according to the quantity of the matter, and the industry of the operator, which contributes much to the separation of the said blackness. Now my Son, by the grace of God you are acquainted with one Element of our Stone, which is the black earth, the Raven's head, by some called the obscure shadow, upon which earth, as upon a base, all the rest is grounded. This terrestrial and dry Element, is called, Laton, the Bull, black dregs, our Metal, our Mercury.


Therefore since this mystery of Putrefaction is not more secret then necessary, so necessary that without it there is nothing can be done to purpose, that is to say, with profit; I shall be a little plain and full in the prosecution of this mystery: For in the knowledge of this consists all that is required to make a Philosopher. All the intentions of the Artist, must be only so to prepare and order things, that he may be sure of this terminus; and when he is there come, he is as sure a Master as if he had the Stone in his Cabinet. By the failing of this sign, the Operator is always to turn either backward to seek out some other principles, or forward, or to the right, or to the left; but when he is Master of this, he then can fail in nothing but in the Regimen of the outward heat.


"This first regimen has been studiously kept secret by all the Sages. They have spoken of the second regimen, or that of Saturn, as if it were the first, and have thus left the student without guidance in those operations which precede the appearance of that intense blackness. Count Bernard, of Trevisa, says, in his Parable, that When the King has come to the Fountain, he takes off the golden garment, gives it to Saturn, and enters the bath alone, afterwards receiving from Saturn a robe of black silk. But he does not tell us how long it takes to put off that golden robe; and thus, like all his brethren, leaves the poor beginner to grope in the dark during 40 or 50 days."


"Aphorism 83...There is no new generation made without a previous corruption."


"The matter should be gathered at the right time. This must be well preserved until putrefaction."




http://i.imgur.com/bUzPZHs.jpg
Posted by Andro nearly 10 years ago


How many here have achieved our true Blackness?

Andro
10-30-2016, 09:01 PM
Posted by Andro nearly 10 years ago

I only joined this forum 7 years ago :)

As for the above picture, I reckon there was way too much 'accidental' humidity ('phlegm' or 'waters of the flood/deluge') for the body to fully putrefy and be subsequently 'calcined' & 'sublimed' by means of its own 'water'.

Schmuldvich
10-31-2016, 12:36 AM
I was under the impression the image you posted was a successful putrefaction. Thank you for clarifying. Do you have any images or wisdom you would like to share regarding Putrefaction that you haven't shared already?





In my method/Xperience:

1. The white emerges later, after putrefaction/dark/black stage. Also red. Not theory.

2. Not all my matters putrefied 2 absolute black. Dew was best 4 black.

3. Seal flask tight = no blackness. Not theory.
Air brings death/decay & life as well. Fire of death & life is in air.
The air we breathe keeps us alive & slowly kills us @ the same time.
That's b/cause our body cannot cast off most superfluities found in air (& nourishment).
Hopefully Stone can change that to some extent ;)

4. If temp gentle, genie/more volatile parts stay in flask.

5. U want attractive & homogenized body of magnet, not the water from where it came.
If something hetero in magnet, magnet no good. Throw away hetero b4 expose magnet 2 Fire.

6. Fire then attracted 2 magnet body & incarnates inside.
Magnet must B very attractive. Good Magnet already has lots of Fire.
Add more Magnetic Water = Add more Fire.
Superfluous water slowly evaporates again. No need 4 it.

7. Repeat cycle until body of magnet supersaturated w/incarnated Fire.

8. Surely are other ways/matters also. Not monopole.

Andro
10-31-2016, 05:27 AM
Do you have any images or wisdom you would like to share regarding Putrefaction that you haven't shared already?

Not sure about 'wisdom', but too much water hinders the process, as does too much dryness. We want it to 'sweat', not to 'drown'. The 'sweat' is being cohobated/circulated upon its body, in gentle heat. The 'sweat' in this case would be a weak expression of the 'Acid' - active principle (Radical Humidity). We constantly loose our RH throughout our lives, 'cooking' at our own body temperature.

black
10-31-2016, 09:23 AM
If you do not pass through the blackness to the light...you will not be
able to read the emerald tablet.

It alludes me at the moment who might have suggested this...but it may
have been Dr Glauber.

Schmuldvich
11-04-2016, 03:53 AM
Not sure about 'wisdom', but too much water hinders the process, as does too much dryness. We want it to 'sweat', not to 'drown'. The 'sweat' is being cohobated/circulated upon its body, in gentle heat.

I appreciate you sharing, Adro.

It baffles me (well, honestly I guess it doesn't really...) that so many people FOR SO MANY YEARS can talk about Alchemy but very, very, very few actually start the Great Work and much, much, much fewer than that even start working down the right path to begin with!

I guess that is why so few pictures exist on the internet of legitimate Alchemical works. You would think that one could dig and at least find a couple pictures of one of the most forefront operations of our Magnum Opus...Putrefaction...but no such pictures exist. I originally thought Andro's preparation was a successful putrefaction, but I guess not; that means that to the best of my knowledge there is only one picture on the internet of our Putrefied starting matter, and that was originally posted on a private message board years ago....So that leaves me with the question: Do so few people know such little about Alchemy that they forsake this critically important early step? Maybe it's just because no one wants to post their Work publically.

Everyone has their reasons and I respect that.

I will ask though, being new here...has ANYONE here achieved our Blackness? Anyone at all, past members even?




If you do not pass through the blackness to the light...you will not be able to read the emerald tablet.

It alludes me at the moment who might have suggested this...but it may have been Dr Glauber.

Have you achieved our Blackness, black?

Awani
11-04-2016, 04:54 AM
...but very, very, very few actually start the Great Work and much, much, much fewer than that even start working down the right path to begin with...

...and the few who do start the Great Work, and the few who walk down the "right path" (as you say) never ever ever make the Stone. Pretty funny if you ask me.

:cool:

Andro
11-04-2016, 05:06 AM
...and the few who do start the Great Work, and the few who walk down the "right path" (as you say) never ever ever make the Stone.

How can anyone possibly KNOW this, except the silent ones who have crossed this threshold... Or the less silent ones who only introduce gentle guidance, without making bombastic claims?

(bombastic claims such as: "the right path")

Andro
11-04-2016, 05:23 AM
Everything can putrefy, including what you call 'our matter', by which I can only assume you refer to urine (correct me if I'm wrong). But urine is not 'our matter'. If anything, it can be a useful 'Materia Tertia', if one is inclined to work in this manner.

Also, if we're talking about Alchemical putrefaction (putrefaction of a body by means of its own 'water' OR the Universal 'water' OR an expression of it), it is different than the more 'common' variations. And if someone posted a picture somewhere, it doesn't really say much. Black color doesn't necessarily equal NNN.

Speaking of which, are you talking about a 'black pitch'-like mass (NNN)? If you have seen a picture of such, you should be able to tell if it's a genuine Alchemical putrefaction or not.


Maybe it's just because no one wants to post their Work publicly.

That's a fair assumption.

Awani
11-04-2016, 05:43 AM
How can anyone possibly KNOW this, except the silent ones who have crossed this threshold...

Or whistleblowers.

:cool:

Andro
11-04-2016, 06:02 AM
I would suggest that we all stay on the topic of putrefaction here, in the context of practical/lab alchemy (the stated intention of the OP), as there are already a few threads dealing with what alchemy is or isn't. People have strong views/opinions/sentiments on this matter, and as of late there is a general tendency to insert those views pretty much everywhere, and other threads/topics get side-tracked because of it. I'm doing this myself sometimes, and I will be more attentive in the future, so this is (also) a 'note to self' kind of thing :)

Aspects of Alchemy (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3946-Aspects-of-Alchemy)

Is Spiritual Alchemy A Valid Path? (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4824-Is-Spiritual-Alchemy-A-Valid-Path)

The Grrreat Work (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4949-The-Great-Work)

black
11-04-2016, 08:09 AM
I would like to think that there are several members of this forum
that can putrefy to blackness in the vegetal work.

But it would appear that the blackness that we need is the one
that will open the gate allowing the celestial planets or metals
to present themselves in their due order.

The more I study, the more I realize how little I know about this
multispectral art.

If someone posted photos of the great work I probably
wouldn't understand what they meant.

Black paint in a flask may possibly look like the alchemic
blackness, so a photo can be very deceptive.

Perhaps the dialogue presented with the photo can tell so
much more about this blackness???

theFool
11-04-2016, 03:02 PM
..there is only one picture on the internet of our Putrefied starting matter.. Since almost no one knows what the starting matter is, I think the conclusion comes by itself that there are not any pictures of it in putrefaction.

True Initiate
11-04-2016, 03:51 PM
I would like to think that there are several members of this forum
that can putrefy to blackness in the vegetal work.


I think anyone can accomplish vegetable putrefaction. The bigger key to me is how to go from black stage to white stage and breed new life into a dead matter.

Schmuldvich
11-04-2016, 04:39 PM
Since almost no one knows what the starting matter is, I think the conclusion comes by itself that there are not any pictures of it in putrefaction.


http://i.imgur.com/7CKAIUj.jpg
Originally posted by Krisztian



Black paint in a flask may possibly look like the alchemic blackness, so a photo can be very deceptive. Perhaps the dialogue presented with the photo can tell so much more about this blackness???

YES! This is how to discern the false from the true.

It is through one's words and actions that their efforts can be analyzed and critiqued. Of course no picture that anyone posts will ever be undeniable proof of anything. Out of everyone here, the member of this forum Krisztian understands and knows more about Alchemy than probably 90% of this forum's members combined. For years on the internet he has demonstrated a sound comprehension of Alchemical principles, and he has even gone out of his way to nudge, prod, and push members in the right direction (very few of which ever heed his suggestions). Curiosity got the best of me so for many weeks I pulled up every piece of information I could find on this mysterious man. What I found really surprised me...I didn't realize how successful this man was in his outward life...or who he really was. Needless to say, Krisztian is an accomplished man who knows what he is talking about and is on the right path (though he has not successfully created the Philosopher's Stone yet). We can all learn things from members like Kristian.


There was another member full of valuable knowledge here. Somebody felt the need to ban him from this site, so he will never be able to answer any questions on this forum regarding his Work, but this is what he posted...



http://i.imgur.com/RHrAjCr.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/JV8WfDH.png
Originally posted by Chasm



My image is taken as is for a reason. I have many images of the crow. The blackest of black. This [top] picture comes after that yes, but how?


You can see three matters in the [top] image. The fourth, black matter is missing. It has been cut off.


These white salts are regenerated matter [in the bottom picture]. The common white ammoniacal salts are saturated with a yellow oil in this image. To be precise, these white salts are the second white salts which arrive after/during the fading black of blacks putrefaction.


The salts have basically turned into a white "grease" [in the bottom picture] as opposed to the black, opened and putrefied bituminous matter. The iris got me to thinking of the peacocks tail.


This [bottom] image is taken as the matter is exiting the black of blacks stage or the reign of Saturn. It signifies the triumph of antimony. Notice what is depicted as a "starry sky", the coating of the glass. Again, the circular iris are reminiscent of the caudal pavonis features.

The bottom image appears to be a picture taken post-Putrefaction. As you can see, the white salts have already started to separate from the black putrefied Matter below. The OP claims to have more pictures of Putrefaction too, so True Initiate, these pictures may be insight into going from blackness to whiteness and how to achieve our Separation.

Ghislain
11-04-2016, 08:12 PM
I think anyone can accomplish vegetable putrefaction. The bigger key to me is how to go from black stage to white stage and breed new life into a dead matter.

Could it be that if you burn organic material to ash and then steep it in water, filter the water and evaporate it you are left with the white salts.

These salts, potash, will breath new life into old soil.

Ghislain

Ghislain
11-04-2016, 08:19 PM
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fanitachowdry.files.wordpress.com% 2F2013%2F11%2Fannealed-brass-2.jpg&f=1
Source: (https://anitachowdry.wordpress.com/2013/11/15/heat-induced-colours-on-metals/)


Could the colours have something to do with temperature?

Ghislain

Schmuldvich
11-24-2016, 12:11 AM
Certainly temperature has something to do with Putrefaction. Even with those whom experiment upon diverse and random starting material, you would think some would have least attempted some kind of putrefaction.

Black, White, then Red is thoroughly ingrained into all of our subconsciouses here, is it not? Why are so few people focused on achieving our Putrefaction?

Salazius
11-24-2016, 12:42 PM
Blackness is an interaction of the Principles, as a Chaos. Or disequilibrated phase of arrangement of the elements. It is a medium phase between two equilibriums.

It is also sometimes seen as a paradoxical phase, because the Principles are almost in fusion, but not able to, and also in the state of separation, but not able to separate exactly and really.

A Turba. A Massa-Turba/tio or action to make something to get out.

Putrefactio has two major phases.

The first one is the peeling and removing the flesh/sulfur from the body (salt) and releasing the principles of the matter. This is the breaking down. Solve. Separatio.

Once the bones are cleaned from flesh, a new body can be construct upon it.

But, by conjunctioof Salt and Sulfur (Red King and White Queen, Sun and Moon), via the Mercury effect, there is a fusion of both, and generating a New Black. So, Conjunctio is the New Black.

There is several "blackness", and they all involve Mercury as responsible for this. He is the one that marries the Principles or make them divorce.

So, in its action, Mercury acts as Cupid or a Bishop, sometimes Venus, blessing, uniting, marrying and magnetizing the King & Queen. Or, as Death, or soldiers, with swords and scythe, cutting the link and separating them, spilling blood & putting into pieces the King's body.

All black are not the same, as all peacock also...

Schmuldvich
11-24-2016, 04:25 PM
Thanks, Salizius. I was hoping someone knowledgeable would eventually reply...

I follow your blog and have been reading your posts on this site for over 5 years now. You (and a very select few others here) seem to have a sound grasp on Alchemical principles and your posts display an actual understanding of Alchemy that parallels my own understanding. While I do love discussing Alchemy with those who have differing viewpoints, not very much comes out of it at the end of the day when everything is all said and done. It is refreshing to read a post, such as yours below, that shows a true comprehension and actual understanding of our Operations. I started this thread in hopes that those more knowledgeable and experienced than me would reveal their faces.



Blackness is an interaction of the Principles, as a Chaos. Or disequilibrated phase of arrangement of the elements. It is a medium phase between two equilibriums. It is also sometimes seen as a paradoxical phase, because the Principles are almost in fusion, but not able to, and also in the state of separation, but not able to separate exactly and really. A Turba. A Massa-Turba/tio or action to make something to get out.

YES!! Your description here is spot-on! I like how you say, "the Principles are almost in fusion, but not able to, and also in the state of separation, but not able to separate exactly and really." Fantastic depiction!



Putrefactio has two major phases.

The first one is the peeling and removing the flesh/sulfur from the body (salt) and releasing the principles of the matter. This is the breaking down. Solve. Separatio. Once the bones are cleaned from flesh, a new body can be construct upon it.

YES! This is the particular stage of Putrefaction I started this thread about--our initial Putrefaction. If you wouldn't mind sharing, I would love to hear more from out about this particular Stage of the Great Work. Surely Evaporation is a part of this stage. Everyone goes about this differently though. Some divide their Matter, some use overhead heat, some use heat under the vessel, etc. Can you describe this Process in more detail, Salazius?



But, by conjunctioof Salt and Sulfur (Red King and White Queen, Sun and Moon), via the Mercury effect, there is a fusion of both, and generating a New Black. So, Conjunctio is the New Black.

YES! I, too, refer to this stage as Conjunction. It is my understanding as well that at this stage, as you point out, we witness a new Blackness. This part is far from me though, and at this moment I have no experience under my belt to legitimately comment on this later Process. ...Although! We do know that there is a "less noble" way of working involving common gold. When following this "less noble" path, could this Stage be carried out sooner rather than later assuming one knows what his final objective is? Curious your thought on this.



There is several "blackness", and they all involve Mercury as responsible for this. He is the one that marries the Principles or make them divorce. So, in its action, Mercury acts as Cupid or a Bishop, sometimes Venus, blessing, uniting, marrying and magnetizing the King & Queen. Or, as Death, or soldiers, with swords and scythe, cutting the link and separating them, spilling blood & putting into pieces the King's body.

All black are not the same, as all peacock also...

YES! Here you bring up "Mercury", the most overused word of the Sages, haha. In this context I will assume you are referring to our middle substance, Mercury, that which acts as a magnet drawing the powers above to itself and the powers below to itself while residing in the middle of these two Extremes, being that you say this Mercury "marries the Principles or makes them divorce". Then you bring up Venus; and while our Venus could be referred to as Mercury (and commonly is), in this context you post I would be of the understanding that our Mercury here is liquid whereas our Venus here is solid. Do we agree? How would you describe "our Mercury" or "our Venus"?

z0 K
11-24-2016, 04:31 PM
Blackness is an interaction of the Principles, as a Chaos. Or disequilibrated phase of arrangement of the elements. It is a medium phase between two equilibriums.

It is also sometimes seen as a paradoxical phase, because the Principles are almost in fusion, but not able to, and also in the state of separation, but not able to separate exactly and really.

A Turba. A Massa-Turba/tio or action to make something to get out.

Putrefactio has two major phases.

The first one is the peeling and removing the flesh/sulfur from the body (salt) and releasing the principles of the matter. This is the breaking down. Solve. Separatio.

Once the bones are cleaned from flesh, a new body can be construct upon it.

But, by conjunctioof Salt and Sulfur (Red King and White Queen, Sun and Moon), via the Mercury effect, there is a fusion of both, and generating a New Black. So, Conjunctio is the New Black.

There is several "blackness", and they all involve Mercury as responsible for this. He is the one that marries the Principles or make them divorce.

So, in its action, Mercury acts as Cupid or a Bishop, sometimes Venus, blessing, uniting, marrying and magnetizing the King & Queen. Or, as Death, or soldiers, with swords and scythe, cutting the link and separating them, spilling blood & putting into pieces the King's body.

All black are not the same, as all peacock also...

Great insight and quotes, indeed all blacks are not the same. Dragon Scales are produced from dry putrefaction, a medium phase:-) Wet putrefaction is another way being knocked around on another thread mincing and rotting the matter:-) That’s the long way:-(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22cFjxHEoBY&feature=youtu.be

Salazius
11-24-2016, 04:58 PM
@Schmuldvich

I'm glad this post could bring up some informations.


Surely Evaporation is a part of this stage. Everyone goes about this differently though. Can you describe this Process in more detail, Salazius?

Technique here is irrelevant since, depending of the matter and way, it will take different forms.
The process is just at first saturnian and then lunar, leading to whitness.


We do know that there is a "less noble" way of working involving common gold.
When following this "less noble" path, could this Stage be carried out sooner rather than later assuming one knows what his final objective is? Curious your thought on this.

I don't get you. There's no sooner or later.
Why less noble with gold ?


Then you bring up Venus; and while our Venus could be referred to as Mercury (and commonly is), in this context you post I would be of the understanding that our Mercury here is liquid whereas our Venus here is solid. Do we agree? How would you describe "our Mercury" or "our Venus"?

In the context of my post there is no such differentiation.
They are just illustration of the same principle.

Now, specifically, depending of the authors, depending of the context, the "Mercury" can be as Lunar Doves, Venussian Cupid, Mercurial Hermes with wings, or even Saturn with wings. Sometime also as Jupiter and his golden shower.

Some nomenclature are different pointing the same thing with a different name. We can't say Mercury is liquid or Venus solid. In a dry path it is solid in cold state and liquid in fusion.

Also, in Alchemy, there is no "wet or dry path". There's only fusion. That's how elements interact, in a "fused medium", whatever the temperature needed to fuse the medium.

Schmuldvich
11-24-2016, 05:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22cFjxHEoBY&feature=youtu.be

So...What are we looking at, z0_K?




What are these "black scales of the alchemical dragon"?


http://i.imgur.com/E3FkiLr.jpg



What is this "frost of the dragon's breath"?


http://i.imgur.com/2t6rnEf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8PDcTMm.jpg



What is contained in the flask in the background? What is the yellow juice in the flask in the foreground?


http://i.imgur.com/EgOdkP9.jpg



Nice lab, man! Great to see you taking pictures and videos chonologicalizing your progress and discoveries. Thank you for sharing your work with us!




What was your starting matter?


http://i.imgur.com/8tf1JDc.jpg





http://i.imgur.com/0OL2fHs.jpg



What is this clear liquid in the receiver?


http://i.imgur.com/BFEiEil.jpg



Is this your matter drying out?


http://i.imgur.com/E6zs3Cc.jpg



I'm loving the 1080p video. Great quality!




What, in normal English, is this raw ruddy toad?


http://i.imgur.com/XpTqayx.jpg



What is this salt of the toad that your call first eagle?


http://i.imgur.com/ktVktvn.jpg



What is this dragon's blood you are showing us?


http://i.imgur.com/9VsDjsY.jpg



What is this alchemystic fire?


http://i.imgur.com/9C6JyMG.jpg



Also, why is it relevant that your matter dissolves in liquid (http://i.imgur.com/q6bRlz2.jpg)?

Schmuldvich
11-24-2016, 06:12 PM
@Schmuldvich

I'm glad this post could bring up some informations. Technique here is irrelevant since, depending of the matter and way, it will take different forms. The process is just at first saturnian and then lunar, leading to whiteness.

Always appreciate you sharing!

________________

Note: Off-topic continued here: Alchemical Paths (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4991-Alchemical-Paths-Wet-Dry-Long-Short-Rich-Poor-Noble-Ignoble)


--------------------------------------------

Kiorionis
11-24-2016, 07:35 PM
It is my understanding that there is a "Noble Way" that does not use common gold in the preparatory stages, and a "Less Noble Way" that involves the use of common gold as a means of shortening the length of time of some of our Operations.


In my mind, this is the different between trying to putrefy an impure substance ('Our Mercury' and common gold) and a pure substance ('Our Mercury' and 'Our Gold').

The putrefaction will take longer with an impure substance because there is more resistance to the putrefactive force.


Also, in Alchemy, there is no "wet or dry path". There's only fusion.

________________

Note: Off-topic continued here: Alchemical Paths (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4991-Alchemical-Paths-Wet-Dry-Long-Short-Rich-Poor-Noble-Ignoble)


--------------------------------------------

Schmuldvich
04-24-2017, 02:05 AM
Is anyone able to come forward and speak of how they achieved a successful putrefaction? ...Has anyone here at all achieved anything like the Ancients described as Putrefaction?

z0 K, can you talk any more about "our Toad" or the "Philosophical Matter" you showed us in your videos?

z0 K
04-24-2017, 04:33 PM
Is anyone able to come forward and speak of how they achieved a successful putrefaction? ...Has anyone here at all achieved anything like the Ancients described as Putrefaction?

z0 K, can you talk any more about "our Toad" or the "Philosophical Matter" you showed us in your videos?

There are two kinds of putrefaction wet and dry. Wet is when you chop up a fresh herb, seal it in a vessel in its own juices and leave it in a warm place for weeks; this is not the only wet putrefaction method. It produces a rotten putrid mess of foul humors and stinking spirits. Then you process it as best as you can according to your understanding. Dry is when you heat the herb in a closed system until the spirits rise above and the earth below is black.

The Quotes you provided in the first post on this thread are about dry putrefaction. The ones from Roger Bacon and Synesius provide the clearest description of the whole process. It is confusing and doesn’t make much sense until you see the elements in the flask metamorphose in the dry putrefaction. After the volatile elements rise what is left in the flask is black basaltic earth.


Avicen saith, that heat causeth blackness first, in a moist body; then the humidity being consumed, it putteth off or loseth its blackness; and as the heat increaseth, or is continued, so it grows white. Lastly, by a more inward heat, it is calcined into ashes, as the philosophers teach. In the first decoction, which is called putrefaction, our stone is made all black, to wit, a black earth, by the drawing out of its humidity; and in that blackness, the whiteness is hidden.


...and make it hot in its place, well-prepared, with temperate heat, for the space of a Philosophical Month, keeping it six weeks and two days in the sweat of Sublimation until it begins to be putrefied, to ferment, to be coloured and to be congealed with its metallic humidity, and be fixed so far, that it do no more ascend in aery fumous substance, but remain fixed in the bottom, turned from what it was, and divested of all viscous humidity, putrefied and black, which is called the sable robe, Night, or the Head of the Crow. Continue therefore its decoction with a gentle fire, until all the black matter appearing in the superficies be quite dissipated by the Magistery, which blackness is by the Philosophers called the dark mantle of the Stone, which afterwards becoming clear is termed the cleansing water of the earth, or rather the Elixir. And note, that the blackness which appears is a sign of putrefaction. And the beginning of the dissolution is a sign of the conjunction of both natures. And this blackness appears sometimes in forty days, more or less, according to the quantity of the matter, and the industry of the operator, which contributes much to the separation of the said blackness.

The above quotes describe the matter that remains in the flask. The authors have taken the operations out of context to confuse those that have no experience in the lab. Different operations are conflated to confuse even more.


Book of Artephius, 1150
From the putrefaction therefore in this water, there first appears blackness, like unto broth wherein some bloody thing is boiled.

Artephius is describing the condition of the water received from the putrefaction. It is black broth with bloody coagulations of tar.

The Toad is the result when the elements of the putrefaction have been purified and combined. That is the mercurial waters and the fixed salts purified with the fire and air elements are combined and rectified several times. The elements received from the putrefaction are philosophical because Spiritus Mundi and Anima Mundi from the once living matter are entangled in the chaos of the putrefaction. Care must be taken to not lose them by excessive heat and bad seals in the system. This is one way of processing the philosophical elements.

The videos are to show the philosophical processing used in alchemical engineering. You will never see anything like that employing the usual spagyrical methods commonly taught these days. The protocols in the videos are the same for the work on metals. There are other methods that produce organic quintessence stones.

Dwellings
04-24-2017, 05:21 PM
Is anyone able to come forward and speak of how they achieved a successful putrefaction? ...Has anyone here at all achieved anything like the Ancients described as Putrefaction?

Alchemy as you know is an all or nothing proposition. Either you know it or you don't.
So, no need to worry about putrefaction. It is simply another rotation of the wheel.
Stop giving it much thought, rather focus on the overall process.

Schmuldvich
04-25-2017, 11:58 PM
Thank you for taking the time to respond, z0 K. Very insightful.

What would you say is the stage before Putrefaction?

What happens after Putrefaction?

Have you any insight into obtaining "our Alkahest"...a Liquor that dissolves metals like ice in hot water?



Alchemy as you know is an all or nothing proposition. Either you know it or you don't. So, no need to worry about putrefaction. It is simply another rotation of the wheel.
Stop giving it much thought, rather focus on the overall process.

As an aspiring Alchemist, how can you possibly say this?

Putrefaction is absolutely critical when preparing things Alchemically. Without it we toil in vain. Apparently not many people recognize this or want to believe it, because so very few focus on this fundamental aspect of the Art. Without Putrefaction there can be no Generation.

Without Putrefaction we achieve nothing. Through Putrefaction we accomplish everything.

Kiorionis
04-26-2017, 12:29 AM
Without Putrefaction we achieve nothing. Through Putrefaction we accomplish everything.

In my own opinion, incorrect. I would say:

Without 'proper preparation' we achieve nothing.
Through 'proper preparation' we achieve philosophic putrefaction.

This is why Dwellings, IMO states:


Alchemy as you know is an all or nothing proposition. Either you know it or you don't. So, no need to worry about putrefaction. It is simply another rotation of the wheel.
Stop giving it much thought, rather focus on the overall process.

I interpret this as: alchemy, as proposition, is not a Law or a Theory or even Correct. It is a Hypothesis. Either your experiments are based on this hypothesis or you've submitted to the theory. If you focus so much on putrefaction, and the theory of putrefaction, you are limiting yourself only to one variable in a very complex formula.

My own formula at this point in Time is: Preparation, Putrefaction, What-Comes-Next?

I currently do not care about the What-Comes-Next.

Dwellings
04-27-2017, 04:02 PM
As an aspiring Alchemist, how can you possibly say this?

Putrefaction is absolutely critical when preparing things Alchemically. Without it we toil in vain. Apparently not many people recognize this or want to believe it, because so very few focus on this fundamental aspect of the Art. Without Putrefaction there can be no Generation.

Without Putrefaction we achieve nothing. Through Putrefaction we accomplish everything.

There are 7 rotations of the wheel, indicating 7 planetary regimens. Putrefaction is the Regimen of Saturn. Nothing more, nothing less.

Adepts came up with their usual distration tactics and many unfortunately have fallen for it. My personal opinion is not to fall for it and try to understand "what, why and how" aspects of these 7 rotations

Luxus
04-27-2017, 05:17 PM
Not all wheels have the same number of spokes, I have seen 4 spoked wheels, 7 spoked wheels and 12 spoked wheels.

Schmuldvich
12-13-2017, 12:50 AM
There are two kinds of putrefaction wet and dry. Dry is when you heat the herb in a closed system until the spirits rise above and the earth below is black.

Thank you for the reply!

Is this the same as what one could call burning, or are you specifically referring to lower temperatures used doing our Work?

black
07-14-2018, 09:39 AM
Hello Mr. Schmuldvich .... how long do you think Our Blackness / Putrefaction lasts for ?

Hours, days, weeks, months ..... ?

elixirmixer
07-14-2018, 11:21 AM
Ooo oo oo! Me me me! Pick me!

Our Blackness takes [a certain amount of time] however it LASTS.. indefinitely.... until one begins to slightly raise heat, and dry out its moisture. The blackness is because of its warm, moist qualities. When slowly dried, and its superfluous moisture removed, then the whitness is brought forth; unless over cooked, in which case a redness will come before the whitness and all is lost.

(This is obviously just my opinion amd theory)
((Please refer to ICH))

elixirmixer
07-14-2018, 11:29 AM
Putrefaction is the Regimen of Saturn. Nothing more, nothing less.

The planetary regimens only begin after one has accomplished the rebis. After which; there is the regimen of Saturn.

However, we require a putrefaction prior in order to reach this stage.

So... a little more, or a little less, depending from what angle your looking at it.

Would i be wrong in roughly quoting Salazius off the top of my head by saying:
There is more than one blackness

And Schmuldvich when he said:
I agree

With patronizing love. (More love than patronizing, i assure you) :o

black
07-14-2018, 01:13 PM
((Please refer to ICH))

Mr. Mixer

Thank you ... I will peruse the ICH and see what I can find about Our Blackness.

Seraphim
07-14-2018, 03:32 PM
What color comes before Putrefaction?

Schmuldvich
07-14-2018, 04:13 PM
Hello Mr. Schmuldvich .... how long do you think Our Blackness / Putrefaction lasts for ? Hours, days, weeks, months ..... ?

Our Humbled Elixirmixer started to answer the question quite satisfactory!




Ooo oo oo! Me me me! Pick me! Our Blackness takes [a certain amount of time] however it lasts indefinitely until...

Yes!

Putrefaction, as all the texts echo, takes approximately one Philosophical Month for our Matter to become the blackest of the Black if the method of working is proper and in alignment with the Sages.

Just like is affirmed above, this Blackness can indeed last indefinitely until the Artist decides to further augment his Matter.


I decided not to quote the rest of Elixirmixer's response because I do not fully agree with all he said, but the section that I quoted I am full in agreement with.


Our Decently Humbled Andro bastardized the method of the Masters but attained seemingly good results in the following picture


https://i.imgur.com/ocReoeP.jpg

He later experimented with some acorns and attained a similar colored matter, yet this time his putrefied matter has more viscosity as can be seen in the following image


https://i.imgur.com/ZmgqHwT.jpg

If you ever watched z0 K's videos you can see what he calls his Dragon in this frame from one of his videos


http://i.imgur.com/9VsDjsY.jpg

All these images are great and give us an idea of what we should be aiming for.

But one of the only images publicly available on the internet of a real, true, actual Philosophical Putrefaction is shown in this photo from Krisztian


https://i.imgur.com/h60iRg0.jpg

This is one of my favorite present day Alchemy photos.


Look back in this thread [Our Blackness: Putrefaction] to see an image from Chasm depicting our Matter post-Putrefaction.

In fact, if you dig through Alchemy Forums you might be able to find some other quality posts and pictures of value from this member.


Elsewhere on this forum I as well have posted a cropped picture of our Matter exiting the reign of Saturn and entering the reign of Jupiter, although I may have gone and deleted it.



What color comes before Putrefaction?

Many of the Ancients often described our Matter as an oroborus.


https://i.imgur.com/VT8qPfX.jpg

If the beginning can be seen esoterically as the end, and the end can be esoterically viewed as the beginning, one could assert that if there is a color that comes before Putrefaction this color would be the same color as the product of what can be realized through employing our method Projection with the Philosopher's Stone.

JDP
07-14-2018, 06:08 PM
how long do you think Our Blackness / Putrefaction lasts for ?

Hours, days, weeks, months ..... ?

It depends, because there's actually two "blackenings". The first one appears during the conjuction of the substances that will form the "Magnesia" (a favorite deckname of the old alchemists for their secret initial mixture, when these substances seem to eventually "unite" and form "one thing"), while the second one happens when the "white/silvery/leafy/foliated earth", or "body", or "second body" (more decknamen from the older authors) is given portions of its "water" (which was previously separated from the compounded "Magnesia" through a series of digestions, distillations and cohobations until it retains inside itself the "sulphur", "dye", "tincture" or "soul" of the metallic "body"; the "redness" hidden inside their "silvery/milky/Lunar/white water", which will eventually manifest itself during the "coctions") and gradually "cooked" into the Stone. This was the favorite method of the older alchemists. Greek, Arabic and Persian sources are full of allusions and explanations regarding this "Magnesia" method. Later on, other methods became more popular (like the "Gum Adrop", "Sericon", "Red Lead", "Azoquean Vitriol", etc. methods), where the white & red "oils/waters/mercuries" were actually separated from each other. Another method, which is actually quite old (the oldest mention of it discovered so far is in the alchemical dialogue between King Marqunis and King Sanfaja) but not as well-known, was to prepare the "water" or solvent in a "dry" or solid form. Johann Grashoff, for example, used a method with the "water" prepared in its dry/solid form (his "White Lily".)

Andro
07-14-2018, 06:16 PM
Our Decently Humbled Andro bastardized the method of the Masters but attained seemingly good results in the following picture

LOL

Bastardized? Bastardized what? Careful with such strong-worded statements :)

I think that was almost almost 9 years ago, it was just a simple extraction, no claims (or evidence) of genuine Alchemical putrefaction that I recall, or anything even remotely similar.

Schmuldvich
07-14-2018, 06:19 PM
LOL Bastardized? Bastardized what? Careful with such strong-worded statements :)

I think that was almost almost 9 years ago, it was just a simple extraction, no claims (or evidence) of genuine Alchemical putrefaction that I recall, or anything even remotely similar.

My point exactly.

You mentioned that you added something to it (with a "K" I believe) in order to accelerate the process if I remember correctly.



It depends, because there's actually two "blackenings". The first one appears during the conjuction of the substances that will form the "Magnesia" (a favorite deckname of the old alchemists for their secret initial mixture, when these substances seem to eventually "unite" and form "one thing")

When you did this with your work, how long did it take your matter to turn completely Black?



the second one happens when the "white/silvery/leafy/foliated earth" is given portions of its "water" and gradually "cooked" into the Stone.

In your experience, what length of time did it take after your first Putrefaction was complete for this foliated Earth to appear?

What did this foliated Earth taste/smell like...?

JDP
07-14-2018, 06:34 PM
When you did this with your work, how long did it take your matter to turn completely Black?

For the combinations I have investigated so far, the "blackness" is reached rather rapidly. When the initial substances fuse and combine, the "darkness" appears.



In your experience, what length of time did it take after your first Putrefaction was complete for this foliated Earth to appear?

What did this foliated Earth taste/smell like...?

I haven't gotten that far yet. Investigation is still regarding the initial parts (the most difficult to unravel.) But I have obtained similar products as the "Ryme", or "Crown of Victory", or "Silver Filings", or "Arsenic", etc. described in many texts. They have peculiar strong smells. And so do the liquid/liquids obtained. Many alchemists called these liquids "stinking menstruums" for very good reasons!

Florius Frammel
07-14-2018, 06:43 PM
Wow,
thanks JDP!
That were very interesting informations!

Seraphim
07-14-2018, 09:21 PM
Thank you Schmuldvich. I am not familiar with Projection but I will try to read more about it.

black
07-15-2018, 03:30 AM
Thank you all for these comments.
This thread on Our Blackness: Putrefaction is such an interesting subject of inquiry
and it is so good to hear the views from members working in their labs on this Blackness.


Our Blackness takes [a certain amount of time] ....... ?????
however it LASTS.. indefinitely....

Mr. Mixer and Mr. Schmuldvich are suggesting that the Blackness remains till the alchemist chooses to move it on by removing the moisture.

Mr. JDP is suggesting that his Blackness is reached rather rapidly ... ?
Rather rapidly .... implies to me that this material is placed into a very hot fire.

To my understanding ....... once the vessel is sealed and the alchemical work starts with the heating to the Blackness (hours, days, weeks) ???..... then the continuing operation through the various color changes is in the hands of nature.

JDP
07-15-2018, 04:23 AM
Thank you all for these comments.
This thread on Our Blackness: Putrefaction is such an interesting subject of inquiry
and it is so good to hear the views from members working in their labs on this Blackness.



Mr. Mixer and Mr. Schmuldvich are suggesting that the Blackness remains till the alchemist chooses to move it on by removing the moisture.

Mr. JDP is suggesting that his Blackness is reached rather rapidly ... ?
Rather rapidly .... implies to me that this material is placed into a very hot fire.

To my understanding ....... once the vessel is sealed and the alchemical work starts with the heating to the Blackness (hours, days, weeks) ???..... then the continuing operation through the various color changes is in the hands of nature.

You are thinking of the "second blackness", when the "body" or "earth" is gradually given portions of its "water" and "cooked". The older alchemists often divided the "water" into 9 parts, and "fed" 1 part of the "earth" or "body" with them. 3 parts of the "water" to 1 of the "earth/body" made the white Elixir/Stone. During this "coction" is when the "second blackness" appears. The remaining 6 parts of the "water" were used to make the red Elixir/Stone by taking the white Elixir/Stone and continue to gradually "feed" and "cook" it.

The later alchemists, who used methods that separated the white "water/oil/mercury" from the red one, instead of joining both of them together into one "water" (white/silvery/milky on the "outside", but carrying the "redness" hidden inside it), used the white one to make the white Elixir/Stone first, and then used the red one to continue to the the red Elixir/Stone.

elixirmixer
07-15-2018, 05:30 AM
Wow JDP. Nice. Thank you veeeery much.

Seraphim
07-15-2018, 04:29 PM
JDP thanks for sharing. Why do you think there are so many different proportions mentioned in the texts?

JDP
07-15-2018, 07:13 PM
JDP thanks for sharing. Why do you think there are so many different proportions mentioned in the texts?

Because it can actually work with several of them, it is not a strictly necessary thing to stick to one proportion. Some alchemists preferred to add smaller amounts of "water" at a time so that the "cooking" of the "earth/body" would not take too long. They usually called adding too much "water" the "drowning" or "flood". Others did not mind adding larger amounts at a time, but each "coction" would then take longer for the "water" to undergo the changes in order to congeal/coagulate with its "earth/body".

Michael Sternbach
07-15-2018, 07:37 PM
You are thinking of the "second blackness", when the "body" or "earth" is gradually given portions of its "water" and "cooked". The older alchemists often divided the "water" into 9 parts, and "fed" 1 part of the "earth" or "body" with them. 3 parts of the "water" to 1 of the "earth/body" made the white Elixir/Stone. During this "coction" is when the "second blackness" appears. The remaining 6 parts of the "water" were used to make the red Elixir/Stone by taking the white Elixir/Stone and continue to gradually "feed" and "cook" it.

Which alchemist(s) used these exact proportions? I would appreciate if you could refer me to a text.


The later alchemists, who used methods that separated the white "water/oil/mercury" from the red one, instead of joining both of them together into one "water" (white/silvery/milky on the "outside", but carrying the "redness" hidden inside it), used the white one to make the white Elixir/Stone first, and then used the red one to continue to the the red Elixir/Stone.

Schmuldvich
07-15-2018, 11:10 PM
Michael Sternbach, have you read any of the texts from Rumelius?



For the combinations I have investigated so far, the "blackness" is reached rather rapidly. When the initial substances fuse and combine, the "darkness" appears.

Perhaps these combinations you are investigating are not what Alchemists used, knew would work, or ever worked with...?

Alchemy is a guarded art, and countless terms were employed to obscure what was actually being utilized in their labs.

If what you experiment with does not parallel the words of the Masters, maybe you have yet to find what the Sages actually worked with. Have you ever considered this...?





Question. In your experience, what length of time did it take after your first Putrefaction was complete for foliated Earth to appear...?

I haven't gotten that far yet. Investigation is still regarding the initial parts (the most difficult to unravel.) But I have obtained similar products as the "Ryme", or "Crown of Victory", or "Silver Filings", or "Arsenic", etc. described in many texts. They have peculiar strong smells. And so do the liquid/liquids obtained. Many alchemists called these liquids "stinking menstruums" for very good reasons!

How far have you gotten...?

(I am not asking about transmutational chemistry, spagyrics, chymistry, or archemy here; I am asking about Alchemy--the process of making the Philosopher's Stone)

Have you made our Universal Solvent...?

I have read many of your posts on Alchemy Forums, and while you obviously have abundant scholarly knowledge it appears that your experience with Alchemy is severely limited.

Most of your posts speak from a viewpoint of knowledge, yet if we investigate your posts on this website further we see the majority of what you post, while implied as fact, is nothing more on your end than conjecture and theory based on what you have read.



Thank you Schmuldvich. I am not familiar with Projection but I will try to read more about it.

The Ancients generally referred to Projection as the process of "making gold" with the Philosopher's Stone.



To my understanding ....... once the vessel is sealed and the alchemical work starts with the heating to the Blackness (hours, days, weeks) ???..... then the continuing operation through the various color changes is in the hands of nature.

The subsequent changes of our Matter are just as much in the hands of Nature and they are in the hands of the Artist during this time.

We, as Artists, must assist Nature so that our end goal may be attained.



The older alchemists often divided the "water" into 9 parts, and "fed" 1 part of the "earth" or "body" with them. 3 parts of the "water" to 1 of the "earth/body" made the white Elixir/Stone. During this "coction" is when the "second blackness" appears. The remaining 6 parts of the "water" were used to make the red Elixir/Stone by taking the white Elixir/Stone and continue to gradually "feed" and "cook" it.

The later alchemists, who used methods that separated the white "water/oil/mercury" from the red one, instead of joining both of them together into one "water" (white/silvery/milky on the "outside", but carrying the "redness" hidden inside it), used the white one to make the white Elixir/Stone first, and then used the red one to continue to the the red Elixir/Stone.



JDP thanks for sharing. Why do you think there are so many different proportions mentioned in the texts?


Because it can actually work with several of them, it is not a strictly necessary thing to stick to one proportion. Some alchemists preferred to add smaller amounts of "water" at a time so that the "cooking" of the "earth/body" would not take too long. They usually called adding too much "water" the "drowning" or "flood". Others did not mind adding larger amounts at a time, but each "coction" would then take longer for the "water" to undergo the changes in order to congeal/coagulate with its "earth/body".

I agree with JDP here. These 'proportions' are general suggestions and need not be taken literally.

In my experience, these proportions (the pondus) is used as a guidepost with our Work.



one of the only images publicly available on the internet of a real, true, actual Philosophical Putrefaction is shown in this photo from Krisztian


https://i.imgur.com/h60iRg0.jpg

This is one of my favorite present day Alchemy photos.


Ah, look! A very similar photo!


https://i.imgur.com/etodSJo.jpg

elixirmixer
07-15-2018, 11:20 PM
What would we do without you smernoff. Good job.

I believe next week ill be beginning The Work.

JDP
07-16-2018, 12:32 AM
Perhaps these combinations you are investigating are not what Alchemists used, knew would work, or ever worked with...?

Maybe, but there's just too many "coincidences". They "blacken" and "swell", just like the alchemists describe, and give liquid and solid byproducts and leave black/dark sediments/caput-mortuums behind, again, just like the alchemists describe. Not too many things give such results. You have to discover them by a systematic empirical process of trial & error and elimination, aided by the few clues regarding them found here and there among some authors.


Alchemy is a guarded art, and countless terms were employed to obscure what was actually being utilized in their labs.

If what you experiment with does not parallel the words of the Masters, maybe you have yet to find what the Sages actually worked with. Have you ever considered this...?

Yes, but like I said, the "coincidences" between what I do and what they describe are too many to ignore.



How far have you gotten...?

(I am not asking about transmutational chemistry, spagyrics, chymistry, or archemy here; I am asking about Alchemy--the process of making the Philosopher's Stone)

Have you made our Universal Solvent...?

I have obtained unusual products/byproducts, which seem to match many of the things described in the texts. Investigating what these might do in their turn is more complicated, as it involves long series of distillations, cohobations and/or "coctions", some of which might last days or even weeks to carry out and see if they actually perform what the alchemists describe. This is not as easy to test, as it involves a long series of trials & errors + eliminations. It requires more appropriate lab settings & conditions to perform simultaneous tests than I currently have access to.


I have read many of your posts on Alchemy Forums, and while you obviously have abundant scholarly knowledge it appears that your experience with Alchemy is severely limited.

Most of your posts speak from a viewpoint of knowledge, yet if we investigate your posts on this website further we see the majority of what you post, while implied as fact, is nothing more on your end than conjecture and theory based on what you have read.

For some things I have to rely on what the alchemists themselves say, since I have not been able to carry out the testing further to see if they continue to match many of their descriptions. But when I speak with my own authority, not that of others, is because I have performed such things myself.


I agree with JDP here. These 'proportions' are general suggestions and need not be taken literally.

In my experience, these proportions (the pondus) is used as a guidepost with our Work.

But you are quite wrong about this. There is no "big secret" being revealed here, so when they talk about the proportions they literally mean what they say. One of your big mistakes when reading alchemical texts is that you arbitrarily take everything they say as "not literal" (except for a certain thing that you know about all too well by now; that, for some strange reason, you do keep on totally literally swallowing up, when it in fact is when you should be the most on your guard against, as it appertains to the crucial initial parts and is a very obvious trap, which some alchemists very openly and candidly denounced as a misleading statement and explained what it really means.) But that's NOT how it works. That's not how the alchemists wrote. If that was so, their works would be totally useless, as nothing they wrote could be trusted and could always be arbitrarily called into question by the "it's not literal!" mantra. You have to be on your guard pretty much mostly regarding the subject of the actual substances they used to prepare the Stone: THAT is what they really camouflaged/hid/masked under a barrage of "decknamen", mysterious/obscure utterances and/or deliberately misleading statements. Why? Because without that crucial initial info the rest is actually fairly useless to anyone. So there is no need to lie or try to hide/mask/camouflage something like the proportions of "water" to "earth/body", which without the crucial initial info is in itself pretty trivial info, as you won't be able to get to that part of the work without knowing the more crucial initial stuff first. It's like if I taught you everything about how to make an omelette, EXCEPT the actual ingredients that go into it. Without that crucial initial info, you would be still stumped on how to make what I am describing to you in otherwise plain words. Same with alchemy. So there is no need to try to lie or mislead regarding the later stages of the work. In fact, a whole bunch of alchemical texts deal with nothing except these later stages, leaving the earlier initial parts without even saying a word about them! So, no wonder such type of authors can afford to be as clear as they want: there is no fear that anyone reading them could make the Stone with such mutilated yet still very clear info, since the crucial initial parts are totally missing! If you can't begin, then obviously you also can't get further ahead either, no matter how clearly described to you. So, the clear information dispensed to you about the later parts is still quite useless. Very simple tactic, employed by a drove of alchemists.

JDP
07-16-2018, 12:59 AM
Which alchemist(s) used these exact proportions? I would appreciate if you could refer me to a text.

Read just about any of Ibn Umail's works (so far, only one of them has been completely translated into English and published; look for his Book of the Explanation of the Symbols), who keeps explaining this topic of the "9 to 1" proportions over and over, and over, and over throughout his texts (this 10th century alchemist is one of the best writers on the subject; highly recommended. His works are characterized by a peculiar candid style of wanting to clarify for his readers what the mysterious utterances of many of the older alchemists really actually mean; needless to say, pay ZERO attention to the ridiculous and laughable Jungian misinterpretations of this man's works; for some bizarre and incomprehensible reason, the Jungians have developed a bizarre fixation and fascination with this most commendable alchemist and try to project their anachronistic and mistaken "interpretations" of alchemy on his works), or Dastin's "Mirror of Philosophy" ("Speculum Philosophae"), for example.

Florius Frammel
07-16-2018, 04:24 AM
Read just about any of Ibn Umail's works (so far, only one of them has been completely translated into English and published; look for his Book of the Explanation of the Symbols), who keeps explaining this topic of the "9 to 1" proportions over and over, and over, and over throughout his texts (this 10th century alchemist is one of the best writers on the subject; highly recommended. His works are characterized by a peculiar candid style of wanting to clarify for his readers what the mysterious utterances of many of the older alchemists really actually mean; needless to say, pay ZERO attention to the ridiculous and laughable Jungian misinterpretations of this man's works; for some bizarre and incomprehensible reason, the Jungians have developed a bizarre fixation and fascination with this most commendable alchemist and try to project their anachronistic and mistaken "interpretations" of alchemy on his works), or Dastin's "Mirror of Philosophy" ("Speculum Philosophae"), for example.

I think in the latin world he was known as "senior".
There are some german articles too. Search for

Julius Ruska: Senior Zadith = Ibn Umail. In: Orientalistische Literaturzeitung 31, 1928, ISSN 0030-5383, S. 665–666.
Julius Ruska: Studien zu Muhammad Ibn Umail al-Tamimi's Kitab al-Ma' al-Waraqi wa'l-Ard an-Najmiyah, in: Isis Vol. 24, No. 2 (Feb., 1936), ISSN 0021-1753, S. 310–342.

or
Manfred Ullmann: Die Natur- und Geheimwissenschaften im Islam, Leiden-Köln 1972 (Handbuch der Orientalistik, Erste Abteilung: Der Nahe und der Mittlere Osten, hrsg. von Bertold Spuler, Ergänzungsband VI, 2. Abschnitt), ISBN 90-04-03423-4, S. 217–218.

JDP
07-16-2018, 05:28 AM
I think in the latin world he was known as "senior".
There are some german articles too. Search for

Julius Ruska: Senior Zadith = Ibn Umail. In: Orientalistische Literaturzeitung 31, 1928, ISSN 0030-5383, S. 665–666.
Julius Ruska: Studien zu Muhammad Ibn Umail al-Tamimi's Kitab al-Ma' al-Waraqi wa'l-Ard an-Najmiyah, in: Isis Vol. 24, No. 2 (Feb., 1936), ISSN 0021-1753, S. 310–342.

or
Manfred Ullmann: Die Natur- und Geheimwissenschaften im Islam, Leiden-Köln 1972 (Handbuch der Orientalistik, Erste Abteilung: Der Nahe und der Mittlere Osten, hrsg. von Bertold Spuler, Ergänzungsband VI, 2. Abschnitt), ISBN 90-04-03423-4, S. 217–218.

Yes, that's correct, his name was (rather incorrectly) Latinized as "Senior Zadith, Son of Hamuel" (this comes from some basic misunderstanding of Arabic names: his full name actually was Muhammad Ibn Umail al-Tamimi.) The medieval Latin translator not only had difficulty understanding the author's full name, but he also had a great deal of difficulty translating the author's alchemical poem, Epistle of the Sun to the Crescent Moon, and the author's own prose commentary on the same, The Book of the Silvery Water and the Starry Earth (this one was widely circulated under the quite incorrect title "Tabula Chemica/Chimica/Chymica"!) So much so, in fact, that both texts were not completely translated. The Latin translator gave up about half-way through. Luckily, in 1933 Stapleton and his colleagues in India published a much corrected version of this incomplete Latin translation, thanks to their access to several manuscript copies of the original Arabic text of both works. They also published the entire original Arabic texts (collated from the manuscripts they had access to), plus many translated excerpts from the second half of the treatise, which the medieval Latin translator did not deal with.

z0 K
07-16-2018, 07:28 PM
For the combinations I have investigated so far, the "blackness" is reached rather rapidly. When the initial substances fuse and combine, the "darkness" appears.

I haven't gotten that far yet. Investigation is still regarding the initial parts (the most difficult to unravel.) But I have obtained similar products as the "Ryme", or "Crown of Victory", or "Silver Filings", or "Arsenic", etc. described in many texts. They have peculiar strong smells. And so do the liquid/liquids obtained. Many alchemists called these liquids "stinking menstruums" for very good reasons!


You are thinking of the "second blackness", when the "body" or "earth" is gradually given portions of its "water" and "cooked". The older alchemists often divided the "water" into 9 parts, and "fed" 1 part of the "earth" or "body" with them. 3 parts of the "water" to 1 of the "earth/body" made the white Elixir/Stone. During this "coction" is when the "second blackness" appears. The remaining 6 parts of the "water" were used to make the red Elixir/Stone by taking the white Elixir/Stone and continue to gradually "feed" and "cook" it.

The later alchemists, who used methods that separated the white "water/oil/mercury" from the red one, instead of joining both of them together into one "water" (white/silvery/milky on the "outside", but carrying the "redness" hidden inside it), used the white one to make the white Elixir/Stone first, and then used the red one to continue to the the red Elixir/Stone.
I have made it to the last step before the final coction with the methodology I use in the lab. Ripley's Ryme is the same as Hollandus Dry Water, Salt of the Wise, specifically it is Sal Armoniac. It is possible to go from the initial blackness to the white earth containing the golden Mercury and Sulfur of the philosophers in one operation in one vessel in a matter of 24 hours.

Ripley:
Marrow of Alchemy Chapter 1:
III. And therefore to confirm this, Raymundus saith, O my Son, Our Tincture is drawn out of one Vile thing, and is decked, finished, and ended with another thing which is more Noble; for we do Ferment it with Vulgar Gold: He calls it Vile, because he saith it is sometimes found in Vile Places, as in Old Draughts: also it is Vile, because (as Raymundus saith) it is found not only in a filthy form, and ugly shape, but because it is in every thing, of the which (saith Albertus) is made a Permanent or fixt Water.

I believed that the "Old Draughts" statement from Ripley about from what Raymudus Lullus drew Our Tincture out of was referring to chimney soot. I tested that hypothesis in the lab for many years. The premise is still running strong to this day.

Ripley:
Earth of Philosophical Earth:
1 Take earth of earth, & the brother of the earth, the which is no
2 other thing than the water & fire of an earth most precious,
3 And in the choosing of this earth see that thou be wise. If
4 therefore thou do desirest to make a true elixir, see that of the
5 Earth thereof, thou extractest of our subtile earth
6 fayr & good.

Earth of earth? what could that be? "See that of the Earth thereof, thou extractest of our subtle earth fayr & good."

A subtle Earth would be one that had been distilled or sublimed. That makes some sense to me. And soot fits that description. It is the Earth of the earth (earth being the starting material). Chimney soot is a black shiny metallic looking earth. It is also a fine black powder and an almost sticky stringy delicate thick black deposit at the top of the stack. I use an air tight wood stove with a 12 foot 8 inch diameter stove pipe or column condenser mounted vertically to the stove. I've mapped the magnetic field that has been imprinted into the pipe by the years of dry distilling wood to heat my house. It reverses polarity three times in the 12 feet.

Ripley:
Earth of Philosophical Earth:
For our gold &
23 silver are not those things of which are commonly made
24 vessels for rich & noble men. But they are a sperm

Page 3

1 extracted out of a certain body wherein are all sol & luna,
2 water & earth, fire & air all which things do arise
3 out of one image; but the water of them makes a matrimony
4 in arsenick duely sublimed with nine parts of its own mercury
5 calcined.

I haven't got to the 9 parts of its own mercury to one part of "arsenick." That comes later.

The making of soot is just one way to process the "earth" or starting matter. Grind the soot into a black powder and it becomes "antimony" digest in the right vinegar:

Moysten or put this with the water of the forrest, for
7 in this water the Earth is to be dissoluted for 3 days & that
8 without fire. The which being done separate the subtile from the
9 gross, & evaporate it into a gum, into the likeness of pitch, out of
10 which thou must distill a water, which is our aqua vitae, & our menstruum.
11 After the extraction thereof comes the fire, red as blood &
12 full of facy(perhaps jucy?) The which also being extracted there will
13 remayn in the bottom an earth black as ferment, & ponderous
14 as a metal, in the which earth indeed is hidden a great secret
15 & arcanum, for it is the mother of all things; afterwards

The video "Scales of the Alchemical Dragon" opens with a slow pan of chimney soot taken from the middle of the stove pipe or column. The shiny pieces reminded me of dragon scales thinking of Ripley's versus and scrowles thus the title of the video. The scales were ground into black powder that very much resembles ground stibnite or antimony trisulfide. The powder was packed into a 1000mL long neck flask that was then positioned horizontally into my kiln through the door port. The distillation took about 24 hours to complete with a high temp of 1250F which I held too long and the flask sagged quite a bit but not enough to ruin the work.

The receiver must be chilled with ice or the armoniac will escape. Soot gives the largest amount of sal armoniac per volume of material distilled. In the receiver is the white snow or arsenic which is sublimed sal armoniac. The liquid or water or Mercury is gold colored because the Sulfur Fire is already extremely pure and dissolved into it. The liquid is extremely corrosive. The salt extracted from the soot ashes earth of philosophical earth (not shown in the video) is a beautiful citrine color.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22cFjxHEoBY


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Andro
07-16-2018, 08:00 PM
Hi z0 K,

youtu.be links (such as youtu.be/22cFjxHEoBY in this case) do not work for embedding videos.

You have to use the long link (in this case http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22cFjxHEoBY) and insert it between the video brackets. Just make sure to remove the s from the https

z0 K
07-16-2018, 08:51 PM
Hi z0 K,

youtu.be links (such as youtu.be/22cFjxHEoBY in this case) do not work for embedding videos.

You have to use the long link (in this case http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22cFjxHEoBY) and insert it between the video brackets. Just make sure to remove the s from the https

Much appreciated! Thanks for the info Andro!

elixirmixer
07-16-2018, 08:59 PM
I encourage that you buy and read the up-coming Alchemy Anthology and read and absord my short essay on Death and ressurection.

How is is possible to come to Sal Ammoniac in a day? Sal Ammonica is the regenerated matter of purification. Are you saying that your mayter can go through death and resurrection all in a day?

Blasting black stuff with heat until some salts volatize doesnt leave much room for 'the spirit' to stick around (imo).

Nevertheless your laboratory processes do seem to be more effective and look a damn sight more impressive than your typical spagyrics.... however as far as i can tell, its not alchemy your practising, but an advanced spagyrics.

Do you use putrifaction zOk?

Michael Sternbach
07-16-2018, 09:04 PM
Michael Sternbach, have you read any of the texts from Rumelius?

No, what little I know about the work of Armand Barbault/Rumélius comes from secondary literature. Why?

Michael Sternbach
07-16-2018, 09:11 PM
Read just about any of Ibn Umail's works (so far, only one of them has been completely translated into English and published; look for his Book of the Explanation of the Symbols), who keeps explaining this topic of the "9 to 1" proportions over and over, and over, and over throughout his texts (this 10th century alchemist is one of the best writers on the subject; highly recommended. His works are characterized by a peculiar candid style of wanting to clarify for his readers what the mysterious utterances of many of the older alchemists really actually mean; needless to say, pay ZERO attention to the ridiculous and laughable Jungian misinterpretations of this man's works; for some bizarre and incomprehensible reason, the Jungians have developed a bizarre fixation and fascination with this most commendable alchemist and try to project their anachronistic and mistaken "interpretations" of alchemy on his works), or Dastin's "Mirror of Philosophy" ("Speculum Philosophae"), for example.

Thank you for your recommendation of Ibn Umail - I will look into that author.

Does he (and/or Dastin) cover the "3 to 1" proportion you mentioned as well?

JDP
07-17-2018, 12:37 AM
Thank you for your recommendation of Ibn Umail - I will look into that author.

Does he (and/or Dastin) cover the "3 to 1" proportion you mentioned as well?

Yes, here is an example, from the above referred to Dastin's Mirror of Philosophy:

I say that the first Water is to be divided into three thirds, whereof the first is to impregnate, terminate, and whiten the Earth, but the two other thirds are reserved to rubifie the white Earth, that is to be incerated, and lastly to be whitened: But yet no third (as Democritus upon the Magnesia said) is ingredienced all at once, but every of the thirds is divided into another third, that so the Nine thirds returning to one of Earth, might complete a perfect Decinary. But the three first thirds, are the three first Salsatures to perform the first Dealbation, but the six other remaining thirds are six parts of the Divine Water to consume the second Dealbation. But none of those thirds doth altogether ingredience the whole, and at once, but every part of them one after another is severally imposed in their own season, work and order.

Cited in Arthur Dee's Fasciculus Chemicus, pp 41-42:

https://archive.org/stream/fasciculuschemic00deea#page/40/mode/2up

Dastin was an early 14th century English alchemist, therefore still heavily influenced by Arabic authors, like Ibn Umail ("Senior Zadith".) In those times Latin & vernacular alchemy was still young and mostly based on Arabic sources, they still had not quite gained their own authority, so naturally Dastin stuck with these 9-to-1 classic proportions of "Divine Water" to "Earth" of many of the older alchemists. Notice that Dastin, based on the authority of "Democritus" (another Graeco-Arabic source), also liked to further sub-divide these 3 thirds into 3 more thirds, so as to not "overwhelm" the one part of "Earth" with too much "Water" all at once. Other alchemists preferred to use the 3 thirds all at once and then "cook" for longer times. As pointed out before, the water-to-earth proportions are not 100% strict, they can be varied and still get to the goal, thus why the variety of cited proportions among the alchemists, but some work better than others.

You can find more references to these proportions in the above cited Dastin text, as well as some others cited by Arthur Dee in his book (for example, the "Massa Solis & Lunae", which is also heavily based on Arabic sources and also sticks to these classic proportions.)

Michael Sternbach
07-17-2018, 09:32 AM
Thanks again, JDP.

I dig those early texts, from or close to Arabic Alchemy. They somehow feel 'authentic' to me, whereas later authors are more likely to have gone off on a tangent. (But of course, that needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.)

Andro
07-17-2018, 09:43 PM
Latest off-blackness-putrefaction-topic discussion continued HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3946-Aspects-of-Alchemy&p=58580#post58580).

Schmuldvich
08-12-2018, 02:26 AM
From Philalethes "Marrow Of Alchemy", similar to what Elixirmixer was saying in this post (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?103-Practical-Alchemy-An-Introduction&p=59736#post59736)...


https://i.imgur.com/8UXJvLq.png