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Awani
11-04-2016, 01:30 PM
Everyone has different views on what the Stone is... but maybe it is more enlightening (for us all) to ask this:

So you want to make the Stone. You have made it. You try to make it.

Why?

:cool:

ArcherSage
11-04-2016, 02:52 PM
I think there is a literal stone, but I also believe that there is a spiritual foundation stone that you must have in order to contribute to the great kingdom. These spiritual stones must be in place for the spirit to move on properly, and you must create a pure vessel for the soul. That is my personal pursuit of the stone. I do believe that actions here have an effect on the development of the soul and its ability to shed the weight of the physical world and break free of it. If certain purifications are not achieved while on earth, the soul will be undeveloped and unable to move on to the next plane of existence. That is my personal opinion.

JDP
11-04-2016, 03:49 PM
Gee, what a difficult question! Let's see, the Stone can turn large quantities of cheaper metals into gold and silver thus leaving a huge profit for whoever possess it. So I want to make it because... because... because just like the average Joe out there I want to go through life busting my behind to make a living, working ill-paid jobs, and just love to have to put up with major ungrateful a-holes with attitudes who call themselves "your boss", governments that charge you ever more taxes, frequently worry at the end of the month whether you are going to have enough money left to put food on the table and not have to rely on government cheese handouts, and other such fine "amenities" that life has in store for the average man or woman... Yes, that must really be it!

PS: Anyone who tells you that if they had the Stone they would not take advantage of it is either lying, mad or a millionaire who does not have financial worries of any kind.

Awani
11-04-2016, 04:42 PM
If the purpose is wealth I am sure it is both quicker and easier to take a stock market license.

Also must not those that live in the parts of the world that are "developed" ask themselves if their lot in life is not their own fault (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1559-Your-fault!)? I think so.

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
11-04-2016, 04:46 PM
There are two main reasons why I would try to make it:

1) to understand the philosophy of the Ancients and learn more about the hidden secrets of how Nature works;
2) for health reasons - for acquaintances who are currently suffering and to improve my own health.

The monetary aspect is tempting but it would be problematic. If you were to keep bringing gold to whoever buys gold these days, they would eventually start asking questions, and possibly even report you to the authorities. Then you would have the authorities at your door wondering where and how you acquired all these pounds of gold. So the best you could do is sell a few ounces. Hardly worthwhile.

ArcherSage
11-04-2016, 04:48 PM
Isn't value in the eye of the beholder? Who says Gold will have any value if one is able to produce it in massive amounts..just like old baseball cards, rarity is what makes something truly valuable. Only 144,000 will find this white stone according to John.

"Revelation 14:3–5 (ESV)
And they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. For it is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless."

So you have here in the Bible John stating that this is only achievable through mastery over sexual desires. (I do agree that part of it has to do with energy preservation)

Awani
11-04-2016, 04:50 PM
Hardly worthwhile.

I would agree. Any situation where untaxed money is created there are always more problems. Even the biggest criminals pay taxes, even if their taxes don't go to the government illegal activities are expensive.

It is certainly quicker to start a business, work hard and make enough to be able to buy and hoard gold... than to spend a life time trying to make it from lead etc.

:cool:

Schmuldvich
11-04-2016, 04:59 PM
It is certainly quicker to start a business, work hard and make enough to be able to buy and hoard gold... than to spend a life time trying to make it from lead etc.
Is it though...?


JDP nailed it on the head with his answer. ArcherSage makes great points as well. Who would not want to possess the Philosopher's Stone?

Awani
11-04-2016, 05:02 PM
Possess. Want. Gold. Wealth. Greed.

No wonder Hillary and Trump are the American choices for President. LOL.

Good luck to you.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/maxresdefault_zpsxfiizd8g.jpg

:cool:

Schmuldvich
11-04-2016, 05:17 PM
Possess. Want. Gold. Wealth. Greed.

Was waiting for a post like this in this thread...From the third post on, I felt it was long overdue and soon coming! Allow me to respond.


It is very easy to play the "greed" or "wealth" card in attempts to smear the otherwise noble disposition of Alchemy. But I will ask you this: If someone offered you $10 million dollars cash no strings of any kind attached you would instantly take it (or be a fool not to). The fool--you in this case, dev--says, "No, I would rather bust my ass the rest of my life working menial jobs and earn my own money, thanks".


Other than for argument's sake, how can you or anyone else actually defend this reasoning?

JDP
11-04-2016, 05:36 PM
Was waiting for a post like this in this thread...From the third post on, I felt it was long overdue and soon coming! Allow me to respond.


It is very easy to play the "greed" or "wealth" card in attempts to smear the otherwise noble disposition of Alchemy. But I will ask you this: If someone offered you $10 million dollars cash no strings of any kind attached you would instantly take it (or be a fool not to). The fool--you in this case, dev--says, "No, I would rather bust my ass the rest of my life working menial jobs and earn my own money, thanks".


Other than for argument's sake, how can you or anyone else actually defend this reasoning?

Simple: no one can. Anyone who claims otherwise is full of baloney. They know they would take the money without hesitation. Same with alchemy and the Stone.

JDP
11-04-2016, 05:38 PM
I would agree. Any situation where untaxed money is created there are always more problems. Even the biggest criminals pay taxes, even if their taxes don't go to the government illegal activities are expensive.

It is certainly quicker to start a business, work hard and make enough to be able to buy and hoard gold... than to spend a life time trying to make it from lead etc.

:cool:

Easier said than done! If it was so easy to succeed as you present it above then you would expect the rich to outnumber the not-so-rich, but it's the other way around.

JDP
11-04-2016, 05:43 PM
There are two main reasons why I would try to make it:

1) to understand the philosophy of the Ancients and learn more about the hidden secrets of how Nature works;
2) for health reasons - for acquaintances who are currently suffering and to improve my own health.

The monetary aspect is tempting but it would be problematic. If you were to keep bringing gold to whoever buys gold these days, they would eventually start asking questions, and possibly even report you to the authorities. Then you would have the authorities at your door wondering where and how you acquired all these pounds of gold. So the best you could do is sell a few ounces. Hardly worthwhile.

There are ways around it. Real criminals (which alchemists are not, but honest workers) get away with much more regarding real "dirty" money (which alchemy's artificial precious metals are not, but honestly gained wealth with the sweat of your own brow.) Plus selling a few ounces of gold and silver every now and then would put in your pocket several thousand dollars, enough to last you for a while without having to worry about food, the rent, paying bills, etc. The point is not opulence, but financial security.

Schmuldvich
11-04-2016, 05:56 PM
THE POINT IS NOT OPULENCE, BUT FINANCIAL SECURITY.

Yes!

When people, like dev, who like to play the "greed" card bring up such vitriol as amassing possessions and want, they are factoring in lower human tendencies which we all know is not an issue with a true Alchemist.

It is not about opulence, decadence, or indulgence. It is simply about having financial security. And you could even say it's not even about financial security, but at the end of the day about what we do with that financial security...which is LIVE OUR LIVES AS WE DESIRE without being indebted or relying on anybody for my daily well-being.

Awani
11-04-2016, 06:20 PM
"No, I would rather bust my ass the rest of my life working menial jobs and earn my own money, thanks".

LOL. I see. Only two options.

My final two cents on this matter is: the poor are poor because they want to be rich...

:cool:

Schmuldvich
11-04-2016, 06:52 PM
I see. Only two options.

Plenty more, actually, if you are willing to look at them. For example, someone can inherit a lot of money and be set for life, another person could win the lottery and have all the money he could ever need, someone else could invest a small amount of money in a company that ends up blowing up huge a year later, etc. There are countless examples of poor people spontaneously, or even easily, becoming rich. But again, as JDP pointed out earlier, it is not about riches but about financial security. There are not only two options: 1) Busting ass working menial jobs earning a little bit of money, or 2) Successfully accomplish the Philosopher's Stone. Those are two extremes, yes, but not the only two options. Many options present themselves in the middle of the two. You know this though and for me to continue typing would be a waste of energy...



My final two cents on this matter is: the poor are poor because they want to be rich...

The poor are not poor because they want to be rich. Sure, it has a nice ring to it, but it is nothing more than a laughable statement with no merit.

Wanting to be rich does not make someone poor.

Illen A. Cluf
11-04-2016, 08:23 PM
Being poor or relatively poor, has a lot to do with being overly honest, ethical and saying things which are true regardless of how it hurts. It's almost impossible to move up the ladder of success without being dishonest, using others, lying big time, cheating, being aggressive, etc., unless you happen to inherit a fortune.

I could have been quite well off if I had "played the game" and sucked up to my bosses. Instead, they despised my brutal honesty about how things could be improved, etc., and as a result always passed me over whenever an advancement opportunity presented itself. They preferred leaving things as they were only to make their jobs more easy. I don't mind not being well off as at least I can live with myself.

theFool
11-04-2016, 08:35 PM
For some reason people see money as a means of obtaining what they want. They equate them with food, health and shelter. But in case you get the Stone, you can have those three (and more) without any money.

So, why force a field worker to spend his days doing something he hates in order to create your food. Why force a builder to make your house. Creating and selling gold from the Stone, seems to be a twisted way to use it.

Even if I'm not a fan of "spiritual alchemy" as dev means it, reading his words here I understand its great value.

Ghislain
11-04-2016, 09:07 PM
Plenty more, actually, if you are willing to look at them. For example, someone can inherit a lot of money and be set for life, another person could win the lottery and have all the money he could ever need, someone else could invest a small amount of money in a company that ends up blowing up huge a year later, etc. There are countless examples of poor people spontaneously, or even easily, becoming rich. But again, as JDP pointed out earlier, it is not about riches but about financial security. There are not only two options: 1) Busting ass working menial jobs earning a little bit of money, or 2) Successfully accomplish the Philosopher's Stone. Those are two extremes, yes, but not the only two options. Many options present themselves in the middle of the two. You know this though and for me to continue typing would be a waste of energy...




The poor are not poor because they want to be rich. Sure, it has a nice ring to it, but it is nothing more than a laughable statement with no merit.

Wanting to be rich does not make someone poor.



Have you read The Alchemist, by Paulo Coelho...it will explain what Dev is saying.

Ghislain

Schmuldvich
11-04-2016, 09:30 PM
I have read The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho and conpletely understand what dev is saying. I was just pointing out that his statement, while it sounds good and rolls off the tongue well, does not superficially make very much sense. Poor people are not poor because they want to be rich.

zoas23
11-04-2016, 11:48 PM
Simple: no one can. Anyone who claims otherwise is full of baloney. They know they would take the money without hesitation. Same with alchemy and the Stone.

This is somehow private, but I'll bring it here, I think Dev would not mind.
Some time ago I found myself in a hard situation and Dev himself offered to send me money for free. It was not 10 million dollars, but it was an amount that would have helped.
I thanked him for his kindness and I rejected the offer, because I didn't want to take his money (even knowing that it was not a big burden for him).

You can call Dev a fool for offering money for free and call me a fool too for rejecting the offer.
BUT I know that what Dev says is what Dev does... you may not like his ways, but his words are not simply "hypothetical".

Kiorionis
11-05-2016, 12:02 AM
but his words are not simply "hypothetical".

Funny thing, hypotheticals. The one thing I took away from my university studies in philosophy is that any argument can be supported by a "hypothetical" if it's designed correctly (following the rules of logic).

Throw a few discreet logical fallacies in the mix and you have yourself a politician ;)

I agree with you, Mr. Z

--------------

I want to play on the team that does it purely for the pursuit of wisdom through the knowledge and understanding gained through studying Self and Nature.

And the team that has the best weed.

:cool:

Awani
11-05-2016, 01:25 AM
I want to play on the team that does it purely for the pursuit of wisdom through the knowledge and understanding gained through studying Self and Nature.

You shall be the quarterback.


Poor people are not poor because they want to be rich.

Actually this is exactly the case. Financial poverty is not caused by the lack of money. I don't know if you know this but "rich" people have more debt than poor people. The difference between rich and poor is actually simply the fact that rich people play the game differently. Sure there are those born with a silver spoon in the mouth, but there are just as many people who are born with nothing and create wealth from that.

As for real poverty (not this pseudo-White Mans world poverty) it's the lack of rights that is the cause of poverty, not the lack of wealth... and the fact that WE in the west are vampires. Slavery did not end, we just call it Import/Export. ;)

Financial Security

This is the biggest scam so far. There simply is no such thing. Based on my own experiences in life money has a way to generate itself when you stop trying to get it... because money is just an effect of what people do. Some people can make 1000 dollars triple in three days. Other people commit suicide when they win 1 million dollars. Others can't even get their act together no matter how much they have.

The reason why I don't think the pursuit of making gold is a good idea is because it will only create misery. The moment money is the end of any desire is the moment you start playing Russian roulette. And even if the person who makes the gold is a humble saint that persons friends and family certainly are not. I have seen people become devils over sums no larger than 5000 dollars.

I am certainly not against anyone trying to make physical gold in alchemy. It's a free world as far as I am concerned. I guess in the end I'm just saying: be careful what you wish for

------------------------------------------------

As for menial jobs or shitty jobs... that is about attitude. The shittiest and most menial and meaningless job there is must be a CEO of a bank. No wonder they need coke and whores. I would need those things too just to avoid blowing my brains out. LOL.

Zoas23: I'm just happy it worked out... :)

:cool:

Awani
11-05-2016, 01:28 AM
theFool: :)


Being poor or relatively poor, has a lot to do with being overly honest, ethical and saying things which are true regardless of how it hurts. It's almost impossible to move up the ladder of success without being dishonest, using others, lying big time, cheating, being aggressive, etc., unless you happen to inherit a fortune.

I could have been quite well off if I had "played the game" and sucked up to my bosses. Instead, they despised my brutal honesty about how things could be improved, etc., and as a result always passed me over whenever an advancement opportunity presented itself. They preferred leaving things as they were only to make their jobs more easy. I don't mind not being well off as at least I can live with myself.

I agree... but what is even more amazing is all those poor people in the Western World that are also dishonest, lying, cheating, using aggression... in their attempts to get just a bit of cash... microcosm/macrocosm yet again. Humanity. Sigh. :)

I guess it shows that the character of a person is not related to his wallet.

:cool:

Awani
11-05-2016, 01:40 AM
Although we got a bit derailed I guess so far the reason people try and make the Stone is:

- wealth / gold
- understand Nature
- understand the Self
- understand the ancients
- health reasons

Any other?

I'm actually surprised no one has yet said "live forever". :)

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
11-05-2016, 02:38 AM
I agree... but what is even more amazing is all those poor people in the Western World that are also dishonest, lying, cheating, using aggression... in their attempts to get just a bit of cash... microcosm/macrocosm yet again. Humanity. Sigh. :)

I guess it shows that the character of a person is not related to his wallet.

:cool:
Unfortunately, lying, cheating, aggression, dishonesty is now revered and praised by most Otherwise there would be no such thing as openly corrupt Presidential candidates, for example. Presidents used to be role models for appropriate behavior. Now they're role models for inappropriate behavior.

JDP
11-05-2016, 11:57 AM
Financial Security

This is the biggest scam so far. There simply is no such thing. Based on my own experiences in life money has a way to generate itself when you stop trying to get it... because money is just an effect of what people do. Some people can make 1000 dollars triple in three days. Other people commit suicide when they win 1 million dollars. Others can't even get their act together no matter how much they have.

The reason why I don't think the pursuit of making gold is a good idea is because it will only create misery. The moment money is the end of any desire is the moment you start playing Russian roulette. And even if the person who makes the gold is a humble saint that persons friends and family certainly are not. I have seen people become devils over sums no larger than 5000 dollars.

I am certainly not against anyone trying to make physical gold in alchemy. It's a free world as far as I am concerned. I guess in the end I'm just saying: be careful what you wish for


This post shows how naive you are about such matters (just like your views on empirical reality.) Financial security a "scam"? Methinks you don't know what that means:

https://www.quicken.com/what-financial-security

Also, keep on wishing your money "generates" all by itself like a plant just because you stop worrying about it. It will take you to the poorhouse very fast.

Of course you can make your money "generate" more money (and if you are successful at alchemy that is one possible way of doing it), but you need to know how, have the right connections, experience, etc. That's why people who truly make it big are much less than those who do not.

Andro
11-05-2016, 12:42 PM
Some people are good at creating and managing successful businesses, big, medium or small. Others are comfortable as employees with a steady paycheck, ranging from anywhere between janitor and CEO. Yet others have a gift for trading, investing, etc... Others are simply heirs/trust-fund kids...

I personally only know two multi-millionaires. Both of them keep the majority of what they have in the form of physical gold and silver (bars or coins). They also have stored food and water, emergency supplies as well as generators, to last at least a year.

I know people from almost all the above mentioned categories. None of them feel they are 'financially secure'.

For me, in this reality, being 'financially secure' means to ALWAYS have something of value to trade for (or uninterrupted access to) ANY need that might arise at ANY given time, PLUS having access to a 'market' where such a need will be ALWAYS accessible and up for trade. It also means having the means to keep/prevent your value from being forcefully 'taken' from you (you know by whom). So much for 'financially secure', not taking into account stuff that does not exist on ANY market, such as reversing entropy, for example :)

The much less 'realistic' alternative would be to not have any need whatsoever (no need for food and water... and why not, even air... especially on a submarine :))

So, 'financially secure' is (to me) more of a relative scale than a binary secure/insecure status.

A fully accomplished/realized Adept/Master is (in my personal view) the closest thing to 'financially secure', and I am not talking about making gold. At least not only.

Scaling this up, no UN-transcended entity in the Universe on all its planes can truly be 'financially secure'.

In my view, the Universe operates very much like a business, and it's a bubble that periodically bursts/implodes/resets.

But yes, as JDP pointed out, some (usually a minority) are (temporarily) more 'financially secure' than others. Relatively.

JDP
11-05-2016, 01:09 PM
For some reason people see money as a means of obtaining what they want. They equate them with food, health and shelter. But in case you get the Stone, you can have those three (and more) without any money.

So, why force a field worker to spend his days doing something he hates in order to create your food. Why force a builder to make your house. Creating and selling gold from the Stone, seems to be a twisted way to use it.

Even if I'm not a fan of "spiritual alchemy" as dev means it, reading his words here I understand its great value.

You should read what the alchemists themselves said about this subject, like the likely Byzantine alchemist "Alphidius" (this seems to be the Latinized name of the alchemist called "Asfidus" by the Arabs, who was probably a Byzantine), the Arab alchemist al-Iraqi, or Basil Valentine, they easily answer your questions/objections:

"God-fearing Sages, adds Alphidius, have never carried their jealousy so far as to refuse to unveil this mystery to men of their own way of thinking. But they have carefully concealed it from the multitude, lest there be an end of all sowing, planting, reaping, and of agriculture and work generally. These are very good and humane reasons, then, why this Art should not be revealed to everybody." - "Alphidius", cited by Petrus Bonus in "The New Pearl of Great Price"

"Now the world and its inhabitants are maintained only by the service of some of us to others. This is not because of exaltedness of rank or of distinguished ancestry, but because Divine Providence has made a portion of mankind dependent upon others. In this connection, there are two varieties of dependence, namely dependence for technical ability and dependence for subsistence. Dependence for technical ability is of two orders, that of the rich man and that of the poor man. For if a man relies upon himself in everything, many things throng upon him, since a man needs the builder to guard him from heat and cold, and also a silk-mercer to make clothing for him to protect him; [he needs also] a smith to shape for him implements for agriculture and carpentry, and other tools. Man has need also of many other things in order that his comfort and life may be complete. Arts are thus diversified among men for this reason, and some men are dependent upon others while some are independent. For some men are driven to the arts for the reason that they cannot supply their own [technical] needs, and other men are forced thereto in order to relieve their necessities. Indeed, if all men were equal in prosperity the employment of some by others would be a matter of difficulty, but when a man is in straits he is of necessity driven to accomplish the desires of the affluent in order to obtain from them the wherewithal to live. When philosophers realised this, they became intensely secretive and obscure concerning the preparation of the Elixir, and continually went to excessive lengths in metaphors." - Al-Iraqi, "Book of the Seven Climes".

"This will seem unintelligible to many, and it certainly does make an extraordinary demand upon the mental faculties; but that must be so because the substance is within the reach of everyone, and there is no other way of keeping up the divinely ordained difference between rich and poor." - Basil Valentine's "12 Keys"


These are in fact some of the strongest arguments that the alchemists could find to keep alchemy a "secret" from the majority of the population. Alchemy by its very nature has to be secretive, selective and "elitist", it cannot be a "public domain" knowledge because it would then do damage to society and also end up devaluing itself as well. Sure, alchemy would continue to work producing precious metals even if everyone knew it, that empirical fact would not change, but the two logical consequences would be that: 1- a lot of people will abandon other activities necessary for society to function and devote themselves to making precious metals, and 2- eventually devalue the worth of the very precious metals alchemy produces. It does not take a rocket scientist, then, to see why the alchemists have always been secretive about their "craft". It sure has little to do with some nebulous alleged "spiritual" revelations or reasons, as some people with mystical mindsets imagine and fancy, and much to do with the very real and tangible self-preservation and personal advantage. A modern (late 19th/early 20th century) alchemist everyone should read is the American guy who called himself "Adiramled". He will tell you such things in even plainer words than any alchemist from older times.

Awani
11-05-2016, 01:52 PM
People who are not financially secure are so cute.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/rich_zpsqfjqojpx.jpg (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=condescending%20asshole)

------------------------------------------------------


Some people are... Others are... Yet others have a...

Yes and some are... hm... I wonder...

Whore. Faggot. Sissy. Moron. Scum. Looser. Shithead. Failed abortion. Bitch. Cunt. Asshole.

The list goes on and on. Which is the best word? Help me out...

Sometimes it would be really fun to rape certain people just to see the look on their face. Ha ha ha.

------------------------------------------------------

Now I got to rub one out...

:cool:

Schmuldvich
11-05-2016, 04:39 PM
People who are not financially secure are so cute.

Yes and some are... hm... I wonder...

Whore. Faggot. Sissy. Moron. Scum. Looser. Shithead. Failed abortion. Bitch. Cunt. Asshole.

The list goes on and on. Which is the best word? Help me out...

Sometimes it would be really fun to rape certain people just to see the look on their face. Ha ha ha.

Now I got to rub one out...

...What? :confused:

theFool
11-05-2016, 05:21 PM
...
These are in fact some of the strongest arguments that the alchemists could find to keep alchemy a "secret" from the majority of the population. Alchemy by its very nature has to be secretive, selective and "elitist", it cannot be a "public domain" knowledge because it would then do damage to society and also end up devaluing itself as well. Sure, alchemy would continue to work producing precious metals even if everyone knew it, that empirical fact would not change, but the two logical consequences would be that: 1- a lot of people will abandon other activities necessary for society to function and devote themselves to making precious metals, and 2- eventually devalue the worth of the very precious metals alchemy produces. It does not take a rocket scientist, then, to see why the alchemists have always been secretive about their "craft". You have explained very well why the alchemists keep their craft a secret. It is primarily for dominating and exploiting the rest of humanity.

There might be spiritual reasons also (for example, to not give "matches" to "children") but probably are not the primary reason. If every scientist was thinking like that, we would never have electricity or antibiotics for example.

Andro
11-05-2016, 05:28 PM
I would say there is a difference between making gold and producing electricity or antibiotics...

But even if the knowledge of 'making gold' would be available to everyone, the 'system' has ways of adjusting, so I don't think it wouldn't be an issue for too long...

If the 'Stone' was ONLY about making gold, that is... Which it isn't...

JDP
11-05-2016, 07:07 PM
You have explained very well why the alchemists keep their craft a secret. It is primarily for dominating and exploiting the rest of humanity.

There might be spiritual reasons also (for example, to not give "matches" to "children") but probably are not the primary reason. If every scientist was thinking like that, we would never have electricity or antibiotics for example.

They were not dominating or exploiting anyone, simply maintaining the status quo so that society as they knew it -and we still know it- could keep on functioning without a major disruption. Also keep in mind that they saw this status quo as being "Divinely" ordered (that's the "spiritual reason", but none of them of course had any proof whatsoever regarding this, it was just their assumption that "God" had ordered things to be thus; once again, one has to know how to differentiate between FACTS and BELIEFS.)

Producing electricity and antibiotics is quite a different case than making artificial gold and silver (these metals have been of extreme importance to all the economies of the world since antiquity.) However, the issue of a medicine that can cure a whole bunch of diseases and extend human life would bring its own problem should it also be "released" to the public. Of course, I am talking about a problem that was unknown to people in past centuries, but to us is quite real thanks in fact to things like antibiotics: overpopulation.

Hellin Hermetist
11-05-2016, 08:57 PM
You have explained very well why the alchemists keep their craft a secret. It is primarily for dominating and exploiting the rest of humanity.

There might be spiritual reasons also (for example, to not give "matches" to "children") but probably are not the primary reason. If every scientist was thinking like that, we would never have electricity or antibiotics for example.

Your comparison isnt a good one I think. Alchemists kept their knowledge secrte to earn money from it. Scientists made their knowledge public, also to earn money from it. For example, if Edison has kept his light bulb a secret, how could he have earned all those milions he earned from the sales of this product? He would only have a futuristic product to illuminate his own home, and he had to plow the earth or made some other job to make a living. I dont think that he would like that idea, when he had invested so much money for the research for the light bulb. If Tesla kept his 3-phase motor a secret, and dont make a team with Westinghouse to introduce it to the world, how could he find the money to financial support his future research and experiment? Both alchemists and scientists has tried to earn their livings from their knowledge. Alchemists by hiding it and scientists by introducing it to the public.

theFool
11-06-2016, 08:06 AM
For example, if Edison has kept his light bulb a secret, how could he have earned all those milions he earned from the sales of this product? They don't keep their product secret, but they strive to keep the method of making it secret. In the same way the "goldmaker alchemists" are selling gold but they keep secret the method of producing it. By the moment this method escapes competitors will arise. This will drop the value of gold (or the price of the light bulb in the case of Edison) and so, eventually, they will have to plow the fields like everyone else does (or assimilate/bribe/kill the competitors early).

Tesla is a great example of a humanitarian scientist. He was not a businessman like Westinghouse was. The myth around him says that he was planning to give wireless electric power to the whole globe. Westinghouse sabotaged this plan because the wireless power could not be sold for money; he would have no control over the consumer. So, instead of that, we have wired power and electricity meters everywhere. The plans for the wireless global system have been ignored, hidden and burned. Even Tesla himself was almost erased from the history of electromagnetism despite his great contributions. In the end he died in poverty and this is the best proof that he came here to help humanity evolve and not to exploit our ignorance.

In the case of antibiotics, imagine for example Fleming keeping secret the manufacture method of penicillin and selling a "miracle drug" that cures pneumonia. He would get much richer.

Here, a more modern case:
http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/22/investing/aids-drug-martin-shkreli-750-cancer-drug/
This guy is said to have bought the rights of a drug that is used for AIDS patients and after securing the monopoly, rose its price by 5000%. This is the way to get rich and this is the mind of a successfull businessman. If he was not so greedy, we wouldn't have noticed it and he would have made his fortune like every other successful businessman does.

theFool
11-06-2016, 09:18 AM
They were not dominating or exploiting anyone, simply maintaining the status quo so that society as they knew it -and we still know it- could keep on functioning without a major disruption. The status quo .. monarchy, rulership, kings. Some of those alchemists lived in the court of kings and they were making gold for them. I doubt if any empire would exist without the monopoly of the knowledge of goldmaking. My opinion might be biased, but the status quo they were trying to maintain was oppressive, dominating and profited by keeping the populace in ignorance.

Hellin Hermetist
11-06-2016, 12:10 PM
They don't keep their product secret, but they strive to keep the method of making it secret. In the same way the "goldmaker alchemists" are selling gold but they keep secret the method of producing it. By the moment this method escapes competitors will arise. This will drop the value of gold (or the price of the light bulb in the case of Edison) and so, eventually, they will have to plow the fields like everyone else does (or assimilate/bribe/kill the competitors early).

They keep their method secret for some time, but also they protect it with patents. So, everyone else who want to copy their product later, have to pay good money to them. And the contracts with big companies and the State when you are the only one who owns a product so revolutionary as the light bulb or the 3-phase motor, will give you so much money that you will never have to work for the rest of your life. Thats the reason we never saw Tesla, nor Edison, nor Howard Hughes, nor any other technical scientist of their caliber, to plow the earth to earn his living in any part of their lives. A succesfull alchemist, if one has ever lived in the earth, also kept his method secret and not his product, as many of them openly said that they sold their alchemical produced gold to make a living.


Tesla is a great example of a humanitarian scientist. He was not a businessman like Westinghouse was. The myth around him says that he was planning to give wireless electric power to the whole globe. Westinghouse sabotaged this plan because the wireless power could not be sold for money; he would have no control over the consumer. So, instead of that, we have wired power and electricity meters everywhere. The plans for the wireless global system have been ignored, hidden and burned. Even Tesla himself was almost erased from the history of electromagnetism despite his great contributions. In the end he died in poverty and this is the best proof that he came here to help humanity evolve and not to exploit our ignorance.

Most of the above is wrong. Even if Tesla's wirelles plant was feasible, we should still need to burn coal or some other type of matter to produce the electricity at the generator. Νοw, if we consider that the construction of the central plant should be very expensive and complicated, we can easily see that the existence of a central company, which shall construct the central tower, produce the electricity there and distribute it to the consumers, should be much more essential than today, when everyone can buy a small diesel generator, put it in his garage and power his home from it, if he doesnt want to be connected in the network of a big company. Also, the plans of the wireless system is out there for eveyone to study them, and even trying to reconstruct them, in case he has some millions in his bank account. Tesla died at one of the penthouses of Astoria hotel, one of the best ones of New York city, where he spent the last years of his life. He didnt die poor but not so very rich as he could have been if he kept the money he earned at his earlier years and didnt spend them to new experiments till the end of his life. But this situation couldnt have changed cause if his character I think. If the State paid him three times more money as a pension, he should have also spent them for his experimetns and finally die with the same amount of money in his pocket.

Hellin Hermetist
11-06-2016, 12:26 PM
The most important changes that should happen if an alchemist revelad his secret method of artificial precious metals production to the people I think should be the following:

1) Gold and silver should lost their value and should be sold to the price of lead and iron
2) Rich people and companies, who have invested big sums of money to gold and silver should lose the biggest part of their money
3) Big companies (mainly technological ones) who buy big quantities of gold for their circuits, etc., should find the production cost lowered to a considerable degree
4) Jewelers should have to find a new job (if the secret also includes transormation of brute stones to precious ones, as some alchemists affirm).
5) Maybe the balances between countries who have stocked big quantitites of gold should change
6) The alchemist should have to say goodbye to his financial security, and begin to work in a regular job, earning shit money in comparison with what he can earned if he kept his secret well guarded.
7) All the other ppl should keep working in their jobs without any considerable change in their lives.

From the above conquesences, I believe the only one that makes the alchemist to keep his secret well guarded is the sixth one. In earlier years, some of the alchemists may also was bind by an oath (clerks, monks, cathedral architects, etc.) to not reveal anything of what they leant during their stay in a lodge or brotherhood.

JDP
11-06-2016, 12:55 PM
Tesla is a great example of a humanitarian scientist. He was not a businessman like Westinghouse was. The myth around him says that he was planning to give wireless electric power to the whole globe. Westinghouse sabotaged this plan because the wireless power could not be sold for money; he would have no control over the consumer. So, instead of that, we have wired power and electricity meters everywhere. The plans for the wireless global system have been ignored, hidden and burned. Even Tesla himself was almost erased from the history of electromagnetism despite his great contributions. In the end he died in poverty and this is the best proof that he came here to help humanity evolve and not to exploit our ignorance.

Yes, and look at what happened to him in the end: he lost a lot of money because of his lack of foresight in securing better deals from those taking advantage of his patents, which would have made him a very rich man. Money which would have come in very handy when he was trying to develop the idea of "wireless" electricity. In the long run he had to abandon the project because of lack of funds.

zoas23
11-06-2016, 12:58 PM
The most important changes that should happen if an alchemist revelad his secret method of artificial precious metals production to the people (...)

Funny, I just saw two hours ago a pseudo-alchemist (an illiterate idiot actually) doing it with a very clear public video. It was his "revenge" to another person... plagiarizing him.
And his explanation has a few minor mistakes, but it is very explicit and hits the nail (not the whole process, but the important parts and in a very explicit fashion... maybe the most explicit I've seen in my life).

Will this change the world forever??? I don't think so... The alchemical tradition is 2,000 years old (that's MY opinion... other may take it to the pharaonic egypt, but I don't agree and it's impossible to comprobate it).

A plain "recipe" can be explained in a very clear way without any allegories... and yet Alchemy has the "power" of protecting itself from idiots... because it's a philosophy, not a "recipe".

[I won't share the link anyway, because I don't like the person and I don't like what he did... even if it has some mistakes].

JDP
11-06-2016, 02:07 PM
Funny, I just saw two hours ago a pseudo-alchemist (an illiterate idiot actually) doing it with a very clear public video. It was his "revenge" to another person... plagiarizing him.
And his explanation has a few minor mistakes, but it is very explicit and hits the nail (not the whole process, but the important parts and in a very explicit fashion... maybe the most explicit I've seen in my life).

Will this change the world forever??? I don't think so... The alchemical tradition is 2,000 years old (that's MY opinion... other may take it to the pharaonic egypt, but I don't agree and it's impossible to comprobate it).

A plain "recipe" can be explained in a very clear way without any allegories... and yet Alchemy has the "power" of protecting itself from idiots... because it's a philosophy, not a "recipe".

[I won't share the link anyway, because I don't like the person and I don't like what he did... even if it has some mistakes].

If that was really true then there would not be any need for secrecy at all, you could reveal the entire process in a totally clear manner and nothing would change. Alchemy somehow would continue to "protect itself from idiots". But it is hardly the case. "Philosophy" is speculation and theories, not facts. A real "recipe" is a fact and therefore can be repeated by anyone with enough skill, no matter what one believes in. "Philosophy" won't stop anyone from repeating a real "recipe" for the Philosophers' Stone any more than Buddhism or Chinese folk religion will stop anyone who does not practice or believe in them from carrying out a recipe for stir fried Singapore noodles.

ArcherSage
11-06-2016, 02:21 PM
I believe you can find the secrecy traditions in the Freemasons. The traditions of secrecy have its roots in the Egyptian mystery schools where the priests would do their thing in the Pyramids and go through various initiations, but the public would not know anything that was going on. The tradition of secrecy I am sure had something to do with the fact that Alchemy was a known science to a select few, but it wasn't just alchemy. They were hiding the knowledge of astrology, sacred geometry, and much more. When one becomes a Freemason he takes an oath to never reveal anything under punishment of death. The modern masons may not do this anymore, but there was a time where they took this oath very seriously and would punish the ones who broke it.

theFool
11-06-2016, 03:47 PM
Most of the above is wrong. Even if Tesla's wirelles plant was feasible, we should still need to burn coal or some other type of matter to produce the electricity at the generator. Νοw, if we consider that the construction of the central plant should be very expensive and complicated, we can easily see that the existence of a central company, which shall construct the central tower, produce the electricity there and distribute it to the consumers, should be much more essential than today, when everyone can buy a small diesel generator, put it in his garage and power his home from it, if he doesnt want to be connected in the network of a big company. There is a difference between applying diesel generators for electricity and suppossed Tesla's "global system". Every consumer of diesel has to buy it from the central company, even if he uses it far away. On the contrary, in the "global system" all they have to do is to plant a rod in the earth (plus accompanying electronics) and draw the electricity. There is no practical way to find this consumer and force him to pay money for the electricity. The central plant would have to give it for free, like a public service for example. So, even if Tesla was allowed to build it, I guess his system would not survive in the free market (but probably it would in a communist state).

Some may find this man to be an hopeless idealist, a failure, a looser (or whatever dev called it in a previous post :p ) but is he ..


Yes, and look at what happened to him in the end: he lost a lot of money because of his lack of foresight in securing better deals from those taking advantage of his patents, which would have made him a very rich man. Money which would have come in very handy when he was trying to develop the idea of "wireless" electricity. In the long run he had to abandon the project because of lack of funds. Could it be that Tesla was after something else, higher than being a very rich man at the time of his death? He would not be able to take his fortune with him anyway.

JDP
11-06-2016, 04:31 PM
Could it be that Tesla was after something else, higher than being a very rich man at the time of his death? He would not be able to take his fortune with him anyway.

The problem is that it is those very ideals which eventually prevented him from continuing his experiments. Had he been a little more desirous of personal wealth his research would not have been cut short in the end, he would not have had to depend on any "funding" from investors, he could have financed his own research.

Hellin Hermetist
11-06-2016, 04:42 PM
On the contrary, in the "global system" all they have to do is to plant a rod in the earth (plus accompanying electronics) and draw the electricity.

Not something so simple as a rod but a special constructed coil carefully tuned to the central tower (Magnyfying transmitter was the name Tesla gave to the central tower-coil),



There is no practical way to find this consumer and force him to pay money for the electricity. The central plant would have to give it for free, like a public service for example. So, even if Tesla was allowed to build it, I guess his system would not survive in the free market (but probably it would in a communist state).


Believe me, if Morgan hadnt stopped to fund Tesla and if the system had at last proved successful, the governments should have found a way to charge us for the electricity we use and even for its wireless transmittion. See what happened with mobile phones. Is the cost of contruction of a mobile home network bigger than the cost of construction of a wired telephone network? No, its much cheaper. So, is the mobile phone charges cheaper than the wired phones one? No they are more expensive.
Also, I can take your supposition the other way and say that the modern wired electric network should have never worked, cause everyman more skilled in electrical matters than the average Joe, could connect the main electrical supply of his home with the cables at the column outside his home, or find some other way to circumvent the kilowatt-meter of his supplier. And i know some ppl who have done those kinds of tricks here. Some of them have been caught by the authorities and paid high fines, while others have saved a lot of money using these illegal methods. The same should have happened if we used Tesla's wireless instead of his wired system. Some ppl should have found a way not to pay the government, but most of the masses should pay, either cause they didnt want how to do those kind of tricks or cause they should be afraid to commit an ilegal act.
The real reason the funding of Tesla's wireless project stopped, was that in case it had succeded, it should have put an end to the copper cables industry, to which Morgan had invested big moneys. Even Tesla had said that this was the real reason he stopped got funded by Morgan, and not free energy to the masses, something that he never promised to accomplish with his new system.

Awani
11-06-2016, 05:19 PM
Regardless it's funny to know that those that crave the skill to make real gold don't have it... and probably never will have it. And if - by some miracle - they do have it, then it is only a matter of time before someone will find out and rob them, imprison them or worse.

I will always call physical gold making alchemy pseudo-chemistry, because it's funny and true... actually quasi-chemistry might be even more accurate.

:cool:

Awani
11-06-2016, 05:22 PM
This guy is said to have bought the rights of a drug that is used for AIDS patients and after securing the monopoly, rose its price by 5000%. This is the way to get rich and this is the mind of a successfull businessman. If he was not so greedy, we wouldn't have noticed it and he would have made his fortune like every other successful businessman does.

Who knows the real truth. The latter parts of this video is the important bits.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buCPjcwiTdA

:cool:

JDP
11-06-2016, 08:24 PM
Regardless it's funny to know that those that crave the skill to make real gold don't have it... and probably never will have it. And if - by some miracle - they do have it, then it is only a matter of time before someone will find out and rob them, imprison them or worse.

Keep thinking. Speaking for myself, I already "have it" thanks to some "particulars" that do work, but the problem is that they do not produce enough of it to even defray the cost of making it, let alone leave any profit for the operator. But such "particulars" do show the reality of silver-making and gold-making, that is their only purpose. Now what remains is finding either the Stone or at least profitable "particulars". And this task is actually even tougher than sifting through the ton of lies and false processes to be able to discover the above mentioned unprofitable "particulars", because the "chymists" who wrote them buried them amidst that ton of falsity on purpose, so the profitable ones lie buried even deeper inside a ton more of falsehoods that you need to sift through to get at the truth. No one said that researching alchemy and transmutational "chymistry" was an easy job. It is not for those who give up easily after a few failures, and it is not like the phantom "spiritual" alchemy, which costs nothing in either time or money to "research" since it only exists in the wild dreams and imagination of some people.


I will always call physical gold making alchemy pseudo-chemistry, because it's funny and true... actually quasi-chemistry might be even more accurate.

:cool:

And you will always continue to be wrong.

theFool
11-07-2016, 02:00 PM
The most important changes that should happen if an alchemist revelad his secret method of artificial precious metals production to the people I think should be the following:

1) Gold and silver should lost their value and should be sold to the price of lead and iron
2) Rich people and companies, who have invested big sums of money to gold and silver should lose the biggest part of their money
3) Big companies (mainly technological ones) who buy big quantities of gold for their circuits, etc., should find the production cost lowered to a considerable degree
4) Jewelers should have to find a new job (if the secret also includes transormation of brute stones to precious ones, as some alchemists affirm).
5) Maybe the balances between countries who have stocked big quantitites of gold should change
6) The alchemist should have to say goodbye to his financial security, and begin to work in a regular job, earning shit money in comparison with what he can earned if he kept his secret well guarded.
7) All the other ppl should keep working in their jobs without any considerable change in their lives.
I would like to add also that the scientific "status quo" would have to change and start inventing new theories to explain how this is possible. It could become a key to unlock cold fusion, or to perform nucleosynthesis in the same way we synthesize chemicals.

Awani
11-08-2016, 02:43 AM
This thread has derailed a bit... and I cannot be asked to clean it.

I am surprised no one said "immortality". That used to be more of a trend here in the forums a few years ago. Now it's more gold.

The "wisdom/spiritual" reason has always been pretty constant.

:cool:

Schmuldvich
11-12-2016, 06:24 AM
I like this quote from Philalethes regarding "Why Make It?"





Since then this Knowledge is so wonderfully profitable, being the very Looking-glass of Nature, the Antidote against Poverty and Sickness, and consequently the Cut-throat of Covetousness, Pride, Ambition, and such like sordid Affections,who would not bestow a little time in the Inquiry of it? In which let me assure thee in the very words of Trevisan, the Art is so plain, that if it were nakedly described it would be contemptible.

And yet in vulgar Mechanicks, how frequent is it for men to serve seven, eight, yea ten years Apprentiship to attain them?

And in some that are a little more ingenious, how frequently are considerable sums of Money bestowed to boot? Yet in this noble art, so far excelling all Humane Sciences as the Sun doth a Candle, who will imploy himself with diligence?

Unless it be some Money-minded Sots, who seek only for riches; and yet how soon are even they weary?

So that few or none persist in their inquiry, save a few Roguish Sophisters who live by Cozening; by reason of such the Art is scandalized, and ill spoken of: Yet trust me, for I speak knowingly, the Art is both true and easie; yea so easie, that if you did see the Experiment, you could not believe it. I have not made five wrong Experiments in it, before I found the truth, although in some particular turnings of the Encheiresis, I erred oft; yet so, as I in my error knew my self a Master, and in less then full two years and a half, of a vulgar Ignoramus, I became a true Adept, and have the Secret through the goodness of God.

Awani
01-04-2017, 12:48 PM
You want to talk about the archtypical principals in regards to SM production but then at the same time you dont really want to teach anyone how to make it unless they play the insane game of cat and mouse that I have subjected myself to over this last 6 months of being a member in this forum, only to end up biting the bullet, sucking it up and paying the $900 dollars it will cost me to get some decent questions answered.

Not sure what you mean, but you probably flushed 900 bucks into the toilet. Also NO ONE here has the answer, no one has the Stone (the way you describe it).

Cancer can be cured, by not by anyone in this forum through a post.


To any who have the stone... You weenies with the stone will have a lot to answer for if there is a judgement day IMO.

No one has it. I don't care what they claim. Not the Stone you describe. If the Stone is viewed in another way, then yes... but that is not what you are looking for.

As I said in another thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5072-In-Sync&p=46778#post46778), be like a child... but I don't mean be childish. ;)

Shamanism is the only way. And in my - seemingly controversial - opinion, "shamanism" is origin-alchemy without a doubt.

Allegory: shamanism is blues music and alchemy is neo-metal hardrock...

:cool:

elixirmixer
01-04-2017, 12:58 PM
Are you suggesting Dev, that even the highly intellectual members of this forum that speak of the stone and SM ect... have in fact, made stones, but that they do not transmute or heal... or that they simply have not completed the great work yet? or that the great work does not exist on the physical plane??

It would be music to me ears if someone said, "yep, made the stone just like the sages said, and, even though it is a good medicine its no where near what they all made it sound, and that the only true stone is the spiritual one, produced within our own athanor.... ect....

Which of these notions are you suggesting or another?

Yes... gotta work on my conduct around here I know... get a little excited.... (and frustrated)

elixirmixer
01-04-2017, 01:10 PM
I just wanna drink Spiritus Mundi Dev, you can relate to that cant you?? Its my DMT, its my OBE, its my justification to my wife of all these years of setting fire to the kitchen....

Even if the stone is a complete let down, I would be fine with that, as long as I can see that for myself.

I started this alchemical journey when I was 15, im now 27, I have other things in my life that need attention and acomplishment and I want to wrap up this chapter.

I agree with the shamanic statement too, I am now much more interested in my astral development than I am in herbal medicines ect...

If finances allow in future ill give this 'hired soul shard help' thing a go, I used to practise shamanism when I first started my journey but I was just too young, with no guide and I drifted away from it due to a lack of understanding I think.

But come on Dev, your hinding the stone arnt you... Working for the Masons, just telling me the stones not real so that I give up!!! lol, just mucking around.

But yeah Ill just buy Rhoends book, whats another $1000 bucks after 12 years and 1000's later!

If I dont find it there then I wont find it on the physical plane I dont think, but I suppose who cares, If you can make it on a higher plane anyway...

Awani
01-04-2017, 01:52 PM
Are you suggesting Dev, that even the highly intellectual members of this forum that speak of the stone and SM ect... have in fact, made stones, but that they do not transmute or heal... or that they simply have not completed the great work yet? or that the great work does not exist on the physical plane?

I am saying that no one in this world, since the dawn of time, have ever made a Stone that can transmute lead to gold, heal all ills and/or prolong life many hundred years.

This Stone is like Santa Claus.

Of course some say that this is not true, and their belief that I am wrong is equally based on as much fact as MY belief that "they" are wrong. In other words: it is opinion. But based on my own experiences such a Stone, as described above, does not exist - nor would Nature need it to exist.


The point of Life is not to live forever in the physical body.
Gold does not have any more monetary value than any piece of rock. It might have healing properties or other traits that we can use (like when building some technology etc).
True healing has to do with energy, vibration, state of mind and diet... it has nothing to do with eating a substance that will automatically cure any disease. Does not work like that... most medicine that works like this have side effects that are worse than the original disease. Although some substances can aid the healing process in conjunction with other techniques.



...the only true stone is the spiritual one, produced within our own athanor...

I would be more inclined agree to this line of thinking.


But come on Dev, your hinding the stone aren't you...

In a way yes (if you mean the Stone that I think is the Stone), but it is for me alone. It would not work for you, nor anyone else. Not that I am special. No. I don't mean it like that. I mean if I have a good working heart, for example, what good is it to you?


Working for the Masons, just telling me the stones not real so that I give up...

Lol. I would rather go to the dentist than work for anyone else having been self-employed and self-sustained for almost 15 years now... I cannot work for anyone else.

I am not saying give up. By all means continue. You see if indeed there is a Stone that works in the way you and others describe it (make gold, immortality etc) I have no problem, no objection, no reason to stop it. I could not care less if everyone in this forum made such a Stone. All the gold and immortality in this physical realm is - in my life and journey - meaningless. Complete horseshit.


But yeah I'll just buy Rhoends book, whats another $1000 bucks...

Rhoend will be happy. That's for sure.

:cool:

JDP
01-04-2017, 02:30 PM
I am saying that no one in this world, since the dawn of time, have ever made a Stone that can transmute lead to gold, heal all ills and/or prolong life many hundred years.

This Stone is like Santa Claus.

Really? And how many serious eye-witnesses have actually seen Santa Claus? That's right: none. On the other hand, there are quite a number of historical figures who left their eye-witness accounts for the actual Stone/Elixir.


Gold does not have any more monetary value than any piece of rock.

Is that so? Then please, be so kind as to get rid of every single bit of gold that you may have by sending it to me ASAP :) I'll be glad to take that "worthless" "rock" from your hands.


I would be more inclined agree to this line of thinking.

Of course you would, because that "Stone" is purely imaginary and no one can provide the slightest shred of evidence for its existence. Such nonsense concepts and claims are the "easy way out". The actual Stone/Elixir is described as a physical and very tangible substance, not only in alchemical literature, but also by all historical witness accounts by people who had a chance to handle samples of it.

ArcherSage
01-04-2017, 03:25 PM
There was a text written in the 17th or 16th century, I forget the name..it was one of the transmutation stories on the alchemy text website. The guy basically wrote in his journal that he had turned lead into gold hundreds of times, but that it had nothing to do with prolonging the human life, he says the tree of life is not within the gold. I have always wondered why GOLD is the ultimate creation for alchemy..why not turn lead into something else?

Awani
01-04-2017, 04:59 PM
Unless you have a direct experience anyone can write anything. Jesus walked on water. Moses parted the sea. Just because it is written does not make it true.

Regardless I have no issue about gold to lead. If that makes people happy go for it. In the end happiness has a different source unrelated to anything gold can muster up.

Almost everything we own, create, buy and sell is crap. Complete meaningless crap.

We need something to eat. We need something to wear. We need somewhere to sleep. We need the be allowed to be left alone. Anything beyond this is "surplus". And the less surplus one has, the less problem one has. The less attachement to "surplus" one has, the less "soul sickness" one has.

This is my religion, path, wisdom... whatever. It might not be suitable for others. It works for me. It is not an easy path. Probably the most difficult of them all. Complete unconditional compassion, patience and grace require the integrity of a class of Warrior that has rarely walked the Earth. I can only hope to even achieve the shadow of such a "man"... but I will damn try.

The poor want more gold.
The rich want more gold.
The middle class would like more gold.

More money.

Money is not the root of all evil. Human beings are. And we are not mature enough to be allowed to play with money IMO. Only the few. If that.

To be rich in material wealth of any kind is not hard. It is very easy (especially if you are a white man in the West). To be rich in Spirit require Work. The rewards of material wealth is limited, and full of poison. The reward of wealth in Spirit is beyond language.

Heed this warning: to search and chase wealth only for self-gain and greed, without generosity or compassion, will make your experience in death less enjoyable. Take this with a grain of salt if you want to, but if you do that then think of me during your life review. ;)


...why not turn lead into something else?

Exactly.

:cool:

alfr
01-04-2017, 05:09 PM
Funny, I just saw two hours ago a pseudo-alchemist (an illiterate idiot actually) doing it with a very clear public video. It was his "revenge" to another person... plagiarizing him.
And his explanation has a few minor mistakes, but it is very explicit and hits the nail (not the whole process, but the important parts and in a very explicit fashion... maybe the most explicit I've seen in my life).

Will this change the world forever??? I don't think so... The alchemical tradition is 2,000 years old (that's MY opinion... other may take it to the pharaonic egypt, but I don't agree and it's impossible to comprobate it).

A plain "recipe" can be explained in a very clear way without any allegories... and yet Alchemy has the "power" of protecting itself from idiots... because it's a philosophy, not a "recipe".

[I won't share the link anyway, because I don't like the person and I don't like what he did... even if it has some mistakes].

Hi elixirmixer

I think you refer to this video in link ( and about I think about it as they are public knowledge and that everyone should vdere freely judge therefore enclose them ) and in effect he in this many strange videos he.. (this much discussed and controversial an opposed person ...-as we have already seen well also in this forum-) copy as many say with some difference the method given by rhoend in him book and web (one friend well informed about everything of what say and confirm this to us) but all in competition with rhoend with lower costs see link

http://www.jorgediazcrespo.es/directo-manuscrito-de-un-alquimista-la-cupula-y-el-agua-que-no-moja/

http://www.jorgediazcrespo.es/alquimia-la-chispa-divina-de-la-luz-solar-y-su-aqua-de-vida/

http://www.jorgediazcrespo.es/category/alquimia/

etc

at the links are some videos of some -strange- interpretation methods ? -strange- cupula ? -strange- salt solar ? -strange- interpretation operative of mutus libers ? etc etc but see it and i think arrived many many doubts and skepticism many many ???
but always anyway must are observe and to see and without preconceptions if all this have true resul or not ( illiterate or not ) this are the only important

but many many doubts and skepticism remain many many ???

NB and we believe the same balanced and without preconceptions judgment must have with all these metod given by rhoend in him book and we must based this balanced and without preconceptions judgment only on real or not results and this must in imho the based to without preconceptions judgment the methods on capture SM (that seem interesting and not so.. unknown..) indicated by rhoend in its high cost of books....

Results TRUE of obtaining the SM that apparently (and this is also indicated by rhoend clearly) also by other with very similar methods to those given by rhoend in his books that also obtain by other of the real TRUE result on obyain the SM with very similar method give by rhoend in him book by other alchemists experimenters well known by many... here in europe ....

but about all this remain many many doubts and skepticism many many !!!

but anyway we osserv all well this strange compitition pubblication etc and witht ANY preconceptions and we want see and judgment all this basing only the real and true result !!!

my best regard alfr

JDP
01-04-2017, 08:14 PM
Unless you have a direct experience anyone can write anything. Jesus walked on water. Moses parted the sea. Just because it is written does not make it true.

Indeed, but then again none of those things you mention as examples is well attested by a large number of reliable independent witnesses who had nothing to gain by giving a positive testimony. Most of the witnesses I have in mind were in fact not alchemists themselves (in fact some of them even condemned alchemy as phony before they became convinced of its reality through ocular evidence), so they had no reason to lie, they had no agenda in this matter.


Regardless I have no issue about gold to lead.

I take it you are into self-destroying practices, then. This is a nice sure way of sending yourself straight to the poor-house, if such a "reverse" transmutation could be performed, that is. Thankfully, it seems like nature likes to strive towards "stability" (or "perfection", as the alchemists and "chymists" would say in their manner of thinking), so it does not appear to have a tendency of wanting to make less reactive metals (like silver and gold) to go "backwards" into being more reactive ones (like lead, iron, zinc, aluminum, etc.) That explains why I have in fact succeeded (much to your disbelief, I am sure) in making small amounts of silver from metals like lead, copper and bismuth through some "particular" methods. And it does not require any special "powers" to perform such things, by the way. Anyone can do it (empirical facts are very democratic and egalitarian, they are the same for all and open to all, they do not discriminate against anyone, even those who stubbornly deny them.) If you were given clear directions, you too could do it and become aware of the empirical reality of the matter. But I don't want to deprive you of the "joy" of becoming aware of such things through your very own hard work and tedious research. The cheap and easy "way out" is to just deny it and continue to indulge in fantasies that do not require one shred of empirical proof (such as the total gratuitous baloney claims of "spiritual alchemy".) Finding the reality of the matter is tough work. It requires patience, diligence and, above all, an incredible persistence in the face of the tons of failures that lay ahead, because the "chymists" have littered the road to proof with a whole bunch of obstacles, in the form of loads of phony processes, amidst which they have buried some truthful ones. Unfortunately (or fortunately? It depends on how you see it), since people have a natural tendency towards laziness and taking the "easy way" (i.e. the "path of least resistance"), most will never find out how real transmutation is. Those old "chymists" sure knew what they were doing when they used this strategy to disseminate the truth that they were defending but, going along with their "elitist" mentality, without at the same time divulging it to everyone in an easy manner. They knew that this deadly "trap" was going to "weed out" the majority of people (whom they considered "unworthy" of knowing such things), who give up easily after just a few failures. Only those who were extremely persistent and would not give up in the face of failure after failure would eventually get to the real facts. And since it would take such a tremendous effort to arrive at the basic truth, the likelihood that anyone would do the rest of mankind a favor by actually eliminating the phony processes and only publishing the real ones was quite slim, so the truth would very likely continue to be "protected". Those "chymists" understood basic human psychology very well. No one in his right mind who has worked very hard and spent tons of his time and money to achieve something will just give it away for "free" to others. It goes against the very self-preserving nature of man.


Almost everything we own, create, buy and sell is crap. Complete meaningless crap.

We need something to eat. We need something to wear. We need somewhere to sleep. We need the be allowed to be left alone. Anything beyond this is "surplus". And the less surplus one has, the less problem one has. The less attachment to "surplus" one has, the less "soul sickness" one has.

This is my religion, path, wisdom... whatever.

Wonderful. So I must again insist that you get rid of all your gold, silver, platinum and any other valuables immediately. Send them to me. I will be more than glad to be "unhappy" with them, while you are "happy" in the midst of poverty and misery. Practice what thou preacheth :)


The poor want more gold.
The rich want more gold.
The middle class would like more gold.

More money.

Of course, because most people are certainly not suicidal. The instinct for self-preservation transcends "classes".

Awani
01-04-2017, 08:29 PM
I don't need to convince anyone if I practice what I preach.

Also the failure to comprehend the philosophical concepts, and the attempts to rationalise them with low-level materialistic superficiality, shows me the futility of even trying to be "more clear" than I have already been. Those that will see my point "will" and those that won't "won't".


No one in his right mind who has worked very hard and spent tons of his time and money to achieve something will just give it away for "free" to others.

Google Tesla or Paracelsus or Jesus. ;) Walk with petty men through life, or walk with Gods. The choice is yours.

:cool:

JDP
01-04-2017, 08:40 PM
I don't need to convince anyone if I practice what I preach.

Also the failure to comprehend the philosophical concepts, and the attempts to rationalise them with low-level materialistic superficiality, shows me the futility of even trying to be "more clear" than I have already been. Those that will see my point "will" and those that won't "won't".



Google Tesla or Paracelsus or Jesus. ;) Walk with petty men through life, or walk with Gods. The choice is yours.

:cool:

Google also how they all ended up: prematurely dead and/or poor. :(

Awani
01-04-2017, 08:44 PM
Death is not the end. They knew it, I know it... but you don't (from what I gather from previous posts). Although eventually you will know... ;)

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
01-04-2017, 09:14 PM
I humbly believe that a lot here are missing the point. Alchemy is not really about transmuting lead into gold. It is much more about the Elixir which can be used for medicinal purposes. Once vulgar gold is introduced to the Elixir it can be used to transmute metals into gold, but once you have done so, it can never again be used for medicinal purposes. The transmutation is just a test to see if you have done the procedure correctly, or if you are curious, or if you have a more materialistic agenda than a health agenda. You can also use the Elixir in a special way to make a perpetual light. An interesting experiment indeed, but no real benefit unless you want to amuse friends. It remains to be determined whether or not the Elixir is medically safe from a modern point of view. if not, then today, the only real advantage of Alchemy is transmuting metals. But good luck with that. You might be able to sell a few ounces or even pounds of gold, but then the good old Government will become very suspicious and delve into every aspect of your life until they can determine where you are getting all this gold from. So, if your interest is making gold, good luck. At most you might make a couple hundred thousand dollars before being audited.

Spiritual alchemy has also been brought up, and I don't want to go into a debate about the legitimacy of spiritual versus physical alchemy. But traditionally, alchemy was always about medicine and physical transmutation of metals into silver or gold, rather than the transmutation of one's self into something better (which generally popped up in the last few centuries). In my opinion, there are far more effective ways of accomplishing the latter than alchemy.

So, in my opinion, the only real value of alchemy is the medicinal perspective. Also, the knowledge gained from actually understanding the processes of Nature.

Is alchemy legitimate from the point of view of the Elixir and Transmutation? Yes, I believe so.

Has anyone today actually made the Elixir and transmuted metals?

I really don't believe so,although there are many who claim success. I believe most of those individuals are either totally deluded , or deliberately lying in order to boost their ego and attract followers.

I strongly believe, based on all my research, that the answers to alchemy are far simpler, and quite different than what most modern writers have suggested.

elixirmixer
01-05-2017, 12:54 AM
Fire water interplay.

Simple.

Illen A. Cluf
01-05-2017, 12:59 AM
Fire water interplay.

Simple.

Yes, water that acts like fire, but "fire water interplay" covers a lot of ground and is not too helpful.

elixirmixer
01-05-2017, 01:19 AM
Not that I can really say yet, as I have not made any SM.

But the words "Fire water interplay" IMO hold the entire key, to life, to health (all forms) and to Stone and SM

And I suppose that one of the main reasons for 'Why to make the stone' would simply be to prove to myself that I am correct and that it has been an interplay of these forces that has cuased all life on our planet to thrive.

As well as the point Dev said in the original thread "We need food, water, shelter, and TO BE LEFT ALONE" which is why I think the gold aspect of the stone can also be important.

Sure, a life of poverty is fine, I thrived in it and certainly wouldn't be the compassionate, intelligent person I am today without a very hard and impoverished upbringing, but I have a wife and children, that ain't exactly about to 'move' to the 4th dimension with me, they require sustenance, they require peace and TO BE LEFT ALONE aka GOVERNMENT. (Australia is in a huge time of corruption right now, just as the rest of you have been dealing with for hundreds of years.)(Huge meaning that our government gave the american government 60 billion out of our economy, hence why our dollar was just above the USD for a little while, then had a staggering drop to 0.70 and has stayed there ever since)

The stone is freedom, it is physical salvation (if your interested)

I was surprised to here the Dev didn't believe the physical stone existed/has been created, but I was much more surprised to hear JDP suggest that it was ONLY physical, and not spiritual, and that the spiritual stone was a fairy-tale.

Could a physical stone exist without its spiritual counterpart?

And this is why we truly should make the stone. Proof of method. To further look into greater things. If we can't even make a glowing rock, what chance do you think you really have of ( choose your spiritual objective ).

Illen A. Cluf
01-05-2017, 01:40 AM
But the words "Fire water interplay" IMO hold the entire key, to life, to health (all forms) and to Stone and SM



Well, according to the Philosophy of the Adepts, you are only short of two critical items: EARTH and AIR. If you can comprehend what the four represent and how they join together to form the Quintessence, then you have the Stone.

“The Quintessence is a thing, that is spiritual, penetrating, tingeing, and incorruptible, which emerges anew from the Four Elements when they are bound together.” [Isaac Newton]

Awani
01-05-2017, 01:49 AM
...which is why I think the gold aspect of the stone can also be important.

It would be the least important aspect.


Sure, a life of poverty is fine...

It has nothing to do with being poor. You can be as poor without gold, as you can be with gold.


I was surprised to here the Dev didn't believe the physical stone existed/has been created...

Only if you talk about a Stone that can: turn lead into gold + heal all ills + make you immortal


Could a physical stone exist without its spiritual counterpart?

No. All is spirit.

:cool:

elixirmixer
01-05-2017, 03:34 AM
Well, according to the Philosophy of the Adepts, you are only short of two critical items: EARTH and AIR. If you can comprehend what the four represent and how they join together to form the Quintessence, then you have the Stone.

“The Quintessence is a thing, that is spiritual, penetrating, tingeing, and incorruptible, which emerges anew from the Four Elements when they are bound together.” [Isaac Newton]

(IMO) Air is only a result of the intermiditary condition between fire and water, and earth, is simply fire, air, water, subjected to space and time, creating earth....

So I stand by my point that, a fire like the sun, and a ball of water like what was the Earth (IMO) is capable of producing its own atmosphere and its own physical land (salt)

So I do, still stand by my first point, that fire and water, exist outside of the realms air and earth, fire and water being the "birthing mothers" so to speak of the other two.

I also want to take this time to remind people of the trap of alchemical dogma.

Kabbalists suggest that the four elements are only in this balanced state in the realm of malkuth (3D reality) therefore, if it only exists in this way here, then I do not see it as "a universal truth"
whereas, I can see fire and water, existing in all places, expressed in all forms, even as air and as earth.

But, really what are we debating about, air and earth obviously do exist, but I don't think they have bugger all to do with SM, because the interplay of fire and water, is what indeed creates the existence of the other two forces.

IMO. (And also Franz Bardon's)

Schmuldvich
01-05-2017, 03:50 AM
Death is not the end. They knew it, I know it...

Absolutely! It's funny, it appears to me that almost all those who have used entheogens "correctly" (i.e. not as a party drug) understand this facet and see the big picture of things. We are able to "zoom out" and comprehend this grander perspective moreso, or at least easier-than, our friends who are not psychonauts or who have not traversed that realm as fully as us who have gotten to experience such experiences. Don't get me wrong, this is not to say others are not capable of acknowledging such things or understanding such truths. I am saying nothing of the such. The main point I am trying to make is that who have respected the entheogenic value of such powerful substances tend to have no problem grasping the fact that our time here on Earth is barely the blink of an eye and death is not the end.

Perspective is so critically important in furthering understanding of Universal truths imo.

elixirmixer
01-05-2017, 04:57 AM
I was going to post here about the previous comments but its getting too far off topic and I will reply to those comments in the "psychedelics" threads.

Can I please have an account, from someone trying to make the stone.... as to

Why are you making the stone?

I am making it as an example of learnt philosophy, and so that I may relieve suffering, both my own, and that of all others who will ask for my help.

Golds nice too if you really need it (what I really mean, is if your FAMILY really needs it, why would YOU possibly need gold, if you truly are the philosopher you think you are ;) )

Schmuldvich
01-05-2017, 05:00 AM
Can I please have an account, from someone trying to make the stone.... as to Why are you making the stone? I am making it as an examplke of learnt philosophy, and so that I may relieve suffering, both my own, and that of all others who wil ask for my help.


He that has once found this Art, can have nothing else in all the world to wish for, than that he may be allowed to serve his God in peace and safety. He will not care for pomp or dazzling outward show.

But if he lived a thousand years, and daily entertained a million people, he could never come to want, since he has at hand the means of indefinitely multiplying the Stone both in weight and virtue, and thus of changing all imperfect metals in the world into gold.

In the second place, he has it in his power to make stones and diamonds far more precious than any that are naturally procured.

In the third place, he has an Universal Medicine, with which he can cure every conceivable disease, and, indeed, as to the quantity of his Medicine, he might heal all sick people in the world.



“An Open Entrance To The Closed Palace Of The King”, by Philalethes 1667



Prepared as medicine and sweet food, when taken into the mouth it may immediately penetrate the human frame, greatly holding to itself every fleshly thing, increasing, restoring, and nourishing the incorrupt virtue and spirit of life, digesting the crude and undigested, removing the superfluous, making natural water abound, and augmenting, comforting, and inflaming natural heat or fire. The above will be the duty of the true physician and sane philosopher.

For thus will he be able to preserve our body from corruption, to retard old age, retain florid youth in full vigour, and, if possible, to perpetuate it, at least to preserve it from death and destruction.



“Man, The Best And Most Perfect Of God’s Creatures”, by Benedict Figulus 1607



The most noble Art and comforter of the poor, above all natural arts, which man may ever have on earth, the noble Alchemy, is to be esteemed as the gift of God; for it is hidden mostly in manifold proverbs, figurative sayings and parables of the old Sages. Whosoever therefore will act wisely should search for the Wisdom of the old Philosophers, which is shown in the wit and Artfulness of the manifold parables and roundabout sayings, thus hiding the proper operations and thus rendering their unriddling difficult.

To think over these things requires a very subtle mind, and only those with suitable faculties and knowledge will find it easy and natural. ‘For those who have no natural understandings of these things, there is nothing so precious in Nature as he who possesses this Art; he is like one ‘who had a flint from which he strikes fire and gives to whosoever he likes, without the stone getting any smaller through it’. It is as good as giving superfluous fine Gold.

This Art is also better than all commerce, Gold and Silver, and her fruits are better than the wealth of all the world. For by means of this Art, is obtained that which furthers long life, health, her youngest fruit being the true Aurum, the most powerful balm and most precious gift of God, which the old Philosophers could find in Nature with their Art.



“Splendor Solis”, by Solomon Trismosin 1582

zoas23
01-05-2017, 08:32 PM
Why make the stone? That's pretty simple to me... Beauty.

This one explains the whole thing for me:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjJbV2hWCUU

For me it is not $$$.... it is neither health... it is neither what most people said, but something as simple as Beauty...

Yesterday I was at home with a friend playing with 4 very different paths (I LOVE the word "playing").
2 of them were a bit "ugly", the other 2 were beautiful, elegant.
I somehow wanted the 2 "ugly" ones to fail completely... It would be somehow disappointing to me to make a Stone by using "ugly" means (of course, I would need to explain my definition of "beauty" and "ugliness", which is not a standard definition, but that's not the point here).

Since you created the thread, Dev... I've had the luck of seeing some poems by you, listening to some music by you and seeing some painting by you (I have to confess that I admire you as an artist... your style matches my definition of "beauty").

So, why do you make music, poems and paint? Is it to get rich? You are not stupid and you know that your style is not exactly very commercial. I strongly doubt that you will make a lot of $$$ with your art (though I don't think that your intention is that one... and it's easy to tell which artist is, i.e, painting for the money).

This is one of my most beloved short stories, "The Unknown Masterpiece" by Balzac: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/23060/23060-h/23060-h.htm

I like "Frenhofer" a lot... his passion for creating something absolutely beautiful.
Paul Cézanne loved that tale too and said "I am Frenhofer!"... he was a bit mad and sometimes spent hours and hours before making a brush stroke, he wanted a perfect beauty... each stroke had to be perfect. He knew that his style was NOT popular at all, but very rejected (he got a bit more popular in his later years).

That's THE point of alchemy to me... the same "spirit" that made Cézanne paint... the same "spirit" that makes you write poems... the same "spirit" that makes a lot of people do their best to create something beautiful.

(You make music... would you be happy if you were Justin Bieber and playing THAT music? Probably not... So it's very similar for me... Aesthetics are transcendental).

I think EVERY honest painter, musician, poet, sculptor, etc was/is doing his best to make HIS "philosopher's stone". So it's like asking to Derek Jarman "Why do you make films?".
I love Derek, I love what he did.
He was diagnosed with HIV and then he got sick with AIDS and he knew he just had a few months before leaving... so his final project was to make 2 films, which are probably my favourites.
"Wittgenstein"... he called the actors who had worked with him in his previous films and made them act in what was going to be his "last film". He identified himself with the ideas of Wittgenstein, the idea that logic has a limit and that there is something "transcendental" that exists beyond the realms of logic. The "death scene" of Wittgenstein... I think he knew he was filming his own death... And that's remarkable. The movie was filmed with almost zero budget... the "Stone of the Poor", but its value is enormous... I don't know if you can learn something by watching a movie like "Titanic", but you can learn a lot by watching Jarman's "Wittgenstein". There is a lovely interview to Tilda Swinton, who was often his muse and, of course, part of the cast of "Wittgenstein". It is sadly not online... She talks about the movie and how she asked Derek: "Are you sure about what we are doing? I get it and you get it, but is anyone else going to get it?"... and Jarman, who was agonizing smiled and said: "You get it, I get it... we film for the others who will get it too, we film for us, don't worry".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TM0zA2_5UE

And once he finished Wittgenstein he became almost blind and decided to make yet another movie, "Bue", with no images except for the blue screen... a movie about his life, about what he expected from death, about transcende, about AIDS, about being gay, about the coldness of hospitals and the warmth of life...Those 2 movies are his "Philosopher's Stone" and he was not looking for Ca$h, neither for Health... it was about going beyond words... about the transcendental and unique experience of Beauty.

Which goes to another issue for me: some alchemical paths look like the movie "Titanic" to me... MAYBE they can produce an insane amount of ca$h, I am not sure... I haven't watched "Titanic" actually. Some alchemical paths look like "Blue"... So that's the answer for me. We are all "here" for a while... and there's always a small amount of persons trying to create something beautiful and I completely understand WHY.

As Wittgenstein used to say:

"6.41: The sense of the world must lie outside the world. In the world everything is as it is and happens as it does happen. In it there is no value -- and if there were, it would be of no value.
If there is a value which is of value, it must lie outside all happening and being-so. For all happening and being-so is accidental. What makes it non-accidental cannot lie in the world, for otherwise this would again be accidental. It must lie outside the world.
6.42: Hence also there can be no ethical propositions. Propositions cannot express anything higher.
6.421 It is clear that ethics cannot be expressed. Ethics is transcendental. (Ethics and æthetics are one.)
6.43 If good or bad willing changes the world, it can only change the limits of the world, not the facts; not the things that can be expressed in language. In brief, the world must thereby become quite another, it must so to speak wax or wane as a whole. The world of the happy is quite another than that of the unhappy.
6.44 Not how the world is, is the mystical, but that it is.
6.45 The contemplation of the world sub specie aeterni is its contemplation as a limited whole. The feeling that the world is a limited whole is the mystical feeling.
6.52 We feel that even if all possible scientific questions be asnwered, the problems of life have still not been touched at all. Of course there is then no question left, and just this is the answer.
6.521 The solution of the problem of life is seen in the vanishing of this problem. (Is not this the reason why men to whom after long doubting the sense of life became clear, could not then say wherein this sense consisted?)
6.522 There is indeed the inexpressible. This shows itself; it is the mystical.
6.54 My propositions are elucidatory in this way: he who understands me finally recognizes them as senseless, when he has climbed out through them, on them, over them. (He must so to speak throw away the ladder, after he has climbed up on it.) He must surmount these propositions; then he sees the world rightly."

The Stone and beauty are the same thing to me... I even feel or believe that those who repeat "gold, gold, gold" as a mantra are not TOO far from these ideas. i.e, JDP insists a lot on the value of gold... I bet that if I show him two boxes and I tell him that the box "A" contains 100,000 kilos of gold and the box "B" contains a very elegant formula to make the Stone, a "satisfaction guaranteed" path, but that he will have to work a lot to make maybe 3 kilos of gold during the whole of his life, he will probably choose the box "B"... and it is an aesthetic choice.

Awani
01-06-2017, 12:34 AM
The Stone and beauty are the same thing to me...

For me the Stone is about transcendence, about merging with the Divine Mystery... about compassionate empowerment over mind and matter... and when in such a state, yes, everything becomes beauty.

So I agree in my way.


I strongly doubt that you will make a lot of $$$ with your art...

You forgot to mention fame and vanity. These two - these days - are even more of an attraction for most aspiring artists, more so than money.

I have never ever done art thinking about money, nor will I ever. People never believe me, but I honestly don't care. When I was a teenager I dreamed of fame and vanity... which is natural in the state I was in (bullied and insecure)... but I am not interested in these things either anymore (nor have I been for a very long time).

Anything I do is to satisfy myself: what I like

I don't give a fuck if anyone else don't like it. And if they are not creative themselves AND don't like it I don't give a fuck EVEN MORE.

Life is art. Life is creation.

Since the dawn of man, when our consciousness first woke up what did we do? We began to tell stories by the fire, and we began to draw on walls. Any artistic or creative endeavour is sacred. Any emotion (good or bad) can be channeled through art. An artist that needs to see a shrink, might not be that good at art. But I can't judge anyone... just a theory I came up with writing this.

Art I like myself need to have some "depth", it has to feel "honest", it has to be "raw"... I cannot stand polished or agenda-infected art... such art I call "product". Most people like "product art", also known as "cheese"... I don't. But nothing wrong with having different tastes... just expressing my own.

Very few people in the world like Flipper. But the very few who do, probably understand everything I just wrote. LOL.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxaGx2t2VBM

Ever sit in tormenting silence
That turns so loud, you start to scream
Ever take control of a dream
And play all the parts and set all the scenes


I have to confess that I admire you as an artist...

Are you good at picking up women? You master the skill of the compliment.

:cool:

Schmuldvich
01-06-2017, 12:54 AM
It seems like nature likes to strive towards "stability", so it does not appear to have a tendency of wanting to make less reactive metals to go "backwards" into being more reactive ones. That explains why I have in fact succeeded in making small amounts of silver from metals like lead, copper and bismuth through some "particular" methods. And it does not require any special "powers" to perform such things, by the way. Anyone can do it. If you were given clear directions, you too could do it and become aware of the empirical reality of the matter. But I don't want to deprive you of the "joy" of becoming aware of such things through your very own hard work and tedious research.

The cheap and easy "way out" is to just deny it and continue to indulge in fantasies that do not require one shred of empirical proof (such as the total gratuitous baloney claims of "spiritual alchemy"). Finding the reality of the matter is tough work. It requires patience, diligence and, above all, an incredible persistence in the face of the tons of failures that lay ahead, because the "chymists" have littered the road to proof with a whole bunch of obstacles, in the form of loads of phony processes, amidst which they have buried some truthful ones. Since people have a natural tendency towards laziness and taking the "easy way", most will never find out how real transmutation is.

Those old "chymists" sure knew what they were doing when they used this strategy to disseminate the truth that they were defending but, going along with their "elitist" mentality, without at the same time divulging it to everyone in an easy manner. They knew that this deadly "trap" was going to "weed out" the majority of people, who give up easily after just a few failures. Only those who were extremely persistent and would not give up in the face of failure after failure would eventually get to the real facts. And since it would take such a tremendous effort to arrive at the basic truth, the likelihood that anyone would do the rest of mankind a favor by actually eliminating the phony processes and only publishing the real ones was quite slim, so the truth would very likely continue to be "protected". Those "chymists" understood basic human psychology very well. No one in his right mind who has worked very hard and spent tons of his time and money to achieve something will just give it away for "free" to others. It goes against the very self-preserving nature of man.

Well put

Amon
01-06-2017, 01:02 AM
Personally i see the stone as the key to physical freedom, aside from having marvelous qualities. I am an anarchist so as long as i am "chained" by the government i feel as a prisoner. Breaking free of this prison is most likely my second greatest aspiration. So when i hopefully become a free ( physically ) man, i can spend the rest of my life in peace exploring Nature and trying to connect with God, without the silly regulations of society and no longer "bound" by human law and government authority, the latter of which is probably the greatest offspring that the enslavement of human minds has given birth to.

zoas23
01-06-2017, 10:45 AM
For me the Stone is about transcendence, about merging with the Divine Mystery... about compassionate empowerment over mind and matter... and when in such a state, yes, everything becomes beauty. So I agree in my way.

We're saying the same thing in a different way. "Rewards all come in the present slice, So don't look for future's paradise, take heaven now is my advice"... You know that one.
I simply use the idea of Beauty for the lack of a better word.

I remember reading a very controversial book quite recently by an alchemist that I would not mention as to avoid some discussions.
It had a set of formulas and ideas about how to physically make the stone... and I completely fell in love with a paragraph. It had a very simple idea: the person claimed to have made the stone in its physical sense... a stone that can transmute metals and give health. So then he asked a rhetoric question: "The stone provides gold and health, but does it provide happiness?". His answer was very clear: "NO, it doesn't.... only love does... and the stone can't give you such thing, only a partner can give you such thing. The Stone is completely unworthy if you compare it with what love can provide".
That was the best part of the book for me.

I thought of Cyliani... the morale of his story is quite simple to me: he wanted to create something beautiful for his wife. He created the stone and then he rushed to show it to his wife. Some people claim that the "wife" is a symbol (I've heard all the possible theories, that the wife is his soul, that the wife is Freemasonry, all the possible etceteras). I think the wife is simply his wife.


You forgot to mention fame and vanity. These two - these days - are even more of an attraction for most aspiring artists, more so than money.
I have never ever done art thinking about money, nor will I ever. People never believe me, but I honestly don't care. When I was a teenager I dreamed of fame and vanity... which is natural in the state I was in (bullied and insecure)... but I am not interested in these things either anymore (nor have I been for a very long time).
Anything I do is to satisfy myself: what I like
I don't give a fuck if anyone else don't like it. And if they are not creative themselves AND don't like it I don't give a fuck EVEN MORE.
Life is art. Life is creation.
Since the dawn of man, when our consciousness first woke up what did we do? We began to tell stories by the fire, and we began to draw on walls. Any artistic or creative endeavour is sacred. Any emotion (good or bad) can be channeled through art. An artist that needs to see a shrink, might not be that good at art. But I can't judge anyone... just a theory I came up with writing this.

Fame and vanity are two traps... though it is true that a lot of persons want them. I do not really get why. Though your comment made me realize of something important for me, but I won't say it! (LOL... you simply made me realize of the meaning of something).
"The process is the product" is something I've learnt a long time ago.
I see a big link between alchemy-love-art-beauty... I can't split these ideas. They ALL mean "transcendence" is a way or other.


Art I like myself need to have some "depth", it has to feel "honest", it has to be "raw"... I cannot stand polished or agenda-infected art... such art I call "product". Most people like "product art", also known as "cheese"... I don't. But nothing wrong with having different tastes... just expressing my own.

Very few people in the world like Flipper. But the very few who do, probably understand everything I just wrote. LOL.

Ah! LOL... I will have to accuse you and declare that you already knew that I love Flipper!
Yes, we have very similar tastes in art.

I like a lot Piero Manzoni... I love this phrase by him:

The foundation of the universal value of art are given to us now by psychology. This is the common base that enables art to sink its roots to the origins before man and to discover the primary myths of humanity.

The artist must confront these myths and reduce them, by means of amorphous and confused materials, to clear images.

Since these are atavistic forces that have their origins in the subconscious, the work of art takes on a magical significance.

On the other hand, art has always had a religious value, from the first artist-sorcerer to the pagan and Christian myth, etc.

The key point today is to establish the universal validity of individual mythology.

The artistic moment is therefore that in which the discovery of preconscious universal myths comes about, and in the reduction of these into the form of images.

It is clear that if the artist is to be able to bring to light zones of myth that are authentic and virginal he must have both an extreme degree of self-awareness and gifts of iron precision and logic.

To arrive at such a discovery, fruit of a long and precious education, involves a whole field of precise technique. The artist must immerse himself in his own anxiety, dredging up everything that is alien, imposed or personal in the derogatory sense, in order to arrive at the authentic zone of values.

So it's obvious that at first glance there would seem to be a paradox: the more we immerse ourselves in ourselves, the more open we become, since the closer we get to the germ of our totality the closer we are to the germ of totality of all men.We can therefore say that subjective invention is the only means of discovering objective reality, the only means that gives us the possibility of communication between men.

There comes a point where individual mythology and universal mythology are identical. In this context it is clear that there can be no concern with symbolism and description, memories, misty impressions, of childhood, pictoricism, sentimentalism: all this must be absolutely excluded.

I think he was the first one to show a completely white canvas as a "work of art"... At some given point he realized that he didn't need to "paint" as to create something sacred, magical... His discovery was plagiarized and vulgarized several times by other artists... but I like his honesty, his unique elegance... and his wise use of alchemical metaphors (i.e, selling his canned shit for its weight in gold... an "artistic transmutation" of literal shit into gold).


Are you good at picking up women? You master the skill of the compliment.

Yeah... I never received a "no" in my whole life. Wanna know the "trick"?
It's not compliments... it is neither the "tricks" that the so called "pick up artists" teach (which are bullshit).
The "trick" that ALWAYS works is honestly caring about the other person, probably caring about the other person even more than you care about yourself... and being very clear that you want "everything or nothing", even before the first kiss. It is the most dangerous path because it involves love and exposing yourself completely without using any "trick"... and it involves an absolute and complete trust in the other one.
It is a bit like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lXeTSW0lW4

(I have no idea if this "works" for casual sex... I never even kissed a woman with whom I didn't have a long term relationship... nor I understand the point of casual sex).

This is relevant for me because I've seen a HUGE mistake that a lot of people make: getting "married" to alchemy... as if alchemy could be a partner... well, "she" can't.... and it is a very sad choice.

Awani
05-01-2017, 01:12 PM
Poll added to this thread. If the option you want does not exist simply make a post.

And you can only choose one thing, so make up your mind... ;)

:p

Andro
05-01-2017, 04:48 PM
Poll added to this thread. If the option you want does not exist simply make a post.

I added another (6th) option to the poll... it's interesting for me to see if I'm alone in this or not :)

Awani
05-01-2017, 06:39 PM
That is what option 2 means.

:p

JDP
05-01-2017, 07:54 PM
Misleading "poll" since the Stone is only for transmutation and medicine, there are no other "options".

Regarding the supposed "spiritual path": one would have to prove that such a thing as a "spirit" even exists in the first place. Good luck with that one!

Awani
05-01-2017, 10:03 PM
Misleading "poll" since the Stone is only for transmutation and medicine, there are no other "options".

That is why it is a poll (put the word in Google for more information).

For example: Is there a God? YES or NO or DON'T KNOW.

Is this kindergarten? LOL. Jesus Christ.

:p

JDP
05-01-2017, 11:24 PM
That is why it is a poll (put the word in Google for more information).

For example: Is there a God? YES or NO or DON'T KNOW.

Is this kindergarten? LOL. Jesus Christ.

:p

If you make a poll asking the question "why make a chair?" you will list actual possible uses for it, but not something that within the context would be useless, like "become immortal", for example. A chair can't do that, and it has never been reputed to do that either. So it would be misleading to put that as an option. So apply the same common sense to a poll about "why make the Stone?" Why make it for things that it just cannot do? It's misleading.

elixirmixer
05-01-2017, 11:27 PM
Options 2,3,4 and 6.

Is option 2 the same as option 6?

How about "all of the above"

@ JDP: I think everyone here well understands your point of view in regards to NO spiritually as YOUR spiritual path. However, since we all know where your coming from, to continue to aggressively push your view no matter which thread your in, kind of makes you look, well..... I'll leave that to your imagination, but it's not good!
There are many spiritually minded people here so who are you trying to convince? Those here who have stepped forward in faith, would most certainly have been met with as much proof as they needed, they will not be convinced to forget their own personal experiences by repetitious and stubborn view points.

There is one other reason I can think of to make the Stone.

The personal satisfaction of knowing that you have out philosophised 99.9% of the worlds population and earnt the title of "Sage". (Ie: purely egotistical reasons, for the sake of the ego itself)

Illen A. Cluf
05-01-2017, 11:30 PM
I don't see my answer here (similar to JDP's comments). Could you add another option:

"To determine the validity of transmutation (and thus of alchemy), and to develop the use of the Elixir for medical purposes."

elixirmixer
05-01-2017, 11:32 PM
I'm going to lock in 6 Eddie, simply because escaping the matrix is my main reason for even breathing, aswell as seeking Stonehood

Michael Sternbach
05-01-2017, 11:51 PM
If you make a poll asking the question "why make a chair?" you will list actual possible uses for it, but not something that within the context would be useless, like "become immortal", for example. A chair can't do that, and it has never been reputed to do that either. So it would be misleading to put that as an option. So apply the same common sense to a poll about "why make the Stone?" Why make it for things that it just cannot do? It's misleading.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2ln7fqv.jpg

JDP
05-01-2017, 11:58 PM
@ JDP: I think everyone here well understands your point of view in regards to NO spiritually as YOUR spiritual path. However, since we all know where your coming from, to continue to aggressively push your view no matter which thread your in, kind of makes you look, well..... I'll leave that to your imagination, but it's not good!
There are many spiritually minded people here so who are you trying to convince? Those here who have stepped forward in faith, would most certainly have been met with as much proof as they needed, they will not be convinced to forget their own personal experiences by repetitious and stubborn view points.

It's called "keeping it real, yo!", as the kids say today. The fact is that none of those you refer to have got any proof whatsoever about the things they claim. And this is a poll about why make the Stone for which some strange options were given, I was commenting on that.

elixirmixer
05-02-2017, 12:29 AM
Lol.

For all the alchemical literature you've read, you obviously missed "Harry Potter and the philosophers stone" which for all intents and purposes is just about as useful as at least 50% of the ancient manuscripts you lot dig your teeth into.

As if you would bother making the stone just to get rich?? Would be old and fucking dying before you even get to spend any of this money.

I, to this day, have never paid any tax.

Never.

Not once.

I'm 28.

I own my own home, have a very beautiful family who I adore but that feeds me a healthy does of insanity.

I don't do any illegal activities. Never have really (apart from taking illicit substances and some petty crime when I was young)

I don't work hard. Fuck that. I can't stand the A-hole boss, and the fake receptionist, and the ass-kissing, competitive nature of all these lying cheating backstabbing, godless wrenches...

And I also resent the idea that it ought to be assumed that every human bein. In the world would sell out their soul for a million dollars. I'd take a massive shit on your big pile of money, if I knew for a fact that it was morally wrong to take it (blood money, ect)

The philosophers stone, is not JUST a substance that can turn lead I to gold. It is a force. An archetype. A lesson.

Look at us all. Here. Chatting, debating, philosophising......

Why? What brought us here? Awani? Andro? Or..........

THE STONE!!!......

All this debating, I bet it was happening long before I got here, and long after I've secretly made the stone and vanished...

However, for me, the true reason that I started studying alchemy, and seeking the stone, was simply so that I could prove to God that I was willing to dedicate my entire life to the acquisition of freedom for my fellow man-slave. That I would not seek the position of CEO, that I wouldn't seek the kill of the hunter, that I wouldn't seek to conquer my neighbour, that I didn't care if I was rich or poor, that I wouldn't forget those people around me.

It was hard to keep to that pledge, as it wasn't long before I realised that most of the world is more like JDP. Fuck God give me gold! My kins-slave-men cast me down for trying to free them and stepped on me, so that my warnings would leave their ears.

But I didn't stop, it was hard, no good deed goes unpunished, so remember that next time you speak to a homeless-man. He just may be the best man you've ever met and you would never know it.

Fuck gold dude. What would you do once you had it? Hookers and hotel rooms? You can't tell me your trying to find the root of all wealth just so you can pay the bills!? Turn your bloody heater off!

Yep, living the dream. Never supported a pedo-centric-enslavement-pandemic culture, not one dollar towards it. Nor do I enslave myself within it, good luck getting me to dig your ditches! If rich people are so happy, then why does bill Clinton have to make 6 trips a month to orgy island and fuck a dozens of children just to feel normal enough to come home to his beautiful wife?

Gold doesn't do shit for you, expect bring paranoid-delusions of all the ways it can be taken from you. I've just got out an ounce of gold and I'm staring at it..... Nope.... Not feeling anything.... Wait!! I feel a little richer!! Oh.. No... That was just gas......

Lol if you aspire to that kind I wealth just go join the Freemasons. I tried joining but apparently if you've been publicly defaming them on forums like this and Facebook, they have you on a list and you can't get in. I was hoping to get a tax reduction HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABABAB!!!!!!

Aham
05-02-2017, 02:09 AM
Lol.

why does bill Clinton... to come home to his beautiful wife?



Beautiful wife?!?! :confused:

I'll have whatever illicit substances he's having... :D

Schmuldvich
05-02-2017, 02:21 AM
I, to this day, have never paid any tax.

I tried joining the Freemasons. I was hoping to get a tax reduction HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABABAB!!!!!!

:confused: /does not compute.

Since you started posting I have been curious where all your money comes from (nice house, land, car, ten thousand dollar laboratory equipment). Was it an inheritance? Did you win the lottery? Insurance settlement? Disability?




If you make a poll asking the question "why make a chair?" you will list actual possible uses for it, but not something that within the context would be useless, like "become immortal", for example. A chair can't do that, and it has never been reputed to do that either. So it would be misleading to put that as an option. So apply the same common sense to a poll about "why make the Stone?" Why make it for things that it just cannot do? It's misleading.
Agreed.

These hand-picked answers are mediocre at best and misleading at worst. My "answer" is not even on the list.

elixirmixer
05-02-2017, 09:22 AM
Well quite simple really, i try to earn money during the year but only enough to stay under the line of paying tax.

That does not leave much to work with each year. (Running off mainly social security payments)

I then work every dollar to its fullest. I will NOT buy anything that isn't marked down buy at least 50%.

I try to find friends to do work on my car for free.

I charge people if they want a lift in my car.

I have stockpiled this lab equipment over the past 7 years or so.

The house is on a rent to buy scheme, so technically i'm just renting, but about 8 years from now, I will buy my house for $1.

Another thing, like Awani was trying to get through but i don't think he succeeded, the mind state of a person actually has a f'ing shitload to do with how financially stable they are. When I stopped looking at myself as poor, I stopped behaving the way poor people behave. When I stopped behaving the way poor people behave, I started moving up the economic food chain, mind you, i often look at myself as poor, often behave poorly, and as a result, really am not that well off at all, at least relative compared with where I should be, considering all the opportunities life's thrown at me, but i fuck most of them up so... whatchya gonna do?

So yeah, obviously, if you are as serious as I am, you wont waste your money on anything that is not the most epic equipment available for this fine choice of hobby you have.

Oh yeah, I forgot the number one rule. Every dollar, should be put to work in doing something that will bring back at least a $1.10 back.

Don't waste your money dude! buy things that you can keep, and use for a long time. Buy things in bulk. Buy EVERYTHING in bulk. Dont ever buy anything from a service station EVER! When you go out for food, find what is the best value, and order that, not what "you feel like" its just food, and its gone in an hour no matter if you spent $5 or $35

I could keep going on about the rules of gold acquisition, but this is not the place.

I don't look at cash as currency anymore. I look at it as the only possible hope my children have of a future; in this ever increasingly competitive world.

elixirmixer
05-02-2017, 09:44 AM
So no, all your guesses were wrong.

It is obviously easier to just sell-out, become a corporate fuckwit and be done with it, but I'm friends with Jesus so I'm not allowed too.

Yeah, my system is far from perfect, and I would like to have plenty more money, but, there are many other things i would prefer, and i just dont care about the money anymore.

Its all for show and tell, and the only thing I feel like showing off is EPIC WAYS TO MAKE MEDICINE!!!! YEEEEEEAAAAHHHH!

elixirmixer
05-02-2017, 10:06 AM
One Last Thing...

Isn't there a lot of warnings in all those books you read, telling you that if you hunt the stone for the sake of gold that you'll end up a miserable old fart who dies a violent death?

The Stone is not some tool, to be had, that can take all your problems away. This is a sacred science and The Philosophers Stone is reserved for the people who can be entrusted with its uses.

It is for the fully accomplished Adept to BEGIN his work of healing the Macrocosm in which he lives, since, having made the stone, he has completed the great challenge of healing himself.

JDP
05-02-2017, 06:52 PM
One Last Thing...

Isn't there a lot of warnings in all those books you read, telling you that if you hunt the stone for the sake of gold that you'll end up a miserable old fart who dies a violent death?

It goes without saying that having possession of such a thing will naturally attract the attention of others. If they happen to be unscrupulous crooks who will stop at nothing to have the things they desire, they might in fact try to take it away from you, either by "friendly" or violent means. There is nothing "supernatural" or "mysterious" about this, though. Simple case of out of control human greed. It happens, or as the popular saying puts it: "Shit happens!" It doesn't take a Sigmund Freud to understand basic human behavior. Therefore if you happen to possess it, you should take precautions for your security.


This is a sacred science and The Philosophers Stone is reserved for the people who can be entrusted with its uses.

Fairy tale concocted by the alchemists to impress the "vulgar" and set themselves on a "pedestal" apart from the rest of humanity.


It is for the fully accomplished Adept to BEGIN his work of healing the Macrocosm in which he lives, since, having made the stone, he has completed the great challenge of healing himself.

Uncorroborated grandiloquent claims stemming from the minds of people with "mystical" inclinations.

JDP
05-02-2017, 07:03 PM
Well quite simple really, i try to earn money during the year but only enough to stay under the line of paying tax.

That does not leave much to work with each year. (Running off mainly social security payments)

I then work every dollar to its fullest. I will NOT buy anything that isn't marked down buy at least 50%.

I try to find friends to do work on my car for free.

I charge people if they want a lift in my car.

I have stockpiled this lab equipment over the past 7 years or so.

The house is on a rent to buy scheme, so technically i'm just renting, but about 8 years from now, I will buy my house for $1.

Another thing, like Awani was trying to get through but i don't think he succeeded, the mind state of a person actually has a f'ing shitload to do with how financially stable they are. When I stopped looking at myself as poor, I stopped behaving the way poor people behave. When I stopped behaving the way poor people behave, I started moving up the economic food chain, mind you, i often look at myself as poor, often behave poorly, and as a result, really am not that well off at all, at least relative compared with where I should be, considering all the opportunities life's thrown at me, but i fuck most of them up so... whatchya gonna do?

So yeah, obviously, if you are as serious as I am, you wont waste your money on anything that is not the most epic equipment available for this fine choice of hobby you have.

Oh yeah, I forgot the number one rule. Every dollar, should be put to work in doing something that will bring back at least a $1.10 back.

Don't waste your money dude! buy things that you can keep, and use for a long time. Buy things in bulk. Buy EVERYTHING in bulk. Dont ever buy anything from a service station EVER! When you go out for food, find what is the best value, and order that, not what "you feel like" its just food, and its gone in an hour no matter if you spent $5 or $35

I could keep going on about the rules of gold acquisition, but this is not the place.

I don't look at cash as currency anymore. I look at it as the only possible hope my children have of a future; in this ever increasingly competitive world.

After all of what you said in some of the above posts, I find it very amusing that you have the brazenness of trying to accuse those who seek the Stone for making silver and gold of being all sorts of "bad" things. Your very own posts above detailing your daily "activities" make you look like the greedy, cheap, manipulative, seedy fellow that you try to accuse others to be. Not saying that you actually are those things, just saying that that is what your very own posts above make you look like, which is funny since you try to pile up such "bad" attributes onto others just because they want to transmute metals. H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S-!

elixirmixer
05-02-2017, 10:54 PM
Lol. I'm not cheap, I buy only the best things. Only organic foods. I'm just smart with the way I spend my money.

As I've said, my income for my entire life so far would maybe just cap $200,000 since I was 15 so that's 13 years... So I live off of basically $15,000 - some years $18,000 AUS per year, so if the wife the house the car the children the most epic home lab you've ever seen, seems like a greedy cheap way to live, know that I did it from pennies.

Like the true alchemist, turning nickel into gold.

An I have been a VERY generous person all my life also, so you can take another 15% of that 200,000 and throw it to the wind because that's what I do with a large portion of my cash also.

I believe in a Judgment Day JDP. I will not support pedofila as a normal part of leadership life and not will I allow 'the system' to drive me and my family into poverty just because of my awareness and lack of participation.

Had we had a righteous leadership, I would even consider my way of life immoral, nt supporting my community, but to assist them is immoral in my eyes because their ways are evil. Also, I have found other ways to assist my community, namely, free natural medicines.

And yes, if your just on the hunt for gold, your a dickhead. You don't have what it takes to make it there I'm sorry. Go back home an take up golf, you've got more chance of getting the gold by working on that swing of yours.

Four!

JDP
05-03-2017, 04:57 AM
Lol. I'm not cheap, I buy only the best things. Only organic foods. I'm just smart with the way I spend my money.

As I've said, my income for my entire life so far would maybe just cap $200,000 since I was 15 so that's 13 years... So I live off of basically $15,000 - some years $18,000 AUS per year, so if the wife the house the car the children the most epic home lab you've ever seen, seems like a greedy cheap way to live, know that I did it from pennies.

Like the true alchemist, turning nickel into gold.

An I have been a VERY generous person all my life also, so you can take another 15% of that 200,000 and throw it to the wind because that's what I do with a large portion of my cash also.

I believe in a Judgment Day JDP. I will not support pedofila as a normal part of leadership life and not will I allow 'the system' to drive me and my family into poverty just because of my awareness and lack of participation.

Had we had a righteous leadership, I would even consider my way of life immoral, nt supporting my community, but to assist them is immoral in my eyes because their ways are evil. Also, I have found other ways to assist my community, namely, free natural medicines.

And yes, if your just on the hunt for gold, your a dickhead. You don't have what it takes to make it there I'm sorry. Go back home an take up golf, you've got more chance of getting the gold by working on that swing of yours.

Four!

Let's see: you don't pay taxes, you take full advantage of social security, you charge your friends to give them rides, you scam your very same friends into repairing your car for free, you don't buy anything that is at least marked half-price, you join some groups in the hopes of getting "tax reductions" (why??? you just explained that you do NOT pay taxes anyway!)... yet you have the ballz to claim that people who want to make gold are "dickheads"??? Is your name Jimmy Swaggart by any chance?

Note for those of you who don't remember: Jimmy Swaggart was that hypocrite TV preacher who kept blasting some other celebs for being "immoral", yet he himself got caught (not once but twice!) consorting with a prostitute behind his wife's back. Ozzy Osbourne (who was frequently demonized as basically the spawn of Satan by Swaggart during the 80s) made a hilarious parody of him in the video for his song "Miracle Man", after Swaggart "got busted" and publicly confessed his "sins":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1OXAi7rNMg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j34juXrJWqw

Luxus
05-03-2017, 04:57 PM
I know people who are multimillionaires, most are not happy because they are tied up looking after everything and often thirsting for more. I know people who are broke, own nothing, struggle to pay the rent and food bills and none of these people are happy. Most of the happy people I know are in the middle and have enough not to worry about paying bills or too much that it becomes a burden.

But if you could make gold it would be very difficult to sell it. I guess you would have to melt it down and cast it into rings etc. You would have to go all over the country selling it at pawnbrokers. You couldn't sell too much to the same guy because he would wonder where the hell you were getting all this gold. I guess you could sell some on-line but then the tax man might be knocking on your door. No it would have to be for cash in hand and you would not be able to put it into the bank, I guess you could put some into the bank and say it was wages for work or services you carried out and you would have to pay tax on that.

JDP
05-03-2017, 08:55 PM
I know people who are multimillionaires, most are not happy because they are tied up looking after everything and often thirsting for more. I know people who are broke, own nothing, struggle to pay the rent and food bills and none of these people are happy. Most of the happy people I know are in the middle and have enough not to worry about paying bills or too much that it becomes a burden.

But if you could make gold it would be very difficult to sell it. I guess you would have to melt it down and cast it into rings etc. You would have to go all over the country selling it at pawnbrokers. You couldn't sell too much to the same guy because he would wonder where the hell you were getting all this gold. I guess you could sell some on-line but then the tax man might be knocking on your door. No it would have to be for cash in hand and you would not be able to put it into the bank, I guess you could put some into the bank and say it was wages for work or services you carried out and you would have to pay tax on that.

There's several ways you could do it. For example, PayPal allows you to store up to $20,000 without notifying the IRS. This "virtual money" is basically "invisible", only you and PayPal know about it, and you can spend it on whatever you need or want. If you need more than that amount at one time you can just open up more PayPal accounts and stuff them up to $20,000. As long as you don't go beyond the said amount PayPal will not notify anyone. You can also sell gold and silver for cash (this is done on a daily basis, and you do not have to cast it into rings or anything, it could just be gold/silver "shot", or "dust", or filings; prospectors sell the gold & silver they find all the time, nobody asks them questions, as long as they are not massive amounts at a single time, which would arouse suspicion) then deposit the cash in safety deposit boxes (a la Mike from Breaking Bad.)

Luxus
05-03-2017, 10:42 PM
There's several ways you could do it. For example, PayPal allows you to store up to $20,000 without notifying the IRS. This "virtual money" is basically "invisible", only you and PayPal know about it, and you can spend it on whatever you need or want. If you need more than that amount at one time you can just open up more PayPal accounts and stuff them up to $20,000. As long as you don't go beyond the said amount PayPal will not notify anyone. You can also sell gold and silver for cash (this is done on a daily basis, and you do not have to cast it into rings or anything, it could just be gold/silver "shot", or "dust", or filings; prospectors sell the gold & silver they find all the time, nobody asks them questions, as long as they are not massive amounts at a single time, which would arouse suspicion) then deposit the cash in safety deposit boxes (a la Mike from Breaking Bad.)

Gold dug out of the ground has impurity's in it. Gold produced by transmutation would be absolutely pure, purer then 24k gold produced by the mint, you would not be able to convince anyone that you dug it out of the ground. You would probably have to intentionally contaminate it with impurity's. Actually this is how some of the old alchemists got caught out, they would go to the jeweller with gold of such a purity that the jeweller knew nobody around was producing gold like it.

To open multiple paypal accounts you would need multiple addresses and identity's otherwise they would all be linked.

JDP
05-03-2017, 11:11 PM
Gold dug out of the ground has impurity's in it. Gold produced by transmutation would be absolutely pure, purer then 24k gold produced by the mint, you would not be able to convince anyone that you dug it out of the ground. You would probably have to intentionally contaminate it with impurity's. Actually this is how some of the old alchemists got caught out, they would go to the jeweller with gold of such a purity that the jeweller knew nobody around was producing gold like it.

That is an old wives' tale concocted by some writers, like "Philalethes", who were much given to charlatanry and exaggerations. Nobody would have suspected anything just because the gold or silver they sold was pure. And there is no higher gold purity than 24K gold. And yes, there is no law (at least in the United States) stopping you from purifying your own gold and silver. What you cannot do is mint coins and the like "official" things without a permit, but you can sell "unworked" gold and silver as a raw material to anyone. But if you are still afraid that selling the pure precious metals might get you in trouble, you simply can just alloy them with a base metal, or you can turn the gold and silver into compounds (like gold or silver chloride) and sell them in that form. No problem. In the late 1800s Dr. Stephen H. Emmens actually sold gold alloy ingots to the US Mint, and he openly claimed to the whole world that the gold he was selling them was ARTIFICIALLY MADE FROM SILVER through his own mechanical-chemical process, and the Mint did not care one bit where the gold was coming from, as long as their assays kept showing that the gold in the good doctor's ingots was very much real they kept on buying it!


To open multiple paypal accounts you would need multiple addresses and identity's otherwise they would all be linked.

You are allowed to have multiple PayPal accounts as long as they are different bank accounts. But if you are afraid that someone might put "two and two" together, you can always just use your relatives, friends or associates to open new PayPal accounts.

Andro
05-04-2017, 04:28 AM
You are allowed to have multiple PayPal accounts as long as they are different bank accounts. But if you are afraid that someone might put "two and two" together, you can always just use your relatives, friends or associates to open new PayPal accounts.

Apologies for the slight tangent... PayPal is constantly tightening its regulations, last time I bothered reading their updates you were only allowed to have two accounts with them, one business and one personal (I have both). There is also a vetting process, you have to upload personal ID documents, utility bills as proof of address/residence, etc...

If one has had success with Alchemy and would like to use it to make a living, I personally think it would be much more lucrative to (for example) start a "legit" supplement company with alchemically produced medicine mixed in... From what I hear, the supplement industry in the US is not (yet) as regulated as it is in Europe. Just never say the word 'Alchemy' :)

JDP
05-04-2017, 04:43 AM
Apologies for the slight tangent... PayPal is constantly tightening its regulations, last time I bothered reading their updates you were only allowed to have two accounts with them, one business and one personal (I have both). There is also a vetting process, you have to upload personal ID documents, utility bills as proof of address/residence, etc...

If one has had success with Alchemy and would like to use it to make a living, I personally think it would be much more lucrative to (for example) start a "legit" supplement company with alchemically produced medicine mixed in... From what I hear, the supplement industry in the US is not (yet) as regulated as it is in Europe. Just never say the word 'Alchemy' :)

Unless they have changed their regulations recently, that applied to one bank account only. If you have more than one bank account then you can have a pair of each PayPal accounts per each of your bank accounts. One of my relatives in fact has two totally separate PayPal accounts, one for each of her bank accounts.

But even if PayPal changed its regulations and only allowed two PayPal accounts per person (instead of per bank account), you can bypass this by letting some of your relatives, friends or business partners in into the "alchemical action". They can open the extra PayPal accounts to keep the flow of money in without having to report it to anyone (as long as you don't go beyond PayPal's limit for "balance" money for each account.)